Week 183: Draw and Shoot Challenge

[Mr_White]

Week 183: Draw and Shoot Challenge

Results may be posted until October 23rd, 2016.

Designed by: Gabe White
Range: 7 yards
Target: USPSA Metric or IDPA target with added CNS zone - see below
Start Position: Holstered
Rounds Fired: 34

These are some short and simple drawing and shooting sequences that we'll use as a quick test. Let's see how well you can do in terms of accuracy, consistency, and speed!

First, set up your target. Use an IDPA target or USPSA Metric target. Alternatively, you can use another silhouette target as long as it has a similarly-sized A/-0 zone in the body. Whatever target you use, add a 3x5 or similar (4" circle, etc) to the head for use as a CNS zone. If you want to use the upper A-zone on a USPSA Metric target, that's fine, though it is a bit smaller than the intended CNS zone.

Start with your handgun loaded and holstered. Concealment is optional but it will come into play during scoring. Your hands can be hanging naturally, at a high torso position, or at a surrender position - shooter's choice. Extra shots are not allowed. Record your time and score your target after each string. A/-0/3x5 zone hits are no penalty. B/C/-1 zone hits are + 0.25 seconds each. D/-3 zone hits are + 1 second each. Misses are + 2 seconds each. Head shots that land in the body count as misses. Body shots that land in the head are lucky shots and will be scored. Each string you shoot from concealment gets a 0.25 second bonus (subtraction) from your score - this is simply an attempt at roughly equalizing concealed and open carry.

Example 1: You are not using concealment, and you shoot String 1 (Bill Drill) in 2.75 seconds with 5 As and 1 C. Your score would be 3.00 seconds (2.75 + 0.25 for the C.)

Example 2: You are shooting from concealment, and you shoot String 3 (Failure to Stop) in 2.25 seconds with 2 As and 1 B (inside in the head but outside the CNS zone.) Your score would be 2.25 seconds (2.25 + 0.25 for the B, but - 0.25 for the concealment.)

Example 3: You are shooting from concealment, and you shoot String 7 (4 body 2 head) in 4.50 seconds, with 2 As, 2 Cs, and 2 Bs (inside the head but outside the 3x5/CNS zone.) Your score would be 5.25 (4.50 + .50 for the two Cs, + .50 for the two Bs, but - 0.25 for the concealment.)

Here's the actual drill:

String 1: At the beep, draw and shoot 6 rounds to the body (Bill Drill.)
String 2: Repeat String 1.
String 3: At the beep, draw and shoot 2 rounds to the body and 1 round to the head (Failure to Stop.)
String 4: Repeat String 3.
String 5: At the beep, draw and shoot 2 rounds to the head.
String 6: Repeat String 5.
String 7: At the beep, draw and shoot 4 rounds to the body and 2 rounds to the head.
String 8: Repeat String 7.

Please report the following when you post your results in this thread:

Equipment used (pistol, holster, optional concealment garment if one was used)
Target used
Time, penalties, and total score for String 1
Time, penalties, and total score for String 2
Time, penalties, and total score for String 3
Time, penalties, and total score for String 4
Time, penalties, and total score for String 5
Time, penalties, and total score for String 6
Time, penalties, and total score for String 7
Time, penalties, and total score for String 8
Grand Total Score of all strings together
Anything you noticed

Training with firearms is an inherently dangerous activity. Be sure to follow all safety protocols when using firearms or practicing these drills. These drills are provided for information purposes only. Use at your own risk.

[Mr_White]

More comments and background on this DotW here:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2751-Mr_White-s-Training-Journal-Mind-Driving-the-Vision-Vision-Driving-the-Gun&p=504949&viewfull=1#post504949

[Clobbersaurus]

It's great to see these as a DOTW!

[Sadmin]

I like this collection of drills a lot. These plus The Test and finishing with some 25y slow fire really rounded out today's trip.

First time out with a new purchase: Steyr M9-A1. I hastily ordered a holster from Etsy of all places and man... It really killed my draws. It sits very low and is extremely tight. Besides that, I am more than very surprised of how much I like this pistol.

I only recorded the 1st passing attempt, attempt 2, on mistake, but will update this post when I shoot it next weekend with my standard ccw. Onto find some kydex that doesn't blow for this gun.

Geco 124gr /Steyr m9/ concealment from a holster made by a teenage girl on etsy.. I think.

Bill: 3.17
F2S: 2.38
2H: 2.3
4B2H: 3.47


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160925/fc5f5df642bc8b35b4e682dbb4223ec7.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160925/4fee325a057f900d854442d9d12017bf.jpg


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[GAP]

Glock 26 Gen 4 - JM Custom IWB3 - 8" circle, 3x5 index card

1 - 2.90
2 - 2.92
3 - 2.36
4 - 2.39
5 - 1.91
6 - 2.10
7 - 3.30
8 - 3.19
Total - 21.07

Transitions from body to head felt good, still pulling some bill drills low.

[backtrail540]

Glock 17 rtf2 concealed under a polo in a Dark Star Gear aiwb
uspsa with 3x5 in headbox

Bill 1 - 3.07 clean/ 1.8, .3, .25, .25, .25, .22 - minus .25 for concealment= 2.82
Bill 2 - 2.67 clean/ 1.6, .26, .23, .19, .2, .19 - minus .25 for concealment= 2.42

Failure drill - 2.3 1c/ 1.56, .31, .43 - 1c +.25 minus .25 for concealment= 2.3
Failure drill 2 - 2.39 1c/ 1.59, .34, .46 - 1c +.25 minus .25 for concealment= 2.39

2 headshots - 2.46 1b/ 1.95, .51 - 1b +.25 minus .25 for concealment= 2.46
2 headshots 2 - 2.36 clean/ 1.8, .56 - minus .25 for concealment= 2.11

4b2h - 3.31 1c/ 1.63, .3, .29, .28, .4, .41 - 1c +.25 minus .25 for concealment= 3.31
4b2h 2 - 3.48 clean/ 1.7, .26, .26, .28, .38, .6 - minus .25 for concealment= 3.23

Total time - 21.04


I fouled the draw on the first bill drill so that cost me some time. Other than that it felt pretty good. My very last split on the 4b2h was super long, no trigger freeze just took a long time to make the shot mentally. Those are all pretty good times for me. I have been working solely from a JMCK wing claw for the last few weeks and I got used to the slimness of it but a friend wanted to borrow it before he bought one(he loved it and is placing an order soon) so I pulled out the old DSG. It is set up with full belt wedge and felt HUGE, enough so that I had to get used to the feeling of having my index finger so far out from my belt line compared to the flatter wing claw. I should have adjusted the wedge before leaving but just ran with it. A few draws and I was back in business but I did have to reacquaint myself initially. Other than that a pretty fun day.

[jdesro]

S&W M&P 9mm, JMCK OWB holster, no concealment

USPSA w/ 3x5 index card


String 1: 3.91 1C +.25= 4.16
String 2: 4.78 no penalties
String 3: 3.02 no penalties
String 4: 2.89 no penalties
String 5: 2.81 no penalties
String 6: 2.79 2B +.50= 3.29
String 7: 4.87 +1C= 5.12
String 8: 4.29 no penalties

Total time: 30.36

Anything you noticed: I'm slow as molasses :(

https://c6.staticflickr.com/9/8084/29928099965_d9a1a3d5dc_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/MADkrx)IMG_0302 (https://flic.kr/p/MADkrx) by John (https://www.flickr.com/photos/38080719@N08/), on Flickr

[Clusterfrack]

Gun: Sig P320 GGI
Holster: USPSA production rig
Target: USPSA metric with 3x5 card
Score:
1. 2.15 clean
2. 2.21 clean
3. 1.88 clean
4. 1.72 clean
5. 1.71 1B (+.25) = 1.96
6. 1.71 clean
7. 2.94 clean
8. 3.00 clean
Total: 17.32 + 0.25 = 17.57s

Good drill. I shot it pretty conservatively despite the relatively low penalty of a shot outside the A zone. I guess it's the stress of trying to meet the Turbo standard? Missed it by a second.

[Mr_White]

As you can imagine, I have been shooting this set of drills quite a bit, because yay fun!

---

Equipment used: Gen3 G34, concealed in a Keeper under a polo shirt
USPSA Metric, but scored it like the CNS box was a 3x5 though I was too lazy that early in the morning to actually put one on the target...

Time, penalties, and total score for String 1: 2.02 (6A) - .25 = 1.77
Time, penalties, and total score for String 2: 2.05 (5A1C) - .25 + .25 = 2.05
Time, penalties, and total score for String 3: 1.61 (3A) - .25 = 1.36
Time, penalties, and total score for String 4: 1.62 (2A1C) - .25 + .25 = 1.62
Time, penalties, and total score for String 5: 1.72 (2A) - .25 = 1.47
Time, penalties, and total score for String 6: 1.69 (2A) - .25 = 1.44
Time, penalties, and total score for String 7: 2.63 (6A) - .25 = 2.38
Time, penalties, and total score for String 8: 2.59 (4A1C1B) - .25 + .50 = 2.84
Grand Total Score of all strings together: 14.93
Anything you noticed: Shoulda put up an actual 3x5 card, imaginary one seems kind of wrong...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP1TYbi6hpc

[Mr_White]

Equipment used: Gen3 G34, concealed in a Keeper under a polo shirt
USPSA Metric, too lazy to put up a 3x5 again but I scored it that way.

Time, penalties, and total score for String 1: 1.91 (5A1C) - .25 + .25 = 1.91
Time, penalties, and total score for String 2: 1.91 (5A1C) - .25 + .25 = 1.91
Time, penalties, and total score for String 3: 1.39 (2A1B) - .25 + .25 = 1.39
Time, penalties, and total score for String 4: 1.42 (2A1B) - .25 + .25 = 1.42
Time, penalties, and total score for String 5: 1.55 (1A1B) - .25 + .25 = 1.55
Time, penalties, and total score for String 6: 1.49 (2A) - .25 = 1.24
Time, penalties, and total score for String 7: 2.41 (5A1C) - .25 + .25 = 2.41
Time, penalties, and total score for String 8: 2.41 (6A) - .25 = 2.16
Grand Total Score of all strings together: 13.99


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCCZbEthVzo

[Mr_White]

Tried a slightly different target on this one.

---

Equipment used: Gen3 G34, concealed in a Keeper under a polo shirt
IDPA Target with 3x5 added to head

Time, penalties, and total score for String 1: 2.08 (6A) - .25 = 1.83
Time, penalties, and total score for String 2: 2.13 (6A) - .25 = 1.88
Time, penalties, and total score for String 3: 1.56 (2A1B) - .25 + .25 = 1.56
Time, penalties, and total score for String 4: 1.66 (3A) - .25 = 1.41
Time, penalties, and total score for String 5: 1.54 (2A) - .25 = 1.29
Time, penalties, and total score for String 6: 1.47 (1A1B) - .25 + .25 = 1.47
Time, penalties, and total score for String 7: 2.52 (6A) - .25 = 2.27
Time, penalties, and total score for String 8: 2.45 (5A1B) - .25 + .25 = 2.45
Grand Total Score of all strings together: 14.16
Anything you noticed: COM zone in the body is pretty generous in width.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3itFRH0L4c

[Mr_White]

Last video for now at least. Different target again.

---

Equipment used: Gen3 G34, concealed in a Keeper under a polo shirt
USPSA Metric with 4" circle added to head

Time, penalties, and total score for String 1: 2.04 (6A) - .25 = 1.79
Time, penalties, and total score for String 2: 2.03 (6A) - .25 = 1.78
Time, penalties, and total score for String 3: 1.58 (3A) - .25 = 1.33
Time, penalties, and total score for String 4: 1.56 (1A1B1C) - .25 + .50 = 1.81
Time, penalties, and total score for String 5: 1.44 (1A1B) - .25 + .25 = 1.44
Time, penalties, and total score for String 6: 1.45 (2A) - .25 = 1.20
Time, penalties, and total score for String 7: 2.18 (6A) - .25 = 1.93
Time, penalties, and total score for String 8: 2.42 (5A1C) - .25 + .25 = 2.42
Grand Total Score of all strings together: 13.70
Anything you noticed: I think I like the 4" circle better than the 3x5.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPnXxq-SllU

[Mr_White]

No video of these runs, but I tried a couple different power factors of ammo, as well as a .40, so see what difference it would make for me.

---

Equipment used: Gen3 G34, concealed in a Keeper under a polo shirt
USPSA Metric, 3x5 added to the head for CNS zone
Ammo was 147gr Blazer, running 150pf

Time, penalties, and total score for String 1: 1.93 (6A) - .25 = 1.68
Time, penalties, and total score for String 2: 1.89 (6A) - .25 = 1.64
Time, penalties, and total score for String 3: 1.55 (3A) - .25 = 1.30
Time, penalties, and total score for String 4: 1.57 (2A1C) - .25 + .25 = 1.57
Time, penalties, and total score for String 5: 1.51 (2A) -.25 = 1.26
Time, penalties, and total score for String 6: 1.52 (2A) - .25 = 1.27
Time, penalties, and total score for String 7: 2.21 (6A) - .25 = 1.96
Time, penalties, and total score for String 8: 2.33 (6A) - .25 = 2.08
Grand Total Score of all strings together: 12.51



Equipment used: Gen3 G34, concealed in a Keeper under a polo shirt
USPSA Metric, 3x5 added to the head for CNS zone
Ammo was 124gr American Eagle, running 137pf

Time, penalties, and total score for String 1: 1.92 (6A) - .25 = 1.67
Time, penalties, and total score for String 2: 1.92 (6A) - .25 = 1.67
Time, penalties, and total score for String 3: 1.51 (3A) - .25 = 1.26
Time, penalties, and total score for String 4: 1.48 (3A) - .25 = 1.23
Time, penalties, and total score for String 5: 1.43 (2A) -.25 = 1.18
Time, penalties, and total score for String 6: 1.42 (2A) - .25 = 1.17
Time, penalties, and total score for String 7: 2.25 (5A1B) - .25 + .25 = 2.25
Time, penalties, and total score for String 8: 2.28 (4A2C) - .25 + .50 = 2.53
Grand Total Score of all strings together: 12.96



Equipment used: Gen3 G22, concealed in a Keeper under a polo shirt
USPSA Metric, 3x5 added to the head for CNS zone
Ammo was 180gr Blazer, running 172pf

Time, penalties, and total score for String 1: 1.95 (6A) - .25 = 1.70
Time, penalties, and total score for String 2: 2.01 (6A) - .25 = 1.76
Time, penalties, and total score for String 3: 1.63 (2A1C) - .25 + .25 = 1.63
Time, penalties, and total score for String 4: 1.50 (2A1B) - .25 + .25 = 1.50
Time, penalties, and total score for String 5: 1.57 (2A) -.25 = 1.32
Time, penalties, and total score for String 6: 1.59 (2A) - .25 = 1.34
Time, penalties, and total score for String 7: 2.46 (6A) - .25 = 2.21
Time, penalties, and total score for String 8: 2.40 (6A) - .25 = 2.15
Grand Total Score of all strings together: 13.61

[Clusterfrack]

Nice shooting Gabe. Setting aside the small sample size, it appears that the .40 didn't slow you down very much. Maybe 0.1 to 0.2 on a Bill Drill?

[Luke]

Say it isn't so! Proper grip and stance worked!?


Let's see you do it with a .44mag :cool:

[Mr_White]

.44magLOLnope

Yeah, the .40. I have been on the 9mm bandwagon for years now and I still love it. Gotta say though that the .40 wasn't nearly the boogedyman that I remember. I felt like it took more/different effort to control it at speed, but I really was blown away at the actual numbers seeming so close. Speaking of the actual numbers though, even though my performance with the G22 and G34 look and feel very close, the quick and dirty maths tell me I shot the G34 about 9% better when I did that power factor/caliber experiment.

I bet we would see more difference in one-handed shooting and with targets that were small enough that whatever greater anticipation I have with .40 (I am convinced this is the case for me) would shine through.

[Clusterfrack]

Maybe a G35?

[cheby]

.44magLOLnope

Yeah, the .40. I have been on the 9mm bandwagon for years now and I still love it. Gotta say though that the .40 wasn't nearly the boogedyman that I remember. I felt like it took more/different effort to control it at speed, but I really was blown away at the actual numbers seeming so close. Speaking of the actual numbers though, even though my performance with the G22 and G34 look and feel very close, the quick and dirty maths tell me I shot the G34 about 9% better when I did that power factor/caliber experiment.

I bet we would see more difference in one-handed shooting and with targets that were small enough that whatever greater anticipation I have with .40 (I am convinced this is the case for me) would shine through.

Gabe, the day when you finally get a G35 will be the most important day in the modern USPSA history:)

[Mr_White]

Lol good one cheby

[Clobbersaurus]

Here is a video I did a couple weeks ago shooting these drills based on a discussion Gabe had about them on the Practical Pistol Show. I ran the first drill cold (hadn't shot in two weeks) and shot the other components of the drill back to back.

Equipment Used;
Beretta Elite II
Blade-Tech OWB Holster and competition belt.
9mm 124g Centaur Remanufactured Ammo

I didn't score it the way it was prescribed in this thread, so I'll let the video show the results. I think these are great fundamental skill tests and I intend on running them again to measure progress in the future. Thanks to Gabe for sharing them!


https://youtu.be/z1cA75IRxtM

[Clusterfrack]

Another run for me, this time with:
Glock 19 G4
JMCK AIWB under a polo shirt

Bill
2.32
2.27

F2s
2.24c
2.13 m

2h
2.30
1.99

4b2h
3.16c
3.08

19.49 +2.5 -2 = 19.99

These are the first shots I've put through a G19 in a while. I've decided to switch back to Glock for carry, and it was good to confirm that I can still shoot them ok.

[MVS]

Gen 3 G19 w/RMR in Fricke Archangel. Pullover concealment.
USPSA and 3X5

String 1) 3.61 -.25=3.36
String 2) 2.68 3Cs +.75-.25=3.18
String 3) 2.79 -.25=2.54
String 4) 2.65 -.25=2.4
String 5) 2.41 -.25=2.16
String 6) 2.38 -.25=2.13
String 7) 3.91 -.25=3.66
String 8) 3.87 -.25=3.62

Total= 23.05

Haven't done Bill drills in quite some time and it seemed to show. Those felt really slow.

[Luke]

I really wanted to run this, I couldn't find a index card and it was getting dark so I cheated and shot this using the head box :( told myself I was only using the upper half but none the less, I cheated. I will find my cards and re shoot it. If it makes it any better these were shot cold and at dusk.


Uspsa production rig
Tanfo stock ii
Hand loads

Strong 1. 1.87 clean
String 2. 1.83 clean
String 3. 1.70 clean
String 4. 1.63 + .25 (almost broke the perf lol, threw it right over the top)
String 5. 1.77 clean - bad draw
String 6. 1.53 clean
String 7. 2.57 slooooow but clean
String 8. 2.54 Sloooow but clean

15.44 raw time
15.69 corrected


Things I noticed:
Took my time on the bill drill knowing I could screw up bad there, most BD's have .14 or below splits and this on stayed around .18

Got cocky on the F2S drill and screwed up.

String 7&8 just felt so slow, I know I can do better.

[miller_man]

Finally got to shoot another DOTW. Wish I wouldn't have blown as much but oh well.

USPSA target with index card head.
G19 JM AIWB under t-shirt. All times subtracted .25
Think I have my scoring right.

1)3.61 2C +.50 = 3.86
2)3.34 1C +.25 = 3.34
3)2.76 CLEAN = 2.51
4)2.99 M on H = 4.99 missed a head shot completely, really sucked
5)2.77 1B +.25 = 2.77 just missed high on head shot
6)2.33 1B +.25 = 2.33 missed high on head shot again
7)3.79 1B +.25 = 3.79 SUCKIN ON SOME HEADSHOTS
8)4.00 1B +.25 = 4.00

Total time = 27.59

Meant to take picture of target after, Mr. homeowner came out to shoot with me (his property), got my stuff done and cleaned up. Had just shot some FAST's, having some struggles to make head shots, really need to work on index cards from the draw and under time pressure. Bill drills need big work.

[miller_man]

Strong 1. 1.87 clean
String 2. 1.83 clean
String 3. 1.70 clean
String 4. 1.63 + .25 (almost broke the perf lol, threw it right over the top)
String 5. 1.77 clean - bad draw
String 6. 1.53 clean
String 7. 2.57 slooooow but clean
String 8. 2.54 Sloooow but clean

15.44 raw time
15.69 corrected


String 7&8 just felt so slow, I know I can do better.


Damn bro! Smokin times, those bill drills are fast.

[TAZ]

Ran his exercise today trying to compare a G19MOS w/ RMR to my VP9. Wanted to see what worked better. Unfortunately, I am retarded and tried to do it from memory and forgot about the 2H strings.

All strings shot on USPSA Target w/ 3x5 using S&B 115 and hands at sides.

G19MOS + RMR 06
Raven Phantom

6B: 3.30 -00 3.30
6B: 2.70 -3B 3.45
4B2H: 4.14 -1B 4.39
4B2H: 5.02 -00 5.02 Fumbled draw on this one and lost time.
2B1H: 3.86 -00 3.86
2B1H: 3.33 -00 3.33

Total: 23.35

VP9 + Heine sights. (wide rear notch)
Raven Phantom

6B: 3.68 -3B 4.43
6B: 3.07 -1B 3.32
4B2H: 4.14 -2B 4.64
4B2H: 5.11 -2B 5.61 Had trouble picking up the front sight on this string as I went for the head.
2B1H: 3.52 -00 3.52
2B1H: 3.65 -00 3.65

Total: 25.17

Im surprised that I shot the RMR better than the VP9. 2 weeks ago I was really struggling (its relative) with the RMR and was ready to pull it off. Instead I decided to spend some more quality time dry firing and working on my presentation so I wasnt hunting for the dot as much.

I'm slow and need a LOT of work, but this is a good base line to come back to and quantify progress.

Thanks for posting the exercise.

[JHC]

I shot four of these. These 3 from concealment of a OWB holster concealed by a leather jacket. I shot the fourth round, highly warmed up with the G19/KKM comp a 2nd time without concealment; open OWB.


First one shot nearly cold (only a few shots slowfire prior)

Concealment
G19 KKM Comp Time Penalty .25 deduction Score
Bill Drill 1 2.88 0.75 0.25 3.38
Bill Drill 2 2.86 0.5 0.25 3.11
F2S 3 2.23 0 0.25 1.98
F2S 4 2.12 0.5 0.25 2.37
D2 to H 5 2.05 0 0.25 1.8
D2 to H 6 2.58 0 0.25 2.33
4B - 2H 7 3.4 0 0.25 3.15
4B - 2H 8 3.33 0.25 0.25 3.33



Total penalties 2.0 Score 21.45

[JHC]

Next I shot the Gen 4 G22 from concealment


Concealment
G22 Time Penalty .25 deduction Score
Bill Drill 1 4.02 0 0.25 3.77
Bill Drill 2 3.58 0.25 0.25 3.58
F2S 3 2.9 0 0.25 2.65
F2S 4 2.78 0 0.25 2.53
D2 to H 5 2.66 0 0.25 2.41
D2 to H 6 2.47 0 0.25 2.22
4B - 2H 7 3.94 0 0.25 3.69
4B - 2H 8 3.61 0 0.25 3.36



Total penalties 0.25 Score 24.21

[JHC]

Third I shot the G43.

Concealment
G43 Time Penalty .25 deduction Score
Bill Drill 1 3.02 0.25 0.25 3.02
Bill Drill 2 2.56 0.75 0.25 3.06
F2S 3 2.29 0.25 0.25 2.29
F2S 4 2.41 0 0.25 2.16
D2 to H 5 2.2 0 0.25 1.95
D2 to H 6 2.13 0 0.25 1.88
4B - 2H 7 3.36 0.5 0.25 3.61
4B - 2H 8 3.37 0.5 0.25 3.62



Total penalties 2.3 Score 21.59

[JHC]

Fourth, back to the G19 with KKM barrel/comp but very warmed up by now and NOT concealed.


Concealment
G19 KKM Comp Time Penalty .25 deduction Score
Bill Drill 1 2.46 0.25 0 2.71
Bill Drill 2 2.21 0.5 0 2.71
F2S 3 2.06 0.25 0 2.31
F2S 4 2.13 0 0 2.13
D2 to H 5 1.93 0 0 1.93
D2 to H 6 2 0 0 2
4B - 2H 7 3.01 0.25 0 3.26
4B - 2H 8 2.96 0.75 0 3.71


Total penatlties 2.0 Score 20.76

[JHC]

Impressions

1. The .40 slowed me down but I shot it most accurately with the fewest penalties. Seems obvious that the faster I shot the less my trigger press could keep up QUALITY-WISE with the increasing speed.

2. Concealed and warmed up made a bigger difference on the G19 runs than I expected.

3. My favorite observation - the crazy little G43 is pretty easy to shoot pretty well. It wasn't running too far behind some of those G19 scores.


Gen 3 G19 with KKM comp: 21.45 concealed, cold/chilly? 20.76 warmed up and Open OWB

Gen 4 G22 24.21

G43 21.59

[scw2]

Shot on 9/24. Used CZ 75 SP-01 from concealment, wearing a CCC Gestalt and a polo shirt. Used a FAST target since I didn't have anything else, and the USPSA target was a bit large for the 50 yd range.

Bill drill:
1) 1.71, 0.23, 0.23, 0.23, 0.22, 0.23 = 2.85 C
2) 1.34, 0.23, 0.22, 0.20, 0.23, 0.21 = 2.43 C

Fail to stop:
3) 1.59, 0.40, 0.58 = 2.87
4) 1.49, 0.30, 0.90 = 2.69 - 1B (due to bad grip and shooting anyways)

Two to head:
5) 2.04, 0.81 = 2.85
6) 1.41, 1.09 = 2.50 - 1H

4 to body, 2 to head:
7) 1.59, 0.24, 0.59, 0.27, 0.71, 0.79 = 4.19 - 1B - 1H
8) 1.48, 0.18, 0.25, 0.20, 0.64, 0.59 = 3.38 - H

Observations
-Draw is slow
-Need work on the shots to headbox, both on the draw and transitioning up. Some were shots pulled out of alignment, others were early shots during the up transition.
-The slow draw and issues on the head box was what led me to focus on draws the past week or so. Still need to do more work at some point on the up transitions, which I've done a bit on but not as much. Think that has carryover benefits into gaming since sometimes we got two targets vertically strung out.
-There isn't as much bias low and/or left on the body shots, which is good, but still can see some shots that went that way, so more work to clean up trigger press and strong grip.
-Got a 0.18 split on the body shot, which was a first I believe


11078

[JHC]

Draw is slow? ???? That was some speedy stuff!

[taadski]

Figured I'd drop these scores in here. They were from my runs during Gabe's Pistol Shooting Solutions class last weekend. They were shot during the testing component over the course of the two days. There were some learning points that I thought folks could maybe benefit from.

I was using a duty holster; a Safariland ALS/SLS combo, level III rig shooting a 9mm Sig 226. The targets were USPSA cardboards with a round white head paster added.


Bills:
Run 1: 2.08 5A1C Total: 2.08
Run 2: 2.12 5A!C Total: 2.12

Failure Drill:
Run 1: 1.56 2A1C Total: 1.56
Run 2: 1.57 2A1M Total: 3.57

Two to the head:
Run 1: 1.87 2B Total: 2.12
Run 2: 2.16 1A1M Total: 3.91

Four body, two head:
Run 1: 3.10 6A Total: 2.85
Run 2: 2.95 4A2B Total: 3.20


Thoughts: I was pretty disappointed with my performance on the drill set as a whole. I think Gabe's test does a great job of looking at one's on-demand skills, and I faltered on a couple occasions with my visual patience, not letting things settle adequately. I was actually pretty worked up stepping up and trying to shoot these in front of the group. Much more so than I typically get shooting matches or doing work related demos, etc...

I've found that my vision over the last season+ has really been improving. I'm seeing what's happening as it's going on much more effectively than I used to. But shooting at these speeds, making adjustments mid-string just isn't an option. So if there's an error (like letting the gun overrun the head box transitioning from the body for example :p) I'll pick it up visually as the shot breaks, but, obviously, by then it's too late.

Having time limits or pars has a tendency to push folks in this direction and I think it's a very positive thing for growth, IN TRAINING. The age old question is how adequately one can shift gears to JUST SHOOT THE SIGHTS when the pressure is on. [Big sigh]


t

[Mr_White]

Everyone - I really appreciate you all taking part in this particular DotW! Thanks for letting me see your datas.


Draw is slow? ???? That was some speedy stuff!

scw2 is hitting a bunch of sub-1 second concealed draws in dry practice right now, so if I were going to be so bold as to guess, I'd say he might be experiencing that dry-live fire gap that can be shocking at times. scw2 - keep driving and you are going to get where you're going for sure.


Figured I'd drop these scores in here. They were from my runs during Gabe's Pistol Shooting Solutions class last weekend. They were shot during the testing component over the course of the two days. There were some learning points that I thought folks could maybe benefit from.

I was using a duty holster; a Safariland ALS/SLS combo, level III rig shooting a 9mm Sig 226. The targets were USPSA cardboards with a round white head paster added.


Bills:
Run 1: 2.08 5A1C Total: 2.08
Run 2: 2.12 5A!C Total: 2.12

Failure Drill:
Run 1: 1.56 2A1C Total: 1.56
Run 2: 1.57 2A1M Total: 3.57

Two to the head:
Run 1: 1.87 2B Total: 2.12
Run 2: 2.16 1A1M Total: 3.91

Four body, two head:
Run 1: 3.10 6A Total: 2.85
Run 2: 2.95 4A2B Total: 3.20


Thoughts: I was pretty disappointed with my performance on the drill set as a whole. I think Gabe's test does a great job of looking at one's on-demand skills, and I faltered on a couple occasions with my visual patience, not letting things settle adequately. I was actually pretty worked up stepping up and trying to shoot these in front of the group. Much more so than I typically get shooting matches or doing work related demos, etc...

I've found that my vision over the last season+ has really been improving. I'm seeing what's happening as it's going on much more effectively than I used to. But shooting at these speeds, making adjustments mid-string just isn't an option. So if there's an error (like letting the gun overrun the head box transitioning from the body for example :p) I'll pick it up visually as the shot breaks, but, obviously, by then it's too late.

Having time limits or pars has a tendency to push folks in this direction and I think it's a very positive thing for growth, IN TRAINING. The age old question is how adequately one can shift gears to JUST SHOOT THE SIGHTS when the pressure is on. [Big sigh]


t

Bunch of great thoughts in there taadski!

One thing I'm glad to see work out in the testing is that even with the modest .25 second penalty per shot, it's still enough that Bs and Cs are Not A Good Deal (weren't a good deal in any of my tests/demos either.)

There are definitely some practice and testing dynamics going on with all this. I think you are right - we have to push it in practice in order to get better, but must also have the discipline to HIT when the test is at hand, whatever that is. An eternal challenge I think. And I think the different training approaches different people take in dealing with that dilemma are interesting too.

[jdesro]

Shot this again today and tried to push for a bit more speed. I had a quicker time, but the speed is still something I need to work on.

S&W M&P 9mm, JMCK OWB holster, no concealment

USPSA w/ 3x5 index card

String 1: 2.95 + 1C +.25= 3.20
String 2: 3.03 no penalties
String 3: 3.38 no penalties
String 4: 2.61 + 1B +.25= 2.86
String 5: 2.91 no penalties
String 6: 2.79 no penalties
String 7: 3.96 no penalties
String 8: 3.97 + 1B +.25= 4.22

Total time: 26.10

https://c4.staticflickr.com/6/5687/30244266995_e6a799ef45_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/N5zLTe)IMG_0306 (https://flic.kr/p/N5zLTe) by LORI CHOQUETTE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/129621931@N03/), on Flickr

[BaiHu]

G3 G19 in an earlier JMCK AIWB 115 gr S&B with a Q bottle, so the results will be a bit off given I didn't have a proper target.

Bill 1: 3.05 3A3C -.25 concealment = 3.55 (correct?)
Bill 2: 3.15 6A -.25 cclmnt = 2.90
F2S 1: 2.31 2A1C -.25 cclmnt = 2.06
F2S 2: 2.22 3A -.25 cclmnt = 1.97
2toH 1: 2.06 1A1C -.25 cclmnt = 2.06
2toH 2: 2.09 2A -.25 cclmnt = 1.84
4B2H 1: 3.36 5A1C -.25 cclmnt = 3.36
4B2H 2: 3.50 5A1C 0.25 cclmnt = 3.50

Thoughts:
1. Get a proper target. I think I was erring on the side of pushing more shots out if they weren't close to the Q or the T box, but I'm eye balling here.
2. I did better than I thought I would.
3. I really like these sets of drills.
4. I really hated my first Bill as I just hosed it so bad by mashing the trigger and nearly forgetting I had nubs on my slide.
5. I've been really satisfied with my draws to head or body lately. Hanging around 1.45-1.70 has really built my confidence on first shots.
6. I really need work on sight tracking. It's getting better, but I really notice it going awry when I need to transition up or down.
7. I wish I could go shooting where no one is on the range more often--I get more reliable data on my timer. Although I did have 2 or 3 runs I had to do over as I wasn't that slow or that fast, but I could tell an AR was throwing my timer off.

Please let me know if I scored the above right, as I wasn't sure where/when to deduct .5...

[Mr_White]

Looks right to me, except F2S 1 looks like it should remain 2.31 because of the C.

[BaiHu]

Looks right to me, except F2S 1 looks like it should remain 2.31 because of the C.
Ahhh yes. I C that now [emoji12]

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[BaiHu]

G3 G19 in an earlier JMCK AIWB 115 gr S&B with a Q bottle, so the results will be a bit off given I didn't have a proper target.

Bill 1: 3.05 3A3C -.25 concealment = 3.55 (correct?)
Bill 2: 3.15 6A -.25 cclmnt = 2.90
F2S 1: 2.31 2A1C -.25 cclmnt = 2.31 (fixed-thx for spotting that Gabe)
F2S 2: 2.22 3A -.25 cclmnt = 1.97
2toH 1: 2.06 1A1C -.25 cclmnt = 2.06
2toH 2: 2.09 2A -.25 cclmnt = 1.84
4B2H 1: 3.36 5A1C -.25 cclmnt = 3.36
4B2H 2: 3.50 5A1C 0.25 cclmnt = 3.50

Oops, I forgot total time: 21.49

[Mickey]

I ran this drill a couple of times as an experiment. I ran it with a beretta M-9 and A Glock 19 Gen4.
My hypothesis was that the raw time would go to the glock but the accuracy I'm getting from the M-9 will even it up.

Beretta M-9 in a Safariland GLS holster no concealment

times
String 1- 4.04
String 2- 3.42 +.25= 3.67
String 3- 3.52
String 4- 3.57
String 5- 3.24
String 6- 2.95
String 7- 5.65+ 25=5.90
String 8- 5.69

Total Raw 32.08
Total 32.58

Glock 19Gen4 Safariland GLS holster

String 1- 3.63+ .50= 4.13
String 2- 3.66
String 3- 3.62+.25= 3.87
String 4- 3.85
String 5- 4.21
String 6- 3.84+.25=4.09
String 7- 5.30+ 1= 6.30
String 8- 4.64+.25=4.89

Raw total= 32.75
Total= 35.00

So my hypothesis was 50/50 I was more accurate with the Beretta, but I was faster with the Beretta also.

[MDS]

Equipment used (pistol, holster, optional concealment garment if one was used)

Gen3 G19, Keepers AIWB, under button-down and t-shirt


Target used

PT target, I used the outer circle and 3x5 as A-zone for body and head, the bowling pin outline as B/C-zone, and the IDPA outline as D-zone


Time, penalties, and total score

String 1: 3.76, +.25 (1C), -.25 = 3.76
String 2: 3.78, +0, -.25 = 3.53
String 3: 3.33, +.25 (1C), -.25 = 3.33
String 4: 3.54, -0, -.25 = 3.29
String 5: 2.55, +.25 (1B), -.25 = 2.30
String 6: 2.98, +.25 (1B), -.25 = 2.98
String 7: 4.45, -0, -.25 = 2.20
String 8: 4.56, +1 (1D), -.25 = 5.31


Grand Total Score of all strings together

26.45


Anything you noticed

I slow down when I'm not confident, but I don't slow down enough so I end up in my head in the worst way. I'd probably perform better if I just muscled through, would definitely get better hits if I went slow enough to be confident of each shot.

[backtrail540]

Beretta 92 WCBT concealed under a t shirt in a JMCK AIWB
USPSA metric with a 3x5 in the headbox

parenthesis indicate corrected time for concealment/mikes


Bill 1 - 3.18 1c (3.18)
Bill 2 - 2.83 (2.58)
F2S 1 - 2.45 (2.2)
F2S 2 - 2.4 (2.15)
2H 1 - 2.39 1 b (2.39)
2H 2 - 2.57 1b (2.57)
4B2H 1 - 3.58 (3.33)
4B2H 2 - 3.79 1c (3.79)

Total time - 22.19

I needed some TDA in my life so I took the Beretta out today. I have been shooting purely glocks this year and this was a pleasant surprise. I didn't put up the time I did with the RTF2 gun, I struggled getting my draw dialed in with the beretta which was the limiting factor. Mad anticipation and a slow overall draw still put me a second off my glock times. The beretta is just so easy to shoot well, I put up a better Bill Wilson 5x5 time, passed the 25 yd string of the defoor pistol test which I normally struggle with(dropped one of the credit card hits and was struggling with the draw on the single shot(time over by .12) which kept me from passing unfortunately), and just overall enjoyed shooting it today more than I generally do the glocks. If I had another set of them to train/carry etc...I would shoot them regularly. But alas I do not so it's glocks for the regularly scheduled programming, but this was a fun reprieve. Also I am incorporating the G-Dub standards into my range log and tracking it from now on. The defoor test, GW standards, and 5x5 with a little 3x5 action thrown in made for a nice low round count but fun session.

[WobblyPossum]

Equipment: Gen3 G19 with Ameriglo I-Dot Pro sights. Dark Star Gear AIWB holster with the Raven wing. Concealed under a closed button up shirt.
Target: IDPA target with a 3"x5" index card glued in the head box

Raw time+Penalties-Concealment bonus= Adjusted time
String 1: 3.38+.5 (two -1 hits)-0.25 (concealment)= 3.63s
String 2: 3.43+0.25-0.25= 3.43s
String 3: 3.07-0.25= 2.82s
String 4: 2.38-0.25= 2.13s
String 5: 2.47+2 (missed headshot)-0.25= 4.49s
String 6: 2.44+0.25-0.25= 2.44s
String 7: 4.20+0.25-0.25= 4.20s
String 8: 3.75+0.75-0.25= 4.25s
Total: 27.39s

I really need to tighten up my accuracy. I only cleaned the two failure drills. The head shot I missed on string 5 hit the very upper edge of the target, just over the perforation that outlines the -1 area. I had .5s of penalties. I also bungled a couple of my draws (string 3 and string 7). Lots of work to do.

[Casey]

Equipment used: HK VP9 + SF XC1, JM Custom IWB v1, button-front cover shirt (buttoned), Freedom Munitions 115gr new
Target used: Q-PT
String 1: 3.24, -.25, 2.99
String 2: 3.17, +.25 +.25 -.25, 3.42
String 3: 3.00, -.25, 2.75
String 4: 2.75, -.25, 2.50
String 5: 2.63, +.25 +.25 -.25, 2.88
String 6: 2.68, +.25 -.25, 2.68
String 7: 4.23, -.25, 3.98
String 8: 3.78, -.25, 3.53
Grand Total Score: 24.73

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/921/Tm7IhR.jpg

First DotW. I think I scored all that correctly. Good set of drills, and a nice change of pace from my usual routine.

[BaiHu]

Felt like running it again:

Bill 1: 3.08 -.25 C = 2.83
Bill 2: 3.12 -.25 -1 = 3.12
F2S 1: 2.59 -.25 C = 2.34
F2S 2: 2.35 -.25 -1B(C) -1H(B) = 2.6
2H 1: 2.17 -.25 C = 1.92
2H 2: 2.25 -.25 C -1 Miss = 4.0 (faster shot than I could get muzzle on target)
4B2H 1: 3.63 -.25 -1B(C) = 3.63
4B2H 2: 3.67 -.25 C = 3.42
23.86 that miss really crushed me ;(

[modrecoil]

Equipment: Steyr L9-A1, Crossbreed SnapSlide OWB holster @16:00, no concealment.
IDPA paper target with 4" head circle

String 1: 3.07
String 2: 2.70 + .25 = 2.95
String 3: 2.33 + .25 = 2.58
String 4: 2.35 + .25 = 2.60
String 5: 2.34
String 6: 2.00 + .25 = 2.25
String 7: 3.69
String 8: 3.40 + .50 = 3.9
Grand Total: 23.38

Thoughts:
- Love the Bill drills. Fast and flat is what Steyrs do well.
- Having trouble picking up sights at speed. Just replaced factory trapezoids with Truglo TFX Pros. Traps were definitely faster to find in dim range lighting. Hope the fiber pays off outdoors.
- Shooting low. All penalties but one were head hits outside CNS. Not surprised since trapezoid sights are different and I'm no longer used to the POA/POI sight picture. Hesitation on strings 7 and 8.
- Drawstroke is muddy. Still deciding if I want to stick with the press-out or keep toying with an escalator draw. Deciding in the middle of presentation is dumb.
- Someday I'll switch to AIWB carry like all the cool kids. ;)

Really need to run this from concealment. Began to but a range commando showed up, threw off my timer and attracted negative attention by shooting from retention and other questionable stuff. I then had a bunch of mental malfunctions, gave up and decided to break in my Canik TPSF instead. Tough to get quality time in an indoor public range.

Overall not awful but not great. Gonna try to run it again this weekend.

Thanks for the fun drill!

[Clobbersaurus]

Gear: Girsan Compact, (92 Centurion Clone) 124g remanufactured 9mm. OWB competition gear.

Target: USPSA lower and upper A zones with a 3X5 card.

1) 2.23 +.25 = 2.48
2) 2.61
3) 2.07 + 2 + .25 = 4.32 :mad:
4) 2.08
5) 1.93 + .25 = 2.18
6) 2.06
7) 2.80
8) 2.92 +.25 + .25 = 3.42

Total time: 21.95

I shot this mostly cold (I ran one bill drill just before I started the test that I messed up the timer on so I had to start over). I haven't shot in three weeks. I really enjoy this test! It's easy to complete and takes a minimum of time and ammo. The miss killed me, it was just over the top of the 3X5 card.:mad:

[Mr_White]

Equipment used: G43, concealed in an Errand under a polo shirt
Target used: USPSA Metric, just used the upper A for CNS zone
Time, penalties, and total score for String 1: 2.69 5A1C, +.25 -.25 = 2.69
Time, penalties, and total score for String 2: 2.52 5A1C, +.25 -.25 = 2.52
Time, penalties, and total score for String 3: 2.17 3A, -.25 = 1.92
Time, penalties, and total score for String 4: 2.07 3A, -.25 = 1.82
Time, penalties, and total score for String 5: 1.95 2A, -.25 = 1.70
Time, penalties, and total score for String 6: 1.90 1A1B, +.25 -.25 = 1.90
Time, penalties, and total score for String 7: 3.33 6A, -.25 = 3.08
Time, penalties, and total score for String 8: 3.28 5A1C, +.25 -.25 = 3.28
Grand Total Score of all strings together: 18.91
Anything you noticed: Fun! I got the Errand for G43 and shot these drills. Just did some dry draws to make sure things were going ok with the holster and then jumped right in. This was the first attempt and first live fire shots with the G43 today. Just tried to shoot fairly carefully.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75d7a8DXhws

[Mr_White]

Equipment used: G43, concealed in an Errand under a polo shirt
Target used: USPSA Metric, just used the upper A for CNS zone
Time, penalties, and total score for String 1: 2.56 5A1C, +.25 -.25 = 2.56
Time, penalties, and total score for String 2: 2.08 4A2C, +.50 -.25 = 2.33
Time, penalties, and total score for String 3: 1.65 2A1C, +.25 -.25 = 1.65
Time, penalties, and total score for String 4: 1.61 1C1D1M, + 3.25 -.25 = 4.61
Time, penalties, and total score for String 5: 1.80 2A, -.25 = 1.55
Time, penalties, and total score for String 6: 1.87 2A, -.25 = 1.62
Time, penalties, and total score for String 7: 2.35 4A1C1B, +.50 -.25 = 2.60
Time, penalties, and total score for String 8: 2.56 5A1B, +.25 -.25 = 2.56
Grand Total Score of all strings together: 19.48
Anything you noticed: Had fun the first time, so tried it again right away, this time pushing it. Gotta say that with the exception the blown failure to stop where I yanked the head shot down into the body, I was pleasantly surprised by the results and feel like I could clean up the shooting if I shoot this gun a little more.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NodrRrtW8Gk