The End of Public Agency Gun Culture?

[GardoneVT]

My specific experience is recounted in the latest post on my blog. But i've had enough encounters with anti-gun people and policies in the military to make me suspect the "old school" image of the uniformed servicemember /LE "Gun Nut" in the vein of Col. Jeff Cooper ,Jim Cirillo and so forth is an endangered species.

My thinking is that with PC centric policy in governments both national and local, future promotion of gun ownership rests squarely in the civilian, non uniformed sector of society.

What say the P-F collective to that?

[Shoresy]

Most places I've been in the military are have senior leadership who would strongly prefer that servicemembers have as little contact with firearms as possible outside of work... the prevailing view is that private ownership and adherence to that whole wacky amendment to our Constitution are "tolerated", not encouraged.

[JDB]

Most places I've been in the military are have senior leadership who would strongly prefer that servicemembers have as little contact with firearms as possible outside of work... the prevailing view is that private ownership and adherence to that whole wacky amendment to our Constitution are "tolerated", not encouraged.

Thankfully that doesn't seem to be the case in the Infantry, at least in my experience.

[Drang]

Thankfully that doesn't seem to be the case in the Infantry, at least in my experience.

And yet you have the commanders of I, III, and XVIII Corps all trying to require all troops to file an inventory of personally owned weapons within (variously) 50-200 miles of the installation...

[Poconnor]

I always thought army officers attitude towards guns was a side effect of the zero defect policy. As in my soldiers will fuck up and fuck my career. I was in a training class and remember a major telling everyone to watch out for the E4 mafia because they will fuck you.

[Trav]

Can't speak for the cops, but I'll agree from a .mil viewpoint (at least from an Army & AF perspective). Ten years or so ago, the US Army in Alaska commander forbade any and all of his troops from carrying a firearm at any time unless they were out in the bush--AK's permitless carry laws be damned.

AF regs allow one to fly with his/her M9 in Condition 2. However, if you landed at an Army FOB and came off the flightline for any reason (go to Base Ops, the bathroom, chow hall, etc), you had to go to Condition 3. This led to a large amount of unnecessary coonfingering of one's pistol, IMO. I would have ignored it, but Army rules were that anyone can ask you to do a chamber check, and it was a Court Martial if you had a round chambered.

The vast majority of the military is focused on something other than "winning the current war", and outside of actual trigger pullers, the prevailing winds align with the "C_cks, not Glocks" crowd.

[blues]

My specific experience is recounted in the latest post on my blog. But i've had enough encounters with anti-gun people and policies in the military to make me suspect the "old school" image of the uniformed servicemember /LE "Gun Nut" in the vein of Col. Jeff Cooper ,Jim Cirillo and so forth is an endangered species.

My thinking is that with PC centric policy in governments both national and local, future promotion of gun ownership rests squarely in the civilian, non uniformed sector of society.

What say the P-F collective to that?

I can't argue with your conclusion based upon my own experience and encounters with a variety of agencies and departments throughout my career and now in my retirement. (Thankfully, they are not all like this however.)

Many outfits are not "gung-ho" nor supportive of their officers or agents carrying off-duty. This is exacerbated by internecine conflicts between agencies and departments and their personnel both active and retired.

If one looks at the number of agencies which will not only not qualify their former sworn personnel for the purposes of carrying a concealed firearm under LEOSA but will not even bother providing certification that the individual was in fact a sworn LEO who retired honorably from their outfit, the handwriting is on the wall and the outlook is less than sanguine.

[okie john]

I always thought army officers attitude towards guns was a side effect of the zero defect policy. As in my soldiers will fuck up and fuck my career. I was in a training class and remember a major telling everyone to watch out for the E4 mafia because they will fuck you.

The E-4 Mafia does their share of stupid stuff and they will definitely even the score on someone who deserves it, no matter what their rank. They will also back up someone who needs their help. It depends more on the person in question than anything else.


Okie John

[Hambo]

My specific experience is recounted in the latest post on my blog. But i've had enough encounters with anti-gun people and policies in the military to make me suspect the "old school" image of the uniformed servicemember /LE "Gun Nut" in the vein of Col. Jeff Cooper ,Jim Cirillo and so forth is an endangered species.


I think that people look at what's going on around them and think it's unique to their time. Read specific history or personal accounts of other eras and there's nothing new. To wit, Cirillo was in the definite minority in NYPD in the 1960s. Most cops, then or now, look at their pistol the same way they look at their stick, cuffs, radio, etc. They are tools, and they're about as interested in them as a carpenter is in his hammer or nail gun when work is over.

[Drang]

And yet you have the commanders of I, III, and XVIII Corps all trying to require all troops to file an inventory of personally owned weapons within (variously) 50-200 miles of the installation...

In Tommy Franks' memoirs, at one point he and his wife are attending some function in (IIRC) Pakistan and they have to walk through metal detectors to enter. It doesn't go off, she asks him if he remembered his pistol, and he pats his hi and says "right here."

Later in Iraq he makes a point of emphasizing "'General Order Number One' is still in effect: No personal weapons."

I thought he was cool as my division commander in Korea, especially since he stared out as an enlisted MI geek, later though...

[Arbninftry]

Thankfully that doesn't seem to be the case in the Infantry, at least in my experience.

I am a former Infantry Officer, and can say at the Brigade and higher levels of brass, that is exactly the mentality. Having branch detailed into MI at the field grade level, all my time being in SOF organizations, the mentality was a little better but not much. This was from a career in the 82nd, 3rd ID, 5th SFG, and working for programs at DA level for ARCIC (the FCS Program) etc. It is driven by guys like Petraues (anti-gun) McChrystal (anti-gun) Casey, and many more who believe AR-15s should not be in the hands of civilians. Those are just a few that have stated such in interviews in the print and TV media.
Generals like Franks are the exception. Rumsfeld made sure of that. Rummy is why Frank's retired.

[txdpd]

My specific experience is recounted in the latest post on my blog. But i've had enough encounters with anti-gun people and policies in the military to make me suspect the "old school" image of the uniformed servicemember /LE "Gun Nut" in the vein of Col. Jeff Cooper ,Jim Cirillo and so forth is an endangered species.

My thinking is that with PC centric policy in governments both national and local, future promotion of gun ownership rests squarely in the civilian, non uniformed sector of society.

What say the P-F collective to that?

Yes and no. In the police world, I'd say the "gun culture" is doing better than ever thanks to Youtube, forums and blogging. The "professional shooter" is just as rare as it's ever been and it's hard to compete with the cool guy shoot fast internet gun experts. But that's nothing really unique to policing or shooting.

[LtDave]

Yes and no. In the police world, I'd say the "gun culture" is doing better than ever thanks to Youtube, forums and blogging. The "professional shooter" is just as rare as it's ever been and it's hard to compete with the cool guy shoot fast internet gun experts. But that's nothing really unique to policing or shooting.

Being a "gun guy" is definitely not a trait that LE agencies select for. I know that I was dumped from the hiring process at one agency early in my career for that reason. I attended 3 academies during my LE career and was the top shot in all three. That being said, I only classify as a "C" in USPSA. Until recently, I was a civilian volunteer with a state LE agency. They were kind enough to let me shoot with them during their qualifications. Over a multiyear period, I shot better, by a measurable amount, than the current cops. Most only carry a gun because they have to. The number of off duty cops who don't carry would probably astound most civilians who invest a lot of time and effort to get their CCW.

[Trooper224]

There is no "old school" image of the cop as a gun nut, because most never have been nor ever will be. While shooting proficiency was promoted and rewarded more in the old days than it is today, if anyone thinks we were all steely eyed pistoleros back in the day, then you need to quit toking that reefer. When I came on the job I was labeled as someone who needed to be watched, since I carried a gun off duty and that attitude wasn't specific to my agency. This was in spite of the fact that I live in a largely pro gun area of the country. If one reads the writings of Bill Jordan, Jim Cirillo, etc., you might get the impression that skill with a gun was far more common place, let me assure you, it wasn't. If anything, there's more of a movement in modern LE to promote off duty carry than there was back in the day. In most departments it's more of a grass roots internal effort than something that's coming from the upper echelon, but it's there. My own agency now emphasizes off duty carry during training, something that would have been unheard off twenty years ago. So Gardone, the blanket of pessimism you typically wrap everything in doesn't completely cover this issue.

[Robinson]

Does anyone know or wish to discuss the general attitude about civilian gun ownership within the SOF community? Those folks are some of the nation's best and brightest -- and while I understand each SOF trooper is an individual with personal opinions and biases, if anti-gun sentiment exists even there then that is a bit troubling.

I can see how SOF veterans would be pro 2nd Amendment and at the same time strongly anti-derp.

[JHC]

Does anyone know or wish to discuss the general attitude about civilian gun ownership within the SOF community? Those folks are some of the nation's best and brightest -- and while I understand each SOF trooper is an individual with personal opinions and biases, if anti-gun sentiment exists even there then that is a bit troubling.

I can see how SOF veterans would be pro 2nd Amendment and at the same time strongly anti-derp.

100% rapid PRO-2nd Amendment from my sampling (approx a dozen, all Army units).

[John Hearne]

I have this on my wall in my office:
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/ajp3jeh/Gun%20Stuff/cooper_excellence_quote_zpsuk5veiit.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/ajp3jeh/media/Gun%20Stuff/cooper_excellence_quote_zpsuk5veiit.jpg.html)

So you don't have to squint:
"The important thing is to keep the seekers after excellence free of the public sector. Neither the police or the military are proper places in which to seek individual excellence. Many cops and many soldiers are very fine marksmen, but they are that regardless of their civil status. The sad fact is that individual excellence is a matter of development by the individual and is not something that can be imparted in the mass. Ask any fighter pilot the next chance you get."

The best the public sector can do is create an environment in which excellence is recognized and encouraged. The LAPD Bonus Course is a good example of this. In my world, we went from pass/fail to scores on our qualifications. As soon as this happened, I added their firearms score to my employees' evaluations. Two of my weakest shooters miraculously improved, one shooting 29/30 on our last qual.

I believe that you can create an environment that is conducive to excellence but you can't require it under the current legal environment.

[TAZ]

Does anyone know or wish to discuss the general attitude about civilian gun ownership within the SOF community? Those folks are some of the nation's best and brightest -- and while I understand each SOF trooper is an individual with personal opinions and biases, if anti-gun sentiment exists even there then that is a bit troubling.

I can see how SOF veterans would be pro 2nd Amendment and at the same time strongly anti-derp.

The SOF trigger pullers are generally pro gun and pro constitution. Much like general line LEO. SOF higher ups are political creatures just like CLEO. Their opinions are different from the line guys and carries more weight when it comes time to support and implement policy. Welcome to life I guess.