Stupid auto question - is it worth it to change my own brakes?

[Nephrology]

So quick background is that my 2010 RAV4 is due for new brakes. Planning on replacing just the front pads and rotors. Basically the only other car work I have done up to this point in time is change my own oil, which I don't find to be difficult at all.

My question is this - is it worth it for me to replace these myself or have someone else do it for me? Quotes I've gotten around here to replace front pads + rotors are around $370 all told. Pricing everything out online, here is what I have for DIY:

Centric pads/rotors parts replacement kit - $100 shipped from RockAuto.com
Jack stands - ~$30
Floor jack - ~$100 (though people's opinion on what is 'good enough' seem to vary widely... I'd like to spend on the side of caution)
Torque wrench - ~$40
Anti-seize- $negligible
things I am forgetting: $??

So it looks like I'd be in for at least $270 on parts, necessary tools, etc; if not more. I am mostly confident I would be able to get the job done correctly giving infinite time, money, and energy, but my big fear is that I'll run into something massively frustrating (like a rusted caliper bolt) and get stuck with the car on jack stands.

So, the question is: should I spend the extra $100 on labor for a shop to do this for me? do it myself? Unlike oil changes I won't be using most of these parts at frequent intervals so I consider it to be more or less a sunk cost, but if I can save $100 without giving myself a massive headache then I am all ears...

[Malamute]

Ive done it, much of the cost is labor and shop price for parts. When terminally poor, I did stuff like that (or back when I was young and thought it was fun somehow). Ive also had a shop simply put new pads on (took some talking) when the discs were pretty OK for the most part. They lasted 2 years. A C clamp to get the pistons back in the calipers may be needed. The fluid should flow back up the lines into the master cylinder and may overflow, but otherwise its fairly simple. I think my pads for a Suburban was about $25-ish. A cheap floor jack would be handy. Jack stands are nice, but if youre not getting under it, not totally required.

I had a shop price front pads and rotors for me, they quoted some pretty high parts prices. I priced good quality parts over the counter, discs were like $25 or less each. WAY less than they quoted me for a shop job. I have nothing against people making a living, but when poor, I just couldn't afford it.

FWIW, I try to buy parts from parts houses that are easy to find nationwide, and don't buy the lowest priced parts. If I need them replaced and am on the road (or if you move), it isn't as hard to get the parts if you need them replaced.

I don't recall what my cheap floor jack cost, it was $40-ish I think. Ive used them for a transfer case and transmission jack also. I have a basket made for that purpose a freind made me from scrap he had around.

Yes, I'm cheap. Its cheap or not have wheels sometimes though.

[Luke]

Have you called your local advance and asked for prices? My dad uses those online places and most seem to sell cheap stuff. Not heard of the brand you mentioned.


Does your car have a factory jack? It's cheap and hard to use but it's free. I'd spent the money saved and buy a jack stand. You don't even need two of you can find someone willing to sell you one (do one side at a time).


How handy are you at working on cars? Brakes are stupid simple, they are also stupid important...

You will want some caliper slide pin grease, probably some loctite for the caliper bracket bolts and caliper bolts (use blue). Wash the rotors with warm soapy water before installing them. They come with what's basically grease on them to keep from rusting. I use brake cleaner to get it off but TECHNICALLY that's a no no, soapy water is also free.

Everyone has a different opinion of brake break in, I prefer to get them hot gradually, slowly taking them up to really freaking hot, and then letting them slowly cool back down. I use high speed and different pressure/duration of the brake pedal to acheive this.



YouTube is your friend. I'm sure you can google it and get a good understanding of what you'll need.

[orionz06]

Synthetic brake grease!!!!





Sent from my Nokia 3310 using an owl

[LorenzoS]

If you've never done it before, the money you save will probably not be worth the hours you spend doing the work. If your goal is to learn a valuable skill and get satisfaction from doing the work yourself then yes it's worth it.

[Luke]

Dielectric grease is the same thing if you have any of that laying around.

[Welder]

Replacing brakes and rotors is one of the simplest jobs on a vehicle unless the rotor is part of the hub. That, air filters, belt changes, and oil changes are cash cows for the cheapy shops who will also sell you shocks that you don't need. Considering these types of shops hire the greenest, bottom of the barrel type "mechanics" around, you are likely going to be at least as safe as a result of doing it yourself. Not to mention you'll either use a torque wrench or torque stick to put your wheels back on, which many of these shops will absolutely not do. They figure if 80 ft-lbs is good, 250 ft-lbs is better. And they won't use caliper grease or quality components.

ETA that jack stands are nice, but plenty of us have cribbed up the underside with 4x4's or what have you when jack stands weren't around. Just center the cribbing under either part of the unibody pressed frame rails or under the drip molding on rocker panels, which is probably the same place your jack is supposed to go. Leave the weight on the jack and just have the cribbing under there for peace of mind. Do one wheel at a time. I use a large pair of channel locks to compress caliper pistons - do it with a pad still in the piston side so you don't mar the piston. If your brake reservoir is full before you start, go ahead and use some shop towels to soak some of it out of there so you don't have a mess when you compress the pistons. Obviously don't drip it on your paint as it's a great paint remover.

[Welder]

.....

[Malamute]

... Not to mention you'll either use a torque wrench or torque stick to put your wheels back on, which many of these shops will absolutely not do. They figure if 80 ft-lbs is good, 250 ft-lbs is better.

I had a flat on the road once when a shop blasted the lug nuts back on after a repair. I was stuck on the shoulder of a ramp in a flaky looking area about midnight and wasn't strong enough to get them broken loose even with a breaker bar and socket and hammer. A sort of wild looking mex kid stopped and helped me. Good kid. Some shops get them close with the gun then torque them to finish. Good plan.

[RevolverRob]

So, it's $270 + The time and gas to acquire tools and parts + Anything you might forget -

Things you might be forgetting:

A brake piston tool (something that allows you to push the brake piston back into the caliper, you should be able to use a C-Clamp, but a good basic one is 8-bucks, the fancier ones run to about $40). You need a brake hardware kit for each wheel. Usually calipers have anti-rattle springs, dust boots, and maybe even torque-to-yield bolts that need to be replaced when pads and rotors are done. - You will likely need a socket for the hub on the rotors. It's usually between 22-30mm depending on the vehicle (example the '63 Sunbeam is a 28mm nut, the '11 Mazda2 is a 24mm nut). Chances are you'll need adapters to put a 3/4" drive socket on your 1/2" drive torque wrench or vice-versa depending on the torque wrench you buy. You should purchase a breaker bar in the drive-size of the socket of your hub-nut, because you should NEVER use a torque wrench to spin a tightened nut/bolt loose (that places stress on the torquing mechanism and will drive your torque wrench out of spec). - So once you factor in the additional costs (breaker bar, hub-nut socket, pad-spreader, hardware kit, a can of brake cleaner is useful) you're probably more into $300-320 with taxes and driving around to get everything or having it shipped.

Unless you intend to do a lot of maintenance to your vehicle involving jackstands and a jack? Pay someone else to do it. You spend $370 and will get a warranty/guarantee on the work (something you don't get from yourself). And you save yourself the 2-3 hours of parts/tools collecting, in addition to the 2-3 hours of labor. You're in med school man, your time is VALUABLE. Like $50/hour valuable. Pay someone who has the tools and kit to do it quick and right and spend sometime with your significant other, or shooting guns, or anything.

The only reasons I do work on my own cars is 1) If the car is old and I don't trust anyone else to do it, see: old British sportscar. 2) If I have performance-oriented parts or specific parts I want and the shop can't/won't order them.

-Rob

PS: I've done brakes, shocks, and struts as an apartment dweller and every single time I think I'm going to come out ahead of paying someone else to do it, financially. I have never, not once, actually come out more than $10 ahead.

[RevolverRob]

I had a flat on the road once when a shop blasted the lug nuts back on after a repair. I was stuck on the shoulder of a ramp in a flaky looking area about midnight and wasn't strong enough to get them broken loose even with a breaker bar and socket and hammer. A sort of wild looking mex kid stopped and helped me. Good kid. Some shops get them close with the gun then torque them to finish. Good plan.

My dad taught me this trick for stuck lugnuts that I've used for 15-years now. Fit your socket/lug wrench, turn the handle parallel to the ground. Climb up on top of the ratchet/lug wrench. Gently bounce up and down on the handle until 1) Your ratchet breaks. 2) Your lug nuts round off. 3) Your lug nuts break loose. If you have a good, tight fitting solid lug wrench, 1) and 2) will virtually never happen. If you can't bust them loose by jumping up and down on them with your body weight? Chances of them being broken loose by anything besides heat and an impact gun are basically zero.

[hufnagel]

As a rule I do as much maintenance and repair work on my vehicles as I possibly can. Unless you've found a shop you'd loan your first born to to take care of for a couple hours, finding a reputable shop is hard. They also tends to be a cost premium attached to them. I've done countless sets of brakes and wouldn't hesitate to do them again. Best thing you can do if you're not sure though, is find a buddy who's a wrench head, buy him a case of his favorite brew (to consume AFTER the work is done! :D ) and have him stand over your shoulder for guidance. I find that on average I take about as long as a shop to do most things, but I also take the time to deal with and clean up additional items I see while doing the primary job; something I've never seen a shop do. Finally, I generally don't do it for the cost savings (if there is any.) I do it for the satisfaction, the pride, and for the knowledge that I know EXACTLY what was done since I did it myself. (which also means I know who to blame if something goes wrong.)

[Welder]

I had a flat on the road once when a shop blasted the lug nuts back on after a repair. I was stuck on the shoulder of a ramp in a flaky looking area about midnight and wasn't strong enough to get them broken loose even with a breaker bar and socket and hammer. A sort of wild looking mex kid stopped and helped me. Good kid. Some shops get them close with the gun then torque them to finish. Good plan.

I just switch to a torque stick on my impact before tightening at all. That way there's no question about overtorquing. I've not used a torque wrench unless the needed torque is outside my set of sticks which go from 60 to 140 ft-lbs. It starts getting more complicated when you're working on heavy equipment that might need well over the capacity of 'normal' torque wrenches. That's when torque multipliers come into the mix and you start earning your money.

[Malamute]

Much of the newer stuff doesn't require the hubs to be removed, the discs are held on by the wheel. Basically like rear drums are/were.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmf1pcfyEo4

[Erik]

If you've never done it before, the money you save will probably not be worth the hours you spend doing the work. If your goal is to learn a valuable skill and get satisfaction from doing the work yourself then yes it's worth it.

I agree with this 100%. If you just want to save money, do it yourself and follow the advice about using the jack that came with the car and some wood blocks or something. If you think you want to be doing this kind of stuff regularly (some of us do like to work on our own vehicles), then a quality floor jack, jack stands, torque wrench, etc. are all good investments and handy to have around. If neither is true, pay a shop you trust to do it for you and drive on.

Centric pads and rotors are good quality, BTW.

[Luke]

RAV4 should have slip on rotors. Oil change places having bad mechanics isn't always true. Getting under a vehicle on a jack with no jack stand is dumb.

[NEPAKevin]

Does your car have a factory jack? It's cheap and hard to use but it's free. I'd spent the money saved and buy a jack stand. You don't even need two of you can find someone willing to sell you one (do one side at a time).

Respectfully disagree. Factory jacks have some major shortcomings. In addition to generally being pretty cheaply made, they sometimes do not roll or slide as they jack which if you block the rear wheels and/or have your emergency brake engaged (as you should) can be inherently dangerous. It's a common story in the free auto and towing trade magazines where dudes get squished when a tilted jack slips out. Used to also happen with the old heavy duty air bumper jacks. Those stories always remind me of the confession stories on gun forums by people shooting their pets with "empty" guns. ETA: +1 on jack stands. If you don't have access to a lift, jack stands are way better than getting stuck under a car as the jack slowly lets your vehicle crush you to death.




YouTube is your friend. I'm sure you can google it and get a good understanding of what you'll need.

Agreed. I try to watch several as technique and expertise varies. FWIW, the ones by A1 Auto seem pretty well made. When you can find one for the exact make/model/generation you are working on, its really helpful to know if you need specialty tools before you start tearing it apart. I would also go with the local parts store as even if it costs a little more, if you get the wrong part, it's usually easier and quicker to exchange. I forget if its Toyota or Honda or both that use a special brake fluid, which as you are likely to loose some when you compress the caliper, its probably a good idea the have some on hand.

[Welder]

If you have a good, tight fitting solid lug wrench, 1) and 2) will virtually never happen. If you can't bust them loose by jumping up and down on them with your body weight? Chances of them being broken loose by anything besides heat and an impact gun are basically zero.

Each of my vehicles has a 1/2" breaker bar and 6-point socket for use as a lug wrench in place of the short factory wrenches for this reason. 80 ft-lbs is about what I can pull with one arm on a 1/2" drive ratchet so technically I don't need the breaker bar to loosen properly-tightened lug nuts. But Murphy tends to visit at the worst times, plus the person you're trying to help by the side of the road may have last had their lug nuts hammered on by Speedy-Lube.

[Luke]

Respectfully disagree. Factory jacks have some major shortcomings. In addition to generally being pretty cheaply made, they sometimes do not roll or slide as they jack which if you block the rear wheels and/or have your emergency brake engaged can be inherently dangerous. It's a common story in the free auto and towing trade magazines where dudes get squished when a tilted jack slips out. Used to also happen with the old heavy duty air bumper jacks. Those stories always remind me of the confession stories on gun forums by people shooting their pets with "empty" guns.




Agreed. I try to watch several as technique and expertise varies. FWIW, the ones by A1 Auto seem pretty well made. When you can find one for the exact make/model/generation you are working on, its really helpful to know if you need specialty tools before you start tearing it apart. I would also go with the local parts store as even if it costs a little more, if you get the wrong part, it's usually easier and quicker to exchange. I forget if its Toyota or Honda or both that use a special brake fluid, which as you are likely to loose some when you compress the caliper, its probably a good idea the have some on hand.


That's what I said? Factory jacks are cheap and hard to use? That's why I recommended a jack stand.

[ranger]

Pay someone to do it.

[shootist26]

I replaced all four rotors and all pads last year on my civic. It took over 4 hours, of which 3 hours were spent getting the rusted rotor screws off. They were Philips head screws as well which made it ever more frustrating. Not sure if toyota uses rotor screws but if they do I'm sure they'll be basically glued on and a total PITA to remove. Having a friend help was really nice.

As for the cost of the jack, jack stands and whatnot, I wouldn't factor those into the cost comparison. Buying tools is an investment and you'll probably get to use thise on other projects for the next few decades.

Even though my personal experience was pretty painful, getting a better understanding of how to do my own repairs and how the car actually works was way more valuable in the end run

[Erik]

That's what I said? Factory jacks are cheap and hard to use? That's why I recommended a jack stand.

I agree, but you can certainly do the job with the factory jack and you can also securely block the car up with something other than a jack stand if it's all about saving money. Either way, getting under a car (or getting any part of you under a car) that is supported only by a jack, good or bad quality, is stupid.

[Welder]

Oil change places having bad mechanics isn't always true.

Agreed. But I would guess percentage-wise there are probably about as many good mechanics at speedy lubes as there are knowledgeable salespeople behind the counters of gun stores. Back during my days of working at the dealership I can't begin to tell you how many issues we had with stripped transmission pan bolts, wrung-off wheel studs, stripped oil pan drain plugs, improperly installed air filters, etc on vehicles that came in for repairs after having last been at our local speedy lube type shops. Not to say our mechanics were all A grade techs by any means, but the difference in quality of workmanship on these simple jobs couldn't have been more stark.

[Welder]

Not sure if toyota uses rotor screws but if they do I'm sure they'll be basically glued on and a total PITA to remove

Yeah, the tool you want for this is an impact screwdriver, and a cheapy from HF will work if they sell them. Basically just a screwdriver that you whack with a hammer and the force of the impact imparts a slight twist to the screw. Cheap ones used to sell in the $15 neighborhood but I haven't checked prices in a long time.

[shootist26]

Yeah, the tool you want for this is an impact screwdriver, and a cheapy from HF will work if they sell them. Basically just a screwdriver that you whack with a hammer and the force of the impact imparts a slight twist to the screw. Cheap ones used to sell in the $15 neighborhood but I haven't checked prices in a long time.
Yup. That's exactly what I used. Having somebody hold the rotor still and another person whack the impact driver over and over again until the screw breaks free was the best way to do it.

Made me hate Philips head screws forever

[ubervic]

If you envision doing not only this but other DIY projects on your vehicle and you are ready, willing and able to invest in the tools and time for skill-building.....and you are patient, then definitely do it.

If, on the other hand, you're looking at it as a cost/benefit analysis, and you're wondering about the relative value of saving $100 to do it yourself, then forget doing it yourself, pay someone else to do it, and move on.

I'm creeping towards the DIY camp with my '08 Tahoe, as it's getting up there in miles and I am having fun figuring out how to perform a range of small and medium-sized maintenance items and repairs. And I'm saving a few bucks along the way. But that's not everybody's gig.

[Luke]

Don't waste the money on that junk impact driver from HF. Use a center punch. Go in between the slots, one hard hit squared up to make a dimple then angle the punch to loosen it while hammering it.

[Nephrology]

So, it's $270 + The time and gas to acquire tools and parts + Anything you might forget -

Things you might be forgetting:

A brake piston tool (something that allows you to push the brake piston back into the caliper, you should be able to use a C-Clamp, but a good basic one is 8-bucks, the fancier ones run to about $40). You need a brake hardware kit for each wheel. Usually calipers have anti-rattle springs, dust boots, and maybe even torque-to-yield bolts that need to be replaced when pads and rotors are done. - You will likely need a socket for the hub on the rotors. It's usually between 22-30mm depending on the vehicle (example the '63 Sunbeam is a 28mm nut, the '11 Mazda2 is a 24mm nut). Chances are you'll need adapters to put a 3/4" drive socket on your 1/2" drive torque wrench or vice-versa depending on the torque wrench you buy. You should purchase a breaker bar in the drive-size of the socket of your hub-nut, because you should NEVER use a torque wrench to spin a tightened nut/bolt loose (that places stress on the torquing mechanism and will drive your torque wrench out of spec). - So once you factor in the additional costs (breaker bar, hub-nut socket, pad-spreader, hardware kit, a can of brake cleaner is useful) you're probably more into $300-320 with taxes and driving around to get everything or having it shipped.

Unless you intend to do a lot of maintenance to your vehicle involving jackstands and a jack? Pay someone else to do it. You spend $370 and will get a warranty/guarantee on the work (something you don't get from yourself). And you save yourself the 2-3 hours of parts/tools collecting, in addition to the 2-3 hours of labor. You're in med school man, your time is VALUABLE. Like $50/hour valuable. Pay someone who has the tools and kit to do it quick and right and spend sometime with your significant other, or shooting guns, or anything.

The only reasons I do work on my own cars is 1) If the car is old and I don't trust anyone else to do it, see: old British sportscar. 2) If I have performance-oriented parts or specific parts I want and the shop can't/won't order them.

-Rob

PS: I've done brakes, shocks, and struts as an apartment dweller and every single time I think I'm going to come out ahead of paying someone else to do it, financially. I have never, not once, actually come out more than $10 ahead.

Yeah, I have a 1/2" drive breaker bar (necessary for getting my oil drain pan bolt out) and I have socket wrenches but nothing where I can set how many ft-lbs of force something is tightened to.

I don't mind investing in tools to do the job correctly but how often I am likely to use those tools in the future is sort of the question.... I probably won't need my rear brakes done for at least another 30k miles (it's at 53k now) and I am not sure what other maintenance I'd need to use the floor jack for... I already have ramps that I use to change my oil with so this would really be just for putting the car on jack stands so I can pull off a wheel. I guess I could use it to rotate my tires, but that is such a cheap job too that I've always just paid someone $20 to do it because it's not worth my time.

Definitely leaning towards paying someone to do it at this point...


I agree, but you can certainly do the job with the factory jack and you can also securely block the car up with something other than a jack stand if it's all about saving money. Either way, getting under a car (or getting any part of you under a car) that is supported only by a jack, good or bad quality, is stupid.

That's fair - I could just use the factory jack and buy $30 jack stands. Drops the price of the initial investment quite a bit.

[RevolverRob]

Yeah, the tool you want for this is an impact screwdriver, and a cheapy from HF will work if they sell them. Basically just a screwdriver that you whack with a hammer and the force of the impact imparts a slight twist to the screw. Cheap ones used to sell in the $15 neighborhood but I haven't checked prices in a long time.

Yea, the HF ones are still about 15 bucks. The biggest issue with them is they seem to be a 1-5 time use tool, the bits aren't properly hardened usually and end up destroyed. For about 30-bucks you can pick up a Lisle impact screwdriver with good hardened bits in about 6-8 sizes that will do most jobs. A center punch used as Luke suggested was my way of doing it for years, but I've increasingly found screws in places where getting squared up on the center of the screw is a lot harder than getting it "almost" there and hammering it with an impact driver with a properly hardened bit which will generally just yank that thing open (warning: this is a real good way to screw up an otherwise perfectly usable phillips-head bolt). - Of course if you're low on cash, the old tried and true...a cheap flat-head screwdriver filed to approximately the right width, some penetrating oil (or a portable propane torch) and a good hammer will generally get the job done.

My wife didn't understand why I never throw away old screwdrivers until she watched me "file" an old screwdriver down on some concrete to use as a prybar when a I needed some extra leverage getting a stuck hubcap off...

[UNK]

Does this vehicle have ABS? I do believe you need a special tool for ABS or you will damage the valve.

[Luke]

Does this vehicle have ABS? I do believe you need a special tool for ABS or you will damage the valve.

Negative ghost rider

[LittleLebowski]

Apparently I'm very cheap :cool:

Vehicle's jack with wood underneath it, clamp, wire coat hanger, little bit of grease, my sockets and wrenches. Been doing it that way for years.

[NEPAKevin]

Yea, the HF ones are still about 15 bucks. The biggest issue with them is they seem to be a 1-5 time use tool, the bits aren't properly hardened usually and end up destroyed.


Never had to do one but I would think either a cordless impact (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ryobi-ONE-18-Volt-Lithium-Ion-Impact-Driver-Kit-P881/203466912) or an air impact would be the way to go.

[Luke]

Never had to do one but I would think either a cordless impact (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ryobi-ONE-18-Volt-Lithium-Ion-Impact-Driver-Kit-P881/203466912) or an air impact would be the way to go.

The way to go is the snap on impact hammer driver

[Greg]

Are you positive the rotors need to be replaced?

I often just replace pads and regrease all the slide pins.

[pr1042]

I did my wife's RX350 last year.

Pad change at the Toyota dealer was $199. I ended up getting OEM rotors/pads/shims from Sewell Lexus (local and has a Club Lexus discount) for $240 in parts.

I used to change my own oil and rotate tires but not worth it to me anymore. I don't mind doing brakes though as I can save a decent amount of money and/or get better parts for not much work.

[Corey]

I have never paid anyone to service the brakes on any of the cars I have owned. Brakes are just too quick and easy to do yourself, if you have the right tools. I have replaced master cylinders and even worked on drum brakes (not fun). But I have always been mechanically inclined and when I was growing up my father always fixed our cars himself, and did some work for friends and neighbors. The older I got, the more his repair technique was to tell me to do it. Nothing wrong with taking it in either as long as you know a good shop.

It really comes down to time vs. money. When I was young and broke, I replaced head gaskets and did other major repairs myself. Now that my time is worth more and I am not broke my new Honda goes to the dealer for an oil change. Dealer only charges $30 for an oil and filter change and doesn't take much longer that the quick lube places. Working on my own cars is like reloading ammo to me. I don't like it, but I will do it if it comes out on the right side of the time/money graph.

[Nephrology]

Are you positive the rotors need to be replaced?

I often just replace pads and regrease all the slide pins.

I've gotten a little brake shudder here and there so I at the very least need to hit them with brake cleaner... but either way rotors are cheap enough that I'd rather swap them both out at once as long as I'm going to the trouble. On my RAV4 the rotor just pops off so it doesn't add a lot more effort once you're there...

[Edster]

I changed my own brakes once. Now I can't stop.



(rimshot)

[Corey]

I've gotten a little brake shudder here and there so I at the very least need to hit them with brake cleaner... but either way rotors are cheap enough that I'd rather swap them both out at once as long as I'm going to the trouble. On my RAV4 the rotor just pops off so it doesn't add a lot more effort once you're there...

When I replaced the rotors on my 4Runner, I had originally planned to just have them turned. Then I found out that getting them turned cost more than buying new ones.

[Welder]

I've gotten a little brake shudder here and there so I at the very least need to hit them with brake cleaner... but either way rotors are cheap enough that I'd rather swap them both out at once as long as I'm going to the trouble. On my RAV4 the rotor just pops off so it doesn't add a lot more effort once you're there...

Hey Neph, I'm not sure how you're expecting brake cleaner to help your warped rotors, but I'm afraid it won't. The heat stresses are built into them now and the only permanent cure is to replace them and then change your braking habits if possible. Some vehicles are just bad for this problem - the rotors aren't a large enough heat sink for what the size of the vehicle requires. I recall Jeep Grand Cherokees back in the day being bad for this, as were Toyota Sienna minivans. Just a couple that stood out in my mind.

[Welder]

Yea, the HF ones are still about 15 bucks. The biggest issue with them is they seem to be a 1-5 time use tool, the bits aren't properly hardened usually and end up destroyed. For about 30-bucks you can pick up a Lisle impact screwdriver with good hardened bits in about 6-8 sizes that will do most jobs.

Yeah, Lisle is a good name. Mine is some no-name Chinese tool from the late '90's, but it was a good day at the factory - I'm still on the original bits. It doesn't get used much anymore but was often used for Civic rear drum removal and miscellaneous screws on the old '80's Jap bikes I used to tinker with.

[orionz06]

Are you positive the rotors need to be replaced?

I often just replace pads and regrease all the slide pins.

Reusing rotors is near silly. There's not usually enough material left to last through two sets of pads anyway and it nearly guarantees zero issues with everything greased up that it's worth it.

It was almost like clockwork when someone would come into the shop I worked at. The real shame was they did all of the work and did it right, just reused parts.


Sent from my Nokia 3310 using an owl

[Nephrology]

Hey Neph, I'm not sure how you're expecting brake cleaner to help your warped rotors, but I'm afraid it won't. The heat stresses are built into them now and the only permanent cure is to replace them and then change your braking habits if possible. Some vehicles are just bad for this problem - the rotors aren't a large enough heat sink for what the size of the vehicle requires. I recall Jeep Grand Cherokees back in the day being bad for this, as were Toyota Sienna minivans. Just a couple that stood out in my mind.

I only bring it up because I often drive on very sandy/muddy dirt roads and it's extremely likely I have some grime on the rotors that can be cleaned off. That said I also know my brakes need changing sooner or later; just hoping this might improve their performance in the last few weeks of their life.


When I replaced the rotors on my 4Runner, I had originally planned to just have them turned. Then I found out that getting them turned cost more than buying new ones.

Yeah, I looked into it and it seemed like I may as well just buy new rotors. They're not horrifically expensive anyway.

[LittleLebowski]

I too was surprised at how rotors aren't turned anymore but rather replaced. However, it's still cheaper. I chock the vehicle, loosen the lug nuts on the wheels, slide some wood blocks under the vehicle, put the jack on the wood blocks, jack up the vehicle, take off the wheel, take off the caliper, compress the caliper with a clamp, hang the caliper from my wire coat hanger, yank the old rotor, install the new rotor, take off the clamp, grease/install the new pads, slap on the caliper, tighten the caliper, put the wheel on, hand tighten the lug nuts, lower the jack all of the way, retighten lug nuts, check torque, and DUN.

I'm sure I'm going to get killed on the streets but this way has worked for years for me and passes Virginia's seriously stringent safety inspection.

[orionz06]

Not sure I'd call "your shit needs to work" stringent. The stuff that does pass is rather sad in some respects. One can have shit tires, shit brakes, and a barely functioning suspension so long as there's enough tread depth/material/no leaks and you're fine.




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[Nephrology]

I too was surprised at how rotors aren't turned anymore but rather replaced. However, it's still cheaper. I chock the vehicle, loosen the lug nuts on the wheels, slide some wood blocks under the vehicle, put the jack on the wood blocks, jack up the vehicle, take off the wheel, take off the caliper, compress the caliper with a clamp, hang the caliper from my wire coat hanger, yank the old rotor, install the new rotor, take off the clamp, grease/install the new pads, slap on the caliper, tighten the caliper, put the wheel on, hand tighten the lug nuts, lower the jack all of the way, retighten lug nuts, check torque, and DUN.

I'm sure I'm going to get killed on the streets but this way has worked for years for me and passes Virginia's seriously stringent safety inspection.

so if I were to do it this way.... $30 jack stands, $40 torque wrench to make sure my lug nuts are to the correct tightness, $8 C clamp, $100 parts, $15 in anti-seize + silicon grease... am I missing anything?

[Welder]

I only bring it up because I often drive on very sandy/muddy dirt roads and it's extremely likely I have some grime on the rotors that can be cleaned off. That said I also know my brakes need changing sooner or later; just hoping this might improve their performance in the last few weeks of their life.

I understand what you're thinking but unless you've been driving through grease or oil there isn't anything you could've gotten on them that's still on the rotor faces after a brake application. The pads keep the swept area clear, and if any particles embedded themselves in the pads, they're not coming back out with a spritz of Brakleen.

There's no harm in doing what you're talking about, but your time would be more valuable sitting in front of your computer teaching me human physiology. :D

PS - Warped rotors are annoying, but they're not really a safety thing if money is an issue for you right now. If you haven't looked at the amount of pad left, you might pull the wheels off and take a quick look to satisfy yourself that the shop isn't trying to sell you brakes when you don't *need* them. If/when you do this, be sure to put an eyeball on both pads as they usually wear at different rates, with the inner one often being more worn. In VA 2/32" remaining material is the limit for passing state inspection. Rear brakes generally last a lot longer than fronts as they only do about 20 percent of the braking - this is why so many cars of even recent manufacture have / had rear drums. Of course there are some oddballs out there that wear out rears before fronts due to rearward bias - some VW's come to mind.

Quick story and I'm done. Sister in law from MD said the dealership told her that her Corolla needed all new pads and rotors front and rear to the tune of some ridiculous amount of money like $1,000. She said no thanks for now, brought the car home, and we put it up on jackstands to have a look at it. Turns out everything was in spec with the front pads having half of their life remaining and nearly no wear on the rear pads at all! The dealership got an earful for that one. As a mechanic I got a chance to hear plenty of shady stories from other mechanics about past shops they'd worked at which led to my somewhat jaded views on the industry in general.

[Welder]

so if I were to do it this way.... $30 jack stands, $40 torque wrench to make sure my lug nuts are to the correct tightness, $8 C clamp, $100 parts, $15 in anti-seize + silicon grease... am I missing anything?

You may want a little prybar to spread the caliper enough to get it over the worn edges of the rotor. Can of Brakleen or similar to clean the rust preventative off the rotor face before installation. Some rags.

I don't know where you live, but if you're near me I'd be happy for you to bring the car here and we could put it up on my lift and get it done in a snap.

[TCinVA]

I've done a number of brake jobs over the years:

- The jack that's in your trunk is like a Leatherman. It's meant to be an on-the-fly resource that gets you out of a tight spot. It is by no means the best tool for any particular job.

- Big. Rubber. Mallet. Or deadblow hammer. These will be invaluable if you have a 4 wheel disc setup, as many vehicles have a parking brake that lives inside of a drum in the rear caliper. These often require considerable persuasion from the aforementioned big damn hammers to come off.

- PB Blaster (or a 50/50 mix of acetone and ATF transmission fluid) liberally applied to parts you're going to be wrenching on the night before and allowed to sit can make life easier.

- LL's coat hanger trick is a time-honored tradition.

- Heavy duty rubber gloves. I don't mind getting my hands dirty but the shit you are handling isn't exactly good for you and getting your hands greased up just makes the whole process more difficult.

- When was the last time you replaced your brake fluid? If you have never replaced your brake fluid now would be a good time, and it would be a good job for the dealer/shop who has the proper vacuum tools. If you have an assistant you can do a quick and dirty bleed with a number of the cheap kits out there on the web or in the parts store. It makes a huge difference in pedal feel.

- Crack the bleed valve on each piston ever so slightly when you are compressing the piston. The Irwin Quick-Grip style clamps work splendidly for compressing the piston. You can certainly do it with a standard C style clamp, but given the utility of the Quick-Grip style clamps for other tasks I'd suggest investing in those.

- Make sure you properly clean the rotors and bed the brakes when the job is done. Rotors are shipped with a corrosion preventing coating that has to be properly cleaned off before they will work properly. Similarly, you want to avoid getting grease on the rotors.

- Keep a tasty beverage nearby.

I actually kind of like doing brake jobs as they're not super difficult most of the time and every now and then it's therapeutic to just fix something mechanical with your own hands.

[Luke]

Nevermind

[orionz06]

As a mechanic I got a chance to hear plenty of shady stories from other mechanics about past shops they'd worked at which led to my somewhat jaded views on the industry in general.
I think there are just as many people who can't listen or hear what they wanna hear when told things and don't usually discern between should-need to-won't pass and instantly assume that mechanics are lining their pockets with money. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen but the frequency in which friends tell me stories and their cars actually being ok and not needing the recommended service is low.

This stems more from a complete lack of understanding of their vehicle though and it's hard to convince anyone to take interest.


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[Nephrology]

- When was the last time you replaced your brake fluid? If you have never replaced your brake fluid now would be a good time, and it would be a good job for the dealer/shop who has the proper vacuum tools. If you have an assistant you can do a quick and dirty bleed with a number of the cheap kits out there on the web or in the parts store. It makes a huge difference in pedal feel.

I had "all fluids" changed out about 2 years ago when I brought it into a shop for some other unrelated work but to be shamefully honest I don't know if they did brake fluid.



I don't know where you live, but if you're near me I'd be happy for you to bring the car here and we could put it up on my lift and get it done in a snap.

Thanks for the offer! Unfortunately I live in CO so that would be quite the drive...

[Welder]

I had "all fluids" changed out about 2 years ago when I brought it into a shop for some other unrelated work but to be shamefully honest I don't know if they did brake fluid.

The US has been fairly slow in adopting the idea that brake fluid needs to be changed on a regular basis. I change mine every 2 years but I live in an abnormally humid climate. Not changing it not only lowers its boiling point as it absorbs water but leads to all sorts of gunk buildup in the system. This is most noticeable in motorcycles whose small systems are dramatically affected if the fluid is left unchanged for more than a couple of years.

[orionz06]

It's kinda funny, lots of mechanics are adamantly against flushing out old fluid because the way it's always been, etc. Folks view it as an upsell thing and ignore it.





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[Nephrology]

The US has been fairly slow in adopting the idea that brake fluid needs to be changed on a regular basis. I change mine every 2 years but I live in an abnormally humid climate. Not changing it not only lowers its boiling point as it absorbs water but leads to all sorts of gunk buildup in the system. This is most noticeable in motorcycles whose small systems are dramatically affected if the fluid is left unchanged for more than a couple of years.

Sounds like it might be worth paying for the brake swap if they'll flush my brake fluid at the same time...

[Malamute]

Sister in law from MD said the dealership told her that her Corolla needed all new pads and rotors front and rear to the tune of some ridiculous amount of money like $1,000. She said no thanks for now, brought the car home, and we put it up on jackstands to have a look at it. Turns out everything was in spec with the front pads having half of their life remaining and nearly no wear on the rear pads at all! The dealership got an earful for that one. As a mechanic I got a chance to hear plenty of shady stories from other mechanics about past shops they'd worked at which led to my somewhat jaded views on the industry in general.

I heard a bit about taking cars to dealers for checking out, when women took them in, they were told the cars needed much more work. When men took the exact same cars to the same mechanics/dealers, they were told they needed much less work. Pretty low.

[Luke]

That's not always true.. I've worked for small independent shops, large independent shops, used car dealerships and new car dealerships and I've NEVER seen any of those issues. Do they exist? Yes, but geese guys. As gun owners we should all understand stereotypes aren't always true.

[Welder]

I think there are just as many people who can't listen or hear what they wanna hear when told things and don't usually discern between should-need to-won't pass and instantly assume that mechanics are lining their pockets with money.....This stems more from a complete lack of understanding of their vehicle though and it's hard to convince anyone to take interest.

Absolutely agree, and I don't mean to say every shop is being dishonest and apologize if it came across that way. The dealership I worked at was as straight up as they come with great employees from top to bottom. But if you're waiting with it, it never hurts to ask to be taken back to your car and shown what's going on with it and why the repairs are needed, and a good shop will do this as it encourages trust and future business. They'll also be able to explain in layman's terms why certain preventative maintenance is needed.

[Malamute]

That's not always true.. I've worked for small independent shops, large independent shops, used car dealerships and new car dealerships and I've NEVER seen any of those issues. Do they exist? Yes, but geese guys. As gun owners we should all understand stereotypes aren't always true.

No, not always true, though in the bit I heard it happened more often than not where they took them to.

[orionz06]

They'll also be able to explain in layman's terms why certain preventative maintenance is needed.

That's where most places suck.


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[Welder]

I heard a bit about taking cars to dealers for checking out, when women took them in, they were told the cars needed much more work. When men took the exact same cars to the same mechanics/dealers, they were told they needed much less work. Pretty low.

Interesting. I would have thought the same mechanic would have recognized the same car coming in for the same checkout even if there was some time in between, considering that checkouts are a fairly rare thing. It is true that two mechanics will often have two different ideas of what a vehicle needs. Sometimes this is just an honest difference of opinion and sometimes it's based on knowing the ins and outs of what flat rate pays for certain repairs vs the actual time it takes to do the work. Or in my sister in law's case, the guaranteed free money provided by not doing a brake job at all on the car knowing it would be perfectly fine for quite a while before it actually needed the work. At which time they could do the work for real. Hard to know in her case if the lie originated with the mechanic or the service writer, or both.

[TCinVA]

I had "all fluids" changed out about 2 years ago when I brought it into a shop for some other unrelated work but to be shamefully honest I don't know if they did brake fluid.


Probably didn't unless specifically directed to. Even if they did 3 years is the recommended change interval. So even if you do the brake job yourself (which I'm all for) you at least want to have the brake fluid changed afterwards.

[HopetonBrown]

My friend owns a shop here in the SF Bay Area. He charges $240.

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[RevolverRob]

Hey Neph,

https://www.amazon.com/Craftsman-Floor-Jack-Set-Stands/dp/B00C0QEZO4

I've used a little set like this for basic things for years. As good as a nice big floor jack and big robust stands? No. But sturdy and reliable.

Centric rotors are generally better than OE about warping. The Mazda 2 had a warped rotor on the right front when I bought it (it had 13k miles on it). The rotors used in OE today are best described as "tinker toys". Just something that meets a lowest-bidder and engineering spec. Since the 2 sees the occasional autocross and plenty of spirited driving, I popped for new Centric blanks and Porterfield R4-S brake pads. Best upgrade I've made to the car. I've had a couple of panic stops and at least one accident avoided that resulted in the ABS kicked in (moron pulled out in front of me on a wet street, when I was driving about 50 mph). No warping, no fading. In my opinion, all OE brakes should be viewed through a skeptical lens. Upgrade whenever possible.

[orionz06]

Warped or unevenly bedded...?


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[RevolverRob]

Warped or unevenly bedded...?


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Warped. I wanted to check and used my runout gauge to check it, before buying new rotors. Lateral runout on the "unwarped" side was .001 or basically stock. The "warped" side was .0032, max recommended lateral runout from Mazda is .0015. Still not sure how things got quite that bad. But I noticed when I bought the car it had a new rim and different tire than OE. I wonder if the PO hit a curb hard enough to blowout. A combination of a nasty hit at higher speeds could definitely induce some nasty runout.

Proper bedding is paramount! Always properly bed with any brake pad, it is especially important with performance pads though.

[orionz06]

What was the thickness variation?





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[Nephrology]

Hey Neph,

https://www.amazon.com/Craftsman-Floor-Jack-Set-Stands/dp/B00C0QEZO4

I've used a little set like this for basic things for years. As good as a nice big floor jack and big robust stands? No. But sturdy and reliable.

Centric rotors are generally better than OE about warping. The Mazda 2 had a warped rotor on the right front when I bought it (it had 13k miles on it). The rotors used in OE today are best described as "tinker toys". Just something that meets a lowest-bidder and engineering spec. Since the 2 sees the occasional autocross and plenty of spirited driving, I popped for new Centric blanks and Porterfield R4-S brake pads. Best upgrade I've made to the car. I've had a couple of panic stops and at least one accident avoided that resulted in the ABS kicked in (moron pulled out in front of me on a wet street, when I was driving about 50 mph). No warping, no fading. In my opinion, all OE brakes should be viewed through a skeptical lens. Upgrade whenever possible.


Hrm... you know after 7 pages of this I still have no idea if I should do this myself or pay someone to do it....

[MistWolf]

I've done many brake jobs in my time. Some went smoothly, some did not. One brake job was such a pain I took it to a shop. The reality is, you won't know until you do it yourself, or take it to a shop. I know that sounds wishy washy but it's true. You don't know how things will turn out until you make a decision and get it done.

Right now, you're suffering from "Analysis Paralysis", making no choice at all. That's worse than making a choice that's not the best choice

[45dotACP]

Yup. That's exactly what I used. Having somebody hold the rotor still and another person whack the impact driver over and over again until the screw breaks free was the best way to do it.

Made me hate Philips head screws forever
Ugh! My fucking accord had those fucking fuckers on them.

I still get emotional about that. That was the longest I ever spent on a "simple" rotor replacement...

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[orionz06]

Ugh! My fucking accord had those fucking fuckers on them.

I still get emotional about that. That was the longest I ever spent on a "simple" rotor replacement...

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PB Blaster! I've not seen man that PB and the hammer impact driver didn't take care of.

[45dotACP]

PB Blaster! I've not seen man that PB and the hammer impact driver didn't take care of.
Yeah, the HF tool did the trick, but not for lack of trying everything else...cordless impact driver, heat gun, WD40...me and my 225lb brother worked that bastard for an eternity.

[Nephrology]

Ugh! My fucking accord had those fucking fuckers on them.

I still get emotional about that. That was the longest I ever spent on a "simple" rotor replacement...

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From this walk through (http://forum.rav4driversclub.com/topic790.html), it looks like the rotors mount directly on the hub with no screws to mess with at all.

I bumped into a college friend of mine last night; he lives about ~30m from me. I forgot he was big into cars/motorcycles and he offered to help me with my brakes if I wanted. I'm gonna take him up on it. He should have all the tools/jack stands/etc I need, so all I have to do is buy the parts and drive it to his place. I'll probably pay an auto shop to change my brake fluid as it seems like a PITA and hopefully won't be too spendy.

[Welder]

Sounds like you have a good plan. Kudos for getting the brake fluid changed.

[OlongJohnson]

I bumped into a college friend of mine last night; he lives about ~30m from me. I forgot he was big into cars/motorcycles and he offered to help me with my brakes if I wanted. I'm gonna take him up on it. He should have all the tools/jack stands/etc I need, so all I have to do is buy the parts and drive it to his place. I'll probably pay an auto shop to change my brake fluid as it seems like a PITA and hopefully won't be too spendy.

Changing the fluid is actually easy if you have two people. If your friend is willing to spin wrenches, he will probably expect to change the fluid, too. It's not a bit deal. Ten or fifteen minutes, tops.

[Rich@CCC]

I did not read every post so if this has already been mentioned I'll just reiterate;

All of the specialty tools that might be needed(depending on your vehicle) can be had through the Loan A Tool program at Auto Zone. Basically, you but the tool and return it for a full refund when you are done with the job. They have everything available from pitman arm separators to refrigeration evacuation pumps and manifolds. Caliper compressing tools and vacuum bleed systems. I have a 24" 1/2" drive breaker bar that I am returning today.

Also remember that AZ also has a lifetime (no BS to steel a phrase from Dillon) guaranty on all of their brake pads and a huge number of parts(rotors are typically warranted for 2 years).

Full disclosure: I am a part timer at my local AutoZone and NO we do not work on commission.