After an incident...STFU! And yes, that goes for lawyers involved as well! [Archive]

Mitchell, Esq.

11-15-2011, 10:30 AM

Scottsdale Defense Attorney David Appleton Faces Murder Rap After Road-Rage Shooting

"Inconsistencies" in his story about fatally shooting a man during an apparent road-rage incident last night has led to the arrest of Scottsdale attorney David Appleton, who once served as the president of the Phoenix Trial Lawyer's Association..

About 7 p.m. yesterday, Appleton called police to report that he'd shot a man in the parking lot of a Scottsdale pharmacy near Pima and Pinnacle Peak roads.

When police got to the scene, they found Appleton waiting near his Toyota SUV. Also near the SUV was the body of 50-year-old Paul Pearson, whom Appleton admitted to shooting.

Appleton, Scottsdale police say, was cooperative, even as he was taken into custody.

When questioned by police about the shooting, Appleton told detectives he was driving north on Pima Road when he noticed a car tailgating him. He pulled over in the parking lot of a nearby CVS pharmacy to see what the other driver wanted.

Once in the parking lot, the driver of the other vehicle, Pearson, got out of his car, walked over to Appleton's SUV, reached in the open window, and started choking him -- according to Appleton, that is.

The attorney then grabbed a pistol to try and scare Pearson away, but his attacker was unfazed, and continued to choke Appleton.

Appleton then fired one shot, killing Pearson.

Police questioned Appleton for hours and determined his story didn't add up. He was placed under arrest about 1:30 a.m. today.

Appleton was booked into a Maricopa County jail on one count of second-degree murder.

________

Here is a guy who's practiced criminal law for a long time.
Someone who should have known how to talk to the police...

And he had...what's the phrase..."Inconsistencies" in his story...

I'm not going to comment on the justification or castle laws or stand your ground laws of AZ...

But I'm just going to ask this question to those of you who may think about giving a statement in the aftermath of a shooting, (even if you follow the Ayoob/Farnam points) ..."Do you think you can do better in the post shooting statement than a guy who was the former President of a large city's Trial Lawyer's Association?

Wheeler

11-15-2011, 02:10 PM

Being a trial lawyer and all, I'm sure he had made plenty of friends with law enforcement.

Shellback

11-15-2011, 02:13 PM

This goes hand in hand with this thread (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2029-Law-amp-self-defense-instruction). Miranda rights and the 5th Amendment are where I'll stand.

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to speak to an attorney, and to have an attorney present during any questioning. If you cannot afford a lawyer, one will be provided for you at government expense.

VolGrad

11-15-2011, 02:40 PM

I have always been advised there are exactly two things one should say in the aftermath of a shooting incident.

(1) I was in fear for my life.
(2) I would like to speak to my lawyer before commenting any further.

Smaug

11-15-2011, 04:13 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

TGS

11-15-2011, 05:08 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

I already tried posting that video. It's not effective unless people watch the whole thing, and they're not interested in actually watching it beyond the first couple minutes.

SecondsCount

11-15-2011, 05:38 PM

I have watched the video and while it is a bit long, it is still worth watching.

JConn

11-15-2011, 05:58 PM

Yeah, definitely worth watching.

Al T.

11-15-2011, 09:46 PM

Police questioned Appleton for hours and determined his story didn't add up. He was placed under arrest about 1:30 a.m. today.

Here's a thought. Could he actually have done wrong? :p Could the newspaper article have it wrong? :cool:

Dagga Boy

11-15-2011, 10:18 PM

Its impossible for the newspaper account to be wrong..........:rolleyes:

Mitchell, Esq.

11-15-2011, 10:43 PM

Here's a thought. Could he actually have done wrong? :p Could the newspaper article have it wrong? :cool:

Regardless if he did or didn't...he still yapped and it didn't do well for him...

LOKNLOD

11-15-2011, 11:45 PM

Regardless if he did or didn't...he still yapped and it didn't do well for him...

It's a datapoint and a definitely a worthwhile story to keep up with, but like most news item we don't have the full story so I'm hesitant to draw any universal conclusions from it. For him, it looks like he missed a good chance to shut up somewhere along the way.

TGS

11-16-2011, 12:09 AM

It's a datapoint and a definitely a worthwhile story to keep up with, but like most news item we don't have the full story so I'm hesitant to draw any universal conclusions from it. For him, it looks like he missed a good chance to shut up somewhere along the way.

The whole story behind it doesn't really matter. What matters is that it's an example of whatever you say can not help you, it can ONLY be used against you. That's law.

LOKNLOD

11-16-2011, 12:27 AM

The whole story behind it doesn't really matter. What matters is that it's an example of whatever you say can not help you, it can ONLY be used against you. That's law.

I disagree on the point that the context does matter - if he was knowingly in the wrong, and then thought he was smart enough to talk his way out of it, that's a different story than if he just got diarrhea of the mouth after a legit shooting and muddled the facts. I'm not of the camp that you should immediately start penning your memoirs in sharpie on the hood of the nearest car, but there is value in knowing the full story.

Ed L

11-16-2011, 12:47 AM

It was a questionable shooting and a questionable story under questionable circumstances.

We also don't know if the story matched the crime scene and evidence.

From the limited info that I have read, it sounds like the guy pulled over to have a dispute and it escalated and tried to cover it up.

If someone is tailgating you, most people do not pull over to see what they want unless they are wanting to start an argument. If you willingly walk into an argument or confrontation that escalates into a shooting, you are in a bad position. If you are carrying a gun you need to do everything possible to avoid or disengage from any conflicts that remotely have the possiblity of escalating into violence.

Saying nothing under these circumstances would not have helped the shooter. A dead 50 year old unarmed man is not someone who most people would imagine as a threat under the circumstances of the shooting. This isn't to say that a 50 year old unarmed man is not dangerous or under other circumstances he might not appear more dangerous.

Now, imagine the police arrived at the scene and found the cars smashed into each other consistant with the Lawyer being run off the road by the person who was shot. Also imagine that the lawyer's car window was smashed in by the person shot. Completely different circumstances.

J-Pip

11-16-2011, 10:31 AM

JMS

11-16-2011, 11:37 AM

This goes hand in hand with this thread (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2029-Law-amp-self-defense-instruction). Miranda rights and the 5th Amendment are where I'll stand.

Yep, it's really that simple.

From my standpoint....bearing in mind that I'm a law-abiding citizen, like cops, train cops, am friends with LEOs, etc.....in even the most clear-cut self-defense case, it's foolish to depend upon somebody you probably do not know, with a work ethic you have no way to have a read on, to "take your side" or even give you the benefit of the doubt in these instances. Hell, they may even be functionally illiterate, and simply write something down incorrectly, which is just as likely to bite you on the ass as anything else.

I see cops as human beings, ones that have a particular job, but a job nonetheless, and one that absolutely grinds on them at times, given that they spend a lot of time looking up the world's rectum. The result of which being that they may be far, far less interested in seeing "justice" done so much as gotta get this thing cleared off of my case-load. That's putting aside the nature of any pressure their bosses may apply and a host of other intangibles that have their analogues in other jobs, but with far more palpable impact than, say, wasting 4 hours for a cable guy that was supposed to show between 0800-1200. Folks in all walks of life gaff shit off, phone in their work, take the path of least resistance, however one may wish to term it, and all the protestations of that's not how it's supposed to be are wind in the face of human reality. It's not a matter of "we can't trust the cops." It's a matter of "we cannot simply trust that the outcome will automatically be in our favor just because I think I'm right." Big difference.

Keep your trap shut until you have representation and are in as controlled an environment as you can be. In the most callous and heartless way of expressing it.....the other guy's dead, soooo...what's the rush?

That's NOT the same as not cooperating with the police. You can still do that without hanging your junk out on a chopping block and saying "I trust you!"

Al T.

11-16-2011, 03:41 PM

I watched both part 1 and 2 of the video. Very interesting and thank you for posting that. :)

Police questioned Appleton for hours

IMHO, that's pretty key. That's bunch more than "he's the bad guy, there's his weapon and those folks over there saw it all".

Just speculating, but suspect he figured he could out talk the flatfoots. :p

LOKNLOD

11-16-2011, 03:46 PM

It's not a matter of "we can't trust the cops." It's a matter of "we cannot simply trust that the outcome will automatically be in our favor just because I think I'm right." Big difference.

I think that's a good way of saying it, JMS.

I know for many, myself included, we were brought up to have a belief that you do the right thing, and things will work out in the end. We're the good guy, and the good guy gets to win, and gets a pat on the back for being a good guy. A noble thought but not necessarily how things play out in the real world. And when it's your whole life at stake, it's a big risk to take.

nwhpfan

11-16-2011, 03:56 PM

Allot of people plan on what they'll do if they're faced with a deadly force situation. Equally as much people should prepare for what to do afterwards in dealing with the law enforcement response, investigation, and dealings with the DA’s Office. I have personally investigated such incidents and I have talked to the involved. I've talked to people who wanted a lawyer first; and some that didn't. I can tell you that either talking or not can hurt or help depending on your perspective but it’s important to understand each situation is different. Generally it's the facts that either hold someone accountable or exonerate. More often than not a person that uses deadly physical force will have to justify their actions sooner or later. The last and worst place to do so is to a jury with your freedom on the line. If you can convince the cops; the DA; the Grand Jury before it ever gets to that point; all the better. Simply “STFU” is not appropriate in all situations. What if the perpetrator got away and the police asked for a description. What if the perpetrator got away and was running towards a crowded location where people might be in danger? There are many situations where talking to the police; at least a little is appropriate. My advice is not to STFU; it’s to have plan. The best place to start is to do what the Police do; and know the attorneys the Police Unions hire when they shoot people. Those attorneys have actual experience defending use of force in court; have been their when interviews have taken place; have been there for Grand Jury, etc. I would also suggest asking your local police department for a copy of its Deadly Force Procedure. In it you will see exactly what a Police Officer can be required to divulge; like suspect description, etc. Again; be smarter that “STFU” because it’s just not that simple.

Coyotesfan97

11-16-2011, 04:17 PM

From what I've heard some of the inconsistencies Involved were from what 911 was told and what he told the officers. Leading some people here advising not to call 911 but call your attorney to call 911 for you. I'm thinking that could lead to some other issues depending on how long it takes for you to get a hold of your attorney and how long it takes for for him to notify the proper authorities.

Another factor not listed was two prior road rage incidents involving Appleton. One of which he told the operator he was going to display his gun and did so after being told not to. I think the other involved him chasing a motorist to her house. I've tried to find links but I saw it on one of the local news shows and haven't been able to find it in print.

jslaker

11-16-2011, 10:09 PM

If I'm understanding this correctly, the gentleman in question allowed himself to be interviewed for hours without an attorney present.

I understand the people pointing out context, but in what possible way could that act have helped his case?

If all the context is correct, it would make that decision even worse if this man values his freedom.

TCinVA

11-17-2011, 07:50 AM

Having your lawyer call 911 for you?

That doesn't seem terribly practical...not to mention it sound suspicious as all get out.

Dagga Boy

11-17-2011, 09:44 AM

If this guy is going to be the poster child and hero of the cause, you can have him. Road rage issues, the b.s. about being choked (you break a choke from the inside of the car by an unarmed guy outside by using "D" or "R" on the shift column). This should have been a drive away and call 911, not a stop and engage in juvenile b.s. Have your attorney call 911 for you .....Great advice, definitely go with that for plan A. And after your lawyer calls 911 for you, you can just sit there and not say a word-perfect.

jthhapkido

11-17-2011, 09:49 AM

{snip}
I see cops as human beings, ones that have a particular job, but a job nonetheless, and one that absolutely grinds on them at times, given that they spend a lot of time looking up the world's rectum. The result of which being that they may be far, far less interested in seeing "justice" done so much as gotta get this thing cleared off of my case-load. That's putting aside the nature of any pressure their bosses may apply and a host of other intangibles that have their analogues in other jobs, but with far more palpable impact than, say, wasting 4 hours for a cable guy that was supposed to show between 0800-1200. Folks in all walks of life gaff shit off, phone in their work, take the path of least resistance, however one may wish to term it, and all the protestations of that's not how it's supposed to be are wind in the face of human reality. It's not a matter of "we can't trust the cops." It's a matter of "we cannot simply trust that the outcome will automatically be in our favor just because I think I'm right." Big difference.

This +100.

Well said.

Tamara

11-17-2011, 10:04 AM

Based on the data as presented in the news article (and yes, I understand the Gell-Mann effect) homie was goin' to jail no matter how much or little he talked. I don't care how highly-trained and experienced a criminal defense attorney he was, prior to that day's events, he had no more experience in making up lies over a cooling corpse than I do.

nyeti is right on this one.

EDITED TO ADD:

I've been mulling this over as I was doing the dishes...

...Appleton told detectives he was driving north on Pima Road when he noticed a car tailgating him. He pulled over in the parking lot of a nearby CVS pharmacy to see what the other driver wanted.

Seriously? Seriously!?

Guilty!

They'd toss me off that jury faster than you can say "Voir Dire"... :o

rsa-otc

11-17-2011, 03:08 PM

Where's the disparity of force that allows Appleton to use lethal force. As noted earlier move the vehicle or even raise the window. Appleton panicked is trying to make chicken salad out of chicken s***?
. I predict a manslaughter conviction at the very least.

Dagga Boy

11-17-2011, 05:41 PM

Tamara

11-17-2011, 06:46 PM

Don't start back peddling on this.

Back pedal these nuts! :p

I'll say this, however: Had I just grievously fucked up and burned some dude down in an easily-avoided parking lot confrontation, I hope I would have clammed the hell up and lawyered up, not tried to concoct some cockamamie story about how the vic charged me and then mysteriously wound up in a cooling pile away from my vehicle... ;)

TGS

11-17-2011, 06:51 PM

Don't start back peddling on this. I want to be the only one on the evil police side. You guys get the hero CCW holder being screwed by "the man" who just like screwing hero CCW holders. This is a shining example of why you should call your speed dial lawyer to call 911 for you and then your lawyer will come to talk to the stupid police (who just want to screw CCW people) and then you will be set free by the jury because you didn't say a thing and your lawyer saves the day for another guy out CCW'ing and saving the world from tailgaters.

Of course, cause I'm just angry at my jack-booted family of cops and hate all police because of it. That's why I'm not for being chit-chatty mcgee with the cops after I just shot someone(it's illegal to shoot someone), and it's also the reason why I'm submitting applications to be a sworn LEO... :rolleyes: You're all just a bunch of evil thugs, right. Why don't you roll up dirty on my 99% brethren and stomp on our rights. :p

ToddG

11-17-2011, 06:57 PM

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4044/4503035102_38155ae4f8.jpg

Ed L

11-17-2011, 07:22 PM

Did you draw that, Todd?

That's actually very good, especially when compared to my pedestrian drawing ability, which is a Hipoint on a scale measured next to HKs.

People invoke Ayoob. Well, one of the thing Ayoob teaches is that if you are concerned enough about your personal safety to carry a firearm, you need to change your behavior so as to do everything possible to avoid any situations that have the remotest possibility of escalating to violence. This means not initiating any interactions that could possibly escalate into violence and disengaging from any such interactions that you have had in the past.

Pulling over to have words with someone who was tailgating with you is the furthest thing from this, regardless of how you try to spin it. Add these facts to a person who has a history of road rage and Clarence Darrow himself would not be able to stop you from being arrested.

In other news retired Penn state coach Jerry Sandusky claims that he was just applying sunsceen on those kids in the shower..

ToddG

11-17-2011, 07:29 PM

Did you draw that, Todd?

Hell no. Even my squiggly lines look wrong...

Ed L

11-17-2011, 07:48 PM

Okay, Todd, at least you can't outdraw me with pen and paper.

Back to this thread, the fact that someone would trot this incident out as an example of a legitimate self defense shooting or the aftermath of one weakens that person's position.

This is the type of shooting that an antigunner might use to represent their position for limiting gun rights.

Mitchell, Esq.

11-17-2011, 08:34 PM

I didn't trot this out as an example of legit self defense.

I trotted this out as an example of a guy who has spent decades as a word warrior fucking up.

I asked if anyone thought they could do better than the president of a major metro area trial lawyers association could in similar circumstances.

Maybe nothing would have helped him avoid an arrest, but the fact he gave statement indicated to me several things:

He admitted his presence.
He admitted firing the shot which caused the death of another person.
He admitted his interaction with the person prior to the shooting.

In otherwords...

He confessed.

And he's a guy who should know better.

Here's a guy who should know dam well what the score it, who the players are, how things will go in every aspect of the system, so their are no suprises, shocks or "Dam, I thought I could just talk to them and it would be over..." - and he still ended up doing it wrong.

Whatever your shooting will be, you won't be in his league of experience and comfort in dealing with the police.

A lot of times people can make mistakes because they aren't familiar with the situation, or what is happening - not him. Not here.

And he still fucked up handling his situation.

Maybe the subtlty misses people and they are reading into this example what they want to.

It's not about what happened. It's about who it happened to, and with all his expereince dealing with the police and the courts...he still fucked up, and if he can screw up, with all his experience, you can to.

Not saying you will...just saying people can screw up.

Quoting James Yeager - "You can't unsay anything!"

It aint about cops being bad. It aint about them being good. They probably didn't even trap him up, trick him or anything of the sort.

They just let him talk.

This article is about 2 things.

#1 Jessie Abbate is completely stunning. (No, really not on topic, but it's true and I just wanted to share that.)

(OK, this is really about 1 things...)

#1 Even people who do know better can fuck up bad, and do you know as much about the aftermath of a lethal force situation as Appleton should have?

That's it.

Simple as that.

We are not as good as we think we are, and in unfamiliar situations, we will be worse.

If you are trying to bomb proof your skill set, that's the mentality we need to start with, and we need to have a realistic assessment of how good we are at this stuff...and learn from the mistakes of people who have gone before.

Appleton make a mistake he should never have made. (OK, granted he made a bunch of them...but I'm focusing on the statement.)

Learn from his fuckup.

Tamara

11-17-2011, 09:01 PM

Mitchell, Esq.,

Wouldn't a peripheral takeaway lesson from this be "Really, really, really try to avoid winding up in a situation where you could be busting a cap in somebody's ass"? :o

I mean, seriously, I've had people tailgate me a third of the way across Arkansas without ever feeling the desire to pull into a parking lot and "find out what they wanted". If they wanted to talk to me that badly, they could follow me to Indianapolis and tell me about it there.

JeffJ

11-17-2011, 09:10 PM

Yeah, usually my plan is to slowly and passive aggressively slow down and force them to go around me or sit there and be pissed off

Tamara

11-17-2011, 09:27 PM

Yeah, usually my plan is to slowly and passive aggressively slow down and force them to go around me or sit there and be pissed off

I just keep driving. I mean, damn, I'm doing ten over in the right lane; if they don't like it, there's a whole lane or two to my left that is conveniently known as the "passing lane". :o

Al T.

11-17-2011, 09:53 PM

passive aggressively slow down :mad:

Don't know how to be nice about this, but fucking with someone is fucking with some one. If they are weirding you out, exit the interstate, don't turn at the bottom (top) of the exit ramp and re-enter the Interstate. The 5 minute delay probably puts them 7 miles ahead, enjoy your ride.

Ed L

11-18-2011, 12:30 AM

The shooting referenced in this thread is a questionable one that escalated out of an easily avoidable confrontation by someone with a history of such confrontations.

If the lawyer who shot the other party was so savy he should have realized that if this avoidable confrontation that he was pulling over to engage in escalated into a shooting, he was going to have a hell of a time justifying it in court.

Given all of the circumstances, there was no way he wasn't going to get arrested, lawyer or no lawyer.

JeffJ

11-18-2011, 07:39 AM

:mad:

Don't know how to be nice about this, but fucking with someone is fucking with some one. If they are weirding you out, exit the interstate, don't turn at the bottom (top) of the exit ramp and re-enter the Interstate. The 5 minute delay probably puts them 7 miles ahead, enjoy your ride.

It's only fucking with somebody if you are on a two lane road and they don't have an option, I don't do that - I'll maintain my speed and pull over on the shoulder to give them room if possible. On the interstate though, if I'm in the right lane and somebody won't get off my ass and go around then after a decent amount of time I start to slow down, this almost always causes them to go around. FWIW I spend an immense amount of time driving on the highway and I've noticed that most of the folks who run up behind you like that are on their phones or otherwise distracted and a gradual slow down (wouldn't brake-check) will bring them back to reality and the go around.

ToddG

11-18-2011, 08:50 AM

TGS

11-18-2011, 01:11 PM

Al T.

11-18-2011, 01:28 PM

Where I live, we only have two (I-20, I-26)) interstates with in 20 miles. I-77 is the only other one for 60 odd miles. So yeah, I probably am "out of my lane" compared to Dallas.

We also have a pretty decent bunch of folks driving. Not particularly bright bunch, but decent.

So if someone was tailgating me excessively, it would be an unusual event.

TGS

11-18-2011, 02:02 PM

So if someone was tailgating me excessively, it would be an unusual event.

Don't ever move to the DC metro area. You'll die on the inside. It turns good men into cold hearted creatures.

Me personally, I brake check. I've only sent one asshole careening off the highway, the rest ended up okay with scarred egos when they found out they were following too close and indeed wouldn't be able to stop if they needed too. I'll admit it..if you tailgate me, I become a raging prick until you don't. I'd much rather you fly off the highway and catch a tree than possibly kill me when I really do have to slam on my brakes. Tailgating is one of those pet-peeves of mine, one of the things that really tick me off unlike most other things.

But stopping to confront someone? That's bat shit crazy. When I've gotten REALLY ticked off (like someone tailgating me, I put up with it instead of brake-check, and then they pass me, cut in front and slow down) then I just pull over and chill for a few seconds.

Dagga Boy

11-18-2011, 02:47 PM

Don't ever move to the DC metro area. You'll die on the inside. It turns good men into cold hearted creatures.

Me personally, I brake check. I've only sent one asshole careening off the highway, the rest ended up okay with scarred egos when they found out they were following too close and indeed wouldn't be able to stop if they needed too. I'll admit it..if you tailgate me, I become a raging prick until you don't. I'd much rather you fly off the highway and catch a tree than possibly kill me when I really do have to slam on my brakes. Tailgating is one of those pet-peeves of mine, one of the things that really tick me off unlike most other things.

But stopping to confront someone? That's bat shit crazy. When I've gotten REALLY ticked off (like someone tailgating me, I put up with it instead of brake-check, and then they pass me, cut in front and slow down) then I just pull over and chill for a few seconds.

So you are willing to cause an accident and possibly injure somebody (if they can't stop...it may be you and your family) over it? Sending "one asshole careening off the highway" because they bothered your "pet peeve".........what if their pet peeve is people failing to move to the right for faster traffic, would it be okay to run you off the road? If they blinked their lights at you (which is considered a courtesy in other places), would you move, or just brake check them? I had to daily deal with Prius's in the #1 or HOV lane setting their own speed standard regularly......pissed me off as well, but not worth trying to cause an accident over, or have a shooting occur.

This is how bad crap happens to nice people. Sad state of affairs.

TGS

11-18-2011, 04:40 PM

So you are willing to cause an accident and possibly injure somebody (if they can't stop...it may be you and your family) over it?

The point is braking hard enough to make them realize that they're following to close, but not braking hard enough to actually make them slam into you. It's not that hard to do. I don't usually care if people hurt themselves for being stupid, and I'd much rather them hurt themselves than hurt me (or my family). Frankly, if they're following that close and get to the point that they fly off the road from me tapping my brakes, then NO, I don't really view it as my problem. They probably shouldn't be endangering everyone they follow...most people get that concept and give a little bit of room. It's called paying attention and/or courtesy.

Equate that to this shooting, or all the other miseries in the world if you want to. I'm sure you'll take this and run with it, just like you ran with the whole idea that we think cops are thugs out to make us into criminals. Surprisingly, I'm a pretty good citizen(in my eyes) that has volunteered his time to help the community in a few ways, one of which as an EMT. You'll probably be surprised to hear that I'm a pretty considerate driver overall, usually "that guy" that lets people in front of me during traffic only to piss off those behind me because they'll now be 30 seconds later for their Real Housewives episode.

TGS

11-18-2011, 05:40 PM

I thought that was you!http://emoticons4u.com/mad/434.gif

:D

My LL Bean edition subaru outback and I are the scourge of the road.

Al T.

11-19-2011, 09:11 AM

Don't ever move to the DC metro area.

I'll cheerfully take that advice. :p

Drove through DC in 1983. Sucked then, probably worse now. Ya think? I visit Atlanta (family) often. Felt safer and carried less gear in Baghdad. :eek:

Another point is that down here, carrying a handgun in your automobile glovebox is completely lawful. Road rage incidents thus have a high potential to end worse than usual. Just like stopping a suspicious person, I always assume the other person has a gun or two available (mine and theirs).

ToddG

11-19-2011, 10:40 AM

I don't brake check for tailgaters anymore because I've seen too many stories of it going bad for all involved. I simply take my foot off the gas slowly. When you slow down to 30mph in the fast lane, people tend to [i]want[/] to get out from behind you. My speed change is gradual enough that they won't hit me. Admittedly, it sometimes takes them a minute to realize what's happening but I can lose a minute to avoid a dangerous tailgater.

Joe in PNG

11-19-2011, 03:30 PM

(I think we're almost into 'need a seperate thread re: tailgating')
Me, when I got a fella what thinks he's drafting off my bumper ala the Daytona 500, I will signal and then pull into a turn lane, center land... something where I can get off the main way of travel, yet return to that road quickly once the speed freak has passed. If, however, the fella continues our short distance relationship, I will be informing the friendly folks at 911...

wrmettler

11-21-2011, 02:04 PM

The Maricopa County Attorney has dismissed the charges against Appleton without prejudice, and instructed the authorities to pursue further investigation into the situation. So right now, Appleton is a free man without any criminal charges against him. We’ll see what the future holds for him.

Had Appleton not spoken with the police, I bet the County Attorney would not have filed charges against him.

Another interesting issue is the reference in the news reports that Appleton did not retreat when confronted with danger. ARS 13-405(B) states that a person is not obligated to retreat if he is in a place where that person may legally be and is not engaged in an unlawful act. So, I don’t know why the police would make his failure to retreat a basis for any criminal charges.

In another almost identical fact situation (an unarmed assault against an armed man in a parked car resulting in the death of the unarmed assailant), a Maricopa County jury failed to reach a verdict after trial. The County Attorney is deciding whether to retry the case.

JAD

11-21-2011, 03:26 PM

Chuck Anderson

11-21-2011, 06:20 PM

Not sure if it's different for other areas in the country but I've always worked for agencies that don't require an immediate interview following a shooting. Generally we have to do a few things, ID suspect (if he got away), location of possible evidence that may be lost, submit to photos, turn over weapon (given an identical one at time). Then 48-72 hours later have an interview with Detectives. Police have figured out that after a shooting the cocktail of adrenaline floating through your system may not cause the clearest statement. Jeez even dumb cops figured this one out. You'd think attorneys would.

And Mitchell, regarding your statement about Jessie Abbate. It's now Jesse Harrison (and probably soon to be Jesse Duff). She divorced her dipwad husband and changed her name about the same time he was arrested for child sex abuse charges. And yes, she's easy on the eyes.

jslaker

11-21-2011, 06:57 PM

The point isn't that the shooting was bad.

The point is that by talking to the police in this instance, a guy with a lot of professional training and experience still got talked into essentially confessing to a very serious crime. He didn't have a chance at that point. He gave conflicting statements and from that point on he was sunk. If he'd instead followed the "I was in fear for my life, he's the bad guy, I called the police, lawyer please" routine his attorney may have been able to salvage the situation.

Bingo. That's exactly the point I was trying to make with this post (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2228-After-an-incident...STFU!-And-yes-that-goes-for-lawyers-involved-as-well!&p=35838&viewfull=1#post35838).

There is a middle ground between saying absolutely nothing and allowing yourself to be questioned for hours by police without having an attorney present, and I can't imagine a situation where you're doing yourself favors by choosing the latter.

David Armstrong

11-23-2011, 06:10 PM

Wheeler

11-24-2011, 09:25 PM

I'll cheerfully take that advice. :p

Drove through DC in 1983. Sucked then, probably worse now. Ya think? I visit Atlanta (family) often. Felt safer and carried less gear in Baghdad. :eek:

Another point is that down here, carrying a handgun in your automobile glovebox is completely lawful. Road rage incidents thus have a high potential to end worse than usual. Just like stopping a suspicious person, I always assume the other person has a gun or two available (mine and theirs).

I drive in Atlanta traffic every day. I've run the gamut of raging asshole who would chase you to the gates of hell for cutting me off to passive right lane rider. I've finally settled someplace in between. A couple of incidents made my mind up for me. One was a guy that went out of his way to target me, (Yeah, that's an objective assesment, not wounded pride talking). After things went from "That guy's an asshole", to "Die you SOB!", to actually retreiving a pistol from my glove compartment, rolling the window down to deciding where exactly in the hood I was going to place eight round of .45 ACP, to "WTF am I doing?!" I got home and placed my pistol in the house and didn't carry it for over a year. FYI I was in my early 20's then.

The second incident involved two seperate parties doing the same thing as above, without guns. One brake checked the other, who evaded across the median of I-985, striking and killing a driver in the opposite lane and himself. The other vehicle was never found.

I had a guy follow me 30 miles to tell me that because he had his signal on, he had the right-of-way. That was pretty intense as he wouldn't show his hands, and neither did I as they were full of pistol held below his line-of-sight. Seems like pride damn near got the both of us in a shooting incident.

These days I usually drive a work van that grosses at close to 10,000 pounds. If you want to tailgate me, drive on with your bad self. (Pun intended) I'm usually in the right lane unless passing, and the I do the best I can to get myself back in the right lane. I don't tailgate unless traffic slows down rapidly.

Roadrage in Georgia can net you reckless driving and aggresive charges, both of which are misdemeanors with hefty fines and the possibility of jail time. Brake-checking is considered road rage down here.

The best piece of advice I got when I started carrying a gun was "When you start packing heat, you give up your right to defend your honor." I tend to take that seriously.

Mitchell, Esq.

11-24-2011, 10:23 PM

The best piece of advice I got when I started carrying a gun was "When you start packing heat, you give up your right to defend your honor." I tend to take that seriously.

I thought the saying was "If you carry a gun you have given up your right to be an asshole."

Wheeler

11-24-2011, 10:27 PM

I thought the saying was "If you carry a gun you have given up your right to be an asshole."

I won't argue that. Sometimes the two are the same though.

TAZ

05-22-2014, 05:12 PM

The point is braking hard enough to make them realize that they're following to close, but not braking hard enough to actually make them slam into you. It's not that hard to do. I don't usually care if people hurt themselves for being stupid, and I'd much rather them hurt themselves than hurt me (or my family). Frankly, if they're following that close and get to the point that they fly off the road from me tapping my brakes, then NO, I don't really view it as my problem. They probably shouldn't be endangering everyone they follow...most people get that concept and give a little bit of room. It's called paying attention and/or courtesy.

Equate that to this shooting, or all the other miseries in the world if you want to. I'm sure you'll take this and run with it, just like you ran with the whole idea that we think cops are thugs out to make us into criminals. Surprisingly, I'm a pretty good citizen(in my eyes) that has volunteered his time to help the community in a few ways, one of which as an EMT. You'll probably be surprised to hear that I'm a pretty considerate driver overall, usually "that guy" that lets people in front of me during traffic only to piss off those behind me because they'll now be 30 seconds later for their Real Housewives episode.

You might want to check your local laws, but there are a few placed where brake checking is considered illegal. Aside from that it's dangerous. 2 wrongs (tailgating and brake checking) don't make a right. Never have: never will. What happens when you brake check the guy texting and he freaks out, locks up his brakes and side swipes a minivan. I'd feel like crap knowing I caused an avoidable accident.

As for the incident. Interesting that the guy got the charges dropped. Guess his inconsistencies weren't that inconsistent. Lucky for him.

Cops are people with a job to do. Treat the with courtesy and professionalism, but don't give up your constitutional rights to have access to a lawyer during questioning.

JodyH

05-22-2014, 05:34 PM

Wow... 2 1/2 year old zombie thread!

KevinB

05-23-2014, 10:59 AM

Zombies rise on Fridays...

Rosco Benson

05-23-2014, 11:50 AM

Some persons, who may otherwise be reasonable and civil, turn into chip-on-the-shoulder jackasses when driving. The least little thing sets them off. Someone is going too slow, he's an IDIOT. Too fast, he's a MANIAC. Their own pace is, of course, perfect. Being enclosed in their mobile metal and glass cocoons causes them to feel free to shout insults, make rude gestures, or worse.

Both in and out of cars, I try to attribute others mis-steps to ignorance and/or inattention rather than malice.

Rosco

LittleLebowski

05-23-2014, 11:54 AM

No charges.

http://www.kpho.com/story/20663815/no-murder-charges-for-scottsdale-road-rage-shooter

Unobtanium

06-08-2014, 09:50 PM

I'm inclined to think that a great deal of information was left out of his statement, being a fancy lawyer and all I'm sure he knew what to leave out. When being tailgated, why would you think the other driver wanted something other that for you to drive faster or get out of his way?

Maybe the victim was a family member of a victim in a case where the suspect got the victim's family member victim's suspect off... :p say that 10 times fast.
A bucket flew out of a truck and caused $1400 damage to my car one night. The other driver was unaware. Flashing my lights and getting a bit close were about all I could do. Police response time was almost an hour to the scene, so "call in his plate" would have been a horrible idea as th3 scene and evidence would be long gone and I'd be stuck with th3 repair bill. There are legit reasons to get on a bumper imo. Yes the driver thought I was being an ass...until he saw the damage and the rope from his wire pulling string bucket wrapped around my mirror. Then it was all apologies. Insurance resolved it without issue because of how I handled it.