AR15 or AK47 ?

[lawnguy]

For someone who has never owned either one of these rifles,which would be the better choice and why?

[SamuelBLong]

There is no right / wrong / better choice. It's a preference and intended use kinda thing.

Both, when properly built, are lightweight, accurate and reliable rifles.

Pretty much everything you hear on reliability and lethality between the two is hype and gunshop BS.

Domestically, you're going to see way more options and aftermarket support for the AR. It comes with being the most popular type of rifle sold in the USA.


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[Casual Friday]

I own a few AR15's and one AK47. My advice would be to buy a quality AR first, buy the AK later. The AR15 is America's rifle. The lack of aftermarket goodies for AK's compared to AR's doesn't really bother me, as a sling, red dot, and a light are the only things I put on long guns, and the options for AK's seem to suit my needs. I'm not sure I'd want to have to pick a favorite between the two.

[JSGlock34]

My advice would be to buy a quality AR first, buy the AK later. The AR15 is America's rifle.

Completely agree. I'll also add that you're more likely to find quality training with the AR series. While there are certainly opportunities to learn how to run the AK, they are fewer and farther between.

[voodoo_man]

Everytime I'm asked I answer the same way.

AR15s are like exotic cars. You are going to put a good deal of research into it and want to get the best bang for buck, but within your personal taste. I just like cars the rifles need to work the way they are needed on demand and without any issues.

The more high end you go the more expensive things will get but you will get a very specialized gun, or car.

You have to figure out what you want and invest into it as much as you believe required. But understand the fact that people who know the what's and whys buy certain types of AR15s for a reason, and you'd do well to follow their lead.

[Jay Cunningham]

They're both great rifle types and they both work very well.

The AR is more "ergonomic" right out of the box, however recent developments have brought the AK to relative parity (all aftermarket).

Quality AKs are now relatively expensive as compared to a few years ago.

You'll probably wind up with both.

[SLG]

What kind of a crazy choice is that? Do you like your right hand more than your left? :-)

As others have said, AR probably makes more sense for a first purchase. Just get a good basic one, nothing too fancy, nothing home built. A simple search will reveal tons of argument on this issue.

[Kyle Reese]

What kind of a crazy choice is that? Do you like your right hand more than your left? :-)

As others have said, AR probably makes more sense for a first purchase. Just get a good basic one, nothing too fancy, nothing home built. A simple search will reveal tons of argument on this issue.

Colt 6920

[LittleLebowski]

A good or decent AR is much cheaper and easier to work on than a comparable AK. Colt 6920, BCM OEM, S&W, or Aero Precision.

[XXXsilverXXX]

I would say get the colt 6920, I picked a few up and got sold my Arsenal ak's. The Ar is more ergonmic, less recoil, flatter shooting, has more ammunition options, lots of parts available, if you plan on suppressing the Ar will be better due to a lot of Ak's with none concentric bores. Optic mounting is so much easier on the Ar... for a full kitted out Ar it will cost you a lot less then a nice Ak with everything you need, plus you'll come in 2-3 pounds less. Only negatives the Ar has over the Ak is, no folding stock... everything else about the Ar makes more sense. Especially with prices of 7.62x39 & 5.45x39 increasing, I much rather just shoot the 5.56 or 300blk or 6.8... or any of the other calibers that you can use in the Ar platform.

I say for all it's worth which is nothing. Buy the 6920, get 10 mags, 1000 rounds of 556, a aimpoint, .22lr upper, and 5000 rounds of .22lr and be set for any type of range time.

[DocGKR]

A quality AR15 (ex. Colt, FN, LMT, KAC, BCM, DD, etc...). The AR15 is highly versatile, modular, adaptable to a broad number of uses, and is relatively easy to maintain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrGL8wexJdA

[lawnguy]

Is there a really good new ar15 for around $500 ?

[Duelist]

Is there a really good new ar15 for around $500 ?

Probably not, unless you get lucky and hit a sale.

[lawnguy]

how about this? any good?
http://grabagun.com/american-tactical-imports-omni-hybrid-maxx-limited-black-300blk-16-inch-30rd-keymod-rail.html

[JAD]

Rifle shooting for most of us non-LE is a hobby. I think it's an expensive one. $1000 rifle, $800 optic, at least a grand a year in ammo and that's not taking it very seriously. AKs and ARs are both about a grand as far as I can tell.

[Kyle Reese]

http://www.mrgundealer.com/product.colt-le6920-oem1-rifle-556-oem1-le-6920-oem-1-098289020246-75-1047

[Josh Runkle]

AR vs AK: Buy whichever one you are more inclined to shoot and practice with.

I would say just buy a 10/22 so you can put a LOT of rounds down range.

[Joe in PNG]

Is there a really good new ar15 for around $500 ?

Nope. You get what you pay for.
Remember, there is a really good reason why the Colt 6920 is the standard, and why it typically cost around a $1000.
There's a lot of little details in the proper assembly of an AR-15 that the cheap guys tend to skip.
Our rifle SME's can tell many stories of cheap AR clones choking and breaking.

[Kyle Reese]

Nope. You get what you pay for.
Remember, there is a really good reason why the Colt 6920 is the standard, and why it typically cost around a $1000.
There's a lot of little details in the proper assembly of an AR-15 that the cheap guys tend to skip.
Our rifle SME's can tell many stories of cheap AR clones choking and breaking.

Buy once, cry once. Buying a cheap shit AR will inevitably result in more threads started here asking why it's non functional, etc.

[rob_s]

Is there a really good new ar15 for around $500 ?

No.

[c713d]

The fact that the description sates that it is a metal reinforce polymer lower and upper receiver is a complete no go to me. The AR was designed around aluminum receivers, and this was for a reason. The fact that it also doesn't list the type of steel for the barrel or the bolt is also a complete turn off for me. If you're looking for a .300 BO, a shorter barrel (12.5 & under) and suppressed use is what the round was designed for. Once you get to a 14.5" barrel, the short range performance is on par with 5.56, while having significantly worse perfomance at range and being more expensive. As a bottom floor for ARs, look for a Colt 6920 OEM1 or 2 and add the furniture of your choice. Or just buy a regular Colt or BCM. There are a multitude of reasons that many people recommend these manufacturers, and it starts with being a known quality with a good QC department.


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[Joe in PNG]

A buddy of mine went the DIY AR parts kit routine, and built something in 6.whatever.
Dang thing won't run a single mag without multiple jams.

And despite the talk around the gun counter, AK's can be pretty finicky as well- I had a Norinco that loved crushing cartridges.

[SAWBONES]

I own both.

Even though one of my two AK-47s (7.62x39) is a Russian milled-receiver Molot VEPR (and is accordingly the more carefully made of the two), I still consider it only a "50 yard gun", that is, its accuracy and precision are such that it shoots only about 2-3 moa at best.

My AR-15 shoots to 1-1.5 moa consistently.

Both types of rifle are easy to operate and care for.
If you will get only one rifle and you appreciate precision, get the AR.

[JSGlock34]

Is there a really good new ar15 for around $500 ?

No, there really isn't.

But $500 is certainly enough to get started. Consider buying a complete lower receiver group from a quality manufacturer. If you're open to suggestions, I'd recommend a Bravo Company Manufacturing (BCM) lower receiver. (https://dsgarms.com/bcm-lrg-stk-mod-0) For about $400, you'll have acquired the legal firearm (not a bad thing to do now considering the political climate and the history of election year panic buying), and you can purchase a matching BCM upper receiver group (https://dsgarms.com/bcm-urg-mid-16elwf-kmr-a-13) later when you have the funds. BCM is considered a top tier, quality AR15 manufacturer.

I'd spend the remaining $100 on a 10 pack of Magpul PMAG magazines (https://dsgarms.com/dsgtenpack01).

My two cents.

[Clusterfrack]

how about this? any good?
http://grabagun.com/american-tactical-imports-omni-hybrid-maxx-limited-black-300blk-16-inch-30rd-keymod-rail.html

Good example of what not to buy. I'd rather have a cheap AK than a cheap AR. Better yet, follow advice here and invest in a good AR.

[Jay Cunningham]

Colt has a "sporter" offering out now as well.

[Jay Cunningham]

Colt has a "sporter" offering out now as well.

http://www.colt.com/Catalog/Rifles/Expanse-M4

[lawnguy]

Yes Sir, I sure will.


Good example of what not to buy. I'd rather have a cheap AK than a cheap AR. Better yet, follow advice here and invest in a good AR.

[lawnguy]

Everyone has given you good advice, and I concur that a Colt 6920 (or 6720) would be the "best" thing for you to get. However, if you're not looking for something too "serious" I'd suggest a S&W M&P15 Sport II which you should be able to get for around $600:

http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?Keywords=10202&SearchType=1&NoReserve=1&BuyNowOnly=1&Condition=2&Sort=4&Tab=2

Thank you for the info!

[LittleLebowski]

Aero Precision mid length for $600 (http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/lower-receivers/ac-15-5-56x45mm-nato-16-mid-length-rifle-prod82606.aspx?avs%7cPrice_1=300xzzx00+TO+799xzzx9 9&avs%7cManufacturer_1=AERO+PRECISION)

[lawnguy]

Is it at actually cheaper to build an high quality AR15, than it is to buy an already completed rifle?



No, there really isn't.

But $500 is certainly enough to get started. Consider buying a complete lower receiver group from a quality manufacturer. If you're open to suggestions, I'd recommend a Bravo Company Manufacturing (BCM) lower receiver. (https://dsgarms.com/bcm-lrg-stk-mod-0) For about $400, you'll have acquired the legal firearm (not a bad thing to do now considering the political climate and the history of election year panic buying), and you can purchase a matching BCM upper receiver group (https://dsgarms.com/bcm-urg-mid-16elwf-kmr-a-13) later when you have the funds. BCM is considered a top tier, quality AR15 manufacturer.

I'd spend the remaining $100 on a 10 pack of Magpul PMAG magazines (https://dsgarms.com/dsgtenpack01).

My two cents.

[JSGlock34]

Is it at actually cheaper to build an high quality AR15, than it is to buy an already completed rifle?

Just to be clear, snapping together a complete lower receiver group and a complete upper receiver group isn't the same as 'building' an AR15 from a parts kit and stripped receiver. I wouldn't suggest buying a parts kit and putting the pieces together yourself. Assembling a rifle from a complete lower receiver group and a complete upper receiver group is no more complicated than field stripping the rifle for cleaning. The manufacturer has done all the heavy lifting.

Is it cheaper? No. But not really more expensive either. It just lets you spread out the payments. Like others have recommended, if the funds were immediately available I'd just grab a Colt 6720 or 6920 (perhaps one of the OEM models).

[Cookie Monster]

I have both but have stocked more heavily in AR. I train to fight with an AR, I have an AK so I will know how to fight with it.

Much easier to mount lights/optics on an AR, although Magpul might have changed the numbers a bit since I put my AK together. Sell what you need to sell, work the OT, be thoughtful and follow the advice here.

[GardoneVT]

Another point in the AR15s favor : there's a lot of local US based logistics in place for parts and service. AKs and other imported long guns are all well and good- unless DC crashes the party with a parts and ammo import ban.

[psalms144.1]

Here are my thoughts:

1. The AR is ubiquitous, like a GLOCK. You'll be able to find parts, magazines, accessories, and AMMO just about anywhere in the US (short of the $h1+h0le I live in)
2. The AR is easy to shoot, with decent ergonomics in "stock" configuration. The AK, not so much
3. The AR is easy to adapt to an optic, the AK, not so much

15 years ago, I would have argued the AK was a better choice, due to budget firearms and ammo flooding the market. Today, not so much

[DocGKR]

Get a G19, get an AR15: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbSXE55k_P4&index=260&list=PLrRQ__gsOAs10rvXdKHn6f_GMc1TeyzLc

[rob_s]

Aero Precision mid length for $600 (http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/lower-receivers/ac-15-5-56x45mm-nato-16-mid-length-rifle-prod82606.aspx?avs%7cPrice_1=300xzzx00+TO+799xzzx9 9&avs%7cManufacturer_1=AERO+PRECISION)

That's an interesting option, especially at that price. I'd be interested to hear from folks that have hands-on wihnthat exact make/model.

[Surf]

You can't really get a good AK for $500 now.

[Hambo]

Is it at actually cheaper to build an high quality AR15, than it is to buy an already completed rifle?

In the end, no, but if you're short on cash now you could buy a good lower or stripped receiver and finish it later.

[spinmove_]

Honestly, if you're in the US, you'd be better served by getting an AR15 and then getting the training to use it. Yes the AK is so easy a caveman could do it, but the AR15 really isn't that much more complex. You also have a better source of quality components here in the states, the vast majority of those parts being drop-in parts, more people will know how to train you properly on an AR than an AK, it recoils lighter, and you can fit the gun better to yourself. Go get a quality AR, a case of ammo, and some good quality training.

[Peally]

I find it odd that people still ask this question, and it's also odd that any AK is referred to in the same sentence as an AR as far as quality in any department. If you're not a dirt farming scumbag looking for a cheap rifle on the black market, just get an AR.

[rob_s]

I find it odd that people still ask this question, and it's also odd that any AK is referred to in the same sentence as an AR as far as quality in any department. If you're not a dirt farming scumbag looking for a cheap rifle on the black market, just get an AR.

there was a time when you could buy a "quality" (relatively speaking, for an AK, which is measured on a different scale than an AR) for less than half the cost of a decent AR.

Those times are gone now, and with the delta being further reduced every year between the cost of a functioning AK and a passable AR, that economy isn't there anymore.

Which doesn't mean there aren't other good reasons to buy an AK. I still want a DDI Magpul Zhukov because:fun. But it looks like it's going to cost me more than the Aero that LL posted on page 1.

[LittleLebowski]

I think it's better to buy a factory rifle for a good price than to deal with assembling a rifle unless you want to spread out the cost expenditure. I'd be fine with an M&P Sport. Here's one for $630 (http://www.thetacticalwire.com/features/229178) and don't forget to read up on the testing our very own SME Chuck Haggard conducted on one of these rifles (https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/4997/S&W+M&P+15+SPORT+II+.2235.56+16%22+AS+BLK+30).

[spinmove_]

I find it odd that people still ask this question, and it's also odd that any AK is referred to in the same sentence as an AR as far as quality in any department. If you're not a dirt farming scumbag looking for a cheap rifle on the black market, just get an AR.

I think that's a bit of a broad stroke you're painting with there. Quality AKs that work and shoot accurately can be had for around the same price as a Colt 6920. It's a different stroke for different folks and if you wanna be that different person that's gotta go against the grain starting out, be my guest, but they wouldn't necessarily have to be a dirt farming pleb to choose that option.

[LittleLebowski]

I think that's a bit of a broad stroke you're painting with there. Quality AKs that work and shoot accurately can be had for around the same price as a Colt 6920. It's a different stroke for different folks and if you wanna be that different person that's gotta go against the grain starting out, be my guest, but they wouldn't necessarily have to be a dirt farming pleb to choose that option.

Can you show us some available quality AKs for the same price as a 6920?

[spinmove_]

Can you show us some available quality AKs for the same price as a 6920?

I'm not an AK expert by any stretch, so take what I say here with a gain of salt. That being said, in my own personal research and understanding from those who do know more about AKs this (https://www.atlanticfirearms.com/component/virtuemart/shipping-rifles/arsenal-slr104fr-31-5-45x39mm-side-folding-rifle-detail.html?Itemid=0) would generally be your AK equivalent to an AR. Costs around $1,000, ballistics are similar, has plastic furniture that can be swapped out, and has the ability to mount an optic. Stick a sling, a light, and an optic with a good mount on it and feed it ammo and you'd essentially be in business.

[Peally]

You can build it using the finest materials available, yet it'll still do exactly what an AK does. Big 'ol battle rifle with half the features and aftermarket. I don't get it and never will, the only reason they're popular is they built a billion of the things.

[Jay Cunningham]

https://www.atlanticfirearms.com/component/virtuemart/shipping-rifles/arsenal-sam7r-milled-7-62x39mm-rifl-detail.html?Itemid=0

[VT1032]

I find it odd that people still ask this question, and it's also odd that any AK is referred to in the same sentence as an AR as far as quality in any department. If you're not a dirt farming scumbag looking for a cheap rifle on the black market, just get an AR.

Because 10 years ago, I could buy a piece of shit WASR10 for $325 out the door... That piece of shit is still running having never, not once been cleaned in that entire 10 year period, only lubed. I've never had a malfunction over the course of about 3,500 rounds. It's my designated beater gun. I've got AR's but I'm not going to abuse them like that.

At $325, it was money well spent, but at the ~$700 that they are going for now, forget it. Save another $100-150 or so and buy a Colt 6920 or 6720.

[Peally]

That's what I mean. If they're cheap as shit, sure, but I've never seen one priced at what I'd call reasonable for what you get. If it was Mosin style $100 bucks a pop for one I'd have 5 lying around.

[JAD]

In the end, no, but if you're short on cash now you could buy a good lower or stripped receiver and finish it later.

If you're short on cash and you're this forum's demographic, you should be spending that money on practice ammo and classes, and save dicking with a rifle for when you hit the lottery.

[VT1032]

That's what I mean. If they're cheap as shit, sure, but I've never seen one priced at what I'd call reasonable for what you get. If it was Mosin style $100 bucks a pop for one I'd have 5 lying around.

It used to be, and not that long ago. I wasn't joking when I said $325... Knowing what I know now, I'd have bought a whole crate of the damn things... They're ugly and some have canted sights, but in my sample size of one, its run like a raped ape.

[Surf]

I guess my specialty for rifles would be based around the M16/M4/AR15 series, however I will say that my go to "ranch rifle" and "hog gun" is a modded AK47 in the standard 7.62x39. The SGL26 as the base rifle is similar pricing as the 6920 and the modifications are also similar in price. So yep, a good AK is not cheap anymore.

[LittleLebowski]

I'm not an AK expert by any stretch, so take what I say here with a gain of salt. That being said, in my own personal research and understanding from those who do know more about AKs this (https://www.atlanticfirearms.com/component/virtuemart/shipping-rifles/arsenal-slr104fr-31-5-45x39mm-side-folding-rifle-detail.html?Itemid=0) would generally be your AK equivalent to an AR. Costs around $1,000, ballistics are similar, has plastic furniture that can be swapped out, and has the ability to mount an optic. Stick a sling, a light, and an optic with a good mount on it and feed it ammo and you'd essentially be in business.

Still a bit more expensive than many quality ARs.

[pangloss]

Is it at actually cheaper to build an high quality AR15, than it is to buy an already completed rifle?

I would venture to say "no." I've put together two ARs using parts from Palmetto State Armory, but their prices seemed to have edged up somewhat. A few months ago a friend wanted me to help him assemble a rifle (stripped lower + parts kit + complete upper), and that project would have cost about $100-$150 less than a similar FN rifle. FNs were running about $80-$100 less than Colt 6920's then. We decide that it wasn't worth it to build a rifle and he ordered a FN. Another friend has a 6920 that he bought on my recommendation, and based on appearance it definitely a nicer rifle than either of my PSA. Neither of my PSA rifles have any obvious defects, but they are still low round count guns. Neither action is as smooth as my friend's 6920 or my Sig. So, all that to say that if I didn't have an AR, I'd probably but a Colt 6920 or the equivalent FN instead of building a rifle. (However, I might also buy a couple of stripped lowers, and I would definitely order mags no matter what.)

[LittleLebowski]

I guess my specialty for rifles would be based around the M16/M4/AR15 series, however I will say that my go to "ranch rifle" and "hog gun" is a modded AK47 in the standard 7.62x39. The SGL26 as the base rifle is similar pricing as the 6920 and the modifications are also similar in price. So yep, a good AK is not cheap anymore.

Not seeing those available for a decent price anymore.

[Surf]

Not seeing those available for a decent price anymore.No were not. Got the SGL a few years ago, but they are even more spendy now if you find them. Even the SLR is a bit more than a 6920. I would say the DDI is more on par price wise with current 6920 pricing and that is almost my bottom line suggestion for an AK. Almost crazy to think how much I have into this one particular AK with optics.

[That Guy]

If you're short on cash and you're this forum's demographic, you should be spending that money on practice ammo and classes, and save dicking with a rifle for when you hit the lottery.

I don't think everyone here thinks of a rifle as just a fun toy.

[JAD]

I don't think everyone here thinks of a rifle as just a fun toy.

Do you think most people here would prioritize handgun proficiency training and practice over purchasing a rifle, if one had neither?

[spinmove_]

Do you think most people here would prioritize handgun proficiency training and practice over purchasing a rifle, if one had neither?

For the average civilian? Most definitely yes. Your chances of needing to defend your life at any given point in time are greater than needing to defend yourself while only at home. At home you can still defend yourself and your home with your carry pistol. Unless you have special circumstances, I'm betting you don't carry a rifle, especially concealed, on a daily basis.

[rob_s]

Do you think most people here would prioritize handgun proficiency training and practice over purchasing a rifle, if one had neither?

Maybe, but I bet that way fewer people in the "demographic" of this site would need to hit the lottery to afford a decent rifle. Or they could divert funds from the golf/boat/fishing/woodworking/whatever-other-hobby fund to pay for it.

Frankly, if I were so broke-dick that I couldn't afford a pistol AND a rifle, and the ammo to practice to a reasonable proficiency with the pistol and enjoy the rifle for entertainment, I'd probably bag on all this shooting nonsense and go back to college or a trade school. Way more return on investment.

[Hizzie]

This thread is pretty negative on the AK. I'll admit at this time a Colt 6920 offers more bang for your buck. The days of the $400 WASR are long gone. However if price is no object, high quality AK's that offer more ergonomics and accuracy are out there. Darryl Bolke has gotten sub MOA with premium ammo out of his his SAM7SF. I've gotten 2 MOA with Wolf out of mine. There is an ever growing amount of accessories available for the AK these days from American manufacturers. There are quality optic mounting solutions.

p/BLR64K8hCba

[TCinVA]

I don't think it's so much negative on the AK as it is acknowledging the reality of the gun. Several years ago when you could buy a $400 WASR having one to kick around made sense. Of course, you had to look very carefully to get one that wasn't jacked the fuck up from the factory. It turns out that making an AK properly is a pretty involved proposition. Arsenals have always sold within striking distance of a decent AR. Somewhat suspect AK builds using surplus AK parts from overseas (which the ATF put an end to...the bastards) could be had much less expensively.

And way, way back in the day you could get some screaming deals. I bought a Robinson Armament VEPR for something like $450 bucks not long after they hit the market.

The days of the $450 Russian manufactured RPK-based gun are long gone and probably never to return.

Today you can either spend $800-$1,000 on a good AK, you can peruse the gun shows looking for a deal (I snagged a 20" Norinco for $600 some years ago) that probably won't be there, or you can spend not much under that $800-$1,000 (which is entirely too much money for the quality you are getting IMO) on a Century or something like that.

If you want to spend under $800 or so bucks I think you are much more likely to have a good ownership experience buying a S&W or Ruger AR than you are trying to buy on the low end of the AK market.

[GJM]

For a new buyer, it is also easier to know a good AR than a good AK, and easier to set up an AR with an optic/sling/light.

[SecondsCount]

The AR is a simple answer. There are a lot of anomalies with AK's that tend to make it more of an enthusiasts gun. Kind of like a 1911 in the variances in quality, accessories, and magazines.


This thread is pretty negative on the AK. I'll admit at this time a Colt 6920 offers more bang for your buck. The days of the $400 WASR are long gone. However if price is no object, high quality AK's that offer more ergonomics and accuracy are out there. Darryl Bolke has gotten sub MOA with premium ammo out of his his SAM7SF. I've gotten 2 MOA with Wolf out of mine. There is an ever growing amount of accessories available for the AK these days from American manufacturers. There are quality optic mounting solutions.

I will be honest in that while I own a few, I don't have a lot of experience with AK's compared to the AR. In this thread I don't see a lot of negativity, more reality. Even in my limited experience, the WASR has always been a crapshoot, kind of the Olympic arms of the AR world. A friend recently got a good deal on one and was all excited but like most of the ones I have seen, the front sight was canted. If you want something in an AK that compares in quality with a Colt 6920 then you will be paying a few hundred more which isn't a big deal if that is what you really want.

The reality is that either way you are going to spend a lot of money. Most people spend twice as much on their home entertainment system that will depreciate like a rock compared to a quality firearm. Like rob_s said, most of us can afford whatever we want in a firearm, we just have different priorities and need to justify the cash in our heads.

[Hizzie]

I don't think the AK is any harder to set up with a optic/light/sling than an AR.

Blue Force Gear makes a dedicated, modern, AK sling

Ultimak w/Aimpoint Micro and Surefire in a Vltor offset is the classic set up.

RS Regulate BM-1 for a light and RS Regulate side mount for your choice of optic are proving themselves as reliable choices as well.

[Caballoflaco]

I don't think the AK is any harder to set up with a optic/light/sling than an AR.

Blue Force Gear makes a dedicated, modern, AK sling

Ultimak w/Aimpoint Micro and Surefire in a Vltor offset is the classic set up.

RS Regulate BM-1 for a light and RS Regulate side mount for your choice of optic are proving themselves as reliable choices as well.

Another negative for the AK is that a scope mount is going to cost an additional $100 (ultimak) minimum for the Ak.

A micro and ultimak is going to cost another 800 bucks. With an AR you can throw an aimpoint pro with the factory mount on the flat top reciever and you're good to go. I've used an aimpoint ml3 (same size as an aimpoint pro) on an ultimak and while doable I really didn't like how it made a front heavy rifle more front heavy.


That aside I currently have and like Ak's and don't have AR's. I got into them back when you could get a saiga for $300 bucks or a wasr for $400 and ammo was about $120 per 1000.

At the time I was living in a rental house that was on a semi-rural main road that couldn't be seen from the road. That means I came home more than once to a kicked in door. At that time in my life the most potentially dangerous place I went everyday was home. A folding stock ak in a tennis racquet bag on the front seat was comforting and not easily i.d'd as a weapon if someone was watching me come or go. Having stupid low rent and an old pecan orchard with deer, fox etc., for a front yard more than made up for the lack of security for a few years.

If I was starting over in 2016 I would go AR first. However, The AK still does everything I need a rifle to do, even if it's sub-optimal in most areas. I'll add AR's if it's not too late next year, but I don't want to sell my saiga or Arsenal and all the mags, ammo etc. I already have. I also love folding stocks since I have motorcycles instead of an SUV now that I'm living in the city.

This message was brought to you by a regular dude with no .mil or LE experience.

[LittleLebowski]

Aero Precision mid length for $600 (http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/lower-receivers/ac-15-5-56x45mm-nato-16-mid-length-rifle-prod82606.aspx?avs%7cPrice_1=300xzzx00+TO+799xzzx9 9&avs%7cManufacturer_1=AERO+PRECISION)

In stock, $589 (http://www.primaryarms.com/aero-ac-15-complete-rifle/p/apcr100015/), I think it's a carbine gas system.

[rob_s]

In stock, $589 (http://www.primaryarms.com/aero-ac-15-complete-rifle/p/apcr100015/), I think it's a carbine gas system.

I'm still looking for someone with more hands-on with these before I'm confident in recommending them.

That said, I also don't think it really matters that much anymore. Outside of glaring fails like Olympic Arms or DPMS.

[SecondsCount]

I'm still looking for someone with more hands-on with these before I'm confident in recommending them.

That said, I also don't think it really matters that much anymore. Outside of glaring fails like Olympic Arms or DPMS.

A review from August 2nd says the FSB is canted. :(

[LittleLebowski]

A review from August 2nd says the FSB is canted. :(

On an AR?

[Sadmin]

I've read they don't dimple their barrels or put extractor inserts in. Iraqguns reported carriers not being staked well either. Worst of all, apparently their CS sucks. It's a shame since I have used at least 4 of their lowers and never had an issue, guess they expanding too quickly.

[GJM]

Not sure if this was covered, but today, what is the AK equivalent brand and model of a Colt 6920?

[jeep45238]

Not sure if this was covered, but today, what is the AK equivalent brand and model of a Colt 6920?

I'm a personal fan of VEPR rifles using RS Regulate scope mounts. They're heavier, but the receivers are a lot thicker, have extra rivets in the trunnions, and have thicker barrels. Lots of caliber options as well, thought mine is a 5.45x39 (I bought 1/2 pallet of the ammo when it was dirt cheap, sort of married to the caliber till I run out).

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s127/jeep45238/Range%20Time/AE650323-2D8D-4B13-9CC0-ADA8D3A16F7F_zps7gewmumf.jpg

With surplus ammo and standing, there's no problem holding 4 MOA. Drop it on bags or go prone and it'll do less than that without an issue.

[Sadmin]

I would say one of the DDI 47 variants.
I would choose one over an Arsenal these days due to quality being as good as with a lower price point.

[TCinVA]

Not sure if this was covered, but today, what is the AK equivalent brand and model of a Colt 6920?

The guy with the most knowledge about civilian available AK pattern rifles that I've ever found says Arsenal. Just like there are other quality options besides the 6920 if you are savvy enough to learn about other options, there are other AK builds worth owning if you dig into the details. But for a stock recommendation of someone who wants a good quality AK pattern rifle that will work properly out of the box and offer a good service life without going into the weeds, Arsenal is my go-to.

[GJM]

What exact model Arsenal and DDI?

[rob_s]

On an AR?

Used to happen more frequently. People don't know the correct sequence of operations on things.

[SecondsCount]

On an AR?

I am not sure what your question is addressing.

I was responding to this post--


In stock, $589 (http://www.primaryarms.com/aero-ac-15-complete-rifle/p/apcr100015/), I think it's a carbine gas system.

If you read the reviews at the link that you provided, it sounds like someone received an Aero with a canted FSB.

Canted FSB's were an issue with cheaper AR's but I have not seen it in a long time.

[PearTree]

https://www.tombstonetactical.com/catalog/colt/ce1000-expanse-m4-rifle-5.56mm-16in-30rd-black/

https://www.gtdist.com/brands/colt/colt-expanse-m4-16-1-5-56-black.html

I have been told that gt distributors will add f/a and charging handle for $30.

[TCinVA]

What exact model Arsenal and DDI?

The SLR-107 series if you want a 7.62, the SLR-104 series if you want a 5.45.

They're made in a number of different configurations.

[rob_s]

The SLR-107 series if you want a 7.62, the SLR-104 series if you want a 5.45.

They're made in a number of different configurations.

Would seem that the SLR-107FR (SLR107-31) would be the most basic/readily-modifiable. Can't see one in-stock anywhere I looked quickly, but the last known retail was $1k. Kinda hard to stomach when the equivalent, readily-modifiable, 6920 is available and the same price (to return to the OP).

Shame the $800 6920s from awhile back aren't still available. I knew I shoulda grabbed one just to stick in the safe.

[GJM]

The SLR-107 series if you want a 7.62, the SLR-104 series if you want a 5.45.

They're made in a number of different configurations.

Glad things haven't changed. I have two -- an Arsenal 107 and a Krebs side folder, very similar to the 107 FR.

[Lex Luthier]

A note to the savvy shoppers- 6920s with less-popular Magpul stock styles (Carbon Fiber, Muddy Girl, Bounty Hunter, Kryptek) are still available under $900 locally and on Gunbroker. A number at a local shop were OEM-1s dressed up with discounted Magpul MOE "Carbon Fiber" furniture and available for $875. One need only add a rear iron sight.

[GJM]

thoughts on this AK:

http://www.krebscustom.com/products/271/KV13-Mod-2-7.62-x-39

[Hizzie]

thoughts on this AK:

http://www.krebscustom.com/products/271/KV13-Mod-2-7.62-x-39

Refined and modernized. Krebs guns have a tremendous reputation. Rifle is based off of vepr - thicker RPK barrel, trunnion and receiver. Proprietary Krebs stuff built into rifle so changing things might not be in the cards. Innovative muzzle device system.

[Beat Trash]

I have a couple of AK's in the safe. Both are functional. Neither can compete with even a basic AR as far as ergonomics. The best AK in the safe is almost as accurate as my most basic AR in the safe.

When an AK was available for $350 and a case of 7.62x39 ammunition was going for $89 per case at a gun show, the AK had a lot of merit. But for a person living in this country looking for their first (and possibly their only) rifle purchase, it's hard for me to even think of recommending an AK over a basic AR like the Colt 6920. Especially at the prices that a 6920 is going for.

You can buy the OEM1 rifle for about $750.

https://www.armsunlimited.com/Colt-OEM-AR15-M4-556mm-Rifle-No-Furniture-p/le6920-oem1.htm

Add some basic furniture and you have an extremely functional rifle for about the same or less than what a quality AK is currently selling for.

[Malamute]

At one point I was pondering this question, and I concluded that "bearded guy with AK" wasn't what I wanted to be if somehow involved in a bad situation. I wanted more favorable first impression if possible. May or may not be valid point, but it concerned me.

[Lost River]

Recipe for success:

Colt 6920 or 6720.
(Basically the 6920 has a heavier profile barrel, the 6720 is a skinny "pencil" barrel)

Personally after years of carrying the things, I very much prefer a lighter gun when possible (in regards to M4 types, not precision rifles).

Quality 2 point sling. VTAC, VCAS, or similar.

Quality white light and mount

Optic: A rather large book could be written about all the quality choices. For a red dot, I would recommend an Aimpoint. If you want magnification, a low power variable (LPV)is very practical, and a far more flexible optic as compared to an RDO or a fixed power optic like the ACOG. Personally I ran an illuminated 1.5-5 Leupold for years in the M.E. and it worked very well for both close range, and longer distance shooting.

Eventually when you have extra $$, an upgrade to a Geissele trigger is worth the expense, but certainly not needed.

For A.D.D. types, a summary:

Colt 6720
Aimpoint or LPV
VTAC sling
white light.



A guy would be pretty hard pressed to beat a Colt carbine, and a Glock 19 as a basic rifle/pistol battery.

Cheers!

[Lost River]

I forgot to mention that an alternative to the Colt, that is of equal quality, though lesser known to folks outside the military is FN (Fabrique Nationale).

FN has been building AR/M16 type rifles for the U.S. military (as well as belt feds such as the M240 and M249)for many years, and are good to go right from the rack. I would not hesitate to grab either a new Colt or FN off the rack, and go to work with it.

[Default.mp3]

I forgot to mention that an alternative to the Colt, that is of equal quality, though lesser known to folks outside the military is FN (Fabrique Nationale).

FN has been building AR/M16 type rifles for the U.S. military (as well as belt feds such as the M240 and M249)for many years, and are good to go right from the rack. I would not hesitate to grab either a new Colt or FN off the rack, and go to work with it.What I've have been told about the FN is that they are not allowed to use their knowledge of the TDP to build their civilian guns; not saying that it's good or bad, just that it's not going to be the same line as their military guns. I've been hearing too many mixed reviews about FN (nothing outright bad, just little issues like missing staking or whatever) to say that they're civilian line is on par with Colt's.

[Lost River]

From the perspective of having spent time in both the Colt and FN manufacturing facilities, I would take internet stories with a large dose of salt.

Frankly, the FN facility is substantially more modern and organized than Colt.

Colt, while doing certain things very well, has been hurt by "union workers" in my opinion. An example of such is that I observed a significant amount of the workforce who appeared to be just "putting in their hours" and nothing more. It seemed like there was only a small percentage of the workers who genuinely cared. In other words, from my observation, 20% of the workforce who genuinely had pride in their work/the Colt name, and cared about the company was doing 80+% of the work, while others just occupied space. Fortunately those 20% truly make up for the slugs who were doing the absolute minimum possible.

FN on the other hand is a thoroughly modern facility, and everyone seemed to take pride in what they were doing. In fact, I would consider FN and Knight's Armament to be the top 2 outfits in regards to high quality manufacturing that I have personal experience with. Colt makes a truly excellent rifle, but it is readily apparent that they have not invested much in terms of upgrading their facility for quite a few years.

Of course that is purely one person's opinion/observation. Internet celebrities like "nutnfancy" and James Yeager may have a completely different view. :rolleyes:

[ReverendMeat]

What I've have been told about the FN is that they are not allowed to use their knowledge of the TDP to build their civilian guns; not saying that it's good or bad, just that it's not going to be the same line as their military guns. I've been hearing too many mixed reviews about FN (nothing outright bad, just little issues like missing staking or whatever) to say that they're civilian line is on par with Colt's.

Disclaimer: I don't know shit about shit.

When FN AR-15s hit the market I was not impressed with the one (1) I saw that came through as a transfer. All I remember is an unstaked RE nut, which is a warning sign to me so I kinda wrote them off. Years later I get another couple (2) and they're comparable 1:1 with a Colt in every way I know how to check. Their 20" is really tempting to me but some of that is probably nostalgia, my M16s were all FN.

[Chuck Haggard]

I spent the weekend at my friend Buck Peddicord's range at Defense Midwest attending Mike Pannone's street and vehicle class.

Buck's range can be challenging in that the range surface is a mix of sand and concrete millings. A superb all weather conditions surface, but hard on guns and magazines.

The entire class was for the most part AR15s, with a Sig, Tavor and MP5K thrown in for fun. Very, very few issues from any of the guns, and those that had issues were the usual suspects.

My S&W Sport continues to run strong, even fed shit ammo from sketchy magazines. It worked better than one of my Aimpoint T1s this weekend as the rifle had no issues except one stoppage, with a Vietnam era magazine loaded with some 30ish year old Norinco .223 ammo, that was clearly magazine related, but the optic shit the bed on me (first issue I've seen first hand with any Aimpoints though...)

Properly built ARs are much more reliable and durable than people often think, and vastly more so than detractors will ever admit.

[GJM]

Review on Mike's class coming?

[Chuck Haggard]

Review on Mike's class coming?

Yes

[rob_s]

From the perspective of having spent time in both the Colt and FN manufacturing facilities,

Can you elaborate on what that time consisted of?

[Lost River]

Can you elaborate on what that time consisted of?

Yep.

Weeks/days a time of armorer classes (depending on the system) on various weapons systems such as the M203, M240, M249, AR-15/M16 series, M110 SASS, plus operator classes. Due to representing the organization that sent me to the facilities, and (I am guessing) bearing in mind the contracts, often the manufacturers give in depth tours, let people play with next gen concepts/gear, tour R&D, the usual stuff. In the case of Colt, check out the custom shop (which was actually a big cage).

One gent was working on a matched set of single action army revolvers for G.W. Bush. As I recall the serial #s were 1 GWB, and GWB 1, very intricate engraving. The guy said he had been carving on them for a couple years, off and on, in between other jobs. Pretty interesting.

The folks at K.A. were super nice, and allowed us to fiddle with some of the guns in the personal collection display room. If I recall right, we were told that a good chunk of the collection came from Colt, and was part of a deal in exchange for the All American 2000 pistol patent. Plus we checked out some of the next gen night vision. I had just flown in from the M.E., straight to Florida, and with my nights and days flip flop, was exhausted. The K.A. people were super accommodating. Genuinely great people.

[Duces Tecum]

I will say that my go to "ranch rifle" and "hog gun" is a modded AK47 in the standard 7.62x39.

Would it be fair to conclude that a 7.62x39 is a more effective round than a 5.56x45 for HD purposes?

[texasaggie2005]

Would it be fair to conclude that a 7.62x39 is a more effective round than a 5.56x45 for HD purposes?

I just read this the other day, and I thought it was interesting.

Why I'd rather be shot with an AK47 than an M4. (http://tacmedaustralia.com.au/why-id-rather-be-shot-with-an-ak47-than-an-m4/)

[Duces Tecum]

I just read this the other day, and I thought it was interesting.

Thank you! Most interesting.

[Default.mp3]

I just read this the other day, and I thought it was interesting.

Why I'd rather be shot with an AK47 than an M4. (http://tacmedaustralia.com.au/why-id-rather-be-shot-with-an-ak47-than-an-m4/)Except that writer places a large emphasis on the temporary cavitation generated by the 5.56×45mm as being the primary reason it has superior wound ballistics compared to the 7.62×39mm:

Far more damaging than the permanent cavity left by a projectile is the temporary cavity that it creates. Anyone who has ever watched the TV show Myth Busters will have some familiarity with this concept, and it is best demonstrated using slow motion video imagery of bullets being shot into special jelly known as ballistic gelatin, which is calibrated to be the same density as human soft tissues. What can be seen in these video images is the pulsating dissipation of energy that emanates out from a bullet as it passes through the gelatin. This is a visual illustration of the concept of temporary cavitation, and it allows the viewer to begin to appreciate the devastating effect that a high velocity missile can have once it enters a human body. The temporary cavitation is the transfer of Kinetic Energy from the projectile into the tissues of the target, and as we learned above, is relative to the mass and, more importantly, the velocity of the projectile. As the energy of the projectile is dissipated into the tissues of the target the temporary cavitation pulverizes structures adjacent to the bullet’s tract, including blood vessels, nerves, muscles and any solid organs that may be in close proximity. For that reason the high velocity projectile does not need to pass directly through a structure in the body to destroy it. The higher the Kinetic Energy of the projectile the further out from the permanent cavity the temporary cavity extends.Emphasis mine.

Yet DocGKR states that:

The tissue surrounding the permanent cavity is briefly pushed laterally aside as it is centrifugally driven radially outward by the projectile's passage. The empty space normally occupied by the momentarily displaced tissue surrounding the wound track, is called the temporary cavity. The temporary cavity quickly subsides as the elastic recoil of the stretched tissue returns it towards the wound track. The tissue that was stretched by the temporary cavity may be injured and is analogous to an area of blunt trauma surrounding the permanent crush cavity. The degree of injury produced by temporary cavitation is quite variable, erratic, and highly dependent on anatomic and physiologic considerations. Many flexible, elastic soft tissues such as muscle, bowel wall, skin, blood vessels, and empty hollow organs are good energy absorbers and are highly resistant to the blunt trauma and contusion caused by the stretch of temporary cavitation. Inelastic tissues such as the liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas, brain, and completely full fluid or gas filled hollow organs, such as the bladder, are highly susceptible to severe permanent splitting, tearing, and rupture due to temporary cavitation insults. Projectiles are traveling at their maximum velocity when they initially strike and then slow as they travel through tissue. In spite of this, the maximum temporary cavity is not always found at the surface where the projectile is at its highest velocity, but often deeper in the tissue after it has slowed considerably. The maximum temporary cavitation is usually coincidental with that of maximum bullet yaw, deformation, or fragmentation, but not necessarily maximum projectile velocity.

...

Projectile fragmentation in tissue can also greatly increase the permanent cavity size. When a rifle bullet fragments in tissue, each of the multiple fragments spreads out radially from the main wound track, cutting its own path through tissue. This fragmentation acts synergistically with the stretch of temporary cavitation. The multiply perforated tissue loses its elasticity and is unable to absorb stretching that would ordinarily be tolerated by intact tissue. The temporary cavitation displacement of tissue, which occurs following the passage of the projectile, stretches this weakened tissue and can grossly disrupt its integrity, tearing and detaching pieces of tissue. Note that handgun bullets, regardless of whether they are fired from pistols or SMG’s, do not generally exhibit the fragmentation effects produced by rifle bullets. If handgun bullets do fragment, the bullet fragments are usually found within 1 cm of the permanent cavity; wound severity is usually decreased by the fragmentation since the bullet mass is reduced, causing a smaller permanent crush cavity.Emphasis mine.

Source: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4328-Basic-Wound-Ballistic-Terminal-Performance-Facts

So, yes, temporary cavitation can play an important role in the efficacy of rifle ammunition... but I don't think it plays the overwhelming role that Mr. Pronk seems to think it does in this little case study.

[texasaggie2005]

...

I'd agree with that. Whenever I see temp or perm cavity discussions, I tend to just gloss over it, since it's typically bad info anyways, as you pointed out with ref to DocGKR's post.

Had the example 7.62x39 bullet hit bone, I imagine the damage would have more severe than the ice pick it did. I hate to even bring this up as an example, but Tom's wife is an excellent example that an AK round can certainly cause extensive damage when hitting bone.

[Chuck Haggard]

For the most part the x39 doesn't have many loads that make either a permanent or temp cavity large enough to exceed the performance of the 5.56 round. All of the various non-expanding loads that fail to yaw exhibit wounding about the same as the old .38 RNL standard velocity bullet.

Check out the last diagram in the thread;
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4329-Military-Wound-Ballistic-History


Something like the Hornady SST loading can more mimic the 30-30 in wounding. That still doesn't make this a .22lr vs .45acp argument in nature. The 5.56 in any .mil load that yaws, or expanding/fragmenting load with a 55gr or greater bullet typically knocks the shit out of people at close range.

In rifles temp cavity IS a thing.

[Hizzie]

I just read this the other day, and I thought it was interesting.

Why I'd rather be shot with an AK47 than an M4. (http://tacmedaustralia.com.au/why-id-rather-be-shot-with-an-ak47-than-an-m4/)

Apples to cabbages. Guy compares a 556 to the femur vs a 762 to just meat.

[Flintsky]

Logistically, AR-15 if you are in the United States. If I were in Russia, I would go with a AK-74 variant. Quality and support is almost always best for a weapon system in their country of origin.