enhancing the results from dry firing?

[Luger]

At the moment I don`t have much time left, to go to the shooting range. And I`m afraid this will not change much within the next months. I do my best, to compensate this a little by doing a lot of dry firing. I allways liked dry firing as a easy and cheap way to pratice safe gun handling, trigger control and clearing of malfunctions. And I`ve been satisfied with my results in the past years. But I allways combined it with frequent life fire practice at the shooting range.

When I went to the shooting range last time, I found out that I was still quite accurate (by my standards, which I`m afraid are not too high) at 25 meters. But when I tried to do some IPSC, I really sucked. I was clearly slower and less accurate, than in past times.

Is there any possibility, to address this in my dry fire sessions? At the moment I do every movement very slow and careful, to force myself to handle my gun concisely. Is it a good idea to move faster? Maybe even use a timer? Or will this ruin my handling skills and cause even more trouble? Should I combine fast and slow dry firing sessions? Or should I just stay with what I`m doing?

I`m fully aware, that my shooting skills will decrease furthermore, untill I start to pratice life fire shooting frequently again. But I hope, that I can slow the decrease down a little bit.

[BCL]

Yes, spend at least half of your time dry firing at the speed you want in live fire. The biggest thing you need to worry about is being honest with yourself in dry fire. Use the same grip pressure as in live fire and don't screw yourself by not being honest with your hits.

Ideally, all of your gun handling speed gains would be made in dry fire anyways, as it doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

Using a timer for par times will be key to gaining gun handling speed in dry fire. I'd recommend reading Ben Stoeger's dry firing books, particularly the red one, as it will give you good drills and par times to shoot for.

The only thing you can't really work on in dry fire is recoil control and sight tracking.

[BigT]

Get Ben Stoeger or Steve Andersons dry fire books. Work the par times hard while being honest with yourself about your shot calling. You will see improvements and if you keep it it up they will be massive.

[Luke]

Has your accuracy at 25 yards not gone down hill because that's what you practice in dry fire?
The only live fire I get is matches, but I dry fire every day. I have a journal here if you'd like to see what info for dry fire fo IPSC type skills. (I'd start at the end and work back, just now figuring out what to do lol). I believe you can stay fresh with dry fire and not much live fire. The trick is you have to dry fire what you want to get better at. Dry firing slow fire groups won't help you blaze a field course.

[JohnO]

Excellent Dry Fire info.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfARgCqWCvQ

[GNiner]

Very interesting video. Dryfire to Live fire ratio of 100 to 1. Can't say that I've ever heard of the "Holding drill" though. Holding your position perfectly for up to a minute and a half without moving sounds like it would be hard even without a gun in your hand. Is this done to enhance grip strength in lieu of a "captains of crush" workout?

[JohnO]

Very interesting video. Dryfire to Live fire ratio of 100 to 1. Can't say that I've ever heard of the "Holding drill" though. Holding your position perfectly for up to a minute and a half without moving sounds like it would be hard even without a gun in your hand. Is this done to enhance grip strength in lieu of a "captains of crush" workout?

I can speak only from my own perspective. I have Captains of Crush grippers as well as some other grip strength devices. I also am a bit of a gym rat and spend a good bit of time throwing free weights around which means I'm gripping there too.

I find that the only thing that approximates gripping a pistol is 'gripping a pistol'! Everything else builds basic strength and conditioning. Nothing accurately duplicates having your pistol in your strong hand and your support hand wrapped around that, both hands gripping correctly. Doing correct repetitions of holding drills puts everything together, all the fundamentals sight alignment, sight picture, stance, grip and trigger control for the actual trigger press. Then the holding portion exaggerates and extends follow through and builds strength and control like no other exercise can.

[Wheeler]

If you are on facebook, go to the 1000 Days Of Dryfire group.

[Luger]

Thank you all for the advice. I'll try it within the next weeks and report my results after my next trip to the range.

[robdog]

Hello I'm very much interested in this topic. I do not see a 100 Days of Dryfire group on Facebook? Maybe it's under a different name?

[Al T.]

One, zero, zero, zero, if that helps.

Luger, try going to a lot of weak hand dry firing. That helped me bunches.

[Luger]

I do frequently, in dry and life fire. It`s about 40% with both hands, 40% strong hand only with the support hand holding my flashlight and 20% support hand only.

[spinmove_]

Hello I'm very much interested in this topic. I do not see a 100 Days of Dryfire group on Facebook? Maybe it's under a different name?

You're missing a 0. It's 1,000 Days of dry fire. I just looked it up yesterday and found it, requested to join, and they accepted me.

[ubervic]

Excellent Dry Fire info.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfARgCqWCvQ

I like this.
I've been holding after the hammer-drop for longer periods during both live-fire and dry work, and I've seen good results. But this takes it to a whole new level.
Will follow this philosophy to test.

[Matt C.]

Very interesting video. Dryfire to Live fire ratio of 100 to 1. Can't say that I've ever heard of the "Holding drill" though. Holding your position perfectly for up to a minute and a half without moving sounds like it would be hard even without a gun in your hand. Is this done to enhance grip strength in lieu of a "captains of crush" workout?
I worked on a (dry fire) holding drill that definately helped my offhand scores in Service Rifle. Maybe the same concept.

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[Mr Pink]

I've been teaching for years and advocating dry fire for years. There are tons of people out there trying to find new and interesting ways to dry fire. There are no short cuts or ways to make dry fire more interesting. All of the pros do it the same boring way and that should be an indicator.

Years later I found Steve Anderson's, Book: Refinement and Repetition. I half way followed his routine and went from B Class to Master Class in Production in less than a year. During that year, I actually shot less than I had in the past, but had the most improvement. There are more than a few people that are Grand Masters because of his book. His book is currently sold out but should be available in the near future. http://www.andersonshooting.com/products/refinement-and-repetition/

[Sadmin]

10 reps, 1 min crush grip; my forearms are on fire. Think I'll start at 30 sec., 6th rep and FS was pretty shaky.

I like it though, should really help with my 50y shots and extended holds.

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[John Hearne]

I've been teaching for years and advocating dry fire for years. There are tons of people out there trying to find new and interesting ways to dry fire. There are no short cuts or ways to make dry fire more interesting. All of the pros do it the same boring way and that should be an indicator.


Maybe a bit of this: http://www.wisdomination.com/screw-motivation-what-you-need-is-discipline/

Followed by this: http://www.wisdomination.com/practical-discipline/

Also, there are bunch of systems out there designed to make dry practice more interesting, especially in the realm of laser trainers. The problem is that I can't find anyone who shoots well who actually uses them. There are all kinds of non-shooting internet gun gurus who extol them but I don't see any nationally ranked shooters who do.

[Mr Pink]

Maybe a bit of this: http://www.wisdomination.com/screw-motivation-what-you-need-is-discipline/

Followed by this: http://www.wisdomination.com/practical-discipline/

Also, there are bunch of systems out there designed to make dry practice more interesting, especially in the realm of laser trainers. The problem is that I can't find anyone who shoots well who actually uses them. There are all kinds of non-shooting internet gun gurus who extol them but I don't see any nationally ranked shooters who do.
WOW! Those were great links and I'm going to save those articles. Thanks

[Lex Luthier]

Maybe a bit of this: http://www.wisdomination.com/screw-motivation-what-you-need-is-discipline/

Followed by this: http://www.wisdomination.com/practical-discipline/

Also, there are bunch of systems out there designed to make dry practice more interesting, especially in the realm of laser trainers. The problem is that I can't find anyone who shoots well who actually uses them. There are all kinds of non-shooting internet gun gurus who extol them but I don't see any nationally ranked shooters who do.

I am now subscribing to this thread. The links and suggestions look very useful.

[JCS]

Maybe a bit of this: http://www.wisdomination.com/screw-motivation-what-you-need-is-discipline/

Followed by this: http://www.wisdomination.com/practical-discipline/

Also, there are bunch of systems out there designed to make dry practice more interesting, especially in the realm of laser trainers. The problem is that I can't find anyone who shoots well who actually uses them. There are all kinds of non-shooting internet gun gurus who extol them but I don't see any nationally ranked shooters who do.

Mike seeklander is a big promoter of sirt guns. He's also big into combatives and uses it for that as well.


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[scw2]

I saw marked improvement in my dry fire results when I learned to dry fire while being able to not cheat due to lack of recoil, meaning full pressure grip, decent stance, and being acutely aware of whether my sight alignment was good enough.

I'd also like to echo what John Hearne mentioned about dedication. I've tried to get reps in on my pistol even if it's just a few trigger presses and a couple draws. Also, if you can't handle the pistol, there are things you can still do such as strength and grip work, stretching to prevent overuse injuries, vision, movement, reloads, visualization. Some of that may be more competition focused, but other aspects of that apply whether you're on the gaming or tactical side of things.

[AlwaysLearning]

when I learned to dry fire while being able to not cheat due to lack of recoil, meaning full pressure grip, decent stance, and being acutely aware of whether my sight alignment was good enough.


Thanks for this. I actually stropped dry firing because I got worse, and now that I read your post, I realize that I was cheating the grip, and that's why I got worse.

[Luger]

Ok, after following your advice for about three weeks now I went to the range yesterday. When I shot against the timer on short distances (around 7meters) I was noticeably faster, while I shot more accurate than last time. And at 25 meters my accuracy did not suffer. So thank you all verry much! :)

Of course there is still something to work on. I waste to much time after the "beep", but I guess this will get better by doing more training with a timer.
Another problem are quick follow up shots. I can`t train this in dryfiring, so my body allways wants to relax and reholster the gun after the first shot. Overcoming this needs concentration and slows me down. Do you have any suggestions on this problem?

[BCL]

For the wasting time after the beep, start moving at the start of the beep, not after the beep has stopped. Might seem like not a big deal, but it can knock some serious time off of whatever you are trying to do.

For the quick follow-up shots, depending on what gun you shoot, try re-pressing the trigger several times using timed drills you would use in live fire. If you shoot a Glock, then something like a rubber band in the ejection port will allow the trigger to move back and forth (with significantly less weight than the actual trigger). If you shoot a DA/SA gun, then just let the trigger out part way and re-press the trigger to get used to multiple shots.

In the end, the best way to train recoil control is live fire and there is nothing you can really do for it in dry fire, except to grip the gun really hard.

[JohnO]

Of course there is still something to work on. I waste to much time after the "beep", but I guess this will get better by doing more training with a timer.
Another problem are quick follow up shots. I can`t train this in dryfiring, so my body allways wants to relax and reholster the gun after the first shot. Overcoming this needs concentration and slows me down. Do you have any suggestions on this problem?

When you say you are wasting too much time after the beep where and how are you loosing that time? Are you presenting from a holster or a ready position. Both of those starting points can and should be used in dry fire practice. Focus on the exact spot on the target you want to hit and bring the gun to your eye. Don't present the gun and then bring your eye to the gun.

After spending some time doing dry presentations do it with your eyes closed. Start by focusing on the exact spot you want to hit. As you begin your presentation close your eyes and bring the gun to the point. Now open your eyes and evaluate your point of aim. Work on refining your presentation such that muscle memory brings the gun to as close to perfect a spot as possible. Your ultimate goal is perfect sight alignment on your intended target where all you need to do is verify the sights and press the trigger.

Also you should explore what is a "good enough" sight picture. You could be wasting time trying to improve a good enough sight picture for the shot. This mainly comes in to play at distances from 7 meters and closer. Shoot a series of 4 shots with your front sight purposely misaligned. 1. front sight to the left extreme in the rear notch. 2. front sight to the right extreme in the rear notch. 3. front sight high in the rear notch. 4. front sight low in the rear notch. Try and do this slowly and carefully with clean trigger presses. You don't want to skew the data with a trigger snatch. By seeing how far off your sights can be and still deliver an acceptable shot for a particular target and distance is very valuable information. This understanding can speed up the "delivery process".

[Luger]

For the wasting time after the beep, start moving at the start of the beep, not after the beep has stopped. Might seem like not a big deal, but it can knock some serious time off of whatever you are trying to do.

This sounds like a pretty good idea. I`ll give it a try.


For the quick follow-up shots, depending on what gun you shoot, try re-pressing the trigger several times using timed drills you would use in live fire. If you shoot a Glock, then something like a rubber band in the ejection port will allow the trigger to move back and forth (with significantly less weight than the actual trigger).

Can`t this damage the trigger?


Also you should explore what is a "good enough" sight picture. You could be wasting time trying to improve a good enough sight picture for the shot. This mainly comes in to play at distances from 7 meters and closer. Shoot a series of 4 shots with your front sight purposely misaligned. 1. front sight to the left extreme in the rear notch. 2. front sight to the right extreme in the rear notch. 3. front sight high in the rear notch. 4. front sight low in the rear notch. Try and do this slowly and carefully with clean trigger presses. You don't want to skew the data with a trigger snatch. By seeing how far off your sights can be and still deliver an acceptable shot for a particular target and distance is very valuable information. This understanding can speed up the "delivery process".

Actually this might be a big part of the problem. I did focus on "long" (about 9 meters) distances and small targets (circle of about 8cm) in dry firing. While this was ok for accurate firing at the 25m range, it might not be for fast shots at short distances. I`ll add a bigger target to my fast dry firing sessions and I`ll give the shooting with misaligned sights a try at my next trip to the range.

Thank both of you, for the advice. I`ll report the results in a few weeks. ;)

[BCL]

Can`t this damage the trigger?

Not on any gun that I'm aware of (of modern design). On a DA/SA gun you will add wear to the trigger return spring, which will cause more frequent replacement than if you just shot it live fire. The rubber band trick on the Glock shouldn't cause any damage whatsoever. Even with more frequent TRS changes, I think the benefits far outweigh the downside.

[GJM]

I'd also like to echo what John Hearne mentioned about dedication. I've tried to get reps in on my pistol even if it's just a few trigger presses and a couple draws.

A concern I have about just a few draws and presses, using the primary pistol, is safety. It is easy to have a full procedure (separate room, backstop, no ammo in room, etc.) when you are doing a formal dry fire session, and harder when the practice is more impromptu.

[ssb]

A concern I have about just a few draws and presses, using the primary pistol, is safety. It is easy to have a full procedure (separate room, backstop, no ammo in room, etc.) when you are doing a formal dry fire session, and harder when the practice is more impromptu.

That's part of the reason for having a spare as a practice gun, at least for me. My carry gun stays loaded pretty much all the time and can be left elsewhere.

[Luger]

Not on any gun that I'm aware of (of modern design). On a DA/SA gun you will add wear to the trigger return spring, which will cause more frequent replacement than if you just shot it live fire. The rubber band trick on the Glock shouldn't cause any damage whatsoever. Even with more frequent TRS changes, I think the benefits far outweigh the downside.

Ok. I was just a little bit concerned, since my Glock manual stated that the trigger should only be brought in forward position by racking the slide.

[JCS]

While it's probably obvious to most people here, when doing the above it's important that you keep the front sight centered on your target/desired POI. You are moving the rear sight out of alignment, not the front. I've seen enough people screw up this exercise in Todd's classes, that I thought it was worth reinforcing this point. :)

Why is it that way?

[Mr_White]

Why is it that way?

There must be some kind of mathematically-based explanation, but basically, the front sight is closer to the target, so if it is kept in alignment with the target spot, varying the rear sight causes a certain degree of misalignment and resulting loss of accuracy. If the rear sight is kept on the target spot and the front sight is varied, the degree of misalignment is quite a bit more.

Sight dimensions do play into this also - wider rear notch with front sight pushed off to the side will allow more misalignment than a narrower rear notch.

I just got through doing this exact drill in class a little over a week ago (using the alignment scheme Tom described.) We did it at 5, 10, and 15 yards. For me, at 5 yards I had smaller than a palmspread on the target, and at 15 yards I had approximately a handspread, maybe a tad less.

[GRV]

On the contrary, at times I've felt that demoes of this with the front sight centered on the target was a bit of a parlour trick.

In general, I've found that when my sights are misaligned, it is the front sight that tends to get misaligned, not the rear sight. Possible reasons include the rear sight being closer to the point of articulation (wrists), and the fact that the rear sight is larger and thus is more visually dominant in centering the sights on the target, whereas the smaller front sight has a tendency to play a "fine tuning" role.

I think it's worth doing it both ways, and every other way one can imagine. Get as much first hand data how one's own gun, hands, sights, eyes, etc. behave and correlate to hits on paper. Doing it only a specific way to ensure getting an expected outcome is a waste of time and just a dishonest pledge to some sort of dogmatic ritual. But yea, it's important to know the subtleties of what exactly it is that you're trying.

FWIW, one time I got around to trying the variation where you keep the target centered in the rear notch and maximally misalign the front sight. I have some pics in my journal somewhere. For me and the guns/sights I tried, I was surprised to find the shots still closer together than I had expected at 7 yards. Also, I found it was actually a bit challenging to intentionally set the sights up this way, suggesting that my natural misalignment tendencies are probably somewhere between the two extremes. Unsurprisingly, it taught me the same lesson it is intended to teach: that trigger control reigns supreme, first and foremost, and that the next most important thing is the relationship between the front sight and the target.

[Mr_White]

On the contrary, at times I've felt that demoes of this with the front sight centered on the target was a bit of a parlour trick.

In general, I've found that when my sights are misaligned, it is the front sight that tends to get misaligned, not the rear sight. Possible reasons include the rear sight being closer to the point of articulation (wrists), and the fact that the rear sight is larger and thus is more visually dominant in centering the sights on the target, whereas the smaller front sight has a tendency to play a "fine tuning" role.

I think it's worth doing it both ways, and every other way one can imagine. Get as much first hand data how one's own gun, hands, sights, eyes, etc. behave and correlate to hits on paper. Doing it only a specific way to ensure getting an expected outcome is a waste of time and just a dishonest pledge to some sort of dogmatic ritual. But yea, it's important to know the subtleties of what exactly it is that you're trying.

FWIW, one time I got around to trying the variation where you keep the target centered in the rear notch and maximally misalign the front sight. I have some pics in my journal somewhere. For me and the guns/sights I tried, I was surprised to find the shots still closer together than I had expected at 7 yards. Also, I found it was actually a bit challenging to intentionally set the sights up this way, suggesting that my natural misalignment tendencies are probably somewhere between the two extremes. Unsurprisingly, it taught me the same lesson it is intended to teach: that trigger control reigns supreme, first and foremost, and that the next most important thing is the relationship between the front sight and the target.

Ultimately, the semi/subconscious SWYNTS and FWYNTF (feel what you need to feel on the trigger) can only be developed through extensive live fire practice, shooting many different targets at different distances and in different physical circumstances. I've found the drill we are talking about to be useful from the standpoint of creating a foundational intellectual understanding of a basic and important condition of aiming - front sight somewhere, anywhere, within the rear notch. Knowing how much accuracy we can get out of THAT particular level of sight picture is a good stepping stone along the way to a finer, less conscious, and more useful-at-speed understanding.

[GRV]

Ultimately, the semi/subconscious SWYNTS and FWYNTF (feel what you need to feel on the trigger) can only be developed through extensive live fire practice, shooting many different targets at different distances and in different physical circumstances. I've found the drill we are talking about to be useful from the standpoint of creating a foundational intellectual understanding of a basic and important condition of aiming - front sight somewhere, anywhere, within the rear notch. Knowing how much accuracy we can get out of THAT particular level of sight picture is a good stepping stone along the way to a finer, less conscious, and more useful-at-speed understanding.

Agreed.

What I was trying to say is that I think the variation of the demo where you keep the front sight perfectly aligned with the target but only shift the rear sight around isn't really an honest representation of the sort of misalignment that will occur when one willingly accepts a sight picture with the "front sight somewhere, anywhere, within the rear notch", at least not for me.

As you've noted, however, that variation is the most forgiving when it comes to how good or bad the hits on paper end up, and that's why I have sometimes felt a certain "parlor trick" quality to it. Not to say it's bad, and I probably came off hostile, which I didn't intend.

I think a good lesson to learn from it is that, regardless of how one tends to use or misalign the sights, one should really pay attention to the relationship between the front sight, specifically, and the target. I think one of my problems is that I have a tendency to pay more attention to some sort of general relationship between the target and the total sight picture, and then the relationship between the front and rear sight separately. That's just what comes most naturally.