Support Hand Grip: How Much Pressure, Ben Stoeger vs Albert League?

[randyflycaster]

This is my first post. I shoot left handed. Almost all my shots are going to the right of the bulls eye. I'm trying everything, with the same result. I suspect that I'm having trouble pressing the trigger straight back. However, I'm not sure how much grip pressure to use on my support hand. Ben Stoeger and almost everyone else say I should use a strong grip. Alfred League in his book The Perfect Pistol Shot argues that the support hand is simply that: it supports the weight of the gun. Shooters, therefore, should also use a light grip with their support hand, as a strong grip might result in torque. I find that using a light support-hand grip is less tiring, and it certainly isn't making my marksmanship any worse.

So my question is: How much grip pressure do you use with your support hand, and is it side-to-side pressure, or is it front to back?

Thanks,
Randy

[Luke]

If this happens in slow fire you have other issues besides grip.

Have you ever done ball and dummy with someone else loading the magazine?

Can you press the trigger without disturbing the sights in dry fire?

Has anyone else shot it to confirm its not the gun?



As to the pressure question. Support had is as tight as I can get it without shaking. Strong hand is basically the same thing.

[RJ]

This is my first post. I shoot left handed. Almost all my shots are going to the right of the bulls eye. I'm trying everything, with the same result. I suspect that I'm having trouble pressing the trigger straight back. However, I'm not sure how much grip pressure to use on my support hand. Ben Stoeger and almost everyone else say I should use a strong grip. Alfred League in his book The Perfect Pistol Shot argues that the support hand is simply that: it supports the weight of the gun. Shooters, therefore, should also use a light grip with their support hand, as a strong grip might result in torque. I find that using a light support-hand grip is less tiring, and it certainly isn't making my marksmanship any worse.

So my question is: How much grip pressure do you use with your support hand, and is it side-to-side pressure, or is it front to back?

Thanks,
Randy

Welcome Randy.

I started shooting in 2013, and am left handed. I also read Alfred's book in the early days. I've come to the conclusion he is 100% incorrect about grip.

Here is a picture of a typical group of mine from 2013.

10219

Quite a few rounds low and right. And as I recall this was at about three yards.

Now compare with a recent 25 yard group from a few weeks ago:

10220

Same pistol, just two years later. 9 out of 10 rounds are now bracketing the target, even at 75' away.

I post these only to give you a frame of reference for what follows.

Fwiw, here's what I do now:

- Grip the pistol, hard. So hard it's almost shaking, but backed off a little. My support hand is *almost* that hard, but not quite. Since my strong hand is gripping mostly front to back, my support hand is side to side, mostly. But very firm. Take my wedding ring off because it hurts firm.

- I dry practice almost every day. I find the "wall drill" to be best. Focus, watch the front sight, press straight back. If you aren't pretty tired after 50 dry presses, you probably aren't gripping hard enough.

- I had to experiment with backstrap size (both on my M&P and VP9). I spent a while at dry practice working out which combo resulted in minimim sight movement.

- I also fiddled around with how much finger I used on the trigger. Again, from the tip to the distal phalange; I had to figure out what resulted in minimum movement.

- Lastly, I used a few ball and dummy drill sessions (insert snap caps randomly). Removing the 'bang' allows you to really see any pre-ignition twitches.

Hope this helps. Good luck!

[RJ]

If this happens in slow fire you have other issues besides grip.

Have you ever done ball and dummy with someone else loading the magazine?

Can you press the trigger without disturbing the sights in dry fire?

Has anyone else shot it to confirm its not the gun?



As to the pressure question. Support had is as tight as I can get it without shaking. Strong hand is basically the same thing.

^^^ Yep.

[spinmove_]

Welcome to the forums, Randy. I'm right handed, but I personally just went through two weeks worth of dry practicing correctly to get myself shooting straight and I had a very similar issue (right handed guy shooting left, basically the exact same issue for a lefty). I started a thread and a TON of good people posted A LOT of really good information that helped me out. It's a bit of a read with links that go to other threads that are reads themselves. But if you go through and read all of that material, digest it, and apply it to your situation, I think you'll be pretty well off. The following is a link to my thread. Give it a shot. It's a bit daunting, but totally worth it.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?21906-Trigger-Finger-Motion-or-Pressing-the-trigger-straight-to-the-rear

[Clusterfrack]

Welcome to PF, Randy. Luke, Rich and spinmove have already given you some very good advice. I'll add that the WAY you grip hard with each hand matters a lot. With my dominant hand, I grip primarily front to back. The terminal phalanges of my fingers are not gripping the sides of the gun very hard. The concentration of dominant hand pressure is on the front of the grip and the backstrap. My support hand clamps side to side. This forms a box of force around the grip, and isolates trigger finger effects primarily in line with the bore.

You also need to work on calling your shots if you are going to keep developing your skills. This means being able to watch the sights as the gun fires and know where your bullet went without seeing the target. This is the best way to troubleshoot your technique. Otherwise it's a shot in the dark whether changing something helps or hurts.

[rdtompki]

Disclaimer: This is not expert opinion

Everything I do is out of the draw since almost all my shooting is steel challenge. Being a super senior my strong grip is a fraction of a younger shooter's, but then again I'm shooting a 9mm 1911. For me the way the support hand engages the grip is much more important than the absolute force I exert. Even with a 3 lb trigger if I'm late with my support hand out of the holster and achieve only a straight wrist I find my hits below my POA. If I engage the grip correctly with my support hand wrist cocked I'm hitting right around POA. I'll never switch to 22lr out of low ready, but I sometimes dream of getting the perfect grip every time out of the holster.

[randyflycaster]

Folks,
Thanks so much for all your help. Wow! There's a lot more to marksmanship than I thought.
I guess Mr. League feels that, if the finger press is executed perfectly a shooter wouldn't need much support-hand pressure.
However, in the real world, I suspect, there probably is almost never a perfect finger press - as there's almost never a perfect golf swing - and
therefore, support-hand pressure helps minimize the effects of a less than perfect finger press.
Does that make sense?
Randy

[Jay Cunningham]

Welcome to PF, Randy. Luke, Rich and spinmove have already given you some very good advice. I'll add that the WAY you grip hard with each hand matters a lot. With my dominant hand, I grip primarily front to back. The terminal phalanges of my fingers are not gripping the sides of the gun very hard. The concentration of dominant hand pressure is on the front of the grip and the backstrap. My support hand clamps side to side. This forms a box of force around the grip, and isolates trigger finger effects primarily in line with the bore.

You also need to work on calling your shots if you are going to keep developing your skills. This means being able to watch the sights as the gun fires and know where your bullet went without seeing the target. This is the best way to troubleshoot your technique. Otherwise it's a shot in the dark whether changing something helps or hurts.


Great description!

[Mr_White]

I guess Mr. League feels that, if the finger press is executed perfectly a shooter wouldn't need much support-hand pressure.

That's not wrong, but that idea falls apart when trying to shoot accurately at speed. Then gripping hard enough becomes really important.

[Gio]

That's not wrong, but that idea falls apart when trying to shoot accurately at speed. Then gripping hard enough becomes really important.

This.

Extreme grip pressure may not be ideal for slow fire bullseye type shooting because you will get more sight wobble, but extreme grip pressure will help you control recoil and mask a lot of imperfections in trigger press mechanics which even the top shooters have when shooting accurately at speed.

I haven't read League's book, but I'll go out on a limb and guess that he's not talking about ripping off sub 2 second 7 yd bill drills with a 3-4" shot spread or sub 4 second bill drills at 25 yards with all A/-0 hits.

[JohnO]

If you're going to put two hands on the gun then you might as well use them in the most effective manner possible.

[spinmove_]

This.

Extreme grip pressure may not be ideal for slow fire bullseye type shooting because you will get more sight wobble, but extreme grip pressure will help you control recoil and mask a lot of imperfections in trigger press mechanics which even the top shooters have when shooting accurately at speed.

I haven't read League's book, but I'll go out on a limb and guess that he's not talking about ripping off sub 2 second 7 yd bill drills with a 3-4" shot spread or sub 4 second bill drills at 25 yards with all A/-0 hits.

Yeah. It all depends upon the type of shooting you're doing really. Sure you can crush it all the time, but you don't need to for every shot. Just like there's different ways of using your sights depending upon the shot you have to make. The trick is knowing how to use your grip, trigger press, and sight picture in the most optimal way for the shot you're trying to make.

Up close and fast shots? Grip the crap out of it, press the trigger as best as you can, and use the silhouette of your sights. Further distance shot that you need precision with? Grip it solidly, but not crazy, REALLY focus on making that trigger press SMOOTH, all visual focus needs to be on front sight and take as much time as you NEED.

There are many ways to skin the cat because you're not necessarily skinning the same cat every time.

[Jay Cunningham]

The corollary is that there's a temptation to back off the grip too much for slow, precision shots.

If you back off too much, the gun is more likely to move during the trigger manipulation.

So even for "perfect trigger control" maximum accuracy, no time limit stuff... you should still maintain a good grip. You can think of it as pre-tensioning your hands so they don't move as much during trigger manipulation, if that helps.