A small slice of Correct Vehicle Tactics

[SLG]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YENzsMCSYcw


Some of you probably already saw this, but I just found it. I don't know Shrek, but everything he talks about in this video is stuff I learned over 20 years ago and have been doing ever since. It is good solid stuff, grounded in reality. I was particularly happy to see him talk about the seatbelt. WAY too many cops and jr. commandos seem to get it backwards. Enjoy.

[EVP]

Nice! Thanks for sharing it.

[El Cid]

Good stuff!

As a side note, I don't see ear pro - his hearing must already be toast from his career. I've shot inside a car with ear pro and it was less than comfortable.

[Le Français]

He did a good job concisely explaining why carrying a gun under your leg while driving is dumb. Not only will it fly around in a serious crash, but it can also slide onto the floor and behind a pedal and impede your ability to brake or accelerate.

[Dagga Boy]

He did a good job concisely explaining why carrying a gun under your leg while driving is dumb. Not only will it fly around in a serious crash, but it can also slide onto the floor and behind a pedal and impede your ability to brake or accelerate.

I drive with a gun under my leg all the time.....key being "a" gun, not my primary that remains holstered. My entire cop career I always had access to a pistol (and usually a hig capacity 9mm) in the car that was my go to for in vehicle contacts and a primary if in a rolling fight, which left my primary holstered pistol secure for a later debark if needed.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Like DB noted, "a" gun under the leg is fine (another thing I got from guys at that Metro police dept), not "the" gun.

While he showed a wee bit different way on handling the seatbelt, the important part was that he strongly encouraged the use of the seatbelt. Solid video, good info. Thanks SLG.

[Le Français]

I drive with a gun under my leg all the time.....key being "a" gun, not my primary that remains holstered. My entire cop career I always had access to a pistol (and usually a hig capacity 9mm) in the car that was my go to for in vehicle contacts and a primary if in a rolling fight, which left my primary holstered pistol secure for a later debark if needed.
What happened to that pistol when you had to leave the car quickly and unexpectedly?

What about the gun sliding/flying around in a crash? Were you ever in a big rollover wreck? Things inside the car tend to end up in odd places, and I'd wager that the likelihood of a crash is greater than the need for a separate gun as you describe.

[TheNewbie]

I met McPhee at a gun store, seemed like a nice guy.

I think it's all risk factors and totality of the circumstances. We know what happened to the FBI guy and hose loose gun in Miami, but if that has been just a back up and not his primary things might have been different . So while it may be foolish to carry your one gun off body , I can see Dagga's reasoning.

[Dagga Boy]

What happened to that pistol when you had to leave the car quickly and unexpectedly?

What about the gun sliding/flying around in a crash? Were you ever in a big rollover wreck? Things inside the car tend to end up in odd places, and I'd wager that the likelihood of a crash is greater than the need for a separate gun as you describe.

The amount of unknown contacts I dealt with, with that gun was far more than the wrecks. I would have been far more endangered by the flying war bag, computer installed by idiots, etc. The big crash I was in I suffered significant injury from the shotgun that stopped my head moving, so I get it, but the gun under my leg was far from an issue. I am a big believer in keeping things from between your face and the airbag......those things will ruin your day. Seat belts....total no brainer and I am, and always have been a vocal advocate, which is also why I like dedicated additional guns in the vehicle that are easily accessed without fighting the belt in high threat areas.

Like Angus, I was schooled from day one of FTO training where I worked that if anybody approached my unit to ask me anything, that discussion took place with me having a gun ready to go under the window sill. Did it likely violate a bunch of safety rules that I may not do today.....yes. Old habits die hard and often when going to crap areas I will still have a revolver under my leg.

One of the best officer involved shootings we ever had where a ton of learning occurred on a variety of subjects involved a guy who was a highly experienced Vietnam Combat vet who retired out of a high speed surveillance unit at LAPD working prison gang members and outlaw MC gangs to come to my place as a retirement job. He did a masterful Job of smoking a psychopath using his under the leg Smith &Wesson auto pistol (also his off duty) deployed from under the leg as it was far more accessible than the 6" N frame on his duty belt. Much of this comes from different experiences. I really like John McPhee (my call sign in Air Support was also Shrek....how could I not like another full size dude named Shrek). I liked the video, and the information. With that said, I was simply pointing out that here in the US of A, driving around with a carbine shoved between the seats is not common. For LE in the region I worked, a handgun under the leg was and proved to be very useful. I found it a little funny about never having an unholstered handgun in the car (and fully agree it should not be THE handgun), yet a fully "unholstered" carbine is a good idea and even had tips on how to set up that unsecured carbine.

[BehindBlueI's]

What happened to that pistol when you had to leave the car quickly and unexpectedly?

What about the gun sliding/flying around in a crash? Were you ever in a big rollover wreck? Things inside the car tend to end up in odd places, and I'd wager that the likelihood of a crash is greater than the need for a separate gun as you describe.

Rolling around the 'hood at alley creep speeds...I'd suggest the odds of a gunfight are more than a crash. There are times and areas I've driven when a gun in my hand. On the interstate? Not so much. Context is everything.

[JAD]

As a side note, I don't see ear pro.

Orange plugs, pretty deep.

[Le Français]

Thanks for the replies.

[LSP552]

Rolling around the 'hood at alley creep speeds...I'd suggest the odds of a gunfight are more than a crash. There are times and areas I've driven when a gun in my hand. On the interstate? Not so much. Context is everything.

Yep, there have been times I was very comfortable with a gun under my leg. It was never my only gun. For me, this was a very specialized thing for a specific environment and task. Low speed driving in certain areas hunting people make it a viable option, IMO.

[P210-6]

Back in the bad old days in my old stomping grounds cops used what is now known as a "Kingston" holster. They screwed a holster to the center of the base of the seat, or off on the side, so it was always accessible. A few guys I know would move their ankle gun to that holster.

[jlw]

One of our SGT's has a training company and also hosts classes. He is hosting Shrek in March of 2017 for a vehicle tactics course. Info and registration is here (https://www.sobmanswag.com/collections/athens-ga-2017/products/athens-ga-2-day-vehicle-tactics-course-video-diagnostics-march-4-5-2017).

I am not involved in setting up this class. You can contact the course organizer here (http://www.sparrowdefense.com/) with any questions related to the class.

[Lost River]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YENzsMCSYcw


Some of you probably already saw this, but I just found it. I don't know Shrek, but everything he talks about in this video is stuff I learned over 20 years ago and have been doing ever since. It is good solid stuff, grounded in reality. I was particularly happy to see him talk about the seatbelt. WAY too many cops and jr. commandos seem to get it backwards. Enjoy.

Spot on.

I have done a good bit of vehicle based stuff, for working oconus, and the basic concepts here are on the money. Plus, until guys have been rammed at high speed, or intentionally rammed vehicles to break contact on ambushes, they really have no clue how much stuff flies around inside of vehicles. This includes fire extinguishers, ammo cans, radios, etc, etc. There is good reason why the smarter outfits strap down literally every can, tire, etc, so as to prevent unnecessary injuries from these flying objects.

[11B10]

[QUOTE=TheNewbie;512323]I met McPhee at a gun store, seemed like a nice guy.

I think it's all risk factors and totality of the circumstances. We know what happened to the FBI guy and hose loose gun in Miami, but if that has been just a back up and not his primary things might have been different . So while it may be foolish to carry your one gun off body , I can see Dagga's point





Post deleted

[Hambo]

What about the gun sliding/flying around in a crash? Were you ever in a big rollover wreck? Things inside the car tend to end up in odd places, and I'd wager that the likelihood of a crash is greater than the need for a separate gun as you describe.

Yes, I've been in a rollover wreck. The vehicle did 1 1/4 turns and landed on the passenger side with me hanging in the seat belt. A handgun under my leg would have been MIA, but so would McPhee's unsecured carbine. Your point is taken, but there are times you want a gun in hand or as close as possible. The compromise is to carry one gun AIWB.

[SLG]

For me, the gun under the leg is undesirable. I get why others would choose to use it under limited circumstances and don't disagree.

The issue for me is not a rollover wreck so much, but a much more common emergency braking issue, with or without an impact at the same time. If the gun is your primary, then you likely have no gun. Even if it is not your primary, as has been mentioned here before, I don't want the gun ending up under the pedal and causing more issues. The carbine will not do that ime.

Since I carry AIWB, gun access really isn't an issue for me. Even when I carried strongside, I had a fast, albeit fairly well telegraphed draw.

[TGS]

I don't understand why anyone is bringing up the carbine being unsecured.

We take measures to improve safety and minimize risk; safety and risk are not dealt with in absolutes. There is no other choice for the carbine in the context of protection work, or low-vis work in general; there are no currently offered gun racks which are appropriate for the context that Shrek is addressing here.

This is not a legitimate excuse to say, "whatever, you ride around with your carbine stuffed by the seat so that means it's okay for me to stuff a pistol under my leg." The former we don't have an option...the latter is just you making a decision.

[RJ]

Thank you SLG for posting. Very informative.

I was kind of not prepared for Mr. McPhee to actually SHOOT THROUGH the windscreen. I was thinking it was his own vehicle and it was a passive demo of technique...so, wow. :)

Two immediate takeaways:

- Wear your seatbelt
- Shoot to the target - ignore deflection

[NEPAKevin]

Years ago, one of the guys I worked with was buddies with a LEO who was of the old school variety and one day when they were BSing and the subject of car guns came up. His thing was when ever he got a car assigned to him, he would take out his knife, and slice a slit in the seat into the foam where it would be convenient to reach and that was where he kept his back up car gun. The punch line was that he never told anyone else he did this or why and his Sargent and the Chief were always wondering why the cars were getting holes in the driver's seat below and slight to the side of the crotchal area.

[Paul Sharp]

Circumstances dictate tactics, tactics dictate technique.

In the LE world as well as solo surveillance/ep advanced observer stuff where you're driving slowly through rougher areas the secondary/tertiary pistol under the leg has long been acceptable practice for good reason.

The material John is showing in this clip is a different application of similar material however the circumstances are different. For this context, this is exactly how we were taught to stow the rifle when driving. In the surveillance and protection side of the things the drivers job is to drive. Everyone else handles their sector so the driver has no other responsibility as driving is the most proactive thing you can do to deal with an immediate threat. Stowing the rifle that manner won't cause the rifle to end up under your feet in a collision resulting from evasive actions. If the rifle does come loose it usually just moves forward against the base of the center console or up against the firewall. With the butt wedged between the seat and console the rifle can only move forward or backward in a straight line so it never gets near the pedals. A rollover? The rifle under your feet is the least of your worries.

The sling work as he unasses the car is pretty slick and I like that. I've always used Bennie Cooley's trick of rubber banding the sling to the rifle. You can still use the rifle to fight if needed and a quick snatch of the sling pops the rubber band off so you can sling up as needed.


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[Shellback]

The sling work as he unasses the car is pretty slick and I like that. I've always used Bennie Cooley's trick of rubber banding the sling to the rifle. You can still use the rifle to fight if needed and a quick snatch of the sling pops the rubber band off so you can sling up as needed.

Does it make more sense to sling the rifle prior to unbuckling or after? I'm thinking unbuckle first, and then sling the weapon, to help reduce the amount of possible entanglements.

[Dagga Boy]

Circumstances dictate tactics, tactics dictate technique.

In the LE world as well as solo surveillance/ep advanced observer stuff where you're driving slowly through rougher areas the secondary/tertiary pistol under the leg has long been acceptable practice for good reason.

The material John is showing in this clip is a different application of similar material however the circumstances are different. For this context, this is exactly how we were taught to stow the rifle when driving. In the surveillance and protection side of the things the drivers job is to drive. Everyone else handles their sector so the driver has no other responsibility as driving is the most proactive thing you can do to deal with an immediate threat. Stowing the rifle that manner won't cause the rifle to end up under your feet in a collision resulting from evasive actions. If the rifle does come loose it usually just moves forward against the base of the center console or up against the firewall. With the butt wedged between the seat and console the rifle can only move forward or backward in a straight line so it never gets near the pedals. A rollover? The rifle under your feet is the least of your worries.

The sling work as he unasses the car is pretty slick and I like that. I've always used Bennie Cooley's trick of rubber banding the sling to the rifle. You can still use the rifle to fight if needed and a quick snatch of the sling pops the rubber band off so you can sling up as needed.


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I agree and was simply trying to point out different context and applications. There is a bit of a disconnect sometimes about application and we tend to go with our experience and what has worked. As a cop, spent a ton of time talking to people at the window of my car....often gang member assholes in alleys and small streets (yea, I know....."I would never let anyone near my car".....okay, then you never got good info or the pulse of your beat). As a protection agent and working witness protection, I rode around with a Steyr AUG stowed exactly as dictated in the video. This included an attempted hit on our convoy during a witness movement, so I "get" that application. For a Joe Citizen driving around in a bad section of town..........I seem to think a second gun under the leg, or even better secured in an accessible vehicle mount to access the gun without any real contortions, or what is often really important, a discretionary presentation where the gun is in hand ready to go without a draw and nobody sees it. A bit different than full counter ambush, but very likely a more usable application. AGAIN, not countering "Shrek", simply adding experience that dictates that one means of in vehicle stowage is not as negative when done with a secondary gun and is very applicable based on actual real proven usage and not theory.
One of the reasons I am a big advocate of using a fanny pack is that I have very good seated access and vehicle access, where I spend a very significant amount of time. For most urban metropolitan LEO's, they spend an inordinate amount of time vehicle born in many crappy places.......like full time job numbers of hours driving around in crap. It is one area where a good tidbit of info has been gleaned from through both success and failure. Also, our undercover folks have also developed a ton of solid info for this type of work. I find it interesting that one of the most accomplished and successful LEO gunfighters of our time pretty much always had a dedicated car gun to supplement his holstered primary, often a twin. I know because I now own those guns and have had extensive conversations about their use and debriefed on how they were utilized.

[Paul Sharp]

Does it make more sense to sling the rifle prior to unbuckling or after? I'm thinking unbuckle first, and then sling the weapon, to help reduce the amount of possible entanglements.

I was taught sling after seat belt for the reason you posted. Once you're out of the seat belt the advantage to slinging up before moving out of the car is if you catch the rifle on anything like the steering wheel/dash area, you don't drop the rifle if it gets knocked out of hand. The counter argument to that is, if you get caught up on stuff on the way out, it only knocks the rifle around but it's not attached to you so your balance/movement isn't affected as much.

Like everything we do the only way to know what way works best for us is to do it. A lot. Start nice and slow, round off the edges, get the movement down then start putting it on a timer. This way we figure out which method allows us to make the transition from vehicle to feet on the ground ready to effectively fight in the least amount of time.

It's funny, I've seen this term hobbyist thrown at guys that focus on the details, putting those details in a timer, and striving to save time anywhere we can., as if it's an insult. This is something I've heard referred to, by actual professionals in the field, as "micro improvements". Guys that spend a lot of time thinking about how to efficiently move from one space to another such as; hall to room, vehicle to ground, interior to exterior. I've watched these guys focus on things like when to sling up and why. Hell, I've watched guys examine and reexamine the position of their elbows as they've worked in moving a person from the house to a vehicle. I've watched guys work for over 2 hours on moving a small group of people less than 30 feet from a building to a waiting vehicle. Hobbyist?? Poser please. That's the mark of a professional. I'm happy to see folks on this board pursuing perfection in the details. Shaving those seconds off our overall time is what gives us a little more time within the "par time" provided by the offenders. SLG, DB, and others in this thread discussing the details of context, and applications of various approaches to these circumstances IS what separates the professionals from the hobbyists. Professionals seek perfection in every aspect and understand it all matters. Hobbyists think good enough is perfect.

Well, that turned into a rant...


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[Paul Sharp]

I agree and was simply trying to point out different context and applications. There is a bit of a disconnect sometimes about application and we tend to go with our experience and what has worked. As a cop, spent a ton of time talking to people at the window of my car....often gang member assholes in alleys and small streets (yea, I know....."I would never let anyone near my car".....okay, then you never got good info or the pulse of your beat). As a protection agent and working witness protection, I rode around with a Steyr AUG stowed exactly as dictated in the video. This included an attempted hit on our convoy during a witness movement, so I "get" that application. For a Joe Citizen driving around in a bad section of town..........I seem to think a second gun under the leg, or even better secured in an accessible vehicle mount to access the gun without any real contortions, or what is often really important, a discretionary presentation where the gun is in hand ready to go without a draw and nobody sees it. A bit different than full counter ambush, but very likely a more usable application. AGAIN, not countering "Shrek", simply adding experience that dictates that one means of in vehicle stowage is not as negative when done with a secondary gun and is very applicable based on actual real proven usage and not theory.
One of the reasons I am a big advocate of using a fanny pack is that I have very good seated access and vehicle access, where I spend a very significant amount of time. For most urban metropolitan LEO's, they spend an inordinate amount of time vehicle born in many crappy places.......like full time job numbers of hours driving around in crap. It is one area where a good tidbit of info has been gleaned from through both success and failure. Also, our undercover folks have also developed a ton of solid info for this type of work. I find it interesting that one of the most accomplished and successful LEO gunfighters of our time pretty much always had a dedicated car gun to supplement his holstered primary, often a twin. I know because I now own those guns and have had extensive conversations about their use and debriefed on how they were utilized.

I'm with you dude, except for the fanny pack. I'm not retired yet. [emoji4]


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[Kimura]

Interesting thread. Hearing different approaches from people in different circumstances is always interesting for me. In a video, you have to show a technique that works/has worked for you. But I've also heard Shrek say that it isn't a cookie cutter world and different approaches to different problems are necessary. I'm obviously paraphrasing, but that's the gist.

Also, if you have questions for Shrek, he makes himself accessible to everyone via Facebook. He does a short written Q&A thing usually on Wednesday night. And does a live video hour almost every Friday. He calls it Friday Night Live and you can send him questions that he'll answer.

[SLG]

I too sling up after getting the seatbelt off. Usually only after getting out of the car as well.

Paul really hit that one out of the park. I think that there are points of diminishing returns, for professionals as well as hobbyists, but getting as good as possible at the micro stuff is what makes the macro stuff flow so well, especially under stress. It's why full time teams should be so much better than part time teams. It takes a lot of discretionary training time to really dive deep.

[Paul Sharp]

I too sling up after getting the seatbelt off. Usually only after getting out of the car as well.

Paul really hit that one out of the park. I think that there are points of diminishing returns, for professionals as well as hobbyists, but getting as good as possible at the micro stuff is what makes the macro stuff flow so well, especially under stress. It's why full time teams should be so much better than part time teams. It takes a lot of discretionary training time to really dive deep.

Thanks dude!

I sling up after getting out of the car as well. If the rifle gets hung up it's easier for me to unf*ck myself sans sling.

[blues]

It's bad enough when guys on your team aren't involved in an accident but still manage to shoot and graze themselves in the leg with their handguns while exiting a vehicle to effect a take-down on a storefront stash location.

The agent I was entering the location with and I both (wrongly) thought we were taking fire from the bad guys.

The happy ending is that the agent who shot himself transferred to another agency and got promoted to supervisor. Fu$k up and move up.

[Chuck Whitlock]

The amount of unknown contacts I dealt with, with that gun was far more than the wrecks. I would have been far more endangered by the flying war bag, computer installed by idiots, etc. The big crash I was in I suffered significant injury from the shotgun that stopped my head moving, so I get it, but the gun under my leg was far from an issue. I am a big believer in keeping things from between your face and the airbag......those things will ruin your day. Seat belts....total no brainer and I am, and always have been a vocal advocate, which is also why I like dedicated additional guns in the vehicle that are easily accessed without fighting the belt in high threat areas.

Like Angus, I was schooled from day one of FTO training where I worked that if anybody approached my unit to ask me anything, that discussion took place with me having a gun ready to go under the window sill. Did it likely violate a bunch of safety rules that I may not do today.....yes. Old habits die hard and often when going to crap areas I will still have a revolver under my leg.

One of the best officer involved shootings we ever had where a ton of learning occurred on a variety of subjects involved a guy who was a highly experienced Vietnam Combat vet who retired out of a high speed surveillance unit at LAPD working prison gang members and outlaw MC gangs to come to my place as a retirement job. He did a masterful Job of smoking a psychopath using his under the leg Smith &Wesson auto pistol (also his off duty) deployed from under the leg as it was far more accessible than the 6" N frame on his duty belt.

DB,

When rolling around with the car gun under your leg, where did it get stashed when you had to alight from the car with some quickness? I'm assuming it wasn't just left in the seat. Seems stuffing it into the war bag on the passenger seat might be slow and/or obvious.

[Dagga Boy]

DB,

When rolling around with the car gun under your leg, where did it get stashed when you had to alight from the car with some quickness? I'm assuming it wasn't just left in the seat. Seems stuffing it into the war bag on the passenger seat might be slow and/or obvious.

I kept a small canvas tool bag between the seats. If the gun was out, the bag was left open. It could be easily zippered open or closed with a long brass tab attached to the zipper handle. It was very unobtrusive and also had stuff like extra shotgun rounds and pistol magazines. If I had to abandon the car in a major incident, the small bag gave me Ammo and another gun in a very easy to grab package.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Thanks for the response.

[BehindBlueI's]

Confession time. I have left my rifle loose in the passenger seat/floor board until watching this.

I'm hanging out in a secluded area to provide backup to a covert team so I've been working with it. Even with a full length M16 and a relatively narrow car, it works. No interference with the pedals, easy to present over dash, more secure.

Thanks for posting.

[SLG]

Confession time. I have left my rifle loose in the passenger seat/floor board until watching this.

I'm hanging out in a secluded area to provide backup to a covert team so I've been working with it. Even with a full length M16 and a relatively narrow car, it works. No interference with the pedals, easy to present over dash, more secure.

Thanks for posting.

Really glad you found it useful. Shorter does tend to be easier, but as you found out, 20" is still quite manageable with good practices. I prefer a 14.5, and have to listen to guys everyday tell me how much better 11.5 is. And it can be, but...

[Malamute]

Does anyone use 20 rd mags in vehicles?

[BehindBlueI's]

Really glad you found it useful. Shorter does tend to be easier, but as you found out, 20" is still quite manageable with good practices. I prefer a 14.5, and have to listen to guys everyday tell me how much better 11.5 is. And it can be, but...

I take some crap for it, but I prefer the musket. Some of it is mission specific. I'm not a high speed door kicker going into ECQC, and in the rare instances I do have to do the low speed/medium drag version of that sort of thing, I have a shorty shotgun.

I'm generally outside providing overwatch for a GPS installation or hanging out a few blocks out of the way in case the covert surveillance needs cavalry real quick. Things like that. The short barrel doesn't seem to have much advantage in those situations.


Does anyone use 20 rd mags in vehicles?


Keeping in mind I'm new to the idea...I thought the length of the 30 round made it more stable while leaving the butt up enough for easy access to the seat belt release. I suppose this would be vehicle/gun specific, though.

[Drang]

Keeping in mind I'm new to the idea...I thought the length of the 30 round made it more stable while leaving the butt up enough for easy access to the seat belt release. I suppose this would be vehicle/gun specific, though.

Sample of one: I found 20 round mags easier to deal with in HMMWVs and M577s. Just a silly inch or two shorter, made a difference. For me.


Caveats: I don't think the fact that my experience was Army in the field not LE makes a difference. You may disagree.
OTOH, I was carrying an M16A2, not a carbine or SBR.
Also OTOH, in this case the mags were there to keep dirt out of the magwell, since by this time I was a Platoon Sergeant, First Sergeant, or staff NCO and didn't bother drawing blanks. "You there! Pretend to shoot that man!"

[Beat Trash]

I actually watched this video a few weeks ago, and I was impressed.

I was taught a long time ago that no one comes to your marked car uninvited. And to get out of the car to talk with them if possible. If not, then have a pistol pointed at them through the door. Easy to do without their noticing what's happening. On the same line of thought, there's been times when I've had the pistol tucked under the leg. I was much more comfortable with the concept when the issued gun was a DA/SA S&W 5906 or it's replacement the DAO 5946. When we transitioned to the striker fired M&P9, the first time I went to tuck the gun under my leg it made me think hard about what I was doing.

I remember one of the FBI agents during their Miami shootout with Platt and Madox in the 1980's had his pistol under his leg and lost it when the cars crashed. This has always been on my mind, and I have never found myself driving with the gun under my leg. I have driven a (slowly) with the gun in my hand.

As for the carbine, I keep my sling secured. Used to use rubber bands, then borrowed the pony tail holders form the wife and daughter. Now use a piece of purpose made elastic sold by blue force gear. I don't sling up until I clear the car as I'm usually in a hurry and there's too much crap in a police vehicle that can catch on a sling if I insecure it from the stock within the car.

The length of a non-SBR carbine makes it difficult to deploy within the car. It can be done, but even in the video, his muzzle hit the dash before he got it in place to shoot. If you have to transition form the handgun to the carbine from within the car, then things may have progressed to the point that you may have to consider bailing from the car as it may now become a bullet magnet.

All in all, I may sound like I'm being critical of this video, but I really liked the no bull shit approach applied within this video.

[SeriousStudent]

Does anyone use 20 rd mags in vehicles?

Yes.

And my AR pistol w/LAW folding stock adapter always has a Colt 20-rounder in the magwell. It's primary purpose is a traveling gun.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Does anyone use 20 rd mags in vehicles?

Yes. Given the location of the rifle rack, the depth of the seat back, and space requirements, I use 20rd magazines in the rifle. A redi-mag is on my work rifles, a 2nd 20rd magazine is in that. So I have 40rds in the gun when it comes out of the rack.

[SLG]

I use a 20 rd mag, but only because of the mount I use at work. Unsecured, like in the video, a 30 is all I will use.

[Kevin B.]

Good video that covers some generic techniques from inside a vehicle. Most of what is on the Internet is crap...


Does anyone use 20 rd mags in vehicles?

I am generally agnostic with regard to firearm capacity. Firearms that may be used to fight your way out of a vehicle are an exception. Fighting your way out of a vehicle tends to be a high round count affair. Unless a mount requires the use of a 20-, I would use a 30-round mag.

I greatly prefer a handgun with an extended magazine for fighting from inside the vehicle in most situations. Once I am outside, I transition to my rifle.

[Dagga Boy]

Good video that covers some generic techniques from inside a vehicle. Most of what is on the Internet is crap...



I am generally agnostic with regard to firearm capacity. Firearms that may be used to fight your way out of a vehicle are an exception. Fighting your way out of a vehicle tends to be a high round count affair. Unless a mount requires the use of a 20-, I would use a 30-round mag.

I greatly prefer a handgun with an extended magazine for fighting from inside the vehicle in most situations. Once I am outside, I transition to my rifle.

Weirdly.......31 round Glock mags were a normal thing in my door storage cut out. Also ran them in the fanny pack working high threat details. Sounds like you may have some tidbit of experience in working out of vehicles while getting shot at......

[Kevin B.]

Weirdly.......31 round Glock mags were a normal thing in my door storage cut out. Also ran them in the fanny pack working high threat details. Sounds like you may have some tidbit of experience in working out of vehicles while getting shot at......

A bit.

Guess what's in my car door.

[Malamute]

I keep several in my console.

Found the larger G mags fit in the older canvas and leather MP5 mag carriers if a new hole and slot is made in the strap. Theyre usually loose in the console with some standard mags though.

[blues]

I keep several in my console.

Found the larger G mags fit in the older canvas and leather MP5 mag carriers if a new hole and slot is made in the strap. Theyre usually loose in the console with some standard mags though.

Not on the job anymore so I keep one 33 rounder in the console plus whatever I'm carrying.

[SLG]

A bit.

Guess what's in my car door.

Can you expand on this a bit? I have found that I will not think to swap mags on my sidearm, so do you keep a dedicated car pistol with a big mag, or do you swap the big mag into the gun administratively when you get in the vehicle? Is it just for a reload after the normal mag? Most of the time when I've been shot at in vehicles, the shooters were too far away to make a pistol my go to choice. Overseas, not domestic. Here they tend to be closer. And they tend to run away...

A couple of weeks ago I had to draw while in the car. I had my hand on my pistol before I thought to unlock the rifle mount, which is what I did a second later and stepped out with the rifle. Much better choice for me.

[John Hearne]

Does anyone use 20 rd mags in vehicles?

Yes, have been doing so for years. My current setup has the rifle and shotgun mounted vertically between the seats but back some (no cage). I prefer to carry the rifle magazine out to protect the optic. This means that a 20 round magazine sticks forward a lot less than a 30 round. And, for general deployment from the vehicle, the 20 seems to snag on less stuff. All reloads are 30 round magazines.

[TGS]

Does anyone use 20 rd mags in vehicles?

I've shot a bit with our 20 rounders in the SMG and they "feel" handy but I did not note a problem using the 32rnd (SMG) or 30rnd (Mk18) mags in the cross-loads/bailouts I've done.

Using a 20 round would not offer any benefits if the weapon is being carried in the bags we use, either.

I wouldn't feel inclined to use a 20 round mag for my purposes.

YMMV for your purposes. If I was carrying an AR as a field gun in a domestic outdoors deal, I would probably never use anything greater than a 20 round mag, maybe even use a 10 round P-Mag for a lot. Grabbing the AR off the rack to shoot a predator vs being on the receiving end of an ambush, mission drives the gear train, that whole bit.

[Kevin B.]

Can you expand on this a bit? I have found that I will not think to swap mags on my sidearm, so do you keep a dedicated car pistol with a big mag, or do you swap the big mag into the gun administratively when you get in the vehicle? Is it just for a reload after the normal mag? Most of the time when I've been shot at in vehicles, the shooters were too far away to make a pistol my go to choice. Overseas, not domestic. Here they tend to be closer. And they tend to run away...

A couple of weeks ago I had to draw while in the car. I had my hand on my pistol before I thought to unlock the rifle mount, which is what I did a second later and stepped out with the rifle. Much better choice for me.

I spent quite a bit of time overseas in a soft-skin vehicle traveling in densely populated urban areas. Problems were likely to materialize quickly and at close range much like here in the U.S. Under those conditions, I greatly prefer the pistol. In other places, using different vehicles and/or with different threats, the pistol was of less value.

When using a pistol, my preference was something extended in the gun (G19 with a G17 mag with or without a +2; G22 with a +1 or an M-9 with a 20-rd mag), though it depended on the environment and how receptive the locals were to me being armed. I would run a standard mag if that is all I could get away with. The larger Glock mags were reserved as reloads in the vehicle. I did not swap magazines. The SOP was to reload off the car before your person, if possible.

I have done the dedicated car gun and I think there is merit to using one under certain conditions. I liked the MP-5k a lot in this role.

[SLG]

I spent quite a bit of time overseas in a soft-skin vehicle traveling in densely populated urban areas. Problems were likely to materialize quickly and at close range much like here in the U.S. Under those conditions, I greatly prefer the pistol. In other places, using different vehicles and/or with different threats, the pistol was of less value.

When using a pistol, my preference was something extended in the gun (G19 with a G17 mag with or without a +2; G22 with a +1 or an M-9 with a 20-rd mag), though it depended on the environment and how receptive the locals were to me being armed. I would run a standard mag if that is all I could get away with. The larger Glock mags were reserved as reloads in the vehicle. I did not swap magazines. The SOP was to reload off the car before your person, if possible.

I have done the dedicated car gun and I think there is merit to using one under certain conditions. I liked the MP-5k a lot in this role.

I'm tracking now, thanks very much for the explanation.

In the FWIW category, I currently run G 17, and have plus 2 mags in the vehicle as reloads, as well as a 22 rounder. When I was overseas, I usually had a Sig 229, and would run 20 round mags in the gun when it wasn't concealed. Sometimes we had G19's, and usually only had the standard mags for them. I have found the 33rnd mags to negatively affect the weapons handling, but in a car it probably wouldn't matter much. We also had the SOP to reload off the vehicle before dipping into our basic load. Even domestically, I have an M4 mag handy in the car, as well as my spare pistol mags.

[El Cid]

Agree with the sentiment about hi-cap mags inside a vehicle. This pic is from when I carried a G21. Two 13rd mags and a 28rd mag in the door pocket. I switched to 9mm a couple years ago there is now a 33rd mag in the door and 17+2 mags in the pouches.

http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/El_CidAF_ResQ/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG0155_1_zpsc9f08f59.jpg

[Chuck Haggard]

I used the Mec Gar 20 round mags as my extras when we carried the 5906 at work, they were very high quality gear.

Not a fan of the Glock 31/33 round mags, just too much of a good thing in a pistol. The G17 mags with the OEM +2 have been my go-to mags for awhile now. Testing the new MagPul 21 round mags right now, they are GTG so far.

[blues]

I used the Mec Gar 20 round mags as my extras when we carried the 5906 at work, they were very high quality gear.

Not a fan of the Glock 31/33 round mags, just too much of a good thing in a pistol. The G17 mags with the OEM +2 have been my go-to mags for awhile now. Testing the new MagPul 21 round mags right now, they are GTG so far.

I can see where they might be a liability getting them hung up or snagged but one nice aspect is that the added weight really decreases muzzle flip. (Not to imply that those in this thread have any problems with such.)

I remember when I first came upon them years ago I kiddingly mocked colleagues that used them on entries, but I never observed any issues. Inside a vehicle is of course a much tighter and constrained environment but imho still worth keeping one or more of those so called "happy sticks".

[LOKNLOD]

... but one nice aspect is that the added weight really decreases muzzle flip.

Perhaps it's a technique issue on my part, but I kind of have the opposite experience. The extra weight being hung off the butt-end of the gun with a long moment arm, and the pendulum effect seems to contribute to muzzle flip. It makes the nose feel light...like putting too much tongue weight on a trailer makes your tow vehicle light in the front.

[blues]

Perhaps it's a technique issue on my part, but I kind of have the opposite experience. The extra weight being hung off the butt-end of the gun with a long moment arm, and the pendulum effect seems to contribute to muzzle flip. It makes the nose feel light...like putting too much tongue weight on a trailer makes your tow vehicle light in the front.

Interesting. I found that rapid fire groups I shot from 15 yards and in with the 33 rounder were tighter than usual. I'll try to check it again when I'm able to resume training.

[LOKNLOD]

Interesting. I found that rapid fire groups I shot from 15 yards and in with the 33 rounder were tighter than usual. I'll try to check it again when I'm able to resume training.

I wouldn't sweat it, as I said it could have been just my technique or perception. "Results may vary". ;)