Want my first non-striker: P30 LEM or CZ P-07?

[evi1joe]

I want a new 9mm, and I want to get something more comfortable for my odd hands than Glock (I have normal/large palms with short, stubby fingers, and a toe-thumb). I have (and have had) tons of Glocks, but really hate the feel of the grip. It's become way more noticeable now that I've spent a few months away from the 19 (with a P320 and 43/42s).

The P320 "small" size grip modules feel wonderful, but that's another striker. I owned one and I loved it, but wanted to try out a SA/DA (or LEM) because (a) it's different, (b) it will allow me to dry-fire without the hassle of re-cocking the striker, and (c) I have a perhaps incorrect intuition that getting "good" on a longer (LEM) or DA/SA trigger will also only improve my striker trigger-pull (for all I really know it could make me worse).

Which should I get?

My rationale:

P30 LEM (maybe L) --
FO:
the LEM trigger pull has many fans. ToddG seemed to really like this platform, and his opinion means a lot to me. The L looks more proportional and would be the longest sight radius in my stable (3xG19s, G43, G42, MP22C); however, I do read that many (like ToddG) believe the extra length just slows down transitions and the recoil arc is longer, etc. Grip with medium feels okay, so with small panels should feel much, much better than Glock (maybe as good as the P320 with "small" module).
NO FO:
HK P30 seem very rare....none of the trainers and go-fast guys I've shot with--or even know--carry one. They all carry G19s, with a few CZs (Pannone), and one P320 or M&P (Lamb). It could be a combination of the longer trigger, thicker slide, and price--or maybe trainers just use what they know 90% of their clients carry. Expensive. Long grip may be harder to conceal (wont carry that often unless I fall in love with it).

CZ P-07 --
FO:
Gets mostly great reviews. Grip is fairly comfortable, so small backstrap should make it feel a little better than Glock. Pannone loves his a lot. Has a ton of Cajun and Custom parts for me to buy and install and fiddle with which is always fun (though the Glocks also have that and I have tons of Glocks). Very affordable, though may cost as much as a P30 if I Cajunize it.
NO FO:
Heard and read a few horror stories of issues. Seems like it has a really thick slide (harder to carry if I love it). Grip isn't much different from Glock so I don't know how much better it will feel with small backstrap.

[Kyle Reese]

Both are very solid choices, and would serve your needs well. If you're looking to transition to just one or the other exclusively for training and carry, I've always advocated that having a spare handgun is a must. In this vein, the P07 wins out due to simple economics. I have a P09, and feel that David Milam's mods (of CGW) are worth their weight in gold. However, the P30 is certainly worth examining, and if you can save up to buy two, I'd suggest doing that.

Holsters and ancillary support gear for both are readily available from several manufacturers here on this forum.

[GJM]

With a LEM, you still need to work the slide between presses, to get a LEM pull trigger.

This is pretty easy. If your focus is face shooting, and you are not timer centric, get an HK. If you are impressed by fast times, get the P07. An HK trigger will never be as good as a tuned P07. A CZ will never be as vetted an an HK.

If HK, a P2000 is an easier carry size, and a USP/USP Compact will have a better trigger than a P series.

[Kyle Reese]

With a LEM, you still need to work the slide between presses, to get a LEM pull trigger.

This is pretty easy. If your focus is face shooting, and you are not timer centric, get an HK. If you are impressed by fast times, get the P07. An HK trigger will never be as good as a tuned P07. A CZ will never be as vetted an an HK.

If HK, a P2000 is an easier carry size, and a USP/USP Compact will have a better trigger than a P series.

Lots of wisdom in this post.

[LockedBreech]

An HK trigger will never be as good as a tuned P07. A CZ will never be as vetted an an HK.



Nice and succinct!

[psalms144.1]

With a LEM, you still need to work the slide between presses, to get a LEM pull trigger.

This is pretty easy. If your focus is face shooting, and you are not timer centric, get an HK. If you are impressed by fast times, get the P07. An HK trigger will never be as good as a tuned P07. A CZ will never be as vetted an an HK.

If HK, a P2000 is an easier carry size, and a USP/USP Compact will have a better trigger than a P series.Couldn't agree more with any of this. I'll only add that when I tried to make the break from a LONG TIME with the GLOCK, I could never get over the fact that I couldn't shoot as fast with my P30/P2000 (both 9mm LEMs). Striker triggers are just SO much easier to run at speed. If you're a timer freak like me, you need to put that thing away and just get to love the accuracy, reliability and smooth operation of the HKs.

If you want something different, and you still want to run fast go with the CZ, but be prepared to have a special snowflake pistol with very little options WRT sights, etc, and a pistol that may or may not be as reliable as your GLOCKs.

[RevolverRob]

Tough call.

If you want to break from striker guns, besides shooting reasons - for carry reasons (read you are thinking of, or already are going AIWB), I lean towards the TDA gun (so CZ07 or a V1 P30).

If you're wanting the challenge of a different trigger and getting good with it. LEM V2 (not the most popular, that's V4 or 4.1), which has a heavier pull, would be a challenge to shoot well. LEM V2 is closer to a DA-revolver. At least in terms of stroke length and reset length. I think mastering a DAO-type trigger (be it DAO in a revolver or LEM), is a tough challenge for many shooters, particularly those who have done a lot or exclusively striker-fired gun work. I've had good gains working exclusively DA guns and transitioning back to lighter Striker or SA guns. Others who have done the same seem to support that with their results.

[evi1joe]

Well, thanks all. I guess it just shows I'll probably be okay getting either.

I do wonder what is meant by "If your focus is face shooting, and you are not timer centric, get an HK."

I mean, I AM a person who tries to shoot fast on a timer, BUT I always try to make sure I make the shot--accuracy is more important to me than speed. My hope is that the speed will come by trying to slowly push my limits. Right now, I do a lot at 5-7Y....at the beep, I draw and put 2 in the index card in the head, then 4 in the chest. It's like a FAST drill without the reload, because I don't plan on reloading during a shooting (though I do practice them too sometimes).
I start off slow, but make sure that I do my best not to miss even if I have to slow down.

I think I've gotten too picky about triggers. At first, I just was happy to eliminate overtravel--it seemed to help my accuracy for follow-up shots. Then I discovered a 3.75# trigger ALSO seemed to help me shoot better.

[Mitch]

I think both are a good exercise in becoming an overall better shooter.

I actually have a CZ P 07 on the way. Some of the comments in this thread have me a little concerned now, are they less than reliable? After reading about Pannone's experience I figured the P 09/P 07 were good to go.

[busdriver]

I have a P09 and a P07. If you dry fire a lot, you will break trigger return springs. Sample size of two, but zero malfunctions other than said springs over 4.5ish thousands rounds. Mags are not cheap, but they seem to be high quality.

[Mitch]

I have a P09 and a P07. If you dry fire a lot, you will break trigger return springs. Sample size of two, but zero malfunctions other than said springs over 4.5ish thousands rounds. Mags are not cheap, but they seem to be high quality.

How often? I don't necessarily find that very offensive. It's a wear part, they break in other guns, too.

[evi1joe]

I've read that a lot of people replace the trigger return springs with the reduced power Cajun or CZ Customs ones (which are higher quality evidently and cheap insurance for $7). According to the CZ shooters I know, it's a known weak point.

[Cecil Burch]

Either is a good choice. I have spent the past two years running a P2000 V2 LEM and it's been excellent. I've run it through s number of tough classes like Givens Combative Pistol and Paul Sharp's REV Pistol. Once you understand the trick to the LEM (see tons of tips from nyeti on different posts dealing with this) I have not found it to be a liability at all for speed.

I just transitioned to a P07 mostly because it "felt better" than the HK and I am actually shooting it better (quantified at a Pannone class). I did replace the TRS mostly because it's one of the might wear items and the relacement one from Cajun Gunworks is ridiculously cheap and so much stronger. After talking to Pannone a lot about it and hearing about his massive amount of use on his pistols (none of the P07s were handpicked by CZ) and their ruggedness, I feel confident it's as solid as can be.

Both are excellent guns, and either will be a good choice.

[Mitch]

Either is a good choice. I have spent the past two years running a P2000 V2 LEM and it's been excellent. I've run it through s number of tough classes like Givens Combative Pistol and Paul Sharp's REV Pistol. Once you understand the trick to the LEM (see tons of tips from nyeti on different posts dealing with this) I have not found it to be a liability at all for speed.

I just transitioned to a P07 mostly because it "felt better" than the HK and I am actually shooting it better (quantified at a Pannone class). I did replace the TRS mostly because it's one of the might wear items and the relacement one from Cajun Gunworks is ridiculously cheap and so much stronger. After talking to Pannone a lot about it and hearing about his massive amount of use on his pistols (none of the P07s were handpicked by CZ) and their ruggedness, I feel confident it's as solid as can be.

Both are excellent guns, and either will be a good choice.

So here's my question. I've seen videos of Mike talking about really high (like 50,000) round counts on guns with no spring changes. No recoil spring, no trigger spring, nothing. Are those all stock guns? Either way, that's impressive.


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[busdriver]

I screwed around bending the stock trigger spring (weakening it in the process I assume) and broke it, along with a Cajun version. The P09 is now on a second Cajun spring. Most of that shooting was over a 3 month period, dry firing around 45 minutes a night on average.

[GJM]

So here's my question. I've seen videos of Mike talking about really high (like 50,000) round counts on guns with no spring changes. No recoil spring, no trigger spring, nothing. Are those all stock guns? Either way, that's impressive.


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As to whether that is anecdote or data, I think is still unknown. When a major LE organization adopts the P07, and puts it through the same level of stress as the P2000 receives in its Federal contract with Border Patrol, we will get an idea. If there is a CZ that will hold up, it is likely a stock P07/09.

[Pennzoil]

I'm a sample size of one but my P-07 has been less then stellar.

It frustrating as I know a number of people that have had good luck with them and if my sample was reliable it would be my preferred gun. With a JM AIWB holster I think it's as easy to carry as a 19.
10590
10589
10591

[YVK]

Well, thanks all. I guess it just shows I'll probably be okay getting either.

I do wonder what is meant by "If your focus is face shooting, and you are not timer centric, get an HK.".

It meant that LEM, especially stock on P30, is harder to shoot on standard timed drills than a tuned CZ, and I am not hearing too much about people leaving those 07s untuned.

[evi1joe]

Pennzoil: I assume that would be an RSA or extractor issue, and not too hard to fix. Not that you should have to fix a new gun.
--
Cajun's website has a blurb about how Pannone has shot 50K without replacing a spring thanks to their pro-kit upgrade.
I think Pannone got Shrek to start shooting the CZs too.
--
But I don't even like the idea of "breaking guns in." Last night I was set on saving $250 and getting the P07 with Cajun kit.
Waking up to pics like that make me think I should just FO on the HK for $850.

[psalms144.1]

I'm a sample size of one but my P-07 has been less then stellar.

It frustrating as I know a number of people that have had good luck with them and if my sample was reliable it would be my preferred gun. With a JM AIWB holster I think it's as easy to carry as a 19.
10590
10589
10591You need to stop limp wristing and use stouter ammo. Just kidding, can you tell I've been a GLOCK armorer for a while? Bummer that your P07 isn't running well, it's a pistol I'd REALLY like to try (and their LE prices are insane), but I keep getting to the point of ordering, then backing off...

[busdriver]

The stock recoil springs are probably over sprung for light 115g ball stuff. They are quite stout.

[Greg]

I have 2 of the P-07s that are still on their factory TRS. 7000 rounds (and a buttload of dry fires with a snap cap) between them. Zero issues so far.

Since I bought some spare TRS springs I figure mine may never break. That's how spare parts hoarding goes for me:p

[EVP]

Out of the guns you listed I would go with a p30 LEM hands down. I think for a defensive gun you can't go wrong with it. It's is rock solid in reliability and accuracy. Put some good sights on it and don't worry about being held back by the platform.


This underlying discussion or thought about the shootability(speed)of the LEM has dated back to the early times of PF and even before. In a nut shell some people shoot it well, some people it takes some time to shoot well, some can never shoot it well.

Nyeti make a excellent point about the LEM. The very name of the LEM "Law enforcement modification" tells you the purpose of the system. It's a great trigger for carry. I think some of the most important characteristics of a specific gun for carry/duty is not the trigger.

[Exurbankevin]

P-07, of course, but then again, I just don't drink the CZ Koolaid, I snort the raw powder.

It's faster that way.

[Default.mp3]

FYI, if you qualify, CZ offers a nice discount to military and first responders, both active and retired. Talk to Andrew Eager at aeager@cz-usa.com for details.

[Kyle Reese]

FYI, if you qualify, CZ offers a nice discount to military and first responders. Talk to Andrew Eager at aeager@cz-usa.com for details.
I did not know that. Thanks for the heads up.

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[Cecil Burch]

So here's my question. I've seen videos of Mike talking about really high (like 50,000) round counts on guns with no spring changes. No recoil spring, no trigger spring, nothing. Are those all stock guns? Either way, that's impressive.


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If I recall the rambling conversations I tend to have with Mike, he currently has three 07s. The first one has about 50K rounds through it, the second (a gen2) has 25k. and the most recent one he bought has upwards of 10k. The older two have had various things done to them by either CZ Custom or CGW, including spring changes (one set on each I believe). The 10k pistol is completely stock with no spring changes at all. That is the one he is currently usng the most and the one he ran in the Covert Carry class I took a couple of weeks ago.

Having talked to him about this issue a lot, and knowing how serious he takes these issues, if he is GTG with them, I feel pretty comfortable with them too. Another buddy is a LEO with a large number of firearm use incidents (he is in a particularly bad area with high narco gang activity - some of the highest in the US) and is one of the best shooters and instructors I know. His life literally depends on a regular basis on his firearms, and he is looking hard at going to a P09 for his duty gun. That is how much he rates the guns.

[Cecil Burch]

I'm a sample size of one but my P-07 has been less then stellar.

It frustrating as I know a number of people that have had good luck with them and if my sample was reliable it would be my preferred gun. With a JM AIWB holster I think it's as easy to carry as a 19.


Chris was telling me about your gun dude. That really sucks.

BTW, your AFAK kit is the freaking BOMB!

[cheby]

Regarding the TRS on CZ's. The price for that thing is $2. It takes no time to replace it. I replace it every time I fully disassemble my CZ's for cleaning (Around 1.5-2K rds - about two times a month). Never broke one after I started doing that. You can buy a spring made by CZ custom or CGW ($7). Those are supposedly more durable. I personally don't see a reason for that. Just replace a $2 part every 2K rds and don't worry about it. TRS is not an issue.

[LangdonTactical]

Or you just pick up a PX4 and give that a try. :)

[Pennzoil]

Chris was telling me about your gun dude. That really sucks.

BTW, your AFAK kit is the freaking BOMB!

Yeah I think my sample of one is just an anomily to be honest. I know to many people that have had good luck with the CZ's to believe it's the norm.

Glad you like the AFAK!


Or you just pick up a PX4 and give that a try. :)

I'm probably going to try this route once the Langdon version is available.

[Mitch]

Thank you Cecil - that put my mind more at ease.


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[Lon]

I've got about 1500 rds thru my P07/RMR gun. Mines a gen 2. No issues. I upgraded with a lot of CGW parts. I've got 4-5K dry fire reps through it as well. I'm using it off duty and as the gun I use when I teach. Gonna start shooting it in CO division once I put the factory hammer back in it. Forgot it wouldn't be production legal when I put the CGW hammer in.

[MSparks909]

I completely understand getting a gun "just because" it's different. Especially when compared to something as bland as a Glock. However in the sake of fairness I think you should compare similar trigger systems across different platforms. LEM is its own unique trigger system and should be treated as such. Many on here state it takes thousands of rounds to run at a high level and remain proficient. Taking time off or switching to different guns then going back to LEM can be a hassle. Having shot my friend's LEM P30 numerous times in comparison to my safe full of striker and DA/SA pistols, I agree.

I would consider sticking with a DA/SA gun (P-07, P30, P2000, etc). Common manual of arms across multiple platforms...classic Sig P series, Beretta 92/M9/PX4, HK USP/P/45, etc.

I will say that P2000s can be had very cheap now. Online prices seem to be hovering around $599 or slightly less. Same for .40S&W P30s.

With all that said I'd personally wait for the Langdon PX4 Compact to come out. Having shot one this past weekend, and comparing it to all the DA/SA guns in my safe, I think the PX4 will quickly become my favorite.

[OnionsAndDragons]

If you can lay hands on a LEM gun to try, do that. I understand where people are coming from with the "difficulties" of the LEM system, but I do not believe this to be a universal issue. Some people take to it really quickly.

I don't know how to explain it beyond: it just feels right and makes sense to my brain. I cannot run it quite as fast as a Glock trigger, but over the last 2 years of shooting only LEM and Glock for diagnostic comparison, my consistency is higher on the LEM. My shot accountability is better. This could be from a bunch of factors; inherent accuracy of the HK, being unable to outrun my eyes/sights, a trigger pull that just feels more to my natural speed, etc.

I really like the LEM. I've never been a huge striker guy. The LEM may not be for you. If it isn't, I agree with the suggestion on the PX4 project. Those are good guns and easy to shoot.

[GJM]

Thank you Cecil - that put my mind more at ease.


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This is not meant at all as a slight towards Cecil, as he is just reporting good info, but one guy having three that run and knowing another serious dude that is thinking of getting one, hardly constitutes what most people would consider a serious vetting process comparable to the use of the P2000 by Customs and Border Protection. Is there any military or LE organization that has adopted the P07/09 on some department wide basis? I have five P07/09 pistols, and they are great hobbyist guns, but it is way to early to know about them with the same confidence we have with the P2000.

[Mitch]

George, no arguments whatsoever. You won't find me saying the P 07 is as proven as a P2000.

But is that a fair bar for picking a carry gun let's say? If that's the case then nobody should carry anything but P2000s and maybe Glocks.


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[GJM]

George, no arguments whatsoever. You won't find me saying the P 07 is as proven as a P2000.

But is that a fair bar for picking a carry gun let's say? If that's the case then nobody should carry anything but P2000s and maybe Glocks.


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Fortunately, each person has the ability to establish their own criteria. Personally, I would carry a P07, but I would first need to put a lot more rounds through it verifying function, than I would with an HK. I would also be very judicious about what after market parts, if any, I put into a P07 that I carried, and my carry P07 has just some mild polishing by CZ Custom. I was amazed following a P07 thread on another forum, where there seemed to be a daily competition changing springs to see who get get the lightest possible trigger in a P07.

[Cecil Burch]

This is not meant at all as a slight towards Cecil, as he is just reporting good info, but one guy having three that run and knowing another serious dude that is thinking of getting one, hardly constitutes what most people would consider a serious vetting process comparable to the use of the P2000 by Customs and Border Protection. Is there any military or LE organization that has adopted the P07/09 on some department wide basis? I have five P07/09 pistols, and they are great hobbyist guns, but it is way to early to know about them with the same confidence we have with the P2000.


I never said or implied otherwise. I was stating what I KNEW, and what was good enough for me. Not what should be universally followed by everyone. I was answering a specific question from 125mph. My answers are as good as the the other anecdotes and conjecture thrown around by others on this thread. Not better, but solid enough for ME, and based on first hand real world experience. If you think that is not good enough, you can certainly choose to weigh my input as you feel best.

[Leroy]

I found the P30 difficult to shoot to my normal level. The curvy grip I find very un-ergonomic. The large backstrap is an abomination. What I do like about the P30 is the slide shape and general ergos of the slide. The trigger guard is retarded. The full size USP was frankly pretty good. Concealed the same as the P30, and has a monstrous trigger guard. Better grip ergos and trigger. The P30 flipped less but the USP put more points up at the same speed.
The P07 is deffinitely more shootable then the HKs I mentioned but they can have issues. If I wanted a reliable CZ without to much fuckery I would buy a CGW P07 and put a CZ Custom TRS in it. If this gun needs to be 100% reliable, HK USP or USPc.

[GJM]

I never said or implied otherwise. I was stating what I KNEW, and what was good enough for me. Not what should be universally followed by everyone. I was answering a specific question from 125mph. My answers are as good as the the other anecdotes and conjecture thrown around by others on this thread. Not better, but solid enough for ME, and based on first hand real world experience. If you think that is not good enough, you can certainly choose to weigh my input as you feel best.

Precisely, which is why I started my comment by stating it was not at all meant as I slight toward you, as you were just reporting good info. My comment was for 125, who was possibly confusing the vetting of individual pistols like you reported with yourself and Mike P, and the kind of institutional vetting that comes with a contract like the P2000 has with CBP.

[evi1joe]

Yeah, I have a great LGS that put the small panels/rear on for me and let me dry-fire it. Having some experience with DA only stuff, it's really weird seeing the hammer come back during "take-up" with such little pressure.
They have a PX4 in 40 and a P-09 for rent, and I will have access to a DA/SA P30 in a month when a friend gets back from the green zone, so I may just go shoot all and see how I do, and if I prefer one over the other.
I kinda like the idea that the P-07 would allow me to fiddle with it (something I like to do).

[Mitch]

Fortunately, each person has the ability to establish their own criteria. Personally, I would carry a P07, but I would first need to put a lot more rounds through it verifying function, than I would with an HK. I would also be very judicious about what after market parts, if any, I put into a P07 that I carried, and my carry P07 has just some mild polishing by CZ Custom. I was amazed following a P07 thread on another forum, where there seemed to be a daily competition changing springs to see who get get the lightest possible trigger in a P07.

I'm at the point where I don't modify anything on carry guns beyond sights. Maybe I'll keep a public log going on how this goes, could be interesting...

[Greg]

I agree that the P-07/09 series has not been vetted as thoroughly as some other pistols in the US. I do beleve the Czech police carry them and maybe the Phillipinos, but maybe all it took to secure those contracts was some cash bribes and hookers (Hey, it works for the Olympics).

My postings about the P-07 are kind of a realtime vetting that I'm doing myself. I intend to run mine in some classes in 2017. If they barf all over themselves I will post about that as well.

I did pick up a Sig P2022 not long ago as an alternative, but I don't really care for the grip. I need to find a large grip as the medium is best described as tiny.

If neither of those are what I'm after Mr Langdon's Version of the PX4 Compact could be the ticket....

I really like polymer framed carry guns and for AIWB I dig the DA/SA system.

[Kyle Reese]

http://www.janes.com/article/56865/slovakia-replaces-semi-automatic-pistol-inventory


Slovakia replaces semi-automatic pistol inventory

Slovakia has purchased the CZ 2075D RAMI P, compact CZ P-07, and standard CZ P-09, in addition to Glock 17 Gen 4's. This acquisition will hopefully provide us with some hard data on the P07 / P09 in actual field use.

[Paltares8]

I have had a Gen 1 P07 Duty for awhile now with a few thousand rounds through it with no problems, yet any ways. I've heard a lot of horror stories about the first gens, that I know are very well documented and well founded, but haven't seen anything like that with mine. I haven't changed a thing on it yet, although I'll probably grab a couple trigger return springs soon just to be careful. For what its worth I bought it used, although after a close inspection it didn't seem to see a lot, if any action. And it didn't come with a decocker, but rather a safety and light and is a pretty late serial number for the 1st gens. I have no experience with the P30, but that and a USP are on the short list for my next pistol. I'd take a good look at all the stuff people have already posted about it and just go with what seems best to you.

[GJM]

I suspect even a stock P07 trigger will seem pretty skookum compared to a regular LEM on a P2000. I am just in from the range, and at the end shot my P2000 SK .40. You really need to be a devotee of the P2000 series, or issued one, to get excited about shooting one for fun.

[MSparks909]

I suspect even a stock P07 trigger will seem pretty skookum compared to a regular LEM on a P2000. I am just in from the range, and at the end shot my P2000 SK .40. You really need to be a devotee of the P2000 series, or issued one, to get excited about shooting one for fun.

Well...I've never enjoyed shooting subcompact .40s. But maybe that's just me. I don't mind the 9mm full size P2000 at all.