PDA

View Full Version : wetted nitrocellulose (a key component of smokeless powder) reclassified by ATF?



Rich@CCC
08-30-2016, 02:32 PM
http://www.alloutdoor.com/2016/08/30...o-prices-roof/ (http://www.alloutdoor.com/2016/08/30/breaking-latest-atf-surprise-drive-ammo-prices-roof/)

With no advance warning or grandfather/compliance period, the ATF has apparently reclassified smokeless powder as a high explosive.

Has anyone seen, confirmed or debunked this? It seems that it would instantly destroy reloading and be a huge blow to the ammo industry at every level, including supplying the military.

Luke
08-30-2016, 03:02 PM
Oh no :(

Hauptmann
08-30-2016, 03:15 PM
http://www.alloutdoor.com/2016/08/30...o-prices-roof/ (http://www.alloutdoor.com/2016/08/30/breaking-latest-atf-surprise-drive-ammo-prices-roof/)

With no advance warning or grandfather/compliance period, the ATF has apparently reclassified smokeless powder as a high explosive.

Has anyone seen, confirmed or debunked this? It seems that it would instantly destroy reloading and be a huge blow to the ammo industry at every level, including supplying the military.

More s**t from the ATF.

Luke
08-30-2016, 03:29 PM
How can we find out if it's true!?! I'm like out of powder :(((

BehindBlueI's
08-30-2016, 03:30 PM
http://www.ammoland.com/2016/08/atf-reclassifies-wetted-nitrocellulose-as-explosive-materials-under-federal-laws/#axzz4IqWH2BeZ

Luke
08-30-2016, 03:44 PM
How bad is this and do we need to go out and buy now?

Hauptmann
08-30-2016, 03:47 PM
How can we find out if it's true!?! I'm like out of powder :(((

Well that's just unacceptable regardless of what is going on.

Luke
08-30-2016, 03:51 PM
Tell me about it. Im like panicking. Low on consumables and money is a bad combo. I was planning on buying more Friday when I got paid but I may have to speed the process up now :(


I will literally die of a broken heart if I can't shoot my gat

Mitch
08-30-2016, 04:12 PM
Wow, no grace period?

I'd be surprised if this stands, this really screws LE and Mil too.

If it sticks I'm pretty much screwed. Baby on the way + huge jump in mortgage = shit outta luck on gun powder money.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

JCS
08-30-2016, 04:29 PM
Tell me about it. Im like panicking. Low on consumables and money is a bad combo. I was planning on buying more Friday when I got paid but I may have to speed the process up now :(


I will literally die of a broken heart if I can't shoot my gat

It says powder and primers aren't included in that article.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

CCT125US
08-30-2016, 04:33 PM
It says powder and primers aren't included in that article.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You're letting facts get in the way of emotion. Of course that never stopped hoarders and speculators before.

Trooper224
08-30-2016, 04:45 PM
The only thing that will stop your ability to get ammo and components is spreading panic with shit like this thread.

Luke
08-30-2016, 04:55 PM
Not my fault I can't read... I've already texted my guy that I was coming buy. See what you've made me do Internet!?

5pins
08-30-2016, 05:18 PM
The way I read, it was once it's loaded in to a case it becomes small arms ammunition. However before that point it's classified an explosive.

JCS
08-30-2016, 05:31 PM
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160830/62638a39015fe4a4609273efa21339d3.jpg
Powders and primers are exempt. Others are not until incorporated into one of the lists.

I'm not a lawyer so my opinion is worth zero. But I think we are safe with powder and primers. If not, I'm glad all mine were lost in that flood in my garage ;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Duelist
08-30-2016, 05:31 PM
The way I read, it was once it's loaded in to a case it becomes small arms ammunition. However before that point it's classified an explosive.

Once the wetted nitrocellulose is incorporated in small arms ammunition or a component thereof, such as gunpowder, it is exempt.

Snapshot
08-30-2016, 05:33 PM
I think this affects one of the main precursor materials used to make (among other things) smokeless powder,

Classification of wetted nitrocellulose as a high explosive (thus voiding current agreements, letters, etc.) imposes more stringent storage, handling, and other requirements which will affect the production of powder for use in commercial and personal loading.

So powder and loaded cartridges are not affected but the supply of materials to manufacture the powder may be disrupted.

Chuck Haggard
08-30-2016, 05:39 PM
You can't make ammo without powder, and you have to be able to make the powder.

Hambo
08-30-2016, 06:32 PM
You're letting facts get in the way of emotion.

Word. Instead of going full tilt panic over every internet rumor I recommend these steps.
1) Reach down and grab your manhood.
2) Ask yourself what John Wayne would do.
3) CALM THE FUCK DOWN.

Josh Runkle
08-30-2016, 06:38 PM
Word. Instead of going full tilt panic over every internet rumor I recommend these steps.
1) Reach down and grab your manhood.
2) Ask yourself what John Wayne would do.
3) CALM THE FUCK DOWN.

John Wayne probably pissed black and smokeless powders, so, I can understand why he wouldn't get too worried over all of this.

Tamara
08-30-2016, 07:32 PM
Thread title is SUPER misleading.

Hauptmann
08-30-2016, 08:06 PM
Not my fault I can't read... I've already texted my guy that I was coming buy. See what you've made me do Internet!?

Dude, you are still a slacker. Get your stocks back up before the apocalypse!

MistWolf
08-30-2016, 08:20 PM
Now we know why the .gov has been buying up so much ammo

Hauptmann
08-30-2016, 08:44 PM
Now we know why the .gov has been buying up so much ammo

No more than usual to supply ammo to tens of thousands of officers/agents. Previously, field offices would order all their ammo on their own. Now with DHS centralized orders, every field office from Alaska, to Guam, to the Solomon Islands orders their ammo through DHS, and then DHS distributes it out to the field offices. The only difference now is that there are a few bulk purchase orders available via the freedom of information act that make the media headlines. My field office has a decent stock, but we maintain that because we have been unable to order in previous years so we need to be stocked for a minimum of two years.

Josh Runkle
08-30-2016, 08:52 PM
...but I read on infowars that...

LittleLebowski
08-30-2016, 09:00 PM
This will surely fix many problems.

Rich@CCC
08-30-2016, 09:01 PM
OK, I mis read both of the articles the first time through and saw that the new classification encompassed the finished smokeless powder, not just the key raw component of the powder.

I can't edit the OP an longer so if one of the mods would please change the title to something a bit more accurate? That'd be greeat..

Rich@CCC
08-30-2016, 09:02 PM
Beat me to the punch again Tom!

Rich@CCC
08-30-2016, 09:04 PM
How much you want to bet that the price of powder goes up drastically regardless of whether there's a hording run or not?

HCM
08-30-2016, 09:31 PM
No more than usual to supply ammo to tens of thousands of officers/agents. Previously, field offices would order all their ammo on their own. Now with DHS centralized orders, every field office from Alaska, to Guam, to the Solomon Islands orders their ammo through DHS, and then DHS distributes it out to the field offices. The only difference now is that there are a few bulk purchase orders available via the freedom of information act that make the media headlines. My field office has a decent stock, but we maintain that because we have been unable to order in previous years so we need to be stocked for a minimum of two years.

....and multiple agencies buying on one contract = cheaper prices. It's simply the Costco /Sams Club theory of ammo purchasing.

Writing Federal contracts costs money so one centralized multi year contract saves $$$ in admin costs.

For a demonstration of scale, ICE, and CBP/USBP combined have about 62,000 sworn LEO's. Each is issued 12 round .40 cal HK or SIG duty pistol and 4 magazines. So 4 full 12 round mags plus one in the chamber is 49 rounds of duty carry ( 1 in the chamber plus one mag in gun, two spares and one in your bag / glove box / vest carrier etc).

That's 3,038,000 rounds just in current duty carry "walking around" ammo.

That ammo is shot up and replaced during quarterly qualification and training ( 150 to 250 rounds per quarter). Some will shoot more depending on assignment. 62,000 x 250 = 15,500,00 rounds just in minimum qualification and sustainment training. That is just handguns.

Now add other DHS agencies like the US Coast Guard, USSS, FAMS etc getting ammo via the same contract. Then add non DHS agencies like NCIS which also get their ammo off the DHS contract.

Then there is FLETC, the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, which is also part of DHS. All federal LEA's except the FBI and DEA do all or part of their training at FLETC using FLETC supplied ammo.

olstyn
08-30-2016, 11:48 PM
Amazing how simple math demonstrates that DHS's ammo purchasing is pretty much directly in line with its ammo usage. :P

hufnagel
08-31-2016, 06:39 AM
Doesn't negate the fact that without consideration or debate the ATF just added another Poll Tax to the price of certain ammunition components. The larger the company the more they'll be able to absorb the new costs, but I'd expect to see a rise in pricing across the board for new ammo, reman'ed ammo, powder, etc. Obviously some aspects of the industry will see more of an impact than others.

joshs
08-31-2016, 06:54 AM
I haven't read through the whole thread, so some of this might be repeating things already discussed.

There are very few manufacturers in the U.S. who actually work with nitrocellulose to turn it into smokeless powder for small arms. I only know of two: Radford Arsenal and St. Mark's Powder.

ATF's determination would have primarily affected storage of wetted nitrocellulose because "explosives" are subject to special storage requirements under federal law. This obviously would have raised costs, but it's unclear how much. Transportation is covered by DoT, and their regulation governing Hazmat transport provides for substantially different treatment of wetted nitrocellulose.

As far as I know, ATF is now claiming that the newsletter was a mistake and Radford and SMP will be able to continue operations as usual.

TR675
08-31-2016, 07:34 AM
Josh, for gods sake man, we were all about to get off and running with a good panic. Don't ruin our fun


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Luke
08-31-2016, 07:46 AM
Looks like what josh is saying is that the ATF was doing a test run to see how the American people would react to such laws. Next they will ban bullets and then guns and then NATO troops will storm our houses killing all who refuse to turn in their guns!! Not today ATF!



Molan Lobby!!!!!!

JDM
08-31-2016, 07:51 AM
I haven't read through the whole thread, so some of this might be repeating things already discussed.

There are very few manufacturers in the U.S. who actually work with nitrocellulose to turn it into smokeless powder for small arms. I only know of two: Radford Arsenal and St. Mark's Powder.

ATF's determination would have primarily affected storage of wetted nitrocellulose because "explosives" are subject to special storage requirements under federal law. This obviously would have raised costs, but it's unclear how much. Transportation is covered by DoT, and their regulation governing Hazmat transport provides for substantially different treatment of wetted nitrocellulose.

As far as I know, ATF is now claiming that the newsletter was a mistake and Radford and SMP will be able to continue operations as usual.

I'm so glad you participate here.

Chris Rhines
08-31-2016, 08:09 AM
Thank you, Josh.

Jim Watson
08-31-2016, 08:16 AM
That's good news, Josh.

But while we are here, I noticed that the regulation was to apply to wet (why say "wetted"?) nitrocellulose containing "more than 12.6% nitrogen." I was recently looking at a MSDS for one or another brand of smokeless powder and it was specified to be made from nitrocellulose at 12.6% nitrogen. So the reg would not apply to the nitrocellulose going into the process. I did once read of controlling the degree of nitration in the finished powder by blending high and low N lots of nitrocellulose, so if the regulation stuck, half the supply would be restricted until mixed. If they still do it that way, which I do not know.

I figure that is done internally to the powder mill and doubt they are shipping even "wetted" nitrocellulose around. Wet nitrocellulose of over 13% N - commonly known as guncotton - was once used for demolitions, detonated by a small amount of very sensitive dry guncotton.

LittleLebowski
08-31-2016, 09:38 AM
I haven't read through the whole thread, so some of this might be repeating things already discussed.

There are very few manufacturers in the U.S. who actually work with nitrocellulose to turn it into smokeless powder for small arms. I only know of two: Radford Arsenal and St. Mark's Powder.

ATF's determination would have primarily affected storage of wetted nitrocellulose because "explosives" are subject to special storage requirements under federal law. This obviously would have raised costs, but it's unclear how much. Transportation is covered by DoT, and their regulation governing Hazmat transport provides for substantially different treatment of wetted nitrocellulose.

As far as I know, ATF is now claiming that the newsletter was a mistake and Radford and SMP will be able to continue operations as usual.

Whew, I was going to waste this month's VA blood money check on powder instead of booze :)

Failure2Stop
08-31-2016, 09:54 AM
Whew, I was going to waste this month's VA blood money check on powder instead of booze :)

How much you wanna bet that online ammo and powder sales had a significant increase last night?

CCT125US
08-31-2016, 10:57 AM
How much you wanna bet that online ammo and powder sales had a significant increase last night?

I am sure they did. Thing is the industry newsletter came out in June. It would interesting to study the cycle of panic and it's effect on people's buying behavior. That would make for interesting discussion.

RJ
08-31-2016, 02:50 PM
Wait, so now you guys are saying I *don't* need to buy ammo!?

Malamute
08-31-2016, 02:57 PM
Wait, so now you guys are saying I *don't* need to buy ammo!?

I doubt anyone would say that, its just the mindset while doing it that matters. Having the smug self satisfied feeling of having beat the panicking hoards has to be replaced with the smug self satisfied feeling of being wisely prepared so panics don't affect you much.

joshs
08-31-2016, 03:00 PM
ATF is officially delaying any changes on nitrocellulose: https://www.atf.gov/file/109341/download

BehindBlueI's
08-31-2016, 03:03 PM
ATF is officially delaying any changes on nitrocellulose: https://www.atf.gov/file/109341/download

Thanks for the actual information.

Trooper224
08-31-2016, 04:32 PM
Shocked face over here. :o

Corse
09-01-2016, 07:39 AM
After reading all that stuff and seeing it was a couple months old I decided I didn't need to buy any more ammo, then I remembered the election is coming up and I needed to buy more ammo. So I bought it.

hufnagel
09-01-2016, 08:30 AM
i'm running out of room to store more ammo.

justcor
09-01-2016, 08:41 AM
ATF is officially delaying any changes on nitrocellulose: https://www.atf.gov/file/109341/download

A delay does not mean all clear.

August 31, 2016
Nitrocellulose
- Update

ATF’s June 2016 Explosives Industry Newsletter included a brief discussion of Nitrocellulose,
and attempted to clarify the circumstances under which wetted Nitrocellulose is considered a
high explosive under 27 CFR, Part 555. As with all explosives, ATF’s
focus is on the potential public safety risks associated with materials that can be misused or diverted to unlawful
purposes. Subsequent contact from industry members who import, transport, store or employ
wetted Nitrocellulose in the production of ammunition, however, has brought to our attention
issues that were not fully addressed in the Newsletter and require further consultation and
consideration with the industry. Accordingly, ATF has and will conduct further industry
outreach concerning wetted Nitrocellulose. In the interim, previously authorized industry
practices concerning wetted Nitrocellulose will not be affected.

joshs
09-01-2016, 09:38 AM
A delay does not mean all clear.

August 31, 2016
Nitrocellulose
- Update

ATF’s June 2016 Explosives Industry Newsletter included a brief discussion of Nitrocellulose,
and attempted to clarify the circumstances under which wetted Nitrocellulose is considered a
high explosive under 27 CFR, Part 555. As with all explosives, ATF’s
focus is on the potential public safety risks associated with materials that can be misused or diverted to unlawful
purposes. Subsequent contact from industry members who import, transport, store or employ
wetted Nitrocellulose in the production of ammunition, however, has brought to our attention
issues that were not fully addressed in the Newsletter and require further consultation and
consideration with the industry. Accordingly, ATF has and will conduct further industry
outreach concerning wetted Nitrocellulose. In the interim, previously authorized industry
practices concerning wetted Nitrocellulose will not be affected.

It does as far as there can ever be "all clear" when dealing with regulatory agencies. If they choose to revisit, we'll fight, but until that happens, this is the best possible solution.

Malamute
09-01-2016, 10:07 AM
i'm running out of room to store more ammo.

May be an indication you need a yard shed.




So you can get some of the less used and less important furniture and stuff out of the house to make room. :)

hufnagel
09-01-2016, 11:28 AM
May be an indication you need a yard shed.




So you can get some of the less used and less important furniture and stuff out of the house to make room. :)

Funny you should mention... yard clean up involves me finishing up a gravel and railroad tie pad, so I can get the first of 3 possible "sheds" brought in. First one is small... only 16'W 36'D 11.5'H (at the peak.) :D

Unobtanium
09-01-2016, 11:46 AM
I know this isn't a "good" answer, but most M193 and M855, and 9mm FMJ that doesn't suck is imported. That should be some solace, at least.

Tamara
09-01-2016, 01:36 PM
Looks like what josh is saying is that the ATF was doing a test run to see how the American people would react to such laws. Next they will ban bullets and then guns and then NATO troops will storm our houses killing all who refuse to turn in their guns!! Not today ATF!



Molan Lobby!!!!!!

*snif* I love you, man.

Tamara
09-01-2016, 01:38 PM
How much you wanna bet that online ammo and powder sales had a significant increase last night?

No bet. The American gun owner is an easily stampeded herd animal.

From the Bookface:

If you (generic you, here) are shooting regularly and you have been shooting since before December 2012, and you do not have at least a six month supply of consumables for your regularly scheduled practice/matches/classes/recreation, I have not one morsel of pity for you.
And if you've been shooting since before the Great Panics of '94, '99, '08, AND '12 and don't have a comfortable supply set back? You are probably not as smart as you think you are.

EDIT: I just noticed I forgot the Panic of '01.

Tamara
09-01-2016, 02:15 PM
As someone pointed out on FB, "Explosives" is part of the BATFEIEIO's purview, and it's a certainty that someone there got a rocket asking them what we were doing to prevent something like this occurrence last year (http://gbtimes.com/china/remembering-2015-tianjin-explosions).

CCT125US
09-01-2016, 02:26 PM
As someone pointed out on FB, "Explosives" is part of the BATFEIEIO's purview, and it's a certainty that someone there got a rocket asking them what we were doing to prevent something like this occurrence last year (http://gbtimes.com/china/remembering-2015-tianjin-explosions).

Oh come on, we all know that was a result of a HAARP strike....

"ducks back under tin foil"

Malamute
09-01-2016, 08:34 PM
Funny you should mention... yard clean up involves me finishing up a gravel and railroad tie pad, so I can get the first of 3 possible "sheds" brought in. First one is small... only 16'W 36'D 11.5'H (at the peak.) :D

That's bigger than my cabin I live in.

Outbuildings really save the day!

RJ
09-01-2016, 09:32 PM
I doubt anyone would say that, its just the mindset while doing it that matters. Having the smug self satisfied feeling of having beat the panicking hoards has to be replaced with the smug self satisfied feeling of being wisely prepared so panics don't affect you much.

Ok, I don't see a "no" there, so off to www.sgammo.com I go.

Mooooooooooo. :cool:

Malamute
09-01-2016, 09:41 PM
Or, as a wise friend once said "you have to buy it all up before the hoarders get it".

Hambo
09-02-2016, 08:54 AM
i'm running out of room to store more ammo.

Throw out your furniture and sit on cases of ammo.

hufnagel
09-02-2016, 09:15 AM
Throw out your furniture and sit on cases of ammo.

you know, most of my furniture is This End Up stuff.... I *could* come up with ways of hiding ammo in it I bet. Problem is the wife would discover it first time she vacuums.
"Honey! Why the $_)#$)(# is the couch so $)(#$# heavy!!!"

:dead: