Home defense shotgun | Pump vs Semi-Auto ?

[lawnguy]

Is it really true that a pump shotgun is better than a semi-auto shotgun for home defense?

[SamuelBLong]

No.

Let's not even go get side tracked into the "racking" to deter thing.

Given the choice I would always take a reliable semi-auto vs a pump.Semi's are faster cycling for follow ups, and less risk of short stroking / inducing a malfunction under stress. Plus they maintain more training continuity with carbines and other rifles.

Semi's can / and are more ammo type restrictive, but it really is a non issue given a good quality personal defense load.


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[Paul Sharp]

No.

Let's not even go get side tracked into the "racking" to deter thing.

Given the choice I would always take a reliable semi-auto vs a pump.Semi's are faster cycling for follow ups, and less risk of short stroking / inducing a malfunction under stress. Plus they maintain more training continuity with carbines and other rifles.

Semi's can / and are more ammo type restrictive, but it really is a non issue given a good quality personal defense load.


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Additionally semiautos have less perceived recoil in those instances when a smaller framed family member needs to do work.


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[GJM]

A pump is more likely to not function because of user error. A semi is more likely to not function because of mechanical error.

A pump shotgun is a great tool, able to launch a wide range of projectiles, if a person is willing to dedicate a significant time to learn how to operate it. If not, buy a quality semi-auto and be done with it.

[HCM]

All of the above advice is spot on.

The upside to a pump gun is usually lower price for a decent quality gun. Unless you have significant time running a pump gun in hunting or clay target games you are more likely To induce a malfunction with the pump gun.

A good quality semi auto shotgun Will be significantly more reliable in the hands of most users. The catch is a good quality semi auto shotgun cost 2 to 3 times what a good quality pump shotgun costs. There are cheaper semi auto shotgun's and they are fine for gun games and bird hunting but the quality and reliability is literally hit and miss, not really something you want to stake your life on.

Think of cheap semi auto shotgun's like the cheap consumer grade lawnmowers that are sold in big box stores as compared to professional grade mowers. In both cases you get what you pay for.

[Chipster]

I just bought a Benelli M2 for this reason. While my wife can zip the steel reliably with a .22 rifle, the Winchester 1300 throws her for a loop. She is more of a point, take off the safety, keep pulling the trigger until whatever she is aiming at falls down type person.

[GJM]

I just bought a Benelli M2 for this reason. While my wife can zip the steel reliably with a .22 rifle, the Winchester 1300 throws her for a loop. She is more of a point, take off the safety, keep pulling the trigger until whatever she is aiming at falls down type person.

My wife refers to the M2 as the shoulder fired Glock.

[El Cid]

I don't know when autos became reliable enough and it may be hard to pin point a specific time period. But I suspect the old adage of a pump being better/more reliable will sadly live on for years. The good news is that when we hear a person parroting the old information we can quickly assess their "expertise."

Hell, even if you ignore the pump vs auto aspect... running any tubular magazine shotgun really well takes more time and dedication than most shooters are willing to devote.

[P.E. Kelley]

I am SO IMPRESSED! Forum after forum would have its members believing pumps are the king...thank you guys for
offering up quality advice.
I say this as a two time Gold Medalist at two Pan American Shotgun Championships...in the Pump (manual standard)
division.

[Jay585]

My wife refers to the M2 as the shoulder fired Glock.

I just checked it out and boy it sure doesn't come with the economy of a glock.

What else should one look at? Or is the M2 a "cry once, buy once" type of deal?

[El Cid]

I just checked it out and boy it sure doesn't come with the economy of a glock.

What else should one look at? Or is the M2 a "cry once, buy once" type of deal?

I've been closely following the Beretta 1301 thread and expect to purchase one in the coming year.

[jlw]

If I were buying a current production shotgun, I would buy a Beretta 1301 as it is the best balance of price, features, and quality available.

That being said, in a recent class, I ran a drill with five targets at 15 yards distance spaced a few yards apart. The shotgun was loaded to gunbox/cruiser/storage ready with four rounds. The shooter had to hit the first four targets, combat load a round, and hit the 5th target. I shot it with a student's 1301, and I shot it with a used 870P that I recently purchased. I was a full second faster with the 870P. A couple of factors played into this. I have run maybe 20-30 rounds through a 1301. The recoil impulse is different than the Benelli M1 (the only semi with which I have significant trigger time), and I have difficulty seeing the sights on the 1301 against a black background. I have decades of experience with the 870.

In discussing the above with my preferred firearms training guru, he pointed out that with multiple shots on the same target that the semi will outrun the pump, but a skilled pumpgunner can make up the difference on multiple targets.

I think the real advantage of a semi is the ability to go to suboptimal shooting positions without having to work the action. Everything else is a wash.

[nalesq]

Additionally semiautos have less perceived recoil in those instances when a smaller framed family member needs to do work.


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For smaller people, other advantages of the semi auto, at least with the Beretta 1301, include lighter weight (compared to a Remington 870), and not having to have as long of a reach with one's support arm, since there is no pump to manually cycle. These factors significantly reduce smaller person upper body fatigue when practicing, conducting a search, or holding an aggressive low ready for extended periods of time.

[Oukaapie]

Beretta 1301
FN SLP

[Xrslug]

I recently took a shotgun class with Scott "Uncle Scotty" Reitz's company, ITTS. Highly recommended if you're in the area. This was their intro to shotgun class and it was interesting to see folks with different experience levels run different types of shotguns under some degree of time pressure (face offs against steel targets, etc). Some had taken multiple shotgun classes before and some had literally never fired a shotgun before the class. Most of the shotguns were 870s, 590s, and quite a few Benelli M4s. I may have seen one M2.

The primary instructors were three current LAPD SWAT operators. Although they have access to pretty much whatever they want weapon-wise, they said the first guy through the door on their team still carries a Benelli M4. Not surprisingly, they described the shotgun wounds they've seen on the street as "devastating." Their use of the 870 is limited to breaching and less-than-lethal rounds (although LAPD patrol cops still use the 870).

Pertinent to the OP's question, none of the shotguns in the class had a mechanical malfunction. There were many user-induced "malfunctions" arising from how manipulation-intensive a shotgun is, to include forgetting to cycle the pump action before the next shot (I saw this quite a few times), loading shells backwards, and trying to take a shot with the safety still on. My observations are that if using a pump action is a subconscious operation for you, then you can be very quick and efficient. Seeing Scott Reitz manipulate the 870 was eye opening.

If you need to think about operating a pump action while you're doing it, you'll need to get more reps or may just be better off with a semi-auto. I think the semi-auto is just easier to use because there's less body motion involved so you can concentrate on sight picture and trigger press. All the more so if you are shooting from prone, around barriers, anything that might be more awkward with the need to operate a pump.

That said, I ran the class with my old Wingmaster that I've updated with the new shell carrier/bolt design, new springs, Wilson Combat safety, etc. Only gun in the class with wood furniture. Did just fine with it and it ran perfectly. I really want a 1301 but can't make up my mind on which model. Tough to pass up the Tactical at $800 shipped, though.

[Hambo]

I think the real advantage of a semi is the ability to go to suboptimal shooting positions without having to work the action. Everything else is a wash.

This is why I quit using an 870 in competition and went to a Benelli. In some stages pump-semi didn't matter at all, because it was really about how fast you could reload. But when I was shooting under barricades, out of cars, etc, the Benelli was easier to use.

However, the shotgun in my bedroom is an 870 kept in cruiser ready state. I've spent so much time shooting pumps that the manual of arms will be the last thing I remember when I'm in a nursing home.

[Rex G]

The pump gun is a useful tool. We have three Remington 870 shotguns in the house at the moment. One, a Wingmaster, belongs to my wife, and is her home-defense long gun of choice. She is simply not interested in learning to use any semi-auto weapons, except for one pistol that she really likes. The other two are both 870P Police models, one of which goes to work with me five or six nights a week.

I had a Benelli M1 Super 90, during the Nineties. A small part, a washer, was missing, upon delivery. To their credit, HK, the distributor at that time, mailed a washer to me, quickly. During a "select slug" class, the safety button froze on the on-safe position; it took a mallet to un-stick the darn thing. Then, I broke two screws while trying to adjust the rear sight. Feeling jinxed, I sold that Benelli, with full disclosure of the problems, to another officer at that class, and reverted to pump guns

Having said that, I may be about to add a Benelli M2. One reason is because, after about three decades of never short-stroking while pumping, I did so, several times. Before this, I had seen fellow police officers, larger and stronger than me, short-stroke their pump guns, and I felt a bit of contempt for their weak gun-handling. Then, it happened to me, and then happened again, and on occasion, again. While this is largely a software problem, a simple hardware fix can be a shorter stock, so after installing a Magpul stock, at the recommendation of an instructor, the short-stroking was no more, though of course, I trained quite a bit, too, to get my rhythm back.

Another reason to go with a semi-auto is because a pump can be difficult to operate while prone. I knew this, but did not worry too much, because I foresaw a low probability of engaging while prone, until the night I flopped down onto my belly to engage two drug dealers hiding under a house. They had just been in a gunfight with narcotics officers, so this was serious. I knew I had one shot before I would have to shift position a bit to cycle the action, or perhaps transition to pistol, and I was looking at two desperate felons. (They surrendered, thankfully, having ditched their Glocks a short distance away, and one having a bloody arm hanging uselessly, anyway.)

A third reason to go with the Benelli M2 option is that my right shoulder and hand are now aging and ailing, perhaps compromising my capabilities to operate the pump effectively. (I am lefty with long guns.)

Adding a Benelli M2 is not a sure thing, for me, but for someone not already invested in a pump gun system, an autoloading shotgun might be a best practice.

I have only mentioned the Benelli M1/M2 and Remington 870 because these are the only shotguns my command staff will let me carry. There are other good guns out there.

[ASH556]

I like shotguns. I find them to be fun and interesting. I'm no Patrick Kelley but I've run a fair number of rounds through shotguns in hunting, sporting clays, and most recently, 3 gun. For most things, I prefer an auto and a Benelli Inertia auto at that. Just dead simple and reliable. However, I recently switched from a 14" Benelli Entry Gun to an 870 in my HD role. One of the drivers was malfunction clearing. Autos (especially inertia autos) are more ammo and weight sensitive. The thing is, an auto relies on the ammo to cycle the gun and due to the nature of shotshell ammo (crimped plastic hull) you get more dimensional variance. Not only that, when an auto gets jammed, it can take 3 or 4 steps to clear, sometimes requiring more hands and fingers than the average human has. It's also faster to get an empty pump up and running again.

Just another reason to consider the manually-operated shotgun.

[DocGKR]

A manually operated shotgun is generally quite accepted by the "public" as a defensive weapon...

A recent discussion of home defense weapons occurred here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrGL8wexJdA

[SLG]

I pretty much agree with everything in this thread, but as usual, it is the man, not the gun. I like them all, I use them all, I still grab a 5.56 above all.

[Kyle Reese]

I pretty much agree with everything in this thread, but as usual, it is the man, not the gun. I like them all, I use them all, I still grab a 5.56 above all.

I know, right? We're issued 14" SBS's at work, but I still prefer an M4 for just about anything where I'd need or want a long gun.

[shane45]

I fully admit that shotguns are a weak area of shooting for me. But just from a very basic fundamental perspective, I seem to shoot a pump better. Against 5 standing targets, for some reason I feel like my timing on targets is better with the pump. Could easily be a technique issue on my part.

[JAD]

I like shotguns, and though I have always run pumps the 1301 thread is threatening my kid's college fund, because I like learning new things. I like ARs, too. But for home defense, I have decided to invest most of my focus and time into the gun I carry around all day every day, which good lord willing will be the thing closest to hand if I need to defend my life in or out of my home.

[Crews]

I just checked it out and boy it sure doesn't come with the economy of a glock.

What else should one look at? Or is the M2 a "cry once, buy once" type of deal?


I will not argue that dropping the coin on a Benelli autoloader is worth every penny no doubt....

For a more budget friendly, meat-and-taters good autoloader, take a look at a Beretta A300. Of course, one has to consider aftermarket parts availability.




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[HCM]

I just checked it out and boy it sure doesn't come with the economy of a glock.

What else should one look at? Or is the M2 a "cry once, buy once" type of deal?

Yes. I've had my rifle sighted M1 since 1988. Worth every penny.

Re: potential inertia gun issues. The Benelli M4, while pricey, is an excellent gun as well.

[Wondering Beard]

I just checked it out and boy it sure doesn't come with the economy of a glock.

Hmm, a Glock semi auto shotgun, that could be interesting ;-)

[Mitch]

Hmm, a Glock semi auto shotgun, that could be interesting ;-)

12 gauge hulls beaning me in the forehead doesn't sound very pleasant [/mild snark].


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[Duelist]

lawnguy:

I have a couple of thoughts for you, especially in regards to your rifle and shotgun threads, and your recent acquisition of a pistol.

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but IIRC, your finances are like mine - limited. My wife and I are school teachers with a kid in college and another who is a senior and applying to colleges. Wants are usually overshadowed by needs. Bills usually get paid on time, but there's not a lot left of our paychecks after, and sometimes there's some scrambling to cover everything.

If that sounds like you, then I have some practical advice for you that you might find useful.

You've asked a lot of questions, on a variety of topics and guns and calibers, and that's good. How else are you supposed to learn? Guns are fun, and new interests are exciting. But. I think that, being that you are in the financial situation you seem to be in, there are some more ... Critical things to think about.

Do you have a holster? Do you like it? Do you hate it? Does it work for your carry method and clothing? How many magazines do you have? Without magazines, it's a single shot, so you need to collect at least a couple of spares, and having a good way to carry one on your person is another thing to think about.

What about ammo? Do you have any? How much? Are you just going with ball, since it's a .380, or are you diving down the rabbit hole after a hollow point that actually works in that caliber? Once you have selected a practice and carry load, accumulate! Spend your money here - skill comes from time at the range and bullets, not more guns.

IMHO, the next gun you get should be a mid or full size 9mm, from one of the major manufacturers. Generic recommendation would be a Glock, but as long as it works, it really doesn't matter. (Cue pic: What if I told you it doesn't matter what gun you use?). And get mags, ammo, and a functional holster or two.

Long guns, for a non-hunter with limited funds, are probably superfluous. I do hunt, and so made it a priority to acquire tools for that hobby. I have been fortunate to have previously worked at a job that paid very well, so I was able to slowly accumulate a few things. I have some rifles, and a shotgun. But at this point, anything I get pretty much means something else I have is getting sold to pay for it, or I'm saving a few bucks per paycheck in my sock drawer until I can pay for it.

If I didn't hunt, I might still have an AR. But i didn't pay for my 5.56 AR in the first place - it was a college graduation gift. My 6.8 has become superfluous, and is probably getting liquidated. The only rifle I would have if I didn't hunt and had paid for it myself is the used 10/22 I got for $100 when I was in college.

All I am buying now is ammo, reloading components, and magazines. Those are consumables. More guns won't make my family safer or help me shoot better, but more ammo might help both of those areas.

Bottom line: focus on the gun you have. Buy and shoot as much ammo as you can afford. Get spare mags, a functional holster, your permit and carry your gun. Save up and get a bigger 9mm someday, and repeat what you did with your pocket gun. Leave long guns alone until your finances are better.

[BillSWPA]

lawnguy:

I have a couple of thoughts for you, especially in regards to your rifle and shotgun threads, and your recent acquisition of a pistol.

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but IIRC, your finances are like mine - limited. My wife and I are school teachers with a kid in college and another who is a senior and applying to colleges. Wants are usually overshadowed by needs. Bills usually get paid on time, but there's not a lot left of our paychecks after, and sometimes there's some scrambling to cover everything.

If that sounds like you, then I have some practical advice for you that you might find useful.

You've asked a lot of questions, on a variety of topics and guns and calibers, and that's good. How else are you supposed to learn? Guns are fun, and new interests are exciting. But. I think that, being that you are in the financial situation you seem to be in, there are some more ... Critical things to think about.

Do you have a holster? Do you like it? Do you hate it? Does it work for your carry method and clothing? How many magazines do you have? Without magazines, it's a single shot, so you need to collect at least a couple of spares, and having a good way to carry one on your person is another thing to think about.

What about ammo? Do you have any? How much? Are you just going with ball, since it's a .380, or are you diving down the rabbit hole after a hollow point that actually works in that caliber? Once you have selected a practice and carry load, accumulate! Spend your money here - skill comes from time at the range and bullets, not more guns.

IMHO, the next gun you get should be a mid or full size 9mm, from one of the major manufacturers. Generic recommendation would be a Glock, but as long as it works, it really doesn't matter. (Cue pic: What if I told you it doesn't matter what gun you use?). And get mags, ammo, and a functional holster or two.

Long guns, for a non-hunter with limited funds, are probably superfluous. I do hunt, and so made it a priority to acquire tools for that hobby. I have been fortunate to have previously worked at a job that paid very well, so I was able to slowly accumulate a few things. I have some rifles, and a shotgun. But at this point, anything I get pretty much means something else I have is getting sold to pay for it, or I'm saving a few bucks per paycheck in my sock drawer until I can pay for it.

If I didn't hunt, I might still have an AR. But i didn't pay for my 5.56 AR in the first place - it was a college graduation gift. My 6.8 has become superfluous, and is probably getting liquidated. The only rifle I would have if I didn't hunt and had paid for it myself is the used 10/22 I got for $100 when I was in college.

All I am buying now is ammo, reloading components, and magazines. Those are consumables. More guns won't make my family safer or help me shoot better, but more ammo might help both of those areas.

Bottom line: focus on the gun you have. Buy and shoot as much ammo as you can afford. Get spare mags, a functional holster, your permit and carry your gun. Save up and get a bigger 9mm someday, and repeat what you did with your pocket gun. Leave long guns alone until your finances are better.

Very good points above.

I will add that every time in my life when I thought I might need a gun, the one within reach was either a handgun or none at all. In almost all cases it was the handgun on my person. Making sure that I have a good way to have one on my person, and can draw and shoot it well, seems far more critical to me than anything having to do with long guns.

Years ago on another forum, "SouthNarc" posted his idea of 3 guns that would meet most defensive needs. One was a basic concealed carry gun, in his case a J-frame. One was a mousegun, in his case a Seecamp .32. One was a full size gun, or something close to it with at least a 4 inch barrel and 3-finger grip, which in his case was a Kimber 1911.

You already have the mousegun in the form of the LCP. Add a Glock 26, and you have the basic concealed carry gun covered. You will find the 26 to be easy enough to shoot so that you can put off the purchase of a full size for quite some time, until the purchase is comfortable. I would therefore suggest replacing the full size with a .22. A .22 will pay for itself in ammo savings with surprising quickness, allowing very inexpensive practice.

A SIRT laser training pistol is also a very wise investment, as it allows you to practice, with feedback, in places where you could not shoot. Get the version with a metal slide so that it duplicates the weight of a real gun. You don't need a green laser unless you plan to use it outdoors.

Good quality holsters which keep the gun concealed, secure, quiet, and quickly accessible, including magazine pouches, belts, etc. also have a cost, and you will end up buying several until you find out what you like. Good ones are money well spent since they will ensure that the gun will be there. I would place this in importance above a new gun.

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