Glock vs M&P, pure shootability [Archive]

GJM

11-10-2011, 05:26 PM

On our recent visit to the Rogers School, the Glock pistol was most prevalent, followed by the M&P.

I asked Bill Rogers what his choice would be to shoot the Rogers School test, and he said without a doubt an M&P 9. He also said that if he needed to take one pistol to a bad place, it would be a Glock 17, because of the simplicity, maturity and reliability of that firearm. When I posed the same question to Ronnie Dowd, Bill's number two at the school, he also answered that the M&P 9 would be his choice.

I shot an M&P at Rogers, and in my testing on the timer before and afterwards, I shoot the M&P between 7-10 per cent better than a Glock. On the FASTest for example, my reloads average .3 faster, and my splits on the body are also .03-.05 faster with the M&P. Reloads, besides being faster, are much more consistent with the M&P, as occasionally I completely hose one up with the Glock. Time to the first shot is very similar between the two pistols for me.

My wife is left handed, a dedicated Glock shooter, and she shot a G17 at Rogers. I have been pestering her to try an M&P, for the above reasons, and because I think it offers some advantages for a left hand shooter. At the end of a range session this afternoon, I just stuck my M&P 9 in her hand. From the first magazine, she shot it very well, with better times than with her G17, on the standard Rogers practice drills we do. I then handed her an M&P 9 Compact, and she shot that great as well. She offered that maybe my idea wasn't so dumb after all. Guess I will have to get busy and get her some left hand holsters for the M&P full size and compact.

With the M&P, I am still trying to decide whether I prefer the Apex FSS or DC trigger. The FSS is very 1911 like, and great on low probability targets at speed, but the DC rolls some, which makes one hand shooting easier for me.

jar

11-10-2011, 05:33 PM

I haven't had a chance to try one yet, but Apex makes it sound like using the FSS on a defensive gun without a manual safety is a bad idea. Whether that's a reasonable concern or a CYA move on their part I don't know.

I haven't put it on the timer against other guns since I switched to the M&P from a Browning Hi-Power, but the ergonomics and shootability of the M&P subjectively feel great. I did better in IDPA matches with the M&P compact than the BHP right out of the gate when I switched. When I got the Pro series 5", it literally felt like cheating.

5pins

11-10-2011, 05:41 PM

Interesting that he would recommend the M&P for his school but a Glock if going to a “bad place”.

I like my G19 much more then my M&P.

iakdrago

11-10-2011, 06:47 PM

Interesting that he would recommend the M&P for his school but a Glock if going to a “bad place”.

I like my G19 much more then my M&P.

I have both glock19 and m&p9--the m&p9 is what i prefer to shoot:
--it fits my hand better--It's more slender at the top as well as longer. I don't notice the difference when shooting for groups, however (for me) it makes a HUGE difference when shooting at speed. Also the m&p lacks that annoying hump at the bottom of the grip.
--It's definitely more ergonomic. I can drop the magazine without breaking my grip with the m&p and not with the gen 3 g19.
--Stock trigger: i prefer the smooth single action trigger to the glock 2 stage
--stock sights--m&p9 are steel, and also allow me to better see my target (not obscured by the sight).

Again, this is the comparison how it affects me. After i warm up, i shoot both guns equally accurately at range for groups (~4'' at 25 yards one giant hole at 7) While shooting cold--i sho&p9 better (i attribute that to ergonomics). At speed there is no comparison.

YMMV

DocGKR

11-10-2011, 07:42 PM

Tamara

11-10-2011, 07:49 PM

I think size 10 shoes are the most comfortable.

JRCHolsters

11-10-2011, 07:59 PM

The Glock 17 1st Gen fits my hand the best, all the rest just suck for me personally. I would have to go with the M&P if I couldn't have a Gen1 Glock. It's all in the ergonomics ;)

iakdrago

11-10-2011, 08:13 PM

I think size 10 shoes are the most comfortable.

are those the ones that stick out passed the grip and take the .45 laces?

jetfire

11-11-2011, 02:25 AM

I think size 10 shoes are the most comfortable.

Dude, from now on when someone asks me "Glock vs. M&P" I'm just going to say this. That's some ninja-zen shit.

Nephrology

11-12-2011, 02:05 PM

Well being that I own Glocks and do not own M&Ps, I logically conclude that I must shoot Glocks best!

Honestly I think theyre both great guns I am just think that in my shoes it isn't worth the several hundred dollars (if not more like thousands) I'd lose out on switching from one to the other even IF ithe guns gave me slightly different split times. I definitely can't outshoot my Glocks yet... maybe when I can I'll give the M&Ps a try :p

jlw

11-12-2011, 06:07 PM

Depends. Does the M&P have an Apex sear in it? If not, it need not apply.

A standard Glock trigger will work for me.

In my personal experience, the Glock has proven to be more reliable.

Tamara

11-12-2011, 08:30 PM

In my personal experience, the Glock has proven to be more reliable.

I haven't had a malf'ed Glock in my hand since... '01? But then, I haven't shot a lot of Glocks since then. (Seen a few broken ones since then, but other people were shooting them...)

Never had a malf'ed M&P in my hand, but I've probably only put 3,000 rounds or so through M&P's. That early-unlocking thing is kinda creepy, though.

You pays your money and you takes your chances. Neither one's really known for choking, at least on the scale that most people shoot pistols.

jlw

11-12-2011, 09:12 PM

I haven't had a malf'ed Glock in my hand since... '01? But then, I haven't shot a lot of Glocks since then. (Seen a few broken ones since then, but other people were shooting them...)

Never had a malf'ed M&P in my hand, but I've probably only put 3,000 rounds or so through M&P's. That early-unlocking thing is kinda creepy, though.

You pays your money and you takes your chances. Neither one's really known for choking, at least on the scale that most people shoot pistols.

I did a T&E on an M&P40 when they first were released. I didn't fire another round through an M&P until a few months ago when I got an M&P45 for IDPA CDP. I have classified with it, shot a sanctioned match with it, and qualified with it on the state's course. When I classified, I had one instance of a failure to lock up on an empty mag. In the sanctioned match, I had a repeat of the failure to lock open and another instance of a failure to feed. It ran clean when I qualified with it, but it should be noted that we only load to six rounds on the state course as it is revolver neutral. After the sanctioned match, I numbered my mags so that I can track any future malfunctions. I shot a 100 and a 99.3 on the state course.

I did actually have a malfunction with a G17/3 the other day, but that wasn't under "normal" circumstances.

Fly320s

11-13-2011, 12:55 PM

I think size 10 shoes are the most comfortable.

I prefer warm weather to cold.

5pins

11-13-2011, 08:56 PM

I had my first malfunction with my M&P two weeks ago; it was a failure to feed. It was with some crappy ammo after about 250 rounds. At that point the magazines stop dropping free also. I have had a few more with my G19 but I have been shooting it since 93.

JHC

11-14-2011, 09:54 AM

For my money, pure shootability has a major accuracy component. I finally got around to the Sweet Sixteen drill yesterday and used it to warm up (literally also) so the first shot of the drill was the first shot of the day. I made it back to 23 yards with 15 hits on the 3x5 card. Did it with a Glock RTF2 G17 and Warren Sevigny Carry sights, and a minus connector. I could not have done that with my Pro 9 in a million years as it would not group for sh#%. So in my limited experience, awesome reloads of the M&P didn't make it all that shootable IMO.

GJM

11-14-2011, 05:31 PM

JHC, after reading your post this morning, I ran outside on this cold and windy day, to shoot some quick groups with 2 M&P Pro's, an M&P FS, and a Gen 4 Glock 17. Range was 23 yards, because there was a rock there that would keep my rear end out of the snow and dirt. I grabbed some American Eagle 115 grain and Winchester white box 115 grain, since those are common practice rounds. My position was sitting on the rock, and I tried to do each group quickly. I shot five round groups on an old target I had, prettied up with an orange aiming dot.

My "old" M&P Pro with Winchester white box:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/OldPro.jpg

My other M&P Pro with Federal AE:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/newPro.jpg

My older M&P 9 FS with Federal, and I called one shot a flyer when I mashed the trigger:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/FSWWB.jpg

My Gen 4, G17 with Winchester:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/GlockWWB.jpg

I have no reason to doubt your problems with the M&P 9 pistols, and while I think the FS 9 and G17 I have, shoot somewhat better than either Pro, I don't view it as enough to cause me to pick one over the other. I didn't shoot carry ammo, which in my experience does better with the M&P 9's. My M&P mid-size 45's shoot very well with ball and JHP ammo. Am looking forward to an Apex barrel for the 9 Pro's.

JHC

11-14-2011, 08:38 PM

I have no reason to doubt your problems with the M&P 9 pistols,.

As well you shouldn't. ;) And it was only one pistol that I don't think ever quite grouped 5" at 25 yds rested. It was like the ones some of the USPSA guys on Enos' board were complaining about for a few years before the early unlocking thing was confirmed. Could too easily out shoot that pistol once the range got out past 12-15 yds.

Mine was a 2010 gun. Older is better for M&P 9mm's I suppose (prior the compact model). Todd's endurance gun was certainly a tack driver.

GJM

11-14-2011, 10:26 PM

JHC

11-15-2011, 10:43 AM

Two more comments:

1) I shot the Gen 4 17 last, and I had the distinct impression that its recoil impulse was softer than the 3 M&P pistols I shot right before. Could have been my imagination?

2) After reading Todd's report on the new LW - connector, and encouraged by Todd's probably overly modest assessment of his gunsmithing ability, I decided to see if I could change the dot connector to the new LW connector, knowing that I would starve if I had to make my living fixing mechanical things. I got on the IPhone with my buddy, got the Glock apart, ran into a snag, got FaceTime running on the IPhone, and got the job done. Then changed out two more, solo, in just a few minutes. Not sure what I liked more, the new LW - connector, or being able to wrench some on the Glock.

Funny, the other day I fired several magazines through a VTAC M&P (after all Glock for many months) and thought the VTAC guns recoil impulse to the palm was noticeably softer albeit the front sight jumps more. OTOH, I was one of the Gen 4 G17 early adopters that raved how flat the gun ran in strings of fire, yet now I can't tell the diff between it and a RTF2 G17. :o I need to take myself with a grain of salt. The quick swapping out of components to try on the G's is fun for me too as I have previously avoided much gunsmithing.

RKflorida

11-15-2011, 12:59 PM

I think size 10 shoes are the most comfortable.

I agree. I have a size 9 foot and size 10 shoes felt so good, I bought 12's.

mizer67

11-15-2011, 07:37 PM

Funny, the other day I fired several magazines through a VTAC M&P (after all Glock for many months) and thought the VTAC guns recoil impulse to the palm was noticeably softer albeit the front sight jumps more. OTOH, I was one of the Gen 4 G17 early adopters that raved how flat the gun ran in strings of fire, yet now I can't tell the diff between it and a RTF2 G17. :o I need to take myself with a grain of salt. The quick swapping out of components to try on the G's is fun for me too as I have previously avoided much gunsmithing.

My M&Ps shoot softer. They are also more reliable (for me) than my G4 G17, which has serious ejection issues. Reloads are faster, and they're fully ambi which as a lefty makes malf. clearances a bit easier and faster as well. They're what I shoot most right now.

However, they do not shoot as flat unless you use lots of grip tape or stippling (more muzzle rise as you noted). The stock grips are fairly slippery compared to a RTF or G4. The G4 texturing really locks down the pistol in my hand.

My G4 is also more accurate at distance. My 2011 M&P 9mm with about ~9K through it so far shoots high and the groups are poor at 25 yards, particularly with heavier bullets. I'm working on finding a fast 115 gr load that shoots well while waiting on a fix (new locking blocks).

JHC

11-15-2011, 07:43 PM

. . . while waiting on a fix (new locking blocks).

When those arrive (plus the fitted BarSto barrel) those M&Ps will be sick. Randy Lee is pretty sure of seeing 1" 25 yard potential in there. :D

Doug

11-15-2011, 10:28 PM

I currently am qualified on both Glock and M&P, however when assessing times and scores, I objectively shoot the M&P better than the Glock and find the M&P more ergonomic and comfortable to shoot. On the other hand, the Glock is a bit easier to service and parts are available world wide.

Recently I shot several of the DOW's using a G17 and M&P45. In virtually every drill, I shot more accurately and faster with the M&P, even though it was a larger caliber. If I didn't live in a state that illogically restricts newly purchased pistols to 10 rd mags, along with already possessing over 100 legal pre-ban G17 mags, I'd likely switch to the M&P9 w/ambi-safety.

I love the M&P, but stick with the Glock for the same mag reasons.

As a reserve Cali LEO, aren't you able to buy hi-cap mags as an exemption or is that only for full time LEOs?

If it is only for full time, that sucks!

"(20)The sale to, lending to, transfer to, purchase by, receipt of, or importation into this state of, a large-capacity magazine by a sworn peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2 who is authorized to carry a firearm in the course and scope of his or her duties."

nwhpfan

11-16-2011, 01:19 AM

I like them both but prefer the M&P. I shot a G35 for a long time and my finger used to drag on the bottom of the trigger guard. Very annoying. Doesn't happen with the M&P so it's what I prefer.

DocGKR

11-16-2011, 01:21 AM

Reserve LE officers can purchase standard capacity magazines for duty use. However, there is a gray area, as Reserve officers are required to get a civilian CCW to carry off-duty within the the state of CA, although that is clouded by LEOSA/HR218 issues. In addition, once any officer retires in CA--Reserve of full-time, they are supposed to turn in all their post ban standard capacity magazines and only use 10-rounders...

theblacknight

11-18-2011, 08:00 PM

anyone know why Smith hasnt made a G19 clone yet? I'd love to have a M&P mid, but dont want to have 2 calibers going on.

nwhpfan

11-18-2011, 09:55 PM

anyone know why Smith hasnt made a G19 clone yet? I'd love to have a M&P mid, but dont want to have 2 calibers going on.

I think they decided to focus their attention on their version of the Taurus Judge:D

ToddG

11-19-2011, 10:27 AM

anyone know why Smith hasnt made a G19 clone yet? I'd love to have a M&P mid, but dont want to have 2 calibers going on.

Because their full size is smaller than a G17, and their compact is larger than a G26, making a "mid-size" less appealing to the masses because it won't really be much different than either of the other two.

Candidly, I think the M&P Compact is a better size choice for folks who don't want to carry a full size gun. It's just enough smaller than a G19 that it will make a difference for the folks who don't want to dress around the gun, and it's still big enough for most people to achieve a full size grip, get a decent sight radius, carry plenty of bullets, etc.

Tamara

11-19-2011, 11:11 AM

Candidly, I think the M&P Compact is a better size choice for folks who don't want to carry a full size gun. It's just enough smaller than a G19 that it will make a difference for the folks who don't want to dress around the gun, and it's still big enough for most people to achieve a full size grip, get a decent sight radius, carry plenty of bullets, etc.

I'm kinda wrestling with this right now, in that I need to get a backup for my M&P and I'm debating whether it should be another FS gun or a compact. I hadn't really paid attention to the compact thus far because I equated it with the dinky G26/Kahr-size guns.

My fingers are skinny enough that I can get a full four-finger grip on a G29/G30. If I can get four fingers on a M&P-9C, I might go with that option. (Which should negate any chance of the early-unlocking bugaboo, right?)

mnealtx

11-19-2011, 12:07 PM

I'm kinda wrestling with this right now, in that I need to get a backup for my M&P and I'm debating whether it should be another FS gun or a compact. I hadn't really paid attention to the compact thus far because I equated it with the dinky G26/Kahr-size guns.

My fingers are skinny enough that I can get a full four-finger grip on a G29/G30. If I can get four fingers on a M&P-9C, I might go with that option. (Which should negate any chance of the early-unlocking bugaboo, right?)

Lemme know how it works out for you, Tam - I'm playing with the idea of a 9C to backstop my FS, as well.

jlw

11-19-2011, 01:22 PM

A midsize M&P9 really holds no interest to me as I would still stick with the G19. However, the midsize M&P45 is near perfect blend of of ergonomics for a carry gun. The M&P45 compact is a nice size as well.

GJM

11-19-2011, 01:53 PM

While I shoot a Pro better than the FS M&P 9, I shoot the mid-size 45 better than the full size M&P 45, which is a happy thing since I frequently carry a mid size with thumb safety.

GJM

12-30-2011, 07:51 PM

After 45 days of shooting a Glock almost exclusively, and about 3,000-4,000 rounds down range, I spent some time shooting an M&P 40 FS today. I shot enough rounds to have it very apparent, I shoot an M&P measurably better than a Glock. Even shooting .40, I was seeing .21 splits on Bill drills, which is faster than I can shoot a Glock 17. Beyond splits, reloading the M&P is easier, as is getting my finger into the larger trigger guard on the M&P when shooting from the extended, confirmed ready. Really like the Apex DCAEK trigger.

Westtexasrancher

10-09-2013, 09:25 AM

When those arrive (plus the fitted BarSto barrel) those M&Ps will be sick. Randy Lee is pretty sure of seeing 1" 25 yard potential in there. :D

Are the locking blocks coming from s&w or aftermsrket?

Just realized I bumped a ridiculously old thread. Sorry guys.

Can an old m&p be made to shoot well now? Did a new locking block ever come out? I may have a few year old used m&p and want to make sire I can improve the accuracy. My gen 4 19 could keep them all in a 3x5 with me shooting off hand, and I'm not real good.

JHC

10-09-2013, 10:59 AM

Chefdog

10-09-2013, 11:23 AM

I was under the (mistaken?) impression that the acuracy issues came about after the M&P had been out for a few years. I've put a few thousand rounds through a 2006 FS 9mm, and while I'm not a "good shot" by the standards of most here, I've never noticed any issues with particular example. I also don't remember reading the same type of chatter when I was surfing around the m&p forum back in the day. Todd shot my gun a couple times way back when he was shooting his m&p, and the only comment was that my front sight was slightly off. I'm pretty confident that even if I couldn't notice a problem, that Todd could, and wouldn't hold back from saying so.

Anyway, I'm sure someone else with better information will be along to help you out.

awmp

10-09-2013, 02:06 PM

Still wondering this today.
anyone know why Smith hasnt made a G19 clone yet? I'd love to have a M&P mid, but dont want to have 2 calibers going on.

I have both Glocks and M&P. Carry the G19 for CCW but enjoy shooing both.

GJM

10-09-2013, 02:32 PM

Mods, how do I put "myself" on the ignore list, so I don't have to read what I said in years past? :)

JHC

10-09-2013, 03:20 PM

Mods, how do I put "myself" on the ignore list, so I don't have to read what I said in years past? :)

ROFLMAO! Nice.

ToddG

10-09-2013, 03:25 PM

ROFLMAO! Nice.

It's a good thing you quoted him, JHC. I'm pretty sure all the mods have him on ignore already.

(I kid, I kid!)

Kimura

10-09-2013, 05:36 PM

Are the locking blocks coming from s&w or aftermsrket?

Just realized I bumped a ridiculously old thread. Sorry guys.

Can an old m&p be made to shoot well now? Did a new locking block ever come out? I may have a few year old used m&p and want to make sire I can improve the accuracy. My gen 4 19 could keep them all in a 3x5 with me shooting off hand, and I'm not real good.

First, read this. http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=139767 It lists the changes that S&W has recently made to the M&P 9FS which is the only gun that seems to be affected in large numbers by the accuracy problem. I've read the the 40s have had issues on a much smaller scale and of course the .45 was meant for the never happened military trials and had to meet certain accuracy standards, so they were never affected, at least not to my knowledge. Have the changes helped? Too soon and I don't think anyone knows yet. As they say, time will tell.

Regarding your gun, the Bar-sto/Apex barrel is as of this writing not yet available. Whether it ever will be or not is something you have to ask Apex. The last I heard, Randy wasn't satisfied with the accuracy of the barrel indicating there were other issues that a fitted barrel doesn't solve. Not sure if that's right or not because people getting Storm Lake fitted barrels from G&R are raving about them. That's pretty much both sides of it, so you can make your own determination. Personally I'm not sure how the SL barrels work, yet Bar-sto can't make a barrel that meets Randy Lee's standards. Those two statements together in one sentence doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, at least not to me. Hope that's helpful.

Rich

10-13-2013, 11:38 AM

anyone know why Smith hasnt made a G19 clone yet? I

They did!

its called a SD I think?

came after the sigma

Id rather have one of those than a 6moa M&P 9mm

BigT

10-13-2013, 01:57 PM

They did!

its called a SD I think?

came after the sigma

Id rather have one of those than a 6moa M&P 9mm

6MOA is 1.5 inches at 25 yards isn't it?

Id be all over a couple of those :)

Skaaphaas

10-13-2013, 03:08 PM

6MOA is 1.5 inches at 25 yards isn't it?

Id be all over a couple of those :)
You can shoot mine. Fair warning, it's more like 60 MOA!

The SD is actually slightly bigger than the G19.

Casual Friday

10-14-2013, 08:19 PM

They did!

its called a SD I think?

came after the sigma

Id rather have one of those than a 6moa M&P 9mm

Correct, the SD series is Glock 19/23/32 size.

You can shoot mine. Fair warning, it's more like 60 MOA!

The SD is actually slightly bigger than the G19.

The SD9 I have carries exactly like a Glock 19 despite the slight size difference. Then again you gain an extra round of capacity so it isn't for naught.

awmp

10-14-2013, 09:14 PM

Three of my FS M&P 9mm just got picked up today to go back to one of S&W Warranty Centers (TX) will be interesting to see what happens.

JBP55

10-14-2013, 09:43 PM

Three of my FS M&P 9mm just got picked up today to go back to one of S&W Warranty Centers (TX) will be interesting to see what happens.

I heard the Texas Warranty center only has a 10 day backlog and is very good at resolving the M&P issues.

awmp

11-03-2013, 02:09 PM

Very disappointed with the Texas warranty center. I have used them once before with great results but this is what I just go in an email,
"We sent all three of your pistols to S&W since you had some pinpoint issues to resolve"

I discussed all the issues with them before I sent them the pistols and they just forwarded them to S&W?

I heard the Texas Warranty center only has a 10 day backlog and is very good at resolving the M&P issues.