Ricochet: Bullet Departure Angle?

[RJ]

I came across this interesting 1974 FBI training film, Shooting for Survival, while browsing videos the other night.


https://youtu.be/waWoaw1yuEI

One of the aspects of shooting I had not seen before was how it showed that bullet trajectory after ricochet was much shallower than I would have thought.

In this scene, the instructor actually shoots balloons laterally along a wall:

10196

Which made me think a bit about the use of cover. If you stuck your head out just slightly, you might receive a round, even though the incoming trajectory is larger. In other words, it is not like a tennis ball.


1) I realize that this film is dated, so is this something still of concern in situations where use of cover is taught?
2) Generally speaking, does today's typical duty ammunition (JHP, say P9HST rounds) still exhibit this effect?

[Peally]

Bullets do fucky things. I would say their ricochet behaviour falls solidly under "it depends" :D

Surface, bullet type, calibre, angle, whether God is feeling giddy that day, etc. There's a million variables.

[olstyn]

There's a million variables.

No joke. Jacket fragments in particular seem to go in nearly random directions when bullets strike steel, for example.

[Poconnor]

I was taught that bullets follow walls so long ago that I don't remember from where. It depends on the bullet and the wall. I know when I was in ghetto apartment buildings with cinder block walls I thought about richocets. I experimented with it on the range. I would place steel targets on the ground and bounce bullets into the targets. It was very dependant on placing the ground plate a specific distance from the target. The only reasonable instance I anticipated was if a shooter was using a car as cover and I couldn't get hits on him I could try and bounce rounds under the car into their legs/ ankles.

[41magfan]

Bullet deflection has more to do with the laws of physics than it does any particular technology related to the projectile.

[scjbash]

Paul Howe talks about this in one of his Panteao videos. I don't remember the specifics and I closed my Panteao account but IIRC he was demonstrating similar shallow ricochets.

[txdpd]

Paul Howe covered cars and ricochets a several years ago.

http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/published/the_myth_of_cover_07.pdf

[Glenn E. Meyer]

We did a good deal of shooting and observing such in Dave Spaulding's automobile tactics class. One take away point was that if you were behind a car, a round fired at angle would make it under the car and into you.

[RJ]

Bullet deflection has more to do with the laws of physics than it does any particular technology related to the projectile.

Yeah, I was checking around and ran into this.

http://bulletphysics.org/wordpress/?p=41

Might download this sdk and play around with it.

[RJ]

Came across my newsfeed recently, interesting:

https://www.facebook.com/TheSuarezGroup/posts/1136110379838030

[hufnagel]

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/68/6824767fa974849c8b60dfeed3b5f0efa9077b35c3eec2fbdd 19283171634e5b.jpg

Seriously though, the number of uncontrollable variables involved in ricochets... forgetaboutit. I'm certain there's some "general" observations and expected effects to be found, but precision isn't going to ever happen.

[LSP552]

We did a good deal of shooting and observing such in Dave Spaulding's automobile tactics class. One take away point was that if you were behind a car, a round fired at angle would make it under the car and into you.

Pretty much. I'm personally aware of an LSP shooting involving some bank robbers where the trooper flinched a round between his and their cars and the .357 skipped under and whacked a robber's ankle. Bullets following walls and roads has been well known for a long time.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I know of at least two police shooting incidents where rounds were skipped into an offender while they used a car for cover. One was a local event in which two revolver armed cops fired 20 rounds between them (there's a couple of speedloader uses!) and hit a nut case through the kidneys and brain, as he lay under a car shooting at them with a Star 9mm pistol.

The other one all of us have seen: the North Hollywood Shitstorm, February 1997, in which that LAPD D Platoon four man element took on the last shooter as he used a vehicle for cover and skipped more than a dozen 5.56 rounds into his lower extremities, resulting in his departure.

[rsa-otc]

The use of intentional ricochet has been part of my courses for over 30 years. Both how to use them and the danger to the officer. Unfortunately due to range restrictions it is usually only academic and no live fire demos. I have used the concepts in Paul Howes article as well. I demo by string from the offender, off the hard surface (either a simulated corner or car hood) to demonstrate the danger of crowding "cover".

[Velo Dog]

This ricochet effect is also one of the reasons I believe fully automatic fire may be more effective than the usual range demonstration would suggest.

[DocGKR]

Luke Haag (of AFTE) has done quite a bit of work on this subject. Yielding surfaces (water, sod, sand, sheet metal, etc...) demonstrate high ricochet angles of 10 - 15 degrees or more; unyielding surfaces (concrete, stone, steel plates, etc...) typically offer low ricochet angles of 1 degree or less. This is quite consistent and repeatable with proper testing.

[TiroFijo]

[QUOTE=DocGKR;536276]Luke Haag (of AFTE) has done quite a bit of work on this subject. Yielding surfaces (water, sod, sand, sheet metal, etc...) demonstrate high ricochet angles of 10

Doc, do you have a link to a study or article?

Does the bullet velocity, construction type, core material, and shape/nose profile have any influence in this?

[P.E. Kelley]

Just for fun.
Shot this as part of a "promo" for MGM Targets. (in 2011, damn I am getting old)

https://youtu.be/ktqjY6BV63Q