Thoughts on BUG location for civilians who carry AIWB

[sharps54]

Skip the next three paragraphs if you don't want the background to the question.

Let me preface by saying I'm not a LEO and don't open carry. If I was in a position where my primary had to be carried on my strong side belt I wouldn't be asking as I do think it is important to carry a BUG in the same position when possible.

With that out of the way I'm just a short, fat civilian that has recently seen the light on AIWB carry. In the past I have carried strong side behind the hip or pocket carry. We bought a house at the beginning of the year and money has been pretty tight, tight enough to change my practice philosophy. For a number of reasons I decided (convinced myself) to switch to a J frame as a primary carry gun instead of my Glock 26. I could go into those reasons (wife prefers wheel guns, better suited for dry fire practice, shares reloads with my J frame BUG, conceals much better AIWB due to my gut, DAO trigger might offer a slight margin of safety if my training fails and finger goes on trigger unconsciously, and so on) and I plan to do so in the training journal entry I'm going to start after my range trip this week but this post isn't really about the gun itself. My main aim here is where to carry the second gun.

Do I as a civilian need to carry a BUG? If I was carrying the bottom feeder I would say probably not, although it doesn't hurt, but when carrying a J frame the New York reload is a valid technique, especially since the preferred way to deal with a stoppage for a revolver is to draw a second gun. I do carry reloads in a manner that allows me to reach at least one with either hand.

For the time being I'm carrying two J frames, usually 442 pros. I carry one AIWB and am flexible enough to calvary draw with my support hand from the waistband so why should I carry the second gun in my support side pocket as opposed to the strong side pocket? If I am in position to have my hand in my pocket wouldn't it be preferable if that is the strong hand? If I am seated (driving, in a restaurant, whatever) and can't easily get to the pocket I can just draw from the AIWB with my strong hand. If I can't carry AIWB I can still pocket carry in which case the pocket gun becomes primary anyway. By keeping the second gun in my strong side pocket I'm standardizing that location for all the times I carry.

My thinking is that a gun in a pocket it is only accessible to one hand where AIWB is accessible to both. If I start with the gun in the strong side pocket the AIWB becomes the BUG and is accessible to both hands. If I start with the AIWB the gun in my pocket becomes the BUG and is only accessible to one hand, if that hand is out of commission I'm screwed.

I know I'm overthinking this but unlike a patrol officer I'm not seeing a reason to carry the second gun in my support side pocket as long as I'm carrying one of my guns accessible to either hand. I'm not able to comfortably carry both AIWB, yes I tried, so one will end up in a pocket the only question is which pocket.

Thank you in advance for any thoughts / input.

[BehindBlueI's]

I believe pocket carry of a second gun makes a lot of sense for AIWB carriers. The two carry positions have different strengths that cover the other's weakness (appendix being hard to conceal a draw from face to face but is fast, easy to draw from while seated...pocket being slow to access and tough to draw while seated, but easy to conceal a draw as compliance if being robbed). Pocket carry is also pretty strong for retention. I don't think I've had anyone pick-pocketed of a gun, certainly not in a front pocket.

[Mjolnir]

I believe pocket carry of a second gun makes a lot of sense for AIWB carriers. The two carry positions have different strengths that cover the other's weakness (appendix being hard to conceal a draw from face to face but is fast, easy to draw from while seated...pocket being slow to access and tough to draw while seated, but easy to conceal a draw as compliance if being robbed). Pocket carry is also pretty strong for retention. I don't think I've had anyone pick-pocketed of a gun, certainly not in a front pocket.

It's far more revealing to draw strong side hip than AIWB.

Pocket carry is difficult to get to.

I once carried strong side IWB while carrying AIWB.

Why? Leaving the range with a friend but the persons sharing the range looked and acted a bit shady so I did not wish to drive home or leave anything in the car while we got a bite to eat.

It works but that cannot be an everyday carry solution for many. Hell, not even for me!


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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[BehindBlueI's]

It's far more revealing to draw strong side hip than AIWB.


We're face to face. I have a gun on you and demand your wallet. Tell me how you draw AIWB without looking like you're going for a gun.

[JodyH]

I believe pocket carry of a second gun makes a lot of sense for AIWB carriers. The two carry positions have different strengths that cover the other's weakness (appendix being hard to conceal a draw from face to face but is fast, easy to draw from while seated...pocket being slow to access and tough to draw while seated, but easy to conceal a draw as compliance if being robbed). Pocket carry is also pretty strong for retention. I don't think I've had anyone pick-pocketed of a gun, certainly not in a front pocket.
Completely agree.
There is no faster non-telegraphed draw than from a pocket if you start with your hand on the grip.

When dealing with unknowns I like to slightly blade, my right hand is in my pocket on the grip of my PM9.
I like to place my left hand in "chin stroking contemplation" position.
This puts me in a good position to defend my head from a right haymaker (most common sucker punch) or to throw a left jab and is a good distraction from my right hand.
It's also not as overt as the "interview position".

As to pocket carry accessibility, I almost exclusively wear Duluth cargo pants or shorts with huge front pockets and use quality smooth leather pocket holsters. 2 seconds from the buzzer to 2 "A" body hits at 5-7Y is my usual stating hands relaxed at sides.
If I start from hand on the grip it's sub-1 sec. to the first hit.

I usually consider my pocket carried PM9 to be my "primary" and my AIWB P30SK is my "reload" or becomes my primary if I have more time to setup the draw.

[JodyH]

We're face to face. I have a gun on you and demand your wallet. Tell me how you draw AIWB without looking like you're going for a gun.
Of course I'll give you my wallet and my keys sir... *reaches into pocket just like the bad guy demands*.
Compliance... compliance... compliance... WTF?!?! OODA reset.

[Totem Polar]

Good to see you posting regularly again, Jody.

[OnionsAndDragons]

I'm on board w Jody and BBIs.

I carry AIWB 95% of the time. When I carry a BUG it is a J in my strong side pocket.

[Mitch]

I've been thinking about BUGs a lot lately. Here is my main issue. A J-Frame seems to be the best option for pocket carry and a pretty good ankle gun, too. But a 5 shot .38 is a 1 bad guy gun to me, and just last week I read about someone was robbed by two armed attackers. That person was also walking alone and the robbery happened at 12 AM or 1, and I don't do stuff like that, but still. I'd hate to be dealing with more than one opponent, the primary gun goes down hard, and I'm left with a 5 shot .38. Is that asking too much of a BUG? I don't know.

The flip side to that is I also see a lot of value in a pocket gun (which screams J-Frame to me) for exactly the reasons Jody mentioned.

I want a G26 as a back up gun to my G19. I don't know if that is realistic. I may look at a Kahr P9 on the ankle, I think that's 7 or 8+1 and around 15 oz empty. That sounds almost ideal, but I know next to nothing about Kahrs and their reliablity.

Sorry for the thread drift. But living near Chicago, BLM, and possible election fall out has put this at the forefront of my mind lately.

[Kennydale]

10013
G17 (AIWB) Ruger LCP left front pocket behind slim (Dash) wallet

[Prdator]

I'm a big fan of non dominant side pocket carry with a dominant side AIWB carry. I think it's hard to beat.

[Paul Sharp]

Have you ruled out ankle carry?

re; multiple opponents. If it's an armed robbery or self defense scenario, and our primary gun goes down is a second gun an optimal choice? If we have distance, then going to a second gun in a pocket or on our ankle is somewhat of a non-issue since distance equals time so we should be able to get our secondary pistol into play easily enough despite suboptimal location. If we don't have distance, the downed pistol in hand is a nice 1-2 pound fist-load, or a centerline belt mounted fixed blade might be a better option. If a FB isn't available then going hands on in berserker mode might be our only option since the time it would take to dig out a second pistol, not to mention a hand going to our waist/pocket/ankle is a hand that isn't protecting our melon or monitoring our opponents weapons/hands in a fight... It's also a hand that could be inflicting damage on our opponents.

[sharps54]

I'm a big fan of non dominant side pocket carry with a dominant side AIWB carry. I think it's hard to beat.

I respect that, in fact taking your class earlier this month is what prompted this thread.

In post #5 of this thread JodyH described my plan almost perfectly so it isn't just me. I understand carrying in the support side pocket for LEOs to standardize on and off duty but I'm just a regular joe. As I alluded to in the OP there are times I have to tuck my shirt in where I'll just pocket carry and if all I have is one gun I want it accessible to my strong hand. My desire for both guns to be accessible to my strong hand may be my perceived need to go to the second J frame if I have any problems or run dry.

Mr. Sharp,
I think you are answering 125 mph's post but I fully agree with your points. If you were asking me about ankle carry I have but when possible I wear shorts so I tend to look for methods that work regardless of time of year. Also I can only see doing a NY reload if the situation allows it. I have signed up for ECQC next year so hopefully I'll have a better understanding after that class.

[Paul Sharp]

....Mr. Sharp,
I think you are answering 125 mph's post but I fully agree with your points. If you were asking me about ankle carry I have but when possible I wear shorts so I tend to look for methods that work regardless of time of year. I can only see doing a NY reload if the situation allows it. I have signed up for ECQC next year so hopefully I'll have a better understanding after that class.

I was responding to your initial post. I approach this from the mindset of a fighter, and the premise that it's a fight. Not a gun fight, knife fight, koala fight... It's just a fight, and I'm a fighter so we'll get it on in whatever range and using whatever means necessary to prevail. So when I think about secondary pistols I think about the scenarios I've been in, or know about and the role the secondary pistol played. All the rules of in-fight weapon access apply, we quickly realize it's even more challenging when we start looking at the ways we are forced to carry a secondary pistol.

I think the sleight of hand type ideas suggested in the posts above are a great idea, and probably the best use of a second pistol in a contact distance incident.

[sharps54]

I was responding to your initial post. I approach this from the mindset of a fighter, and the premise that it's a fight. Not a gun fight, knife fight, koala fight... It's just a fight, and I'm a fighter so we'll get it on in whatever range and using whatever means necessary to prevail. So when I think about secondary pistols I think about the scenarios I've been in, or know about and the role the secondary pistol played. All the rules of in-fight weapon access apply, we quickly realize it's even more challenging when we start looking at the ways we are forced to carry a secondary pistol.

I think the sleight of hand type ideas suggested in the posts above are a great idea, and probably the best use of a second pistol in a contact distance incident.

Got it, thanks!

[JodyH]

I've been thinking about BUGs a lot lately. Here is my main issue. A J-Frame seems to be the best option for pocket carry and a pretty good ankle gun, too. But a 5 shot .38 is a 1 bad guy gun to me, and just last week I read about someone was robbed by two armed attackers. That person was also walking alone and the robbery happened at 12 AM or 1, and I don't do stuff like that, but still. I'd hate to be dealing with more than one opponent, the primary gun goes down hard, and I'm left with a 5 shot .38. Is that asking too much of a BUG? I don't know.

The flip side to that is I also see a lot of value in a pocket gun (which screams J-Frame to me) for exactly the reasons Jody mentioned.

I want a G26 as a back up gun to my G19. I don't know if that is realistic. I may look at a Kahr P9 on the ankle, I think that's 7 or 8+1 and around 15 oz empty. That sounds almost ideal, but I know next to nothing about Kahrs and their reliablity.

Sorry for the thread drift. But living near Chicago, BLM, and possible election fall out has put this at the forefront of my mind lately.
I primarily use a Kahr PM9 as my pocket pistol.
6+1 9mm is a decent little payload in a pocket sized package.

Kahr can be very hit or miss on what they let out of the door but the PM9 series seems to be one of their best products.
I always install a Wolff (+) recoil spring because it helps smooth up the first round from a full mag feeding into the chamber and slows the recoil impulse down just a bit.
My oldest PM9 has been 100% since day one.
My second PM9 was always reliable but cracked/broke magazine followers, 10 minutes with some jewelers files to shave a few thousandths off the bottom of the feed ramp and it's been 100% since.
Contact me via PM if you want more info on the care and feeding of Kahr PM9's.

[Cecil Burch]

There are few (realistic and plausible for civilians) situations that a good snubby carried AIWB, a second snubby in the weak side pocket, and a small fixed blade knife carried around centerline on the belt, and the SOFTWARE SKiLLSET TO POWER them won't fix.

Chuck Hagagrd and I had a couple of longggggg car rides together recently where we talked about this. He was the one who proposed the idea to me, and I tried for hours to poke holes in it, and I really couldn't. Which is no surprise since Marshall Haggard kind of knows what he is talking about. The only point I brought up that mattered was that there had to be a good software package to go along with the hardware. The person carrying this way not only had to be good at shooting a snub, they also needed to have a good H2H delivery system to keep them in a fight, as well as knowledge and practice in bringing a knife into play (not just relying on the knife itself to magically take care of the issue). and a true appreciation for the problems inherent in pocket carry - especially on the weak side (not just paying lip service to the problem, but taking steps to mitigate it as much as possible).

It is a good argument, even though I personally don't take that path (I still prefer a semi-auto for bad bad guy servings).

[JodyH]

PM9 in my pocket, P30SK AIWB, Clinch Pick centerline. That's pretty close to dual snubbies.

[ssb]

What's the reasoning behind the snub on the belt?

[Isaac]

For me, it's just for comfort. I cant handle a Glock AIWB.

My primary, in my current town and lifestyle is a snub, but if I want a 2nd gun on me, it's a G26 at 4:00 IWB.

[voodoo_man]

For those advocating other strong side pocket carry, have you drilled contact/combatives to deploy this during a struggle over your primary?

[sharps54]

There are few (realistic and plausible for civilians) situations that a good snubby carried AIWB, a second snubby in the weak side pocket, and a small fixed blade knife carried around centerline on the belt, and the SOFTWARE SKiLLSET TO POWER them won't fix.


Thank you for weighing in. As soon as my work schedule changes next month I'm joining a local BJJ dojo and I have already signed up for ECQC next year. I still need to find a local class or trainer on the knife and have a long way to go before I'll be happy with my shooting ability but I have a practice routine designed to tackle that problem.

If I could ask one follow up question it would be regarding carrying in the weak side pocket. Prdator also recommended that location over the strong side pocket, can you expand on why? I guess I view the pocket as the primary and the AIWB as the backup (accessible to both hands). I like the idea of both snubbies being accessible to my strong hand. There are also times I'll only have a pocket gun in which case I'd like the gun to always be in the same pocket.

That said I joined this forum to learn. Since my opinion is contrary to the norm I have to be willing to accept that I am the one that is doing it wrong. I'm OK with that, I would just like to understand the thought process behind it.

[sharps54]

What's the reasoning behind the snub on the belt?

The smaller, rounder butt of the revolver conceals much better with my obese body type. I have tried my Glocks (17 & 26) with a MIC holster and they just print more. I do have a Sig P290RS that I can conceal AIWB but at that point I think the ability to share reloads with a second J frame outweighs any advantages the little Sig has. That and I don't find the P290RS as ergonomic as my J frames.

[sharps54]

For those advocating other strong side pocket carry, have you drilled contact/combatives to deploy this during a struggle over your primary?

By "other side" do you mean weak or support side? I get so confused these days... disregard this, I just re-read and saw you stated other STRONG side, I missed the word "strong" first time I read it.

I personally have not tried to draw from either pocket while grappling, that is why I have signed up for ECQC but my personal plan is to try and disengage prior to drawing a second gun. The empty revolver in my hand or a knife / steel body pen (I carry either a Zebra F-701 or a cheap, slimmer steel body stylus pen combo) is what I envision using HtH.

[Mjolnir]

We're face to face. I have a gun on you and demand your wallet. Tell me how you draw AIWB without looking like you're going for a gun.

Depends on how close you are to me.

You may find your pistol hand grabbed and a knife blade working your torso...

If it doesn't feel like I can effectiveIy disarm you I simply give you the keys. Or wallet. You have $50 - a $20, a $10 and four $5 bills. Maybe a couple of singles, too.

But you'll get it off the ground.


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"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[JodyH]

For those advocating other strong side pocket carry, have you drilled contact/combatives to deploy this during a struggle over your primary?
Yes.
And "position before submission" is the rule no matter where your secondary is located.
Is drawing from a strong side pocket going to work if you've elbow pinned their hand to your strong side (establishing some control of both your weapon and their limb) going to happen... no.
But that's what the centerline clinch pick is for, or Southnarcs "elbow wrecker" move.

For me the day to day utility of having a handgun in my strong side pocket far outweighs the extreme outlier situation of fighting over my well concealed AIWB pistol.
I "meet and greet" two or three sketchy people a week with my hand on my pocket carried PM9.
In over 20 years of carrying I've not once had to fight over my AIWB/IWB handgun.

[voodoo_man]

Yes.
And "position before submission" is the rule no matter where your secondary is located.
Is drawing from a strong side pocket going to work if you've elbow pinned their hand to your strong side (establishing some control of both your weapon and their limb) going to happen... no.
But that's what the centerline clinch pick is for, or Southnarcs "elbow wrecker" move.

For me the day to day utility of having a handgun in my strong side pocket far outweighs the extreme outlier situation of fighting over my well concealed AIWB pistol.
I "meet and greet" two or three sketchy people a week with my hand on my pocket carried PM9.
In over 20 years of carrying I've not once had to fight over my AIWB/IWB handgun.

So you default to a blade before a secondary pistol.

Why carry a secondary pistol then?

So you hold your PM9 in your pocket when coming in contact with "sketchy" people, wouldn't a semi pistol fired from the pocket not cycle...wouldn't a revolver make more sense?

20 years and never had to fight over your carry gun? What happens when you go another 20 and then you have to?

[JodyH]

If I could ask one follow up question it would be regarding carrying in the weak side pocket. Prdator also recommended that location over the strong side pocket, can you expand on why? I guess I view the pocket as the primary and the AIWB as the backup (accessible to both hands). I like the idea of both snubbies being accessible to my strong hand. There are also times I'll only have a pocket gun in which case I'd like the gun to always be in the same pocket..
Proficiency with a pocket sized pistol (especially a J-frame) is hard enough to acquire and maintain strong hand. I personally just don't have time to get to a level I'd feel comfortable with weak hand.
I'm also a "keep it simple" guy and since there are many times that I'm only pocket carrying, my rule is dangerous pocket things go in my right front pocket and only my right front pocket. That's the rule when I have multiple guns, one gun, a folding knife or even just a "Pop Topper".

[Duces Tecum]

But a 5 shot .38 is a 1 bad guy gun to me, and just last week I read about someone was robbed by two armed attackers. That person was also walking alone and the robbery happened at 12 AM or 1, and I don't do stuff like that, but still. I'd hate to be dealing with more than one opponent, the primary gun goes down hard, and I'm left with a 5 shot .38.

I want a G26 as a back up gun to my G19.

Folks with more experience will be along shortly to correct me, I hope. But it seems to me a (blank) bad guy gun is more of a military concept than a civilian one. When a man is dealing with disciplined troops it's reasonable to think the guys he misses won't run the other way. But in a confrontation in da streets, it doesn't seem likely to me that, ah, indigenous personal will run towards the gunfire. So I would think it unlikely that a person will fire 15+ reasonably well placed rounds and find himself looking for reload. He'll probably have the street pretty much to himself.

That said, I believe it is wise to carry more than one gun. BBI emphasized that the point of the second gun is to provide alternate (situationally better) access. That sounds spot on. Personally, I think a G17/19 and a G26 is a natural. In my mind, if your BUG takes the same magazines as your primary, you have two primaries, with at least one available to you while standing and the other when sitting. That sounds like a good thing to me.

[JodyH]

So you default to a blade before a secondary pistol.

Why carry a secondary pistol then?

So you hold your PM9 in your pocket when coming in contact with "sketchy" people, wouldn't a semi pistol fired from the pocket not cycle...wouldn't a revolver make more sense?

20 years and never had to fight over your carry gun? What happens when you go another 20 and then you have to?
No, I default to establishing a dominant position before I try to access any backup weapon. And the backup plan I use will be entirely situational dependent.

If you'd read my post, my second pistol is another option. The ability to have a non-telegraphed sub-1 second draw to hit is why I pocket carry.
The ability to bring more firepower to the party in an easier to shoot (although somewhat slower and more obvious to deploy) package is why I carry a larger pistol AIWB.

Firing from inside a front pants pocket? Really?
So, I'd have to draw my handgun from my pocket holster, rotate it inside the front pocket and then pull the trigger...
Duluth cargo pants pockets are big, but they're not that damn big.

Now, from inside a hoody pocket, that's another story and why I always have a J-frame in my center console for late night cool weather fill ups.

With my BJJ and MT training, I'm good with my chances of maintaining distance and controlling an entanglement.

[Mitch]

The ability to have a non-telegraphed sub-1 second draw to hit is why I pocket carry.
The ability to bring more firepower to the party in an easier to shoot (although somewhat slower and more obvious to deploy) package is why I carry a larger pistol AIWB.That makes a ton of sense and may be the way I go if I start carrying a second gun, be it a J-frame or something like a PM9.

Paul's point about getting to a back up if the primary shits the bed also made a ton of sense. If we go by what Tom Givens said about most fights being over in 3 seconds by the time guns come out, the odds of getting a second pistol deployed from a pocket or an ankle seem long at best. At that point best option is probably to keep fighting with hands and a deadlined pistol that just became a bludgeon. I've got a good BJJ, Judo, and boxing background, if that happens then it's time to go to work.

I'm sure I'll probably be in the minority here, but I don't carry a knife on me. There's a few reasons for that, one being local knife laws confuse the fuck out of me and it's not worth it to me to get tripped up. Another one though is that I don't like having multiple things on my belt to possibly defend if things go sideways and I get entangled.

[M2CattleCo]

We're face to face. I have a gun on you and demand your wallet. Tell me how you draw AIWB without looking like you're going for a gun.

I pull a handful of cash out of my pocket (carried outside the wallet) and toss it to the side and hope affords me the opportunity to get off the X and get access to my pistol. Standing squared off, and drawing on a drawn gun ain't something I'd want to in real time.

[GJM]

I read where Tom Givens went from snubbie to Kahr as a BUG this summer.

[TGS]

I want a G26 as a back up gun to my G19. I don't know if that is realistic. I may look at a Kahr P9 on the ankle, I think that's 7 or 8+1 and around 15 oz empty. That sounds almost ideal, but I know next to nothing about Kahrs and their reliablity.

I've got an Alessi pattern ankle rig from John Ralston (5 shot leather) for my Kahr PM9. Even with the PM9 I had him modify it and put a slight forward cant into it, as it printed in my Kuhl pants which are a little more tapered than my jeans. Granted, the more pressing matter was the thumb break digging into my calf (which the forward cant fixed), but concealment was also factor in me wanting it modified.

If you wear loose cut jeans a P9 might work, but make sure to get a forward cant.

You can always use 7 or 8 round mags with the PM9, as well. That makes it a more versatile pistol than the P9.

[JodyH]

You can always use 7 or 8 round mags with the PM9, as well. That makes it a more versatile pistol than the P9.
The PM9 is very sensitive to magazine tilt causing feed stoppages when using the longer mags. Basically your finger pressure rearward on the end of the unsupported extended magazine body causes the top of the mag to tilt forward and the bullets to nose dive into the feed ramp.
The PM9 is notorious for jamming with the extended magazines.

[Cecil Burch]

Thank you for weighing in. As soon as my work schedule changes next month I'm joining a local BJJ dojo and I have already signed up for ECQC next year. I still need to find a local class or trainer on the knife and have a long way to go before I'll be happy with my shooting ability but I have a practice routine designed to tackle that problem.

If I could ask one follow up question it would be regarding carrying in the weak side pocket. Prdator also recommended that location over the strong side pocket, can you expand on why? I guess I view the pocket as the primary and the AIWB as the backup (accessible to both hands). I like the idea of both snubbies being accessible to my strong hand. There are also times I'll only have a pocket gun in which case I'd like the gun to always be in the same pocket.

That said I joined this forum to learn. Since my opinion is contrary to the norm I have to be willing to accept that I am the one that is doing it wrong. I'm OK with that, I would just like to understand the thought process behind it.

The way I view it is the AIWB is primary and the pocket is for when 1) I can't get to the holstered one because I an using that arm to control the attachment, 2) the primary craps out, or 3) the primary is empty.

Pocket carry sucks, especially as a primary. It is much harder to draw from then most people think when conditions are not optimal i.e. when you are not stationary, completely upright, on flat, even ground. Try doing it from movement, or when the body is compressed in some way like when you are hunched over, of god forbid sitting down. Working pocket carry from a car seat, against an attacker in the car or just outside it and moving fast is an immense PIA which is massively compounded when someone does not have an understanding of how to use your hips to adjust. Can it be done? Sure. I have done the work and have a pretty good grasp on it. But it takes a lot of work, and is something that should not be done lightly.

All of that is worsened a bit by doing it with your weak hand (As Jody pointed out), but even strong hand I don't think it is optimal. A good holster is going to beat pocket carry most of the time, so I prefer my go-to move to be that. Can someone like Jody make it workable? Sure, because he has put in so much time actually working the draw/shooting, as well as a metric ton of hands on work against a resisting opponent who has freedom of action. But for me, I still prefer my set up as often as possible. It simplifies my work.

And I am really down on the idea of having both guns accessible to both hands - it is a great idea that tends to break down in actual practice. What usually happens is that the carry in that manner becomes far easier for the opponent to foul, and ends up not working with either hand and you can't draw under stress of contact. If you can always be assured of being 100% switched on and aware, and can always get a hand on the gun in the pocket before the opponent gets too close, then it is great. Unfortunately, fights tend to happen under less than ideal conditions. What usually is a better working solution against most plausible situations is having a gun dedicated to a side, and having the centerline blade accessible to either hand.

As for the idea on consistency with your use of pure pocket carry at times - sure, that is something to think about, but the above issues are more worrisome to me, so I will devote x amount of more time to training/practice to deal with different carry methods.

This is just my opinion, based on my experiences.

[sharps54]

The way I view it is the AIWB is primary and the pocket is for when 1) I can't get to the holstered one because I an using that arm to control the attachment, 2) the primary craps out, or 3) the primary is empty.

Pocket carry sucks, especially as a primary.
SNIP
This is just my opinion, based on my experiences.

Thank you for taking the time to explain. That all makes sense. An efficient presentation from the pocket requires both prior knowledge of the threat so you can already have your hand on the gun and for you to be in the right body posture. In a situation that requires pure reaction I can see where the pocket will lose to AIWB every time (sure there may be rare exceptions like the pocket of a winter coat in sub-zero temps). It is also easier to access the handgun in a wider variety of positions in AIWB compared to pocket carry.

Light bulb lit, I can see why the AIWB should be the primary if I'm wearing both. That doesn't mean Jody is wrong, but if I'm going to consider AIWB as primary I can see why I should carry the back up in my support side pocket.

[JodyH]

Really, you shouldn't think of it as primary, secondary, tertiary, etc.
It should be what tool is best for the job at hand.
I don't carry a primary, a BUG and a last resort knife, I have three options in three locations.
Most of my day to day interactions with shitheads are the typical panhandler approach, ie: I have plenty of time to prepare ahead of time so I usually plan around my pocket pistol.
If I'm at a urinal I may instead think about the centerline clinch pick since its a confined space and my hands are in the general area already.
If it's a sweaty bearded guy in a man dress at the mall with a duffle bag acting like he's anticipating some virgins I'll start planning a FAST from the AIWB.

[sharps54]

That all makes sense, it is important to know your options and be flexible enough to adapt to the situation. Still I can only reach a pocket gun with one hand or the other. I'm probably over thinking which side pocket to use, time for me to start using that mental energy for more useful things...

[Willard]

I read where Tom Givens went from snubbie to Kahr as a BUG this summer.

Was it a polymer or steel version? Never owned one, but keep reading about reliability issues, particularly with the polymer. Always liked the way they looked and slim profile though.

[JodyH]

Was it a polymer or steel version? Never owned one, but keep reading about reliability issues, particularly with the polymer. Always liked the way they looked and slim profile though.
About 3/4 of the "poor reliability" reports you read are from people who don't read the Kahr manual.

#1 complaint on the 'net:
If you slingshot the slide, the majority of the time the first round from a full magazine will nose dive into the feed ramp.
If you use the slide release lever like the manual tells you to, it'll feed every time.
Adding a Wolff (+) recoil spring helps with slingshot feed reliability tremendously.
No big deal to me since I don't carry a spare magazine for it anyway.

If you reassemble it incorrectly after field stripping by getting the slide release lever spring under instead of over the little tab, the slide will lock open at random times.

Magazines that are carried loose in a pocket will spit out rounds, use a mag carrier and it's not an issue.

Then there are two known issues that crop up every once in a while that are Kahr's fault.
If the barrel feed ramp is a few thousandths too long it'll impact the magazine followers and crack/break then regularly. Shave it down with a jewelers file and it's GTG.
The slide lock lever has a tab that the mag follower pushes up on to lock open the slide on empty. That tab does not play well with certain bullet profiles and can get bumped up prematurely locking the slide open with ammo still in the gun. You can slightly trim the tab with a file or do like I did and just find a more tapered bullet. I use Black Hills Tac-XP +P in all my pistols and it works great in the PM9's.

This is off topic, so if anyone wants more info on the care and feeding of Kahr PM9's contact me via PM or email.

[Randy Harris]

Getting in here way late, but I carry AIWB ...actually more at about 1.5 to 2 o'clock with G34 or G17. My "auxiliary gun" will normally be in left front pocket. Depending on wardrobe it will be either a G26 or SW J frame. Fixed blade knife is carried at 11 o'clock and folder is carried clipped in left rear pocket. With this setup I have a gun available to either hand, centerline carried fixed blade available to access in a clinch with either hand and a "utility" folder to openly use to cut things and not spook the herd that is also available to my left hand in case of emergency.

Also the pocket carry allows (like JodyH mentions) the ability to preemptively establish grip on a small gun without alerting everyone on the street. If I end up in a struggle then it is all about position first and THEN accessing something (normally the knife in a clinch) if needed to get them off of me. Not every problem requires a tool to solve. It is not a race to see just how many tools I can throw into the mix while in the clinch to wrestle over. Tools are great...but position is better.

If I'm wearing jeans (no...not skinny jeans) then the ankle holster is an option because the pockets in jeans are harder to pull a gun from than regular pants. A Jframe is workable, but a G26 just will not work for me in jeans. So if I'm carrying the 26 as my auxiliary gun in jeans then it will have to be in an ankle holster. I also use an ankle holster for auxiliary gun for church as drawing it from a seated position is a lot easier than from standing and easier to draw from an ankle rig than from a pocket while seated...and I'm sitting a lot in church.

Or in case you don't like pocket carry or ankle carry you could also roll with an AIWB holster for the J frame which might also be an option for the original poster. If you are good with a jframe on the strong side you can see if one works for you on the weak side too.

I also know someone who carries their J frame backup gun at 8 o'clock behind their weak side hip and that works for him. That way he has a gun available to either hand but does not have to go inside a pocket or down to the ankle to access it.

If I'm in swim trunks (not while IN the pool) or any nylon shorts without a belt I normally roll with 2 j frames in Thunderwear or Smartcarry. But that setup is just too uncomfy for use with pants for me but works well with trunks, board shorts, etc......just my opinion. In that case for the knife I clip a folder in the waistband or clip the clinchpick teklok over the waistband.

[Rex G]

I carry my duty pistol (police) at 0300, and prefer the consistency of carrying at or very near 0300 24/7/365, so AIWB would be my second handgun during personal time. I have tended to carry revolvers right AIWB, not finding an auto that worked well for me AIWB until recently. When I finally run enough ammo through my G26*, it will be riding "lefty AIWB" in a Raven Concealment Systems ACR.

There being no actual appendix on the left side, I reckon it could be called LICIWB; Left Inguinal Crease IWB. ;) This would allow easier left-hand access, and perhaps be a first step toward my left hand becoming my default weapon hand, probably post-retirement. From right rotator cuff to right elbow to right wrist to right thumb, my right hand and arm are not aging well as my left. (I already shoot long guns lefty, am left-eye-dominant, and write lefty. Long story short, I was born complicated.)

*I know that short weapons, carried IWB, can tend to flop over the belt. This will be taken under advisement as part of my long-term evaluation of the G26/ACR combo.

[Imaposer2]

*I know that short weapons, carried IWB, can tend to flop over the belt. This will be taken under advisement as part of my long-term evaluation of the G26/ACR combo.

I keep seeing references to this and have yet to experience it. Maybe it depends of build or something, or maybe I'm just built weird. I routinely carry either a J-frame or an LCR AIWB and just cant see how it could happen without an awful lot of force being applied outwardly on the grip, and probably an attendant severe bruise to my upper groin/lower abdominal area. Maybe I just wear my belt tighter than some, or something... but I can't for the life of me see how there's room for the gun to pivot around my beltline enough for the muzzle to come out. Just recently started experimenting with my G36 AIWB and can't see it happening with that gun either. Am I doing something wrong?

[JodyH]

I think it's more rotation making for inconsistency in grip location than flopping out that's the issue, especially higher riding holsters and short slide pistols.
That's the main reason I prefer rough out leather low ride holsters for pistols like the P30SK.

[Imaposer2]

I could see that. I just keep seeing references to "roll out" or "flopping out", etc and have just been having difficulty understanding the issue. Even with rotation though, I'd think the belt and fit of the connection to the belt would be more important that muzzle length.

[JodyH]

Never carried a P7M8 have you?

[Imaposer2]

Never carried a P7M8 have you?

Ahhhh... One of my grail guns from my younger days in the 80's... Nope, never owned one, but I can see your point with the weight distribution and front strap/cocker to muzzle relationship. I could maybe see it with the G26/27 as well, although the shortest semi I've carried AIWB thus far has been my G36.

[MGW]

Was it a polymer or steel version? Never owned one, but keep reading about reliability issues, particularly with the polymer. Always liked the way they looked and slim profile though.

I talked to him at a class a couple months ago about BUGs. If I remember correctly he said it was a P9. He's not pocket carrying though. Doesn't like pocket carry at all.


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[TGS]

The PM9 is very sensitive to magazine tilt causing feed stoppages when using the longer mags. Basically your finger pressure rearward on the end of the unsupported extended magazine body causes the top of the mag to tilt forward and the bullets to nose dive into the feed ramp.
The PM9 is notorious for jamming with the extended magazines.

I know this is something that is taken as truth on the internet, but my PM9 has had no problems with either of my 7 round mags with my various FMJ practice rounds, Hydrashock, and Gold Dot G2 duty ammo.

[sharps54]

Back to BUG location for a moment, do those with experience (from training or real life) feel a gun in the pocket is less of a liability when going hands on?

I have zero experience here but I would assume that if an opponent is aware you have a weapon you are more likely to have to protect it. If you are rolling around with someone my understanding is that they will quickly be aware of any weapons on your belt line. So if you carry your primary at 3:00 and your BUG at 8:00 and you end up on the ground you have two weapons to protect.

Is a pocket gun less likely to be a problem? More likely to slip out while you are "rolling"? I assume I'll find out at ECQC but I'm interested in reading what everyone thinks. I could see where an ankle gun would be more secure only because those holsters tend to have more retention than pocket holsters. Of course this may be an argument for something like the Alabama kydex pocket holster where you have to use your thumb to push the gun out of the holster...

[Hi-Point Aficionado]

Dumping a gun out of a pocket is, on average, a concern. Just using ~a holster~ in ~a pair of pants~ is a recipe for the ass-puckering clunk.

But, as with belt carry, gear selection can make all the difference. Using a good pocket holster provides a little retention to the gun. Kydex obviously can do its thing. Leather can drag on the gun to help retain it and/or form a bit into the ejection port. Synthetic pocket holsters are usually pretty slick but can also form into the trigger guard or ejection port for adequate retention. The DeSantis Nemesis having done the latter on every mousegun I've seen/used.

Having pants that leave the pocket accessible to a reliable draw is handy and the pocket can also sometimes be angled to help retain the gun from just flopping out. Put a bit more thought into your pants.

Once you have the trousers chosen, picking a quality holster cut to fit it is the best bet. Rounded vs. flat bottomed, hook/tab/flap on the holster cut to engage that pocket, and breaking in leather or synthetic to get the mild retention started. I dislike kydex pocket holsters for the way they chew up my pants a bit faster than leather but use one in my cycling jersey. The bottom is flat and wide with the thumb tab tweaked to best try catching the elastic hem of the pocket on a draw and a generous hook to snag should that fail. While that holster won't even work in many of my pants, it is made for the one use to be as secure in my jersey as I can make it. Also chose hot pink as an easy to spot un-natural color so I can find it if it were to skitter off the shoulder of the road in a wipeout. My softshell ski pants have zippered pockets so retention is perfectly positive there.

Anyway, a reasonably thought out pocket rig in a pocket that works for your body and lifestyle isn't any more likely to get dumped than a belt gun in an open top.

[Cecil Burch]

Back to BUG location for a moment, do those with experience (from training or real life) feel a gun in the pocket is less of a liability when going hands on?

I have zero experience here but I would assume that if an opponent is aware you have a weapon you are more likely to have to protect it. If you are rolling around with someone my understanding is that they will quickly be aware of any weapons on your belt line. So if you carry your primary at 3:00 and your BUG at 8:00 and you end up on the ground you have two weapons to protect.

Is a pocket gun less likely to be a problem? More likely to slip out while you are "rolling"? I assume I'll find out at ECQC but I'm interested in reading what everyone thinks. I could see where an ankle gun would be more secure only because those holsters tend to have more retention than pocket holsters. Of course this may be an argument for something like the Alabama kydex pocket holster where you have to use your thumb to push the gun out of the holster...

It is irrelevant where you carry in an entanglement. There is no place that is better than others. With a gun carried forward of the hips, it MAY be that the bad guy is quicker to realize you are armed. This is offset because it is easier to protect him from getting it because it is positioned for your arms and elbows to defend more strongly than behind the hip.

Protecting your weapon is something you have to do whether he knows you have it or not. ASSuming he does not know you have one is a bad mistake that can cost you big. It has zero to do with gear/hardware, and everything to do with software (skill set). Regardless of whether a weapon is in play or not, you need to always do the same things - control your opponent's arms, and move into a superior controlling position. One of the reasons for BJJ success on the ground is those two things are at the heart of every tactic and technique in BJJ, regardless of "street vs sport" and regardless of whether weapons or strikes are a possibility or not.

Any carry that makes it harder for a bad guy to get off of you is by defacto also makes it harder for you to access.

As for a gun slipping out of the pocket? Not likely, unless you are foolish enough to just shove a gun in your pocket without some kind of holster. I have never had a pistol slip out when fighting on the ground. And I have done a metric ton of that against some of the best BJJ black belts around, as well as guys who are highly experienced in fighting in a weapon based environment (WBE).

Ankle guns suck in any kind of entanglement. Period. Trying to get a gun out of there when you are wrapped up with another person(s), may be the definition of futility.