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Ga Shooter
11-14-2011, 09:47 PM
264

Above is my target from Saturday when I ran the press six drill. For reference it was an indoor range, very busy, Gen 4 G19 using 115gr UMC green box fmj, Ameriglo Hack sights, GFA, Ghost 3.5 lb connector, latest spring (I lost version count). I am cross eye dominate. As you can see I shoot about 1"-1.5" low at 3 yds. I have dry fired extensively even with a Ruger LCR with laser and have no flinch at all. I think this is a sight problem but I am not sure how to correct it. When I go slow and line everything up it seems to do pretty well. Also had a light bulb moment when putting 3 in 3 sec and actually was able to watch the front sight lift and return. After the light bulb went on I tried with 2 in circles and did a lot better. I think I am not lining the top of the sights just right in order to get the speed. I have gotten into the habit of finding the tritium circle on the front and taking the shot. What are your thoughts? Any way to correct this without going backwards and relearning the sights?

Ga Shooter
11-16-2011, 08:34 AM
I don't think I made my questions very clear. I am not blaming the sights but the way I see the sights. When I get the front sight I am squeezing the shot off while only seeing the top half of the orange and the whole tritium dot but not the lower half of the orange. Is that enough to cause the shots to be that low at that distance? If so do you think I would be better served to change my rear sights to Pro Operators so I can line up the dots for better elevation control? With my eyesight it takes to long to line up the top edge of the front and rear. Thanks for the help.

Al T.
11-16-2011, 09:08 AM
That is (IMHO) tough to diagnose via pics and the internet. I don't have the Hack sights, so no help there. :(

My biggest concern would be the lack of accuracy. For a press six drill, I would expect that the 3 shot group noted in the number five circle to be the norm. :confused:

Ga Shooter
11-16-2011, 09:53 AM
That is (IMHO) tough to diagnose via pics and the internet. I don't have the Hack sights, so no help there. :(

My biggest concern would be the lack of accuracy. For a press six drill, I would expect that the 3 shot group noted in the number five circle to be the norm. :confused:

The accuracy is my biggest concern I am just not sure where to go from here.

ToddG
11-16-2011, 12:04 PM
I had the opposite issue with the Hack/idot combo. When trying to get precision at speed, I would put the orange ball inside the u-notch. The front sight would be too high and my shots would go north an inch or two at 7yd.

Without actually seeing you shoot, it's very hard to diagnose. Is the Hack front causing you to anticipate? Are you lining things up wrong? Lots of possibilities. My advice is to go back to basics. Bench the gun and shoot some deliberate 25yd groups.

Ga Shooter
11-16-2011, 12:26 PM
I had the opposite issue with the Hack/idot combo. When trying to get precision at speed, I would put the orange ball inside the u-notch. The front sight would be too high and my shots would go north an inch or two at 7yd.

Without actually seeing you shoot, it's very hard to diagnose. Is the Hack front causing you to anticipate? Are you lining things up wrong? Lots of possibilities. My advice is to go back to basics. Bench the gun and shoot some deliberate 25yd groups.

That is a great idea. Just for clarification I am using the square notch rear not the u notch. Also this is on a Gen4 G19 (my first G19) that I only have about 500rds through. I have much more experience with the G17 with the same sights. I would not think that it would make a big difference but I will try to post a pic in the next couple of days of my final exam target from a class this summer and you will see a huge difference in accuracy.:confused:

Thanks again for the help.

Savage Hands
11-16-2011, 12:35 PM
I may be totally wrong but I thought that for most sights that are designed for 25 yards will shoot low at closer distances. Even older ballistic charts from ammo manufacturers use to show the bullet impact ~1.5" low at 7 yards for handguns FWIR.
Maybe it's exaggerated more with taller sights in regards to the height over bore?

Savage Hands
11-16-2011, 04:41 PM
I finally found a chart that may be helpful. Courtesy of Federal http://le.atk.com/general/federalproducts/pistol/tacticalhst.aspx

1. Click the specific round or rounds and hit compare
2. Click the Average Range chart in the upper right hand corner which shows the 0-100 yard trajectory

For example the 9mm HST average about .9" low at the muzzle with what it says is .9" sight height which I'm assuming means height over bore since nobody uses a front sight that tall.

Al T.
11-16-2011, 06:19 PM
Been thinking about this between naps (sick as a dog). I'm much more concerned about accuracy than the POI/POA issues. That one group looked fine, the rest not so good. :eek:

Ga Shooter
11-18-2011, 09:55 AM
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee394/GAShooter/DSC05018.jpg

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee394/GAShooter/DSC05019.jpg

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee394/GAShooter/DSC05020.jpg

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee394/GAShooter/DSC05021.jpg

http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee394/GAShooter/DSC05022.jpg

Maybe you can llok at theese targets and give me your opinion. The above is from the final exam of a basic class I took in August. Appr 200-225 rounds. Anywhere from 5 to 25 yds. Static, WHO, SHO, Moving off the X, Advancing and Retreating while firing( both hands, SHO, WHO) etc. I used a Gen 4 G17 Hack sights, set up the same way as the G19. Part of my frustration is to me the above is WAY better than the press six drill from Saturday. I have had 2 range seesions like
Saturday with the G19. I carry the 19 for as my primary CCW b/c I do not conceal the 17 very well. I am very confused as both guns are set up identical. I really appreciate all the guidance and help.


The indoor range I found out has video cameras. I will try and see if next time I can get a copy of my self shooting. I know this would help a lot.

Ga Shooter
11-18-2011, 09:55 AM
Been thinking about this between naps (sick as a dog). I'm much more concerned about accuracy than the POI/POA issues. That one group looked fine, the rest not so good. :eek:

Hope you feel better soon. I was down a couple of weeks ago and it sucks.

Al T.
11-18-2011, 12:24 PM
Thank you. :) I'm human again, though not 100%.

If you get up this way, let me host you at our range. Zoo trip perhaps?

I'm almost wondering if your 19 is a bit fussy about ammo or if there is another mechanical issue undetected. :confused:

Ga Shooter
11-19-2011, 07:48 AM
WOW!! Thanks for the offer. I will get in touch with you after the first of the year. I really appreciate it. I know there are software issues as well but the press six is bad even for me. Thanks for the help.

JodyH
11-22-2011, 09:20 AM
My wife was shooting slightly low with Hacks on her Glock 19.
She was slightly anticipating and pushing low. I finally proved this to her by installing a laser sight and having her shoot a few drills with that.
Pretty obvious when the green dot goes to 6 o'clock just before the shot breaks.
I don't know why or if the Hacks contributed to the anticipation or if it was just a coincidence it manifested itself at the same time she went from Big Dots to the Hacks.
She's worked it out now and is back on target.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

Ga Shooter
04-22-2012, 05:02 PM
Thank you. :) I'm human again, though not 100%.

If you get up this way, let me host you at our range. Zoo trip perhaps?

I'm almost wondering if your 19 is a bit fussy about ammo or if there is another mechanical issue undetected. :confused:

Well 5 long months later Al T. and I finally got to meet up. Wow what a great guy and great range. We got to play around with some .22s to start the day and then made our way to a pistol bay to get me straightened out. During our conversation the topic of trying new methods to see what works best only really applies if you have a good baseline to start with. I indicated that because of the accuracy issues I had been trying just about everything I was reading on the internet but did not feel that I could say that I had a good baseline to compare to. That all changed yesterday for me. Having only 1 formal class before I still questioned some of my basics (stance, grip, etc.) Al is very thoughfull in his instruction and very encouraging when you are doing it right. After he watched me shoot a few times he checked my grip and stance and sight alignment. He even snuck in a ball and dummy drill on me to check for flinching. To my suprise he found no problem with any of the above. So what is my problem? Trigger manipulation while thinking. Having shot revolvers, 1911's and precision rifles my whole life the act of me shooting to reset causes me to actually overthink the trigger press and I start to wobble. He then introduced me to the press and flip. I went from about a 5" group to about 2" (5-7 yards) in a matter of 2 minutes. What a difference someone with a trained eye can make. I feel like now I have a base to truly develop from. I also feel like I met a new friend yesterday and hope to do more shooting with Al in the future. Thank you.

ErnieB
04-22-2012, 05:33 PM
The problem you are having is similar to a problem I am having with sights with an all black rear and a dot (tritium, fiber optic) front. I am now looking at going back to a two dot rear to help with alignment in all lighting conditions. Not sure if this will help you but I am finding it seems to be helping with my issue. Just a thought...

Al T.
04-22-2012, 07:08 PM
:D, gosh thanks. I thought it said bunches about you that traveling 3+ hours one way to get some coaching was on your agenda.

GS, you were a bit puzzling as you were doing so little incorrectly, it was just that the darn bullets weren't getting the message! Good stance, grip, had to be trigger manipulation. But you shot both my 617 and your M&P 15-22 very, very well.

So I shot your Gen4 G19 (nice gun!) and it wasn't the gun.

I got my clue when you mentioned over thinking. Like TLG says, sometimes to go faster, you have to go faster. The press and flip was just a vehicle to get your finger moving faster. :D Like I showed you, the finger isn't everything, it's one part of the tripod of grip, sight alignment and trigger control. But when it all works in concert.... :cool:

Chuck Haggard
04-22-2012, 08:19 PM
With my Ameriglo sights I was shooting low, the guys at Ameriglo told me they regulate the sights so that POI is to the front dot, not to the top of the front sight. I fixed my POA vs POI issue by using the G21 rear sight on my G17s to raise the POI since I use the top of the sight and not the front dot.