USPc 45 vs P220 Carry

[OlongJohnson]

I really like both USP 45 and P220.

Having an attack of GAS triggered by the USPc 45s at CDNN for a really good price. Already have a single-stack .45 or two, and the functional part of a gun-ownership Venn diagram that this would cover that isn't already filled in is miniscule. The smart thing is to forget about it and move on, but GAS can make a person stupid. With that acknowledged, I'm interested in hearing opinions about both setups:

UPSc 45 with some version of LEM
P220C (maybe SAS) with DAK

If the plan was to stick with V1 and DA/SA triggers, it'd be the Sig for its trigger, by a mile.

Anybody used them both? Trigger preferences? General preferences?

[GJM]

Not exactly the same, but a few years ago, I shot a bunch of FAST tests with a P220 DA/SA and HK45 LEM.

I was consistently faster with the P220.

What the HK Has going for it is reliability and durability. Didn't TLG go some ungodly number of rounds with his HK45 without breaking a single part? Then there is the story of the secretary from Federal Cartridges calling up HK to send their USP in for its first periodic maintenance. CS guy asked her how many rounds, and after looking, she reported like 267,000 or some crazy similar number.

[OlongJohnson]

Yup. I'm sold on USP 45s in general. Been tracking your thread. Just have very limited experience with the USPc 45 and none with live fire of any DAK trigger.

I'd expect Sig DA/SA to be faster than LEM. I "accidentally" handled a standard P226 DA at the LGS some time ago, and the smoothness of that DA pull compared to a USP Match trigger DA pull has cost me some money.

[SAWBONES]

This may not be helpful, since my experience with these guns is almost twenty years old, but I've owned two each of the P220 and USP 45c, and don't own any of them anymore.

The Sig P220s (one European with the butt-heel mag release, the other American, but before the rebounding hammer) were definitely the more accurate & precise, and IMO had the better "build quality".

The two USPc 45s were different "versions", and I could never warm to their DA/SA trigger actions (this was before LEM or DAK), having been spoiled by P7s, and I accordingly expected a degree of quality from H&K better than I felt I got in the USPc guns.

[LSP972]

I really like both USP 45 and P220.


Anybody used them both? Trigger preferences? General preferences?

Used them both- a lot- owned them both.

Started the P220 in 1994 (began with the P226 in 1988, then the P228 in 1990). Carried and shot them all quite a bit, ended with the P220. Got my first USPc .45 in 2004, and have stayed with HK since... unless you count the few times (and short ones) I stayed with a personal Glock.

There are basically two LEM versions; one without (main), and one with (rarely), a thumb safety lever. Some folks think that thumb lever is a good thing. Not me, but whatever.

A recurring thing on this forum is how certain trigger actions- regardless of what pistol- are better than others for real short times between quick pulls; tenths of inch differences between target drills due to 'quicker' triggers; etc. Again, a bit too... unimportant... difference (which always shows the LEM to be distant second place- to them) is very seriously talked about here. If one is concerned strictly about a match/competition pistol, well, no problem; they are right. If one is concerned about a carry pistol- for real carry, not IDPA practice- then, to some of us who have carried professionally for a long time, and had a lot to do with how they work/are used... the LEM is hands-down the best for that sort of thing. In MY opinion, anyway.

Sorry, have no idea of what GAS (or a Venn diagram, for that matter) means. Maybe I'm missing something there. At any rate, lately I've seen more than a few people here who have figured out that, while the LEM isn't as fast, isn't as accurate, as a good DA/SA Sig classic P-series trigger is, the LEM is better as an EDC pistol trigger action because it is least likely to screw up with; especially if you keep your thumb over the hammer while re-holstering. Again, some agree with that, some don't.

But you asked the opinion, so... ;)

.

[OlongJohnson]

Thanks for taking the time to type that out. It echoes what I think I remember reading from Nyeti. I'd be interested in either of you commenting on LEM vs. DAK. I'm up to speed (conceptually, at least) on the short reset/high force thing with DAK, whereas LEM is more like a normal short reset. I'm guessing that neither you nor Nyeti are fans of riding the reset when there's a BG in the sights, which would make this less of an issue. Is that a bad guess?

GAS: gun/gear acquisition syndrome

Venn diagram (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram)

[Beat Trash]

If you are talking about a DA/SA trigger system in both the Sig and the HK, then I agree with your statement that the Sig trigger is much nicer, especially in DA mode.

If you are talking about a Sig DAK trigger vs. a HK LEM trigger, then from my experience the HK is much nicer.

If you are planning on using your gun for competitions, the forget both types of triggers and get a SA pistol or a striker fired pistol..

But if you are planning on training with this gun and carrying it solely as a defensive tool, one that would be used in adverse conditions and while under stress, then the LEM trigger has a lot of positive things going for it. LSP 972 summed it up well. Nyeti has made similar statements in the past.

[LSP972]

I'm guessing that neither you nor Nyeti are fans of riding the reset when there's a BG in the sights, which would make this less of an issue.

GAS: gun/gear acquisition syndrome

Venn diagram (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram)

The DAK trigger sucks; period. I suppose there are some folks who actually like it... okay, I guess.

Keep in mind that almost any type trigger (EXCEPT the horrible DAK; which a folk or two likes) is going to be easier and/or better shooting than an LEM. They are also going to be easier to:

1. Shoot themselves
2. Shoot the wrong person
3. Shoot the right person at the wrong time

And, we could go on, but I think you get the point. Yes, one can mess up/make mistakes with the LEM, too. They just have to work at it a bit more.:cool:

Thanks for the information. I'm on my old mini-something right now, just dropped the wife off on her way out of state, and this thing can be cranky about inter web stuff. I'll check it out when I get home this evening.

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[Hauptmann]

I've also used the P220 quite a bit on duty over the years. As a whole, it is a pretty accurate .45acp with "decent" reliability and durability. However, by today's pistol standards it is lacking in handling. Magazine changes are easier to fumble under stress with the lack of magazine taper. The mag springs tend to weaken faster on the high compression single stack, and the feeding angle of the magazines is less than efficient resulting in the cartridges literally popping out of the mag during feeding and the action slamming home on a free floating cartridge. The recoil spring is overly stiff resulting in harder slide manipulation, harder malfunction clearing during a mag strip, and higher stress on the gun when the action closes. The P220 uses the old style L-shaped trigger bar spring which is less durable than the coiled spring introduced in 1995. Grip screws loosen up and fall out during trainings due to the recoil and design.......unless they are glued into place most screws loosen in about 30-50rds. Also, the felt recoil on the P220 can get downright painful with higher powered defensive loads like Winchester Ranger Bonded due to the steep grip angle and thin grip in the hand web. I'm sure there are more beefs I have come across, but I haven't had my coffee yet this morning. Lets put it this way, the P220 was originally designed as a 9mm single stack, and it was retrofitted over the years to make it a .45acp. After a while, I found that the P226 9mm was a far easier gun to shoot well......particularly under stress so I switched to that.

On the other hand, I recently got a P227 and this .45acp Sig is quite impressive. It corrects most of the faults of the P220 series and I would put it up against a HK45 any day. The grip is no bigger than that of a standard P226, and the lower receiver utilizes all the engineering improvements of the P226 series......and then some. The magazines are actually shorter than the P226 and P220 mags, making for easier manipulation. I would still have more confidence in the overall durability of the HK45, but the P227 is a strong contender and I hope Sig does the smart thing and makes a 8+1 P227 compact. I'm probably going to switch over to the P227 as my duty gun which says a lot if it will replace the P226 9mm.

[psalms144.1]

I've owned quite a few P220s and two HK USP 45cs over the year. Why so many P220s? Because I never found one I shot worth a darn, compared to it's most direct competitor, the 1911 (single stack metal frame pistol). I found them to be "flippy" in recoil, with a fairly harsh "smack" of recoil into the web of the hand. The USP 45Cs were different, softer shooting, less "flippy." The Sigs were DA/SA and the triggers tended to be decent, smooth, manageable weight, decent reset and minimal creep. EVERY HK DA/SA trigger I've ever handled has sucked donkey balls - HEAVY, gritty, with hitches/stops in DA; liveable reset length but plenty of creep and pre-travel even in SA.

Flip the script to DAK vs LEM, and the triggers are reversed. The DAK "light" pull is heavier than the LEM's standard pull, and the mid-reset "heavy" DAK is in the 10+ pound range, which is fine if you're used to shooting DA revolvers only in DA mode, but which blows for most of us. I'm issued a DAK-equipped Sig, and its case only comes out of my safe twice per year when I'm mandated to shoot it for qualification. I don't even own any holsters for it anymore except a Safariland ALS I used for those two range sessions/year. The only reason I haven't turned it in (we have a liberal personal weapons policy) is that when our HQ authorized agents to return their DAKs if they preferred a personal weapon(s), so many agents returned their pistols that they ran out of room to store anymore, so HQ stopped the turn-in program. In fact, when my agency (finally) established a tactical element two years ago, the first thing they did was procure the parts to convert all their issued Sigs into DA/SA pistols (because so few of the applicants could pass the required qualification with the DAK pistols).

LEM isn't magic sauce for fast splits, and it's a trigger that really requires practice to master without burying shots, but I'd take an LEM-equipped pistol over a DAK pistol any day of the week (and, in fact, did so for about 18 months after rage-quitting Glocks).

The USPc's I owned were both extremely accurate and boringly reliable.

Now, don't mistake me, I have been SOUNDLY out-shot on at least two occasions by some REALLY talented shooters using their issued P229R 40 DAKs, even when I was shooting a G19 - so the DAK isn't completely unusable...

[Edster]

I had a USPc 45 for a while. This was probably 2004-ish just as the LEM was coming out. Mine was V1 and I was planning to go LEM eventually.

It had some failures to eject at first which HK fixed. They said they did an extractor adjustment.

I took a course with it and shot one or two matches.

I liked it a lot. After HK fixed it, it was totally reliable, as accurate as I could be, and enjoyable to shoot. For some reason, 200 grain ammo shot low in it but 185 and 230 were good.

I liked the grip and the ambi mag release. My only ergonomic fuss was it felt top-heavy -- like the slide was wide and all the weight was in it. It's also a big gun for a "compact".

[OlongJohnson]

On the other hand, I recently got a P227 and this .45acp Sig is quite impressive. It corrects most of the faults of the P220 series and I would put it up against a HK45 any day. The grip is no bigger than that of a standard P226, and the lower receiver utilizes all the engineering improvements of the P226 series......and then some. The magazines are actually shorter than the P226 and P220 mags, making for easier manipulation. I would still have more confidence in the overall durability of the HK45, but the P227 is a strong contender and I hope Sig does the smart thing and makes a 8+1 P227 compact. I'm probably going to switch over to the P227 as my duty gun which says a lot if it will replace the P226 9mm.

For some reason, I've ignored the P227 up to now. I stopped by the LGS on the way home tonight and handled one. The E2 grip shape concept really doesn't work for me on a P226, and it turns out it isn't any better on the P227. Unfortunately, it appears that Sig integrated E2-ness into the basic design so that all grips, even non-E2-type G10 grips made by Hogue (haven't found any others), have that "squeezed in at the top" configuration. Even with a standard-reach trigger, my paw wanted a "grip force adapter"-type filler.

This thread has exposed me to something I hadn't considered, which I was able to investigate to my satisfaction. It has helped me clarify some other things in my mind, and at this point seems to have cleared the GAS from the room. Thanks to all who contributed.