New Guy - where to start?

[DWB]

I've been shooting a couple years now I guess. Few months ago started shooting a semiformal local competition. Indoors, automated computer controlled/programmed "scenarios", B-27s. Usually have a handful of guys, couple LEOs and a few regular Joes. I started out shooting pretty good for a noob I thought, but I haven't really gotten better, mostly due to lack of practice I'm sure. I just got a reloading press, so the practicing is going to increase quite a bit. My main shortcoming is gunhandling - reloads, etc. I do OK long as I don't miss a reload or some such.

I need to work on is speed, double taps and gunhanlding really. The way it works is the targets will be set up at various distances, with the targets sideways to the shooter. The targets pivot to facing the shooter one by one or two by two, like BE targets, depending on the program. 2 shots per target. I like the setup, and I think it makes it easier to score - no timing...if you shoot well, and hit all the targets you score well. If you fumble, you score poorly. The scorer doesn't have to calc in time to the scores, it's built in. Downside is, I can't shoot slowly and work my way up to faster. I once shot a timed outdoor course...the LEO who got first place shot a 9mm (minor) quite fast, and I shot my .45 (major) quite slowly, being my first time, not wanting to make mistakes, I shot quite accurately, (I'm an accuracy nut) and I got second IIRC. Thing is, with the indoor, I can't play that game, the speed playing field is leveled, if you will, and no major/minor.

At any rate, I believe in shooting as fast as you can hit, and I do okay accuracy wise, but need to get faster. I can't really work my way up, as the target is only available for however long it's programmed for. I have to get that fast or miss points, and I can't fumble reloads, etc.

Suggestions for double-taps and reloads? Planning on loading up some dummies and painting them for dryfire handling drills, but where to start?

There is a mess of info out there...

Thanks!

[zml342]

As a fellow noob I would suggest starting at the beginning, with the basics. Pistol-training.com (http://pistol-training.com/) has a lot of great drills for helping a new shooter work the basics and then build upon them. I would start with the first Drill of the Week (DotW (http://pistol-training.com/archives/category/dotw/page/5)) and work through those. These drills will help with building accuracy, sight tracking, speed, reloads, multiple strings of fire and progressing from there. These drills should help you get started.

Once you start to become proficient with these techniques, tests like FAST (http://pistol-training.com/drills/fast-fundamentals-accuracy-speed-test), Dot Torture (http://pistol-training.com/drills/dot-torture), 99 Drill (http://pistol-training.com/drills/99-drill)and others will help determine what areas you need more work in. Hope this helps...

[vcdgrips]

You would profit greatly from a 2-3 day class taught by a reputable instructor. If we knew where you generally lived (i.e. Central Missouri), we could reccomend instruction.


When I started shooting in 1991, I profited greatly from shooting with a bunch of guys that had trained with Jeff Cooper and his first generation of students/instuctors to include: Pat Rodgers, Clint Smith, Louis Awerbuck, Ken Hakathorn, Tom Givens, Randy Cain etc . During that timeframe, I also started shooting IPSC and IDPA (in as tactically sound a manner as possible). This "competition" certainly gave me the opportunity to learn to run /manipulate my pistol at speed so I could get to the point where those skill were on "autopilot", freeing my mind to solve the tactical problem.

Having said that, it was not until 2004 that I myself went to a formal multiday class. I would have been a better shooter sooner and a better shooter today if I had gone to a good class earlier in my shooting life.

IMHO, I would also note, like any other art form, martial or otherwise, pistolcraft is a living breathing thing that is constantly evolving. No bodily kinestetic movement, when attempted at its highest level, looks the same in 2011 as it did in 1981. The martial art of pistolcraft is no different.


YMMV greatly,
David

[JeffJ]

This, I learned more in 2 days with Tom Givens doing combative pistol I than I did with many more hours and rounds sent down range. Prior to that I had done some "mini-classes" that an outfit around here does - it makes a huge difference. I've come to believe that until you get some good competent instruction from a good instructor, not just a good shooter, that you're wasting a lot of time and energy. Not to mention money, which certainly plays a factor, but the cost of a good 2 day training class ($400 plus ammo) will pay for itself many times over if you factor the time/cost of wasted practice.

[Andy T]

Another strong recommendation for a 2-3 day class from a quality instructor. I was lucky enough to take Tom Givens' Combative Pistol I as my first course. I think his course has the right balance between teaching how to shoot/manipulate the gun, legal ramifications, and mind set that all play a key when carrying concealed.

[TCinVA]

If you can give us a rough region of the country where you're at/able to get to, we might be able to come up with some intelligent suggestions for training opportunities.

[iakdrago]

If you can give us a rough region of the country where you're at/able to get to, we might be able to come up with some intelligent suggestions for training opportunities.

I'm not the original poster, but am in the same boat. I guess i've had the traditional gun up bringing, and as such it's reflected in my skill set--i shoot well for accuracy on static targets with pistol from 0-25 yards, and do well of the bench with rifles out to 100 yards.

If someone could recommend a class that would increase my dynamic shooting skills, and broaden my horizon's outside of single shot accuracy, it would be appreciated.

I live in the greater philladelphia area. I guess i'll start dropping some change in the piggy bank for the class.

[ToddG]

I live in the greater philladelphia area.

Our own Jay Cunningham (in Pittsburgh) teaches Vickers Shooting Method classes pretty regularly. I can recommend Jay without hesitation and in fact often try to convince DC-area shooters to trek up to Pitt for his classes. Between Jay's skill and the VSM syllabus, you cannot ask for a better start to your formal shooting instruction.

[Jay Cunningham]

I'm blushing... :o

Thanks very much for the endorsement Todd. As to the original question, I do have a pretty good track record to date getting newer shooters up to speed. Please check my schedule (http://www.lowspeed-highdrag.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51&Itemid=61) and feel free to contact me with any questions that you might have.

[iakdrago]

I'm blushing... :o

Thanks very much for the endorsement Todd. As to the original question, I do have a pretty good track record to date getting newer shooters up to speed. Please check my schedule (http://www.lowspeed-highdrag.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51&Itemid=61) and feel free to contact me with any questions that you might have.

Will def have to start to put money away... if only i did not just dump my savings into a house

[DWB]

Hey, guys, thanks for the input. Sorry I haven't been back, I wasn't getting email notifications of replies.

I am in SoCal, on the Mexican and AZ borders....middle of nowhere!

[Badfish25]

While I total agree that a basic class will help you the most there are some things you can do to improve by yourself.

First you want to make sure the things you are practicing are right, so you don't develop bad habits that you latter have to break. I would recommend this book http://www.vikingtactics.com/books_stayinfight.html The price seems steep, but you will get a lot more out of this book than two boxes of ammo. There are also a lot of good DVD's out there.

Once I learned basic gun handling skills I would start a "dry fire" program of draws, reloads, and trigger presses. Do this a couple times a week and you will see lots of gains.

[DWB]

I discovered something last night. My shots had been tending left. I realized that when reloading, I'm twisting the gun left in my strong hand to get to the mag release, and not getting it tweaked all the way back around to the right, ending up with my thumb to far forward on the safety and trigger finger a bit short on the trigger. Think I should see about a slightly extended mag release.

I'd also been trying to get my 25yd shots to stay in the B-27 10 ring, and realized from some reading that's a pretty high goal, like borderline BE high.

Any tips for aiming at the center of a target that is too far to see a specific aiming point?

I'm going to start practicing shooting blank 8 x 11s or so on my target stands I think.

Thanks

[David S.]

DWB

Watch your sights longer. No matter what jacked up grip you may have after a reload, that's where your shots will end up. You are missing left because you sights were pointed left when the gun went off. A messed up grip may account for that, but, ultimately, the reason your shot went left is because your gun was pointed left.

WRT 25yd. I'd start accuracy work from a bench if possible. Start close and work your way out. Start at 7 yards (or 3, or whatever). Get hits within the acceptable target area (10 ring). Move the target back 1 yard at a time. Baby steps. Slowly working your way out will allow you to learn what YOU need to see. Create confidence. After you become comfortable with accuracy from the bench, start over again freestyle. Then strong hand only. Then weak hand only.


Personally, I use the super cheap, generic paper plates or some sort of card stock (3x5 card).

ETA: I'll pass this along too. ToddG-for-Beginners. (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?3592-ToddG-for-Beginners) The 25yd comment was basically the "Walkback Drill."

[DWB]

Excellent stuff, thanks.

I was going through my targets and found some playing cards from an online shooting competition at one of the Ruger forums from a year or two ago. I kept 4 out of 5 shots on a couple out of a few cards at 25 yards, I think one was even 5 for 5....with my 6" Single Six...now if I could just do it with my .45 :D I shoot either my Six or Blackhawk considerably better than my .45 1911, although since I've started reloading and can do lighter and more accurate loads, it has improved.

Re: the bench...I have shot from the bench a couple different ways considerably, also Elmer Keith position, doesn't do much for my groups, at least not at 25.

I have done similar to the walkback, I've played with close yardages, need to do it more. I wanted to see how much of the lack of accuracy was me, and how much was the gun/ammo, so I started shooting Dots in Circles aka 1" bulls http://www.mytargets.com/ at 5 or 7 yards...I can occasionally get a one hole group, average is maybe 1.5". I'm sure that isn't good enough for consistently tight goups at 25, so I should probably stick close until I can one-hole consistently and then move back.

[Ian]

I have to agree with the suggestion to get some good training - I've been shooting since I was a child, and recently took a VSM course. I learned more and did more in that course than I had in the previous 5 years, on top of that I now have a good direction in which to steer my solo training. Well worth every penny spent, in fact I probably saved money in the long run since I won't be wasting ammo in training myself to do things that are inefficient, or cause more problems than they solve. The only thing that could be a problem is that taking shooting courses from good instructors, with a bunch of good guys, can be quite habit forming, I'm already looking for more!

[DWB]

I printed out all the drills to take to the range. One I came up with is to load all mags with 2 rounds each, practice acquiring sight picture, sight tracking double taps, reloading. Made a big difference.

Re: my current ability, I'll have vids for you guys to laugh at in a week or two, :D I usually get third a few points behind 2 guys who are a few years older than I, have been shooting competition for years, and are LE...shooting 9mm, so I feel I do pretty good, I'd just like to beat 'em more often. Right now, I do only if I have a good day and they a bad one.

One thing I got to thinking about is I need to decide how good I really want or need to be, how much time and money do I want to invest in ammo, training, and equipment. Right now, out to 25 yards, the Bad Guy is toast...I'm just looking to pick up more 10 rings. I want to train myself for awhile and see where I get and then consider the pro training. I probably oughta quit this thread and go start a journal.