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spinmove_
08-02-2016, 01:59 PM
Not sure if this is exactly the correct sub-forum for this, but it seemed correct as I made these observations during GSSF.

Up until last week, I've practiced on shooting with both eyes open. This was mostly with one or two targets directly in front of me at indoor ranges (that's all I have access to right now). While shooting a couple of stages at GSSF I tried continuing to shoot this way. Unfortunately I ran into issues with correctly lining the sights up on target as I was seeing double and sometimes triple targets while maintaining a hard focus on the front sight. I eventually had to transition to shooting with 1 eye and seemed to do significantly better after making that switch.

Am I always supposed to be able to shoot with both eyes open for all shots?
If no, when should I be transitioning to using 1 eye?
Are there times when I actually shouldn't have a hard focus on the front sight?
If yes, what should I be focusing on instead and when should I be doing that?

Peally
08-02-2016, 02:04 PM
I close my non dominant eye if I need a hard front sight focus for a distant shot. Close up my brain figures it out, you shouldn't need a hard front sight focus on a 3 yard target for example. With a good index seeing fiber should be enough (typically you're focused on the pinpoint spot on the target you want to hit).

IIRC most high end pistol shooters say it's a wash. 2 eyes open is a benefit (especially in the tactical world) if you can do it but you aren't immediately exiled from nationals if you only use one eye.

Gabe will probably weigh in some time on this, he's the eyeball focus analytics king.

Failure2Stop
08-02-2016, 02:21 PM
Visual convergence on target, but focus on front sight.

Best description I know of:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?10210

HopetonBrown
08-02-2016, 02:28 PM
I don't close an eye for any shot.

Mr_White
08-02-2016, 02:35 PM
Everyone's eyes and brain don't work the same way. At least some people can retrain and change how they use their vision, with a little or a lot of effort, and some can't.

For people who have problems with doubled targets, closing or squinting the nondominant eye while aiming is a readily available and workable solution.

For people who have problems with blurry front sights, practicing target-focused shooting, especially in conjunction with a high-visibility front sight is a workable solution.

If possible, yes it's nice to have both eyes open, one blurry target, two sharp and clear front sights (one of which is ignored.) You can attempt to learn to make your vision work this way if it's not the method you naturally fall into. But that's not going to work for everyone, hence plenty of room for closing/squinting and target-focused shooting.

Many people don't use any of these methods exclusively, and vary them according to the nature of the current shot. I'm weird and do shoot pretty much every shot with both eyes open, a blurry target and sharp and clear front sight, even on close and easy targets.

Read this, then we can talk some more.

http://pistol-training.com/articles/vision

There also have been some other fairly extensive discussions of this on PF if anyone is quicker at digging up those links than I am...

Mr_White
08-02-2016, 02:37 PM
Thanks F2S, that is one of the threads I was going to look for. I think there might be a couple others too...

Luke
08-02-2016, 03:43 PM
I keep both eyes wide open no matter the target or distance. I tried everything, and I mean everything, to try to be able to keep both eyes open. The ONLY thing that let me learn to shoot both eyes open was a M&P with a RMR. After I shot that for a couple months it was weird to close one eye.

So, if anyone wants to take the easy route, shoot and train with a dot for a while.

Mr_White
08-02-2016, 05:06 PM
Very interesting Luke! So that has carried over to iron sights huh? Fascinating.

ldunnmobile
08-02-2016, 05:29 PM
Due to some vision issues I can get better focus squinting or closing my non dominant eye but I usually only do it at 25 yards plus.

ldunnmobile
08-02-2016, 05:34 PM
I had some complications with a laser eye surgery and my dominant eye became almost unusable for a while. During this time I used my left eye so much it actually started becoming my dominant eye. Now my dominant eye is much better (though still not as good as the other) and they actually can seemingly fight each other for focus on occasion, thus my need to seal off one on longer precision shots. Was not a pleasant experience but I'm much better now.

miller_man
08-02-2016, 06:14 PM
So, if anyone wants to take the easy route, shoot and train with a dot for a while.

Wanna let me barrow one for a while?
Just to prove you right and all :D.
Seriously though, been really kicking around the idea of trying the red dots soon.




OP, over the last few months I have been back and forth on closing 1 eye for tough, distance shots, or keeping both open. And working on seeing smallish targets quickly - like 2" dots on a draw. My biggest problem too was the doubled target and not knowing where I was on the target. But with lots and lots of dry work, I have gotten much much better at seeing enough of the target and knowing where I am on the target with both eyes open. It feels more natural, and I think its more valuable. I shot the last USPSA match trying to close one eye when I thought I needed to, ended up not knowing what I did or when I may have closed one eye.

One thing that I found (from reading one of those threads) - is not seeking such a hard focus on the front sight. I have learned to somewhat hold my sharp focus just out past the front sights. I can't really explain what I focus on, but I know I my sights go just out of sharp focus. But I still see plenty to see a really good sight picture, and I can make out a ton more on the target.

Put it this way.
With my sights, I have a serrated rear - when I see the serrations on the rear sight, I have a super front sight focus. When I can't make the serrations out, but still see all the sharp edges - that is where I have learned I want to be (atleast for my eyes). And I have verified all of this with live fire.

Also, I have felt like the more time I spend working on seeing tough sight pictures with my dominat eye, and ignoring the weak eye picture - the easier it becomes, and the more I can control it. It seems like strenghtning the eye to do what you need it to do.

As for now, I'm pulling away quickly from closing/squinting one eye. YMMV.

nycnoob
08-02-2016, 06:28 PM
So, if anyone wants to take the easy route, shoot and train with a dot for a while.

Seems to be the opposite of many peoples advice. Usually people suggest you learn the hard thing first: stick shift, manual typewriter, revolver, iron sights.

I did read one persons advice that was the same as yours in a catchy saying: "everyone should learn to use iron sights but no one should learn on iron sights"

EM_
08-02-2016, 06:37 PM
I vary it. Up close and fast both eyes are open. The more precision required in a shot the more I start closing the non dominant eye.

Luke
08-02-2016, 06:59 PM
If I still had a rmr'd gun I'd let everyone shoot it. Yes Gabe, it did cross over to irons.

Luke
08-02-2016, 07:05 PM
Seems to be the opposite of many peoples advice. Usually people suggest you learn the hard thing first: stick shift, manual typewriter, revolver, iron sights.

I did read one persons advice that was the same as yours in a catchy saying: "everyone should learn to use iron sights but no one should learn on iron sights"


The way I look at it is if you learn to drive a manual first, all your focus is on making the correct gear change. There is so much more to driving than changing gears. Your missing so much by using up all your focus trying to focus on one specific thing. This is a little zen for me.. Doc gave me the good cough syrup.

spinmove_
08-03-2016, 06:18 AM
Everyone's eyes and brain don't work the same way. At least some people can retrain and change how they use their vision, with a little or a lot of effort, and some can't.

For people who have problems with doubled targets, closing or squinting the nondominant eye while aiming is a readily available and workable solution.

For people who have problems with blurry front sights, practicing target-focused shooting, especially in conjunction with a high-visibility front sight is a workable solution.

If possible, yes it's nice to have both eyes open, one blurry target, two sharp and clear front sights (one of which is ignored.) You can attempt to learn to make your vision work this way if it's not the method you naturally fall into. But that's not going to work for everyone, hence plenty of room for closing/squinting and target-focused shooting.

Many people don't use any of these methods exclusively, and vary them according to the nature of the current shot. I'm weird and do shoot pretty much every shot with both eyes open, a blurry target and sharp and clear front sight, even on close and easy targets.

Read this, then we can talk some more.

http://pistol-training.com/articles/vision

There also have been some other fairly extensive discussions of this on PF if anyone is quicker at digging up those links than I am...

For the record, I'm cross-dominant (right handed, left eyed) and slightly near-sighted (20/40 uncorrected, 20/15 corrected). I do wear eye glasses.

I have read through that article and the corresponding thread. It was a little bit ago though so I'm in the process of reading through it again. I guess the main problem that I have though is that when I do get my target focused convergence and somehow get my accommodation to shift to my front sight, I still get a "ghosting overlay" of an object that is actually just left of the target that appears over and around the actual target. Although the "ghosting overlay" doesn't seem to effect a 6" to 8" target circle area at any given distance, the target is blurry. Given these circumstances I found that on 5 to Glock IV, on targets #2 and #3, I had arguably the most trouble. I had a brown cardboard target with a brown cardboard target on either side of them. Using both eyes open on shots for those particular targets at speed was interesting to say the least.

I guess I need to work on convergence and accommodation exercises to see if I can work out the kinks and refine what I'm seeing. Obviously this will be a process and I'm still reading through that article and thread again too. Hopefully I'll have an "ah ha!" moment and it'll all just fall into place so I can practice the crap out of it.

I do very much appreciate the insight from everyone. It sounds like a lot of people aren't finding it too difficult to take precise shots on interesting targets at speed with both eyes open. This makes me hopeful that I should figure out how to be able to do the same.

P.E. Kelley
08-03-2016, 07:24 AM
Squint or not, I don't think it makes much difference provided you have the fundamentals down.

This guy has a metric ton of experience!
(Sorry I only have a couple of photos from that camera set-up)

http://www.multigunmedia.com/img/s9/v87/p1816408561-4.jpg

spinmove_
08-03-2016, 07:36 AM
Squint or not, I don't think it makes much difference provided you have the fundamentals down.

This guy has a metric ton of experience!
(Sorry I only have a couple of photos from that camera set-up)

http://www.multigunmedia.com/img/s9/v87/p1816408561-4.jpg

He appears to be a right-handed, right eyed dude shooting a 2011 with a red FO front who happens to be a USPSA sponsored shooter. Unfortunately I don't recognize him.

spinmove_
08-05-2016, 08:16 AM
Ok, so I finally had a chance to try to work out schisming convergence and accommodation. For me, this stage, it's tough and I can't seem to hold it for very long. My eyes naturally want to snap back to converging where my accommodation is. I do finally see exactly what Mr_White is talking about though. I'll keep practicing, but are there any other tips on how to make that transition easier? Any other excersizes?

nwhpfan
08-05-2016, 11:39 AM
If I see double, I close an eye. But if I see double I usually see two targets too.... so if it's aligned I still make the shot. It's just something that happened when you put something between your eyes.

Try shooting before the double vision occurs.

Failure2Stop
08-05-2016, 12:27 PM
Ok, so I finally had a chance to try to work out schisming convergence and accommodation. For me, this stage, it's tough and I can't seem to hold it for very long. My eyes naturally want to snap back to converging where my accommodation is. I do finally see exactly what Mr_White is talking about though. I'll keep practicing, but are there any other tips on how to make that transition easier? Any other excersizes?

As the ancient proverb says, "just do it."

It's just like any other thing in life: takes work.
Dry fire.
Draw to single shots.
Draw to multiple shots.
Draw to single shots on multiple targets.
Repetitions of holding focus, with super-fine detail appreciation (don't just see the front sight, see the speck of dust on the edge of the blade of the front sight).

My best repetition is done while driving, I think.

GJM
08-05-2016, 01:20 PM
Repetitions of holding focus, with super-fine detail appreciation (don't just see the front sight, see the speck of dust on the edge of the blade of the front sight).

How old are you?

Failure2Stop
08-05-2016, 02:25 PM
How old are you?

37 physical earth years.
Probably closer to 17 mentally.

I assume that you are asking due to an age-related vision disagreement.
I'm not saying that you have to have the visual acuity to see that detail at arm's length, but rather to prevent the practitioner from hitting a mid-range focus due to lack of effort.

GJM
08-05-2016, 03:33 PM
37 physical earth years.
Probably closer to 17 mentally.

I assume that you are asking due to an age-related vision disagreement.
I'm not saying that you have to have the visual acuity to see that detail at arm's length, but rather to prevent the practitioner from hitting a mid-range focus due to lack of effort.

I am saying because in my 20's and 30's, I could tell you whether the Heinie front sight on my 1911 had eight or nine serrations. Today, I can tell you whether the sight is black or orange and whether the tritium element has a white ring around it or not. :)

Interestingly, I think you can still do fine work with iron sights with a blurry front sight, although I prefer bright over dim light.

Failure2Stop
08-05-2016, 03:56 PM
I think you can still do fine work with iron sights with a blurry front sight, although I prefer bright over dim light.

Agreed.

GJM
08-05-2016, 04:01 PM
I am not generally envious, but when I went and looked for your "speck of dust on the edge of the blade of the front sight" earlier, I couldn't find it.

Duelist
08-05-2016, 04:06 PM
I can barely keep both eyes open when shooting a shotgun at a flying target. When I try with a pistol, I usually still hit paper. Somewheres.

Duelist
08-05-2016, 07:08 PM
you can learn to focus on the "inside one' of the "2 guns" that you see if you leave both eyes open. That means, the left one if you're shooting right handed, the right one if you're shooting left handed. Then you'll be using the correct eye to go with the shooting hand. With practice, the "other gun" will "go away". and you'll be able to see twice as much of the threat area as if you closed one eye. Nobody can see more than half of their world at any one time, without having to turn their head/body. So making things twice as bad, by closing one eye, is a very bad idea, for combat shooting.

I usually close my non-shooting eye just before I fire. Not walking around with one eye closed. May not be optimal, but it's where I'm at.

spinmove_
08-06-2016, 11:20 AM
So I had an epiphany when I went to the range this morning (indoor range with OK at best lighting). I've been having trouble using my thumb as a front sight when doing convergence/accommodation separation exercises. Getting out to the range and doing the same thing with irons felt completely different. Probably because a front sight is nowhere near as huge as my thumbnail. I did as Mr_White suggested and tried it also on my way home from work yesterday "aiming" a speck on my windshield at the car in front of me. I noticed that it took nowhere near as much effort than with my thumbnail. I then noticed something else. While driving on our ever so lovely Michigan roads, the speck bounced around a lot. Much like a red dot on a rifle under recoil (or so I would imagine, I've never actually shot a RDS on a rifle before). I was able to maintain the convergence/accommodation schism "under recoil" all whilst driving completely fine and normal. I was then immediately reminded of a comment that I think Luke made in either this thread or another when he stated that after shooting a MRDS on a pistol, he was able to maintain the same C/A schism with irons.

Fast forward to this morning. Shooting with one eye closed definitely seemed to hamper myself at speed, but I also seemed to somehow shoot slightly left consistently. I then tried the C/A schism with both eyes open. Not only did it feel more natural to shoot this way, but I was also calling shots and when I called them dead on, they were pretty much dead on. Tracking the sights under recoil was significantly different and slower than tracking my "windshield red dot". I suspect that this is due to the fact that there's a slide involved and a while spot of paint on an all black sight set isn't the most visible or outstanding.

Obviously this will take some time and practice to become faster and more proficient, but I like where this is going. Thanks for everyone's help and comments. Some differing perspectives and language somewhat pushed me in the right direction I think.