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Dropkick
11-10-2011, 08:50 AM
The Magpul BAD - Is it just that, bad?

http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG980/100

While the title sounds bias, but I'm hoping to create a open discussion. Personally I'm not vested in this either way.

Recently we've all seen and heard about the dangers of the SERPA holster and some pistol mounted lights that are attributed to the cause of an AD / ND / UD / Sudden Bang. Which brings me to my point, wouldn't a device that is -inside- the trigger guard be even that more likely to result in the finger pulling the trigger? Has anyone ever heard of that happening?

JConn
11-10-2011, 09:01 AM
Interesting you bring this up. I was about to remove mine for that very reason, but I can't find that Damn wrench.

YVK
11-10-2011, 09:26 AM
The Magpul BAD - Is it just that, bad?

http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG980/100

While the title sounds bias, but I'm hoping to create a open discussion. Personally I'm not vested in this either way.

Recently we've all seen and heard about the dangers of the SERPA holster and some pistol mounted lights that are attributed to the cause of an AD / ND / UD / Sudden Bang. Which brings me to my point, wouldn't a device that is -inside- the trigger guard be even that more likely to result in the finger pulling the trigger? Has anyone ever heard of that happening?

I've not heard of it, but it was concerning for me enough not to get one after I had played with one. That, and some reliability issues were reported.

Playing a devil's advocate, the part that you touch is not truly inside a trigger guard. The proximity of the BAD's tip to a trigger is not much different distance-wise than proximity of trigger and magazine pad release on HK pistols, for example...

Zhurdan
11-10-2011, 09:29 AM
I've had one on my AR's for over 2 years and 10k rounds. No issues whatsoever. No ND's, no snagging on other equipment, nada.

It's like anything else, I guess. If you train with it, and understand it's strengths and weaknesses, and are mindful of them all the time... I don't see how there's an issue. Kinda like muzzle discipline. You just have to get it because if you don't, someones going to smack you up side the head.

The spot where it's located in the trigger guard requires everyone except Edward Scissorhands to have their index finger extended fully to interact with it. If you can't do that, don't use it. It's good gear... for me. If you use it and don't feel safe, by all means, take it off.

TCinVA
11-10-2011, 09:46 AM
Keep in mind that carbines are not my specialty, nor is running one the main focus of my practice...but my 2 cents:

- Extra bits of stuff inside the trigger guard is, ceteris paribus, not generally a good thing. That being said, I'm personally unaware of any safety issues that have resulted from use of the BAD. The units I've tried have stuck through the trigger guard fully...leaving a little tab that protrudes so your finger isn't technically inside the trigger guard when you use it...assuming that all of them are set up the way the ones I've tried are. I'd be more worried about it snagging on something in the real world.

- The BAD lever is really only something you go near when the weapon is in a non-functioning state, meaning a reload or clearing a malfunction. In the situations where it is supposed to be used, the weapon theoretically has a dead trigger.

- Initially upon seeing the BAD lever I had similar safety concerns...but after using it I didn't see where it would add in any significant way to the chances of an unintentional discharge of the weapon with your finger. (Again, just my experience. Others may have different conclusions.) Whether or not it might snag on stuff and direct more foreign (non-finger) items into the trigger guard, I cannot say.

- All of that being said, I don't use the BAD lever because while it made locking the bolt back during a malfunction much quicker, it didn't add any other tangible practical value to my ability to get results out of the carbine. It also had the unpleasant side effect of neutering the bolt lock on my rifles so they would no longer lock to the rear on empty. That meant I would often pull the trigger, get a click, and then go into a remedial action drill...which usually resulted in the bolt locking to the rear as I tried to cycle the charging handle. That prompted the reload. After a few times of going through this I figured that a piece of gear which essentially forced me into using the reload procedure for an MP5 wasn't worth having on my rifle. I took it off and it's now sitting in a drawer somewhere in the bag collecting dust.

- Given that it's a highly specialized piece of equipment not found on most rifles, that it's had a bad habit of making my reloads more complicated on my rifles, and that generally the old fashioned factory release seems to work pretty good...I just don't see a need for one. I don't know anyone "downrange" with a rifle strapped to their chest who is using one.

VolGrad
11-10-2011, 10:06 AM
I too will admit I am NOT well versed in long guns.

However, I attended a 1911 course last year with Larry Vickers. The host for the class brought his carbine into the classroom to show LAV and it was equipped with a BAD lever. All I can say is LAV ripped into him (in a humorous way, not ill spirited at all) about how BAD = BAD.

joshs
11-10-2011, 10:35 AM
I like mine. My gun (BCM Middy) has no mechanical issues, it will still lock the bolt back while shooting wolf, so I'm not worried about the BAD affecting the operation of the gun. As others have said, when used properly the finger shouldn't enter the trigger guard. However, I have seen one ND due to a shooter pressing inward on the BAD after a reload. This is obviously incorrectly using the device, it is designed to be pressed in a downward direction in order to send the bolt home, but the danger of an ND from someone who hasn't been properly instructed in its use is definitely there.

I started using one when I still had a redimag on my gun. The BAD made operating the bolt catch about a millon times easier when the redimag was in place. I've since ditched the redimag, but I kept the BAD, mostly because of how easy it makes "Unload and Show Clear" at multigun matches.

Tamara
11-10-2011, 11:39 AM
- All of that being said, I don't use the BAD lever because while it made locking the bolt back during a malfunction much quicker, it didn't add any other tangible practical value to my ability to get results out of the carbine.

This.

It violates my First General Law of Conservation of Stuff, which goes "It is almost always better to remove parts than to add them."

The slight ergonomic benefit seems offset by adding another thing that could break. Playing with one did not give me that whole "OMG! How did I ever run this gun without one?" feeling, the way, say, my first RDS did. Others have obviously come to a different conclusion.

jar
11-10-2011, 11:51 AM
I like mine, but rifles are more of a piece of sporting equipment to me than a defensive tool. The main benefit to me is the ability to lock the bolt back without switching my grip around.

orionz06
11-10-2011, 12:10 PM
I know of very few people who can use them without issues. You also need to consider why you would add it to a gun. Do we really need to increase our speed to clear a really bad malfunction or do we need to spend a little more time/money/effort into preventing that type of malfunction? Also consider the risks if you are for some reason shooting the gun leaning against cover. The lever can very easily be pushed in from the left side, not a risk I would want to take.

Zhurdan
11-10-2011, 12:29 PM
I know of very few people who can use them without issues. You also need to consider why you would add it to a gun. Do we really need to increase our speed to clear a really bad malfunction or do we need to spend a little more time/money/effort into preventing that type of malfunction? Also consider the risks if you are for some reason shooting the gun leaning against cover. The lever can very easily be pushed in from the left side, not a risk I would want to take.

Sample of one, of course, but mine runs like a top. I've never had it not lock back on empty, which seems to be the overwhelming gripe about the BAD from other people.

Training to clear malfunctions isn't just because you have shoddy equipment, it's because if bad shit's gonna happen, it's gonna happen at the worst possible time. The BAD I have rides on a Noveske, but simply because I have a great piece of equipment doesn't mean I shouldn't prepare for the excrement to hit the oscillator. I realize that's not what you meant, but it's kinda how it sounded. ;)

I can't envision a shooting position that would bring the lever into contact with a hard surface. Prone right, nothing there but sky. Prone left, can't see how you can get the gun that low to the ground as you'd most likely be shooting at a slightly upward angle anyways. Barricade right, don't get that close to the barricade (sticking muzzle out is bayud, mmmkay). Barricade left, same as right. Please elaborate.


*ETA* For the record, I like the BAD. It's not the end all, be all of gun parts, but I find it functional. The day it ceases to become functional or becomes a hindrance, it'll come off the gun.

orionz06
11-10-2011, 12:50 PM
Training to clear malfunctions isn't just because you have shoddy equipment, it's because if bad shit's gonna happen, it's gonna happen at the worst possible time. The BAD I have rides on a Noveske, but simply because I have a great piece of equipment doesn't mean I shouldn't prepare for the excrement to hit the oscillator. I realize that's not what you meant, but it's kinda how it sounded. ;)

That wasn't exactly what I was saying. I have heard many people talk like shooting was not fun for them because they had issue locking the bolt back when needed (their gun sucks) and the BAD was a significant improvement. Likely not the case here. As for malfunction clearances and the frequency in which they are trained, I am not saying not to, I was implying that efforts could be placed elsewhere. And again, most often the folks using the BAD (the ones I am familiar with) are using it to make shooting shoddy equipment easier.

I think the technique you use, BAD Lever or not, is more important. This was shown in a carbine class over the summer where someone was clocked with and without it. They were proficient enough for me to consider the results valid and there was only a marginal difference.



I can't envision a shooting position that would bring the lever into contact with a hard surface. Prone right, nothing there but sky. Prone left, can't see how you can get the gun that low to the ground as you'd most likely be shooting at a slightly upward angle anyways. Barricade right, don't get that close to the barricade (sticking muzzle out is bayud, mmmkay). Barricade left, same as right. Please elaborate.

It was mentioned by an OIF/OEF vet that strange situations have occurred where they envisioned the BAD Lever to be an issue. Not sure of all the details so I will leave it at that. We were shooting around vehicles that day, so I think we both have an idea what situation he was envisioning.

Odin Bravo One
11-10-2011, 04:48 PM
I tried one for a few months, but never really figured out what it did for me. Since it didn't really do anything to improve performance, I took it off.

Dropkick
11-10-2011, 06:04 PM
I too will admit I am NOT well versed in long guns.

However, I attended a 1911 course last year with Larry Vickers. The host for the class brought his carbine into the classroom to show LAV and it was equipped with a BAD lever. All I can say is LAV ripped into him (in a humorous way, not ill spirited at all) about how BAD = BAD.

Never thought I'd share mind-space with "The LAV"
I think I feel dirty.

HK_Feeder
11-10-2011, 06:57 PM
Hey guys, new member here. Figured I'd break the ice on this topic since I have experience with the Magpul B.A.D. lever on my rifle. I loved it to death, and never had a problem with it. That little lever made a world of difference (IMO, anyway) on the expedient operation of the rifle and also made one-handed malfunction drills almost enjoyable. At the time I was running a mid-length gas system with the Enidine recoil-reducing buffer, and after sending thousands of rounds (including some pretty dirty stuff) downrange, never had the issue of the bolt failing to lock back, as others have mentioned. I believe what this means is that the lever's effectiveness varies from setup to setup. IMO, if you're on the fence, I believe it's worth the try and highly recommend it. If it doesn't work, ditch it. If it feels unsafe to you, ditch it. If you don't like the way it looks, remove it for your internet forum photo-ops. The one and only gripe I had with the lever was that it came loose after a couple months. Definitely lock-tite that f*cker.

theblacknight
11-10-2011, 08:01 PM
I too will admit I am NOT well versed in long guns.

However, I attended a 1911 course last year with Larry Vickers. The host for the class brought his carbine into the classroom to show LAV and it was equipped with a BAD lever. All I can say is LAV ripped into him (in a humorous way, not ill spirited at all) about how BAD = BAD.


Can you revisit this verbal ripping? I started a similier thread at m4 http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=87347&highlight=BAD+lever and when Grant said If I ever showed up to a Vickers course with a BAD lever, to stand the fuck by, BUT WOULD NOT say exactly why in a round about way,which to me means "Well Larry said not to use it BC Larry says not to HERP DERP".

I've never had a problems with to one on my personal OPPS rifle and on my issued ride. My opps rifle has seen 4000r of privi and about 1500 of silver bear and wolf.


Quote:
Originally Posted by C4IGrant
Don't do that. Use it and attend their classes. This is much more enjoyable. "



Please ,tell what would happen.
__________________



Originally Posted by C4IGrant
Good things (especially if they told the instructor that it was "flawless" and then had an issue). ""


No, I'm serious, what would happen. I wouldnt tell anyone it's flawless, I would just say I havent had a reason to take it off.

I don't want to put words in your mouth but since your soo brief, it sounds like they would do whatever just to make sure there is some kind of problem with it because they dont personally like it. Is that accurate? I hope not.

TCinVA
11-10-2011, 10:12 PM
I don't want to put words in your mouth but since your soo brief, it sounds like they would do whatever just to make sure there is some kind of problem with it because they dont personally like it. Is that accurate? I hope not.

Based on my experiences on the range with LAV, it would go like this:

1. LAV will warn you about a particular event occurring due to that piece of equipment. This will be done kindly and with considerable humor...not in an R. Lee Ermey drill sergeant manner.

2. You will probably note that you've never had a problem with it before. LAV will look at you for a moment and then go on with the class.

3. Within 60 minutes of his warning, the exact phenomenon he predicted will occur and then your gear selection will become a teaching point...and LAV will close the session with something along the lines of perhaps having learned something during all those years in an elite SOF unit.

4. At some point during all of this, you may be in the danger zone for incontinence due to laughter.

You see, LAV has special powers. At some point he gained mastery of the gremlins that cause malfunctions and gear problems and now seemingly has the ability to summon them at will. Do you know how many reloads I've done from a pocket in a Vickers class? Exactly one. Out of all the time I've spent on the range with LAV, I've done precisely one pistol reload from a pocket. This was done less than 60 minutes after he warned that carrying a spare mag in a pocket would cause problems. Some people remarked that they've never had a problem. (Not me, because outside of a class environment I don't carry mags in pockets.) Nevertheless, LAV looked at me for a second and moved on. Sure enough, I perform a reload with that mag in the pocket and the gun goes bang once...then locks up.

I clear the malfunction and find a bit of breath-mint wrapper had wrapped around the nose of a round in the mag and had wedged in the chamber, stopping the gun. Pocket debris had caused a malfunction, just like he said. Now if I had only seen something like that happen once, I could chalk it up to coincidence. But after a few dozen times you start to wonder if he's a wizard.

He doesn't have to touch your gun or make you perform any bizarre actions that will cause a problem. He doesn't distract you while the AI tinkers with your gun to make the bad thing happen. All I've ever seen him do is say "Dude, that's going to do X." and then X happens. I'm reasonably certain he only uses his powers for good.

orionz06
11-10-2011, 10:14 PM
Based on my experiences on the range with LAV, it would go like this:

1. LAV will warn you about a particular event occurring due to that piece of equipment. This will be done kindly and with considerable humor...not in an R. Lee Ermey drill sergeant manner.

2. You will probably note that you've never had a problem with it before. LAV will look at you for a moment and then go on with the class.

3. Within 60 minutes of his warning, the exact phenomenon he predicted will occur and then your gear selection will become a teaching point...and LAV will close the session with something along the lines of perhaps having learned something during all those years in an elite SOF unit.

4. At some point during all of this, you may be in the danger zone for incontinence due to laughter.

You see, LAV has special powers. At some point he gained mastery of the gremlins that cause malfunctions and gear problems and now seemingly has the ability to summon them at will. Do you know how many reloads I've done from a pocket in a Vickers class? Exactly one. Out of all the time I've spent on the range with LAV, I've done precisely one pistol reload from a pocket. This was done less than 60 minutes after he warned that carrying a spare mag in a pocket would cause problems. Some people remarked that they've never had a problem. (Not me, because outside of a class environment I don't carry mags in pockets.) Nevertheless, LAV looked at me for a second and moved on. Sure enough, I perform a reload with that mag in the pocket and the gun goes bang once...then locks up.

I clear the malfunction and find a bit of breath-mint wrapper had wrapped around the nose of a round in the mag and had wedged in the chamber, stopping the gun. Pocket debris had caused a malfunction, just like he said. Now if I had only seen something like that happen once, I could chalk it up to coincidence. But after a few dozen times you start to wonder if he's a wizard.

He doesn't have to touch your gun or make you perform any bizarre actions that will cause a problem. He doesn't distract you while the AI tinkers with your gun to make the bad thing happen. All I've ever seen him do is say "Dude, that's going to do X." and then X happens. I'm reasonably certain he only uses his powers for good.

This man speaks the truth. Not only did a shooter in a recent class have to remove his flawlessly performing BAD Lever he also had to replace his now broken MS2 sling because what the LAV said would happen did.

Jay Cunningham
11-10-2011, 10:38 PM
He doesn't distract you while the AI tinkers with your gun to make the bad thing happen.

Actually his AI went around one time peeling off all the stupid factory stickers that were on my spare Glock 19 magazines when I wasn't looking.

theblacknight
11-11-2011, 12:20 AM
So all I have to to keep my guns running is stay away from Larry? Coo

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

VolGrad
11-11-2011, 07:48 AM
I don't recall exactly what all LAV said. It was over a year ago now but reading TCinVAs post ... that's pretty much how the 3 day course went. LAV really does seem to have some kind of gift for predicting then making something happen.

Speaking of pocket reloads ... I've twice seen someone lock up a gun doing that. One was due to a paster getting suck on magazine and the other was from a chewing gum wrapper. People say, "Well, I never carry anything else in the same pocket as my extra mag." Maybe not ... on purpose.

MechEng
11-11-2011, 10:55 AM
..."Well, I never carry anything else in the same pocket as my extra mag." Maybe not ... on purpose.

It's kind of like your belly button. You don't intentionally put lint there - lint automagically grows there.

Andy T
11-19-2011, 09:53 PM
I have BAD on my rifles for about a year and a half. In this time I used one rifle with BAD in two three day training classes and there were no issues with functioning. I wonder if the issues some people are having with BAD have to do with the lower?
All my lowers are pre-ban Colt and function fine.