J Frame POA/POI

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I have read that J Frame sights are calibrated for 158gn. I have also read that 130-135's P+ are giving same POA/POI as the 158's. Does anyone have experience with both from the same revolver?

[SAWBONES]

I have read that J Frame sights are calibrated for 158gn. I have also read that 130-135's P+ are giving same POA/POI as the 158's. Does anyone have experience with both from the same revolver?

Yes. IME that isn't so.

I have multiple J frames in .38 Special and .357 Magnum, mostly with 1 7/8" barrels, from the scandium alloy lightest weight models to solid steel models.

The steel 1 7/8" barreled guns all seem to be regulated such that POI corresponds to POA for 158gr+P loads, best exemplified with Remington's premium LSWCHP.

NONE of those guns hit to POI with lighter weight rounds, with Gold Dot .38 Special+P 135gr JHP having been tested most consistently among all of them. The lighter Speer rounds consistently hit low.

The scandium alloy guns (340PDs, ostensibly in .357 Magnum) OTOH are very close to having POI = POI with said Gold Dot+P 135gr JHP load, but hit high with 158gr Winchester, Remington and Buffalo Bore +P LSWCHP loads.

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That's what I needed. Thank you.


Yes. IME that isn't so.

I have multiple J frames in .38 Special and .357 Magnum, mostly with 1 7/8" barrels, from the scandium alloy lightest weight models to solid steel models.

The steel 1 7/8" barreled guns all seem to be regulated such that POI corresponds to POA for 158gr+P loads, best exemplified with Remington's premium LSWCHP.

NONE of those guns hit to POI with lighter weight rounds, with Gold Dot .38 Special+P 135gr JHP having been tested most consistently among all of them. The lighter Speer rounds consistently hit low.

The scandium alloy guns (340PDs, ostensibly in .357 Magnum) OTOH are very close to having POI = POI with said Gold Dot+P 135gr JHP load, but hit high with 158gr Winchester, Remington and Buffalo Bore +P LSWCHP loads.

[LtDave]

When you find a j frame that shoots to the sights, treasure it. In my experience, it is a rare occurrence. I have a bunch of them and only one or two manage to regulate with anything. My most recent problem child is a 640 pro that shoots low with everything, like 4-6" low at 15 yards. So far the only thing that comes close to POA is a light .357 handload with a 180 grain bullet.

[Buckshot]

When you find a j frame that shoots to the sights, treasure it. In my experience, it is a rare occurrence. I have a bunch of them and only one or two manage to regulate with anything. My most recent problem child is a 640 pro that shoots low with everything, like 4-6" low at 15 yards. So far the only thing that comes close to POA is a light .357 handload with a 180 grain bullet.
The cure for the gross POI problem is often recrowning the barrel. Factory crowns, esp. S&W snubs are often pretty crappy.

[SAWBONES]

I agree.

The original steel J frames are apparently intended to shoot to POA with 158gr+P loads.

Some definitely do. I have a treasured 649 that does so quite reliably.

The perceived commercial desire for extremely lightweight CCW guns has prompted S&W's production of the titanium/scandium alloy J frame guns, whether as primary or backup guns.

I've got two of 'em, both 340PDs, and have shot both of them extensively with every single commercial premium .357 Magnum round made, from 10 to 50 rounds each.

I'm not "recoil sensitive", and though the 125gr .357 Magnum loads truly weren't fun to shoot (hell, NONE of the .357 rounds were "fun"!), they were nonetheless controllable in (very) slow fire, and simply were neither particularly accurate nor especially precise in my hands, compared to the better premium .38 Special loads.

In my particular experience, the Gold Dot 135gr+P "short barrel" .38 Special+P loads provided the best accuracy and precision in these little featherweight revolvers.

As always, "YMMV".

I'm no longer a practitioner of J frame primary carry, personally, preferring a G26 or a Colt CCO in that role, and I no longer carry a backup gun at all (I'm not a LEO), except in rare circumstances, though I do always carry reloads.

[Paul Sharp]

I have read that J Frame sights are calibrated for 158gn. I have also read that 130-135's P+ are giving same POA/POI as the 158's. Does anyone have experience with both from the same revolver?
My J's perform better with heavier rounds. The lighter rounds were all over the place, the heavier rounds hit POA/POI well enough. For a time the 3x5 drill was my favorite drill to shoot with various pistols as a way of vetting carry loads and performance at various ranges. With the heavier rounds I actually shot a successful 3x5 drill, except with 5 rounds at each distance instead of the 6 the drill calls for. After I posted the video of that on FB, Todd sent me a message saying I had found a unicorn since that kind of accuracy from a J isn't common. I only have three J's, they all perform better with heavier rounds. Only one is capable of shooting the 3x5 drill successfully, (or is it I'm only able to put together a successful run with one J?), the others come close and there is a significant difference when trying a dot drill or something similar with the lighter rounds. High right is an understatement...

[deputyG23]

This concurs with my experience. My '70s M60 shoots to POA with 158 grain ammo and low with Gold Dots. My 2013 442-2 does better with 135 grain Gold Dot.

[LSP552]

I've been lucky over the years. I've owned probably 10 or so various J-frames since 1977. All have been close enough for center hits in the chest to 25 yards with wadcutters (my preference) or 158 gr LSW. My current 642 and 442 are no exception. Lighter and faster rounds, like the Gold Dot do shoot low.

[GAP]

I just purchased my first 642 and shot it for the first time today.

I used 148gr Federal Wadcutters. Even at 5 yards they shot about an inch high, increasing with distance from there.

Would the recommendation be to try lighter and faster such as the Gold dot, go heavier with a SWC or just get used to where the Federal wadcutters hit and move on?

[LtDave]

Lighter and faster "usually" shoot lower. Also try some other brands of wadcutters if you can find them. They may shoot to a different POI.

[UNK]

Like how much for each 5 additional yards and at what point does it start coming back down? I'm not sure I would worry about an inch.


I just purchased my first 642 and shot it for the first time today.

I used 148gr Federal Wadcutters. Even at 5 yards they shot about an inch high, increasing with distance from there.

Would the recommendation be to try lighter and faster such as the Gold dot, go heavier with a SWC or just get used to where the Federal wadcutters hit and move on?

[GAP]

Like how much for each 5 additional yards and at what point does it start coming back down? I'm not sure I would worry about an inch.

I misspoke, it was closer to 2" high at 5 yards. From 25 yards off of a rest, it was about 6" high. I am not sure where it starts to come back down, 25 was the farthest I shot today.

[Malamute]

Well, on the bright side, youre probably good for a body hold out to about 100 yards.

[GAP]

I probably should have purchased five different boxes of .38 sp to test rather than several of the same. :mad:

[Malamute]

Still on the bright side, this is how we learn stuff. Its still trigger time. Up close it wont matter as much for practice.

[camsdaddy]

I have a 60 that shoots POA with just about anything from 5 yards to minute of eight inch plate out to 25 yards. I have a 360j that seems to shoot 3-4" low with just about anything at 5 yards. I sent it back and s&w adjusted the barrel and returned it with a target with a nice group but low but I don't know the distance. I will take it tomorrow and shoot it. My two main loads are 2.8 bullseye under 148 dewc or 3.5 titegroup under 158 SWC.

[Dropkick]

I've always heard J-frames being touted as hard too shoot, but I didn't realize the extent of how finicky they are when it comes to ammo.

[nalesq]

I've always heard J-frames being touted as hard too shoot, but I didn't realize the extent of how finicky they are when it comes to ammo.

99.997% of j frame owners never shoot far away or accurately enough where it would be noticeable at all. So there is not much incentive for S&W to do anything about it, such as making their j frames with decent, reasonably robust and adjustable sights.

[41magfan]

I bought my first new J-Frame in 1979 and have owned over a dozen samples since then. Up until the 90’s, most of my guns shot to POA (well within my wobble zone) with 140-158 gr bullets at standard velocity.

Beginning in the early to mid-90’s, the guns seem to require lighter ammo in the 125-130 gr range to achieve POA/POI and the windage wasn’t quite as predictable as earlier models.

I have not owned a J-Frame with the two piece barrel design so my experience is limited to shooting a couple of Mod 340's that displayed a very workable POI with 135 gr Gold Dots.

[Chuck Haggard]

All of the traditional sighted steel frame or aluminium frame Js that I have had were as dead on as they could get with 158gr ammo. Dead on or close enough with wadcutters. They were kind of designed for the days when there were two .38 special loads, service and target.

Some of the newer guns were all over the place.

[GAP]

I picked up a box of 158gr Speer Lawman and a box of 130gr +p Ranger, I'll see if the POI changes with either vs the 148gr Federal Wadcutters.

[UNK]

I shot an aluminum frame and a M&P this last weekend at 25 yards, first time I had ever shot either one of those that far. Quite a humbling experience.

[camsdaddy]

I shot an aluminum frame and a M&P this last weekend at 25 yards, first time I had ever shot either one of those that far. Quite a humbling experience.

I just traded my 360j (for Springfield 1911a1)earlier in the week and I agree. I found shooting my 60 to be a lot easier and found carrying my 60 not that more difficult. I can shoot the 8" plate regular at 25 and the small swinging plates as well. I will keep shooting it.

[UNK]

Those don't fit in my pocket. :mad:


I just traded my 360j (for Springfield 1911a1)earlier in the week and I agree. I found shooting my 60 to be a lot easier and found carrying my 60 not that more difficult. I can shoot the 8" plate regular at 25 and the small swinging plates as well. I will keep shooting it.

[camsdaddy]

Those don't fit in my pocket. :mad:

Darn I didn't think of that.
I will continue to carry my 60 when I need a pocket gun.

[UNK]

I am wearing deluths which are known to have generous pockets. How are you pulling this off?


Darn I didn't think of that.
I will continue to carry my 60 when I need a pocket gun.

[camsdaddy]

I am wearing deluths which are known to have generous pockets. How are you pulling this off?
I carry my S&W 2" Model 60. I had originally bought the 360J to carry in my pocket but I found it not fun to shoot nor could I shoot it as well. I traded the 360 for a 1911 and will continue to carry my 60 in pocket. The 60 and the 360 are the same size. I carry them in a Mika round cut.

[UNK]

OK Now its clear. I thought you were talking the 3".


I carry my S&W 2" Model 60. I had originally bought the 360J to carry in my pocket but I found it not fun to shoot nor could I shoot it as well. I traded the 360 for a 1911 and will continue to carry my 60 in pocket. The 60 and the 360 are the same size. I carry them in a Mika round cut.

[GAP]

So, I just blasted through a bunch of 148gr wadcutters, 158gr Speer lawman and 130gr +p Ranger Bonded.

Without question the 130gr +p were the most accurate and shot POA/POI with my 642 from 5, 10 and 20 yards.

[xcop]

So, I just blasted through a bunch of 148gr wadcutters, 158gr Speer lawman and 130gr +p Ranger Bonded.

Without question the 130gr +p were the most accurate and shot POA/POI with my 642 from 5, 10 and 20 yards.


Are you using 6 o'clock hold or dead on?

[GAP]

Are you using 6 o'clock hold or dead on?

I hold right on since I "drive the dot" with semi autos.

[xcop]

I hold right on since I "drive the dot" with semi autos.

You shoot like I do. It is your aim point I suspect that is why lighter bullets hit to POA. Others shooting your revolver might very well think those rounds hit low. I find shooting that way my snubs Colt,Smith and Ruger lighter hit to the sights but others shooting my revolvers hit better with heavier.

[GAP]

You shoot like I do. It is your aim point I suspect that is why lighter bullets hit to POA. Others shooting your revolver might very well think those rounds hit low. I find shooting that way my snubs Colt,Smith and Ruger lighter hit to the sights but others shooting my revolvers hit better with heavier.

I hear you, I feel like the added velocity also plays a role, but that's only theory. Coupled with the heavy trigger, it does beat your hand up a bit more than a wadcutter, but I can't sleep if my carry ammo doesn't hit where I aim. :)