Bullpups rock! The SA80 is awesome!

[LittleLebowski]

Or not. What happens when you ask one of our SMEs (Failure2Stop) on this subject?

The systematic crushing of internet gun commandos' bullpups hopes and dreams, that's what (http://rationalgun.blogspot.com/2011/11/actual-friggin-data-on-sa80.html).

[TCinVA]

...but, hey! It's made in England, (well, some of it is, anyway) and everything that's made in England is awesome!

[Joe in PNG]

This is what happens when people who really don't know about guns, and frankly don't like them all that much, design guns. The SA80 is a bit like a slash fic written by a teenager- lots of theoretical stuff that doesn't really work like that in real life.

[TCinVA]

IMO, and I'm not an expert by any stretch, the only decent bullpup out there is the AUG...but even the AUG isn't great.

It's telling that when you look at the world's Tier 1 units, a whole lot of them use the AR pattern weapons rather than whatever their larger armed forces use.

[Odin Bravo One]

Yeah, not a big fan.

One more thing to mention, since I was unfortunate enough to watch it happen............if you get a bad round, run through a bad gun, and the God's decide to have your gun explode, that wonderful Bull-Pup design has that mechanical explosion taking place next to your face. Not my guy, not my organization, so I passed on pictures (not my place), but it was not pleasant. The young man who lost a good portion of his face was fairly handsome before the accident, and apparently quite popular with the ladies.

Traveled all that way to serve his country, and the free world, only to have his deployment and service cut short by his Bull-Pup stock removing the right side of his face. He will never completely heal from that, and there is only so much cosmetic surgery can do. Truly a shame. And the reality is he is lucky to be alive. That gun is unforgiving.

[Al T.]

SAS loves the SA........

Oops. :o

ARs....

[BWT]

Yeah, not a big fan.

One more thing to mention, since I was unfortunate enough to watch it happen............if you get a bad round, run through a bad gun, and the God's decide to have your gun explode, that wonderful Bull-Pup design has that mechanical explosion taking place next to your face. Not my guy, not my organization, so I passed on pictures (not my place), but it was not pleasant. The young man who lost a good portion of his face was fairly handsome before the accident, and apparently quite popular with the ladies.

Traveled all that way to serve his country, and the free world, only to have his deployment and service cut short by his Bull-Pup stock removing the right side of his face. He will never completely heal from that, and there is only so much cosmetic surgery can do. Truly a shame. And the reality is he is lucky to be alive. That gun is unforgiving.

You know that's a great point, we had an AR blow up at the last month's Carbine Match (I didn't make it, I won't until it works again until it works around to me getting the 3rd Saturday off), pieces of the upper receiver, etc, blew off, that could launch directly into the user in an Bull pup.

Heck it's bad enough in an traditional rifle.

[Tamara]

Video games have made things worse in giving people a false sense of familiarity, but it existed before that.

I remember how disappointed I was when I first got my hands on an MP-40 and an StG-44. "Ew! These aren't sexy and hi-tech! They're crappy and heavy!" :o

The StG-44 especially was a revelation. I'd only seen them in pictures and in the hands of toy soldiers, but I'd handled my friend's ChiCom AK (this was, like twenty-mumble years ago) so I was pretty sure I knew what the StG was going to be like... :rolleyes:

[Kyle Reese]

I'll have to FWD this to a Brit colleague. :D

[Chris_S]

Video games have made things worse in giving people a false sense of familiarity, but it existed before that.

It does lead to incredibly entertaining chains of logic. I used to work QA for a large video game company and I was the resident guy who answered questions related to whether or not guns were animating properly and so forth. Sometimes I'd get asked non-game questions, such as the time I got asked by a programmer, in complete seriousness, "Why did the army get rid of the M14? That thing is a laser in Call of Duty!"

Object oriented programming: easy
Remembering that video games are poor representations of reality: apparently harder than C++ but probably easier than FORTRAN

[will_1400]

RE the M14:

Back in basic, I was issued a "trainer rifle" (M16A2 w/o any kind of FCG made by the legendary arms giant known as Olympic Arms). I distinctly remember hearing some of my wingmen in both mine and my brother flight bitching about how heavy the rifles were. Then in the same breath they'd say that they wanted M14s because "they at least got smackdown power". Of course these were also the same guys who deliberately put Icy-Hot on their own balls...



I just can't help but think that if bullpups were such great weapons, that weapons like the M16/M4, G36, SIG 55X series, etc, would have been replaced en masse long ago. Since that hasn't happened, I would call that a clue.

[fuse]

Of course these were also the same guys who deliberately put Icy-Hot on their own balls...


Clearly I am in the wrong branch..

[LOKNLOD]

Remembering that video games are poor representations of reality: apparently harder than C++ but probably easier than FORTRAN

:D That got a genuine chuckle from me...

It is amazing that video games have become so realistic and detailed that people are judging reality by comparison, instead of the other way around.


--Josh H.

[will_1400]

Clearly I am in the wrong branch..

Oh, that's par for the course. Another guy decided to put menthol shampoo on his nuts and forgot about it being there. Next thing we know, we're hearing screaming coming from the latrine and the entry controller goes to check it out. EC then comes literally crawling out of the latrine, laughing so hard at the moron that he couldn't even walk.

[Al T.]

Back in basic, I was issued a "trainer rifle" (M16A2 w/o any kind of FCG made by the legendary arms giant known as Olympic Arms).

In which country did you do your basic training? Does "FCG" stand for "fire control group" AKA the trigger assembly?

[will_1400]

In which country did you do your basic training? Does "FCG" stand for "fire control group" AKA the trigger assembly?

I'm USAF, so Lackland AFB in Texas. Yes, FCG stands for fire control group. Basically it had a trigger and selector, but where the hammer, sear, etc would be was solid aluminum. The only time I handled an actual rifle was during our "qualifications" and that was a beat-to-shit A2 with 100 rounds: 50 for sighting and fam fire, 50 for the "qualification". I'm using quotes because they basically passed anyone who didn't flag another trainee with their rifle or fire on burst since we were only allowed to shoot on semi.

[Joe in PNG]

Guys, having read the comments over at Caleb's, I think we're on the wrong track about the SA80, and bullpups in general. Yeah, Failure2Stop, LittleLebowski, and Caleb may THINK they know something about shooting guns (especially that Failure2Stop guy), but who are you going to trust about shooting rifles anyway? Because, OAL, man, OAL is the main thing that makes rifles good, yeah? Who needs adjustable stocks, the ability to do fast reloads, good triggers, balance and all that crap when you can have SHORT OVERALL LENGTH!!! KUZ SHORT OAL IS KING, BABY!!!1

Oh, and the ability to shoot one handed, right? Can you shoot your M4 one handed like you could a Kel Tec KSG (I don't have a Kel Tec KSG, but if I did, I totally could!)???!1 Uh huh, I thought so!

[/mall ninj4]

[JAD]

A friend of mine soldiered in the RAF. During a visit to KC, I took him to the range and let him run my Colt a little. After the fourth mag, he said, "I guess we won't be retaking Boston anytime soon."

[PPGMD]

It does lead to incredibly entertaining chains of logic. I used to work QA for a large video game company and I was the resident guy who answered questions related to whether or not guns were animating properly and so forth. Sometimes I'd get asked non-game questions, such as the time I got asked by a programmer, in complete seriousness, "Why did the army get rid of the M14? That thing is a laser in Call of Duty!"

I routinely shoot my AR-15 with a can, as it is a shorty and it otherwise very loud. More then once when people come in ask me about it some kid pipes up that "'Silencers reduce the power and accuracy." They won't believe me when I tell them that modern suppressors tend to do the opposite, making the gun more accurate (unless you have some barrel harmonics issues which would've been above this kids understanding) and very slightly increasing the FPS in most cases.

I then explain that many of the changes made in games are done for game play reasons, otherwise higher level players with silencers would have an overwhelming advantage over lower level players that haven't unlocked them yet. Now I noticed in BF3 they make a good excuse as to why silencers on the guns make them less powerful, subsonic ammo. You know except for the fact that few use subsonic ammo in automatic rifles.

Anyways it is a double edged sword. Because of video games, more kids who weren't otherwise exposed to guns try them out. But they also get many wrong impressions, like the Desert Eagle err I mean Deagle, or the USP (which become very popular after Rainbow Six).

[Tamara]

...but, hey! It's made in England, (well, some of it is, anyway) and everything that's made in England is awesome!

My friend Marko (a Bundeswehr vet from back when they carried the manly G3 instead of the plastic popgun they issue now) likes to say that he wouldn't trust the English to build anything larger or more mechanically complex than a hat.

[Odin Bravo One]

My friend Marko (a Bundeswehr vet) likes to say that he wouldn't trust the English to build anything larger or more mechanically complex than a hat.

Ouch.

[Kyle Reese]

My friend Marko (a Bundeswehr vet from back when they carried the manly G3 instead of the plastic popgun they issue now) likes to say that he wouldn't trust the English to build anything larger or more mechanically complex than a hat.

Heh.... The truth hurts...

[TGS]

My friend Marko (a Bundeswehr vet from back when they carried the manly G3 instead of the plastic popgun they issue now) likes to say that he wouldn't trust the English to build anything larger or more mechanically complex than a hat.

Ha! Even at hats, they fail (http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2011/05/princess-beatrices-hat-the-royal-ebay-auction).

The Brits had some kick-ass weapons in World War I and II. The Enfield rifles and Bren LMG, namely. They even supplied the Confederacy with a marksman rifle with effectiveness out to 1000 meters during the American Civil War. Shame.

[Korenwolf]

This all reminds me of a quote I once heard:

"The pieces falling from this car are of the finest British craftsmanship."

[Joe in PNG]

Yeah, but I still want an Austin Healy Bugeye Sprite!

[agent-smith]

Yeah, but I still want an Austin Healy Bugeye Sprite!

Good choice!!! My dad and I restored a 1959 Bugeye when I was in high school. Well, he did the "restoring" and I sanded here-and-there and held the flashlight.

[Chuck Haggard]

My friend Marko (a Bundeswehr vet from back when they carried the manly G3 instead of the plastic popgun they issue now) likes to say that he wouldn't trust the English to build anything larger or more mechanically complex than a hat.

And yet, the Brits did just fine with things like the Spitfire when they had to get into it with the Germans.

I'm half Kraut, I can talk smack if I so choose.


Anyway, the SA80 is to be expected coming from a society that killed off it's gun culture and then decided to go and invent a new gun.

[agent-smith]

And yet, the Brits did just fine with things like the Spitfire when they had to get into it with the Germans.

The Brits also brought us Accuracy International - when they get it right, they REALLY get it right.

[Failure2Stop]

While we merrily chastise the SA80 I want to make it very clear that the men I worked with over there were some of the bravest, toughest, most loyal and honorable professional warriors I have ever been afforded the opportunity to work with. Their primarly blaster is a cluster, and one of the big reasons I despise it so much is that those carrying it deserve the best that money can buy.

[Tamara]

How the Brits have managed to maintain their traditions of military excellence despite being decades further down the road to Nerfville than even the softest parts of the US is probably worth a doctoral thesis in and of itself.

I'd wager that an all-volunteer force and strong regimental traditions probably have a lot to do with it, but there's got to be more to it than that.

[TR675]

My understanding of the Brit military is that it is a professional military rather than a volunteer military - by which distinction I mean that while most US troops sign up for limited stints, the Brits, both enlisted and officers, tend to view their service more as a career.

My understanding is based on "some thing I read somewhere sometime ago" which I believe was from a reliable-ish news source, but if anyone has real knowledge or experience to enlighten me further I would appreciate hearing it.

[Chuck Haggard]

those carrying it deserve the best that money can buy.

Word!

[Tamara]

The Brits had some kick-ass weapons in World War I and II. The Enfield rifles and Bren LMG, namely. They even supplied the Confederacy with a marksman rifle with effectiveness out to 1000 meters during the American Civil War.
One of the most fascinating weapons I own is a Webley autoloading pistol.

Bear in mind that this weapon was designed back during the day when magazine cutoffs in rifles were the norm, as rapid fire was something you held in reserve for final protective fire when the Fuzzy-Wuzzies were overrunning your positions.

With this pistol, the magazine has two catch holes. If you secure it via the upper one, so that the magazine is not all the way inserted, it locks back after every shot, with the slide catch being tripped, not by the follower of the empty mag, but by the absence of a loaded cartridge in the feedway. In other words, it knows when the gun is empty whether there's a magazine in the gun or not.

Apparently, while the heathen foe was some distance from your breastworks, you would drop individual rounds through the ejection port to inspire your men with your calmness and, when the wogs started climbing over the mealy-bag wall, you could seat the magazine fully and go to magazine-fed rapid fire.

The discipline of which that speaks is staggering.