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Mr_White
10-07-2016, 10:18 AM
Week 185: The Two Second Standards Part 1

Results may be posted until November 7th, 2016.

Designed by: Hardwired Tactical Shooting
Range: 3 and 5 yards
Target: B8 bull (black only) - download here: https://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=281&d=1322428748
Start Position: Holstered or ready
Rounds Fired: Varies
Par Time: 2 seconds


In a close range deadly force confrontation, time will be the most critical commodity. The armed citizen/officer responding to the threat will have very little time to make effective shots on the adversary (ies) posing the threat. While every fight is different, my proposal is that we must achieve effective hits (and as many as possible) within no more than a two second window at the beginning of hostilities.

This week we're going to focus on the most core aspects of the two second standards: presentation of the handgun from the holster and from ready, and shooting the B8 bull at 3 and 5 yards, with 100% hits under the time limit. We'll repeat this drill at some point in the future and widen the scope to a greater variety of tasks and distances.

String 1: Place the target at 3 yards and start in ready position of your choice. At the start signal, shoot as many rounds to the black B8 bull as possible. Record the number of hits you got within the par time. If you have any misses (shots outside the black bull), or any overtime shots, your score is zero.

String 2: Repeat string 1, but starting from the holster.

String 3: Place the target at 5 yards and start in ready position of your choice. At the start signal, shoot as many rounds to the black B8 bull as possible. Record the number of hits you got within the par time. If you have any misses (shots outside the black bull), or any overtime shots, your score is zero.

String 4: Repeat string 3, but starting from the holster.

If you completed all four strings with no misses or overtime shots, you Pass. If you have any misses or overtime shots, you Fail.

Please report the following when you post your results in this thread:

Equipment used (pistol, holster, optional concealment garment if one was used)
Score on String 1
Score on String 2
Score on String 3
Score on String 4
Grand Total Score
Pass or Fail
Anything you noticed

Training with firearms is an inherently dangerous activity. Be sure to follow all safety protocols when using firearms or practicing these drills. These drills are provided for information purposes only. Use at your own risk.

scw2
10-07-2016, 12:48 PM
If you aren't able to shoot from the holster, would it be beneficial to shoot those strings from the position in the drawstroke where your hands normally join?

Duelist
10-07-2016, 12:59 PM
I'm not parsing part of this. "As many rounds as possible" before par time ends does not seem to jive with "any overtime shots" making the score zero, because, at least in *my* head, I start shooting as soon as I can, as fast as I can make hits, until the second beep stops me, but that almost certainly means I'll have a shot or two after the second beep before my reaction time can stop my trigger finger.

Probably doesn't matter much for me, since I'll probably get two shots off from ready, and be lucky to get one from the holster.

Mr_White
10-07-2016, 01:11 PM
Fair question Duelist. I've asked the originators of the drill to clarify which way they think is most appropriate and I'll pass it along here.

Mr_White
10-07-2016, 01:11 PM
If you aren't able to shoot from the holster, would it be beneficial to shoot those strings from the position in the drawstroke where your hands normally join?

Sure, I think that's fair enough and a good option to enable your participation in the drill.

Mr_White
10-07-2016, 02:46 PM
I'm not parsing part of this. "As many rounds as possible" before par time ends does not seem to jive with "any overtime shots" making the score zero, because, at least in *my* head, I start shooting as soon as I can, as fast as I can make hits, until the second beep stops me, but that almost certainly means I'll have a shot or two after the second beep before my reaction time can stop my trigger finger.

Probably doesn't matter much for me, since I'll probably get two shots off from ready, and be lucky to get one from the holster.

Verified with Wayne - no grace period. Any shot out of the black or any overtime shot = score of 0.

JAD
10-07-2016, 09:54 PM
The drill is kind of about knowing when to stop.

Luke
10-07-2016, 09:56 PM
The drill is kind of about knowing when to stop.

It is 2016, now when you shoot someone you have to do it "humanely". When I run this drill I will apologize to the target before I start my search and assess.












Been doin pretty good on the DOTW's Gabe!

GJM
10-08-2016, 06:07 AM
Something must not be translating properly, or the #1 thing you are testing is knowing what two seconds is? Perhaps it was designed for targets that turn, presenting themselves only for the fixed amount of time. Hopefully Wayne or Darryl can clarify.

GuanoLoco
10-08-2016, 06:33 AM
Something must not be translating properly, or the #1 thing you are testing is knowing what two seconds is? Perhaps it was designed for targets that turn, presenting themselves only for the fixed amount of time. Hopefully Wayne or Darryl can clarify.

Set a 1.7s par time on the timer and give yourself a .3s overtime to stay in 2s.

Clobbersaurus
10-08-2016, 08:46 AM
Yeah, kinda not getting the point of the overtime penalties either. Unless they are maybe wanting to test the shooters ability to make decisions about shoot, no/shoot situations during the firing process?

I had a stage like this in my last IPSC match on timed Bill drills at 25 yards and 12 yards SHO, both to be shot under 6 seconds. I took a penalty on the SHO portion on the last shot. I broke it just over the par time. Pissed me off.

Wayne Dobbs
10-09-2016, 10:14 PM
A point of clarification:

There is no grace period, but if you've made hits inside the 2.0 seconds time frame and then fire a shot or shots past that time, they don't get counted in your hit count UNLESS you fired a miss overtime, at which point you just scored nothing. It's not a "put on the brakes" drill, but a drill to establish a dead certain performance pace as to accuracy and speed. If you fired your first shot at 2.1, you get the zero. Hope this helps...

backtrail540
10-10-2016, 12:23 PM
So if you go over but all get all your hits in the b8 black then you count the hits under two seconds as your score? Or if there is anything ot then zero?

Clobbersaurus
10-10-2016, 01:46 PM
A point of clarification:

There is no grace period, but if you've made hits inside the 2.0 seconds time frame and then fire a shot or shots past that time, they don't get counted in your hit count UNLESS you fired a miss overtime, at which point you just scored nothing. It's not a "put on the brakes" drill, but a drill to establish a dead certain performance pace as to accuracy and speed. If you fired your first shot at 2.1, you get the zero. Hope this helps...

Makes sense now, thanks for clarifying.

Mr_White
10-10-2016, 02:05 PM
Equipment used (pistol, holster, optional concealment garment if one was used): Gen3 G34, concealed in a Keeper under a polo shirt
Score on String 1: 6
Score on String 2: 5
Score on String 3: 5
Score on String 4: 4
Grand Total Score: 20
Pass or Fail: PASS
Anything you noticed: I shot it before Wayne posted his clarification that overtime hits are not a fail or score of zero, which I thought they were. So I backed off significantly more in the video to be SURE there would be no overtime shots. I might do it again if I get the chance - there was definitely room for another shot or two in a couple of the strings.


A point of clarification:

There is no grace period, but if you've made hits inside the 2.0 seconds time frame and then fire a shot or shots past that time, they don't get counted in your hit count UNLESS you fired a miss overtime, at which point you just scored nothing. It's not a "put on the brakes" drill, but a drill to establish a dead certain performance pace as to accuracy and speed. If you fired your first shot at 2.1, you get the zero. Hope this helps...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vgtVpqBkbM

MVS
10-11-2016, 07:01 PM
Gen3 G19 w/RMR, Fricke Holster, t shirt concealment.

String 1 4
String 2 1
String 3 5
String 4 1

Total 11

Noticed; A lot. Obviously my draw is still slow. The biggest problem seemed to be mental. I finished my draws from the holster with plenty of time for a second shot, but didn't take it. Also finished my 3 yard from the ready with time for another shot that I didn't take. Part of my problem with the slow draw remains getting on the dot quickly. After the DOW 185 I ran the Gunsite 499 drill and did fine at 10 yards and beyond but up close with a two second par time for 4 shots and two targets I was too slow. One more area to work.

MDS
10-11-2016, 11:08 PM
Equipment used (pistol, holster, optional concealment garment if one was used)

Gen3 G19, Keepers AIWB, under button-down and t-shirt


Score

String 1: 3@1.92 +1@2.27 Fail
String 2: 2@1.81 Pass
String 3: 3@1.82 -1miss Fail
String 4: 1@1.79 +1@2.12 Fail


Grand Total Score: 9
Pass or Fail: Fail
Anything you noticed: marking time while shooting is ... awkward

Wayne Dobbs
10-12-2016, 09:49 PM
Equipment used (pistol, holster, optional concealment garment if one was used)

Gen3 G19, Keepers AIWB, under button-down and t-shirt


Score

String 1: 3@1.92 +1@2.27 Fail
String 2: 2@1.81 Pass
String 3: 3@1.82 -1miss Fail
String 4: 1@1.79 +1@2.12 Fail


Grand Total Score: 9
Pass or Fail: Fail
Anything you noticed: marking time while shooting is ... awkward

See my clarifying post above. Only string 3 is a fail. String 1 scores 1; string 4 scores a 1.

MDS
10-12-2016, 10:30 PM
See my clarifying post above. Only string 3 is a fail. String 1 scores 1; string 4 scores a 1.

Ah! I didn't bother to read the whole thread before doing the drill. I'll correct my post now. Thanks! (ETA: can't edit old post, but "let the record show...")

Casey
10-16-2016, 08:15 PM
Equipment used: HK VP9 + SF XC1, JM Custom IWB v1, button front shirt (buttoned), Freedom Munitions 115gr new
Score on String 1: 6 at 1.99, pass
Score on String 2: 2 at 1.84, pass
Score on String 3: 3 at 1.76, fail
Score on String 4: 1 at 1.75, fail
Grand Total Score: 8
Pass or Fail: Fail
Anything you noticed: My draw to a low percentage target is slooooooow. Like painfully slow. A 1.75 draw at five yards? Get outta here! Something to work on. Also, I almost never practice starting a string from the ready. Definitely need to incorporate that into my practice regimen.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/924/xdeXpv.jpg

BaiHu
10-19-2016, 11:16 PM
G3 G19 from JMCK AIWB under polo. S&B 115gr
1st round
1. 1.75 2 (trigger freeze cost me-I should have powered through to 3) PASS
2. 1.83 2 (-1 out) FAIL
3. 1.86 2 PASS
4. 1.94 2 (-1 out) FAIL
Total 8 FAIL

Never having done this before, I ran it again:
2nd round
1. 1.95 3 PASS
2. 1.84 3 PASS
3. 1.73 2 PASS WIMP!!! I should've powered through! I blame Mr_White for the confusion! Even though I read the thread, I still kept thinking I needed to 'know' when 2 secs were up.
4. 1.84 2 PASS
total 10

I noticed that I did dramatically better on the second round even if I still wimped out. Drills like this are what I need to push myself. Sometimes, although I'm a speed freak, I'm too conservative.

Mickey
10-21-2016, 08:33 PM
Beretta M-9 with Safariland GLS

String1-2
String2-1
String3-2
String4-1
Total- 6

I haven't spent enough time dry firing the Beretta so my index isn't spot on with it just yet.
11240

DEG
10-22-2016, 11:12 AM
VP9 vs P30 LEM - Fight!

Equipment used: HK VP9, CCC Shaggy, JMCK single mag holster, pullover fleece cover garment

String 1: low ready @ 3 yards, pass, 3 (1.62)
String 2: concealed @ 3 yards, pass, 2 (1.89)
String 3: low ready @ 5 yards, pass, 3 (1.83)
String 4: concealed @ 5 yards, pass, 1 (1.74)

Total shots = 9; all pass; total time = 7.08 sec

11242

Equipment used: HK P30 LEM, CCC Shaggy, JMCK single mag holster, pullover fleece cover garment

String 1: low ready @ 3 yards, pass, 3 (1.61)
String 2: concealed @ 3 yards, pass, 2 (1.68)
String 3: low ready @ 5 yards, pass, 3 (1.79)
String 4: concealed @ 5 yards, pass, 1 (1.68)

Total shots = 9; all pass; total time = 6.76 sec

11243

I want so badly to include an outrageous statement like "this clearly proves the LEM is faster than a striker pistol" but I'll pass :cool:

Clobbersaurus
10-23-2016, 06:00 PM
Equipment used. Girsan, 124g remanufactured 9mm, OWB competition gear.

1) 6
2) 5
3) 5
4) 2 :mad: I had a really slow draw: 1.5 and a .35 split for the second shot at 1.85, then shot three more shots into the black over time.

Total score: 18
Pass or fail: PASS

Observations: There is definitely room for more shots in some of those strings. My groups were nicely tight so I probably could have pushed on the gas a bit.

scw2
10-28-2016, 09:32 PM
Ran this with a CZ 75 SP-01, but unfortunately no holster due to range restrictions. Modified by shooting from a compressed ready similar to the position I'd take when drawing and joining both hands to the gun. Ready position was high ready.

String 1 (from high ready): 1.11 on first shot, and 1.91 sec on 5th shot

String 2 (modified ready position, simulating draw from holster): First shot 1.29, second shot 1.70 sec

String 3: First shot at 1.63 and 2nd shot at ?? 3rd shot overtime

String 4: 1st shot at 1.32, 2nd at 1.60, third overtime but was thrown low and out, which means I failed this drill.

11360

I noticed the unfamiliar ready position made me shoot way slower due to differences in building grip and getting the sights on target. I noticed similar things working from low ready on other drills since it's not something I work on much in either dry or live fire. Also felt like I shot overly conservative from many of the strings and could have gone faster, though I did throw one shot out of the black in spite of the slow shooting.

WobblyPossum
10-29-2016, 11:44 PM
G19 in a DSG AIWB holster under a Duluth fleece jacket for the holstered strings.

3 yards from low ready: 4 hits, Pass
3 yards from holster: 3 hits, Pass
5 yards from low ready: 3 hits, Pass
5 yards from holster: 0 hits (I flubbed the draw and fired one shot at 2.08s. It was a hit)

I retried string 4 and scored one hit within the time limit.

I rarely practice wearing a thicker jacket which is bad because we have 5 months of winter here. Many of my draws this session were substantially slower than they are when concealing under a shirt or a very light sweater.

My "Plan A" for winter coats is a Ruger LCR in the hand warmer pocket because I know I'll be trying to draw around multiple layers to reach my AIWB primary.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dagga Boy
10-30-2016, 01:17 AM
Just for clarification....

What we call low ready and what others call it can be a bit different.

At HiTS, Low ready means that no part of the muzzle covers no part of the body and is generally pointed towards the ground well in front of the base of the possible bad guys feet.

Contact Ready is where you are covering some portion of the body between the bottom of the feet to the top of the head. It is where you can justify what is basically an assault based on the actions of the person you are covering with a muzzle. How much and where you cover is situation dependent as to what you need to see.

Part of what we use the Two Second Standards for is for our students to understand time. Many find that the gains from a true low Ready to a Contact Ready are not that great, yet the gains from a holstered start to a Ready start are quite significant....and there is a lesson there we want to get through.

scw2
11-07-2016, 09:53 PM
Tried this again since last time wasn't done from concealment, and wanted a better comparison to the 2nd part of this drill. Shot with my CZ 75 SP-01 from AIWB CCC Gestalt with polo for concealment. Shot from low ready for strings 1 & 3, and from the holster for strings 2 & 4.

String 1: 3 hits
String 2: 3 hits
String 3: 2 hits
String 4: 1 hit

Total = 9 hits, all clean - passed!

From 5 yards I shot a bit conservatively, especially coming from the holster. Possibly too much, but was trying to guarantee hits. Need more dedicated work on draws in general, both speed and speed to more precise targets. I did better focusing on my grip shooting from low ready, which was a weak spot last time I shot this.

11538

Noticed slight drift in shots low/left, but overall okay.