View Full Version : RMR in the rain
It has been raining almost non-stop the last few weeks, here in Alaska. This afternoon, it let up briefly, and we hit the range to zero an AR, and shoot pistols and long guns. Minutes after getting there, it started raining hard. My wife got the T1 and iron sight zero confirmed, despite some water on the Aimpoint lens.
Next, I pulled out my Glock 17 RMR, that was protected in a Rogers holster with the hood.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsmbnjbvc7.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsmbnjbvc7.jpeg.html)
Initially, all was well, and we were hitting an 8 inch steel at 50 yards, at will. Then my wife said "hey, the dot is split up, appearing as multiple dots in different parts of the display, with starbursting. I confirmed that, and blew on the emitter trying to clear it, and the whole lens fogged. The BUIS were not usable through the window of the RMR -- either through the fog, or when the lens was just wet and starbursting.
Recently we have had various threads discussing the RMR (on a shotgun, on the Roland, and in some officer's holster down south). Until we have a pistol sized RDS with a sealed emitter, I just don't see how a careful person would rely on a RMR equipped pistol for duty, if rain, snow or moisture is even a remote possibility. Even with CCW, while that pistol may generally be protected, it took surprisingly little time to become unusable today in heavy rain.
Cheap Shot
08-06-2016, 08:00 PM
"Initially, all was well, and we were hitting an 8 inch steel at 50 yards,"
How long were you shooting in the rain before the RMR fogged? Any feedback from Mfg'er about why it fogged up? Was the fog internal or moisture outside on the lens?
CCW has an RMR so appreciate the info
Thanks
okie john
08-06-2016, 08:18 PM
I've had the same issue with an RMR 02. The starburst effect came as soon as rain hit the sight. The fog came when I tried to clear the rain drops with my breath. How long it takes to reduce the sight's effectiveness depends on how hard it's raining. If it's a downpour, you may only have a few seconds. If it's a mist, longer.
Okie John
psalms144.1
08-06-2016, 08:37 PM
IIRC, others have had similar results with RMRs in the rain. I'm a dinosaur and needed a lot of time with a RDS on my carbine to be comfortable with one as my primary sighting system, so I guess I'll wait and see a while longer on the RMR on a pistol.
Thanks for posting your experience, George!
98z28
08-06-2016, 08:39 PM
Yep. That's a big part of why my RMR experiment didn't last long. The rain and fog issue popped up pretty quickly in the south Mississippi summer. Seems like I remember you posting a similar issue with snow a while back GJM, i.e. the lens getting blocked with snow making the dot and irons unusable.
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"Initially, all was well, and we were hitting an 8 inch steel at 50 yards,"
How long were you shooting in the rain before the RMR fogged? Any feedback from Mfg'er about why it fogged up? Was the fog internal or moisture outside on the lens?
CCW has an RMR so appreciate the info
Thanks
Cheap Shot, see Okie John's post below as he explained it.
Less than five minutes of shooting in heavy rain, put moisture on the display and emitter, causing the starbursting. To try to get the moisture off the emitter, I blew on the back of the optic, causing the display to fog.
Previously I had taken comfort that carrying a pistol with a RMR concealed would protect it. It surprised me how quickly the RMR became unusable. BUIS functioned today as "backup iron sights" in name only. Lesson learned.
I've had the same issue with an RMR 02. The starburst effect came as soon as rain hit the sight. The fog came when I tried to clear the rain drops with my breath. How long it takes to reduce the sight's effectiveness depends on how hard it's raining. If it's a downpour, you may only have a few seconds. If it's a mist, longer.
Okie John
StraitR
08-06-2016, 08:46 PM
To me, the RMR is nothing more than a placeholder until something else comes out and proves itself reliable. The MOS system, or something like the Unity Tactical ATOM slide, seems to be the logical way to leave your options open (hopefully) for whatever's coming down the pipe as far as new mrds options. None of the current mrds offerings, not including the AP micro series, seem to check all the boxes enough for me to warrant milling a slide.
Worst case MOS scenarios, see if it can be milled/fitted for next gen whizbang optic when one comes along, or put the top plate back on and I have an extra 19 I paid a $40 premium for. In the meantime, I can play with the MOS + RMR.
That said, I did carry it to a neighborhood B-day party today. Could have got killed in the streets if it would have rained I guess. :p
Seems like I remember you posting a similar issue with snow a while back GJM, i.e. the lens getting blocked with snow making the dot and irons unusable.
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Many moons ago, I fell into a snow bank carrying a M&P 45 with an RMR in an unconcealed OWB holster. I assumed concealed, or a Rogers holster with a hood would prevent that.
98z28
08-06-2016, 08:57 PM
Ah. That makes sense.
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You learned about the jelly cover in the last rain/red dot thread, when you gonna try it.
You learned about the jelly cover in the last rain/red dot thread, when you gonna try it.
Reading the reviews on Amazon, it seems more like a protective cover for use in a range bag, as opposed to something you shooting through in the rain.
https://www.amazon.com/Strike-Industries-JellyFish-Transparent-shipping/dp/B00DG9NFVI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1470539469&sr=8-1&keywords=RMR+cover#customerReviews
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Reading the reviews on Amazon, it seems more like a protective cover for use in a range bag, as opposed to something you shooting through in the rain.
https://www.amazon.com/Strike-Industries-JellyFish-Transparent-shipping/dp/B00DG9NFVI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1470539469&sr=8-1&keywords=RMR+cover#customerReviews
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I use one of these for a protective cover (in a range bad). As for shooting with it on... It would be the optical equivalent of taking a pair of cheap gas station bought sun glasses, throwing them in the dirt and raking them across some gravel, then putting them on and trying to see a crisp dot - not going to happen. The cover distorts the dot considerably. Would it be better than rain? Maybe, but still not usable IMHO. YMMV.
rob_s
08-07-2016, 06:10 AM
I asked about rain on the lens way way back in the rmr-pistol circle-jerk thread and nobody wanted to address it.
43Under
08-07-2016, 06:32 AM
I saw this issue come up for two RMR users in a class down at CSAT. Both times I've been to Nacogdoches, random rain storms have popped up. In the summer class I attended, the guys with RMRs had issues as soon as rain hit the emitters, even though the pistols were worn concealed.
Clobbersaurus
08-07-2016, 08:37 AM
Hmmmm.....seems like there may be a use for Homboy sights after all.:cool:
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/08/22/sideways_gun_sight.jpg
spinmove_
08-07-2016, 10:56 AM
Hmmmm.....seems like there may be a use for Homboy sights after all.:cool:
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/08/22/sideways_gun_sight.jpg
Re-brand them for the tactical people and you'd have "Offset pistol BUIS"...
Chance
08-07-2016, 11:13 AM
Modern Service Weapons had an excellent article, and photos, of this phenomenon in action. I can't find them now, but maybe someone can dig them up.
DocGKR
08-07-2016, 01:45 PM
Problem solved...
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/UnityG17H1_zps186ba61b.jpg
Default.mp3
08-07-2016, 01:59 PM
Problem solved...
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/UnityG17H1_zps186ba61b.jpgOnly if you have Glocks.
I'm curious as to how well my laser would work during the rain as a back-up sighting system.
orionz06
08-07-2016, 02:02 PM
At some point those with normal vision will go back to "slick" Glocks and that will be a thing.
Doesn't seem like the juice is worth the squeeze for all things until the optic is sealed and frame mounted. Trijicon has a small form optic that could be close, I'd imagine something could be done with it.
El Cid
08-07-2016, 02:30 PM
Modern Service Weapons had an excellent article, and photos, of this phenomenon in action. I can't find them now, but maybe someone can dig them up.
Found the photo.
http://s287.photobucket.com/user/ranjaz/media/rmrinrain_zpsf8880ae4.jpg.html
Found the photo.
http://s287.photobucket.com/user/ranjaz/media/rmrinrain_zpsf8880ae4.jpg.html
That looks familiar!
Chance
08-07-2016, 03:18 PM
Found the photo.
http://s287.photobucket.com/user/ranjaz/media/rmrinrain_zpsf8880ae4.jpg.html
Cool.
9724
What about adding a hood to the RMR like the one on the Burris Fast Fire ?
It started raining hard again here, mid morning. We were out clearing willows and alders in front of the cabin, getting thoroughly drenched.
In the interest of science, I grabbed a MOS 19 with the Delta Point Pro, and went out in the rain. Got it good and wet, and no starbursting effect. Even though the window was covered in drops, the dot was clearly usable through the larger, clear window. I then went and stood under where the water was coming off the roof, getting it really wet. Still no issue. I blew on the display, completely fogging it, and the dot was still usable, if not ideal.
Here is a picture, once I got back in the house.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zps0hjl7pew.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zps0hjl7pew.jpeg.html)
ldunnmobile
08-07-2016, 05:03 PM
Y'all are fixing to cost me money. Shut up please.
I have 2 RMRs and this has been my major concerned thought I've not soaked mine before.
ldunnmobile
08-07-2016, 10:41 PM
Ok. Been thinking about this. Humor me this question.... Are the BUIS usable after the starburst but before you blew on the lens and it fogged up?
Ok. Been thinking about this. Humor me this question.... Are the BUIS usable after the starburst but before you blew on the lens and it fogged up?
No.
What I didn't test was turning off the dot (with the 06) and trying the BUIS.
DocGKR
08-08-2016, 09:48 AM
Hmmm....this can certainly be an issue for an exposed duty pistol, but less of a problem for CCW with the pistol under a garment. Threat presents, pistol comes out, threat ceases, pistol goes back under cover. So far, in multiple wet training evolutions, as well as several classes in the rain with RMR equipped pistols, including a PMac class and one from another well known trainer--there were no significant issues with the lens getting obscured by rain.
Hmmm....this can certainly be an issue for an exposed duty pistol, but less of a problem for CCW with the pistol under a garment. Threat presents, pistol comes out, threat ceases, pistol goes back under cover. So far, in multiple wet training evolutions, as well as several classes in the rain with RMR equipped pistols, including a PMac class and one from another well known trainer--there were no significant issues with the lens getting obscured by rain.
I think Trijicon should place a legend on the side of the RMR:
Caution, only approved for use in very light rain. Use in moderate or greater rain not recommended without optional rain shield.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpshulye2wy.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpshulye2wy.jpeg.html)
Maple Syrup Actual
08-08-2016, 11:32 AM
This is why I keep using offset irons in rifles.
I've been told a hundred times that the optics will survive more damage than I will and that no realistic scenario will result in them becoming too obscured to use.
I have seen every quality optic I can think of get completely fogged out in heavy wet.
I have no trouble believing that the RMR would get obscured in those conditions.
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Hmmmm.....seems like there may be a use for Homboy sights after all.:cool:
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/08/22/sideways_gun_sight.jpg
Salient arms version
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160808/98b0f31aa7f3263b271d1e5be6c3e6ff.jpg
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In fairness, these have been tough conditions. However, I carry a pistol for a low probability, high consequence issue, and in some parts of the world, rain and humidity are not uncommon.
I was out shooting this morning in high 40's, moderate rain, because the alternative is to stay inside and look at the rain through the window. Full Grunden's rain gear and rubber boots. The iron sights didn't complain at all, and the steel may have been pleased, as they weren't hit as much as usual at 50 yards and beyond.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsfe6pcusw.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsfe6pcusw.jpeg.html)
Which Glock be that? What loads for carry lately?
taadski
08-08-2016, 07:18 PM
In fairness, these have been tough conditions. However, I carry a pistol for a low probability, high consequence issue, and in some parts of the world, rain and humidity are not uncommon.
I was out shooting this morning in high 40's, moderate rain, because the alternative is to stay inside and look at the rain through the window. Full Grunden's rain gear and rubber boots. The iron sights didn't complain at all, and the steel may have been pleased, as they weren't hit as much as usual at 50 yards and beyond.
Did your wife hold the umbrella for you again today? :cool:
El Cid
08-08-2016, 08:58 PM
Forget the umbrella - it will prevent press checks... Lol!
You need to keep one of these on your belt at all times. Best to paint the can tactical black or wrap it in Multicam tape. Then see if you can get a Kydex pouch for it.
http://www.computerhope.com/jargon/c/compair.jpg
*image courtesy of computerhope.com
Forget the umbrella - it will prevent press checks... Lol!
You need to keep one of these on your belt at all times. Best to paint the can tactical black or wrap it in Multicam tape. Then see if you can get a Kydex pouch for it.
http://www.computerhope.com/jargon/c/compair.jpg
*image courtesy of computerhope.com
There's a taco for that...
I can't but help think if we were talking about another (EOTech) brand there would have been a collective wailing and gnashing of teeth and everyone would screaming hysterically "burn the witch".
I was looking at an RMR to put on my rifle thinking that in the future I would buy an MOS 19 and mount one there too and be familiar with the sight picture but if it can't stand up to getting wet in the rain it's selection should be treated with caution.
This is a small sample which is perhaps why there isn't much negative reaction and yes, its appropriate to keep it in context. All the same, I am surprised.
Which Glock be that? What loads for carry lately?
just a beater G4 19 that I didn't mind soaking in the rain, shooting steel. Why so much steel lately, because it works in the rain!
Summer carry is the USP 40 with Lehigh Xtreme Penetrators or the USP 45 with the Buffalo Bore Super.
I have been thinking about why the Delta Point Pro did better in the rain than the RMR, and wonder if it is in the design/location of the emitter. Here are two pictures of the RMR emitter area, followed by the DP Pro.
RMR straight on:
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsvgnlkfvb.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsvgnlkfvb.jpeg.html)
RMR tipped towards emitter:
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsp8hw7sdu.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsp8hw7sdu.jpeg.html)
DP Pro straight on:
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpseelusbao.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpseelusbao.jpeg.html)
DP Pro tipped towards emitter:
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsfcgoczy3.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsfcgoczy3.jpeg.html)
OnionsAndDragons
08-12-2016, 11:58 AM
Is the DP emitter just bigger? Could this have an impact on how much water is needed to hinder the projection?
Beyond that I'm thinking that the recessed build point might be the edge. A water droplet should be drawn to the corners either side of the emitter, possibly increasing the chance that any single droplet is shed off as opposed to sticking to the emitter.
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DocGKR
10-18-2016, 03:05 AM
We had significant rain (for California) this past Fri-Sun courtesy of Typhoon Songda. In my quest to settle on a new CCW handgun, I made a point of going to the range and shooting several hundred rounds each day with an RMR equipped pistol--Fri M&P9, Sat G19, Sun M&P45. In no cases were the dots obscured by rain. As I noted earlier in this thread, rain can certainly be an issue for an exposed duty pistol, but less of a problem for CCW with the pistol under a garment. Threat presents, pistol comes out, threat ceases, pistol goes back under cover. This was the technique I used to shoot a number of multiple shot drills each day, including the Defoor tests, LAPD qual, El Prez, etc... There were NO instances were the RDS failed to function. On the other hand, my shot timer had some issues in the rain...
OnionsAndDragons
10-26-2016, 08:31 AM
I still want a damned Aimpoint MRDS.
Docs testing is still encouraging.
I still want a damned Aimpoint MRDS.
DocGKR
11-26-2016, 11:53 PM
My last six range days have been in the rain shooting RMR equipped pistols from AIWB; still no problems seeing the dot or shooting as demonstrated by this 94-4x 10 round slow-fire off hand group fired in the wind and rain at 50 yards using Fed 147 gr AE9FP FMJ from an RMR06 equipped G19:
http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u398/gkrdds/G19%20RMR06%20Fed%20147%20gr%20FMJ%2050%20yds%20SF .jpg
Man. Saw group, saw poster, thought "man good group, 1 flyer, not very doc like, but it was in the rain.." then saw the 50! Duuuuuude. That is insane!!!!!!
psalms144.1
11-27-2016, 02:56 PM
My last six range days have been in the rain shooting RMR equipped pistols from AIWB; still no problems seeing the dot or shooting as demonstrated by this 94-4x 10 round slow-fire off hand group fired in the wind and rain at 50 yards using Fed 147 gr AE9FP FMJ from an RMR06 equipped G19:Great shooting, Doc, absolutely amazing 50 yard group. That's like my 5 yard group, on a good, dry, sunny day...
DocGKR
11-27-2016, 03:23 PM
Honestly it is cheating with an RDS equipped pistol in slow fire--no time pressures, easy to line-up dot on black and press the trigger back...
Chuck Haggard
11-27-2016, 04:21 PM
Honestly it is cheating with an RDS equipped pistol in slow fire--no time pressures, easy to line-up dot on black and press the trigger back...
Doc, was that with the stock barrel?
DocGKR
11-27-2016, 04:45 PM
Not the OEM; it was a KKM drop-in that has about 3000 rds through it so far.
Singlestack Wonder
11-27-2016, 08:28 PM
We had significant rain (for California) this past Fri-Sun courtesy of Typhoon Songda. In my quest to settle on a new CCW handgun, I made a point of going to the range and shooting several hundred rounds each day with an RMR equipped pistol--Fri M&P9, Sat G19, Sun M&P45. In no cases were the dots obscured by rain. As I noted earlier in this thread, rain can certainly be an issue for an exposed duty pistol, but less of a problem for CCW with the pistol under a garment. Threat presents, pistol comes out, threat ceases, pistol goes back under cover. This was the technique I used to shoot a number of multiple shot drills each day, including the Defoor tests, LAPD qual, El Prez, etc... There were NO instances were the RDS failed to function. On the other hand, my shot timer had some issues in the rain...
As you stated with the pistol going back in the concealed holster after each draw, it allowed for the water pooling around the led emitter to drain between draws. For a prolonged shtf situation in the rain, the rmr would effectively be useless.
Hunter Osborne
11-27-2016, 09:35 PM
As you stated with the pistol going back in the concealed holster after each draw, it allowed for the water pooling around the led emitter to drain between draws. For a prolonged shtf situation in the rain, the rmr would effectively be useless.
I purposely tested this out in a storm we had a few weeks ago. I had the range to myself so I kept the gun out (in my hand) while walking the range to check targets/repaint steel as well as kept it out in between drills and obviously for the drills themselves. Gun was exposed in a heavy downpour for about 45 minutes, with a primarily muzzle down (unless on target) orientation, and I did not have any issues using the dot.
Edited to add: FWIW, the gun is a CZ P07 with an RM06 installed by L&M Precision.
BillSWPA
11-27-2016, 11:48 PM
Honestly it is cheating with an RDS equipped pistol in slow fire--no time pressures, easy to line-up dot on black and press the trigger back...
Jeff Cooper once said that perhaps the first requirement in selecting a handgun is that it should be unfair.
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