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View Full Version : Good .380 ACP JHP for the wife?



MadMax17
11-13-2011, 08:54 PM
Hey all,

Now before everybody jumps all over for me for asking about .380 ACP, hear me out. It's for the wife, she carries a Ruger 9mm in her purse, but couldn't really carry it on her body due to dress code limitations. So she wanted to carry something on her, and still carry the 9mm in the purse. 38 Special revolvers were a little big for pocket carry for her, but she found a Kel Tec 3AT, and loves it for pocket carry. She wants to have that on her ALL THE TIME, and the 9mm will still be in the purse when she can have her purse.

Unfortunately couldn't find anything about .380 ACP carry ammo on the DocGKR article. Right now I'm leaning towards Speer Gold Dots or Cor-Bon DPX (the copper ones).

If anybody can suggest anything, or decent studies or whatever, I'd appreciate it!

Thanks,
Max

JodyH
11-13-2011, 09:27 PM
They all suck, but the Gold Dot seems to suck less than the others.
I haven't seen any data on the DPX but it should be good based on its performance in other calibers.
I keep my pocket bug LCP loaded with Gold Dots.

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phidelta308
11-14-2011, 02:37 AM
From the reading I've done on .380 defensive loads, a major issue of debate is whether or not the .380 JHP has enough velocity to reliably expand and/or penetrate if it does expand. Those who are worried about that advocate ball or flat nose jacketed ammo.

I have a couple of mags of 102 gr Golden Sabers. I figure if it doesn't expand, it's got more mass than the usual .380 round and should hopefully penetrate more deeply. Also, if the first round out of my Beretta 84 doesn't do the job, the other 13 in the magazine should. I also have a couple of magazines loaded with WWB 95gr jacketed ammo. They are flat nosed, and honestly, I wouldn't want to be shot by one of them let alone a magazine worth.

Here's a link (http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page638.htm) to brassfetcher.com's .380 page. Their tests were done with a P3AT.

VolGrad
11-14-2011, 08:48 AM
I've fired a decent number of rounds of premium JHP through a LCP and P238 to make sure they fed reliably.

I tried Hornady Critical Defense, Speer Gold Dot, Remington Golden Sabers, and a few other randoms. Keep in mind I was only testing reliability and not expansion. I chose the brands I tested based on reputation (online anyway) for good expansion.

While all fed 100% in both pocket guns, frankly, I didn't like the conical shape of the Hornady. I gave my remaining boxes to my dad for his LCP.

I ended choosing the Golden Sabers as my carry ammo for my .380acp pocket gun, with Speer Gold Dots as my second choice. Both the Golden Sabers and Speer fed 100% but I felt I was more accurate with the Golden Sabers. The Speers are probably easier to find in stores or online though.

DannyZRC
11-14-2011, 10:08 AM
I know a lot of people recommend FMJ for .380

I may be stepping in it, but if memory serves DocGKR is among them.

Mitchell, Esq.
11-14-2011, 10:19 AM
See here for .380 testing: http://www.brassfetcher.com/380ACP%20ammunition%20performance%20in%20ballistic %20gelatin.pdf

VolGrad
11-14-2011, 10:46 AM
See here for .380 testing: http://www.brassfetcher.com/380ACP%20ammunition%20performance%20in%20ballistic %20gelatin.pdf

Good info. Thanks for the link.

However, I find I typically go stupid when I attempt to interpret results of ballistic testing.

I mean really, isn't 10" penetraction with a 2" hole more than adequate vs. a 20" hole that is only have as wide and prob pretty "clean" (vs ragged from an expanding JHP)?

I'd love to see one of those tests where someone dresses up an animal carcass with a couple of layers of t-shirt & denim to see what kind of damage some of these rounds will do.

DannyZRC
11-14-2011, 10:53 AM
#01, Placement
#02, Penetration
#37, Everything else.

Mitchell, Esq.
11-14-2011, 11:07 AM
Good info. Thanks for the link.

However, I find I typically go stupid when I attempt to interpret results of ballistic testing.

I mean really, isn't 10" penetraction with a 2" hole more than adequate vs. a 20" hole that is only have as wide and prob pretty "clean" (vs ragged from an expanding JHP)?

I'd love to see one of those tests where someone dresses up an animal carcass with a couple of layers of t-shirt & denim to see what kind of damage some of these rounds will do.

That's the goal of gel tests, to have a reliable, repeatable, objective test substance instead of subjectivel diverse test media.

The FBI wanted the rest replicatable, so Hornady can conduct their own tests, Federal can do theirs, and Bumfuck, MT's sheriff's department with more time and money than they know what to do with (Hint...federal grant...) can test as the please and get results they can compare.

It's not supposed to be a test of terminal effectiveness, it's supposed to be a test in which I can compare Black Hills 124 grain 9mm loaded with XTP to Gold Dot 115 Grain standard velocity and see how they stack up against each other.

Doing animal carcases means you'd have to have a control animal, with such and such weight, health, and angle of inpact and onward...if you didn't, you would have some people testing on sheep, others on swine, or road kill...ranging from a Northeastern USA White-Tail deer to larger variants in different areas of the country.

As to depth, the idea is that you have to reach the major blood bearing structures in the body after passing throught outstretched limbs and other natural armor. To do that, you need 12 inches.

See: http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number3/article432.htm at bottom of the page with the pork ribs over the 2nd gel block.

TGS
11-14-2011, 11:13 AM
Surprisingly, the Federal Hydra-Shok is one of the best performing JHP's for a .380.

In bare gelatin, it will reliably get 12" penetration with some expansion. Like the rest of its family, it will plug up and fail to expand when fired through heavy clothing and whatnot. That's not really a problem to have with 380 though, when a lot of people carry FMJ to bebin with :). That's what I put in my pocket gun during the summer. During the winter, I've got flat-nose FMJ since the Hydra-Shok would plug up anyway in the winter. A plus of the hydra-shok in .380 is that it's pretty soft in the recoil department, so follow up shots should be faster.

Gold Dot, Ranger-T, DPX, ect all expand way to much and have very shallow penetration. If you take the Barnes SCHP and drive it fast, it will perform great. But, it's got to be fast....I think brassfetcher's work found a Barnes SCHP needed to be moving 1200fps to get 12", and he purported a pretty linear loss of penetration with velocity. If you're interested in this route, check out Buffalo Bore.

JodyH
11-14-2011, 11:55 AM
#01, Placement
#02, Penetration
#37, Everything else.

#1is reliability in your gun.

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phidelta308
11-14-2011, 04:08 PM
#1is reliability in your gun.

Be aware that the 102gr Golden Sabers are a little longer than most other .380 ammo. They work fine in my Beretta, but obviously, test them in whatever gun you use.

VolGrad
11-14-2011, 05:36 PM
Be aware that the 102gr Golden Sabers are a little longer than most other .380 ammo. They work fine in my Beretta, but obviously, test them in whatever gun you use.

I have ran them through multiple LCPs and one SIG P238 without issue.

jslaker
11-14-2011, 05:58 PM
I wouldn't advocate using JHPs in anything below 9mm energy levels (i.e., around 300ft-lbs).

Everything I have seen seems to indicate that rounds in the .380 ACP range -- generally under 200 ft-lbs -- lack sufficient energy to provide both penetration and expansion reliably. If they expand, they generally fail to penetrate. The aforementioned hydrashoks do come closest, but just barely.

I'd far rather have a round that I know will penetrate sufficiently as a rule, and as such would lean heavily towards FMjs in such a gun.

JodyH
11-14-2011, 06:28 PM
Considering the crappy sights and overall poor "shootability" of most pocket .380's, they are screw it into the bad guys ear and pull the trigger pistols.
So just about any ammo that feeds reliably will work.
What I have found is the "premium" JHP loads tend to have better quality control then the FMJ "target" loads.
I would not get wrapped around the axle with jello results when it comes to mouse calibers, they all suck.

jslaker
11-14-2011, 06:37 PM
Considering the crappy sights and overall poor "shootability" of most pocket .380's, they are screw it into the bad guys ear and pull the trigger pistols.
So just about any ammo that feeds reliably will work.
What I have found is the "premium" JHP loads tend to have better quality control then the FMJ "target" loads.
I would not get wrapped around the axle with jello results when it comes to mouse calibers, they all suck.

Again, from what I've seen, many premium .380 JHP loads struggle to make 9" of penetration if they expand (that's what she said), while even target FMJ loads will easily break 16".

The whole FBI rethink of the early 90s was because their 9mm Silvertips failed to provide adequate penetration with while expanding, and those carried far more energy than even the hottest .380 loadings.

JodyH
11-14-2011, 07:43 PM
The whole FBI "rethink" was due to taking a snubbie to a rifle fight.

I'm just not that worried about a few extra inches of penetration out of a 2" barreled .380 with no sights.
10.5" penetration, .54" expansion through 4-layer denim works just fine when you screw the barrel into their nostril and press the trigger repeatedly.
It's a POS mouse gun...

TGS
11-14-2011, 07:55 PM
works just fine when you screw the barrel into their nostril and press the trigger repeatedly.

I like your style, bro. Apparently you "get" that the key word in "gunfight" is "fight."

jslaker
11-14-2011, 09:31 PM
The whole FBI "rethink" was due to taking a snubbie to a rifle fight.

For values of snubbies equal to S&W duty weapons having rounds stop shy of the perp's aorta.

Even for the distances involved in the Miami shootout, a 9mm Silvertip would have carried far more energy that the hottest of .380 loads at PBR.

MadMax17
11-14-2011, 10:49 PM
What does anyone think about the Buffalo Bore-Barnes .380 +P? According to their website, they say a Kel Tec P3AT would get around 1130 fps. Not sure what this would mean in terms of penetration, but I would think it would be more than 993 fps offered in the Cor-Bon DPX...?

TGS
11-15-2011, 12:06 AM
What does anyone think about the Buffalo Bore-Barnes .380 +P? According to their website, they say a Kel Tec P3AT would get around 1130 fps. Not sure what this would mean in terms of penetration, but I would think it would be more than 993 fps offered in the Cor-Bon DPX...?

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Cor-Bon%2080gr%20DPX%20performance%20summary.pdf

You're looking at about 11" of penetration. The Buffalo Bore SCHP "+p" load kicked noticeably more than any other load I've fired in my Kahr P380.

tmoore912
11-15-2011, 12:26 PM
Here is some more perspective on little guns and what bullets penetrate the best.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot26.htm

I use FMJ in my Kel-Tec .380 BUG/ pocket gun. For me it gives maximum reliability and maximum penetration.

41magfan
11-15-2011, 02:02 PM
With no intention of fanning the flames or starting an other endless discussion about terminal ballistics, I have an opinion satisfactory to myself that meaningful expansion - and its correlation to meaningful tissue damage - in the real world - against flesh & bone targets - is pretty unpredictable if impact velocities are much below 1,000 fps. I base that personal opinion on what I've actually observed on-scene and at autopsy.

Regarding carry ammo for the .380, this may be helpful if you're undecided. Here are some actual chrono results from two popular .380 pocket pistols (average velocity):

Kahr P380
Corbon 80 gr DPX - 965 fps
Winchester "White Box" 95 gr Flat Point FMJ - 797 fps
Remington 88 gr JHP - 881 fps

Ruger LCP
Corbon 80 gr DPX - 940 fps
Winchester WB 95 gr Flat Point FMJ - 811 fps
Remington 88 gr JHP - 866 fps

JodyH
11-15-2011, 04:12 PM
If a jhp doesn't expand then it usually acts like fmj and penetrates a little deeper.

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Chuck Haggard
05-16-2013, 12:11 PM
Someone activate internet spam/scam protocol #128 and track down kikipo, have the IRT (Intardnets Response Team) shoot him/her/it in the face.

kiki, the black helicopters are in-bound, you may want to draft a will while you are waiting. Just sayin.





Anyyyyywaaaaaay, in testing I have noted that the Gold Dot gets about 11" in bare gel, a bit more in the heavy clothing/four layer denim testing. Hornady XTP is about the same, I assume the Critical Defense is on the same level. Personally, I am good with this level of penetration from a pocket gun.

I have noted that the premium JHPs do seem to have better QC than the target loads, however, comma, I note that a very large and famous PD in SoCal has recently changed their authorized .380 BUG gun duty ammo from JHPs to Speer Lawman FMJ.

I'd carry GDs or the Hornady loading. DPX and all of the other JHPs tend to be in the 6-8" penetration range in gelatin. If I didn't have my preferred ammo I'd carry whatever ball ammo I could get that had proven reliable.
I'm happier with the potential of the JHPs in a face shooting scenario because I believe that the hollow point is more likely to dig into bone than a FMJ. I have lost track of how many street shootings I have arrived on to find a vic shot in the face/head and they are walking around holding a towel to the wound complaining about having been shot. That kind of colors my thoughts on the matter.

As an aside, I think the "+P" .380 loadings are a reliability/durability problem for some of the wee little guns. Would be easy to induce excessive slide velocity, and to beat up the guns in the long run.

Mr_White
05-16-2013, 01:55 PM
Someone activate internet spam/scam protocol #128 and track down kikipo, have the IRT (Intardnets Response Team) shoot him/her/it in the face.

kiki, the black helicopters are in-bound, you may want to draft a will while you are waiting. Just sayin.

???

What is this all about and how can I get on the IRT? Though I'm concerned about OPSEC on this open source of comm.

Chuck Haggard
05-16-2013, 02:06 PM
???

What is this all about and how can I get on the IRT? Though I'm concerned about OPSEC on this open source of comm.

You don't contact the IRT, it finds you.

Mr_White
05-16-2013, 02:07 PM
You don't contact the IRT, it finds you.

Sounds like I better hope they don't find me...

Tamara
05-16-2013, 02:55 PM
...screw the barrel into their nostril and press the trigger repeatedly.

I can't imagine that muzzle contact shots do anything good for the already iffy reliability of the plastic mouseguns... :eek:

Chuck Haggard
05-16-2013, 04:19 PM
I can't imagine that muzzle contact shots do anything good for the already iffy reliability of the plastic mouseguns... :eek:

An advantage to the blow-back guns when you think about it.

Tamara
05-17-2013, 07:22 AM
An advantage to the blow-back guns when you think about it.

True 'dat.