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RJ
09-16-2016, 01:27 PM
I'll be restarting my local USPSA/Steel matches here in Florida in a few weeks. I did a whopping 1 of each last year, so I have really zip for experience.

One thing I am starting to do in daily dry practice is to get my draws down smoothly.

An important component of the draw is clearly getting a good sight picture before breaking the shot. My question relates to "when" you get on the front sight, in terms of the draw stroke.

I usually start my draw practices generally in the same way, hands in the surrender position on my head, waiting for the beep, staring at the target.

My process (if I have the draw steps correct) is:

1 - Strong hand gets master grip on pistol. Weak hand moves to "salute" position close to chest.

2 - Strong hand lifts pistol straight up just enough to clear front of holster.

3 - Strong hand rotates forward and up, joining weak hand, at the low ready.

4 - Pistol extends smoothly in a J arc towards the target.

I get that at the end of all that, I am looking, both eyes open, at the crystal clear front sight and a blurry target.

But I start with looking out at the target, hence: When do you pick up the front sight in your vision?

Seems like I could do this anytime, from say "at the beep", look down, pick up the front sight, and "ride" it with my eyes all the way through the draw stroke, from 2 to 3 to 4.

Or, I could continue to stare at the target as I see the sight rise in front of me at 4, and then refocus my eyes from target to front sight at the last minute?

Lastly, if there is no hard and fast rule that ya'll use in USPSA, when do you pick up the front sight in your draw, and why?

Thanks in advance!

Rich

Mr_White
09-16-2016, 01:59 PM
Seems like I could do this anytime, from say "at the beep", look down, pick up the front sight, and "ride" it with my eyes all the way through the draw stroke, from 2 to 3 to 4.

This ^^^ is wrong. Or at least, I've never heard of anyone doing it and I think it's wrong. Gotta keep eyes on the target spot and bring the gun and sights to it.


Or, I could continue to stare at the target as I see the sight rise in front of me at 4

Yes, this ^^^^, this is what you need to do. Bring the gun to the spot you are looking (the target spot.)

Generally speaking, one can pick up the front sight once the front sight is in the true eye-target line, AND the gun is moving at a speed where you can see it.

If I present the gun in the true eye-target line, I have to artificially slow the rate of extension in order to see the front sight. I start seeing the front sight once the gun decelerates at the end of the stroke.

The press-out is based around the idea of presenting the gun in the true eye-target line, aiming the gun using the sights during that extension, and actively working the trigger in accordance with the sights as the gun is extended.

But for me, since I don't see the front sight until I slow the gun down at the end, I dispense with the true eye-target line presentation and extend the gun in the more conventional J-draw manner like you are talking about. A side issue with the true eye-target line presentation is that the gun tilting up due to what are known as wrists, becomes almost unavoidable. Then, in a real irony of epistemology that reminds me of a pop-science treatment of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, if I grasp (mentally) at trying to see the sights as I extend the gun and thus present it in the true eye-target line, it is maybe less likely to actually be on target because of the wrist tilt. If I present the gun a bit lower (not much, I am still talking the good old four-count type of presentation that has been around for a long time and essentially what you and I worked on together), then even though I may not have the visual certainty of seeing the sights, the gun is more likely to be level and on the target, now because the wrists aren't causing the gun to tilt as much.


, and then refocus my eyes from target to front sight at the last minute?

Maybe, if you need the front sight sharp and clear and can't shift accommodation (focal depth) to front sight distance until the front sight is there.

Alternatives to accepting the delay of shifting accommodation (focal depth) to the front sight only after it is in final position:

Learn the at-will focal shift like I describe in my big vision paper. Not gonna work for everyone.

Learn to shoot the first shot or two with a target focus. This can be significantly aided by using some kind of high-visibility front sight.

There are a lot of discussions on PF comparing the merits of the press-out (eye-target line presentation) and other, more conventional draws. To me, they are all good ways to draw, but I have gone back to the conventional presentations because I find them a bit faster. That is somewhat dependent on practice and the resulting decent indexing ability (you bring the gun to the target spot and through a consistent, practiced, grip and presentation, it shows up with the sights already aligned with the target.)

The true key is diligent practice. If you do that, you'll do well with any of the reasonable drawstroke variations.

RJ
09-16-2016, 02:35 PM
^^^ Got it. Thanks Gabe.

At least I have a chance of practicing 'correctly' before my first steel match.

Luke
09-16-2016, 02:51 PM
I only read the title. Very sorry lol on the interstate and a lot of reading makes me head hurt.


I guess I'm not flexible, I pick up the front sight at basically Faulk extension. I also look at where I want to shoot and wait for the front sight to get there.

RJ
09-16-2016, 03:35 PM
I only read the title. Very sorry lol on the interstate and a lot of reading makes me head hurt.


I guess I'm not flexible, I pick up the front sight at basically Faulk extension. I also look at where I want to shoot and wait for the front sight to get there.

Thanks Luke, hope you are not driving. Full extension, got it.

Mr_White
09-16-2016, 03:48 PM
^^^ Got it. Thanks Gabe.

At least I have a chance of practicing 'correctly' before my first steel match.

I tried to summarize probably hundreds of pages of discussion spread across PF that are related to this, plus emphasized a lot of my own opinion. I don't have a link handy at the moment but those discussions are worth looking at.

RJ
09-16-2016, 04:08 PM
I tried to summarize probably hundreds of pages of discussion spread across PF that are related to this, plus emphasized a lot of my own opinion. I don't have a link handy at the moment but those discussions are worth looking at.

Got it.

I still have "float the gun out there" in my head. :)

Thanks again. I will research more but I was looking for a quick correction before I spend four weeks on draws to show up at a match in Oct doing it wrong.

Mr_White
09-16-2016, 04:37 PM
Really, the right ways to draw have a few things in common, they just organize how to get there differently.

Look at the spot you want to hit.

Drive the front sight to the spot you're looking.

Make the gun fire as close as possible to when you know you're gonna hit.

Glenn E. Meyer
09-16-2016, 05:46 PM
Sorry to inject this but you pick up the front sight when it falls off the gun. I've seen that happen a bit. One of my fiber optics disappeared on the draw. I've seen standard looking sights just drop into the Texas dust.

Best was a guy who had laser combo, strobe light on the gun. Totally newbie. Gets up there and the combo falls off on the ground. The laser and strobe go off like a disco. Hilarity was rampant among the observers.

Just had to say that with the title.

RJ
09-16-2016, 07:27 PM
Really, the right ways to draw have a few things in common, they just organize how to get there differently.

Look at the spot you want to hit.

Drive the front sight to the spot you're looking.

Make the gun fire as close as possible to when you know you're gonna hit.

So, conceptually, you might not even swap focus to the front sight? Say, on a couple targets at your feet if they were at the start of a stage.

Thinking that my target should dictate the sight picture I need to press the trigger?

voodoo_man
09-16-2016, 07:48 PM
Really, the right ways to draw have a few things in common, they just organize how to get there differently.

Look at the spot you want to hit.

Drive the front sight to the spot you're looking.

Make the gun fire as close as possible to when you know you're gonna hit.

I know this is about gaming, but just humor my contribution.

Just to expand on this...

In a deadly force encounter where you do not have time to consider anything other your target, you stair at the spot you want to shoot.

Often times you hear about people shooting the gun or the hands of the bad guy, this is because people focus, and I mean pinpoint focus, on the hands of the bad guy. They sometimes don't even get the chance to see their sights but they do present the firearm and discharge it at the target of their focus.

When you present your firearm and try to pick up your front sight when doing so against a person you may not be able to do so on the first or second shot, especially if you are moving.

The only time you want to focus on your front sight is when you have time and opportunity to do so, sometimes that becomes necessary (precision headshots at close distance - 7 yards and in) - like Bill Rapier says during his pistol classes "focus on your front sight, squeeze squeeze squeeze..."

Luke
09-16-2016, 08:03 PM
I've always thought you would like my target focused shooting VDM. I can see the threat while I shoot him.

RJ
09-16-2016, 08:04 PM
I know this is about gaming, but just humor my contribution.

...



Thanks vdm.

Yes, this is in a USPSA context, but (and this next comment is as serious as a heart attack) at the end of the day, I want to be able to hit what I am aiming at. This may be in a self-defense situation; so I appreciate your sharing your perspective.

Rich

Lomshek
09-16-2016, 10:24 PM
So, conceptually, you might not even swap focus to the front sight? Say, on a couple targets at your feet if they were at the start of a stage.
That's how I do it and there have been quite a few discussions to that effect.

If a target is at handshake distance away I can afford to just sort of have the gun pointed at the target with a crude silhouette of the gun rear as my "sight picture".




Thinking that my target should dictate the sight picture I need to press the trigger? That's always the case. The more difficult the target either because of distance or size or importance of a perfect hit the more refined of a sight picture you need before firing.

45dotACP
09-17-2016, 12:15 AM
Really, the right ways to draw have a few things in common, they just organize how to get there differently.

Look at the spot you want to hit.

Drive the front sight to the spot you're looking.

Make the gun fire as close as possible to when you know you're gonna hit.

This is not only excellent Gabe advice, it's also not a paragraph.

High Five!

I personally start looking at the middle of target and shoot off of an index of sorts...once my draw is complete, I'll see that my sights are more or less where I'm looking so long as the target isn't a longer distance or a tighter shot. I like P.E. Kelley's "shoot the notch" video as a good way of explaining how much you can get away with, even with a bad sight picture. If I'm like 7-10 yards from a wide open metric, I'll just kinda look at the middle of the target, plop the front sight on the brown in some degree of alignment with the rear...I never really remember how aligned they are, but I try and focus more on the trigger press being smooth and uninterrupted.

Steel challenge can have some tighter shots depending on the stage, so I tend to work on staring at where I want the front dot to go and clean up the alignment from there. I shoot a fiber optic sight with a 6'oclock hold and my eye is drawn to the dot, so I focus below the plate, the dot shows up around there and I clean up alignment a little so the top of the blade is about level with the bottom or bottom half of the plate, increasing my odds of a hit...if I focused on the center of the plate, my dot would be around there, I'd fire a shot with the top blade of my sight in the top half or top of the plate...not so much a problem at 20 feet, but at 25 yards, a probable miss and I'd have to do a makeup shot...or at the very least I'd have to bring the front sight down to the bottom of the plate before firing the shot anyways.

JustOneGun
09-17-2016, 10:23 AM
So, conceptually, you might not even swap focus to the front sight? Say, on a couple targets at your feet if they were at the start of a stage.

Thinking that my target should dictate the sight picture I need to press the trigger?


I think you can do this. The question is if you want to do it. For me I was able to do this fairly well as I became a better shooter. I saw it as an advanced form of, "seeing what you need to see." What I was really doing is overdriving the process I had learned or to put it another way I became ultra efficient. I also found that my accuracy suffered because of it.

I found that I couldn't target focus much past 7 yards and still hit the center of the target. I was more focused on self-defense so I stopped doing it. The clincher for me was during FoF I started seeing wing shots when the good guy was moving and I target focused. When I took the time shift the focus I was right back in the center where I wanted to be.

For pure competition I would give it a try and see how it works for you. If you carry a gun for self-defense I'm not sure if you could switch back and forth. I know I couldn't.

chances R
09-17-2016, 08:13 PM
You may take this for what it is worth. I will tell you that on standard stages where first shot speed is at a premium I do fairly well for an old man. I have had multiple classes from competitive shooters to tactical 'agency' trainers. Also if you read a little from Rob Latham he always focuses on the front sight except at contact range......he says he does it faster than most. I would like to start at position/step 1.
1. My focus is on where I want my first shot.....basically mid horizontal nipple line and at the beep strong hand firmly establishes grip and support hand goes to diaphram level. Note that the support hand is your speed hand.......the faster it goes the faster your presentation.
2. Strong hand comes straight up to clear holster
3. Rotate shoulder dropping elbow to bring muzzle down range.......This is your first firing position if needed
4. Bring gun forward towards target getting support hand involved with grip.....as the gun goes forward this is where you may again fire with a two handed grip and it is also where I start to pick up the sight in my peripheral vision as it approaches my line of sight to the target
5. Full extension of both arms with intense focus on the front sight as it is now fully in my line of sight to my initial point of focus on target/impact point. Firing with follow through as needed.

RJ
09-19-2016, 09:39 AM
Thanks all.

I wasn't getting into a back and forth, because frankly I'm not really qualified to debate this.

I did want to express my thanks to everyone who answered my question.

I'm good, for now. There is a local Steel Challenge match here in Clearwater on Saturday 15 October, I'm aiming to register for that (that would make two Steel matches, evar :cool:).

Appreciate the inputs.

Mr_White
09-19-2016, 11:59 AM
I know this is about gaming, but just humor my contribution.

Just to expand on this...

In a deadly force encounter where you do not have time to consider anything other your target, you stair at the spot you want to shoot.

Often times you hear about people shooting the gun or the hands of the bad guy, this is because people focus, and I mean pinpoint focus, on the hands of the bad guy. They sometimes don't even get the chance to see their sights but they do present the firearm and discharge it at the target of their focus.

When you present your firearm and try to pick up your front sight when doing so against a person you may not be able to do so on the first or second shot, especially if you are moving.

The only time you want to focus on your front sight is when you have time and opportunity to do so, sometimes that becomes necessary (precision headshots at close distance - 7 yards and in) - like Bill Rapier says during his pistol classes "focus on your front sight, squeeze squeeze squeeze..."

Actually, no humoring needed. I know Rich_Jenkins posted in the context of USPSA/pure technical skills, but what I really enjoy is finding whatever convergence there is between the tactical and the technical - usually there is a lot. I'm always happy to talk defensive stuff, and quite honestly a lot of times I feel like something is missing if I just talk technical skills in total isolation.

So I think we really have to start with threat ID and assessment, which is going to include a wider view of the person and their behavior, and also a specific focus on the hands (I personally think Paul Howe's basic process has a lot of merit.)

There is a task in and of itself, once the decision to fire has been made, to move the eyes off the hands (assuming that's where they were when the decision was made) and onto the target spot. That part being missing can easily lead to shooting the hands and gun. I would readily acknowledge that plenty of things like this can be easier said than done, but we're enthusiasts at these skills and tactics, so I think we are all trying to practice to do the best we can.

I would readily acknowledge that it might happen that we don't get on the sights. Index is very powerful, and index and coarse visual alignment can do a lot in terms of aim. But, I think self-fulfilling prophecies are a danger here too - training with an expectation that the sights can't be used, might lead to exactly that happening, largely due to lack of practice and physical rehearsal. There are SO many people who have been able to use their sights as they trained to, that I think it's very doable to employ sights for real. And it is also good to hedge that bet with things like practice using coarse visual alignment and target focused shooting, maybe with some high visibility sights in there too.

In range practice (just to give the context of my observation here), I've found one of the key points in aiming using the sights when the shooter and/or target are moving, is highly dependent on the shooter refusing to accept a coarser visual reference and making a specific mental effort to find the front sight and glue it to the target spot. I've found that mental effort to make all the difference.

Mr_White
09-19-2016, 12:00 PM
Thanks all.

I wasn't getting into a back and forth, because frankly I'm not really qualified to debate this.

I did want to express my thanks to everyone who answered my question.

I'm good, for now. There is a local Steel Challenge match here in Clearwater on Saturday 15 October, I'm aiming to register for that (that would make two Steel matches, evar :cool:).

Appreciate the inputs.

Good luck and have fun Rich!

Duces Tecum
09-19-2016, 12:55 PM
"When do you pick up the Front Sight?"

The first part of my daily dry-fire practice is for close threats. I stand five feet from a large mirror and "shoot my face" as quickly as possible. In the beginning this was done by looking over the top of the slide. Eventually it segued into looking through the notch in the rear sight. The front sight was nearly always there in the the notch somewhere, and my (perceived) accuracy improved. Or at least I thought so.

The second dry-fire stage is at an effective 33 yards (1/3rd scale target at 11 yards). I stare at where I hope the round will land and begin my presentation. As the pistol approaches full extension and I can start to see the front sight come into focus, I drop my trigger finger from the side of the frame to the trigger and do a quick controlled press. The intent is for my finger to begin trigger-press just as the focused front sight aligns on the target. Rule 3, and all.

All that said, and with no disrespect to the other participants in this thread, I've read Mr_White's contributions (above) and will adjust my practice to accommodate his teachings. Can't do otherwise. I've seen his videos.

Mr_White
09-19-2016, 01:02 PM
"When do you pick up the Front Sight?"

The first part of my daily dry-fire practice is for close threats. I stand five feet from a large mirror and "shoot my face" as quickly as possible. In the beginning this was done by looking over the top of the slide. Eventually it segued into looking through the notch in the rear sight. The front sight was nearly always there in the the notch somewhere, and my (perceived) accuracy improved. Or at least I thought so.

The second dry-fire stage is at an effective 33 yards (1/3rd scale target at 11 yards). I stare at where I hope the round will land and begin my presentation. As the pistol approaches full extension and I can start to see the front sight come into focus, I drop my trigger finger from the side of the frame to the trigger and do a quick controlled press. The intent is for my finger to begin trigger-press just as the focused front sight aligns on the target. Rule 3, and all.

All that said, and with no disrespect to the other participants in this thread, I've read Mr_White's contributions (above) and will adjust my practice to accommodate his teachings. Can't do otherwise. I've seen his videos.

I appreciate the kind words, I really do, but don't feel like you have to do what I do. Of course I think my ways have value, but there are lots of better shooters than I around, and a lot of good ways to do the right thing. And lots and lots of bad ways to do things too, so stay away from those. But my way is not the only good way. ;)