45 Colt, 44 Special-educate me

[Eastex]

I just want to know more. I know they both have long histories, I'll start with 45 Colt since I think I've learned a little more about 44 Special.
It seems like 45 Colt is currently offered in two flavors, powder puff Cowboy action loads and bear killing monsters. What was/is a good LE or self defense type loading for 45? In a substantially heavy enough revolver how would you describe or compare the recoil? In a proper loading and revolver would it still be something you would consider practical or at least semi practical? Specifically for a larger guy whose daily clothes are capable of concealing large firearms and who is also a big fan of suspenders?
My 44 Special question revolves mostly around new production guns. Do you think we will ever see new double action revolvers purposely designed and built for the Special from S&W or Ruger?
I enjoy looking at the older models you guys have and I'd love to own one. That said , I'd really like to scratch a big bore itch and by scratch it I mean shoot the crap out of it. I know ammo is expensive for both but that plays into one of my other interests. I really like reloading and revolvers are just made for it. No chasing spent brass all over the place!



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[Tamara]

My 44 Special question revolves mostly around new production guns. Do you think we will ever see new double action revolvers purposely designed and built for the Special from S&W or Ruger?

Highly doubtful. I loves me some .44 Spl, but it's a tiny niche caliber that's unlikely to see much of a renaissance outside of people who want to shoot something different at SASS matches.

[Hambo]

Reloading either is simple. If you load cast bullets the cost is not bad at all.

I think what's currently out there is what we'll have for revolvers. Meaning runs of retro models but nothing new.

Nyeti has posted his duty ammo but I can't remember what it was. Maybe Silvertips?

I don't really get your recoil question. Cowboy loads are mild, but if you load it like a .44 mag you get matching recoil.

My favorite N frame holster was a Kramer belt scabbard on a good belt. It's a comfortable rig for all day carry.

[Stephanie B]

There's some guy on TFL (https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=577910) who says that a new mid-frame .44 is in the works. (Post #4)

Whether or not there's anything to that...... [shrug]

[Rex G]

Buffalo Bore is a source for .45 Colt ammunition that is neither "powder puff" nor "monsters."

An N-Frame revolver is an N-frame revolver. I carried my S&W Model 58 (.41 Magnum) on my skinny frame, concealed, from 1985 to about 1990, when it was also my duty sixgun. I finally admitted to myself than an N-Frame is just a bit too large for my hands, or, to more precise, the reach from backstrap to trigger face was too far for my medium-length fingers, and the skimpy-sized grip panels, necessary to ensure I had a good grip on the weapon, worsened the cumulative effects of recoil.

Back to the ammo: If you believe in JHP, Buffalo Bore loads with Gold Dots. If you prefer traditional lead, that is available, too. Plus, if I recall correctly, another Buffalo Bore .45 Colt load uses a full-wadcutter bullet, for those of us who prefer to shoot bad guys in the head.

I may return to carrying a big-bore revolver, at least some of the time, as my Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan, with an original-style, pre-Hogue GP100 grip installed, does allow me to properly reach the trigger while the grip is properly centered, and that grip is the best factory grip, ever, on any handgun, for my hands.

[BillSWPA]

Charter Arms offers 5 shot, small frame .44 specials. I have no personal experience with them.

[Trooper224]

.45 Colt ammo. Looks like a couple of good HP loads there from Federal and Winchester.
http://www.sgammo.com/catalog/pistol-ammo-sale/45-long-colt-ammo

.44 Special
http://www.sgammo.com/catalog/pistol-ammo-sale/44-special-ammo

Like Tamara, I don't think you'll see any new guns offered in either round that are suitable for self defense. It's a shame as both are excellent for that. During the 20th century, in the pre magnum era, the .44 Special was one of "the" law enforcement rounds. There's nothing finer than an S&W Hand Ejector or Model 24 in .44 Special, or a Colt SAA in .45 Colt. Years ago, I had a stainless S&W Mountain Gun in .45 Colt. I miss it.

[okie john]

I just want to know more. I know they both have long histories, I'll start with 45 Colt since I think I've learned a little more about 44 Special.
It seems like 45 Colt is currently offered in two flavors, powder puff Cowboy action loads and bear killing monsters. What was/is a good LE or self defense type loading for 45? In a substantially heavy enough revolver how would you describe or compare the recoil? In a proper loading and revolver would it still be something you would consider practical or at least semi practical? Specifically for a larger guy whose daily clothes are capable of concealing large firearms and who is also a big fan of suspenders?
My 44 Special question revolves mostly around new production guns. Do you think we will ever see new double action revolvers purposely designed and built for the Special from S&W or Ruger?
I enjoy looking at the older models you guys have and I'd love to own one. That said , I'd really like to scratch a big bore itch and by scratch it I mean shoot the crap out of it. I know ammo is expensive for both but that plays into one of my other interests. I really like reloading and revolvers are just made for it. No chasing spent brass all over the place!


The original loads for both cartridges were about like a 45 ACP +P, and in a good revolver both are still excellent choices. The problem is finding a good revolver. There’s nothing wrong with the various N-frame Smiths, but even though they’re the among smallest big-bore revolvers available, they’re still big by today’s standards. Whether we’ll see new designs will depend on how gun laws change in the future.

In revolvers of similar weight and design, the two will run neck and neck in terms of recoil, which can run from light to brutal.

The 44 Magnum was developed as a sort of +P+ 44 Special, and in my book it’s the most useful of the three. It can take 44 Special ammo, and you can load it almost as hot as the hottest 45 Colt loads if you want to go that route.

Handloading makes all of this a lot simpler. Get a boatload of cast 250-grain slugs for either one plus a keg of Unique and you’ll be good to go.


Okie John

[Eastex]

Thanks for all the replies. I didn't word my recoil question very well but the analogy to 45ACP +P was what I was trying to find out.
Thanks for the Firing Line link,
"July 2016
There's a new mid-frame 5-shot .44 Special version of an existing DA revolver in development.
Might be 2-3 months before announced, possibly sooner."
If this is true I wonder what it could be? The S&W 69? I know that Ruger could probably sell me a 5 shot GP100 44 special with a concealable length barrel pretty easy.



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[That Guy]

What was/is a good LE or self defense type loading for 45? In a substantially heavy enough revolver how would you describe or compare the recoil? In a proper loading and revolver would it still be something you would consider practical or at least semi practical?

I have a Mountain Gun in .45 Colt. Last year it was wearing VZ Grips round butt grips. I shot an IDPA Classifier using 230gr bullets loaded to a power factor of... I want to say 175? Thereabouts, at least. The recoil tore a small piece of skin off my thumb and made not flinching on Stage 3 a real challenge. This year I used Pachmayr presentation grips and 250gr loads launched at a full 900 fps - a proper full charge round in other words. Ended up shooting about 120 of those during that day and had absolutely zero trouble.

My point being that grips have a huge effect on recoil management, in my humble definitely non-expert opinion.

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[Lon]

My 44 Special question revolves mostly around new production guns. Do you think we will ever see new double action revolvers purposely designed and built for the Special from S&W or Ruger?

Have you looked at the S&W Model 69? Not the dedicated 44 special, but a L frame 44 mag that will take 44 special.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_827559_-1_757769_757767_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

[Dagga Boy]

I carried a .45 Colt revolver as my first duty gun for several years. I worked numerous officer involved shootings with them. I never remember anything but single round immediate incapacitation of bad guys no matter where they were hit. We used both Federal and Winchester 225 gr. Loads. The .225 Silvertip gave outstanding performance with the caveats that we were shooting SoCal clothed bad guys in close quarters. I love .45 Colt...very low pressure, low recoil in self defense loadings, easy to shoot, the round is one of those things that just works as a good balance of getting great performance without having to drive the bullets at high speeds. For animals...you can do that as well with both .45 Colt or 454 Casull driving heavy bullets at higher velocities, but I shoot that stuff only out of Ruger revolvers.

In .44 Spl, I carried both. charter arms custom bulldog and a S&W 296 for many years in a back up, off duty, and as my mountain biking gun (296). Used CCI 200 gr. Hollowpoints almost exclusively. For the model 24's and others, the Keith bullet loaded stuff is a long established favorite of fans of the caliber.

[BillSWPA]

I have a Mountain Gun in .45 Colt. Last year it was wearing VZ Grips round butt grips. I shot an IDPA Classifier using 230gr bullets loaded to a power factor of... I want to say 175? Thereabouts, at least. The recoil tore a small piece of skin off my thumb and made not flinching on Stage 3 a real challenge. This year I used Pachmayr presentation grips and 250gr loads launched at a full 900 fps - a proper full charge round in other words. Ended up shooting about 120 of those during that day and had absolutely zero trouble.

My point being that grips have a huge effect on recoil management, in my humble definitely non-expert opinion.

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I completely agree. The grip should:

1) Cover the backstrap with rubber.

2) Provide a good grip for the fingers around the front strap.

3) Have a relatively convex rear surface to direct recoil into the palm of the hand rather than a concave surface at the top of the backstrap that puts the recoil in the web of the hand. This must be balanced with keeping trigger reach correct.

Pachmayr Presentation grips meet all of this criteria.

[Eastex]

I posted over on the Ruger forum about a possible GP100 44 special and the same guy that had the post on the Firing Line posted this response
"Patience, and that's all I can say "




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[Tamara]

There's some guy on TFL (https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=577910) who says that a new mid-frame .44 is in the works. (Post #4)

Whether or not there's anything to that...... [shrug]

I could maybe see Ruger doing a GP-100 five-shooter, but I don't know as I'd call that "new". Likewise, S&W L-frame .44 Spls (396, 696, or variants thereof) will likely drift back in and out of the catalog to meet pent-up demand, the way the 610/657/etc do.


Charter Arms offers 5 shot, small frame .44 specials. I have no personal experience with them.

The original Charter arms went toes up in the late '80s or early '90s, and their guns were mediocre at best. Their various successor companies...Charter 200, Charco, the new Charter arms...are... Well, I wouldn't line my cat's litter box with ground-up Charter 2000s.

[BillSWPA]

[QUOTE=Tamara;489345The original Charter arms went toes up in the late '80s or early '90s, and their guns were mediocre at best. Their various successor companies...Charter 200, Charco, the new Charter arms...are... Well, I wouldn't line my cat's litter box with ground-up Charter 2000s.[/QUOTE]

What kind of issues have you seen with them?

[Drang]

Charter Arms pistols (or whichever corporate iteration) were never known for durability in their best incarnation. QC was abysmal in their worst.

[BehindBlueI's]

I posted over on the Ruger forum about a possible GP100 44 special and the same guy that had the post on the Firing Line posted this response
"Patience, and that's all I can say "




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Interesting.

http://www.clementscustomguns.com/rugerdarevolvers.html if you've got $$$ and don't want to wait, you can pay this fellow to make you one now.



GP 100 .44 Special- I will once again offer this conversion on adjustable and fixed sight guns. Standard features include 5 shot recessed casehead cyl. - unfluted, rebored factory barrel, new front sight blade, and action tune. $1250

[Tamara]

What kind of issues have you seen with them?

My most notable example? I had an early '90s production Bulldog Pug that shot itself so loose in three hundred and twenty (320) rounds that I got to where I was scared to shoot it. Timing was fried, endshake was horrible, and big chunks of electroless nickel had flaked off the forcing cone and underside of the topstrap.

[okie john]

Interesting.

http://www.clementscustomguns.com/rugerdarevolvers.html if you've got $$$ and don't want to wait, you can pay this fellow to make you one now.

I've owned two Clements 5-shot Ruger Bisleys, one in 45 Colt and one in 454 Casull. They were among the most accurate handguns I've ever owned. I'd buy his work again in a heartbeat.


Okie John

[Dagga Boy]

Just to clarify on my Bulldog. It was built for me by a high end gunsmith. I traded it back to him for something when the 296 came out. He still daily carries it. Let me clarify......high end gunsmith, who likes to make and experiment with things. It is a neat gun, but it is not much Charter Arms anymore. The one .44 we used to sell a lot of that we're pretty good for the money was the 3" Taurus "k" frame one.

I love my 296 for what I used it most for (cycling, where it was for both animals and people). With that said, I think in the snubs the current high performance .38 special is likely a better bet when you are looking at 7 .38/.357 vs. 5 .44's squeezed into a tight package with very thin forcing cones. For a service size revolver...yea, I like .44 SPl. And .45 Colt in these as good soft shooting defensive rounds.

[Eastex]

If Ruger made a 5 shot 44 SP GP100 what configuration do you think it would be in? One with a three inch barrel and compact grips would really get my attention but they may not see that as a big seller.


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[Jim Watson]

In my formative years, .45 Colt was listed as a 255 at 850 fps, WW still shows it at 860. It might not be that fast in a revolver vs test barrel, but it still had a thump.
Mike Venturino demonstrated well over 900 fps with a compressed load of black powder in a 7.5" cavalry revolver.

Likewise .44 Special was cataloged as a 246 at 740 fps, same as .44 Russian and probably not a coincidence.
Maybe not a coincidence, either, that .45 S&W/Government and .45 1909 were about the same.

Handloaders and manufacturers have loaded them both up, down, and sideways to suit their market.
As Elmer Keith said of .357 in 1960, you should load your own so you know what you are getting.

[Stephanie B]

Their various successor companies...Charter 200, Charco, the new Charter arms...are... Well, I wouldn't line my cat's litter box with ground-up Charter 2000s.

The "cat's staff" part of me would note that ground-up Charter revolvers would have very poor absorbency when compared to even the cheapest cat litter. Which maybe says something about the lack of utility of the product.

:D

[Sigfan26]

What kind of issues have you seen with them?

10 rounds of Underwood 200gr Wadcutters (not hot by any means, and rated for the Bulldog) left my ejector rid binding and hammer sticking. It was shortly before I relocated to AZ, so I will get it fixed eventually. I wouldn't buy another one. Also, the fit of the word grip (I have a Classic 3") was very sloppy. This was remedied by a narrow strip of Duct tape along the blackstrap to act as a ghetto gasket.


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[serialsolver]

What kind of issues have you seen with them?

I had a new one around 10 ten years ago and a friend wanted to shoot it. Told him it it was in my range bag with some ammo. He got and shot 10 or 15 rounds through it and bought it back. When he gave the charter back to me with the ammo I realized I forgot to tell him what ammo to get and he had shot 44sp +p's in it. The classic skeleton load. Those few rounds had loosened that little revolver up so much I didn't trust it. I took a loss and started hunting a 696. I don't recommend them.


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[Tamara]

I'll note that I have a thing for .44 Special, and especially for the littler 5-shot .44 Special guns. I've had a 696, a Rossi 720 Covert, the aforementioned Bulldog Pug, and I still have a 296 that's been my dedicated purse/off-body carry gun for fifteen years now.

One thing I learned from the Rossi and the Charter is to limit myself to reasonably-loaded bullets of 200gr or lighter, especially in the smaller guns. I mentioned that my Charter was beat near to death in 320 rounds; three hundred of those were PMC 240gr SJHP. Those same PMCs would lock the Rossi 720 up in just a couple cylinders, but you could shoot a box or two of CCI Blazer 200gr GDHP through it with no problems at all. In the flyweight 296/396 L-frames, anything over 200gr tends to start turning the gun into a kinetic bullet puller anyway.

[Lost River]

The S&W 329 makes a dandy lightweight .44 special.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Handguns/P1010440_zpsbprlxqz2.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Handguns/P1010440_zpsbprlxqz2.jpg.html)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Handguns/P1000818_zpss2f3lgvm.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Handguns/P1000818_zpss2f3lgvm.jpg.html)

Buffalo Bore has a hard cast full wadcutter " anti personnel" load listed at 1,000 FPS that would probably take the fight out of most aggressors.

They also have couple different JHP and SWC .44 special loads that should meet a person's needs as well.

[Tamara]

329's a fantastic .44 Spl gun. Too bad they accidentally cut the chambers long enough for folks to mess up and put magnums in them. ;) :D

[Dagga Boy]

329's a fantastic .44 Spl gun. Too bad they accidentally cut the chambers long enough for folks to mess up and put magnums in them. ;) :D

No truer words have been spoken. It should have been a 324. I shot Hamilton Bowens for an article. Convinced me pretty quick that there is a limit to what I want to shoot full house .44 magnum in.

[Sigfan26]

I've fired a total of 12 .44 magnums through my 329 PD... It's a 44 special gun (and, a ton of fun with 44 special!).


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[BillSWPA]

Wow, the number of firsthand problems with the charter arms guns is disturbing. Thanks for the replies.

[Lost River]

329's a fantastic .44 Spl gun. Too bad they accidentally cut the chambers long enough for folks to mess up and put magnums in them. ;) :D

I load my standard "medium" .44 mag load, which could easily be duplicated in .44 Special brass. 10 grains Unique and a 240/250 cast SWC. It is tolerable in the 329 and I can attest to the fact that it has enough horsepower to put the smackdown on some fairly decent sized critters.

As far as loading true full bore, heavy for caliber/top end Magnum loads in the 329... BTDT, (briefly) it takes the fun right out of it.

I will stick with loads that are in the warm 44 Special category, though I simply load everything in Magnum brass for simplicity sake.

The 329 with CT grips is a pretty darn lightweight packing gun though, and fun woodsbumming companion.

It is a great 44 Special!

[Bigghoss]

Hopefully S&W releases a 2 or 3" 69.

Am I the only one who wants to see a L-frame in .45acp? I know it's not all that practical but, come on!

[Sigfan26]

Hopefully S&W releases a 2 or 3" 69.

Am I the only one who wants to see a L-frame in .45acp? I know it's not all that practical but, come on!

I love my 69... I wouldn't buy a .45 or a short barrel, though.


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[Drang]

Hopefully S&W releases a 2 or 3" 69.
Ooooh, please, please, please!

[Bigghoss]

I love my 69... I wouldn't buy a .45 or a short barrel, though.


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I'm thinking more for specials than magnums.

[Malamute]

Wow, the number of firsthand problems with the charter arms guns is disturbing. Thanks for the replies.

I had one in the mid 70s. It shaved a little lead on one side of the forcing cone. Looking at it, it didn't look too difficult for a teenage kid to take apart and figure out. The cylinder bolt was stamped sheet metal. I simply bent it a little, made sure it moved in the frame slot, put it all back together, and it timed the cylinder locking nicely. Stamped sheet metal. Soft too.



I load my standard "medium" .44 mag load, which could easily be duplicated in .44 Special brass. 10 grains Unique and a 240/250 cast SWC. It is tolerable in the 329 and I can attest to the fact that it has enough horsepower to put the smackdown on some fairly decent sized critters.



I recall figuring out the load difference between spl and mag cases. Thinking it was 1/2 to 1 full grain difference (depending on charge size and powder type) for the same velocity because of the case capacity difference. Have to refigure, but I think my 9 gr Unique charge in mag cases only takes 8 1/2 grs in a spl case. Very nice load in the mag cases.

[Sigfan26]

I'm thinking more for specials than magnums.

I'd prefer they reintroduce the 396 and 296 first...


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[Bigghoss]

I'd prefer they reintroduce the 396 and 296 first...


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I figured a 3" 69 would be an easier sell.

[Tamara]

I figured a 3" 69 would be an easier sell.

Sad but true.

(And, truthfully, I don't see why they haven't already. They have to be aware of the scalper's prices that 696's bring on the used market.)

[Dagga Boy]

I'd prefer they reintroduce the 396 and 296 first...


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The problem is the 296 is ugly....yet one of my all time favorite guns. Like Tam, I got a ton of use out of mine for off body or specialized carry. The 396 is too light for what it is. I don't want a trail gun limited to anti-personnel Ammo when I want anti four legged animal loads. What I would love to see is a steel 296 with a 3" barrel and some good sights like C&S or Bowen style, or even a u notch and X/S. This would make a great trail and outdoors revolver with an enclosed action, and able to shoot Keith special loads. I'd also go back to a cool name like Pioneer, Mountain Snub, or Trail Explorer. Okay, my list is in.

[Tamara]

What I would love to see is a steel 296 with a 3" barrel and some good sights like C&S or Bowen style, or even a u notch and X/S. This would make a great trail and outdoors revolver with an enclosed action, and able to shoot Keith special loads. I'd also go back to a cool name like Pioneer, Mountain Snub, or Trail Explorer.

I'd be on that like white on rice.

[serialsolver]

I've not had any problems with my 396ng pulling bullets and I carry 44+p's in it. I liked the night guard series with the steel cylinder better than the versions with the titanium cylinder.
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee179/serialsolver/67A949DC-75B9-46D6-895F-B4CE3B844029_zpslidzohvv.jpg (http://s233.photobucket.com/user/serialsolver/media/67A949DC-75B9-46D6-895F-B4CE3B844029_zpslidzohvv.jpg.html)

I am interested in seeing a new 44sp introduced. Maybe ruger has noticed what used 696's go fer. I made money when I sold mine and me making money on a gun sale is rare. Very rare.


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[Bigghoss]

^ I missed out on a nice Night Guard in .45acp a few months ago. I was looking for evil black things at the time.



Beauty of a 696 on armslist for $675 but the guy's in Florida and won't ship. :(

[Dagga Boy]

I have a 329NG......I have not shot it because of sheer fear. I daily carry a 386 when I walk the dog and I almost got broken in last week for the exact reason I carry it. My dog was attacked by two loose dogs that is a far greater fear in my neighborhood than criminals....especially walking a 100 pound GSD. Luckily me drop kicking the other dogs worked and my dog doing well against the one I couldn't kick. I figured the revolver is the best choice for shoving into a ball of fighting fur and teeth. I am glad I didn't have to shoot the other dogs, but it was a very fast, coordinated, and violent attack on my leashed dog and made me realize that I did have the right tool for that problem.

[Drang]

I'd prefer they reintroduce the 396 and 296 first...


I figured a 3" 69 would be an easier sell.

Either, or both!

[serialsolver]

329ng is also a great 44sp. When I got my 329ng I didn't carry my 329pd as much.
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee179/serialsolver/IMG_0176.jpg (http://s233.photobucket.com/user/serialsolver/media/IMG_0176.jpg.html)

Still the 396ng is my choice in 44sp.


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[Hambo]

329ng is also a great 44sp. When I got my 329ng I didn't carry my 329pd as much.
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee179/serialsolver/IMG_0176.jpg (http://s233.photobucket.com/user/serialsolver/media/IMG_0176.jpg.html)

Still the 396ng is my choice in 44sp.

What are those grips?


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[serialsolver]

Hambo, here's the link.

http://www.collinscraftgrips.com

I have a set of these grips for a n frame if you're interested send me a pm.


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[That Guy]

I carried a .45 Colt revolver as my first duty gun for several years. I worked numerous officer involved shootings with them. I never remember anything but single round immediate incapacitation of bad guys no matter where they were hit.

This made me curious, knowing some of the "worst case scenarios" that have occurred where multiple hits were required.

How much would you attribute your agency's success when using the .45 in OIS's to caliber, specific cartridge, bullet placement, just plain luck, or...? (Am I forgetting a variable? And the ones I listed were in random order.)

[Dagga Boy]

This made me curious, knowing some of the "worst case scenarios" that have occurred where multiple hits were required.

How much would you attribute your agency's success when using the .45 in OIS's to caliber, specific cartridge, bullet placement, just plain luck, or...? (Am I forgetting a variable? And the ones I listed were in random order.)

"Yes"......we had a bit of everything. For the folks who flat ten ringed crooks with a .45 Colt....sack of potatoes stops. In one, crook was hit in poor areas with six .38's (mainly an issue with angle and what was available....backing officer hits bad guy in femur with .45 Colt....immediate incapacitation (breaking a femur and the pain of a direct large bone hit with .45 Colt should be a winner). That shooting was basically the death of the .38 special at my old place for patrol officers and almost the entire place immediately switched to the optional .45 Colt revolver.

[Eastex]

If someone was interested in a new .45 Colt double action what models would you recommend to look at? It would mostly be used for home defense/range work/cooler weather concealed carry , under jackets or over shirts in a owb holster with suspenders for weight dispersal.


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[Tamara]

If someone was interested in a new .45 Colt double action what models would you recommend to look at?

Well, you're in luck. The field is limited to two: Redhawk and Model 25, and the variables are "Do you like Smith or Ruger better?" and "How hot are your handloads?" ;)

[Lost River]

If someone was interested in a new .45 Colt double action what models would you recommend to look at? It would mostly be used for home defense/range work/cooler weather concealed carry , under jackets or over shirts in a owb holster with suspenders for weight dispersal.


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If you were not interested in the BEAST of a handgun that is the Redhawk, I would suggest a used Model 25, rather than a new one. A quick trip to Gunbroker shows a good number of used ones. A nice blued, no-lock, firing pin on the hammer, honest to goodness, old school Model 25 would be at the top of the list.

Gunbroker has one that is a "No-dash" for 9 bills right now.

BTW, the Redhawk is a hell for stout piece, and I have a couple in .44, but if you have never owned a big bore S&W N Frame, of the old school variety, you owe it to yourself!

[Tamara]

A nice blued, no-lock, firing pin on the hammer, honest to goodness, old school Model 25 would be at the top of the list.

FWIW, this is how I'd roll, too.

[Trooper224]

I had a stainless S&W Mountain Gun in .45 Colt. It was post firing pin on the hammer but pre lawyer lock. An all around great revolver I wish I'd hung onto. Older Model 25-5's can have accuracy problems due to chamber throat issues. They can be luck of the draw. If you find one, shoot it before buying if at all possible.

[Dagga Boy]

Two I would recommend if not looking for a classic blue and wanting a field gun. I recently bought a .45 Colt mountain Gun from a member here and really like it. I also love my Ruger Alaskan in .454 that will shoot .454 or .45 Colt. It is my favorite outdoors bear habitat gun.

[Eastex]

Thanks for the replies, I mentioned new models mostly because I never see old Smiths for sale around here but I guess there's a good reason for that. I'd thought about that Alaskan, that one and the the round butt Redhawk 45/45 ACP are both on my radar. I've just got to get out and handle them for myself. Lots of good info on them here in the forum that I've been digging through.


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[Stephanie B]

I posted over on the Ruger forum about a possible GP100 44 special and the same guy that had the post on the Firing Line posted this response
"Patience, and that's all I can say "

It'd be nice if they did it in .45LC. After all, what's the big deal about a couple hundredths of an inch? :D

[Welder]

If someone was interested in a new .45 Colt double action what models would you recommend to look at?

I owned an Alaskan back, what, maybe 15 or 16 yrs ago when they first came out? .454's were a hoot, .45 Colts were the norm for it. I sold it when the prices went up after it was used in some movie or temp out of production in that caliber or whatever the spike was caused by. Don't really miss it, but it was an extremely accurate short-barreled revolver. My city-girl sisters in law both shot a couple cylinders' worth of .45 Colt out of it on one memorable range trip, with no complaints from either; just big smiles.

[Jeep]

Two I would recommend if not looking for a classic blue and wanting a field gun. I recently bought a .45 Colt mountain Gun from a member here and really like it. I also love my Ruger Alaskan in .454 that will shoot .454 or .45 Colt. It is my favorite outdoors bear habitat gun.

Sounds like just what your wrists/hands need these days--a bunch of stout .454 loads!

[ldunnmobile]

Allow me to ask a silly question, when it comes to two legged varmints... is there really a significant difference between 45 Colt and +P 45 ACP?

[Lost River]

Not in my opinion, unless they are behind a barricade that needs punched through.

A 350 grain Keith style semi wadcutter propelled by a moderate to stout charge, tends to go through a good many things that a person may have previously considered "cover".

That said, for day-to-day use against your common thug, a good .45 ACP load is likely to be more than sufficient, and substantially more controllable in terms of recoil management, and shot to shot recovery time, than your typical "heavy" .45 Colt load.

[That Guy]

If someone was interested in a new .45 Colt double action what models would you recommend to look at? It would mostly be used for home defense/range work/cooler weather concealed carry , under jackets or over shirts in a owb holster with suspenders for weight dispersal.


For what it's worth, in my opinion my S&W Mountain Gun (625) rides surprisingly well in an owb holster without trying to pull my trousers down. (The reloads, however, not so much... A single ammo pouch is not a problem, but with three speed loaders (IDPA loadout) on my belt I need to be careful lest I start walking around in circles.) This from just playing around at home and range carry, though.

The 4" Redhawk is a much heftier gun, so suspenders may be in order with that one. :) (Carrying one at the range works surprisingly well with my super stiff belt, though. Still, the weight difference compared to the 625 is substantial. And of course, the same thing applies when it comes to reloads for the gun.)

[Lester Polfus]

how well would a Model 25 hold up to a steady diet of 300 to 350 grain bullets at 1000 FPS?

[Colt191145lover]

Ive always wanted to play around with the RCBS 270 SAA cast bullet in the S&W Mountain gun but never had the time . Always though that bullet at about 1,000 FPS would be a great outdoors load . Here is some info/ load data .

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL%20246partial.pdf

[okie john]

how well would a Model 25 hold up to a steady diet of 300 to 350 grain bullets at 1000 FPS?

You can see John Linebaugh's opinion at http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12. I'm inclined to agree with him.


Okie John

[iveschris]

John Linebaugh talks about .45 Colt loads, myths, etc here http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm. A steady diet of 300 and 350gr'rs in a S&W at 1000fps might be too much of a good thing. I don't know that heavy weight bullets work well in the S&W, not mine anyway. My S&W 25-9 of 1989 has demonstrated one of the dreaded S&W issues with .45 Colt, a too-high rear sight blade. A week-long email exchange with S&W yielded agreement with my diagnosis (gun printed way high with all bullet weights and velocities). S&W finally admitted that the lower rear sight blade was made but not available. Brownells was out of them as well. Previous .45 Colt issues in S&Ws like mismatched chamber throats are not present in mine. i may get a file out and lower the rear sight myself (shoot, file, shoot, file), but haven't yet.

Liking the caliber - and by now having put together a cache of ammo and brass - I found a 4.2"-barreled Redhawk in .45 Colt. It is a little heavier though larger as has been previously observed than a 4" S&W (a scant couple of ounces heavier than my S&W with its 5" barrel and unfluted cylinder). As a previous post in this thread noted, the right holster and a stout belt are needed. The gun's more accurate than I expected. My S&W in this caliber is a tack driver, so's the Ruger. I'm waiting on a back ordered Bowen Rough Country rear sight. I've tried 300 and 350 gr factory ammo out of the Ruger and they accuracy results were not acceptable. I'm also waiting on Grizzly Cartridge 265gr loads to try, thinking this to be a sweet spot based on talking to some other shooters of this caliber.

When I was stationed in SoCal ('85-88, Army) most LEAs seemingly wouldn't issue hollow point or magnum ammunition to their officers. Only the most progressive agencies issued semi autos (Huntington Beach comes to mind, offering a choice of either a Browning BDA - the Sig 220 - or a S&W 66 and the duty load for either was a W-W Silvertip as I recall). Many officers if given the choice (as Nyeti notes) carried '25s and '24s. My first S&W in .45 Colt came from a retired deputy (to go with a semiauto), recommending the Silvertip as well. This pistol in 4" didn't like anything heavier than 250grs.

Hope this helps.

[Colt191145lover]

You can see John Linebaugh's opinion at http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12. I'm inclined to agree with him.


Okie John

I forgot about that article , thanks for putting that link up !

[Lester Polfus]

Doh. I actually read that article.

Thanks.

[okie john]

John Linebaugh talks about .45 Colt loads, myths, etc here http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm.

That's a classic read.

I'm old enough to not enjoy recoil, so I try to hold my N-frames to a 250-grain cast SWC at about 1,100 fps, usually over 10-ish grains of Unique. Any post-WWII S&W 44 or 45 will last pretty much forever at that level of power. Those loads are accurate enough for rabbits, they shoot a lot flatter than you'd expect, and they just flat clobber deer.


Okie John

[Dagga Boy]

Allow me to ask a silly question, when it comes to two legged varmints... is there really a significant difference between 45 Colt and +P 45 ACP?

Likely...little or nothing, and the .45ACP is likely better due to load development. If revolvers were still popular I would think so,e amazing bullets would have been developed for them because the bullet shape has no effect on function like a semi auto.

[Wayne Dobbs]

While I don't have a .45 Colt (stupidly sold a pre-lock 625 MG in .45 Colt years back), I do have a pre-lock 625 Mountain Gun in .45 ACP/AR. I've been loading 250 Keith SWCs with Unique powder to ~900 fps for several years and testing Linebaugh's suggestion of the same bullet at the same speed in this revolver. In short, it works like crazy on Texas white tails! I've killed around a dozen with that gun and load and nothing has moved further than 25 yards from the shot location and nothing has needed more than the first shot. I've also done in about the same number using the Federal 230 HST +P load and it's a very sure killer, too. That factory load has delivered some of the most dramatic "drop at the shot" results I've ever seen in all my years (over 50) of zapping Texas deer. While I'd love to get that Mountain Gun in .45 Colt back one day, I've got a winner with what I have.

[Lester Polfus]

Sounds like if I had one of those, 300 to 350 grainers wouldn't be all that necessary.

It's hard to argue with 255 Grains going 1000 FPS.

Thanks.

[SteveB]

For a big bore N-frame that's stupid accurate and easy to shoot, don't forget about the 624:

10107

[Trooper224]

Of late, I've been lusting for a 24/624. Now that I've said that, I'm sure Nyeti will show up with photos of his awesome examples. ;)

[Wayne Dobbs]

For a big bore N-frame that's stupid accurate and easy to shoot, don't forget about the 624:

10107

I have a pre-lock one of those too and it's a great shooter. Who did that front sight for you?

[SteveB]

I have a pre-lock one of those too and it's a great shooter. Who did that front sight for you?

Hamilton Bowen.

[SteveB]

Linebaugh does nice single-actions, too:

10108

[John Hearne]

Likely...little or nothing, and the .45ACP is likely better due to load development. If revolvers were still popular I would think so,e amazing bullets would have been developed for them because the bullet shape has no effect on function like a semi auto.

Cirillo certainly thought so. He lamented that the only way to reliably breech the skull for a headshot was to use a bullet with a sharp shoulder like a wadcutter that would "bite." Bullets like that don't feed in semi-autos. IIRC, his partner would load one "special" load into the chamber of his 1911 and stuff the magazines with hardball for reliable feeding in subsequent shots.

[Stephanie B]

Quote Originally Posted by nyeti
Likely...little or nothing, and the .45ACP is likely better due to load development. If revolvers were still popular I would think so,e amazing bullets would have been developed for them because the bullet shape has no effect on function like a semi auto.Cirillo certainly thought so. He lamented that the only way to reliably breech the skull for a headshot was to use a bullet with a sharp shoulder like a wadcutter that would "bite." Bullets like that don't feed in semi-autos. IIRC, his partner would load one "special" load into the chamber of his 1911 and stuff the magazines with hardball for reliable feeding in subsequent shots.

Do semi-wadcutters count?

[Tamara]

For a big bore N-frame that's stupid accurate and easy to shoot, don't forget about the 624:

10107

Back in late '01 or early '02 I bought a set of three LNIB 624s...a 6", 4", and 3"...just to get the 3" gun. I paid...I want to say it was $1,150 or $1,200 for the trio. I used the 6" and 4" guns as trade fodder. I can't remember what the 4" gun brought, but I used the 6" gun to trade into the 2" 64 (plus some boot) that's my bedside gun to this day.

Man, it's amazing how much sweeter a memory buying three N-frames for a little over a grand gets with each passing year. :D

[Jeep]

Back in late '01 or early '02 I bought a set of three LNIB 624s...a 6", 4", and 3"...just to get the 3" gun. I paid...I want to say it was $1,150 or $1,200 for the trio. I used the 6" and 4" guns as trade fodder. I can't remember what the 4" gun brought, but I used the 6" gun to trade into the 2" 64 (plus some boot) that's my bedside gun to this day.

Man, it's amazing how much sweeter a memory buying three N-frames for a little over a grand gets with each passing year. :D

If you pulled that deal off today you probably would be close to the threshold for a grand larceny charge.

[Trooper224]

I still lament the 90's, when I bought a Colt Python ofr $350 and an S&W M27 for $300.

[JAD]

Cirillo certainly thought so. He lamented that the only way to reliably breech the skull for a headshot was to use a bullet with a sharp shoulder like a wadcutter that would "bite." Bullets like that don't feed in semi-autos. IIRC, his partner would load one "special" load into the chamber of his 1911 and stuff the magazines with hardball for reliable feeding in subsequent shots.

In the mid nineties I used to buy Hornady's 200 FMJ C/T (45157) and load it to 1000 fps from a 4 1/4". Basically that thinking about terminal performance. It ran like a raped ape (I made at least 3400 of them that I can recall and never had one stop) and a buddy could group 5 into an inch out of a tuned Para on demand.

This is back when I thought handloaded ammo was superior for carry, because I could inspect the flash hole.

[B0308]

Hi All,

Late to the Game, had to make time to take some pictures. Once upon a time (in my experience 1983-89) , SoCal was almost firearms friendly and had a great series of local gun shops. I did a lot of business with one in the South Bay and also had access to the "Pro-Shop" at the LA Revolver and Athletic Club (aka LAPD Academy).

I got the following then:

[10184[ATTACH=CONFIG]10184[/ATTACH



The .45LC S&W 25-5, 4", as a used gun, at the gun shop, it showed signs of legitimate use and great trigger job and nice Hogue grips. Smooth shooting and accurate as heck.

The .44 SPL 624 (no dash) 3" was one of a brace. I unwisely sold it's twin a few years ago, along with the S&W logo OWB holster. The one I kept was from the Pro-Shop at a price "Too low to advertise" and no waiting period, Life was good :cool:, it was also my night stand gun during the "Night Stalker" period in LA, as if things got really bad, a contact shot was possible, something that a 1911 might not offer.

If I was down to one revolver or had to carry such in a NPE, it would be the 624, with a current defensive load.

Damn glad I have both, they don't get a lot of use, but are great to take out to the local gun club, where a generation or two of shooters have only shot poly-semi's. Loosing a cylinder of either with resulting noise and smoke is an education for some.

Stay safe

[Dagga Boy]

Agreed on the 83-89 period of SoCal and guns. Glorious times. The 25-5 was likely a Long Beach PD officer trade in if you bought it used in the South Bay and noting the distinctive muzzle end holster wear. Long Beach, Ontario, and National City were the big 25-5 users......and places where being a crook in the 80's was a major health hazard.

[B0308]

Neyti,

South Bay Armory in Manhatten Beach, they also had an outlet in Carson, all a subset of B&B Guns, in the Valley, IIRC. Good selection, willing to deal, what's not to like. A Long Beach PD turn in makes sense and the wear is honest. Oh for the days of the Pomona Gun show :cool:.

[45dotACP]

Hi All,

Late to the Game, had to make time to take some pictures. Once upon a time (in my experience 1983-89) , SoCal was almost firearms friendly and had a great series of local gun shops. I did a lot of business with one in the South Bay and also had access to the "Pro-Shop" at the LA Revolver and Athletic Club (aka LAPD Academy).

I got the following then:

[10184[ATTACH=CONFIG]10184[/ATTACH



The .45LC S&W 25-5, 4", as a used gun, at the gun shop, it showed signs of legitimate use and great trigger job and nice Hogue grips. Smooth shooting and accurate as heck.

The .44 SPL 624 (no dash) 3" was one of a brace. I unwisely sold it's twin a few years ago, along with the S&W logo OWB holster. The one I kept was from the Pro-Shop at a price "Too low to advertise" and no waiting period, Life was good :cool:, it was also my night stand gun during the "Night Stalker" period in LA, as if things got really bad, a contact shot was possible, something that a 1911 might not offer.

If I was down to one revolver or had to carry such in a NPE, it would be the 624, with a current defensive load.

Damn glad I have both, they don't get a lot of use, but are great to take out to the local gun club, where a generation or two of shooters have only shot poly-semi's. Loosing a cylinder of either with resulting noise and smoke is an education for some.

Stay safe

You may be late to the game, but those guns are classy dude.

I'm one of those "young whipper snapper" millenials everyone thinks learned to shoot with glocks...

I didn't.

I was introduced to handguns by my first ever employer at around 14 or 15...I worked on a farm for a summer or two and my employer had a range and backstop...I remember his model 24...that gun was purely sexy

I need a Smith and Wesson .44 if for no other reason, than to remember a good friend, and the person who introduced me to handgun shooting.

[Dagga Boy]

Neyti,

South Bay Armory in Manhatten Beach, they also had an outlet in Carson, all a subset of B&B Guns, in the Valley, IIRC. Good selection, willing to deal, what's not to like. A Long Beach PD turn in makes sense and the wear is honest. Oh for the days of the Pomona Gun show :cool:.

There was a time when my greatest joy was walking the aisles at the Great Western Gun Show at Pomona and just throwing hundred dollar bills out like confetti. Best one was dropping $6,000.00 in he first building just seeing stuff I "needed".

[Trooper224]

I last lived in Cali during the mid to late 80's. I loved the Pomona gun show. I had very little money back then that didn't go towards feeding the kids, but just walking the isles was an education in itself. It's sad to see how things have changed in SoCal.

[Jeep]

Hi All,

Late to the Game, had to make time to take some pictures.

Outstanding N-frames. I wish they still made 3 inch 624's.

[Chuck Haggard]

Wow, the number of firsthand problems with the charter arms guns is disturbing. Thanks for the replies.

I had one of their .38 snubs this one time, brand new in the box. I destroyed it by firing exactly 47 rounds of Federal 125gr JHPs through it.

[Stephanie B]

The secret new Ruger turned out to not be a .44 Special.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160924/f39d3e41939794cc8c1f20b7f075d259.jpg


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[Eastex]

22 is half of 44, oh well.


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[entropy]

Something I have noticed in my several month absence from this forum.

The contents and size of my piggy bank are in direct inverse proportion of my time spent here.

Curious.