Ammo loadout and suggested training for shotgun equipped deputies

[deputyG23]

I am currently working on a budget request to buy twenty-five rifles and associated gear for twenty-two road deputies whose primary duties are civil enforcement and prisoner transport. We are expected to respond to any active shooter event that may occur in our jurisdiction.The chances of the rifles being approved are much less than fifty percent, therefore I am planning to continue with what we have as well. We currently have 20" full stock extended mag 870s with rifle sights in service with all of the civil folks and only twenty percent of the prisoner transport folks. They are completely stock with no add ons of any type.
Once out of the academy, there is no shotgun training, per se. There is a yearly qualification shoot of five 00 Buck and five slugs. This is also the amount of ammo issued to each shotgun equipped member. Most individuals have to have a quick refresher each year on how to load and unload the shotgun. A sizable number forget to work the slide after firing. For most of our folks, the SG is a twenty-five yard weapon as far as skill. Slugs are the recommended carry round.
My questions are:
How many shotgun rounds is a reasonable loadout for an active shooter scenario? We have 5.11 go bags that are intended for rifle mags.
What kind and frequency of skill building shotgun training is best for our mission and current equipment?
Thanks in advance and feel free to PM if desired.

[Jim Watson]

I don't know The Answer, but just to set an upper limit, how much training and practice do these deputies get with their pistols?

I know I don't enjoy shooting a pump shotgun with full charge loads, so I don't do it very much. A gas gun with target loads is a different matter.

[L-2]

My questions are:
How many shotgun rounds is a reasonable loadout for an active shooter scenario? We have 5.11 go bags that are intended for rifle mags.
What kind and frequency of skill building shotgun training is best for our mission and current equipment?
Thanks in advance and feel free to PM if desired.
1. How many rounds? That's a judgement call and feel free to encourage your Deputies to carry more ammo if it's any more comfort to them. In my department, we're carrying 4 slugs and 4 00buck, all in/on the gun. Carrying more somehow is allowed, but "how" is personal preference if done at all.
2. I'm unfamiliar with the 5.11 "Go Bags". Perhaps you could post a link. If there's a large pocket to have loose ammo (slugs) for ease of getting one's hand in and out, it might be ok.
3. There are various tactical shotgun courses being taught around the country or the instructor/school can travel to your location. I'd encourage you and your range staff to take some of these courses; come up with a plan or personalized course for your department; and incorporate it into your training plan. During your periodic qualifications, incorporate that training into the qualification. I understand it is tough. Our department of ~600 LEOs is supposed to get everybody a 2-day shotgun training course, but we're going into year 2 with not even half the department having taken the time & budget to get it done.

Furthermore, each department will have "shooters" and those who have no interest at all in shooting. I suspect the "shooters" will need less frequency in skill building as they'll do the shooting and training on their own time. Coming from the lowest level of LEO in my department, I'd encourage LEOs to request the training and for management to approve it, whether reimbursed or at least approval to take the time off, whether paid or not, but approved to take a class.

Here's one source of training: http://internationaltactical.com/courses_shotgun.html AND http://internationaltactical.com/offsite.html

[Al T.]

One thing I see overlooked by some local PDs is that a large proportion of shotguns skills can be performed dry. IMHO, some dummy rounds and dry manipulation drills should pay some dividends for not much time or expense.

[Paul Sharp]

Are sidesaddles an option? If you're submitting paperwork for rifles, could you also submit paperwork for small upgrades to the existing shotties? Sometimes they'll deny the bigger item, but give you the smaller item as a token...

If not, attaching a shell caddy or two to the mag pockets of your go bag might not be a bad option. Sling the go-bag so it hangs on your support side, you can support hand reload from the bag as you go. The caddy will keep the shells oriented properly so your night grabbing a handful of shells in random configurations. 10 shells total isn't a lot however, most active shooters off themselves when confronted by the first responders so 10 might be enough. A few 4 or 8 round shell caddies in the go bag, 5-9 rounds on board the shottie plus a pistol to transition to with a few pistol mags on the belt to keep the pistol running? I think that would work for keeping a guy in the fight long enough to stop an incident, even involving multiple shooters.

[Hauptmann]

As far as ammo goes, in general the equipment on your person is what ends up getting used in a rapidly evolving event. Look at your duty belt........can you deal with a wide variety of scenarios with what's on that belt to at least hold you over until backup arrives?

The same applies to the deployment of the long gun. Usually, the average officer under high stress who thinks to grab the long gun(rare) just grabs the long gun. Things happen so rapidly, and the cost of taking your eyes off the situation can often limit how many times you can go diving into your vehicle to retrieve equipment. So, when it comes to equipment make it simple, make it easily and rapidly accessible(hopefully one vehicle dive), and your standard should help the least among you. Unfortunately, many firearms programs are run by gun guys with egos, that push equipment upon the staff that favors the most skilled in the crew, and often leaves the non-gun officers behind. For lack of a better word, your department standard should be relatively idiot proof so that the less skilled officers can still get the job done when their heart rate is pushing 200bpm.

For 870s, I would consider a simple 2-point sling, mounting a high visibility front night sight, attaching a 6-round side saddle to the receiver, and an adjustable(or reduced LOP) stock. Another nice addition would be to add a Magpul forend with tac light attachement. A TLR-1 on the side of the forend will illuminate the front sight which will greatly aid in low light shooting. When using iron sights, I think it is more beneficial to use the side mounted light for this very reason......sub barrel lights do not illuminate that front sight. Shortening the barrel to at least 18" will also reduce the forend weight so that less strong officers will be able to more comfortably keep the shotgun on target.

As for loadouts, it depends. For daytime highway patrol, penetrator slugs should be what's in the tube, but leave a few buckshot in the side saddle in case of the odd-ball situation that needs something with lower penetration. Slugs would also be preferred if the scenario involves ranges beyond 25yrds. Night patrol though has limited ranges due to lighting, and buckshot would be preferred. Any scenario that has limitations on engagement ranges, buckshot is very much preferred as it tends to have superior shot per shot terminal effects as demonstrated by the IWBA, Dr. Fackler, and Dr. Roberts. Hardened or copper plated 00 or #1 buckshot are the better loads for LE use. As for extra ammo, it needs to be easy to grab and load. Loose shotgun shells in a pocket don't cut it. Using speed strips tends to be a good option, as it keeps the shells in a "battle pack" setup, and the average officer can easily see or feel if the shells are buckshot or slugs.

[deputyG23]

I don't know The Answer, but just to set an upper limit, how much training and practice do these deputies get with their pistols?

I know I don't enjoy shooting a pump shotgun with full charge loads, so I don't do it very much. A gas gun with target loads is a different matter.
Not nearly enough pistol time, for sure. One qualification shoot per year, two daytime courses, no night fire since '08 when the economy went into the crapper. No live open range days. We have access to a MILO simulator facility 2x/month at a local private university CJ program. Training director budgeted this FY for extra time and ammo and the request was denied. Not feeling well about liability issues if something goes bad. Decision was made way above my level.

[Hauptmann]

Not nearly enough pistol time, for sure. One qualification shoot per year, two daytime courses, no night fire since '08 when the economy went into the crapper. No live open range days. We have access to a MILO simulator facility 2x/month at a local private university CJ program. Training director budgeted this FY for extra time and ammo and the request was denied. Not feeling well about liability issues if something goes bad. Decision was made way above my level.

With so little training time, you guys probably need to forgo the carbine program and stick with 870s(no semiautos). It is about as close to the simplicity of a revolver as you can get in a long gun. With a carbine program you really need 3-4 good training sessions a year to stay proficient.

[Rex G]

Eagle Industries makes a 12-round shotshell carrier, marketed as the "Patrol Bandoleer." A flap covers the shotshells. Along each edge is a pouch that holds a pistol magazine, multi-tool, or such. A strap allows this shell carrier to be quickly slung cross-body. When I bought mine, "Active Shooter" was, I think, part of the name, but finding it on the Eagle Industries site, it is now the Patrol Bandoleer. It can be slung on a vehicle seat's headrest, if care is taken to make sure the strap does not become wedged or tangled.

Blade-tech makes, or used to make, two-shell belt carriers, with Tech-Lok attachment.

I bought several similar two-round Safariland shotshell carriers that have a molded belt clip, that fits up to a 2.25" duty belt, rather than a Tech-Lok, and the belt clip does not last forever. I have one left, with an intact belt clip; the others developed a crack. I ran out of space on my duty belt, as we are compelled to carry more stuff, so currently have no shotshells on the duty belt, and therefore have not yet destroyed my last Safariland shotshell carrier.

Another shotgun accessory I like, that might not be seen so favorably by admin types, due to its high profile, is a light-weight, reasonably unobtrusive two-shell Kydex carrier, intended for a 1.75" pants belt, but worn on an epaulet. Mine was made by Mad Dog Gun Glove, which I believe is now no longer making any Kydex products other than sheaths for his/their own custom knives. (Not sure if Mad Dog is a one-man operation, or a small company.) I wear mine on the right epaulet, with the shells positioned to be dispensed by a firm forward pull. This is not perfect, as the shell is not ideally positioned in the hand, but is, at least, close to the ejection port. (I shoot long guns lefty.)

[jnc36rcpd]

It does sound like you have an uphill battle to improve your agency's weapons and training. If your county has a police department as well as a sheriff's office, I'd start beating the drum that deputies are responding to the same calls as county police and need to be similarly prepared with rifles and training. That said, I tend to agree with Hauptman that improved shotgun training and gear is a more realistic option.

My thought would be to go with Esstac shotgun cards or something similar, One can be Velcroed to the shotgun and others placed in the 5.11 bag. I don't think there is an absolute answer to how much ammunition one should carry. While there have been and will continue to be incidents in which LEO's are required to fire a high volume of rounds, most are resolved with few shots fired. I'm not sure which 5.11 bag you're using, but I suspect three cards will likely carry the day in most domestic law enforcement responses, especially as patrol officers and road deputies are likely to be replaced by or supported by SWAT in an protracted incident.

Edited to mention that the patrol bandoleer mentioned by Rex hands from the headrest of my cruiser.

[SkiDevil]

You may want to check in with the NRA and see what Law Enforcement training is available in your region.

There may be some low-cost options or grants available for your agency with the NRA.

Also, (the late) Lious Awerbuck was a noted authority on shotguns. Some of his past writing and books covered tactics, training, drills, employment, and ammunition selection. His work may be worth looking at if you decide to piece together a program on your own.

http://le.nra.org/training/instructor-development-schools.aspx

http://le.nra.org/training.aspx

https://robarguns.com/blog/2013/08/07/the-shotgun-by-louis-awerbuck/

https://www.amazon.com/Defensive-Shotgun-Louis-Awerbuck/dp/0879474122

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4objym5zh7c

[GJM]

From an equipment, ammo and training perspective, this seems very minimalist. Really reinforces how individuals are ultimately on their own for acquiring life saving skills in police work, flying and other activities.

[Wheeler]

Velcro shotshell cards to the side of the receivers sounds like they would be a good option for more ammo, they also slide handily into a M4 magazine pouch.

[john c]

I'm in agreement with the others that a simple two point sling, good rifle sights, a light, and additional ammo on board are the basics.

My agency went away from buckshot about 15 years ago for liability reasons. It's too easy to spill a couple of buckshot from a pattern off of a target, assuming a good hit in the first place. In an active shooter situation, there will be bystanders, since that's what the active shooter is shooting when you get there.

We use, and I'm a fan of, low recoil slugs. I find that low recoil rounds have 10% less recoil. For me, that's the difference between pain and not pain when shooting. The price is about the same, and the stopping power remains substantial.

I'm also not a fan of keeping different rounds in/on the gun for different purposes. Simplicity is golden, and to me a weapon should have one purpose and mode of use. Shotguns are for launching lethal force slugs, and nothing else. To think an officer, under stress, would be able to discern the need to a different type of ammo and then change seems a stretch to me.

I like the Speed Feed stocks. It has the advantage of not weighting the gun oddly. My issue shotgun has a sidesaddle, and I'm not a huge fan of the weight of the loaded shells off the left side. It's a compromise, but I think an extended mag tube and Speed Feed stock balances the gun better. Speed Feed stocks aren't the easiest to load from, but it does add more ammo to the equation. I see the advantages of adjustable LOP stocks, and we have them on our patrol shotguns, but I prefer the on board ammo of the Speed Feed. I also am tall enough that I don't need short LOP guns, even wearing a vest. In fact, I've banged my nose with my thumb knuckle a couple of times shooting short stocked shotguns to be careful. But smaller statured officers would need a shorter LOP. It also makes it easier to get in and out of the car.

The most valuable shotgun training you could do would be non-firing, and just handling the gun in building searches. Practicing slinging the shotgun to go hands on with suspects or victims is a learned skill.

Ammo load out is five in the magazine (1 round magazine extension) and four or six in the side saddle or Speed Feed stock.

[deputyG23]

Any suggestions on which two point sling to get for the 870s? Our county PD has the Uncle Mikes Tactical Shotgun sling. Their head firearms guy is not fond of them.

[MPG]

Any suggestions on which two point sling to get for the 870s? Our county PD has the Uncle Mikes Tactical Shotgun sling. Their head firearms guy is not fond of them.

Not LE, but I use a Spectre Gear 2 point sling on my 870 through multiple shotgun courses (Rob Haught, Awerbuck and some local instructors) without issue. Work much like the BFG Vickers 2 points (which you can use on a 870 w/ GG&G front sling point and BFG's A2 stock adapter also).

https://www.spectergear.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=48

[Hambo]

I bought several similar two-round Safariland shotshell carriers that have a molded belt clip, that fits up to a 2.25" duty belt,

I still have these as well, but I did a quick online search and couldn't find them. This is what they look like, but I don't know if these hold up or not. https://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Arms-Gear-Cartridge-Ambidextrous/dp/B0163GOCJ4?SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag=duckduckgo-d-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B0163GOCJ4

I'd second dry manipulation drills: zero cost, zero recoil. Does your organization do any training at roll call? You could add some dry work several times per year so at least they've had their hands on the shotguns.

For low cost, low recoil live fire you could buy a few cases of bird shot. Tom Givens' has students bring more birdshot than 00 to his one day shotgun course.

[MVS]

If at all possible I would suggest this. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?21264-Rangemaster-Defensive-Shotgun-Instructor-10-21-23-2016-Martin-GA

[shootist26]

Buy a lot of 12ga ST Action pro dummy shells. They are way better than the a-zooms in my experience. Do dry manipulations on a regular basis

[DamonL]

I still have these as well, but I did a quick online search and couldn't find them. This is what they look like, but I don't know if these hold up or not. https://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Arms-Gear-Cartridge-Ambidextrous/dp/B0163GOCJ4?SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag=duckduckgo-d-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B0163GOCJ4

I'd second dry manipulation drills: zero cost, zero recoil. Does your organization do any training at roll call? You could add some dry work several times per year so at least they've had their hands on the shotguns.

For low cost, low recoil live fire you could buy a few cases of bird shot. Tom Givens' has students bring more birdshot than 00 to his one day shotgun course.

Safariland still makes the shotshell holder.

https://www.safariland.com/miscellaneous/shot-shell-holder-1097442.html

[KevH]

I wrote our shotgun policy.

We have Remington 870's with Ghost Ring sights (rifle sights work well too), a Surefire forend, a +1 mag extension, a four-round sidesaddle, and a VTac sling.

Loadout is 4 rounds of Federal ControlFlite 00 Buck in the tube and four Winchester low-recoil slugs on the sidesaddle. Officers can carry just 00Buck (8 rounds total) if they so prefer. The +1 extension allows for inserting a slug from patrol ready if they feel the need.

The ControlFlite wad changed the game in 00 Buck. It's a great round and spread is minimal. We still carry slugs, but once you've seen what the 00 Buck round does to a modern automobile you'll realize the slugs have minimal utility unless you're dealing with body armor or a distance of more than 40 feet or so. We've had officer involved shootings with the Federal round and it has performed extremely well.

A large sheriff's office local to us here did a very well thought-out study on shotgun engagements and decided eight rounds was the ideal amount of ammo to issue with a shotgun. I agree.

[rojocorsa]

Only 8? Interesting...

[TGS]

Only 8? Interesting...

We have an 8 round load out as well. 14" M870Ps, 4 rounds in tube, 4 in a pouch on the stock.

We use Ranger 00 for duty. It patterns poorly.....I wouldn't be comfortable taking a shot past 15 yards unless I had a solid backstop. Switching to Federal Flite-Control is probably the best upgrade a PD could make.

[john c]

Most officer involved shootings are just that, shootings. They're not gunfights. 8 rounds is generally sufficient. If not, another tool is needed.

Besides, shotgun ammo weighs a TON. You generally get 11 rounds per pound, compared to 40 for .223. How many pounds (not rounds) of ammo are you going to carry on the gun or on your person?

I agree that Flite Control 00 buck is a game changer, but you're still responsible for every pellet, versus one slug. I may be unduly biased; the only shotgun OIS I'm aware of at my agency in recent decades resulted in one KIA. An officer was killed by an errand pellet that left the pattern and skipped off the ground, striking him in the abdomen below his vest. Flite Control may have prevented this tragedy, but the fact remains that not every pellet hits the target.

[farscott]

One thing I see overlooked by some local PDs is that a large proportion of shotguns skills can be performed dry. IMHO, some dummy rounds and dry manipulation drills should pay some dividends for not much time or expense.

The above is so true.

Another thing that helps is to use the duty gun to shoot clay sports. The idea is to get used to manipulating the gun with loads that are not too tough on the shoulder. A little bit of friendly competition to get the stress level up a bit helps as well. Not to mention, the funny looks you get when you shoot a round of skeet with an 870P with a ghost ring rear sight.

If you cannot get rifles, perhaps you can get some training for the guns you have.

[jnc36rcpd]

john c, any thoughts on the risks of over-penetration from slugs rater than buckshot? While the Flite Control buckshot is going to spread eventually, it is unlikely to spread very far within most engagement distances and the buckshot will likely run out of steam or hit something in your backdrop rather cause unintentional death or injury.

KevH, can you provide some data on how the Ideal 8 concept was developed?

Thanks and be safe.

[stinx]

My agency shotgun is the Benelli M-2 super 90. Our load out is 5 rounds of slug in the gun and a 5-11 shotgun pouch thats holds 25 additional rounds of slug. I attached to the pouch the shoulder straps from a 5-11 patrol bag so the guys/girls can sling the ammo pouch on their off side. Shotguns at my agency only go out on the road when no rifles are available YMMV

[john c]

john c, any thoughts on the risks of over-penetration from slugs rater than buckshot? While the Flite Control buckshot is going to spread eventually, it is unlikely to spread very far within most engagement distances and the buckshot will likely run out of steam or hit something in your backdrop rather cause unintentional death or injury.

KevH, can you provide some data on how the Ideal 8 concept was developed?

Thanks and be safe.

I can't comment on overpenetration issues, other than that it's probably a factor. However, I would like to point out that slugs penetrate level 3 ballistic vests, some thing that individual buck shot won't do. I don't know about Flite Control buck on ballistic vests, but shotgun slugs zip right through.

[john c]

I can't comment on overpenetration issues, other than that it's probably a factor. However, I would like to point out that slugs penetrate level 3 ballistic vests, some thing that individual buck shot won't do. I don't know about Flite Control buck on ballistic vests, but shotgun slugs zip right through.

I can't edit this now, but the second sentence should read "level 3A ballistic vests".

[Erick Gelhaus]

We issue 14" 870s with ghost ring sights, Side Saddles, and slings. (Mag extentions are optional) That set-up gives the cop ten (10) rounds coming out of the rack. As long as they do not skip load, they can set the load up anyway they choose. Since I know use the shotgun as an counter-vehicle tool, mine has 10 Brenneke slugs & no 00Buck, none.

The most common set-up are 4 rds 00B in the tube and either 6 slugs or 2 00B / 4 slugs in the side saddle. WAY back, because I saw a LAPD shotgun set up that way, I carried 4 in the tube, 6 00B in the Side Saddle, and 6 slugs in a butt cuff. Yeah, not so much anymore.

If it was my only long gun, I'd set up a micro chest rig / bandoleer with no more than 20 more rds on it.

[Rex G]

Some question a single-digit toal load-out for shotgun ammo, but, as one reply already mentioned, shotgun ammo is heavy and bulky. One quickly reaches the point at which slinging a bag containing a large volume of shotgun ammo is more trouble than slinging a bag containing a light-weight rifle and a few loaded mags.

Then, of course, there is the question of how many shotguns rounds are likely to be fired, in a single incident. I see a shotgun as a means to quickly stop/end a fight. If things become prolonged, it is time for the younger, stronger guys and gals, arriving with their patrol rifles, and with time to don the hard armor, to take over. (I aged-out of our fast-paced, athletic patrol rifle qual, choosing to sell my Colt Govt Carbine to a younger officer, who later became one of my sergeants. The qual has been changed to something I can probably pass well enough, but I would have to repeat the 40-hour carbine certification, and getting scheduled for that is no simple task, plus, it might be better not to displace one of the younger officers from one of the too-few spots in the too-few certification classes.)

[Erick Gelhaus]

I can't comment on overpenetration issues, other than that it's probably a factor. However, I would like to point out that slugs penetrate level 3 ballistic vests, some thing that individual buck shot won't do. I don't know about Flite Control buck on ballistic vests, but shotgun slugs zip right through.

Interesting. I've shot a bunch of vests over the years with a variety of loads and I have not seen a ballistic vest fail when hit by a slug. Not even when a full power load, such as a Brenneke, is used. Granted, the back face deformation can be significant. The slugs I see are generally being stopped in the front half of the panels.

What armor are you seeing fail and what load is defeating them?

[Jim Watson]

The OP's deputies don't seem to be doing a lot of shooting.
How much training does it take to recognize the maximum all-pellets-on-target range of buckshot? How much training and practice does it take for "select slug" if you start out with buckshot?
I would think about sticking to low recoil slugs and employing the rifle sighted shotgun as a carbine.

[DocGKR]

Most common slugs should be stopped by IIIa armor.

[GJM]

Most common slugs should be stopped by IIIa armor.

Would you include a Brenneke classic magnum in the "common slug" category? Also, even if it didn't penetrate, what trauma would it likely do to the person wearing that armor?

[DocGKR]

I consider typical slugs to be about 1oz or so at around 1200-1600 fps. There will likely be substantial bruising, perhaps some broken ribs, and potential damage to internal organs--it all depends on multiple factors including the specific projectile, armor, anatomy of the individual, etc... The key is that there is not the rapid incapacitation and death that often occurs with solid torso hits using quality, early upsetting .30 cal projectiles.

[GJM]

I consider typical slugs to be about 1oz or so at around 1200-1600 fps. There will likely be substantial bruising, perhaps some broken ribs, and potential damage to internal organs--it all depends on multiple factors including the specific projectile, armor, anatomy of the individual, etc...

Thank you. So if encountering someone with that level armor, if you had a shotgun with slugs, would you target the head or pelvis avoiding the armor, or would you also shoot the chest, thinking the slug would still be somewhat effective despite the armor?

[deputyG23]

The OP's deputies don't seem to be doing a lot of shooting.
How much training does it take to recognize the maximum all-pellets-on-target range of buckshot? How much training and practice does it take for "select slug" if you start out with buckshot?
I would think about sticking to low recoil slugs and employing the rifle sighted shotgun as a carbine.
This is what we recommend to our shotgun users. Ammo is Ranger low recoil slugs. We do issue five rounds of Ranger 00 low recoil buck, but most of our people keep five slugs in the tube.

[DocGKR]

Typically it would be hard to tell if someone was wearing concealable level IIIa or under armor. If the first hits to the torso are ineffective, then targeting another anatomical area would be prudent. Also, at closer ranges, say under 10 yds, it is not unreasonable to initially target the head of the violent opponent--a load of #1 buckshot or slug to the face often times gets an attacker's attention and persuades them to stop their aggressive actions...

[KevH]

john c, any thoughts on the risks of over-penetration from slugs rater than buckshot? While the Flite Control buckshot is going to spread eventually, it is unlikely to spread very far within most engagement distances and the buckshot will likely run out of steam or hit something in your backdrop rather cause unintentional death or injury.

KevH, can you provide some data on how the Ideal 8 concept was developed?

Thanks and be safe.

If you want the agency info send me a PM. They basically analyzed the use of the shotgun by departments in the SF Bay Area for the last twenty years or so prior. If memory serves there was never more than three or four shotgun rounds fired.

They also took into account the weight and bulk of shotgun rounds and the different means of carrying them.

There are of course outliers, but I'm aware of very few instances where a shotgun has been used in some type of prolonged engagement more than a few rounds.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Thank you. So if encountering someone with that level armor, if you had a shotgun with slugs, would you target the head or pelvis avoiding the armor, or would you also shoot the chest, thinking the slug would still be somewhat effective despite the armor?

George - as was mentioned I doubt one would initially pick up on the presence of concealed armor - at least not until one was getting solid upper torso hits without effect. External armor may trip the visual indicator, depending on distance, color, etc but could be mistaken for just load carriage equipment. Unless one has worked recently, or at length, on shifting to a secondary target after a few solid hits without effect it might take a bit for that to happen.

Last time down at ITTS, we were working pepper poppers on the move. Scotty had sent them to need headshots. Even in an 'advanced' class focusing on handling a specific problem, guys were continuing to target the center of the popper w/out shifting to the head - until they were reminded.

[Sigfan26]

Thank you. So if encountering someone with that level armor, if you had a shotgun with slugs, would you target the head or pelvis avoiding the armor, or would you also shoot the chest, thinking the slug would still be somewhat effective despite the armor?

Pick the one where his index finger stops working[emoji6]


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[john c]

Interesting. I've shot a bunch of vests over the years with a variety of loads and I have not seen a ballistic vest fail when hit by a slug. Not even when a full power load, such as a Brenneke, is used. Granted, the back face deformation can be significant. The slugs I see are generally being stopped in the front half of the panels.

What armor are you seeing fail and what load is defeating them?

I'll check with the range masters. I wasn't conducting the tests, but I was on the range when the range masters were shooting level IIIa vests with slugs. I saw the aftermath of the penetration of the vest.


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