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Mr_White
07-29-2016, 10:42 AM
Week 175: If You Aren't Accurate Enough, It Doesn't Matter How Fast You Are

Results may be posted until August 29th, 2016.

Designed by: Gabe White
Range: 25 yards
Target: USPSA Metric, IDPA, or other silhouette target
Start Position: Ready
Rounds Fired: 2


If you aren't accurate enough, it doesn't matter how fast you are...

Many people have expressed this kind of sentiment, but I first remember hearing it said this way by USPSA Production Champion Ben Stoeger. This week we have a test intended to focus on that idea - if you don't hit the target, speed is pretty irrelevant. We'll explore the other side of the coin later.

Start with loaded handgun at the ready, target at 25 yards. No start signal and no time limit. Shoot exactly two shots to the head of the target (entire head counts.) No extra shots allowed. You must have both hits in the head to Pass.

Please report the following when you post your results in this thread:

Gun and target used
Number of hits out of two possible
Pass or Fail
Observations: anything you noticed

Training with firearms is an inherently dangerous activity. Be sure to follow all safety protocols when using firearms or practicing these drills. These drills are provided for information purposes only. Use at your own risk.

RJ
07-29-2016, 10:53 AM
Gabe - Looks like a good drill. I should be going to the range soon.

I typically tape 8 1/2" x 11" paper with targets printed off of this thread:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2124-Printable-Targets

Unless I missed it, I don't see a USPSA or other sillouette target there. Is it ok to use a B-8 and count the black?

Or is there an open source printable sillouette target file somewhere on p-f.com or p-t.com or elsewhere?

scw2
07-29-2016, 11:15 AM
Gabe - Looks like a good drill. I should be going to the range soon.

I typically tape 8 1/2" x 11" paper with targets printed off of this thread:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2124-Printable-Targets

Unless I missed it, I don't see a USPSA or other sillouette target there. Is it ok to use a B-8 and count the black?

Or is there an open source printable sillouette target file somewhere on p-f.com or p-t.com or elsewhere?

I have one that prints out for a normal sized piece of paper. It's not perfect since I taped two parts together, but it's good enough for practice.

9495

ETA it's sorta slanted. If someone has a better one I'd love to use theirs :)

Mr_White
07-29-2016, 11:17 AM
Gabe - Looks like a good drill. I should be going to the range soon.

I typically tape 8 1/2" x 11" paper with targets printed off of this thread:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2124-Printable-Targets

Unless I missed it, I don't see a USPSA or other sillouette target there. Is it ok to use a B-8 and count the black?

Or is there an open source printable sillouette target file somewhere on p-f.com or p-t.com or elsewhere?

Rich, I'd always prefer that people be able to participate. If that requires a modification of the target, no problem. So I'm fine with using the black of a B8, though it will be a bit harder than a ~6x6" head box. It's probably pretty easy to make yourself a 6x6" square of paper too - doesn't really matter that it isn't attached to a torso.

Clusterfrack
07-29-2016, 11:18 AM
I sort of did this drill yesterday, but shot 10 to the head. Hope it's ok to report that here.

Gun: p320 GGI
Target: USPSA Metric
Pass: 10/10 (I think I had 6 As)
Observations: At 25yds, the head is framed nicely inside the rear notch with a little light on each side. It's easier for me to "aim small" to the head than it is to the lower A zone.

RJ
07-29-2016, 12:55 PM
Rich, I'd always prefer that people be able to participate. If that requires a modification of the target, no problem. So I'm fine with using the black of a B8, though it will be a bit harder than a ~6x6" head box. It's probably pretty easy to make yourself a 6x6" square of paper too - doesn't really matter that it isn't attached to a torso.

Ah - 6" x 6" head box - cool. That works!

RJ
07-29-2016, 01:53 PM
Ah - 6" x 6" head box - cool. That works!

Here is my attempt at a printable target file.

My USPSA rulebook (Feb 2014) has the Metric Target defined in Appendix 3. I think I read accurately that the "head" is 15 cm x 15 cm, or approximately 5.9" square. So I put a graphic box approximately 5.9" x 5.9" on top of another. The source file is Openoffice Draw *.odt file, exported to a *.pdf.

Anyway, if it helps anyone, here it is.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160729/b07c860bbdea59a3c665a511e845972a.jpg

RJ
07-29-2016, 01:57 PM
I sort of did this drill yesterday, but shot 10 to the head. Hope it's ok to report that here.




I think you ought to get credit for 5 drills of the week. :cool:

hiro
07-29-2016, 03:37 PM
First time I've posted to the DOTW, here goes...
9512
Accurate enough.

9513
Pretty much on the money

9514
Getting cocky... fail.

Glock 17K gen 4.
IPSC
124 grain lawman.
25 yards.

1st attempt, 2/2 pass
2nd 2/2 pass
3rd 1/2 fail.

My accuracy is OK, it's when I try to up the speed it all goes to shit. (About to post my DOTW 172 where you'll see this). Lighting is pretty poor at the range I shoot at, with my eyesight I can barely see the outline.

Mr_White
07-29-2016, 03:51 PM
Very nice hiro and clusterfrack!

52Hubcap
07-29-2016, 07:02 PM
You've probably heard, "You can't miss fast enough to win."

MVS
07-30-2016, 09:16 AM
9535

G19 w/RMR, Tula 115, IDPA target
2 for 2
Pass
I tried it twice more to make sure it wasn't a fluke. 6 for 6. It definitely seems tougher for me to make good hits at this distance using this type of target vs a b8.

scw2
07-30-2016, 12:49 PM
Shot this with CZ 75 SP-01
Used a mix of Herters and PMC 9mm.

Overall - failed since I didn't clean all my reps at 25 yards.

Started at 25 yds and passed two times with PMC, then went 1/2 on the next two rounds with Herters.

Shot same target at 30, 35, 40 and 50 yards, alternating Herters and PMC. Cleaned it both times at 30, went 1/2 on all runs at 35 and 40 yards. Shot at 50 yards 6 times, zero'ing it twice, goint 1/2 three times, and 2/2 once.

Brought it back in to 25 yards, and shot it twice each with each set of ammo. Cleaned it 3 times, and zero'd it the one time to push speed to see what would happen.


9545

Anything I noticed:
1. PMC seems to shoot a bit high for me.
2. Might be a good idea to use a higher contrast target for future practice, or put an index card on the target, if it's going to be white paper with thin black outlines.
3. Need to really focus, but feels interesting that I feel much more confident shooting at 25 yards now. Surprising that the prior week practice wasn't a fluke and I could hit reasonably reliably at 50 yards. Still lots of work to do with too many fliers and lack of a nice tight grouping.

Distribution of outcomes by distance (by hits of 0/2, 1/2 or 2/2)
9546

okie john
07-30-2016, 04:43 PM
I did OK on this one.

Two shots fired, two hits. Gen4 G19, 147-grain American Eagle ammo.

http://i.imgur.com/tngcOOy.jpg (http://imgur.com/tngcOOy)

Things I Noticed:

Ammo matters. This gun shoots AE 147 exceptionally well, so I stick with it.
Zero matters. This G19 is dead on at 25.
Fundamentals matter.



Okie John

mike.burgess.353
07-30-2016, 04:44 PM
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160730/3f370ce4b191dc01e5ea5dace7ad4995.jpg
Tried this twice today.

First
Ruger SR 1911
Load Extreme 230 RN over Clay dot
Uspsa metric target
2 B hits (taped in picture)
Pass

Second try
Smith and Wesson 4" model 66 revolver. Shot double action
Load Blue Bullets 147 RN over Clay Dot
Pass 1A 1B hits (shown in the picture)

Shot both guns cold, first 4 shots of the day. The actual shooting felt easier than I was expecting, but it did require conscious discipline to not let the front sight slip out of focus.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

JHC
07-31-2016, 01:46 PM
Gen 4 G17
2/2 (14.51)
2/2 (10.62)

RTF2 G19 KKM comp
2/2 (14.72)
2/2 (7.48)

G43
1/2 (17.72)
1/2 (7.64)

Sig P226
2/2 (10.40)
2/2 (12.02)

Even without a formal time standard I didn't see any point in not measuring it anyway. I was curious what the natural seeing what I needed to see would look like.

hiro
07-31-2016, 01:54 PM
G43
1/2 (17.72)
1/2 (7.64)


What's up with the G43 score?

JHC
08-01-2016, 06:14 AM
LOL I know right?

I dunno. I got some good runs on the plate rack from 25 yards too. I will work on that capable little gun.

wmu12071
08-01-2016, 05:55 PM
Glock 19 with a RMR06 147gr HST. 5" x 5" square
1/2 FAIL!!! I called the miss.
2/2 Pass
2/2 Pass
1/2 FAIL!!!
2/2 Pass
1/1 Pass? (Only had one round left)

About the drill:
When I focused on the press I shot it clean. I think i would do ok with iron if I focused on pressing the trigger. When I focused on the dot I jerked the shot low.

I went 2% Pat Mac on this, I shot my first group and jogged to the target to look. After that I was sprinting there taking a look and sprinting back then draw, aim, fire, aim, fire, and relax, reholster.

jdesro
08-02-2016, 03:37 PM
S&W M&P 9mm Handload of Zero 125 gr HP and WSF
USPSA Metric
2/2 PASS!

I know this didn't have to be timed, but I did it anyway. First shot at 5.71 sec., second at 13.05 sec.

I haven't shot this particular pistol in about four months. I was trying out a new handload - it seems to be pretty good! Got it on video too!


https://youtu.be/05Z96urspEU

Mr_White
08-04-2016, 09:43 AM
Gen3 G34, USPSA Metric target
2 for 2
Pass
Observations: I see a lot of other people timed it, now I wish I had too - probably five or so seconds total, not exactly slow fire. But this one is just about making the hits.

https://c5.staticflickr.com/9/8678/28731606716_1ee5d20214_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/KLUZFA)20160803_175329 (https://flic.kr/p/KLUZFA) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

BehindBlueI's
08-04-2016, 09:44 PM
Got it, but barely:
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb183/Docwagon1776/Shared/20160804_192134_zpsxgav9xkr.jpg

Figured I'd give it a second try and try to get the entire bullet hole on paper...

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb183/Docwagon1776/Shared/20160804_192311_zpsa13gz8le.jpg

Range1
08-05-2016, 01:10 PM
Equipment: Glock 17, CompTac OWB holster, vest, USPSA Metric target

First try: 0/2 in the head, 11.11 seconds
Second try: 2/2 in the head in 10.67

http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss102/Range1826/60841e29-70c5-49e4-b729-071a200fd76c_zpsv7yoahp3.jpg (http://s566.photobucket.com/user/Range1826/media/60841e29-70c5-49e4-b729-071a200fd76c_zpsv7yoahp3.jpg.html)

Recently this gun/ammo combination has resulted in high shots with a 6 O'clock hold at 25 yards so I held on the neck line resulting in POA=POI at the top of the front sight blade (shots 1&2 in photo). Adjusted to top of sight blade hold and had 2 almost in the A box (shots 3&4). Was very happy with these shots as all 4 were actually POA-POI. Got a little cocky and went down hill from there. Finally packed up and went home. But at least these rounds were good.

GAP
08-05-2016, 06:32 PM
I decided to try this cold with a standard 3x5 index card. Fired two shots, landed both, then tried again.
Glock 26 Gen 4 - HST 147gr

9691

scw2
08-07-2016, 09:29 PM
Shot this 3 times with my CZ 75 SP-01.

First was untimed: 2/2
2nd attempt shot from concealment: 0/2 both high (3.90 + 2.04 = 5.94 sec)
Slowed down and corrected for what I think is PMC shooting higher...
Final attempt shot from concealment: 2/2 (4.54 + 2.92 = 7.46 sec)

I think 5 seconds should definitely be doable. Draw was slow in terms of getting gun out to extension, and was maybe a bit too conservative on the 2nd run from concealment. I think I can shoot it a bit faster, but honestly will need to test it. Will try this for more reps and do some dedicated longer distance training on one of the next few range sessions on the timer to see what I can really do under time pressure.

9735

BaiHu
08-07-2016, 10:21 PM
I did OK on this one.

Two shots fired, two hits. Gen4 G19, 147-grain American Eagle ammo.

http://i.imgur.com/tngcOOy.jpg (http://imgur.com/tngcOOy)

Things I Noticed:

Ammo matters. This gun shoots AE 147 exceptionally well, so I stick with it.
Zero matters. This G19 is dead on at 25.
Fundamentals matter.



Okie John

This ^^^
I failed miserably today. Then I noticed my 115gr S&B tends to float high. When I switched to carry 147, I hit 2 right next to each other just low right near the neck/shoulder.

I need a lot of work here.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

scw2
08-14-2016, 08:07 PM
Shot this with CZ 75 SP-01 with Gestalt from CCC from concealment with a polo.

Mostly I've felt pretty comfortable making the hits shooting without pushing time, so I've wanted to see what happens when I start pushing for time.

String 1: Started slowfire to warm up (2/2) pass
String 2: 4.50 (2/2)
String 3: 3.58 (1/2)
String 4: 3.80 (1/2)
String 5: 3.62 (1/2)
String 6: 4.54 (2/2)
String 7: 4.49 (0/2)
String 8: 3.97 (2/2)

Overall, hit 11/16 with 4 A and 7 B. I think I can clean up the draw, taking too much time to clean up sights. That applies for the follow up shot. I think also need to be cleaner on the trigger press. Otherwise, did clean it once at a sub-4.0 sec pace, but most of those runs had 1 of 2 shots miss.

9876

CCT125US
08-14-2016, 08:30 PM
Hk P2000 v2
Trijicon 3 dot
S&B 124gr FMJ

Observations: journal entry coming, but for reasons I have been using a drive the dot sight picture. In theory I hate DTD, but in practice it is working well.

9879

scw2
08-20-2016, 08:23 PM
Ran with CZ 75 SP-01, all from CCC Gestalt holster and polo shirt. I wanted to time myself since I feel relatively comfortable hitting without time pressure, but I often struggle with the balance of speed and accuracy in USPSA matches.

Strings 1-4 were shot at 25 yards:
1) 2.05, 1.30 = 3.35 sec (2/2)
2) 2.16, 1.19 = 3.35 sec (0/2) - poor index/draw, tried to break shots as I corrected sights and FS moved through target and missed both. I fail at PE Kelley's technique.
3) 2.37, 1.45 = 3.82 sec (2/2)
4) 2.14, 1.36 = 3.50 sec (2/2)

Strings 5&6 were at 50 yards:
5) 3.03, 3.13 = 6.21 sec (0/2) PMC hits high, corrected next string
6) 5.18, 1.56 = 6.75 sec (2/2) Draw too slow and too much correction/verification on sight picture. Great to know I had a split on 2nd shot almost the same speed at at 25 yds, which is something I should work on more (distance shooting with speed/accuracy, maybe 25-50 yd bill drills)

9992

Key observations:
1. Draws too slow
2. Splits at 50 yd can be pretty close to what I did at 25 yds, but will need work to get consistency.
3. Need to do more work at 25 and 50 yds for both draw and splits, maybe bill drills

DEG
08-21-2016, 12:36 PM
Three reps of the drill this morning. I didn't time the shots, but all were within about 10 seconds or so.
Gun and target used: HK P30 LEM 4.1, USPSA target
Number of hits out of two possible: 2 x 3 reps = 6 hits
Pass or Fail: Pass
Observations: I like shooting the HK LEM at distance without time pressure :)

10002

hiro
08-22-2016, 04:40 PM
OK, I revisited this after failing DOTW 177 (which I'm about to post)

10022

G17K gen 4.
124 gr American Eagle
IPSC target, 25 yards

ssb
08-25-2016, 11:06 AM
Gun/Ammo: Gen4 G17, stock barrel, 10-8 Performance FO sights (.235"H/.115"W front, .140" rear), Remington 124gr MC
Hits: 2/2
Pass
Observations: Drill wasn't shot cold as I'd fired some wadcutters through my J-Frame before switching to the Glock, but they were my first two rounds fired from the Glock. However, I did deviate from the drill and did it on a timer and from the holster. Time was 5.43s. I have a hard time focusing on the front sight with most sights but these FO sights really help in that area. Overall, I think the time I've spent with my J-Frame is helping my trigger press.

10091

RJ
08-29-2016, 10:14 AM
Talk about just making the deadline.

Shot this twice, VP9, Speer Gold Dot 124 sp. 2 hand. I was near the end of my Live fire and thought, what the heck. I used a made up 15 X 15 CM on the computer.

Try 1: 0 / 2

What a massive fail. Both rounds low and right.

Try 2: 2 / 2.

Woah!! I thought maybe since I had time I'd see if I could make it. I was shocked to see the target when I pulled it back. At the edge with both rounds. Made it by the skin of my teeth.

There's hope for me yet. :cool:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160829/357b193d74e3855224756eda10bbb3bc.jpg

scw2
08-29-2016, 09:12 PM
Aug 29

Really interesting results today. Shot this on the timer to induce some stress and work on performance in competition for tougher far shots. Failed pretty hard. Used my CZ 75 SP01 from AIWB holster and polo shirt for concealment.

Times ranged from 1.86 - 4.02, and I had scores of 0/2 once and 1/2 five times. Failed pretty badly.

What I noticed - trigger and alignment precision was too loose for what needed to be done. After a session of DOTW 177 and bill drills at 7 and 25 yards, I had pushed speed too much at the expense of accuracy, and the hits suffered. Will try to run precision at speed type drills in future after working speed, since I plan to improve my draw time. I think this will force me to be disciplined on dialing it back after going all out for speed on larger and easier targets all day. That's probably one skill I haven't really training in as much before, as I've generally focused on one type of shooting in each session and didn't have too much changing of gears type stuff.

10176