Gun and arm alignment

[breakingtime91]

Thought this could spur some good conversations. How important is it to have the gun aligned with the strong side arm. Is devotion a little to the right or left bad? I ask because I have little hands so any gun that has a long trigger reach I have to physicall shift the gun to the right to get enough finger on the trigger.



Go!!

[JohnO]

Perfect alignment with the shooting side's forearm just about implies Weaver Stance with the head cocked over and the body bladed. I you are shooting modern ISO there typically will be some angle in the wrist relative to the forearm.

Most importantly you need a grip and a stance that allows you to control the gun through recoil and get back on target ASAP. How you achieve that will be specific to your abilities and your physical attributes.

[breakingtime91]

That was my thought but I had someone I used to shoot with mention this to me today. Is it something people just say still or do some people think it has merit with modern ISO?

[JohnO]

That was my thought but I had someone I used to shoot with mention this to me today. Is it something people just say still or do some people think it has merit with modern ISO?

Kind of hard to do. You can get closer as you extend the gun further out but you have to extend beyond your area of maximum control and you will never get far enough out to align perfectly.



https://youtu.be/9aINiaGKj6A
Mike Pannone gives a nice demo on pistol grip and more here. Stop the video right at 2:01 where he shows a top down view of his grip and arm alignment you can see where the axis of the bore is relative to his forearm. Also he give an excellent lecture on Power, Control & Vision.

[ReverendMeat]

I feel like I'm straying out of my lane here but IMO it's better to have a grip that facilitates your ability to manipulate the trigger smoothly than to maintain perfect alignment between the gun and your arm.

[Jay Cunningham]

I think it's probably important for bullseye competition.

[Aray]

That was my thought but I had someone I used to shoot with mention this to me today. Is it something people just say still or do some people think it has merit with modern ISO?

Jay mentioned Bullseye, in that discipline you shoot one handed. That's the hook, when shooting strong hand or weak hand (gasp!) only, aligning the gun with the shooting arm is possible. When gripping the gun aggressively with 2 hands, it just doesn't work that way for most people.

[breakingtime91]

Jay mentioned Bullseye, in that discipline you shoot one handed. That's the hook, when shooting strong hand or weak hand (gasp!) only, aligning the gun with the shooting arm is possible. When gripping the gun aggressively with 2 hands, it just doesn't work that way for most people.

That's what I thought. I remember jay saying years ago it wasn't important for modern iso, was just surprised to hear it from my friend who is a pretty decent shooter. Didn't know people still believed that.

[Clobbersaurus]

IMO, gun alignment does really matter when going really fast. If I get a sloppy grip on the gun out of the holster (by sloppy I mean good solid grip but gun misaligned badly with my wrist/forearm) my index will be off, usually left, especially noticeable in sub 1 second draws to lower % targets in dry fire.

I have been working lately on more consistent hand placement during the draw stroke, especially as it rests beside the OWB holster. It helps to have a properly aligned wrist/forearm before you get a grip on the gun. A better solution also needs to be found with my AIWB holster, but I do find I get a little bit better alignment due to the strong hand thumb being a little more active (still moving towards a complete grip) later in the draw stroke with an AIWB draw. It is a bit slower tbough...

Good discussion!

[spinmove_]

I've personally been examining this from my own perspective for the purpose of improving my own shooting. In trying different techniques to improve and also just see how the biomechanics work vs. a pistol. So my opinions and findings are based on MY perspective for MY needs. I say this as YMMV, obviously.

I think that gun to arm alignment is something that should be maintained regardless of your stance as long as you are able to manipulate the trigger properly. In the case of an ISO stance and grip, yes, your hand does break a straight alignment with your arm vs. if you kept them aligned for SHO/WHO/Bullseye shooting. However, I have noticed that when I'm shooting ISO vs. SHO, my gun still stays in the exact same spot in both scenarios. It's merely the alignment between the hand and the arm that has changed and not necessarily the gun as the gun does not move in that equation. I've found that the gun to arm alignment seems to best facilitate proper trigger manipulation for me.

Now if someone were to align the gun with their arm, but found that they were not able to reach the trigger or were unable to properly manipulate that trigger in some other such way, then I would argue that the hand location would need to change in order for proper trigger reach and manipulation to take place. This will obviously vary from shooter to shooter depending on the gun in question.

TL-DR - I think gun to arm alignment is best used as a function to gauge firearm fit to ensure proper trigger manipulation. In some cases it can help in recoil management, but it is not required as the alignment is circumstantial.

[RJ]

I've personally been examining this from my own perspective for the purpose of improving my own shooting. In trying different techniques to improve and also just see how the biomechanics work vs. a pistol. So my opinions and findings are based on MY perspective for MY needs. I say this as YMMV, obviously.

I think that gun to arm alignment is something that should be maintained regardless of your stance as long as you are able to manipulate the trigger properly.



I'm so far out of my lane that I'm signaling right like crazy, but I like this a lot.

Hopefully related question: Does this relate to the whole turtle-neck head down, both arms locked Iso stance you see on the web in these Panteo/Costa videos? I never could get comfortable doing that.

These days my strong arm is slightly bent, and my support arm slightly more so, when I shoot at the range. I also practice this stance dry practicing, and I see minimal sight movement, as long as I grip tightly and press straight back.

Am I ok doing this?

[Jay Cunningham]

Does this relate to the whole turtle-neck head down, both arms locked Iso stance you see on the web in these Panteo/Costa videos?

I think it's more a vestigial thing that just hasn't yet been put completely to rest for practical pistol shooting... much like "surprise break" trigger control methodology and pinning the trigger.

Note: Ernest Langdon just put out a short little FB/YouTube video yesterday regarding bang/click - go watch it.

[spinmove_]

I think it's more a vestigial thing that just hasn't yet been put completely to rest for practical pistol shooting... much like "surprise break" trigger control methodology and pinning the trigger.

Note: Ernest Langdon just put out a short little FB/YouTube video yesterday regarding bang/click - go watch it.

Based on my personal experience and experimentation, I would have to agree with Jay in general. If shooting with a technique like Chris Costa gives you noticable mitigation in recoil, I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong. However, I've found that with how my physiology works with handling a recoiling pistol that there are other techniques that work measurably better for me.

For much of the past week I was trying to replicate Robert Vogel's ISO technique. Yesterday when I hit the range, I discovered that it didn't work for me. I don't know if it's the fact that I don't have Robert's hands, forearms, shoulders, or was missing some other subtlety in technique, but moving to a technique that is more akin to how Frank Proctor manages recoil worked FAR better for me. It's just one of those things that doesn't come out until you actually put what you're practicing to test with live fire. I guess this is a good example of why you should be confirming what you're practicing in dry fire/dry practice with live fire.

Got a link to that video, Jay?

[Jay Cunningham]

For much of the past week I was trying to replicate Robert Vogel's ISO technique. Yesterday when I hit the range, I discovered that it didn't work for me. I don't know if it's the fact that I don't have Robert's hands, forearms, shoulders

You don't. Not many do.

Robert Vogel is quite the athlete, and his genetics and training regimen work a certain way for him.

Take from him the concept of what he's doing to achieve the why of how it works... not necessarily "a" technique.

[Jay Cunningham]

https://www.facebook.com/ernest.langdon.1/posts/10210382756548489

Not to drag this post OT.

[spinmove_]

You don't. Not many do.

Robert Vogel is quite the athlete, and his genetics and training regimen work a certain way for him.

Take from him the concept of what he's doing to achieve the why of how it works... not necessarily "a" technique.

Actually, I'm glad you responded specifically the way you did. When I was at the range testing this out and it didn't work for me I immediately thought "Jay said to go for a certain GOAL, not a certain TECHNIQUE, you dingus" and then changed my technique to satisfy a set parameter of goals and, voila, it worked. So yeah, thanks for your insight from another thread.

[Jay Cunningham]

Actually, I'm glad you responded specifically the way you did. When I was at the range testing this out and it didn't work for me I immediately thought "Jay said to go for a certain GOAL, not a certain TECHNIQUE, you dingus" and then changed my technique to satisfy a set parameter of goals and, voila, it worked. So yeah, thanks for your insight from another thread.

Awesome!

I'd me interested in hearing details - hit me up with a PM!

[spinmove_]

Awesome!

I'd me interested in hearing details - hit me up with a PM!

PM sent.

[Randy Harris]

There are two different ends of the spectrum with "grip it however and don't worry" and "grip it in line with the bones in your arm" with quite a bit of ways to do it in between. What I try to do and what I teach others is to grip it like gripping a pair of pliers, by using the fingers to pull it straight back into your hand instead of gripping it like a baseball bat with fingers simply wrapped around it.

If I grip it like a bat (or any round cylinder) then the hand takes a different shape and the gun takes a different alignment in the hand. It usually makes a "triangle"with my right arm, the gun and my chest as the legs of the triangle. This has the back strap of the grip more into my thumb joint than into the web of my hand. I can still shoot that way as long as I can see the sights to confirm alignment, but if it is gripped like pliers then it is in line with the bones in my arm (or at least VERY close to it) I can naturally point it like I point my finger and it comes up where I am looking . This is all one handed I'm talking about here.

When you add in the other hand and drive it in front of your chest in an ISO type presentation then there will be a small bit of left to right wrist cant by pointing the right forearm toward the centerline and the right hand having to compensate for that to point the muzzle at the target. If you drive it more under your dominant eye and less to your centerline (assuming you are right eye dominant and right handed ) then much of the wrist cant goes away and your 2 hand presentation (and grip) is much the same as your 1 hand.

Unfortunately there just are not bumper sticker sized answers for questions as complex as how a hand fits a grip since everyone's hands are different and the shapes of different guns' grips are different. I find that focusing on gripping it like pliers gets it as close to "in line with the bones in my arm" as possible.

[JAD]

I shoot better -- fewer errors and more consistently-- when my *initial* grip puts the bore and ulna in a line. If it's important for bullseye shooting, it makes sense that it would be overall beneficial. When I form a two handed stance, it is no longer in line, but it would be if my wrist was straight.

I think there's a tendency to resist this because some people can't grip some guns this way without screwing up their trigger address -- like me with a Gen 3 Glock -- and some people really want you to be able to use their favorite gun.

If the gun doesn't fit and you can change the gun, change the gun. If you can't change the gun, I guess you have to crawl the grip and drive on.

[GardoneVT]

How do we split the line between adopting the finer points of a professional technique while still customizing the specifics for our unique body types?

Example-a shooting grip I get measurable results with using Brand X in Caliber Y may be totally unworkable for someone with smaller arms , shorter hands, and a different handgun regardless of how well it clocks for me.

[Totem Polar]

I shoot better -- fewer errors and more consistently-- when my *initial* grip puts the bore and ulna in a line. If it's important for bullseye shooting, it makes sense that it would be overall beneficial. When I form a two handed stance, it is no longer in line, but it would be if my wrist was straight.

This is exactly what I saw going on at 2:01 of the MP vid.

[spinmove_]

How do we split the line between adopting the finer points of a professional technique while still customizing the specifics for our unique body types?

Example-a shooting grip I get measurable results with using Brand X in Caliber Y may be totally unworkable for someone with smaller arms , shorter hands, and a different handgun regardless of how well it clocks for me.

I think it kinda goes back to what Jay suggests by setting goals of what you want your grip and shooting experience to achieve rather than attempting to replicate x,y, and/or z technique into a final product. Everyone is built a little differently and as such not all techniques are going to work for everyone with every gun at every shooting instance. This is where instruction by a good instructor and self-attained experience come together to form how any one person is able to effectively manage recoil and place quick and precise shots on target. I think being honest with yourself through critical experimentation is key while keeping an open mind.

[Jay Cunningham]

If it's important for bullseye shooting, it makes sense that it would be overall beneficial.

I'm not sure I follow this logic. Can you expound a little?

[JAD]

I'm not sure I follow this logic. Can you expound a little?

Sure. Bullseye shooters shoot good, and I also want to shoot good. If there's a component of that technique that I can use, without comprising other things I need to do in a defensive context, I should try it. I can't really use a nudge defensively. I also can't keep my arm aligned with the bore in a stance that lets me control recoil (I should know, I started Chapman and discarded it). But I can use an aligned grip, as I said, when I initially grasp the gun, and let my wrist break as I form my stance.

With small hands, I struggle to get enough finger (see our earlier thread about PMac's thoughts on more finger) on girthy DAs. It has been suggested that I crawl my grip, clocking around the gun to put more finger in, at the expense of ulnar alignment.

This worked great for trigger control, but jacked up repeatability. The gun recoils unpredictably and I lose the sights more quickly. It is, for me, bad advice. It's what I'd do if I *had* to carry a 92fs, because I'd rather have a good hit than be quick, but since I don't have to, I don't.

[Jay Cunningham]

If there's a component of that technique that I can use, without comprising other things I need to do in a defensive context, I should try it.

Got it! Thanks!

[Exurbankevin]

Neutral Good.

Wait, wrong type of alignment. Sorry. Carry on.

:)

[spinmove_]

Neutral Good.

Wait, wrong type of alignment. Sorry. Carry on.

:)

Well, at least you're not Chaotic Evil. I would have had to roll pretty high bluff and diplomacy checks in order to acertain your whereabouts and then alert the authorities....

[JAD]

Neutral good

:)


Yeah, but I do shoot SHO with a thieves' cant.

[OnionsAndDragons]

I'm so far out of my lane that I'm signaling right like crazy, but I like this a lot.

Hopefully related question: Does this relate to the whole turtle-neck head down, both arms locked Iso stance you see on the web in these Panteo/Costa videos? I never could get comfortable doing that.

These days my strong arm is slightly bent, and my support arm slightly more so, when I shoot at the range. I also practice this stance dry practicing, and I see minimal sight movement, as long as I grip tightly and press straight back.

Am I ok doing this?

I don't think there is anything inherently bad about the tacti-turtle, but I have found I shoot better in a more upright position. With a lighter gun, firing a hotter cartridge than 9mm, that extra lean in can make a real difference to me; but I only shoot 9mm now.

From what I gather, my arm position is similar to what you describe. I stand head upright, shoulders slightly hunched up. I do not lock my elbows, but leave a bit of bend so they act like leaf springs during recoil. In my grip, I put extra pressure from both hands by using my forearms to almost roll my hands into the grip. Put the gun out in front of you in a firing grip and move as to push your elbows up just slightly until you feel your forearm muscles start to tighten.

I'm pretty sure I cribbed the basic idea from something Vogel discussed about his grip, and I've just played with it and found a spot where it is repeatable and works for me. It may not for everyone, but it has improved my recoil control and sight tracking.

[spinmove_]

I don't think there is anything inherently bad about the tacti-turtle, but I have found I shoot better in a more upright position. With a lighter gun, firing a hotter cartridge than 9mm, that extra lean in can make a real difference to me; but I only shoot 9mm now.

From what I gather, my arm position is similar to what you describe. I stand head upright, shoulders slightly hunched up. I do not lock my elbows, but leave a bit of bend so they act like leaf springs during recoil. In my grip, I put extra pressure from both hands by using my forearms to almost roll my hands into the grip. Put the gun out in front of you in a firing grip and move as to push your elbows up just slightly until you feel your forearm muscles start to tighten.

I'm pretty sure I cribbed the basic idea from something Vogel discussed about his grip, and I've just played with it and found a spot where it is repeatable and works for me. It may not for everyone, but it has improved my recoil control and sight tracking.

I envision the "tacti-turtle" as more of a characature of what a shooter should do as a result of leaning into the gun and punching it out towards the target during presentation. I would argue that maybe some people are built in such a way that it appears that they do a "tacti-turtle" as a result of achieving this goal, but are actually not trying to go overboard with it. In the end, if it's comfortable and repeatable for you and it works better, then who am I to argue? But by and large I think it's partly a product of emulating certain shooters based on what they saw in a training video/class instead of knowing how to properly execute what they should do to control the gun.

[Jay Cunningham]

The turtle thing can be detrimental to good shooting for several reasons:


looking through the tops of your eyeballs vs. the center of your eyeballs... shooting is obviously very visual
tendency to lock the elbows straight out.. this directs recoil straight into the shoulders AND also tends to break the grip off the gun high and force it lower
can be harder to breathe with the chin and shoulders and neck in that configuration

[Surf]

I think I may have replied to something similar in the past but it does depend on the type of shooting. Arm / bone alignment in bullseye or even one handed shooting and alignment might be more optimal. IMO with the modern iso type of stances, bone alignment is not ideal. A more neutral alignment of the pistol inline with the dominant eye is IMO a better option than worrying about aligning with the arm bone. When I had a more Chapman like position many years ago, alignment was more prevalent.

For my smaller hand size and preferred trigger finger placement I am nowhere near bone alignment with my preferred grip. If I keep a rigid bone alignment then I have to use muscle tension (bad tension) to torque the pistol straight. This does not as easily create a repeatable track of the pistol through the recoil phase.

As for the tac turtle, don't like it, don't teach it. This IMO is a poor upper body position and also creates what I consider "bad muscular tension" and is something I really try to get shooters out of doing. Once a shooter understands how to more effectively place the weight of the body into the pistol instead of attempting to use what I consider "bad muscle tension" the results are pretty much 100% positive for the shooter.

Many think that Recoil management should come from tension of the upper upper torso as in lats, traps, shoulders and neck. When in reality many who think this use what I consider to be excessive amounts of muscular tension that creates other negative results. There is good tension and bad tension. Bad tension will often end up in the grip, but more so in the trigger finger and that equates to poorer results on target.

Shooters may also think that more bend or forward bias at the waist is correct. While not exactly incorrect it is not optimal if you already have a good bias forward at the waist. The shooter should keep the same upright body position and correct bend at the waist no matter how fast the string of fire. Increased recoil management does not come from increased upper body muscle tension (tac turtle or similar) nor does it come from increasing the bend or forward weight bias at the waist. The increase in forward weight bias and added mass behind the weapon to manage recoil comes from increasing the bend in the leading legs knee. A slight increase in bend or angle at the leading knee puts much greater amounts of body mass forward into the weapon. This allows for the upper body to remain in a more correct position at all times.

Yes we might get more "into the gun" as pace increases, but IMO, if your body position / tension looks dramatically different depending on your strings of fire and how rapid you might be shooting, there is probably a lot of room for improvement.