M&P or HK 9mm?

[richiecotite]

All right,

Bit of a conundrum I'm in. I've been a big fan of the M&P's and have shot one form or another consistently for the last 3 yrs and some change. Started off with the 45's (FS and C) and decided to save money, I would switch to 9mm. Went through a few 9's (5" pro, FS, CORE) and currently I have 1 FS 9, 1 40 with 9mm conversion barrel, and a 9c. All three guns are setup pretty solidly to me (sights I can see and shoot ok, 'nice' triggers). I have a bunch of magazines and spare parts, and luckily all the spare parts are interchangeable.

This past year I ended up with a couple of HK's, a VP9 and a p2000sk. I am extremely pleased with the VP9, I shoot it noticeably better than the the full size 9, especially at distance, but slower. The p2000sk carries well, but it's the DA/SA version, and the trigger sucks (I get a bit of triggerguard pinching my trigger finger as well) and the it's just a smidge too small to get a full grip like I can get on the 9c. From my understanding, there's not a lot that can be done to a p2000 trigger compared something like a USP. I have my preferred holster for all the guns I have.

I currently shoot IDPA every couple of months, but next year I plan on shooting one match per month, maybe getting into USPSA, and at least one shooting class.

The 9c is my edc, and I am very happy with it. To me it's the perfect size, big enough to shoot well, and small enough to disappear on body. If I didn't like the 9c as much as I do, this choice would be much easier and I'd just buy another VP9 and call it a day.

If I go HK, that means I'll be buying at least one more gun, and a few months of saving before I get it. If I go M&P, I'd trade the sk for another 9c.

[Luke]

P2000 to carry and VP9 to game. Convert the P2000 to LEM.

[breakingtime91]

All right,

Bit of a conundrum I'm in. I've been a big fan of the M&P's and have shot one form or another consistently for the last 3 yrs and some change. Started off with the 45's (FS and C) and decided to save money, I would switch to 9mm. Went through a few 9's (5" pro, FS, CORE) and currently I have 1 FS 9, 1 40 with 9mm conversion barrel, and a 9c. All three guns are setup pretty solidly to me (sights I can see and shoot ok, 'nice' triggers). I have a bunch of magazines and spare parts, and luckily all the spare parts are interchangeable.

This past year I ended up with a couple of HK's, a VP9 and a p2000sk. I am extremely pleased with the VP9, I shoot it noticeably better than the the full size 9, especially at distance, but slower. The p2000sk carries well, but it's the DA/SA version, and the trigger sucks (I get a bit of triggerguard pinching my trigger finger as well) and the it's just a smidge too small to get a full grip like I can get on the 9c. From my understanding, there's not a lot that can be done to a p2000 trigger compared something like a USP. I have my preferred holster for all the guns I have.

I currently shoot IDPA every couple of months, but next year I plan on shooting one match per month, maybe getting into USPSA, and at least one shooting class.

The 9c is my edc, and I am very happy with it. To me it's the perfect size, big enough to shoot well, and small enough to disappear on body. If I didn't like the 9c as much as I do, this choice would be much easier and I'd just buy another VP9 and call it a day.

just shoot and carry a 9c if you are happy with. if you really need to grab another 9c and regulate your full size to a dedicated home defense gun. p2000sk with a lem trigger is a great gun and mine with a lem trigger is completely acceptable.

[richiecotite]

P2000 to carry and VP9 to game. Convert the P2000 to LEM.

Tried the p2000 and hated shooting it (it was LEM)


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[Phrog107]

Always tough to answer a "which gun" thread, just because everyone is so different in what they like.

In my ideal world, my carry pistol would dictate what my training and competition pistols are. If I was to start over, that's the way I would do it, having the mentality that training and competition are there to support what I decide to carry. So to that point, if the M&P9c is your choice (and it's a fine choice really), than I would stick to the M&P's. Especially if you don't like the trigger in the p2000sk. Life is too short to shoot a crappy trigger.

[john c]

I'm going to split the baby, and suggest you ditch the sk and carry your M&P9c. Shoot the VP9 in competition.

My rationale is that the VP9 and M&P are very similar pistols. Both are striker fired, and have similar grip angles. While training would not be exactly parallel to training on the same platform, the extra training will matter to use of the M&P. Keep a log, and find out if it helps or hurts you. If/when the VP9sk comes out, consider a change from the M&Pc.

I think the P2000 and VP9 are different enough that training on one will not necessarily directly translate to performance on the other.

[OnionsAndDragons]

I'm going to split the baby, and suggest you ditch the sk and carry your M&P9c. Shoot the VP9 in competition.

My rationale is that the VP9 and M&P are very similar pistols. Both are striker fired, and have similar grip angles. While training would not be exactly parallel to training on the same platform, the extra training will matter to use of the M&P. Keep a log, and find out if it helps or hurts you. If/when the VP9sk comes out, consider a change from the M&Pc.

I think the P2000 and VP9 are different enough that training on one will not necessarily directly translate to performance on the other.

This would be my inclination. I would ditch the 2 full sized M&Ps. Use that to put toward a second M&P9c and a second VP9.

I still have hope we may see a VP9sk one day. I also have hope that someone may start a lucrative enterprise in chopping down VP9s to take P2000/USPc mags...

[tsf1225]

I am extremely pleased with the VP9, I shoot it noticeably better than the the full size 9, especially at distance, but slower.


You could also get an APEX barrel for your M&P 9 full size and see if that evens out the accuracy difference between the two.

[spinmove_]

You could also get an APEX barrel for your M&P 9 full size and see if that evens out the accuracy difference between the two.

Eh, maybe if you have an extra $200 that could potentially not fix the problem. Or he could move to the VP9 that he knowingly likes which doesn't have accuracy issues and simply drive on. Personally I'd do the M&P9c/VP9 combo. Yeah, mag compatibility would be nice, but what good is that if one of your two pistols doesn't really work for you in either M&P or HK pairing?

[LorenzoS]

I found great improvement in my shooting when I selected one platform and standardized onto it. Switching between striker and hammer, DA/SA vs LEM, paddle vs button mag release was creating more distraction than I realized. Simpler logistics for spare parts, magazines, etc. was another benefit.

In my case I'm on the HK LEM, with a P30 at home and P2000SK for carry. There are times when another gun might have an advantage in a specific performance category but for me the benefits of monogamy are a bigger advantage overall. I'd say pick one that you like better and stick with it.

[David S.]

I am extremely pleased with the VP9, I shoot it noticeably better than the the full size 9, especially at distance, but slower.

Have you confirmed that your M&P's are acceptably accurate "at distance"? If you are satisfied with the guns performance, I'd say rock what you got.

You're already set up and transitioning guns is expensive.

Spend that money on a class with John Murphy (https://www.fpftraining.com/) or those Green Ops guys (https://www.green-ops.com/).

[11B10]

This would be my inclination. I would ditch the 2 full sized M&Ps. Use that to put toward a second M&P9c and a second VP9.

I still have hope we may see a VP9sk one day. I also have hope that someone may start a lucrative enterprise in chopping down VP9s to take P2000/USPc mags...



RE: the VP9SK - has there ever been any real information about that possibility - or is it just dreaming on our part?

[David S.]

RE: the VP9SK - has there ever been any real information about that possibility - or is it just dreaming on our part?
---------------

Do any of ya'll expect a VP9SK before Jan?


This is not an official answer; call it a hunch. I wouldn't wait around for a VP9SK, at least in the timeframe you are talking about.

[Beat Trash]

I would go wit the M&P9c and the VP9 if I were you.

I work for an agency that has issued between 1,100 to 1,200 M&P9's since the first three pre-production prototypes showed up as T&E guns in around 2006ish. One thing about the M&P system is that if you use the full size 17 round magazine as a spare for the M&P9c, it is possible to bend the ejector in the gun rendering the gun unserviceable until the part is replaced. This is done when inserting the new magazine with enthusiasm, as when the shooter is under pressure or under stress. (Kind of like one might be when being shot at and having to do a reload...) I was standing next to a friend who is a Homicide Detective when he bent his third ejector in about 11 months. He walked off the range and traded the issued compact for a full size M&P9 on the spot.

Because of my experiences, I would not/do not feel comfortable using a full size 17 rd magazine for the M&P compact for this reason. So to me, that negates the common magazine argument. As for parts, the main wear parts are the springs. The most expensive spring is the guide rod assemble, which is not interchangeable between the full size and compact M&P's anyway. The rest of the springs are dirt cheap.

I've owned a VP9 since I was first able to get my hands on one. I can shoot my VP9 at a much higher level than I can any of my full size M&P9's. When I retire in about 26 months, my full size M&P9 will also retire and my VP9 will be what I take out any time I want a full size 9mm.

If you like carrying the M&P9c then I would stay with it. For me, the M&P9c has an odd grip length. Too short or too long, depending on what I'm wanting it to do. But it's a great gun.

If you like shooting the VP9 and can shoot it better than your full size M&P9's, then dump the M&P9's and go forth with the VP9.

[richiecotite]

Have you confirmed that your M&P's are acceptably accurate "at distance"? If you are satisfied with the guns performance, I'd say rock what you got.

You're already set up and transitioning guns is expensive.

Spend that money on a class with John Murphy (https://www.fpftraining.com/) or those Green Ops guys (https://www.green-ops.com/).

For reference;10 rounds, 25 yards offhand, NRA B8 target:

9c - 8 shots in the black (8 ring or smaller), 2 in the white (7 ring),
VP9 - 9 or all shots in the black
FS 9 - 6 shots in the black, 2-3 in the white, 1-2 off paper

I', satisfied what I can do with the 9c and VP9, as I'm reasonably sure it's the Indian and not the arrow. The FS 9, not really pleased with it past 15 yards.

I took a class with Murphy a few years back, and took a pistol class Green Ops a couple of months ago. Will definitely be checking in with both as time and money and allow. A wife that works 60 hrs a week with constant travel + 2 young kids with multiple activities + NOVA traffic and commute = not much time or money to take shooting as seriously as I would like to.

*edit* thats disappointing to hear about the vp9sk. If they released that, I'd have no doubts and be all in that VP goodness.

[RJ]

*edit* thats disappointing to hear about the vp9sk. If they released that, I'd have no doubts and be all in that VP goodness.

Just to give you something else to think about (:cool:) the Walther PPS M2 is a small single stack 9 that shoots like the VP9. It has a gadget-like thing at the back of the slide, push button mag releases and is very comfortable to shoot.

The only drawback I've had is that for it's size and mag capacity, it is a little on the heavy side (21.1 oz, 6 7 and 8 roud mags). I've got 900+ rounds through mine with 0 malfunctions.

I feel for ya, as I have a 2013 M&P FS9 with the Apex DCAEK, the VP9 and the Walther. I am now trying to make the VP9 work for carry, and have a JM CK IWB 3 on the way from Tony. If that works, my VP9 will be both carry and game gun. If not, I may try an IWB 3 for the PPS M2.

If that doesn't work, then i may investigate the P30SK route. I am in two minds about running the VP9 for games and a P30SK LEM for carry. I just do not think I've got enough experience/shooting ability to switch back and forth effectively, hence trying to go down the striker route (VP9/Walther) exclusively, if they will work for carry.

Swapping guns is expensive, and I already have three. I don't want to sell any, given political future uncertainty. My M&P has 3,000+ rounds through it, and sits bedside with a full magazine of Speer GD 124 HPs.

[psalms144.1]

Another vote for dumping the M&P FS, keeping the 9c, and the VP9. The accuracy you're seeing with your FS would, in my world, make it a gun I would never trust to do what I need in extremis (and definitely not competition ready). I don't think the 9c and the VP9 are that dissimilar that training with both is an insurmountable issue. I don't like the idea of mixing action types, though many do it successfully, so I wouldn't spend a lot of time trying to fight the DA/SA to match your proficiency with the striker fired pistol.

Of course, that's just my opinion, and worth exactly what you paid for it...

[Talking Monkey]

I would consolidate down to the 9c and the VP9. Use the 9c for carry and IDPA CCP division. Use the VP9 for SSP or USPSA Production. Personally, I don’t have much experience switching back and forth from a paddle to push-button mag release. It may very well not be an issue, but if it is, you might consider also ditching the VP9 in favor of something like a PPQ M2 5” for gaming. Similar ergos to the VP9, but with a push button mag release like the 9C.

[richiecotite]

Another vote for dumping the M&P FS, keeping the 9c, and the VP9. The accuracy you're seeing with your FS would, in my world, make it a gun I would never trust to do what I need in extremis (and definitely not competition ready).

In case it wasn't totally clear, I suck at shooting 25 yd groups. Especially indoors.


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[psalms144.1]

In case it wasn't totally clear, I suck at shooting 25 yd groups. Especially indoors.I wouldn't say that, based on your shooting with the VP9. The dramatic drop off with the 9FS isn't the indian, I'm guessing, it's a bent arrow...

[JonInWA]

I have a low round count VP40, not a VP9, and I've deliberately stayed away from the M&P, due to my satisfaction with Glocks and the seemingly ongoing low-grade drama surrounding the M&Ps, particularly the 9mm variants regarding accuracy and component replacements.

I would recommend going with the HK VP. I think that it is at least as, if not more, ergonomic than an M&P, has a higher level of tailor-ability due to the 6 side panels and 3 backstraps, and comes with a light, very short resetting trigger.

While anything pretty much beyond basic field stripping and perhaps slide disassembly requires an engineering bent and skill-set, HK seems to design the thing (and correspondingly manufacturers them with very high-quality materials) so that much beyond field-stripping is unnecessary.

Best, Jon

[CCT125US]

In regards to group size, what sights are on the various guns? Little things start to matter at 25yds.

[GJM]

Smith and Wesson seems to primarily make products to enhance the next quarter's bottom line. If it will sell, it is a good product, period.

With HK, sometimes I wish they would think about what they could make to impact the next quarter, but engineering and production seems independent of sales.

[richiecotite]

In regards to group size, what sights are on the various guns? Little things start to matter at 25yds.

That absolutely could be part of it.

I have factory installed night sights on the VP9, hackathorns on the 9c, and a 10-8 tritium front (.125) and ameriglo factory rear (.165 or .180)


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[KeithH]

just shoot and carry a 9c if you are happy with. if you really need to grab another 9c and regulate your full size to a dedicated home defense gun. p2000sk with a lem trigger is a great gun and mine with a lem trigger is completely acceptable.

Do you like that V2 LEM trigger? I can't find one to try. Every P2000 and P30SK I picked up today was DA/SA V3 only. Really wanted to try the light LEM V1 trigger on a P30SK.

[RJ]

Do you like that V2 LEM trigger? I can't find one to try. Every P2000 and P30SK I picked up today was DA/SA V3 only. Really wanted to try the light LEM V1 trigger on a P30SK.

FWIW: I have zip for experience, but I tried a buddy's Lite LEM P30SK last year.

He was visiting from out of town, and had it with him on the trip. He said he had it up for sale, and let me shoot it for a few magazines.

I liked the grip, and the overall feel of the gun in my hand.

What I could not get my hand wrapped around was the lonnng trigger pull and overall lightness. Pressing the trigger just kept going, and going....and going, before the break.

Mind I was shooting it alongside my VP9, which felt like a staple gun afterwards.

Anyways, I concluded I did not have the depth of experience to switch to the LEM yet, with a VP9 as a game gun, so I moved on from considering the P30SK as a carry gun, and bought the Walther PPS M2.

[Talionis]

If you can get past the implication of bias since I compete for HK and carry a VP9 daily, I'll throw my own view in the mix. I have over a year's worth of experience carrying and shooting with relative frequency (15-30k rounds per year) both the M&P9FS and the VP9, and no longer own the M&P.

My own experience was that the M&P wouldn't group worth a damn, before or after it went in to S&W CS for a replacement barrel. My own example went from an at best 5.5" capable gun at 25 down to a 4.5" capable gun at 25. There were other issues that I had to sort through with that gun, including some reliability problems, that ultimately led me to selling it and getting back into Glocks for a while. I started carrying the VP9 before hearing about HK's reboot of the competition team, and liked it enough to start gaming with it too.

I found that the VP9 carried better than the M&P9FS, and about as well as my G19, despite the longer grip length. As for the M&P9C, I think that is a much better option than the full size M&P, IF you actually have a need for the smaller footprint of the compact gun. For me it wasn't small enough to fill a really deep concealment roll, so there wasn't really a reason for me to carry that size gun vs. my normal full size or J-frame when circumstances demand.


Use the 9c for carry and IDPA CCP division. Use the VP9 for SSP or USPSA Production.

Just pointing out for those that want to game the edges of CCP, the VP9 has a 4.09" barrel, so it squeaks in just under the maximum allowable 4.10" barrel length in CCP.

[RevolverRob]

Have you tried carrying the VP9 as regularly as you do the 9c? When one gets a carry gun they like, they tend to find immediate fault with something new, that's not necessarily a bad thing, but you may have to give it the "old college try" to get somewhere with it. In my experience, the 9c isn't appreciably smaller than a Glock 19 or VP9, a smidge here and there can make all the difference to you and your concealed carry position/choice/etc though. But what you might do, is just put the 9c in the safe for a month or so and go all in on the VP9. You may discover after a few days, you really can't stand it, but you might discover the opposite that the VP9 works just fine in 90-99% of your daily carry roles and you don't notice it any more than you did your 9C.

All that said, if you're sold on the 9C as your carry gun, when not just sell stuff off and buy a spare 9C and spend the remaining cash on ammo and training. If you're finding your accuracy is nearly on par between the 9C and the better shooting VP9, sending bullets down-range in the compact gun you're packing daily will be the best money well spent. If you intend to compete to win in USPSA or IDPA, you're going to have to ultimately go to a dedicated gaming gun.

-Rob

[LSW]

I tried to switch from M&P's to H&K (P30) a few years back but it didn't take. The LEM trigger (even the light LEM) was still much worse than a stock M&P trigger IMO. On the internet, the M&P trigger gets trashed while you don't hear too much about the H&K trigger, probably because most HK's are the DA/SA. There was no way I could get split times close to the M&P with an LEM trigger without a lot of work. The M&P is good. Test your M&P from a rest at 25 yards to make sure it doesn't suffer from tolerance stacking inaccuracy issues, especially if it's an M&P 9mm. I had to send one of my M&P 40's back because it was having inaccuracy problems, sent it back to S&W, they gave it a new barrel, and I can average < 4" groups at 25 yards with it now (before it was about 7").

I don't have experience with the VP9, so can't really speak to it. People seem to say it has a good trigger. I had to put a lot rounds down range on the USP 40c LEM (with the 8 pound trigger) and a personal P30L with the light LEM and just couldn't learn to love them. The H&K's are safe queens now and I still shoot and compete with M&P's, despite all their accuracy faults. I've tested all my M&P's and they average less than 4" groups at 25 yards, supported, which is good enough for me, and are 99.9% reliable. The only problem I've had with my M&P's recently is the slide stops blowing off, which while not a show stopper, is annoying. I also prefer the button style magazine release to the H&K euro-lever style. I also don't understand why H&K seems to have smaller magazine capacities than competitors.

I will say my H&K's are more mechanically accurate, at least 20-30% more accurate than M&P's (3" vs 4" groups at 25 yards).

[JAD]

I also don't understand why H&K seems to have smaller magazine capacities than competitors.

Pardon my Horschack moment but I know this one. It's because they're better at designing magazines.

[MGW]

If you can get past the implication of bias since I compete for HK and carry a VP9 daily, I'll throw my own view in the mix. I have over a year's worth of experience carrying and shooting with relative frequency (15-30k rounds per year) both the M&P9FS and the VP9, and no longer own the M&P.

My own experience was that the M&P wouldn't group worth a damn, before or after it went in to S&W CS for a replacement barrel. My own example went from an at best 5.5" capable gun at 25 down to a 4.5" capable gun at 25. There were other issues that I had to sort through with that gun, including some reliability problems, that ultimately led me to selling it and getting back into Glocks for a while. I started carrying the VP9 before hearing about HK's reboot of the competition team, and liked it enough to start gaming with it too.

I found that the VP9 carried better than the M&P9FS, and about as well as my G19, despite the longer grip length. As for the M&P9C, I think that is a much better option than the full size M&P, IF you actually have a need for the smaller footprint of the compact gun. For me it wasn't small enough to fill a really deep concealment roll, so there wasn't really a reason for me to carry that size gun vs. my normal full size or J-frame when circumstances demand.



Just pointing out for those that want to game the edges of CCP, the VP9 has a 4.09" barrel, so it squeaks in just under the maximum allowable 4.10" barrel length in CCP.

So are you competing with a VP9?