Great Interview with Todd Hodnett

[Chance]

A lengthy interview in Recoil Magazine (http://www.recoilweb.com/todd-hodnett-the-long-range-cowboy-108460.html). Here's some nuggets, but definitely read the whole thing.


Which calibers do you think we’ll see more of?

TH: The 300 Norma is an amazing caliber. I was a big fan of .338 until I shot a 300 Norma, and now that’s all I shoot for long range. The .260 Remington, I think you’re going to see a huge jump with it coming up in the future. We’re already seeing a lot of players moving in that direction, and a lot of venders making better ammo.

If I could only have two guns in my safe, they would be: a 300 Norma and a .260 LaRue. The .260 would replace all my M4s and all my .308s. It’s a great caliber because it’ll go transonic at 1,000, so it’s a caliber that can do everything an M4 can do all the way up to nearly a 300 Win Mag. It’s ease of shooting, and no recoil makes it great. A lot of the competition world already knows about .260 and 6.5 Creed, so the .260 — I think you’ll really see it coming into its own in the near future.

The 300 Norma is the best long-range caliber you can get into today. I think 300 Norma will take over and rule the long-range, hunting, and military markets for the next decade.

The 300 Win Mag, is a weapon system I was not originally impressed with. But, it’s going to make a resurgence because of the .230 Berger, you get the capability of a .338 Lapua. And, it’s what we call a Walmart gun. You can go to any store in the United States and pick up 300 Win Mag ammo to go shoot pigs at 200 meters for when you don’t want to shoot your good Berger ammo.


What would you suggest for someone looking to buy his first long-range rifle?

TH: There are two different applications: bolt gun and semi-auto.

For a bolt gun, you have affordable and top of the line. For affordable, the Tikka T3 Tactical. It’s one of the best rifles you’ll lay your hands on. It’s a phenomenal little gun. It’s an entry-level gun, but I’m not for sure it’s not as accurate as some of the more expensive rifles you could buy. For top of the line, a Surgeon Rifle. I own several Surgeons, and love them — never had a problem with them. And, Surgeon is a great company.

For the gas guns, or semi-auto, I wouldn’t buy a gas gun that isn’t a LaRue. LaRue Tactical is by far the best in the marketplace.


So are you saying you don’t load bipods anymore?

TH: If I’m shooting close, like 300 meters, or movers, I do load my bipods heavy because doing so will not pull me off the target. But, if I’m doing 800-meter head shots, I will load bipods as consistent to when I zeroed, trued, and gathered my information out to those distances. It’s not an always or never when referring to bipods. It just depends.

When I shoot long range, the process for loading my bipods is:


I pull the weapon system into my shoulder
Load the bipods with my shoulder
Once my NPA is established and my crosshairs are on the target,
I then start loading to the target,
And, as I load to the target, as soon as my bipods start to roll,
I hold the pressure that I have at that point,
And pull the trigger.


What you’re looking for is being consistent with the weapon system.

[DocGKR]

Much truth...

[Hauptmann]

Good info. I wonder how he feels about the 6.5 Lapua. Seems like a much better cartridge for precision loading, particularly with the super long range bullets at 140gr plus. The .260 Remington suffers from trying to keep the COAL within spec, while at the same time trying to prevent the bullet ogive from sinking too far into the case mouth during seating.

[SecondsCount]

I really like Todd's approach to things. The truing principle is changing the way a lot of people treat the transonic stage.


Good info. I wonder how he feels about the 6.5 Lapua. Seems like a much better cartridge for precision loading, particularly with the super long range bullets at 140gr plus. The .260 Remington suffers from trying to keep the COAL within spec, while at the same time trying to prevent the bullet ogive from sinking too far into the case mouth during seating.

They all have their pros and cons. I'm happy with my 6.5x47L but that it because I like the inherent precision. OAL is another good reason to consider it but the cost of brass and the sharp shoulder may be a reason to choose the 260. The 6.5C seems to be gaining ground pretty fast as well and I think has the best of both worlds.

[DocGKR]

Probably need to read between the lines--I suspect some of the folks ToddH shoots with are moving from .308 to .260 Rem in shorter gas guns shooting only factory ammo, with larger bolt guns being being reserved for whichever magnum (.300 WM, .300 NM, .338 LM) the organization issues.

In an ideal world and free state, I'd likely sell all my other rifles and get a couple of .308 or .260 Rem SR25/AR10 style rifles and a good .300 WM or NM bolt action and call it a day.

[BWT]

Is there a specific 6.5/.260 variation that you see taking over things as the new predominant rifle caliber?

It seems that 5.56mm is discussed less. We've seen 6.8 SPC and 6.5 G. But it seems that .260 is somewhat staying around in one variation or another.

God Bless,

Brandon

[Chance]

Is there a specific 6.5/.260 variation that you see taking over things as the new predominant rifle caliber?

It seems that 5.56mm is discussed less. We've seen 6.8 SPC and 6.5 G. But it seems that .260 is somewhat staying around in one variation or another.


That was discussed a bit back in the .264 USA thread (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?21098-264-USA-(spin-off-from-FBI-Selection-Process-thread)).

[shane45]

The "nuggets" seem a little late to the game. And Im not sure I agree with the assessments. I think the big reason for 6.5 Creedmoor success is it has tapped into a good sized market of non reloaders that like precision shooting and they have made match ammo available at tolerable prices. .260 is way behind in that regard and would have a lot of ground to close to catch up. If you do reload, your probably going to go for the 6.5x47 so you can use Lapua brass. Larue, best in the market? I don't share that opinion. I currently own a Larue OBR, SR25 and a GA Precision. As for magnums, I don't think the .338LM will be dethroned anytime soon. People entrenched in ELR are very beholding to Lapua brass.

[ranger]

I recently bought a 6.5Creedmoor rather than a 260 because there seems to be a much better of 6.5CM factory loads available for target and hunting. No knock on 260 and I reload but I wanted availability of more choices for factory ammo. Great article - I would love to take a class from him!

[GJM]

I liked the picture of him in front of his Aviat Husky on 35 inch Bushwheels with the MT prop and Airglas cargo pod. We got the original STC for that pod on our aircraft.

[shane45]

From the precision rifle blog 2012, 2013, and 2015 data on caliber choice amongst the top competitors.


http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/10/12/best-rifle-caliber/

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/12/17/best-rifle-caliber-what-the-pros-use/

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/09/07/rifle-cartridges-what-the-pros-use/

Found this graph showing from 2012 to 2015.

http://2poqx8tjzgi65olp24je4x4n.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Most-Popular-Cartridges-Over-Past-4-Years1.png

[Hauptmann]

Interesting on the cartridge popularity. At least when it comes to the 6.5mm, I can see why the Lapua cartridge is gaining in popularity over the others given its design characteristics. It is just a plain better cartridge design than the .260 or the CM.

[Clusterfrack]

.260 Rem using Lapua brass works great for me. I have no problems loading 142 SMK to fit AIAE mags.

[TiroFijo]

What is the barrel life of the 300 NM compared to the 338 LM?

[spinmove_]

This may be a dumb question, but what exactly is Todd referring to when he states cartridges are going "transonic"?

Also, what sorts of algorithms is he building to "true" the cartridges that they're shooting?

[Chance]

This may be a dumb question, but what exactly is Todd referring to when he states cartridges are going "transonic"?

"Transonic" is when the round is transitioning between supersonic and subsonic speeds. It's typically where the trajectory of the bullet can start doing some wonky things.

[michael1778]

This may be a dumb question, but what exactly is Todd referring to when he states cartridges are going "transonic"?

Also, what sorts of algorithms is he building to "true" the cartridges that they're shooting?

OK FNG (that would be me) can actually provide some real expertise on this issue. I feel very good about being able to provide something back to the community that is giving so much to me!!

Transonic flows are ones with a mix of slightly supersonic and high-speed subsonic flows. How does this actually happen? Without trying to cram at least two semesters of fluid mechanics into a forum post, let me say that when we talk about the speed of a bullet we are *not* talking about the speed of the air flow at every point immediately around the bullet. Instead, it is the relative speed of the bullet compared to the air fairly far upstream of the bullet. If you look carefully at the flow around a supersonic object you will discover that the local speed at different points near the object can be slower or faster than the far-away apparent flow speed (freestream velocity). Early in the flight of a rifle bullet, the speeds are all well in the supersonic range (Mach numbers of all the flow regions, or at least the vast majority of them, are greater than 1....therefore, supersonic). Near the tip they are slightly slower as the flow compresses around the nose. Then the flow expands and accelerates coming along the constant diameter bearing surface then even more so at the boat tail then it's a mess of expansions and turbulence immediately around the bullet base. The base of the bullet has the "messiest" and most chaotic flow region.

As something slows down from a healthy supersonic freestream velocity (and nearly all small regions around the bullet still have supersonic flows), a predominantly supersonic flow begins to have transitions into a mixed one with mildly supersonic and mildly subsonic flows. Effects of turbulence can be stronger now. Also, different parts of the flow "downstream" along the bullet length can communicate back upstream to the forward part of the bullet flows. This is where aerodynamics PhDs are churned out by the truckload. Shocks can be unstable and move around in response to all the flow interactions. It's unsteady and messy. This is what I think can induce strange bullet motion and upset. As bullets get slower, I would expect them to settle into a subsonic but less chaotic flow regime. Pure supersonic and pure subsonic flows don't have all the drama of transonic flows. Transonic flows have local regions of both super and subsonic.

If you want to see this for yourself in a high-speed subsonic passenger aircraft, you have to sit looking over the wing and have the sun in the right position overhead. I think certain humidity at altitude can help. The plane is going less than Mach 1 and is considered generally subsonic, but the flow over the top of the wing accelerates and can locally reach sonic speed (Mach number = 1) or slightly faster. A small shock is formed in the shifting region on the top of the wing and you can see it "dancing" fore and aft along the wing. I have only seen that once that I can recall. It's subtle but I finally saw it.

OK, I hope that actually helped and didn't hurt reader understanding.

I'm an astronautical engineer by training and had an undergrad in aerospace. My fluids background is more with very high-speed flows (hypersonics and re-entry). My strongest suit is systems engineering, composites, space safety, and fundamental orbital mechanics. I don't mean to portray myself as an aerodynamicist, but my coursework and personal experience should be enough to address the issue to this level.

[DocGKR]

Good commentary.

[Unobtanium]

So....bullets can become unstable or remain stable during transonic phases due to their designs and where/how these pockets of supersonic air form near their various surfaces? Kind-of like a plane going through turbulence....but a super sexy plane may not feel as bumpy?

[spinmove_]

OK FNG (that would be me) can actually provide some real expertise on this issue. I feel very good about being able to provide something back to the community that is giving so much to me!!

Transonic flows are ones with a mix of slightly supersonic and high-speed subsonic flows. How does this actually happen? Without trying to cram at least two semesters of fluid mechanics into a forum post, let me say that when we talk about the speed of a bullet we are *not* talking about the speed of the air flow at every point immediately around the bullet. Instead, it is the relative speed of the bullet compared to the air fairly far upstream of the bullet. If you look carefully at the flow around a supersonic object you will discover that the local speed at different points near the object can be slower or faster than the far-away apparent flow speed (freestream velocity). Early in the flight of a rifle bullet, the speeds are all well in the supersonic range (Mach numbers of all the flow regions, or at least the vast majority of them, are greater than 1....therefore, supersonic). Near the tip they are slightly slower as the flow compresses around the nose. Then the flow expands and accelerates coming along the constant diameter bearing surface then even more so at the boat tail then it's a mess of expansions and turbulence immediately around the bullet base. The base of the bullet has the "messiest" and most chaotic flow region.

As something slows down from a healthy supersonic freestream velocity (and nearly all small regions around the bullet still have supersonic flows), a predominantly supersonic flow begins to have transitions into a mixed one with mildly supersonic and mildly subsonic flows. Effects of turbulence can be stronger now. Also, different parts of the flow "downstream" along the bullet length can communicate back upstream to the forward part of the bullet flows. This is where aerodynamics PhDs are churned out by the truckload. Shocks can be unstable and move around in response to all the flow interactions. It's unsteady and messy. This is what I think can induce strange bullet motion and upset. As bullets get slower, I would expect them to settle into a subsonic but less chaotic flow regime. Pure supersonic and pure subsonic flows don't have all the drama of transonic flows. Transonic flows have local regions of both super and subsonic.

If you want to see this for yourself in a high-speed subsonic passenger aircraft, you have to sit looking over the wing and have the sun in the right position overhead. I think certain humidity at altitude can help. The plane is going less than Mach 1 and is considered generally subsonic, but the flow over the top of the wing accelerates and can locally reach sonic speed (Mach number = 1) or slightly faster. A small shock is formed in the shifting region on the top of the wing and you can see it "dancing" fore and aft along the wing. I have only seen that once that I can recall. It's subtle but I finally saw it.

OK, I hope that actually helped and didn't hurt reader understanding.

I'm an astronautical engineer by training and had an undergrad in aerospace. My fluids background is more with very high-speed flows (hypersonics and re-entry). My strongest suit is systems engineering, composites, space safety, and fundamental orbital mechanics. I don't mean to portray myself as an aerodynamicist, but my coursework and personal experience should be enough to address the issue to this level.

Wow! Thank you very much for that. So basically it's a state of airspeed with which the air around the bullet is in a heavily transitionary state which becomes fairly chaotic and can exert some pretty weird forces on the bullet which can alter its trajectory and/or flight stability. That seems to make sense. I guess I didn't know such a state existed.

[RoyGBiv]

From the precision rifle blog 2012, 2013, and 2015 data on caliber choice amongst the top competitors.


http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/10/12/best-rifle-caliber/

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/12/17/best-rifle-caliber-what-the-pros-use/

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/09/07/rifle-cartridges-what-the-pros-use/

Found this graph showing from 2012 to 2015.

http://2poqx8tjzgi65olp24je4x4n.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Most-Popular-Cartridges-Over-Past-4-Years1.png

This chart seems to go against the claim made in the OP about the increasing popularity of. 260 Rem....... ?

Great thread!

[DocGKR]

.260 Rem is increasing in popularity with certain end-users who shoot lots of factory ammo through semi-autos.

6.5 Creedmoor probably has greater popularity with civilian shooters who don't reload, while 6.5x47 is likely more popular with civilian shooters who reload and use precision bolt guns.

[OlongJohnson]

<Lots of cool geek stuff.>

Your detailed commentary supports and unpacks what is pretty basic knowledge in the long range shooting community - groups disperse widely if the projectile gets into the trans-sonic range before reaching the target. It is also understood in short-range, low-buck 22LR rimfire circles - as a general rule, if you want accuracy at 100 yards, start subsonic, because most 12XX-fps loads will be trans-sonic by 100 yards. Lots of higher-velocity 22LR loads are very accurate at 50 yards in certain rifles but not so much at 100.

Which is not to diminish your contribution in any way - I enjoyed reading and found it helpful. Thanks!

I found .260 has a lot more load data around for a wider range of hunting bullets than its competitors, where the information is focused on hitting long-range targets with less focus on terminal performance. Depending on your use, and if you're a hand loader, that may be relevant. Also, Tikkas come in .260, and some people really like Tikkas.

[shane45]

.260 Rem is increasing in popularity with certain end-users who shoot lots of factory ammo through semi-autos.

6.5 Creedmoor probably has greater popularity with civilian shooters who don't reload, while 6.5x47 is likely more popular with civilian shooters who reload and use precision bolt guns.

I think its the other way around. 6.5 seems to be gaining favor in the semi's as its seems to feed a little better and you can load long much better than you can with the 260.

[shane45]

Now what really has my gears spinning is the 230 Berger in a 300WSM in a semi!

[drummer]

I think its the other way around. 6.5 seems to be gaining favor in the semi's as its seems to feed a little better and you can load long much better than you can with the 260.

6.5 Creedmoor may be gaining popularity with civiliains but reading between the lines of what DocGKR is saying, military unuts who can have whatever they want are purchasing and shooting quantities of .260. That may very well influence the civilian market at some point.

Theres a reason why Larue is now making .260s and not 6.5 Creedmoors. JackL of Knights posted on arfcom, i believe, that .260 was better suited for autoloaders when shooting large volumes, or something to that effect.

[Clusterfrack]

There's not a huge difference among the three 6.5's, but I prefer .260 for most of the reasons discussed below. Also, my understanding is that .260 feeds a bit more reliably than the steeper shoulder cases.
http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-shootout-260-6.5x47-6.5-creedmoor/?p=5

[shane45]

6.5 Creedmoor may be gaining popularity with civiliains but reading between the lines of what DocGKR is saying, military unuts who can have whatever they want are purchasing and shooting quantities of .260. That may very well influence the civilian market at some point.

Theres a reason why Larue is now making .260s and not 6.5 Creedmoors. JackL of Knights posted on arfcom, i believe, that .260 was better suited for autoloaders when shooting large volumes, or something to that effect.

I don't want to even go down the incestuous road of procurement. Ive seen first hand mil procurement violate their own RFP's to award the favorite. Define a quantity? Units have played with lots of things. Grendel 6.5's even from what I understand. But I didn't see any .260 mention in CSASS. If your shooting large volumes(belt fed?), your probably not terribly interested in accuracy. If you shoot a .260 rapidly you will kill that barrel much more quickly. My buddy learned that the hard way when he smoked his at around 700 rounds. Im on my second .260 gasser. I picked up on the .260 about 8 years ago. If I was doing it today it would be a 6.5 cm. Most that shoot gas guns have moved over to 6.5cm. The military LR guys pay attention to what is going on in the civy competition world (and they compete here too). Maybe some know some secret I am unaware of, but I have been watching the military follow civy trends in LR shooting for 14 years now. There are mechanical advantages to 6.5cm in a gas gun. So that where I think it WOULD land if it were going anywhere but I don't think they are going to deviate from 308. Its my opinion that they are moving from 308 bolt guns to 308 gas guns for the urban environments they are operating in and going magnum in AO's that require distance.

[DocGKR]

"Its my opinion that they are moving from 308 bolt guns to 308 gas guns for the urban environments they are operating in and going magnum in AO's that require distance."

That is definitely what began happening about 10 years ago.


"There are mechanical advantages to 6.5cm in a gas gun. So that where I think it WOULD land if it were going anywhere but I don't think they are going to deviate from 308."

For the conventional military, that is likely true for at least the short term...for other folks, perhaps not so much.

[RoyGBiv]

There's not a huge difference among the three 6.5's, but I prefer .260 for most of the reasons discussed below. Also, my understanding is that .260 feeds a bit more reliably than the steeper shoulder cases.
http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-shootout-260-6.5x47-6.5-creedmoor/?p=5

Cabelas had 4 lonely boxes of 260 yesterday. And half an aisle of 308.
Sgammo doesn't list any 260 at all.

As a non-reloader, investing in a 260 rifle seems unwise.

[Clusterfrack]

Cabelas had 4 lonely boxes of 260 yesterday. And half an aisle of 308.
Sgammo doesn't list any 260 at all.

As a non-reloader, investing in a 260 rifle seems unwise.

Agreed.

[SecondsCount]

Cabelas had 4 lonely boxes of 260 yesterday. And half an aisle of 308.
Sgammo doesn't list any 260 at all.

As a non-reloader, investing in a 260 rifle seems unwise.

If you are going to be playing the long range game, then you are either have a lot of expendable financial resources, or you reload.

Shooting 1 or 2 boxes a month would be good for hunting inside 300 or maybe 400 yards but for shots beyond 600, you are going to want to shoot at least 500 rounds a year to keep your skills up.

[Crews]

I chose Creedmoor for cheap match grade AMax ammo, and it consistently shot half-moa out of my rifle.

Much to my consternation, Hornady discontinued the cheap match grade Creedmoor ammo, and now has a "newer, more better" version that is no cheaper than anything else.

Am I missing something?


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