View Full Version : AIMING IS USELESS! Tips from TGO
JTPHD
10-15-2016, 04:55 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li0rGtXh23I
The Apprentice
10-15-2016, 05:57 PM
Some food for thought there. Thanks for posting.
Hot Sauce
10-15-2016, 06:40 PM
I really wish someone had expressed this idea that the ultimate slow fire trigger pull does not necessarily carry over (or carry over fully) to your fast fire trigger pull. I really wish Rob was the one who first took me shooting.
Al T.
10-15-2016, 06:42 PM
First thing I've seen from Funker that was of interest, thanks... And very thought worthy.
Another reminder of why Robbie is the #1 technical pistol shooting instructor ever.
Makes a lot of sense, even to noobs like me.
JohnO
10-15-2016, 08:17 PM
First thing I've seen from Funker that was of interest, thanks... And very thought worthy.
Much much better than Instructor Zero.0.
Leatham is one of the best shooting instructors I've ever learned under. He did more to break me out of my self-made limitations than anyone in the last 10 years.
Beat Trash
10-15-2016, 08:29 PM
I really liked his job I'll shit approach to explaining the point he was trying to make.
BJXDS
10-15-2016, 08:39 PM
Learn to hold the gun still while jerking the trigger. I can see an advantage to DA dry fire. Sight tracking, now that's another issue.
JTPHD
10-15-2016, 08:40 PM
First thing I've seen from Funker that was of interest, thanks... And very thought worthy.
Agreed! I was honestly surprised to see Rob on the channel.
Fantastic 5 minute video. I wish I had seen this when I first started shooting.
I'm new to all this gun stuff, but could someone explain "TGO"?
Only thing I can come up with is "The Great One", but I'd be interested in the backstory.
It is definitely worth watching, though. I'm kind of glad because I do think the majority of any marginal improvement I've made in two or so years study is not to move the gun at the break.
I chalk that up to hundreds and hundreds of dry practice wall presses watching the front sight.
Looking at my targets early on, I was convinced my gun shot low and to the weak side. Same gun like a year later shot 70-80 scores on a B8 at 25 yards. :cool:
My problem these days is with my nearsightedness, I can only see the front sight clearly if I tilt my head so my bifocals come into focus. Or I use my full lens +1 safety glasses. Some days I kinda think I've reached the optical limit of my shooting ability and I am not likely to break my 25 yard high score (83-1X) anytime soon.
Anyway, good video, worth watching.
I approve this message. I've came to a similar conclusion. It's harder than it seems and at some point I think it's mentally harder than it is physically harder to do this. Dang you brain!!
David S.
10-16-2016, 08:06 AM
I'm new to all this gun stuff, but could someone explain "TGO"?
Only thing I can come up with is "The Great One", but I'd be interested in the backstory.
11166
Peally
10-16-2016, 08:36 AM
I'm getting real sick of the clickbait titles from people online.
I'm new to all this gun stuff, but could someone explain "TGO"?
Only thing I can come up with is "The Great One", but I'd be interested in the backstory.
Rob is the greatest competition shooter ever, and likely the greatest pistol shooter ever. By far the best instructor I've ever had for technical shooting. I used to joke with him that I was offering Rob Leatham classes on the east coast (back when I lived there), and people were surprised when I showed up instead of him. I learned a ton about shooting and teaching from him.
98z28
10-16-2016, 09:00 AM
Robbie laying down the truth. Awesome, awesome stuff. It's taken years to unlearn the marksmanship dogma my LE academy shoved down our thoughts. Aiming was always the priority. "Front sight, press! Front sight, press!" "You're hitting low. Stop jerking the trigger and focus on your front sight!"
If you've been through some formal training, you've probably been indoctrinated with the importance of sight alignment and sight picture ahead of all else, and then admonished with some version of the "Front sight, press!" mantra during live fire. In that same class, you were probably also shown the irrelevance of aiming with a drill where you purposefully misaligned the sights, pressed the trigger smoothly, and got acceptable hits.
So what were you supposed to learn from that combination of information? No wonder we are confused as new shooters.
Aiming is important, and it's both simple and easy. Improving trigger control will solve far more of your problems.
When I or a fellow shooter starts missing low left (for right handed shooter), it's time to remember what it feels like to "let the gun fire" instead of trying to "make it fire". Instead of yelling "front sight, press", just stop aiming. Point the gun at the berm, fire a few rounds, and observe the gun firing. Watch the casings and smoke come out. Watch the front sight move. Don't worry about where the rounds are landing. Just remember what it feels like to let the gun fire. If you're really struggling with anticipation, mix in some dummy rounds so you get a few surprise clicks.
Only after you remember how to let the gun go off should you go back to what you were working on before. Pressing the trigger without disturbing the sights has to come first. Nothing else matters if you can't do that.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
NETim
10-16-2016, 09:04 AM
Oh man! :( I'm hosed. Years of training to unlearn. Never ever considered that a nice sloooowwww press ain't the same at my operating (ahem) speed.
Damn.
blues
10-16-2016, 09:08 AM
Just watched the video. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
NETim
10-16-2016, 09:32 AM
Just watched the video. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
It does now. At least to me. I'm a little slow though. I thought that attempting to refine my nice, slow and easy trigger press in the basement against a blank wall would help get me up to speed so to speak.
Now that I see someone with the creds of TGO telling me different, I see I've been doing it wrong. :mad:
JustOneGun
10-16-2016, 10:14 AM
Robbie laying down the truth. Awesome, awesome stuff. It's taken years to unlearn the marksmanship dogma my LE academy shoved down our thoughts. Aiming was always the priority. "Front sight, press! Front sight, press!" "You're hitting low. Stop jerking the trigger and focus on your front sight!"
If you've been through some formal training, you've probably been indoctrinated with the importance of sight alignment and sight picture ahead of all else, and then admonished with some version of the "Front sight, press!" mantra during live fire. In that same class, you were probably also shown the irrelevance of aiming with a drill where you purposefully misaligned the sights, pressed the trigger smoothly, and got acceptable hits.
So what were you supposed to learn from that combination of information? No wonder we are confused as new shooters.
Aiming is important, and it's both simple and easy. Improving trigger control will solve far more of your problems.
When I or a fellow shooter starts missing low left (for right handed shooter), it's time to remember what it feels like to "let the gun fire" instead of trying to "make it fire". Instead of yelling "front sight, press", just stop aiming. Point the gun at the berm, fire a few rounds, and observe the gun firing. Watch the casings and smoke come out. Watch the front sight move. Don't worry about where the rounds are landing. Just remember what it feels like to let the gun fire. If you're really struggling with anticipation, mix in some dummy rounds so you get a few surprise clicks.
Only after you remember how to let the gun go off should you go back to what you were working on before. Pressing the trigger without disturbing the sights has to come first. Nothing else matters if you can't do that.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
IMO what you quoted from your formal training is saying the same thing as TGO, just paraphrased. The only difference is that he does not use a target at first. This is also a very well known technique. Having more than one way to explain the same thing is great. Some people get one and or the other.
Your concern seems to be similar to the old pull the whole trigger or take up the slack and then pull the trigger. I've taught people both ways. I've also had people taught each way come back and say it finally clicked when they tried it the other way. Go figure. Different things work with different people... but
I tell people the same thing when it comes to isolating the trigger, that "ah-hah" moment when everything clicks often comes when the grip gets locked in. The actual "ah-hah" is that trigger control at competition speed has more to do with grip than what method you learned to press the trigger. Fix or perfect the grip and the trigger control is easy to master.
JustOneGun
10-16-2016, 10:23 AM
It does now. At least to me. I'm a little slow though. I thought that attempting to refine my nice, slow and easy trigger press in the basement against a blank wall would help get me up to speed so to speak.
Now that I see someone with the creds of TGO telling me different, I see I've been doing it wrong. :mad:
I don't think starting with 25 yard bullseye translates well when learning to shoot. You are correct. But I have found what you describe is fantastic in small doses as a good shooter. Also, I will mix up my live fire from close in to far away.
To me, just firing fast is like when first learning to shoot faster. The speed often gets faster and faster as the string goes on. When starting to miss I would then just keep firing and missing. There was no regulation ability. Now that I can shoot fast I mix it up and it seems to work well for my trigger control.
I have done six days with Robbie in the last two years.
Until you can press the trigger back without disturbing the sights, many of the things we focus on like what sights to use, target vs front sight focus, and shot calling don't mean much. Once you can press the trigger without disturbing the sights, all those visual things become very important.
Clobbersaurus
10-16-2016, 11:55 AM
I'm getting real sick of the clickbait titles from people online.
This. Video content was great, typical Funker Tactical click bait title..... not so much.
But I guess if it gets new shooters to consider the content then......[swallows bile].........okay.
98z28
10-16-2016, 12:33 PM
IMO what you quoted from your formal training is saying the same thing as TGO, just paraphrased. The only difference is that he does not use a target at first. This is also a very well known technique. Having more than one way to explain the same thing is great. Some people get one and or the other.
Your concern seems to be similar to the old pull the whole trigger or take up the slack and then pull the trigger. I've taught people both ways. I've also had people taught each way come back and say it finally clicked when they tried it the other way. Go figure. Different things work with different people... but
I tell people the same thing when it comes to isolating the trigger, that "ah-hah" moment when everything clicks often comes when the grip gets locked in. The actual "ah-hah" is that trigger control at competition speed has more to do with grip than what method you learned to press the trigger. Fix or perfect the grip and the trigger control is easy to master.
I think we're in agreement and I just didn't express it well. We were admonished to aim harder, while only paying lip service to trigger control. All the right words were there, but the emphasis was in the wrong place for a bunch of rookies. GJM just summarized it well. You have to learn to press the trigger first. Aiming doesn't matter until you can fire the shot without disturbing the the gun. Once you can do that, all the visual stuff becomes important.
Wayne Dobbs
10-17-2016, 10:25 AM
I have done six days with Robbie in the last two years.
Until you can press the trigger back without disturbing the sights, many of the things we focus on like what sights to use, target vs front sight focus, and shot calling don't mean much. Once you can press the trigger without disturbing the sights, all those visual things become very important.
Everybody except GJM and I can eat your hearts out, because I'm spending three days with Rob next week. Really looking forward to what I can learn from him!
Everybody except GJM and I can eat your hearts out, because I'm spending three days with Rob next week. Really looking forward to what I can learn from him!
If it is anything like my experience, you will be awed by his technical shooting diagnostic ability. No lesson plan typically, just has you stand and shoot some rounds, and starts making adjustments as necessary. Say hi from Charlie, Astro and me!
Mr_White
10-17-2016, 11:07 AM
Awesome video.
Until you can press the trigger back without disturbing the sights, many of the things we focus on like what sights to use, target vs front sight focus, and shot calling don't mean much. Once you can press the trigger without disturbing the sights, all those visual things become very important.
Great summary!
Wotan
10-17-2016, 05:14 PM
Precisely. Almost exactly how Chris Sajnog teaches his 'New Rules of Marksmanship' as well:
1. Shooting platform
2. Grip
3. Sight picture
4. Sight refinement
5. Focused breathing
5. Trigger control
7. Follow-through
Sajnog, Chris (2015-09-10). Navy SEAL Shooting (Kindle Locations 1538-1542). Center Mass Group, LLC. (http://amzn.to/2ekTmkR (https://www.amazon.com/dp/194378700X/))
Dry firing is a huge tool in the shooter's arsenal! I practice dry weapon manipulation daily, and 'exercise' my hands for grip strength (http://amzn.to/2ejjzPr (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007A1C4Q/) and http://amzn.to/2dYq3sG (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000W1A83G/)) - I even sometimes just 'exercise my trigger finger to make sure when I squeeze the trigger, only the first two segments move...
Dr. No
10-17-2016, 08:26 PM
Everybody except GJM and I can eat your hearts out, because I'm spending three days with Rob next week. Really looking forward to what I can learn from him!
Just remember, whenever he asks a question on why he can do something, the answer is always "Because you're awesome!" :)
JustOneGun
10-17-2016, 09:34 PM
If it is anything like my experience, you will be awed by his technical shooting diagnostic ability. No lesson plan typically, just has you stand and shoot some rounds, and starts making adjustments as necessary. Say hi from Charlie, Astro and me!
I've never been to TGO's training. Your description sounds like instructor bliss. Whether novice or seasoned, having someone with the knowledge to suggest slight adjustments to a grip, trigger mainpulation, etc is more important than hours of practice or "Tactical" training. Man, I need to start saving up my money. It's been too long since I've taken the time to actually learn something and get better. LOL! And me being in Arizona... well that's just a natural fit. Now to just get it approved by the command staff. And by command staff I mean, the wife.
Precisely. Almost exactly how Chris Sajnog teaches his 'New Rules of Marksmanship' as well:
1. Shooting platform
2. Grip
3. Sight picture
4. Sight refinement
5. Focused breathing
5. Trigger control
7. Follow-through
Sajnog, Chris (2015-09-10). Navy SEAL Shooting (Kindle Locations 1538-1542). Center Mass Group, LLC. (http://amzn.to/2ekTmkR (https://www.amazon.com/dp/194378700X/))
Dry firing is a huge tool in the shooter's arsenal! I practice dry weapon manipulation daily, and 'exercise' my hands for grip strength (http://amzn.to/2ejjzPr (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007A1C4Q/) and http://amzn.to/2dYq3sG (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000W1A83G/)) - I even sometimes just 'exercise my trigger finger to make sure when I squeeze the trigger, only the first two segments move..
Point of order. TGO does not teach like anyone else.
Other people teach like TGO
:)
I'm new to all this gun stuff, but could someone explain "TGO"?
Only thing I can come up with is "The Great One", but I'd be interested in the backstory.
Rob Leatham. He was named that by his friend Brian Enos. http://robleatham.com/champion
Failure2Stop
10-18-2016, 07:45 AM
Needs a new title.
randyflycaster
10-18-2016, 09:29 AM
But he doesn't explain how to execute a proper trigger pull, or how to grip the gun (front to back or side to side).
It seems that whatever I do I'm pulling my shots to the right. (I'm left-handed.) Very, very frustrating. When I dry fire everything looks
good as far as I can tell, then I go to the range and .... BTW, I've read 4 books on pistol marksmanship.
Randy
JustOneGun
10-18-2016, 09:45 AM
But he doesn't explain how to execute a proper trigger pull, or how to grip the gun (front to back or side to side).
It seems that whatever I do I'm pulling my shots to the right. (I'm left-handed.) Very, very frustrating. When I dry fire everything looks
good as far as I can tell, then I go to the range and .... BTW, I've read 4 books on pistol marksmanship.
Randy
I'm not sure who you were referring to. Are you saying that TGO's classes don't discuss grip and trigger pull?
It seems that whatever I do I'm pulling my shots to the right. (I'm left-handed.) Very, very frustrating...
I get this. It's pretty much the title of my training log. :cool:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?12492-Coach-why-do-I-shoot-low-and-right-(lefty)-training-journal
There are a lot of experts on the forum (I am not one) who can help diagnose this; but it is tough to do it remotely via the internet. Can you get local training?
Anyway, starting a training journal here is a good way to begin the process.
Jason Burton
10-18-2016, 10:09 AM
Rob is the greatest competition shooter ever, and likely the greatest pistol shooter ever. By far the best instructor I've ever had for technical shooting.
I could not agree more. No one person has done more to help my progression as a shooter than Rob.
I could not agree more. No one person has done more to help my progression as a shooter than Rob.
Nice to see you!
Never thought about taking a class with Rob before, mostly because his name hasn't come up as a trainer in the past, but it sounds like it might be a worthwhile investment in skill development. Does he have a 2017 schedule posted yet? I tried going to his site and had trouble navigating the calendar.
psalms144.1
10-18-2016, 10:57 AM
But he doesn't explain how to execute a proper trigger pull, or how to grip the gun (front to back or side to side).
It seems that whatever I do I'm pulling my shots to the right. (I'm left-handed.) Very, very frustrating. When I dry fire everything looks
good as far as I can tell, then I go to the range and .... BTW, I've read 4 books on pistol marksmanship.
RandyRandy - frequently when I see shooters with issues in live fire that don't show in dry fire it comes from them subconsciously "cheating" in dry fire. When you're dry firing, you KNOW there's not going to be any report, or flash, or recoil to control, so, frequently shooters grips tend to be quite a bit different from what they are in live fire.
Not saying that is what's happening for you, and, while I applaud your efforts to self-diagnose through reading, NOTHING replaces on-site, hands-on instruction/correction/coaching. Anything any of us tells you on this site is, unfortunately, at best an educated guess. Additionally, some books on pistol marksmanship are "mo' bettah" than others, and/or more applicable to certain disciplines (bullseye or action shooting, for intstance) than others.
But he doesn't explain how to execute a proper trigger pull, or how to grip the gun (front to back or side to side).
It seems that whatever I do I'm pulling my shots to the right. (I'm left-handed.) Very, very frustrating. When I dry fire everything looks
good as far as I can tell, then I go to the range and .... BTW, I've read 4 books on pistol marksmanship.
Randy
I'm not sure who you were referring to. Are you saying that TGO's classes don't discuss grip and trigger pull?
Never thought about taking a class with Rob before, mostly because his name hasn't come up as a trainer in the past, but it sounds like it might be a worthwhile investment in skill development. Does he have a 2017 schedule posted yet? I tried going to his site and had trouble navigating the calendar.
Here is the deal. Besides being TGO, and deservedly called that, and the best technical shooting instructor I have experienced, and a long time top competitor, and extremely fun for me to be around, Robbie is impatient, brusque, opinionated and pretty much a 50 something year old teenager. Robbie does not do basic instruction. His wife, Kip, is much more patient and thoughtful, and would do a better job with basic instruction. Robbie is there to provide that razor sharp insight to bring your skills to the next level, not to build all your skills.
It is wicked hard to get with him, and you pretty much beg Kip, and even that is not always successful. I only trained once with him last year, and wish I had two more days.
randyflycaster
10-18-2016, 06:09 PM
I would love to take a class with Rob or any other successful competition shooter. I'll check and see if Rob is coming to Missoula.
I stopped going to the shooting range because I felt I was spending a lot of money on ammo and getting the same results.
Randy
Couldn't agree more. Trigger control and I like to add in grip control as they are often tied to one another, are the keys to marksmanship. It should be obvious that keeping the gun in alignment before, during and after ignition is more important than understanding sight picture and alignment and then screwing that up when the gun goes bang. Unfortunately many don't get that until they have already had some bad programming, which is often due to poor instruction and / or being introduced to live fire much too quickly in the initial learning phases. Pretty much what Robbie is saying here.
I have taken some heat in the past when I say that I have more than one trigger pull type, more than one draw type, more than one way to aim (focal point). The man with only one gun, draw the same every time, pull the trigger the same every time. Don't you know that Hicks Law says you will die a horrible death in the streets if you don't keep it simple stupid and do the same thing every time. All that BS.
Many shooters or even instructors don't understand priorities of shooting, or when to apply certain techniques to certain styles of shooting. IMO too many people are also far too rigid on executing things the exact same way no matter what type of shooting they are doing. I agree that trigger control and consistent grip are higher priorities than "aiming" as he states. We should all take a good example from Robbie on this one.
However not everything is understood or taken in correct context from clips on the internet. Using Robbie as an example I often hear people say, well TGO says to just jerk the trigger without disrupting the sights. Many who hear Robbie say that take it literally without context or full explanation of what he is trying to accomplish. He and other great shooters make almost instinctive adjustments to their shooting situation without conscious thought and IMO it goes beyond unconscious competence. The problem is that we are not all TGO, so be sure to understand the full context of the message and the shooting situation.
While I have talked with Robbie a couple of times here and there, I have never had the opportunity to shoot and learn from him in person. While I will shoot and train with about anyone if it is easily accomplished, but if I am going to put out time, effort and money, my list of who I want to train with is short. Robbie Leatham is definitely on that "shortlist".
Here is something I wrote about two years ago on my first experience with Robbie:
https://pistol-forum.com/archive/index.php/t-14321.html
Robbie does not do basic instruction. His wife, Kip, is much more patient and thoughtful, and would do a better job with basic instruction. Robbie is there to provide that razor sharp insight to bring your skills to the next level, not to build all your skills.
Would you normally recommend M or GM level technical abilities before taking a class with Robbie? For someone that isn't there yet, which instructors would you recommend to improve technical shooting? I haven't had that type of instruction before and I think it would be beneficial to get some formal instruction at some point.
Rex G
10-18-2016, 08:20 PM
But he doesn't explain how to execute a proper trigger pull, or how to grip the gun (front to back or side to side).
It seems that whatever I do I'm pulling my shots to the right. (I'm left-handed.) Very, very frustrating. When I dry fire everything looks
good as far as I can tell, then I go to the range and .... BTW, I've read 4 books on pistol marksmanship.
Randy
As at least one reply has already indicated, it is almost impossible to diagnose such things over the internet, but, I will say one thing: You may not be "pulling" your shots; you may be, instead, pushing your gun. Pushing may be done as an unconscious attempt to counteract recoil. This is just a thought, not a diagnosis.
On the original topic, well, yes, I agree; it is not jerking the trigger that causes a miss; jerking the whole gun causes the miss. This was certainly a different way to phrase everything, but it makes sense.
Would you normally recommend M or GM level technical abilities before taking a class with Robbie? .
Hell no. I don't remember if I even made a B class by the time I joined Mr. and Mrs. GJM for a three on one class with TGO.
It is a subtle shit. You ask me what I learned from that, I'll mostly remember things that sounded controversial to me. 'Cause that's the stuff that you hear and go like "huh, is he effin with me or I am not just there yet?". I don't remember any technical advice given to me (except for "faster!!") but I remember ideas and thought provoking things. I don't remember much of technical advice to GJM too. You don't necessarily expect to hear a ground breaking stuff even if you're a B class. He looked at my misses at some point and said good, those are good misses. If you realize how valuable that comment is, you will realize the benefits of training with Robbie.
I would love to take a class with Rob or any other successful competition shooter. I'll check and see if Rob is coming to Missoula.
I stopped going to the shooting range because I felt I was spending a lot of money on ammo and getting the same results.
Randy
You may find that even taking a class won't help. They can tell you how to, but that's already in the books you read. Almost all of these dudes figured out by themselves how to press the trigger straight back without disturbing the sites. You may have to get there yourself. I actually think most people do.
You say you dry fire. Go and dry fire pulling the trigger back as hard and as fast as you can and see what front sight does. If it moves to the side, figure out what you need to do to not let that happen. I don't speak for Robbie but I guarantee he would approve this message.
98z28
10-18-2016, 09:14 PM
But he doesn't explain how to execute a proper trigger pull, or how to grip the gun (front to back or side to side).
It seems that whatever I do I'm pulling my shots to the right. (I'm left-handed.) Very, very frustrating. When I dry fire everything looks
good as far as I can tell, then I go to the range and .... BTW, I've read 4 books on pistol marksmanship.
Randy
Just right, or low and right? If it's just right, are you shooting a Glock?
The reason to pay Robbie a lot of money is so he can teach you things other instructors can not, not to teach you what other instructors can.
Exurbankevin
10-19-2016, 08:12 AM
Would you normally recommend M or GM level technical abilities before taking a class with Robbie? For someone that isn't there yet, which instructors would you recommend to improve technical shooting? I haven't had that type of instruction before and I think it would be beneficial to get some formal instruction at some point.
Rob's instruction is great for anyone C Class and above. He's particularly good at taking the stuff in Brian Eno's book and translating it for the range.
randyflycaster
10-19-2016, 08:54 AM
Yes, I'm shooting a Glock. At first my shots were going low and to the right. (I'm left handed.) Now they are mostly going to the right, at about 3 o'clock.
Randy
Don't go to Robbie if you can't press the trigger without disturbing the sights. Neither of you will likely enjoy the experience. There are many good instructors that can help with the trigger part.
98z28
10-19-2016, 12:01 PM
Yes, I'm shooting a Glock. At first my shots were going low and to the right. (I'm left handed.) Now they are mostly going to the right, at about 3 o'clock.
Randy
Hitting to the off side is common with Glocks. One possible cause is the trigger finger contacting the frame during the trigger press and pushing the gun to the off side (left for right handed shooters and right for left handed shooters). The trigger guard is so tight on a Glock that it's challenging to use enough trigger finger without contacting the frame. It often won't show up in dry fire. You can only press the trigger one time before breaking your grip to rack the slide. This gives you a chance to slow down and be aware of your grip and trigger manipulation for each shot. There is no such restriction in live fire.
Try putting a rubber band, zip tie, or target pasty folded in half between the chamber end of the barrel and the breech face of slide. You want to hold the slide just far enough out of battery to keep the trigger bar from engaging the sear. Here's a link with a more detailed description and a picture: https://www.dillonprecision.com/docs/aug_09_p42_glock_dry.pdf.
Once you can press the trigger repeatedly without racking the slide, dry running through some dry fire drills that mimic your live fire drills. Grip the gun tight as you would if it were actually firing and move the trigger with the same energy you wold in live fire. You'll likely find your trigger finger contacting the frame and may start seeing your sight push off to the right.
You can see the same effect if you take the slide off of the frame and try making repeated trigger presses strong hand only while aiming just the frame. The trigger will be dead, so you'll need to simulate your trigger pull on that dead trigger. You'll see how easy it is to push the gun to your off side.
I've been taught two ways to deal with this, and both have worked for me and other shooters.
1. Use more trigger finger. Sink your trigger finger all the way in so that the inside of the first joint is contacting the opposite edge of the trigger (the front-right corner of the trigger for a left handed shooter). Now you'll tend to exert leftward pressure as you pull the trigger, which will counteract the rightward pressure you're putting on the frame (assuming a left handed shooter). That's a lot of variables to balance out, but I've used it and seen others use it successfully.
2. Use less trigger finger and be very careful not to contact the frame with any part of your trigger finger. In theory, this is the more reliable method. Which one works better for you will be a function of how your hands interact with the Glock frame and how much effort you're willing to put in learning a new trigger press (option #2 will be harder to learn if you have large hands).
As others have said, this a wild guess since I can't observe you shooting. It's common enough to be worth mentioning though.
98z28
10-19-2016, 01:15 PM
It'd also shoot the gun from a rest and have another known-good shooter shoot the gun for groups to make sure the sights aren't just off...
Failure2Stop
10-19-2016, 01:32 PM
The reason to pay Robbie a lot of money is so he can teach you things other instructors can not, not to teach you what other instructors can.
Well said.
Dallasmed
10-19-2016, 01:53 PM
I'll be at the class next week as well. Hopefully I can throw some of my thoughts up here after I finish the class.
Yes, I'm shooting a Glock. At first my shots were going low and to the right. (I'm left handed.) Now they are mostly going to the right, at about 3 o'clock.
Randy
By the sounds of things , before you go on the hunt for cool guy training. First find a local instructor who can help you work on and clean up your fundamentals. This will make the cool guy stuff much more worthwhile.
randyflycaster
10-20-2016, 08:45 AM
Folks,
Thanks for the replies. I am definitely not placing my finger trigger on the frame. I will try putting my trigger finger on the outside edge of the trigger.
I'm reading Chris Sajnog's book. He has a different take on grip pressure. He advocates very strong and equal pressure with both hands - not 60/40 - and putting that pressure side to side. I always thought that with a Glock the shooting hand should apply pressure front to back. Sajnog, in my opinion, doesn't fully explain how to execute a straight-back trigger pull. He seems to think that a proper grip will solve trigger pull problems.
(I still wonder why Albert League advocates a light pistol grip. He seems to be the only one.)
I guess for me there is no easy solution. I wouldn't mind going to the range and live firing, except that it gets so expensive.
Randy
Peally
10-20-2016, 09:02 AM
Practice is the only way you'll really iron those things out. Don't overthink it, you're just squeezing a chunk of plastic and pushing a little lever with your finger.
wrmettler
10-20-2016, 12:31 PM
I'm a lefty, and switched to Glock a few years ago. I shot consistently right with good groups. Really problematic, because I could shot center of target with 1911s and Sigs.
I wondered why.
So, I research my few areas of expertise on this issue.
Pistol-Forum was my first research stop.
I found Surf. To my mind, he explains exactly why the Glock shoots right or left.
Go here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15459-Glock-Stuff
The third video is the video to watch and the good info starts about 16 min.
Surf has other videos on the subject as well.
Surf cured my issue.
Also there is a Pat McNamara video floating around here somewhere where he says that he cured his problem with more finger on the trigger.
John Hearne
10-23-2016, 09:06 PM
They say that the best way to learn something new is to read an old book. I'm working on Askins' "The Art of Pistol Shooting" which was originally published in 1939. How does he recommend teaching trigger control?
"During the first week of snapping practice no attempt should be made to aim the revolver. Simply hold the weapon in firing position, and under the vigilant eye of a coach, squeeze the trigger. Continue the snapping practice for fifteens minutes every day. After a week of concentration on the trigger pull, setup a target…"
In other words, after almost two hours of learning to manipulate the trigger without disturbing the sights, then you add a target and a generous one at that.
Just got a nice text from Robbie saying how much he enjoyed Wayne in class.
Wayne Dobbs
10-31-2016, 08:10 AM
Just got a nice text from Robbie saying how much he enjoyed Wayne in class.
I had a blast in the class! Rob is a great teacher (not instructor, but a teacher) of the pistol and is funny and very approachable. He loves to blow up all the conventions of the pistol and its training and get down to what really works. I walked away with some different methods and ways to do old methods better. Great class!
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