Scout rifle, circa 2016

[GJM]

Starting in the late 80's, I became enamored with the Scout rifle concept, as put forth by Jeff Cooper. In 1991, my wife and I attended API 270 at Gunsite, taught by Jeff Cooper, where we spent a glorious week being exposed to Jeff, the Gunsite staff and facility, all the while being enlightened as to what you can do with a light bolt action rifle that can both deliver a reasonably powerful rifle cartridge quickly up close, and reach way out there and touch something. Over the years, I have had built countless practical rifles, incorporating some to all the features Jeff Cooper thought should be on a Scout rifle. My favorite rifles have been model 70 based, and built by Jim Brockman.

Fast forward to today, where we have different rifles available, different optics available, different laws, and potentially different applications for the light rifle. Consider offerings from Tikka, CZ, Ruger, Kimber and others in the light rifle area that shoot accurately, carry light and cost a fraction of a full up custom rifle. Consider how the scout scope has largely been obsoleted by the low power variable and red dot. Consider laws that limit the action type of rifles and magazine capacity. Consider threats like we have seen in Baton Rouge, Dallas, Orlando, and San Bernardino.

To experiment, I have been thinking about putting together one or more currently available light rifles that will allow me to maintain bolt gun proficiency, shoot steel, paper, small game and even larger animals, and if necessary could be employed defensively. Some possibilities that come to mind are:

CZ 527 in 7.62x39 with a 30mm Aimpoint over the action. Inexpensive ammo, accurate gun, lightweight, tiny magazines, and an action that is slick as snot.

Ruger American, threaded, 16 inch bolt action in .300 BLK. $400, supposedly moa accurate, neat five round magazines. Either a red dot or fixed 2.5 power Leupold as glass.

Tikka CTR in 6.5 or .308, cut down to 16.25 inches to save weight, ten round magazines, great reputation for accuracy, and a yet to be determined optic.

What do you think?

[ranger]

How about the new HOWA mini action 6.5 Grendel and a 1x4 optic? Nice mix of ammo now from Hornady AMAX and SST through PPU/Wolf brass case to Wolf steel case. Comes with mags so no need for conversion.

[Sigfan26]

I like the list. I really love my CZ.


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[Robinson]

I considered the Ruger American bolt gun in 300 BLK before I bought my AR. I did read some reports that the magazines are somewhat cheap and less than reliable -- but they may have corrected the problems since then.

I think there are still some of the Remington Model 7 based rifles that AAC built available. They have a 16" threaded barrel.

[ranger]

I considered the Ruger American bolt gun in 300 BLK before I bought my AR. I did read some reports that the magazines are somewhat cheap and less than reliable -- but they may have corrected the problems since then.

I think there are still some of the Remington Model 7 based rifles that AAC built available. They have a 16" threaded barrel.

https://www.cdnnsports.com/aac-model-7-300-blackout-16-threaded-picatinny.html CDNN has the AAC Model 7 $699

[Luke]

CTR FTW!

[Dave Williams]

Have you seen this video?:
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/12/german-boar-hunter-shows-rapid-fire-skills-with-sauer-202/

Aimpoint, extended mag, 7mm Mag. Cooper would be proud.

[Wheeler]

I considered the Ruger American bolt gun in 300 BLK before I bought my AR. I did read some reports that the magazines are somewhat cheap and less than reliable -- but they may have corrected the problems since then.

I think there are still some of the Remington Model 7 based rifles that AAC built available. They have a 16" threaded barrel.

I bought my son a standard Ruger American in .308 as a hunting rifle. The only issue we've had with the mags thus far is the location of the magazine release. He was about to take a 200 yard shot at a deer from a box stand and as he leaned into the gun it slid forward on the rail of the stand and released the mag, which them fell onto the bottom of the wooden floor of the stand. It rattled him and he didn't take the shot.

Other than that, we've had no issues with feeding from the factory magazines.

[secondstoryguy]

.308 or bust. Out of the three the CTR stands out but I prefer controlled feed in my bolt guns. I also like lighter contour barrels and the medium heavy on the CTR seems like dead weight.

[ldunnmobile]

I think we are very likeminded on scout rifles and I think you will be VERY interested in what I brought home tonight. Will posts pics tomorrow when I get my optics mounted.

[Luke]

.308 or bust. Out of the three the CTR stands out but I prefer controlled feed in my bolt guns. I also like lighter contour barrels and the medium heavy on the CTR seems like dead weight.

He's gonna chop dat sucker up. Might help resesitate the weight.

[MistWolf]

If planning to go with a caliber in the power class of the 7.62x39, an AR type rifle would out class a bolt action, especially in an SBR configuration and fitted with a mini can. I know it's not the Scout rifle concept as canonized by the Colonel, but with the current technology, there it is

[okie john]

To experiment, I have been thinking about putting together one or more currently available light rifles that will allow me to maintain bolt gun proficiency, shoot steel, paper, small game and even larger animals, and if necessary could be employed defensively. Some possibilities that come to mind are:

CZ 527 in 7.62x39 with a 30mm Aimpoint over the action. Inexpensive ammo, accurate gun, lightweight, tiny magazines, and an action that is slick as snot.

Other than some hunting uses, it there any reason not to try this one in .223?


Ruger American, threaded, 16 inch bolt action in .300 BLK. $400, supposedly moa accurate, neat five round magazines. Either a red dot or fixed 2.5 power Leupold as glass.

Interesting cartridge, but I'm a logistics guy, and this one isn't as common as the 5.56 NATO, 7.62 NATO, or 7.62x39.


Tikka CTR in 6.5 or .308, cut down to 16.25 inches to save weight, ten round magazines, great reputation for accuracy, and a yet to be determined optic.

Maybe I'm getting old, but I think that 7.5 pounds is plenty light for a 308. The 6.5 is interesting, but logistics...

Like the idea of a 2.5x Leupold on any of these. Nearly as fast as a red dot but no "cluster of grapes" reticle for my astigmatism. If you go with the CTR, it seems unwise not to have something more like a conventional long-range optic standing by as well.


Okie John

[GJM]

If planning to go with a caliber in the power class of the 7.62x39, an AR type rifle would out class a bolt action, especially in an SBR configuration and fitted with a mini can. I know it's not the Scout rifle concept as canonized by the Colonel, but with the current technology, there it is

I spend time in, near and over CA during the winter months, so I need an AR alternative.

Here is #1 scout/practical rifle now:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpseoudbbbx.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpseoudbbbx.jpeg.html)



Just saw there is a short LOP CZ, that is very interesting to me, as I have great memories from my old CZ, Scoutski.


http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-527-youth-carbine-223-rem/


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[gkieser92]

This may sound weird, but I've thought about the new Henry Long Ranger for this role. Partly because I'm a lefty and so a lot of cool bolt guns are not available to me.

https://www.henryrifles.com/rifles/the-long-ranger/

Only problem is it's a new platform and not vetted yet.

[okie john]

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpseoudbbbx.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpseoudbbbx.jpeg.html)

Interesting shot. It reminds me of some of my adventures with a Ching sling. In the Galco version (which I think you're using here) the main strap runs from the front swivel to the rear swivel, with a runner than goes from the center swivel to the main strap. The problem I found was that the loop where your arm goes could close up as shown in this pic, which makes the sling hard to use in a hurry.

But if you set it up so that the main strap runs from the front swivel to the center swivel, and have the runner go from the rear swivel to the main strap, then your main loop is essentially fixed and can't slip shut. You can't modify a Galco to do that, as the runner is too short. But you can rig it up with a couple of old 1" slings and it works pretty well. Not as good for carrying the rifle, but you can't have everything.


Okie John

[GJM]

It is a Ching made by Andy Langlois. I have so many years (decades) of using one, on so many rifles, it happens without conscious thought!

[GJM]

A consideration with the 527 is 7.62x39 vs .223.

With the 7.62x39 from CZ, it is optimized for the imported sized ammo, and may not be as accurate with American dimension ammo. The .223 model shoots .223 and 5.56.

With just five rounds in the magazine, bigger seems better?

[secondstoryguy]

While I agree that a short AR with light contoured barrel is probably what many consider the modern general purpose rifle it falls short in the field. The problem is that while it can hit at range it really lacks the punch to be as versatile as the .308 (hunting and out past 300). Short of elephant and maybe Cape Buffalo I can hunt pretty much anything in the world with a .308. Can't say the same for a 5.56 or .300. I've been less than impressed with both 5.56 and .300 on smaller hogs at any kind of range so .308 is my go to meat getter.

The one gun that I own that will truly do anything is my .308 bolt gun. It's light, sleek/snag free, pretty much indestructible, and will put lethal rounds on target out to 500-600 with relative ease.

The Canadian ranger Sako CTR is intriguing. I like the iron sights and the 20" barrel. Drop that bitch in a Manners stock with some low power glass and it might work.

[1911Nut]

What's wrong with a Steyr Scout in caliber .308 with a Leupold MK4 1.5-5X20 SPR scope mounted over the action? Is this out of the desired price range?

[secondstoryguy]

GJM...that rifle is dope..just about perfect. Brockman is still building stuff?

[okie john]

The Canadian ranger Sako CTR is intriguing. I like the iron sights and the 20" barrel.

I should not have Googled that.


Okie John

[GJM]

What's wrong with a Steyr Scout in caliber .308 with a Leupold MK4 1.5-5X20 SPR scope mounted over the action? Is this out of the desired price range?

I had one 15 years ago, and it always felt cheap to me compared to a model 70. When it wouldn't light military ball, I sent it down the road.


GJM...that rifle is dope..just about perfect. Brockman is still building stuff?

I was in Jim's shop last week. Still building great rifles, slowly. :)


I should not have Googled that.


Okie John

My wife was just asking about that rifle. Hope Sako brings it to,the US.

Nice thing about .308, is if you had to whack a bear or tough target, you would have more horsepower than .223. .300 BLK or 7.62x39.

[okie john]

My wife was just asking about that rifle. Hope Sako brings it to,the US.

It looks like they might.


Okie John

[nycnoob]

But if you set it up so that the main strap runs from the front swivel to the center swivel, and have the runner go from the rear swivel to the main strap, then your main loop is essentially fixed and can't slip shut.



This sounds similar to the Rhodesian-sling. Its a two point sling. Nyeti uses it on his rifles


http://www.andysleather.com/#!product/prd1/1346151421/rhodesian-sling,-for-your-scout-or-hunting-rifle.

9486

[mmc45414]

Ruger American, threaded, 16 inch bolt action in .300 BLK. $400, supposedly moa accurate, neat five round magazines. Either a red dot or fixed 2.5 power Leupold as glass.

What do you think?

What do I think? I think you are a damn mind reader, that's what I think...

Was in Bud's on Tuesday sizing up the 223 version, but was thinking BLK. I haven't taken the NFA plunge yet so I was also thinking that the fast powders would not be so loud from the short barrel. And really like the low power fixed scope, but was thinking the ACO would be a good matchup.

Not as familiar with the other rifles, but another feature I was intrigued by on the Ruger was the three lug 70 degree bolt throw. But wishing it was stainless.

Maybe another consideration that fits your list might be the 77 in 357, maybe 44. I think you can get a 30mm ring that fits the Ruger receiver. In Ohio that would be a legal deer gun for me now.

But I was thinking about the American because I want to stick my toe in the 300BO pond, even though I have no reason in the world to do so...

[SteveB]

To experiment, I have been thinking about putting together one or more currently available light rifles that will allow me to maintain bolt gun proficiency, shoot steel, paper, small game and even larger animals, and if necessary could be employed defensively.

Hard to meet all criteria in a single rifle, so you end up favoring some characteristics over others:

CZ with Aimpoint:

Nothing will be lighter, shorter or faster. Really handy in and out of small planes, vehicles. Great range gun, can use on medium game, PD, but an intermediate-range cartridge and optic:

9488

.308 scout:

More length and weight, but more capable cartridge and optic. Much better if a chance meeting with a bear is on the menu.

9489

Scoutski/.308 Scout hybrid:

I wanted a rifle that combined the best of the CZ carbine and the .308 Scout; short, light, fast, dependable DBM. Brockman and I came up with this in .308; 18" light barrel, FN SPR (Model 70) action, FN mag kit, conventional bases for receiver-mounted scope (currently has Leupold VXR 2-7X), a bit of scout rail for an Aimpoint; 5 & 10 round mags available (about 1/3 the cost of steel Tikka mags) and they are drop-free:

9490

The CTR, out of the box, is less of a practical rifle, and more of a (hopefully) precision rifle. I picked up one in 6.5 CM yesterday. With a NF 2.5-10 in a Unimount, the Wilderness version of the Langlois Rhodesian sling and an empty mag, it weighs 9 lbs 10 oz. It's raining today, but I will shoot it this weekend. I suppose I could lop 4" off the barrel to try to slim it down, but I think, if it shoots, it will just have to stay porky:

9491

[Mr. Goodtimes]

If money was no object, I have thought for a while it would be super cool to take a Winchester Mod 70 extreme weather 30-06 and cut the barrel to 16.25, add Surefire brake, AI detachable mags, iron sights.


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[JHC]

Nice to see zero advocacy of the extended eye relief scope from the original concept. ;)

I hunted with one on a surplus Mauser a few years (Burris) and it's light gathering handicap was severe.

[jc000]

It looks like they might.


Okie John

It's frustrating – Tikka had a couple of nice looking Battue rifles that never made here to the states (as far as I could figure out). My heart wants a Sako Black Bear in .308 but I'll bet the Canadian Ranger will be very nice and hopefully much less expensive.

[oldtexan]

What's wrong with a Steyr Scout in caliber .308 with a Leupold MK4 1.5-5X20 SPR scope mounted over the action? Is this out of the desired price range?

I've got a Steyr Scout and tried mounting a Leu 1.5-5X on mine. Couldn't get it to work out. The rifle's receiver only has two slots over it, and they aren't in the right place for me to mount the scope and get good eye relief. Too bad Steyr hasn't modified the rifle at some point to have a true Picatinny rail from the rear of the reciver to the front end of the stock.

[LittleLebowski]

Starting in the late 80's, I became enamored with the Scout rifle concept, as put forth by Jeff Cooper. In 1991, my wife and I attended API 270 at Gunsite, taught by Jeff Cooper, where we spent a glorious week being exposed to Jeff, the Gunsite staff and facility, all the while being enlightened as to what you can do with a light bolt action rifle that can both deliver a reasonably powerful rifle cartridge quickly up close, and reach way out there and touch something. Over the years, I have had built countless practical rifles, incorporating some to all the features Jeff Cooper thought should be on a Scout rifle. My favorite rifles have been model 70 based, and built by Jim Brockman.

Fast forward to today, where we have different rifles available, different optics available, different laws, and potentially different applications for the light rifle. Consider offerings from Tikka, CZ, Ruger, Kimber and others in the light rifle area that shoot accurately, carry light and cost a fraction of a full up custom rifle. Consider how the scout scope has largely been obsoleted by the low power variable and red dot. Consider laws that limit the action type of rifles and magazine capacity. Consider threats like we have seen in Baton Rouge, Dallas, Orlando, and San Bernardino.

To experiment, I have been thinking about putting together one or more currently available light rifles that will allow me to maintain bolt gun proficiency, shoot steel, paper, small game and even larger animals, and if necessary could be employed defensively. Some possibilities that come to mind are:

CZ 527 in 7.62x39 with a 30mm Aimpoint over the action. Inexpensive ammo, accurate gun, lightweight, tiny magazines, and an action that is slick as snot.

Ruger American, threaded, 16 inch bolt action in .300 BLK. $400, supposedly moa accurate, neat five round magazines. Either a red dot or fixed 2.5 power Leupold as glass.

Tikka CTR in 6.5 or .308, cut down to 16.25 inches to save weight, ten round magazines, great reputation for accuracy, and a yet to be determined optic.

What do you think?

.300BLK supersonic because ammo commonality with your existing .300BLK ARs.

[Matt O]

It looks like they might.


Okie John

I really hope they make a LH version; I'd be all over that.


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[DamonL]

The original list looks like rifles, I would try, too. The CTR would be too heavy for me as a general purpose bolt gun. For me, I would want a .308 so that would eliminate the CZ. The Ruger can be had in .308 so I would try that one, but I wonder if it can be run hard.

Why is the Ruger Scout, not on the list of possible rifles? It is CRF, short, light (with the synthetic stock), and magazine fed.

The Ruger American Predator in .308 is another possibility.

I have no experience with any of these rifles, so its just me thinking out loud about what I would shop for in a general-purpose bolt rifle.

[UNK]

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/07/20/scout-one-rifle-rule/?utm_source=badaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl

SCOUT: The One Rifle To Rule Them All…

Posted at 9:08 pm on July 20, 2016 by Bob Owens


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steyr scout

I think there is an argument to be made that no other individual had as much of an impact on the usage of small arms in the late 20th and early 21st centuries than Col. Jeff Cooper. Col. Cooper is perhaps best known for popularizing the “four rules” of gun safety and the Modern Technique of the Pistol, which he taught at the shooting school he founded, the world-famous Gunsite Academy.

Those things alone would be a tremendous accomplishment for most people, but Cooper wasn’t content to focus his life only on handguns. Col. Cooper was also a rifleman, and there is an argument to be made that a concept he popularized, the scout rifle, is just beginning to really hit its stride a full decade, after Col. Cooper passed on.

Col. Cooper began developing the concept of the scout rifle in the late 1980s as “the one rifle you would have if you could only have just one rifle.” It might not be as accurate at distance as a precision rifle, put as much lead downrange as fast as a pure fighting rifle, or be as light as a pack rifle, but was designed to do almost everything relatively well and be a light, and compact weapon that could go almost anywhere.


“It’s most outstanding characteristic is handiness. It is light, compact, and user friendly… It is easy to carry, convenient to pack into a boat, car, or airplane, powerful enough for any targets shot of pachyderms, and easily provisioned throughout the world. It is ideally adapted to the snap shot, and is quite able to group well into the vital zone of a 200-pound target out to around 400 paces… under field conditions.”

—The Scout Rifle: Some Simple Principles – Guns & Ammo – July 1988.

Over a period of years, Cooper refined the concept down into a set of fairly rigid criteria; those rifles that fit the criteria were scout rifles, and those that were outside the parameters were dubbed “pseudo-scouts.”

The criteria for a scout rifle includes specifications for the rifle, sights, optics, slings, an accessories

The rifle
1.1 meter or less in length
2.Chambered in .308 Winchester (or at least uses the .308 as a parent case)
3.short-action
4.18-20 inch barrel
5.good trigger
6.light weight (ideal was 3 kilos or 6.6 pounds with sights, scope, and sling; max was 7.5 pounds with sights, scope, and sling)

The sights
1.low-mounted, long eye relief optics with low magnification, mounted forward of the action
2.ghost-ring rear sight, and a post front sight

The sling
1.CW or Ching sling
2.flush-mounted sling swivel sockets (no protruding hardware)

Accessories
1.Butt magazine or cuff for ammo storage
2.collapsible or vanishing bipod
3.magazine cut-off
4.Stripper clip compatibility

For a long while, the only way to get a scout rifle was to send your short-action .308 rifle to a competent gunsmith to be reworked to Scout criteria, which could easily lead to a very expensive firearm.

Fortunately for us today in the middle of the scout rifle’s resurgence, we have a number of factory-made scouts to choose from.

Steyr Scout

Introduced in 1998, the Steyr Scout is the “grandaddy” of all factory scout rifles, and the only scout personally approved of by Col. Cooper in his lifetime. Owning a Steyr Scout was originally a very expensive prospect. As time has passed, however Steyr has not only refused to raise the price of their Scout, but has recently been able to drop the price of the rifle to a MSRP of $1,499 as interest in the platform has surged.

scout-mud_1

The Steyr Scout is popular and versatile enough that it became the basis of a precision rifle, the Steyr Elite .308.

Ruger Gunsite Scout

Perhaps nothing is more directly responsible for the recent resurgence of the scout rifle concept as the Ruger Gunsite Scout, which was developed in close partnership with Gunsite Academy. Introduced in 2012, with blued and stainless versions for both right and left handed shooters, it it a sub-$1,000 price point that is attractive to a lot of shooters. 6822

Mossberg MVP Scout

Mossberg jumped into the expanding scout rifle market last year with the MVP Scout, a variant cleverly designed to use magazines from both the M1A and SR-25/AR-10 family of rifles. The MSRP on this newest scout is listed at a MSRP of $738, and can be found for significantly less, assuring that it will be once of the top-selling scouts for years to come.

mossberg mvp scout

Honorable Mention: Savage Model 11 Scout

The Savage 11 Scout has a MSRP of $818 and may convert lot of fans of the AccuTrigger, but its too-beefy design is both a little too long and too heavy to be a true scout.

scout

Honorable Mention: Springfield Armory Squad Scout

Springfield Armory makes a trio of short-barreled M1A variants designed for forward-mounted scopes including the Squad Scout, but weighing in a hefy-8.8 pounds empty, they don’t come close to meeting the core concept of being light and easy to carry.

springfield scout

* **

I was fortunate to be one of a hand-selected group of attendees for the second-ever Scout Rifle Conference at Gunsite Academy last week, where an influential group of scout rifle experts, shooters, media, and and manufacturers got together to train on the platform, have a friend;y competition, and then hold a roundtable to help manufacturers further refine their designs.

scout rifle sticker

I’d not fired a scout rifle under field conditions prior the the Scout Rifle Conference, but by the end of the week, I’m sold on the concept of the scout rifle as one of the most mature and thoroughly refined concepts I’ve encountered.

We’ll be talking more about the Scout Rifle Conference in the days ahead.

[secondstoryguy]

Damn Steve, that CZ/Winny hybrid is going to motivate me to build another rifle. I've long thought of ditching backup irons and just carrying a pre-zeroed T2 or RMR in my pocket with a QD base to act as a back up sight/brush sight instead of irons.

One of my ideas is to have a barrel profile like your FN bottom metal rifle but have the barrel maker add a flare(kinda like a a counterweight flare on a palma or target rifle). This would solve the problem of mounting a suppressor or muzzle device on a light contour barrel. Another thought was to cut the threads on it to match an Accuracy International back up iron front sight(these sights screw on to the factory threads of AI rifles) and this would give you a rock-solid mil-spec front sight to play with.

Another thing I would like is a lightweight folding stock for a Winny. I've thrown a lot of pennys in the wishing well for this but nothing has emerged. Eberlestock was going to release his stock for a W70 but when production came around it was for a Rem 700 only. The solution to the stock problem would be to buy one of the new Mausingfield actions but damn they are expensive.

[GJM]

Jim Brockman is now making a lightweight, controlled feed bolt, with a folding stock, based on a Kimber action. Will see if I can get a picture.

[rob_s]

I think there are several threads around here pertaining to the "practical rifle" which, to my mind, has replaced the concept of the Scout.

To be considered a "Scout Rifle", beyond the litany of criteria collected by the Cooper-nistas as published in various places, it has to have the forward-mounted scope. Which, also IMO, is anachronistic and shows a lack of historical knowledge on the part of the buyer. You have to understand the state of the optics market then vs. now. At that time, the forward-mounted scope was the only real option to balance up-close speed with magnification at distance. Now we have more 1.x-Y optic choices than we can count, and so the forward-mounted scope becomes a less-good option.

I also, personally, think that in today's market and outside of various niches, the gun should cost no more than $1k, and the optic no more than $500. Anything more than that and you have to start asking yourself what the advantage of said snowflake gun might be (especially in the alternate calibers mentioned) over a standard AR.

[rob_s]

This looks mildly interesting if it (a) wasn't a mossberg and (b) was controlled-feed instead of push and (c) that top rail is removable for normal-people mounts
http://www.mossberg.com/product/mvp-scout-rifle-27778/

[GJM]

This looks mildly interesting if it (a) wasn't a mossberg and (b) was controlled-feed instead of push and (c) that top rail is removable for normal-people mounts
http://www.mossberg.com/product/mvp-scout-rifle-27778/

I hear they are accurate.

[secondstoryguy]

Jim Brockman is now making a lightweight, controlled feed bolt, with a folding stock, based on a Kimber action. Will see if I can get a picture.

Don't you dare show me a picture. I'm buying a new house in a month and my significant other would skin me alive if I even thought about buying any toys.

Rob: I agree about the forward mounted scope, it's no longer relevant with modern optics and reliable magazine ready bottom metal. I still use the term "scout" but your probably right that what we are talking about is more aptly termed "practical bolt guns". IMHO a practical rifle has all the specs of Coopers scout rifle save the optic and its mounting position.

[Lester Polfus]

I certainly agree about the forward mounted optic. I think it was an idea that made total sense at the time, that has now been eclipsed by modern advances.

How do we feel about back up irons on the practical rifle? I've got them on mine, but I really question the need. I've been using the same rifle and Leupold scope since 2002 and despite bouncing in a rack over hundreds of miles of bad roads and literally tumbling down the mountain with me on a couple of occasions, I've never lost zero much less had it break.

[spinmove_]

This looks mildly interesting if it (a) wasn't a mossberg and (b) was controlled-feed instead of push and (c) that top rail is removable for normal-people mounts
http://www.mossberg.com/product/mvp-scout-rifle-27778/

Stupid bolt-action newbie here, so please bear with me, but...

a.) What's wrong with Mossberg?
b.) Why is that a desirable thing (controlled-feed, that is)?
c.) Are we sure the top rail isn't removable? If it was, sure you would lose the rear ghost ring, but there's gotta be an after-market solution you could mount in it's place, right?

[secondstoryguy]

I've had a couple of scopes break (one was an older S&B that fogged out inside during sub zero temps) although I admit that it rarely if ever happens. I still like to use irons during inclement weather and as a close range option in certain circumstances. I've been playing with the idea of ditching them on my next build in favor of a pocket carried RDS.

[rob_s]

Stupid bolt-action newbie here, so please bear with me, but...

a.) What's wrong with Mossberg?
b.) Why is that a desirable thing (controlled-feed, that is)?
c.) Are we sure the top rail isn't removable? If it was, sure you would lose the rear ghost ring, but there's gotta be an after-market solution you could mount in it's place, right?


(A) never was very confidence-instilling to me. Nothing "wrong", but seems below even Savage in my mind.
(B) controlled-feed is... controlled. push feed is relying on gravity, luck, chance, and a steady gun.
(C) I'm not sure it isn't. Good point re: the ghost ring.



How do we feel about back up irons on the practical rifle? I've got them on mine, but I really question the need. I've been using the same rifle and Leupold scope since 2002 and despite bouncing in a rack over hundreds of miles of bad roads and literally tumbling down the mountain with me on a couple of occasions, I've never lost zero much less had it break.

I want irons on a bolt gun. Not critical, but I could imagine pulling the scope off and using irons, or just using the irons for a time before choosing a scope.

[Jared]

I actually just impulse bought a Ruger American Ranch in 223 the other day. I did it because it was a good compact size and relatively inexpensive. Coupled with the fact that I already had a scope and rings laying around, and adding in the low price and I said why not.

I haven't got everything put together and that's probably gonna be a project for when the weather gets cooler anyway, but for what I intend to do with it (some target shooting and perhaps some varmint/coyote control) I think it'll be almost ideal.

In truth, it reminds me of the Remington Mohawk 600 in 222 (not a typo, that rifle was a triple deuce) that I had almost ten years ago that I foolishly over-scoped (a 4.5-14 was great for the bench, but lousy for a light handy field rifle) and sadly let go.

[SMD]

Stupid bolt-action newbie here, so please bear with me, but...


b.) Why is that a desirable thing (controlled-feed, that is)?


Wayne van Zwoll does a decent job of summarizing:

The bottom rim of the 98 Mauser's bolt face is milled flush with the center of the face so the case head can ride up in to the extractor claw. This permits controlled round feed. Important to infantrymen, early snaring of the case head precluded double loading - the inadvertent stripping of another round from the magazine after the bolt had run one into the chamber. This would, naturally, cause a jam. Controlling feed from the initial travel of the bolt forward also prevents spilling the cartridge if you cycle the action with the rifle tipped steeply to the side.

Gun Digest Shooter's Guide to Rifles
Wayne van Zwoll
2012 F+W Media

The only problem is that many rifles with CRF features, i.e. a Mauser-style claw extractor, are still not timed correctly or exhibit a flaw in the magazine or feed lip geometry and aren't CRF in practice. My own sample size includes 2 CZ 550s, a pre-64 Model 70, a BACO Model 70, a handful of Ruger MKII/Hawkeyes, and one Swedish Mauser. Of the bunch, only the 96 Swede exhibited true controlled round feeding as Herr Mauser intended.

I'm coming to think CRF is an overrated and misunderstood virtue. But, regardless of the feed cycle, Mauser-style extractors still do a wonderful job of removing fired cases from the chamber. Perhaps more importantly, many of the CRF designs also have a standing ejector which jettison spent cases with authority.

[GJM]

I spoke to Jim Brockman this morning. Of all we discussed, his favorites are:

1) in the micro Scout category, the CZ .223. Prefers the .223 to 7.62x39, as it shoots .223 and 5.56, where there is an issue with the 7.62x39 being set up for CIP .311 ammo instead of SAAMI .308, which is most of the premium loads. With the youth model, add perhaps an Aimpoint and simple sling and done.

2) in .308, he likes the Tikka CTR. He thought you might take as much as .75 pound off by cutting the heavier profile 20 inch barrel back to 16 inches, and fluting. Thinks the Tikka is top of the heap at the $1,000 and less price point. Looking forward to a version of the Canadian Ranger Sako CTR coming.

3) I also confirmed he is still taking in even smaller jobs (with reasonable turn around) on doing partial custom packages, like on the CTR or equivalent.

[secondstoryguy]

Controlled feed guns pick the round up and control it from the time it releases from the magazine till the time it ejects from the rifle which makes them less position sensitive that a push feed(the round doesn't just flop around in the receiver while being chambered) and also prevents double feeds. The extractor on CF rifles also grip a big percentage of the rim of cartridge helping extract dirty/stuck cases from the chamber.

The safety is also one of the reasons I like the Win 70 action for fieldwork. On safe it locks the bolt down and this is huge when moving through the brush and carrying the rifle slung(I once drew down on a large elk with a non-locking bolt rifle only to find the receiver open and full of snow). Also the ability to put the safety in the middle "unload" position allows me to keep the weapon on safe to clear it which is something other rifles cannot do.

Some will say that all the military uses pushfeeds in combat on their sniper rifles. I say that's a much different application than a hunting or practical rifle as precision rifles are almost always fired from a static position and not offhand. If you look back in history almost all popular bolt action battle rifles were controlled feed.

[Xrslug]

If 50-state legality and perhaps a "lower profile" are the primary issues pushing the AR platform out of contention then I think this platform deserves a look:
http://www.aresdefense.com/?page_id=729
Available as a lower only and laminate stocks and forearms are available as well so it looks even more like a "traditional" rifle. Fits any AR upper, including alternate calibers. I've just started looking into this given CA's newly passed "assault weapon" laws. Reviews seem favorable. New version has a much improved trigger. Bolt hold open is available. Iron sights are available. Etc. Seems like it could be a viable option -- I've seen them set up with 24" accurized uppers and as SBR's.

[alohadoug]

If 50-state legality and perhaps a "lower profile" are the primary issues pushing the AR platform out of contention then I think this platform deserves a look:
http://www.aresdefense.com/?page_id=729
I hate to say it, but it's only 49 state legal. The crap the Mass AG pulled last week affects that one too. She's using "operating system" as the criteria.
/thread drift.

Now I'm looking at bolt vs level for my next rifle.

[Xrslug]

I hate to say it, but it's only 49 state legal. The crap the Mass AG pulled last week affects that one too. She's using "operating system" as the criteria.
/thread drift.

Now I'm looking at bolt vs level for my next rifle.

Hah, MA has one-upped even CA. Not for long, I'm sure. We the aggrieved in the ban states. Back to the Scout discussion...

[spinmove_]

(A) never was very confidence-instilling to me. Nothing "wrong", but seems below even Savage in my mind.
(B) controlled-feed is... controlled. push feed is relying on gravity, luck, chance, and a steady gun.
(C) I'm not sure it isn't. Good point re: the ghost ring.



I want irons on a bolt gun. Not critical, but I could imagine pulling the scope off and using irons, or just using the irons for a time before choosing a scope.

Fair enough, and that makes sense.

What about the Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle?

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/products/gunsiteScoutRifle/specSheets/6821.html

I know the pic rail is milled into the barrel, which would mount the optic a bit more forward than one would like, but would you not still be able to mount a long eye-relief LPV (1-4x or 1-6x) on it far to the rear and run with that?

Edit: It appears that 10-rd poly mags are fairly affordable and easily attained as well, for those logistically inclined.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1366829505/ruger-magazine-ruger-gunsite-scout-308-winchester-polymer-black
http://www.brownells.com/magazines/rifle-magazines/magazines/scout-308-7-62-magazines-prod45269.aspx

[secondstoryguy]

I actually like the Ruger Scout rifle for what it is and the price. I've owned one and it shot/handled well and was reliable. The only reason I sold it was it was redundant with other stuff I have.

One of the guys at my department is trying to push a patrol precision rifle program utilizing a Ruger Scout rifle with a conventionally mounted scope as a counter-sniper tool(I believe Rem 700 LTRs are also being discussed). The idea being that you equip one or two guys from each shift with one as an answer to a Charles Whitman type active shooter. I know the idea has holes but it would be something we have on scene and don't have to wait for when getting shot at.

[luckyman]

...
In truth, it reminds me of the Remington Mohawk 600 in 222 (not a typo, that rifle was a triple deuce) that I had almost ten years ago that I foolishly over-scoped (a 4.5-14 was great for the bench, but lousy for a light handy field rifle) and sadly let go.

Ahh, I've got a sentimental attachment to 222. That's the caliber my dad had when he first started taking me along groundhog hunting around 1967. 223 was a thing then, but just barely, and I suspect my dad had that rifle since the late '50s. The rifle was a Remington with a 10x fixed power scope (Weaver IIRC) and no iron sights. Used to go get permission from farmers and hunt in their fields. Having a groundhog pop up 15 yards away with that 10x scope was a pain.

[SMD]

I know the pic rail is milled into the barrel

I had an early Ruger GSR and at least on my sample, the rail was attached via screws. A quick scan of Google images makes me think this is still the case.

In general, the Ruger Scout thing was just too heavy. I'd have to check a spreadsheet, but from memory, mine went north of 9 pounds all up with Ching sling and Leupold 2.5x IER scope. It was too heavy and clubby for my tastes. I tried the new polymer version and its balance and weight were much more manageable.

[Jared]

Ahh, I've got a sentimental attachment to 222. That's the caliber my dad had when he first started taking me along groundhog hunting around 1967. 223 was a thing then, but just barely, and I suspect my dad had that rifle since the late '50s. The rifle was a Remington with a 10x fixed power scope (Weaver IIRC) and no iron sights. Used to go get permission from farmers and hunt in their fields. Having a groundhog pop up 15 yards away with that 10x scope was a pain.

I'd say your fathers rifle was a 722 if it was late 50's vintage.

I missed the grand days of groundhog hunting in my area due to not being born yet/too young, but my father regaled me with stories, and he LOVED the deuce. When I had the Mohawk 600, I had multiple 222's, but the one I absolutely coveted was the 700 BDL Varmint. I searched and searched and searched. Eventually, I got bored with benchrest shooting, there's no groundhogs left, there never were prairie dogs around here, and I got out of the bolt gun game almost entirely. A couple years after letting that stuff go, one of the local dealers called, he had a 700 BDL varmint, in 222. I first told him I was over it. Then I said I'd come look at it, just because I'd searched so long and hard for one and owed it to myself to at least fondle it. Then I bought the thing. I still haven't scoped it, but it's here, just in case the interest reignites.

I've still got enough 222 brass to last me three lifetimes, still got my old dies, 50 grain projectiles are plentiful, heck I've even got a spare scope here just for that rifle. Someday it'll get to come out and play

[Lon]

One of the guys at my department is trying to push a patrol precision rifle program utilizing a Ruger Scout rifle with a conventionally mounted scope as a counter-sniper tool(I believe Rem 700 LTRs are also being discussed). The idea being that you equip one or two guys from each shift with one as an answer to a Charles Whitman type active shooter. I know the idea has holes but it would be something we have on scene and don't have to wait for when getting shot at.

I think you'd be better served by getting a DMR rifle program set up.

[okie john]

Stupid bolt-action newbie here, so please bear with me, but...

a.) What's wrong with Mossberg?
b.) Why is that a desirable thing (controlled-feed, that is)?
c.) Are we sure the top rail isn't removable? If it was, sure you would lose the rear ghost ring, but there's gotta be an after-market solution you could mount in it's place, right?

a) Mossberg's shotgun game is strong, but they've dropped some turds into the punchbowl over the years. This rifle may be an exception, but they have a reputation to defeat.
b) I was kind of a CRF fundamentalist until I realized that the various M-16 variants that I had trusted on active duty didn't have it. Hmmm. Now I'm OK without it. The more tangible benefits of most CRF systems are a massive extractor that's very difficult to damage or break but easy to clean and/or replace, and a fixed ejector.
c) The rail probably is removable, but having it solves several problems simultaneously. For one thing, you can put a scope in almost any position and get the eye relief right. With a relatively long action like a Model 70 or 700, you're limited to where you can put a scope with a short tube and eye relief can be restricted. Most scopes today seem to be compacts of some kind, so that's a big problem unless you want to go with extended rings, most of which are ugly as homemade soap and all of which occlude the ejection port to some extent. Second, it has always been extremely difficult to get a peep sight and a scope on the same rifle at the same time. Removing the rail, which has a ghost ring AND allows great flexibility in scope placement, may be a step forward in terms of appearance, but it's a giant step backwards in terms of function.


Okie John

[DamonL]

2) in .308, he likes the Tikka CTR. He thought you might take as much as .75 pound off by cutting the heavier profile 20 inch barrel back to 16 inches, and fluting. Thinks the Tikka is top of the heap at the $1,000 and less price point. Looking forward to a version of the Canadian Ranger Sako CTR coming.



What about rebarreling to a sporter contour barrel?

[secondstoryguy]

I think you'd be better served by getting a DMR rifle program set up.

That's exactly what I recommended. A 1-6 red dot capable variable(Vortex 1-6?) on a 16" AR with a Geissele trigger. More versatile and almost anyone could grab it and deploy it in a pinch.

[GJM]

I had an early Ruger GSR and at least on my sample, the rail was attached via screws. A quick scan of Google images makes me think this is still the case.

In general, the Ruger Scout thing was just too heavy. I'd have to check a spreadsheet, but from memory, mine went north of 9 pounds all up with Ching sling and Leupold 2.5x IER scope. It was too heavy and clubby for my tastes. I tried the new polymer version and its balance and weight were much more manageable.

I think the synthetic stock Ruger would be the way to go, as it is listed at 6.2 pounds. The Ruger problems needs some polishing of the action for decent bolt manipulation. Seems the jury is still out on their magazines?

[MD7305]

I've actually been saving up for a Ruger GSR as my jack of all trades, master of none rifle. I'm after the 16" synthetic model, I think it's model number 6830. The short, synthetic model is lighter than the laminated wood stock models. Of the "OEM" .308 scouts (Mossberg, Savage, Ruger) available I like the Ruger overall and particularly for magazine availability/compatability. Where it uses an AI pattern mag it can use Magpuls new precision rifle mags so you have the option of running Ruger mags, AI mags, and Magpul mags, of various capacities. I also like that XS has some aftermarket rails and sights available for it as well. I know some of you guys are probably already familiar with it but I've learned quite a bit lurking at http://scoutrifle.org.

I haven't bought anything yet as I'm still studying but the CZ 527 is also of interest to me as well as the Ruger American Ranch, I just would prefer iron sights being available. In reference to Mossberg I read an interesting article about a Patriot series rifle that Dove's Custom turned into a scout-ish rifle.
http://empty-cases.com/blog/the-patriot-scout-sneak-peek/
http://empty-cases.com/blog/dove-customs-mossberg-patriot-scout-first-shots/

[SMD]

What about rebarreling to a sporter contour barrel?

Come to think of it, why not start with the T3 sporter (now the T3x) instead? You could add a McMillan stock and AICS-compatible bottom metal and have most of the CTR's features with less weight.

[Lester Polfus]

There is quite a bit of discussion about the Ruger Scout, and practical rifles in general, on the Hill People Gear forums.

[spinmove_]

I had an early Ruger GSR and at least on my sample, the rail was attached via screws. A quick scan of Google images makes me think this is still the case.

In general, the Ruger Scout thing was just too heavy. I'd have to check a spreadsheet, but from memory, mine went north of 9 pounds all up with Ching sling and Leupold 2.5x IER scope. It was too heavy and clubby for my tastes. I tried the new polymer version and its balance and weight were much more manageable.

The rifle itself out of the box is 7.3 lbs. A ching sling, QD mount, and LPV scope don't weigh that much, do they?

Galco Ching Sling: 6.5 oz.
Bobro 30mm QD scope mount: 9.5 oz.
Trijicon AccuPower 1-4x Duplex: 16.2 oz.
Total: 32.2 oz.

Ok, so yeah, I guess it would be that heavy. So in order to really be any lighter, you'd have to run with a super light polymer stock and/or go with a micro red dot.

[Malamute]

The rifle itself out of the box is 7.3 lbs. A ching sling, QD mount, and LPV scope don't weigh that much, do they?

Galco Ching Sling: 6.5 oz.
Bobro 30mm QD scope mount: 9.5 oz.
Trijicon AccuPower 1-4x Duplex: 16.2 oz.
Total: 32.2 oz.

Ok, so yeah, I guess it would be that heavy. So in order to really be any lighter, you'd have to run with a super light polymer stock and/or go with a micro red dot.

The Leupold 1-4x VXII weighs 8.1 oz. Is the Trijicon or a red dot that much better that the weight is or switch to red dot is worthwhile?

Lighter mounts may be available also. Dont know.

I also am curious how much difference controlled feed actually makes in a bolt action. It isnt a feature of any self loaders we think of as reliable. The cartridge flopping round in the action isnt an issue with any bolt action Ive used, especially if its actually being run, not goofed around with in ultra slow motion. The double feed is an operator error issue isnt it? Not fully closing the bolt, then trying to chamber another round? I dont recall a bolt action actually trying to feed two rounds at once. The ejector in the bolt face seems to work OK on self loaders. It seems hard to believe anyone is operating a bolt action faster than a full auto M4 or similar to cause an ejection failure because the ejector couldnt get the empty out fast enough. Real questions. My perceptions may be incorrect.

Did someone mention US Mil sniper rifles being CRF? I thought they used Rem 700s for some time.

[SMD]

The rifle itself out of the box is 7.3 lbs. A ching sling, QD mount, and LPV scope don't weigh that much, do they?

Galco Ching Sling: 6.5 oz.
Bobro 30mm QD scope mount: 9.5 oz.
Trijicon AccuPower 1-4x Duplex: 16.2 oz.
Total: 32.2 oz.

Ok, so yeah, I guess it would be that heavy. So in order to really be any lighter, you'd have to run with a super light polymer stock and/or go with a micro red dot.

Took a few minutes to check my notes:

Ruger GSR SKU 6803: 7 lb 0 oz
Wilderness Tactical Sling: 4.7 oz
Leupold QRW rings SKU 49853: 5.0 oz
Leupold scope SKU 58810: 7.5 oz
Ruger 10 round steel mag: 8.5 oz


My earlier recollection was wrong. My long-gone Ruger Scout weighed closer to 8 lb 10 oz empty. Add ten rounds of .308 and the total weight was way north of Cooper's prescribed 3 kg weight limit. Even more damning, though, the rifle was an unbalanced mess. My pre-64 Model 70 is a hair heavier yet still feels livelier in the hands because of its balance.

[DamonL]

Come to think of it, why not start with the T3 sporter (now the T3x) instead? You could add a McMillan stock and AICS-compatible bottom metal and have most of the CTR's features with less weight.

Using Google, it looks like you don't need to replace the stock on a T3, just the bottom metal.

https://tikkaperformance.com/index.php?_route_=tikka-aics-dbm

[okie john]

I have two beefs with the Ruger Scout.

The first is the short barrel: the 308 is loud as hell in an 18" barrel. A 16" barrel is even worse. For a few shots, no problem. For sustained practice, big problem. The second is the balance. It's much too far to the rear, which makes the muzzle tend to float on fast shots.

I like the 20" barrel on the Sako Canadian Ranger rifle. Balance, of course, cannot be be determined without the rifle in hand. I'm also unconvinced that a DBM is necessary, or even a good idea. The infantryman in me sees it as one more thing to lose. It's too bad that we can't just call Sako, point out the parts we want, and have them cobble up our dream rifles.

Is anyone considering the Remington Model 7? I had one for a while, and aside from the short barrel, it was pretty sweet.


Okie John

[Dave Williams]

Is the Sako Ranger rifle available?

[okie john]

Is the Sako Ranger rifle available?

Not yet.


Okie John

[GJM]

This thread just got real (expensive).

I just hung up with Jim Brockman. He is taking a pre 64 model 70 out of my stash for future projects, and doing the following:

pre-64 model 70 action, five down rounds

.30-06, barrel cut to 18 inches and threaded

Brockman protected aperture rear and protected front sight

rail on front scope bridge for an Aimpoint T2

legacy wood stock, bedded, cut to 13.0 LOP, three studs to accommodate a Ching sling, Limbsaver pad

bit of Weaver rail on side of stock for a light

trigger job

And the best part, is he says two weeks.

[spinmove_]

This thread just got real (expensive).

I just hung up with Jim Brockman. He is taking a pre 64 model 70 out of my stash for future projects, and doing the following:

pre-64 model 70 action, five down rounds

.30-06, barrel cut to 18 inches and threaded

Brockman protected aperture rear and protected front sight

rail on front scope bridge for an Aimpoint T2

legacy wood stock, bedded, cut to 13.0 LOP, three studs to accommodate a Ching sling, Limbsaver pad

bit of Weaver rail on side of stock for a light

trigger job

And the best part, is he says two weeks.

I don't even wanna know how much that's going to cost. Or maybe I do, so that it'll scare me out of doing something similar.

[GJM]

I don't even wanna know how much that's going to cost. Or maybe I do, so that it'll scare me out of doing something similar.

I am telling myself it is very economical, as I already have the pre-64 model 70. :)

[Shotgun]

CZ 527 in 7.62x39 with a 30mm Aimpoint over the action. Inexpensive ammo, accurate gun, lightweight, tiny magazines, and an action that is slick as snot.

Ruger American, threaded, 16 inch bolt action in .300 BLK. $400, supposedly moa accurate, neat five round magazines. Either a red dot or fixed 2.5 power Leupold as glass.

Tikka CTR in 6.5 or .308, cut down to 16.25 inches to save weight, ten round magazines, great reputation for accuracy, and a yet to be determined optic.

What do you think?


.308 or bust.

I've not handled any of the three rifles being considered so cannot comment about those. However, I will comment about the caliber. I seem to recall that the OP is from Alaska, and he may travel around his state hunting. I know in rural west Texas that ammo choices in the local stores are often very limited. Alaska may be the same. .308 is usually readily found, even in out of the way backwaters - or backtrundas as the case may be.

[GJM]

I've not handled any of the three rifles being considered so cannot comment about those. However, I will comment about the caliber. I seem to recall that the OP is from Alaska, and he may travel around his state hunting. I know in rural west Texas that ammo choices in the local stores are often very limited. Alaska may be the same. .308 is usually readily found, even in out of the way backwaters - or backtrundas as the case may be.

Up here, I most frequently see rifle ammo in .338 and. 300WM, followed by .375 H&H, .30-06, and .45-70. Most of the time, if I don't have ammo on me, it isn't available, as we are 100 miles from town.

[nycnoob]

I just hung up with Jim Brockman. He is taking a pre 64 model 70 out of my stash for future projects, and doing the following:



Do I understand this correctly? You keep a stash of guns with your gunsmith so that when you get an idea for a project he can just begin once you tell him what you want?

How many guns of yours does he currently have?

[ReverendMeat]

To be considered a "Scout Rifle", beyond the litany of criteria collected by the Cooper-nistas as published in various places, it has to have the forward-mounted scope. Which, also IMO, is anachronistic and shows a lack of historical knowledge on the part of the buyer. You have to understand the state of the optics market then vs. now. At that time, the forward-mounted scope was the only real option to balance up-close speed with magnification at distance. Now we have more 1.x-Y optic choices than we can count, and so the forward-mounted scope becomes a less-good option.

I thought the primary reasoning behind the forward-mounted scope was to make enough room to enable the usage of stripper clips, but became the defining trait of the "Scout" concept because of aesthetics.

[DamonL]

This thread just got real (expensive).

This gave me a good laugh. Our job is done here. The practical me says, doesn't he have a custom scout already? The gun nut me says, is the threading for a suppressor or a brake? Sounds like a nice project!

[GJM]

Do I understand this correctly? You keep a stash of guns with your gunsmith so that when you get an idea for a project he can just begin once you tell him what you want?

How many guns of yours does he currently have?

Yes and not saying.


I thought the primary reasoning behind the forward-mounted scope was to make enough room to enable the usage of stripper clips, but became the defining trait of the "Scout" concept because of aesthetics.

Either to use stripper clips or keep the action clear for faster conventional reloading. Also, on a heavy recoiling rifle, keep the scope away from your face.

[Lon]

Do I understand this correctly? You keep a stash of guns with your gunsmith so that when you get an idea for a project he can just begin once you tell him what you want?

How many guns of yours does he currently have?

GJM is almost as near hated out of jealousy around here as Nyeti is. We need a green with envy emoticon that looks pissed off.

[rob_s]

b) I was kind of a CRF fundamentalist until I realized that the various M-16 variants that I had trusted on active duty didn't have it. Hmmm. Now I'm OK without it. The more tangible benefits of most CRF systems are a massive extractor that's very difficult to damage or break but easy to clean and/or replace, and a fixed ejector.


that is not a 1:1, but if makes you feel better about one thing vs. another then rock on. What you're missing in the bolt speed.

FWIW, I've never seen a round just fall out of an AR/M16, but I've seen plenty get jostled enough in push-feed bolt guns to resist feeding or even refuse to feed.

[rob_s]

I thought the primary reasoning behind the forward-mounted scope was to make enough room to enable the usage of stripper clips, but became the defining trait of the "Scout" concept because of aesthetics.

the stripper clip usage thing is one of the "traits" of the original Scout, but I frankly think it was an afterthought that was sort of realized after they cleared the port by moving the scope forward.

Hey, we need to get a forward-mounted scope to make this thing shoot faster up close.
Hey, when we do that, we clear up the ejection port.
You know what would be cool? Now that the ejection port is clear, we can load from stripper clips!

Personally, the open ejection port (and by open, I mean the receiver not the location of the scope) has more to do with being able to top up with single rounds than anything else. I see some rifles billed as "scouts" these days with tiny little ejection ports, which I would not want. I want the nice open space of the M70.

Which, come to think of it, is another reason for the controlled round feeding. I suppose if you've got a tiny little port the push feed might not matter as much.

[okie john]

I thought the primary reasoning behind the forward-mounted scope was to make enough room to enable the usage of stripper clips, but became the defining trait of the "Scout" concept because of aesthetics.

It also frees up the bridge for a peep sight, lets you use a lever gun or a bolt-action that doesn't scope easily (like the SMLE or Krag), and lets you carry the rifle at the balance easily. In my experience, of the most important features of the forward-mounted scope is that it shifts the balance forward considerably, so a short-barreled rifle handles like a rifle with a longer barrel, which makes it easier to use quickly offhand.

I exchanged several letters with Cooper about Scout rifles over the years, and I'm pretty sure that aesthetics ever entered into his thinking.


Okie John

[okie john]

the stripper clip usage thing is one of the "traits" of the original Scout, but I frankly think it was an afterthought that was sort of realized after they cleared the port by moving the scope forward.

Hey, we need to get a forward-mounted scope to make this thing shoot faster up close.
Hey, when we do that, we clear up the ejection port.
You know what would be cool? Now that the ejection port is clear, we can load from stripper clips!

Personally, the open ejection port (and by open, I mean the receiver not the location of the scope) has more to do with being able to top up with single rounds than anything else. I see some rifles billed as "scouts" these days with tiny little ejection ports, which I would not want. I want the nice open space of the M70.

Which, come to think of it, is another reason for the controlled round feeding. I suppose if you've got a tiny little port the push feed might not matter as much.

Cooper grew up on the 1903 Springfield. He felt that the magazine cutoff, which lets you load single rounds without tapping into the magazine, was more important than the ability to use stripper clips, which were pretty much non-existent by the time the Scout came around.


Okie John

[nycnoob]

GJM is almost as near hated out of jealousy around here as Nyeti is. We need a green with envy emoticon that looks pissed off.

A few years ago GJM was selling of a ton of nice pistols.

I contacted him because I was sure he had fallen on hard times,
no, he was just cleaning out his safe to make room for new stuff.

I live in NYC and buying guns is difficult or I certainly would have scooped a few up!

[ReverendMeat]

I exchanged several letters with Cooper about Scout rifles over the years, and I'm pretty sure that aesthetics ever entered into his thinking.


I meant aesthetics as far as overall popularity of the concept, which took off in the form of what Cooper called "pseudo scouts." People would call anything with a forward mounted scope a "scout" even though they'd lack a host of other features of a "true scout."

[rob_s]

IMO, it's either a Scout or it's not. Meaning it either meets all of the criteria (or attempts to) or it doesn't. If not, it's not a Scout. Faithfully re-creating the original concept (which I don't think was ever exactly put down by Cooper all in one place) is kind of on the side of intentional anachronism (AKA "collecting") or hero-worship than anything else.

Whether that concept is applicable today, down to the nitty gritty, is debatable I suppose but for me it is not. What is applicable is the idea of a relatively light/short/low-cost, bolt-action .308 rifle with an optic selection that allows for greater speed at close range and a feeding/port setup that is secure and allows topping-off.

[okie john]

I meant aesthetics as far as overall popularity of the concept, which took off in the form of what Cooper called "pseudo scouts." People would call anything with a forward mounted scope a "scout" even though they'd lack a host of other features of a "true scout."

He was all about the purity of the concept. He originally meant the "psuedo-Scout" to be any good attempt that fell short, usually something using an '03 Springfield action, but it ultimately came to include stuff like a Mosin-Nagant M91 with a variable pistol scope in a B-Square mount and a laser.


Okie John

[okie john]

IMO, it's either a Scout or it's not. Meaning it either meets all of the criteria (or attempts to) or it doesn't. If not, it's not a Scout. Faithfully re-creating the original concept (which I don't think was ever exactly put down by Cooper all in one place) is kind of on the side of intentional anachronism (AKA "collecting") or hero-worship than anything else.

Whether that concept is applicable today, down to the nitty gritty, is debatable I suppose but for me it is not. What is applicable is the idea of a relatively light/short/low-cost, bolt-action .308 rifle with an optic selection that allows for greater speed at close range and a feeding/port setup that is secure and allows topping-off.

He stated the concept itself over and over, but he never provided a build sheet, as he thought that encouraged freedom of thought. His point was that a short, light bolt gun with good sights, a crisp trigger, and a shooting sling was all that anyone needed. It was a reaction to the semi-auto battle rifles of the day, which he thought encouraged people to value gear over skill.


Okie John

[Lon]

A few years ago GJM was selling of a ton of nice pistols.

I contacted him because I was sure he had fallen on hard times,
no, he was just cleaning out his safe to make room for new stuff.

I live in NYC and buying guns is difficult or I certainly would have scooped a few up!

I remember that. I bought one. A M&P 45 Compact.

[Shotgun]

Up here, I most frequently see rifle ammo in .338 and. 300WM, followed by .375 H&H, .30-06, and .45-70. Most of the time, if I don't have ammo on me, it isn't available, as we are 100 miles from town.

Calibers for the occasional brown bear. 30-06 then. Regarding the 100 miles, I'm very jealous. That far out ammo choice may not be a consideration. You have to stock up when you buy.

[drjaydvm]

Has anyone handled a Howa mini action in 6.5 Grendel? If I can find one I'm thinking about a Christmas present for my 10 year old.

[SteveB]

And the best part, is he says two weeks.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[nycnoob]

GJM,

You refuse to say how many guns Brockman has of yours, "just in case".
I am wondering, do you have your own safe at his place?

[Lon]

(it's just a joke, I have no knowledge of GJM's guns or salt.)

But you're probably right......

[GJM]

GJM,

You refuse to say how many guns Brockman has of yours, "just in case".
I am wondering, do you have your own safe at his place?

Safe, hell no -- I have my own room.


When he said not saying, I'm betting it was more along the lines of "can't say" -- not because he doesn't want to, but because he doesn't know.

You might as well have been asking him how many grains of salt are in his salt shaker.

(it's just a joke, I have no knowledge of GJM's guns or salt.)

It is true I lost track. At one point I had 40 something rifles there, but I am sure it not more than half that many now.

I just want to make sure I always have a few pre-64 actions there, in case something like this pops up. SLG actually had the idea for the short model 70 .30-06 a few years ago.

[secondstoryguy]

Are you handicapping the 30-06 at all with an 18-20" barrel?

[DamonL]

Are you handicapping the 30-06 at all with an 18-20" barrel?

I think it becomes a .308 Long Rifle cartridge. :)

[GJM]

Are you handicapping the 30-06 at all with an 18-20" barrel?

Perhaps, but this is more a walking around, general purpose rifle, where I value a smaller package. I do think my sighting choice is more of a compromise, and Jim Brockman and I decided to put Talley bases on, so I can run either a LPV or 30mm Aimpoint. This will necessitate a switch to open sights on the barrel.

[Lost River]

Probably not a 20" barrel.

In fact I have a nice old J.C. Higgins Model 50 30-06, which is a 1950s FN Belgian Mauser, with a slim 22" tube on it. It would make a fair donor for what GJM is discussing building at Brockman's (which is about 30 minutes away).

I have been wondering what to do with that gun for a while now, as I am trying to consolidate, and I am strongly considering divesting myself of my 30-06s and just run 308s and 300WMs exclusively for BG.

[John Hearne]

He originally meant the "psuedo-Scout" to be any good attempt that fell short, usually something using an '03 Springfield action, but it ultimately came to include stuff like a Mosin-Nagant M91 with a variable pistol scope in a B-Square mount and a laser.


I seem to recall that the most common "failure" in the concept was not making weight. I always thought that by setting a very low floor, Cooper hoped to force some innovation that never really materialized. There are also those who said the weight limit was there to keep semi-autos out of the class.

[GJM]

I seem to recall that the most common "failure" in the concept was not making weight. I always thought that by setting a very low floor, Cooper hoped to force some innovation that never really materialized. There are also those who said the weight limit was there to keep semi-autos out of the class.

The dirty secret of API 270, was a decent guy with an M1A or FN would invariably win the shoot off, even against better shooters with a bolt action scout rifle.

[Inkwell 41]

I found this video a couple years ago.


https://youtu.be/daTz5iZnC_E

A featherweight, in .308, with an 18" barrel, and one of Brockmans pop up peep sight/ Talley base, would make a nice practical rifle.

[okie john]

I seem to recall that the most common "failure" in the concept was not making weight. I always thought that by setting a very low floor, Cooper hoped to force some innovation that never really materialized. There are also those who said the weight limit was there to keep semi-autos out of the class.

Yes. He beefed a lot about overweight Scouts.

I also agree that he wrote the rules to drive innovation—he certainly wasn’t shy about tipping the playing field to enforce his ideas in other areas. Several times he wrote that any semi-auto could be considered, but that none of them made weight, so you may be right on that account.

He also liked concise language, such as saying that a Scout should be one meter long and weigh three kilograms. The idea was to force shooters to study shorter, lighter rifles, and that only worked if he enforced the rule, so why not have a rule that’s kind of snappy?

I think that some of the innovations did materialize and that others still materialize. He would have loved the Kimber Montana and the Remington Model Seven. He might have groused about the Picatinny rail’s inelegant appearance, but would have been delighted that it frees us from the tyranny of custom bases and expensive pedestal barrels.

Some of these elements, such as the red-dot sight, are still coming into alignment. Unfortunately, it may take a hostile White House to create the conditions under which the Scout and its descendants can really flourish.


Okie John

[okie john]

If anyone is interested in reading original material about the Scout, here are the references that I've used for some time now:

Aagaard, Finn, "The Scout Rifle Concept: Does It Work?", Guns & Ammo, March, 1996
Aagaard, Finn, "My Rifle", Rifle & Shotgun Annual, Los Angeles: Peterson Publishing, 1996
Clifton, Brent, Clifton Arms Catalog, Medina, TX, n.d.
Cooper, Jeff, To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth, Paulden, AZ, Gunsite Press, 1990
Cooper, Jeff, "The Scout Rifle", Guns & Ammo, April 1987
Cooper, Jeff, "Cooper's Scout Rifle: A Gun for All Reasons", Guns & Ammo, July 1994
Cooper, Jeff, The Art of The Rifle, Boulder, CO, Paladin Press, 1997
Cooper, Jeff, "The Scout Rifle: Some Simple Principles", Guns & Ammo, July 1998


To get a good idea of the general development of the all-purpose rifle, take a look at

Sharpe, Philip B., The Rifle in America, New York: William Morrow & Company, 1938
Truesdell, S.R., The Rifle: Its Development for Big Game Hunting, Long Beach, CA Safari, 1992


There are also dozens of references scattered throughout "Cooper's Commentaries", which you can find online. I read most of this stuff as it was published, so I got to appreciate it and understand it over time. I also exchanged letters with Cooper and Aagaard about it, and built a pseudo Scout that I used for several years. I think that the Scout was well ahead of its time, but that we've moved past it, which is much of what Cooper really hoped that we'd do--despite a certain amount of clinging, he was really more interested in advancing the art of shooting and the understanding of it than anything else.


Okie John

[GJM]

One of my all time shooting highlights, was breaking two consecutive clay pigeons launched from a skeet thrower, using Finn Aagard's Mauser .30-06 with a Leupold 1.75-6, at a Cooper reunion at the Whitington Center in Raton. Wished I stopped at two, as I missed the next clay pigeon.

(The reason I borrowed Finn's rifle was I found the LPV easier than my scout scope on aerial targets, but that is another story.)

[ReverendMeat]

Okie john, when you say that we've moved past the original concept, what do you mean?

[Dagga Boy]

Okie John, if there is a way to get an electronic copy of the Clifton catalog, I would appreciate it. I have a full house Brent Clifton scout from the 80's I got back then that is based on a LW Ruger 77. It makes weight and is a textbook Scout. It is a stellar rifle I sold once, and got back fairly quickly with horrible seller's remorse. It is one of my favorites.

Current climate. I love my Brockman lever guns. The 30/30 just spent the last two months in the truck traveling to both coasts. The future may bring a Magpul stock based bolt, but for now the levers are working for the times I can't carry an AUG or AR. On a side note, I found a Remington Model 8 and an old Remington 600 with the vent rib. I could only afford one and the Model 8 won, but the 600 would have made a cool build up.
I've also always liked the idea of an 03 in a Clifton stock as well.

[GJM]

If you are referring to Brent's catalog with the Cape buffalo on it, I may have an original somewhere.

[Malamute]

I found a Remington Model 8....

Love the Remington 8s and 81s. I kick myself for all the ones I passed on over the years. Hardly ever see them now. They can be loaded with stripper clips. Not sure which ones work with them, but some military strippers do work I believe.

RE the lever guns, Ive been looking for info on speed loading them. Theres some ideas floating around, similar to the shotgun speed loaders. Somebody did a cheap one with PVC tubing. The end is angle cut and its just held against the loading gate and the follower or plunger handle pushed and it loads the tube.

[Corey]

I feel a sense of inadequacy in my life. All those years I was building Scout rifles with Ted Yost and Dave Stockton and I still don't have one of my own.:(

GJM, we probably crossed paths at Gunsite. You say you took your 270 class in the 1991. Late Spring of 1991 was when I joined the Gunsmithy there.:) Those were some good times.

[Malamute]

I recall one of Coopers comments when asked for a suggestion if one couldn't afford a proper scout. He said to buy a Ruger 77 LW in 308, put a good fixed 4x scope on it and shoot it a lot. Still sounds like a reasonable approach. Except Ruger doesn't make the LW's any more.

[SteveB]

I recall one of Coopers comments when asked for a suggestion if one couldn't afford a proper scout. He said to buy a Ruger 77 LW in 308, put a good fixed 4x scope on it and shoot it a lot. Still sounds like a reasonable approach. Except Ruger doesn't make the LW's any more.

True, but they still make these:

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/products/HawkeyeLaminateCompact/specSheets/17110.html

I had one in .260 and it was a nice little rifle.

[nycnoob]

Current climate. I love my Brockman lever guns.

Nyeti, I have to ask.


Do you keep guns at Brockman's also, for "just in case"?

I am fascinated by this second amendment lifestyle, it would just be impossible here to amass "spare guns, for my smith".

[SteveB]

I feel a sense of inadequacy in my life. All those years I was building Scout rifles with Ted Yost and Dave Stockton and I still don't have one of my own.:(

GJM, we probably crossed paths at Gunsite. You say you took your 270 class in the 1991. Late Spring of 1991 was when I joined the Gunsmithy there.:) Those were some good times.

Corey, I remember you from my 270 in 2002. Hanging out in the Smithy talking 1911's and rifles; good times indeed.

[Shumba]

Three Scouts here: 2 Steyrs and a Robar QR2 wth a folding stock. It does not make weight but I love it nonetheless.
But the scout I coveted most was Louis Awerbuck's custom pre war Mauser made by the great Fred Wells.
Louis was not a fan of the forward telescope and his had a pristine Lyman Alaskan in Fred's custom QD mount.
Iron sights you could take a hammer to and they would still function. 20 inch tubes.
Lou had Fred use the long action, and then build two barrels, one in '06 and the other in .308, with a removable spacer in the mag well.
Other than the action Fred made everything else from scratch. What a labor of love.
Louis would drop into squatting and hit anything he could see.
God I miss those two great men and Jeff.
Shumba

[Lost River]

One of my all time shooting highlights, was breaking two consecutive clay pigeons launched from a skeet thrower, using Finn Aagard's Mauser .30-06 with a Leupold 1.75-6, at a Cooper reunion at the Whitington Center in Raton. Wished I stopped at two, as I missed the next clay pigeon.

(The reason I borrowed Finn's rifle was I found the LPV easier than my scout scope on aerial targets, but that is another story.)


That would certainly be awesome! Did you shoot at an apex of a curve or something? No matter what 2 in a row is fine shooting.

[Dagga Boy]

Nyeti, I have to ask.


Do you keep guns at Brockman's also, for "just in case"?

I am fascinated by this second amendment lifestyle, it would just be impossible here to amass "spare guns, for my smith".

No, I bought a 45/70 from Jackson Armory, and the 30/30 is a GJM cast off. The 30/30 is a little light for Alaska, but perfect for te Southwest, plus I was probably like a kid looking at a toy he couldn't afford and GJM felt sorry for me. Now I will admit that I usually have a 1911 or two in line at MARS Armanent.

[GJM]

That would certainly be awesome! Did you shoot at an apex of a curve or something? No matter what 2 in a row is fine shooting.

Nothing that sophisticated -- just react and when you sense the bird coming into view, press. That is why the LPV was easier than the IER scope, which is a straw by comparison!

[That Guy]

A few comments on the Ruger Scout:



Edit: It appears that 10-rd poly mags are fairly affordable and easily attained as well, for those logistically inclined.

The polymer 10 round magazine from Ruger that I've tried turned out to be a miserable failure. The five rounder has been my primary range use magazine, and I have no complaints about that one, but the ten round magazine got eventually tossed into the trash can.

Since you guys are in the states, you have a lot of other options for 10 round mags though. You should be able to find reliable 10 rounders with no great trouble.


I have two beefs with the Ruger Scout.

The first is the short barrel: the 308 is loud as hell in an 18" barrel. A 16" barrel is even worse. For a few shots, no problem. For sustained practice, big problem.

I only normally shoot somewhere around 50 rounds in a single session, but even shooting from a covered firing line, I haven't have any issues with the noise. The gun is loud, yes. I simply use plugs underneath my muffs and that solves the problem for me.

[Corey]

Corey, I remember you from my 270 in 2002. Hanging out in the Smithy talking 1911's and rifles; good times indeed.

In 2002 that would have been Corey Trapp. I'm Corey Hubbard. I was in the Smithy from '91 to '96. That was a fun place to work.

[Robinson]

This thread rocks.

[secondstoryguy]

I agree, great thread.

[Dagga Boy]

Nothing that sophisticated -- just react and when you sense the bird coming into view, press. That is why the LPV was easier than the IER scope, which is a straw by comparison!

I am going to add a compliment and observation here. Watching GJM shoot in person it is immediately apparent that he has freakish level reflexes and hand to eye coordination. When people find things that compliment their natural abilities, it is awesome to see. Between the shooting and flying very difficult aircraft to fly (helicopters and tail draggers), GJM is able to do some stuff with far less effort than most of us. I was in a class with a SEAL once who had insane twitch reflexes.....minus the eye coordination. Picture a guy with speed levels faster than a Mr. White or GJM...but who can't hit anything. It is amazing to see folks with a couple of levels of natural ability put that together with dedicated practice. On the same lines, Mrs. GJM is a world class athlete. She actually looks slow doing things.....until you see the timer and realize that she is amazingly efficient in how she moves, and thus makes up a lot of time with efficiency.
While it seems like typical thread drift....where it relates to the Scout rifle stuff is that many folks bodies and eye sight is different, and the optics set up will very much appeal differently to people. Most folks do not realize that Cooper was cross eye dominant and what was a huge stride for him in the forward mounted scope was not as much for others. Because I have lost my binocular vision due to injury, I now really prefer my optics farther back and closer to my dominant right eye.

[okie john]

Okie John, if there is a way to get an electronic copy of the Clifton catalog, I would appreciate it.

No problem. Kinda hard to read but provided for general information. Check your PMs.

http://i.imgur.com/Fdc1rU9.jpg (http://imgur.com/Fdc1rU9)

http://i.imgur.com/72ZyrmA.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/72ZyrmA)

http://i.imgur.com/lCOdOjV.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/lCOdOjV)

http://i.imgur.com/qjqyYeb.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/qjqyYeb)

http://i.imgur.com/ATNL9bB.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/ATNL9bB)

http://i.imgur.com/k9TVc8t.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/k9TVc8t)

http://i.imgur.com/xzewwXJ.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/xzewwXJ)

http://i.imgur.com/wgcBRfU.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/wgcBRfU)

http://i.imgur.com/NWLLOZl.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/NWLLOZl)

http://i.imgur.com/oFlxmxF.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/oFlxmxF)

http://i.imgur.com/4znpZHb.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/4znpZHb)

http://i.imgur.com/RKw1j5Z.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/RKw1j5Z)

http://i.imgur.com/txX4sd1.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/txX4sd1)

http://i.imgur.com/yqURkvP.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/yqURkvP)

http://i.imgur.com/vuzbfZC.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/vuzbfZC)

http://i.imgur.com/zLg1fLh.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/zLg1fLh)

http://i.imgur.com/0VbVA54.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/0VbVA54)

http://i.imgur.com/VkNk9dh.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/VkNk9dh)

http://i.imgur.com/I0ukoMA.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/I0ukoMA)

http://i.imgur.com/bTTTMk9.jpg?1 (http://imgur.com/bTTTMk9)

Hope this helps.


Okie John

[okie john]

Okie john, when you say that we've moved past the original concept, what do you mean?

I posted that late at night after a brutal week at work, and upon reflection (and after 10 hours of uninterrupted sleep), I'd like to walk it back. I think that the concept of a short, light, general-purpose rifle is still sound, but that the way Cooper wanted to see it executed has been overtaken by events:

The pedestal barrel has been replaced by various executions of the 1913 rail.
It's possible to build an AR variant in something other than 5.56 NATO that makes weight and has the power to take medium game cleanly--IF used with modern bullets.
Various optics can now completely outrun the 2.5x Scout scope.


I also think that we can get away from Cooper's insistence on a 1m/3kg envelope as long as we don't go completely rogue. For instance, I think that most if not all of the long guns shown in this thread and in https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?20968-I-don-t-think-an-AR-is-the-answer would qualify with ease, even if they don't fit exactly within the envelope.


Okie John

[ldunnmobile]

The way y'all get revved up about revolvers is the way I feel about scout rifles, so I'm loving this thread. My concept of a scout rifle is something I can make rapid surgical hits with from 10 - 500 yards all in a handy reliable package. I've experimented with different stuff...all which didn't quite live up to my expectations. Enter the latest addition to the fold...

9560
9561

This a Tikka T3X "newest version" CTR in 308. Matt Stewart of Stewart Precision cerakoted it FDE and cut the barrel to 16.5" and threaded it for my Rugged Razor that is in ATF jail. (Matt does AWESOME work BTW and is a First Class guy. He has a shop in Southeast Oklahoma). Scope is a Nightforce 2.5-10x42 that I love. Had it for a while and it's bounced around on several different rifles. Running the RMR offset and it's easily accomplishing what I hoped. I don't miss/worry about having iron backups at all. Sling is a Proctor WOTG. It's simple and I like it very much (I have them on my AR's). Stock pack is a PIG Hybrid bag model that I'm still making my mind up about.

When my Razor clears the ATF I will be running it primarily on this rifle, mounted over the top of their brake. It's only 6.5 inches.
9562

Finally and most importantly... it's shooting .75 inch groups. My scout rifle concept may be a bit different than some but for me... this rifle has checked all my boxes.

[nycnoob]

This a Tikka T3X "newest version" CTR in 308.

Why did you go with 308? In another thread people were saying that 308 is dead for shooting over 300 yards
and you want to go to 500 so why not go with 6.5 creedmoor?

[GJM]

Darryl, give me your current address to send the $20 to you at.

Okie John, that is exactly the Clifton catalog I still have somewhere. He did a number of things for me, including stock my 460 G&A that went to Botswana on our honeymoon trip.

The T3X CTR is stunning, and just what I was thinking of doing to one. Did you consider fluting the barrel, and what is the empty weight bare with the barrel chop?

I just came in from shooting in the rain. Verified zero with my lightweight Guide Gun and 300 grain ammo. It shoots Federal 300 Trophy Bonded and 300 Barnes Vortx to the same POI. Recoil is actually pleasant, where the 420 Garrett +P knocks the crap out of me beyond a few cartridges. Also was shooting a Brockman model 70 .308, prone at 100 and snaps to the head box at 25 yards.

[GJM]

Oh, a complaint about shooting the Guide Gun at 100 yards on eight steel. It isn't much fun, because every hit knocks the damn steel plate and stand over, meaning you get to do a lot of walking back and forth.

[HCM]

Why did you go with 308? In another thread people were saying that 308 is dead for shooting over 300 yards
and you want to go to 500 so why not go with 6.5 creedmoor?

6.5 and 260 shoot a little flatter so there is less math making it "better" but .308 isn't obsolete. Plus I can find .308 in Walmart and other odd corners of the world. 6.5 and .260 not so much.

[ldunnmobile]

Why did you go with 308? In another thread people were saying that 308 is dead for shooting over 300 yards
and you want to go to 500 so why not go with 6.5 creedmoor?

6.5 CM is a FANTASTIC round. I am fixing to order a new 6.5 CM barrel for my AI.

For this rifle... I thought about it and dismissed it for a few reasons:

1. 6.5 needs a longer barrel to really make it sing. 308 excels in a shorty.
2. 308 is available everywhere and cheap.
3. Call me old fashioned but 308 retains more weight and makes a bigger hole. This is my "put meat on the table gun" and while our bears are more like 500+ lbs than 1500+ lbs... I like the bigger thump.

If I was planning on shooting at 1000y, 1200y etc... I would want a 6.5...and a different gun. That's a different tool in the toolbox for me.

[GJM]

As long as we are doing favorite rifles. This is a .375 H&H, but it has served in the role of light rifle on three African hunts to Zimbabwe and Zambia. It is a pre-64 model 70, lightly tuned. Stock barrel cut down, NPI stock, aperture sights, Black Teflon. Shoots an inch at 100 with 300 grain Trophy Bonded. Has held zero for the last twenty years. Harvested lion, leopard, buffalo, eland, zebra and a slew of lesser plains game.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zps7nsrxv8t.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zps7nsrxv8t.jpeg.html)

[JAD]

Cool thread.

I'm enamored of the concept (and its author) and have a pretty legit scout at the moment (no irons and a touch heavy), and have had a Rem7 (also ironless but wicked light; the action kind of sucked compared to Finnish guns i was playing with at the time). I have read a lot about it and spent some time with several people who were on the committee either directly or as correspondents.

A thing can be defined by what it does. A scout rifle can be held by the grip by its user in one hand, arm extended parallel to the floor, for one minute. That's how much a scout weighs -- it depends on you.

A scout can take 400 pound game at 400(?) yards, and the cartridge should be commonly available.

A scout can be topped off. A scout can be dragged through a thicket without snagging. A scout can be carried comfortably at its point of balance.

I don't think the Colonel was very serious about its antipersonnel applications. I was sitting in the armory and someone asked whether he thought a rifle squad should be armed with scouts. He said "maybe one of them. For the rest I'd prefer that," indicating a G3 with a folded stock and slim forearm stuck under the bench.

[nycnoob]

6.5 and 260 shoot a little flatter so there is less math making it "better" but .308 isn't obsolete. Plus I can find .308 in Walmart and other odd corners of the world. 6.5 and .260 not so much.

I recently got a Tikka in 308 and am still trying to figure out if I made the right decision.
I really do not see me using it past 300 yards so I still think 308 is best for me.

[John Hearne]

Oh, a complaint about shooting the Guide Gun at 100 yards on eight steel. It isn't much fun, because every hit knocks the damn steel plate and stand over, meaning you get to do a lot of walking back and forth.

That means nothing.... :)

[ldunnmobile]

As long as we are doing favorite rifles. This is a .375 H&H, but it has served in the role of light rifle on three African hunts to Zimbabwe and Zambia. It is a pre-64 model 70, lightly tuned. Stock barrel cut down, NPI stock, aperture sights, Black Teflon. Shoots an inch at 100 with 300 grain Trophy Bonded. Has held zero for the last twenty years. Harvested lion, leopard, buffalo, eland, zebra and a slew of lesser plains game.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zps7nsrxv8t.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zps7nsrxv8t.jpeg.html)

I love this rifle.

[okie john]

A thing can be defined by what it does. A scout rifle can be held by the grip by its user in one hand, arm extended parallel to the floor, for one minute. That's how much a scout weighs -- it depends on you.

I'm not sure that logic this clear has a place in the current discussion.


Okie John

[JAD]

I'm not sure that logic this clear has a place in the current discussion.


Okie John

That's ok, my own comment has got me busy googling for a 3 pound rifle.

[okie john]

As long as we are doing favorite rifles. This is a .375 H&H, but it has served in the role of light rifle on three African hunts to Zimbabwe and Zambia. It is a pre-64 model 70, lightly tuned. Stock barrel cut down, NPI stock, aperture sights, Black Teflon. Shoots an inch at 100 with 300 grain Trophy Bonded. Has held zero for the last twenty years. Harvested lion, leopard, buffalo, eland, zebra and a slew of lesser plains game.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zps7nsrxv8t.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zps7nsrxv8t.jpeg.html)

Speaking of people who should write books...


Okie John

[HCM]

I recently got a Tikka in 308 and am still trying to figure out if I made the right decision.
I really do not see me using it past 300 yards so I still think 308 is best for me.

You can use de-linked NY Army National Guard 7.62x51 when the break down of social order comes.

I have the wants for a Tikka CTR in either .260 or 6.5 as a long range set up but I'm not getting rid of my .308's. For a "one practical rifle" .308 is still my first choice.

[SteveB]

You can use de-linked NY Army National Guard 7.62x51 when the break down of social order comes.

I have the wants for a Tikka CTR in either .260 or 6.5 as a long range set up but I'm not getting rid of my .308's. For a "one practical rifle" .308 is still my first choice.

No doubt. Having taken a couple of practical rifle courses where you can burn through a lot of ammo in week, it's great to be able to buy cheap NATO ball.

[okie john]

No doubt. Having taken a couple of practical rifle courses where you can burn through a lot of ammo in week, it's great to be able to buy cheap NATO ball.

Make sure you have a 7.62x51 chamber if you want to use milsurp ammo. Some of it can be a very tight fit in a .308 Winchester chamber.


Okie John

[Lost River]

This thread rocks.

I agree.

There is a way to rate it, and feel free to do so. I just did..

[Lost River]

The way y'all get revved up about revolvers is the way I feel about scout rifles, so I'm loving this thread. My concept of a scout rifle is something I can make rapid surgical hits with from 10 - 500 yards all in a handy reliable package. I've experimented with different stuff...all which didn't quite live up to my expectations. Enter the latest addition to the fold...

9560
9561

This a Tikka T3X "newest version" CTR in 308. Matt Stewart of Stewart Precision cerakoted it FDE and cut the barrel to 16.5" and threaded it for my Rugged Razor that is in ATF jail. (Matt does AWESOME work BTW and is a First Class guy. He has a shop in Southeast Oklahoma). Scope is a Nightforce 2.5-10x42 that I love. Had it for a while and it's bounced around on several different rifles. Running the RMR offset and it's easily accomplishing what I hoped. I don't miss/worry about having iron backups at all. Sling is a Proctor WOTG. It's simple and I like it very much (I have them on my AR's). Stock pack is a PIG Hybrid bag model that I'm still making my mind up about.

When my Razor clears the ATF I will be running it primarily on this rifle, mounted over the top of their brake. It's only 6.5 inches.
9562

Finally and most importantly... it's shooting .75 inch groups. My scout rifle concept may be a bit different than some but for me... this rifle has checked all my boxes.

This looks fairly similar to my old T3 Varmint .308.

In the early 2000s Tikka used to import T3 Varmint models in .308. I picked one up and it proved to be an exceptional shooter. When I finally was able to afford my dream .308 (A TRG), I had the T3 Varmint trimmed back to 20"s. It is threaded so I can swap out the brake for a Gemtech .30 cal can when needed. It used to have a variable optic on it, but in practical application I have found that I am very comfortable using a fixed 10x (USO) for the type of shooting I tend to do. It may be hardly ideal, but it is not even remotely close to the handicap that people make them out to be out the internet.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Rifles/IMG_1558_zpsoajcea4h.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Rifles/IMG_1558_zpsoajcea4h.jpg.html)

[Lost River]

Why did you go with 308? In another thread people were saying that 308 is dead for shooting over 300 yards
and you want to go to 500 so why not go with 6.5 creedmoor?

I have quite literally dozens dead elk and mule deer that were one shot kills, shot well over 300 yards that are a testament to the silliness of saying that the .308 is dead...

In fact I have a few animals shot in excess of 500 yards that were one shot kills, that are perfect examples of the fact that people tend to read regurgitated information far too much and get in the field far too little. Quite often that regurgitated information is flat out wrong too..

The below picture is not the best, but the two mule deer were standing right next to each at 598 yards. Both were one shot kills, with the .308 Tikka Varmint.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/2005Deer598yds308Tikka.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/2005Deer598yds308Tikka.jpg.html)


While there is no question 6.5s have a plethora of high B.C. projectiles, so do .30 cals, 7mms, etc.

[Lost River]

Better shot of the short T3 varmint

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/IMG_0529_zpsbjowcrkw.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/IMG_0529_zpsbjowcrkw.jpg.html)

[GJM]

Jeff Cooper defined a scout rifle, by establishing various criteria such as weight, length, etc.

Over time, I have come to think of scout rifles in terms of the things you can do with them. My list is:

1) be able to defend yourself with it up close.

2) be able to easily reach out beyond handgun range.

3) be able to carry it comfortably in the field.

4) pack a big enough punch to be capable of stopping a charge from any North American animal.

5) be durable enough that you could take a three day rifle course and not have it come apart.

6) by feature and function, be able to shoot up to your ability with the rifle.

So for example, I have a NULA .260 bolt action, that based just on exterior dimensions, easily qualifies as a Scout rifle. However, there is no way that thing would hold up to three days of pounding on it, or would I want to rely on its reliability or function to defend myself. When my wife and I were sheep hunting in the Brooks Range with a pair of them, we relied on our Glock 29's for defense. As a result, Brockman built me up a .260 on a model 70 action, that I would absolutely rely on. On the other end of the spectrum, there are rifles that are just too heavy to be comfortable dragging over hill and dale.

[rob_s]

Jeff Cooper defined a scout rifle, by establishing various criteria such as weight, length, etc.

Over time, I have come to think of scout rifles in terms of the things you can do with them. My list is:

1) be able to defend yourself with it up close.

2) be able to easily reach out beyond handgun range.

3) be able to carry it comfortably in the field.

4) pack a big enough punch to be capable of stopping a charge from any North American animal.

5) be durable enough that you could take a three day rifle course and not have it come apart.

6) by feature and function, be able to shoot up to your ability with the rifle.

So for example, I have a NULA .260 bolt action, that based just on exterior dimensions, easily qualifies as a Scout rifle. However, there is no way that thing would hold up to three days of pounding on it, or would I want to rely on its reliability or function to defend myself. When my wife and I were sheep hunting in the Brooks Range with a pair of them, we relied on our Glock 29's for defense. As a result, Brockman built me up a .260 on a model 70 action, that I would absolutely rely on. On the other end of the spectrum, there are rifles that are just too heavy to be comfortable dragging over hill and dale.

I think that's a pretty good way of looking at it.

[coldcase1984]

Ldunn that is a snazzy Micro CTR. What is its weight all up as pictured?

GJM, another epic thread! Is there a thread on your LW . 45/70? Got a ported first year GG I need to cut down.

secondstoryguy, I feel your pain. Currently suggesting at least our 15 FIs be allowed to carry personal scoped precision rifles along w our Commandoes in our cars for today's threat matrix. Most of our department is now issued Commandoes, but have a hard time keeping all their rounds on a piece of copy paper at 50 yards.

I've been thinking about putting my 1978 Leupy M8 4x on the new threaded Kimber Montana .308 and piggybacking an old H1 on it for a GP rig, stuffed w TAP 110s most of the time. Wish they made a fast twist .22/250...

My AR GP fun gun is centered on a DD skinny middy, Troy Alpha, CMC trigger and a LW 2.5x HD. It is greasy fast.

[secondstoryguy]

Awe snap, the Kimber Montana has a threaded barrel now! Thats cool. I loved my Kimber Montana when I lived up in Montana, that thing was handy as hell to tote around and very accurate. I shot a 5 shot 1.5" group at 300 yards with mine using Federal Fusion ammo back in the day...I stupidly sold that rifle to a friend who still uses it to this day.

Some say the Kimber action is weak and I admit that the early versions had feeding issues (they changed the feed ramp design and cured this) but they are an excellent value for a lightweight mountain rifle. Has anyone here had issues with or seen a Kimber bolt gun go tits up?

As a side note this thread has motivated me to look for a new Winchester 70 project gun. My search came up dry but did locate this nice Winchester 70 Classic Stainless in .375H&H(these were great rifles for the most part). The guy only wants like $995 for it with glass, QD rings and a Zeiss scope: http://austin.texasguntrader.com/index.php?a=2&b=833023

[okie john]

Awe snap, the Kimber Montana has a threaded barrel now! Thats cool. I loved my Kimber Montana when I lived up in Montana, that thing was handy as hell to tote around and very accurate. I shot a 5 shot 1.5" group at 300 yards with mine using Federal Fusion ammo back in the day...I stupidly sold that rifle to a friend who still uses it to this day.

Some say the Kimber action is weak and I admit that the early versions had feeding issues (they changed the feed ramp design and cured this) but they are an excellent value for a lightweight mountain rifle. Has anyone here had issues with or seen a Kimber bolt gun go tits up?

As a side note this thread has motivated me to look for a new Winchester 70 project gun. My search came up dry but did locate this nice Winchester 70 Classic Stainless in .375H&H(these were great rifles for the most part). The guy only wants like $995 for it with glass, QD rings and a Zeiss scope: http://austin.texasguntrader.com/index.php?a=2&b=833023

If I needed a .375, I'd be on that like white on rice.


Okie John

[GJM]

Awe snap, the Kimber Montana has a threaded barrel now! Thats cool. I loved my Kimber Montana when I lived up in Montana, that thing was handy as hell to tote around and very accurate. I shot a 5 shot 1.5" group at 300 yards with mine using Federal Fusion ammo back in the day...I stupidly sold that rifle to a friend who still uses it to this day.

Some say the Kimber action is weak and I admit that the early versions had feeding issues (they changed the feed ramp design and cured this) but they are an excellent value for a lightweight mountain rifle. Has anyone here had issues with or seen a Kimber bolt gun go tits up?

As a side note this thread has motivated me to look for a new Winchester 70 project gun. My search came up dry but did locate this nice Winchester 70 Classic Stainless in .375H&H(these were great rifles for the most part). The guy only wants like $995 for it with glass, QD rings and a Zeiss scope: http://austin.texasguntrader.com/index.php?a=2&b=833023

I have one, along with three pre-64 ones. The new ones don't feed .375 like the old ones. Brockman says the new classic model 70 rifles are fine with "regular" cartridges, but don't feed as well with belted magnums, because the feed lips are not integral to the action like on the old ones. If you can't find a pre-64 .375 for a reasonable price, you can find .300 H&H guns, which are the same action and much more reasonably priced.

[Paul D]

If I needed a .375, I'd be on that like white on rice.


Okie John

An alternative is the CZ 550 magnums. This one is a .458 Lott (not .375) but is the same size. It has a Mauser action, set trigger and you can shove 5 rounds into the internal magazine. The barrel is a little long at 25 inches though.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i45/pnduong/Zambia/CZ550458.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i45/pnduong/Zambia/CZ550485Rightside.jpg

[okie john]

An alternative is the CZ 550 magnums. This one is a .458 Lott (not .375) but is the same size. It has a Mauser action, set trigger and you can shove 5 rounds into the internal magazine. The barrel is a little long at 25 inches though.

I had one of those for a while. Very nice piece of gear, with no worries whatsoever about it being the right size. I've also got a 550 American in 9.3x62, which is much handier overall.


Okie John

[ldunnmobile]

Coldcase, not sure what it weighs. It's not as light as many of the rifles in here but it FEELS light to me, mostly because it balances really well IMO. Comparing it to a 308 AR that was decked out similarly... the AR was a pig and this feels sleek and handy and rides slung up much better. I think this is one of those subjective things because I bet it's a porker on the scales but feels great in hand. I used to elk hunt regularly and (if I ever get to go again) I would absolutely grab it to scamper over the mountains with and I'm neither big nor strong.

[GJM]

I have a CZ in .458 Lott and .416 Rigby, and the action seems well proportioned for those calibers.

This is a .375 that I consider a Scout as it is about 7.5 pounds all up, and light enough I have used it deer hunting around bears.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsni35bzwf.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsni35bzwf.jpeg.html)




This is a long time collector - a .375 used by a missionary in Africa. Every notch represents an elephant harvested.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsgfvuj9fk.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsgfvuj9fk.jpeg.html)

[Lost River]

"oh my" reference picture #1

and

"Oh My!" reference picture #2.

#2 is absolutely book worthy I bet.

An iron sighted bolt gun, with a bunch of notches earned from elephants killed, by a missionary no less, is certainly the material that great books are based upon.

[PTT]

Great thread and I thoroughly enjoy the discussion.

I think GJM's criteria of a modern Scout rifle are very good. I think this criteria focuses on the conceptual idea and gives room for technological advances which over time may significantly change the form of a modern Scout rifle. I will use these wickets in the future for builds and evaluation.

The third point states that the rifle needs to be a portable weight. What is that for the North American user? I understand that this is rather subjective, but I'm curious for a general definition. A slick eight pound rifle can quickly turn into a ten pound rifle with five down, Andy's sling, and a NF compact scope. Does that meet GJM's criteria? I think a few of the rifles in this thread are probably pretty heavy. A Scout rifle is a compromise. Thoughts?

[TheRoland]

I'm wondering how practical a lot of these T3 builds would be in some sort of chassis; accepting AICS magazines would make a big long-term difference but the added weight might be too much.

[Wondering Beard]

The third point states that the rifle needs to be a portable weight. What is that for the North American user? I understand that this is rather subjective, but I'm curious for a general definition. A slick eight pound rifle can quickly turn into a ten pound rifle with five down, Andy's sling, and a NF compact scope. Does that meet GJM's criteria? I think a few of the rifles in this thread are probably pretty heavy. A Scout rifle is a compromise. Thoughts?

If I remember correctly, Jeff Cooper posited that one should be able to hold the rifle (unloaded but with all accessories, or was it loaded too?), at arms length, by the "pistol grip", for a certain amount of time (1 minute, 5 minutes?) and not tire.

[secondstoryguy]

I request that this thread be re-titled to bad-ass bolt gun porn.

[SteveB]

Cooper's spec for weight of the scout rifle was under 3 kg (6.6 lbs). Modern synthetic stocks and lighter barrel profiles can get you there, but one quick way to turn the rifle into a pig is heavy glass. The scout scope weighed 7.5 oz, the Leupold 2.5-8X that I favor on hunting rifles weighs 11.4 oz, my Nightforce 2.5-10X weighs 19 oz. So I can take 1/2 pound off the rifle by choosing the Leupold over the NF. Question is, do you need the heavy-duty build quality and illuminated reticle of a heavier scope on your practical rifle? I would rather carry the lighter scope in QD rings and have an Aimpoint zeroed to the rifle in my pack. If the idea of a practical rifle is that you can use it for a course, hunting, PD or messing around on the range, maybe it's a stretch to expect one optic to handle all of that well. Easy enough with QD rings and mounts to swap your optics to fit the job.

[GJM]

"oh my" reference picture #1

and

"Oh My!" reference picture #2.

#2 is absolutely book worthy I bet.

An iron sighted bolt gun, with a bunch of notches earned from elephants killed, by a missionary no less, is certainly the material that great books are based upon.

I bought the rifle directly from the missionary after he returned to the US. Apparently, when they needed money for the church, they would harvest an elephant and sell the ivory. I have some of the original game licenses from Tanzania, marked "Tanganyika," as it was previously known. The missionary said he took more than 100 Cape buffalo with that rifle, but only the elephants got a notch on the stock. The rifle isn't nearby, by 34 elephant is my recollection. He was small in stature and had shortened the stock. Almost all the bluing is worn off. He used the factory open sights.

[ranger]

I agree that optics, rings, bases, etc add weight to a "light rifle" very quickly. I am looking for "light" scope and rings for a hunting rifle build. I am focused on Talley rings and looking at the Vortex Razor "LH" line of rifle scopes - they have a 1.5-8x plus a 2-10.

I have a Remington 700 LTR in 308 (20 inch barrel fluted) that I added a 4x14x50 scope, rail scope base, and sturdy 30mm rings. It is great to shoot but not so much to carry. I am now trying to slim it down so I can reasonably carry it hunting and first weight loss area will be optics and rings.

[Lost River]

I'm wondering how practical a lot of these T3 builds would be in some sort of chassis; accepting AICS magazines would make a big long-term difference but the added weight might be too much.

That chassis' are extremely practical in that they:

*Do not require any gunsmithing (usually)
*Allow the user to use the most practical of current mag systems (A.I. mags)
*Are very easily adjustable for the end user, length of pull, like wearing heavy winter jackets, etc)
*Very easy to add bipods, flashlights, can openers, etc

The down side, as you mentioned, is the weight. As of yet, none of the chassis' I have seen really come close to a reasonable weight as compared to something like a a McMillan with Edge fill.

Of course these days the lighter chassis systems, that take AI mags make more and more sense, even if they are about as aesthetically pleasing as a curb feelers on a custom hot rod.

[GJM]

Great thread and I thoroughly enjoy the discussion.

I think GJM's criteria of a modern Scout rifle are very good. I think this criteria focuses on the conceptual idea and gives room for technological advances which over time may significantly change the form of a modern Scout rifle. I will use these wickets in the future for builds and evaluation.

The third point states that the rifle needs to be a portable weight. What is that for the North American user? I understand that this is rather subjective, but I'm curious for a general definition. A slick eight pound rifle can quickly turn into a ten pound rifle with five down, Andy's sling, and a NF compact scope. Does that meet GJM's criteria? I think a few of the rifles in this thread are probably pretty heavy. A Scout rifle is a compromise. Thoughts?

The first time we hunted sheep in the Brooks Range, I had an all up nine pound, pre-64 .270 Weatherby, my .44, Leica Geovid binoculars, a Hillenberg tent, and other quality gear. However, all that stuff weighed about 60 pounds, and I was miserable traveling cross country in the mountains. That winter my wife and I made a plan, and the following year our packs were under 30 pounds and we had featherweight NULA .260 rifles. The difference in our comfort traveling was like night and day.

[TR675]

I bought the rifle directly from the missionary after he returned to the US. Apparently, when they needed money for the church, they would harvest an elephant and sell the ivory.

A missionary in Africa shooting elephants for their ivory?

That's like a perfect storm of things that would make a Yankee scream.

[PTT]

SteveB,
Sounds like we have a similar setup. On my practical build I have three possible sighting methods. NF, Leupold, and irons. The irons are mostly a backup system. Out of the options available, the NF has seen the most time on the rifle. I understand that I am paying a weight penalty for the durable scope, but I like the reliability and the illuminated reticle. I just need to go to the gym more so I can easily surpass Col Cooper's test.

GJM,
Maybe a sheep hunt is best reserved for a specialized rifle? Obviously, a rifle can be built tailored to each scenario. We have large bores for dangerous game, lightweight for sheep, 223's for ground squirrels, and heavy chassis systems for longer range. These are purpose built rifles and each lacks the versatility of the Scout. The modern Scout covers all of this ground, although there probably are better tools for each specific role. I can't really think of a rifle that covers more territory than a modern .30 cal Scout.

The Brockman builds in this thread look about perfect. In my opinion, they meet the intent that Col Cooper was after. I think this is the same goal that the Canadian Rangers are looking for with the Tikka builds. It's the one-rifle concept for any situation that may arise. Hopefully, the new factory rifles are good as custom built Brockman guns can be difficult to come by.

[coldcase1984]

I nearly got a Sportsman's Whorehouse T3 Super Lite in .308 but took the plunge on a new Montana to save another pound.

My T3 CTR .260 weighed 10.5 lbs all up w 5 rounds of 120 in it when I went elk chasing last October in Northern Colorado. It kicked my 56-year- old azz at 8,500 feet. The Montana is a skosh over 6 lb. w Leupy 6x36 in Talleys but is shooting only MOA ish vs. Tikka that stays in .5s.

All this brings me back to the 1st Graf: When my fun money is right I may get a T3 SL sale priced now and get McMillan to make an Edge fill hunt/Tac stock that takes AI.

Digging the Micro as BUIS thunk. Had one on my work Colt's Commando for eight years now & have never had to flip up Magpul BUIS.

Will start playing first by getting a Aluminum or titanium pic rail on Montana after this elk season and run just the H1 for a 5.5 lb. Deathwand in the woods on Tennessee's Highland Rim.

[Dagga Boy]

Don't know if I have ever posted these here before. It has been a awhile, but in their time both of these got a ton of both carry and shooting. First the Clifton Scout rifle. Ruger based, actual Milt Sparks leather and Brent Clifton built. Got it right after I had gone out to LAPD D Platoon in 1989 and was on a very heavy all things Gunsite program.

[Dagga Boy]

This was my travel and next to the front door gun in California. Rode a ton of miles between California and Arizona when I had little faith in trusting fellow LEO's to understand California's convoluted "assault weapons" laws and "rules". 45-70 Marlin cut to 32" overall with a Scout scope. This hits the shooter hard....but you really do not want to be in front of it. Very handy for what it was for. Gordon Davis Leather on this one.

[Inkwell 41]

Dang, I'm coveting again. That is a proper Scout.

[John Hearne]

Don't know if I have ever posted these here before. It has been a awhile, but in their time both of these got a ton of both carry and shooting. First the Clifton Scout rifle. Ruger based, actual Milt Sparks leather and Brent Clifton built. Got it right after I had gone out to LAPD D Platoon in 1989 and was on a very heavy all things Gunsite program.

How is it that you have one of everything I have ever lusted for? Do you have an 80's vintage Tawy Kitaen in a gun safe somewhere?

[Dagga Boy]

How is it that you have one of everything I have ever lusted for? Do you have an 80's vintage Tawy Kitaen in a gun safe somewhere?

No.....that is why I have other cool stuff. Besides, my Scout has aged better since the 80's.

[GJM]

Darryl, you need to give me a budget and tell me your priorities, so I can update your practical rifle collection from the "eight track" era. :)

[Lost River]

Darryl, you need to give me a budget and tell me your priorities, so I can update your practical rifle collection from the "eight track" era. :)

Heck,

I need to sneak over to Gooding and rummage through your cast offs at Brockman's. I am sure there is a gem or two in there!

[Dagga Boy]

Darryl, you need to give me a budget and tell me your priorities, so I can update your practical rifle collection from the "eight track" era. :)

The 80's and into the early 90's was my prime.....I miss it. Is was also a cassette guy (but we did have "Betamax"), Wayne is the 8 track warrior.

[SteveB]

This was my travel and next to the front door gun in California. Rode a ton of miles between California and Arizona when I had little faith in trusting fellow LEO's to understand California's convoluted "assault weapons" laws and "rules". 45-70 Marlin cut to 32" overall with a Scout scope. This hits the shooter hard....but you really do not want to be in front of it. Very handy for what it was for. Gordon Davis Leather on this one.

That's a beauty; here's it's little brother:

9606

[GJM]

Jim Brockman has sprung into action on this project. Here is what he started with -- a pre-64 .30-06 length action, a .30-06 barrel he pulled off another of my actions years ago, and an original wood stock.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsyq7gc5d6.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsyq7gc5d6.jpeg.html)

Here is the barrel cut and on the action:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsu2xqewny.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsu2xqewny.jpeg.html)


Threaded. Also note the front sight installed.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpst11acgia.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpst11acgia.jpeg.html)

[Robinson]

That's getting real interesting.

[drummer]

As has been mentioned, this has been a great thread. The Clifton catalog is great. And Okie John cost me money when he posted his Scout Rifle Reference List and I saw that I didn't have a copy of The Rifle in America. Fortunately, I found a good deal on a signed, first edition. It should be an interesting read when it gets here.

While most of the discussion has been about classic rifles, we now have the ability to create self-loading rifles capable of meeting the weight threshold and the possibility of being pressed into military service, such as the AR in 6.5G or 6.8 and the lightweight .308 ARs. I can't help but wonder what the Col. would have thought about them. Really, most of the advancements have been in optics, moreso than small arms design.

[okie john]

Really, most of the advancements have been in optics, moreso than small arms design.

And ammunition. That's what lets the 6.5 and 6.8 hang with the 308.


Okie John

[GJM]

While most of the discussion has been about classic rifles, we now have the ability to create self-loading rifles capable of meeting the weight threshold and the possibility of being pressed into military service, such as the AR in 6.5G or 6.8 and the lightweight .308 ARs. I can't help but wonder what the Col. would have thought about them. Really, most of the advancements have been in optics, moreso than small arms design.

I don't know what Jeff Cooper would think today, but I absolutely know what he thought in the past, because he told me and anyone else who was listening. He didn't like the AR design, he didn't like variable telescopes, and the calibers he liked were .22, .45 acp, .308, .30-06, .350 RM, .375 H&H, .45-70 and .460 G&A. His idea of a military long gun was the Garand, M1A, and HK 91.

[Shotgun]

I hate this thread and this website. ;) I now need a scout rifle, a BBQ gun, Wilson customization of my Beretta, a different AR, etc. I was so blissfully happy in my gun ownership several months ago.


(Great thread)

[Dagga Boy]

I don't know what Jeff Cooper would think today, but I absolutely know what he thought in the past, because he told me and anyone else who was listening. He didn't like the AR design, he didn't like variable telescopes, and the calibers he liked were .22, .45 acp, .308, .30-06, .350 RM, .375 H&H, .45-70 and .460 G&A. His idea of a military long gun was the Garand, M1A, and HK 91.

Obviously, was not thinking about the future of a transgender Marine Corps.

In all seriousness.....just had three rifles built by Robar for a old school gunfighter and Gunsite alumni from the old days. 16" AR's with Aimpoint Micro's that are under 6 pounds. The best one will shoot to 1/2". The worst, around .75". Really puts the semi auto back in the game. As much as GJM is fond of my picking on me about my retro ways, my recently completed 12.5" 6.8 SPC gun is really the Scout rifle that fits my home state needs. Just not going to any other States, which is why the Brockman 30/30 has been getting so much time lately.

[GJM]

Obviously, was not thinking about the future of a transgender Marine Corps.

In all seriousness.....just had three rifles built by Robar for a old school gunfighter and Gunsite alumni from the old days. 16" AR's with Aimpoint Micro's that are under 6 pounds. The best one will shoot to 1/2". The worst, around .75". Really puts the semi auto back in the game. As much as GJM is fond of my picking on me about my retro ways, my recently completed 12.5" 6.8 SPC gun is really the Scout rifle that fits my home state needs. Just not going to any other States, which is why the Brockman 30/30 has been getting so much time lately.

Darryl, is that on those polymer AR carbines at Robar, and if so, have they been working out?

[drummer]

I don't know what Jeff Cooper would think today, but I absolutely know what he thought in the past, because he told me and anyone else who was listening. He didn't like the AR design, he didn't like variable telescopes, and the calibers he liked were .22, .45 acp, .308, .30-06, .350 RM, .375 H&H, .45-70 and .460 G&A. His idea of a military long gun was the Garand, M1A, and HK 91.

The Col. knew the AR as a .223 without the benefit of the better projectile selection of today. I recall reading the Col's comments on the G3, specifically about his disdain for their heavy triggers.

I would argue that some of the current generation of AR .308 rifles are much more shootable than the G3 and FAL while being accurate enough to be interesting and giving those rifles a run for their money in terms of reliability.

[Dagga Boy]

Darryl, is that on those polymer AR carbines at Robar, and if so, have they been working out?

Yep, and every report I have heard has been highly positive.

[45dotACP]

That's a beauty; here's it's little brother:

9606

Stolen from Les

9625

[theJanitor]

would a rifle/optic like the one used in this video fill the role? I'm not a bolt action guy, so this is WAY out of my lane.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4Wkz58rZOw

[Dagga Boy]

The rifle at the end with the Micro would be a better set up weight wise. The one guy with the custom box magazine who is in many of the earlier videos is simply insanely good and has one of those jobs where all he does is kill stuff like a machine. The Euro guys love the Blaser rifles. Neat guns, but a bit weird for most Americans. It is a good example of how well red dots work for zapping dynamic targets when run right.

Frank-Albrecht is fricking amazing....short video with his custom Blaser.
http://youtu.be/7ob0fgc0I7A

[Malamute]

That was the one Ive seen before. Outstanding shooter.

I wish there were someone like that dumping isis guys running across open streets in Syria. Ive seen them in videos and kept wishing someone could whack them like that.

[Dagga Boy]

The solution to those savages is Warthogs, lots of Warthogs....

[That Guy]

So, what are the preferred optics for a modern scout rifle?

[Shumba]

The Col. knew the AR as a .223 without the benefit of the better projectile selection of today. I recall reading the Col's comments on the G3, specifically about his disdain for their heavy triggers.

I would argue that some of the current generation of AR .308 rifles are much more shootable than the G3 and FAL while being accurate enough to be interesting and giving those rifles a run for their money in terms of reliability.

Jeff's 91 had the trigger worked over by Williams, and it was a gem. It has been a long time since I fondled it but my guess is five pounds or so. He had a Beretta 59 that he preferred over the HK, since it was based on the M1.
He had a six power telescope on his Steyr SSG IIRC, which he liked a lot but railed against the fragile magazines.
Shumba

[SteveB]

So, what are the preferred optics for a modern scout rifle?

I think the classic scout rifle with the forward-mounted scope is old tech; not the best solution given a variety of low-light or sun glare situations:

9664

My opinion is that the ideal practical rifle has conventional scope bases for a receiver-mounted scope, as well as a forward base for mounting an RDS. For me, the whole idea of a forward-mounted optic is to get the optic away from the action, for reloading (in a non-DBM rifle), for increased speed and efficiency in running the bolt, and for DG rifles with heavy recoil. As far as Aimpoints go, I'm fine with a receiver mounted micro, but I like the 30mm tube in a forward mount. I think some LPV's are so good now, that my favorite setup is a short rifle with an LPV with a usable reticle (bright dot with ballistic reticle) and a reliable DBM system. Depending on the rifle, the scope has to be of a size not to interfere with the bolt throw; you, for example, can use a fatter scope on a Sako or Tikka action with it's short bolt lift, than on a Model 70 action.

[okie john]

I emailed Beretta USA about the Canada Ranger rifle. Their response just arrived:


Thank you for contacting Beretta Customer Support.
There are no plans at present to introduce this rifle to the U.S. market by SAKO, as it was a special order item by the Canadian government.


Okie John

[Lost River]

Taking a a T3 lite, and dropping it into a laminate stock, adding bottom metal that accepts mags of your choice (AI or Sako), and irons will get you pretty close.

Just yesterday, I robbed my custom 6mm Rem T3 of its green laminate stock, and shipped it off to CDI precision for some bottom metal to accept AI mags. It will go on a .308 instead. Up in the air on the irons though, I have honestly never had a need for BUIS on a hunting rifle, but if I find a very unobtrusive setup I may do it.

Back on topic, with a little work, one could come pretty darn close to what the Canadian Rangers have, and have such a fine all around piece that a lot of other rifles would end up getting pretty dusty in the safe(s).

[GJM]

I emailed Beretta USA about the Canada Ranger rifle. Their response just arrived:




Okie John


Taking a a T3 lite, and dropping it into a laminate stock, adding bottom metal that accepts mags of your choice (AI or Sako), and irons will get you pretty close.

Just yesterday, I robbed my custom 6mm Rem T3 of its green laminate stock, and shipped it off to CDI precision for some bottom metal to accept AI mags. It will go on a .308 instead. Up in the air on the irons though, I have honestly never had a need for BUIS on a hunting rifle, but if I find a very unobtrusive setup I may do it.

Back on topic, with a little work, one could come pretty darn close to what the Canadian Rangers have, and have such a fine all around piece that a lot of other rifles would end up getting pretty dusty in the safe(s).

No surprise on Beretta CS. I probably would have asked them a few questions, though, to see how sharp they were. Starting with what do the initials "EL" stand for. If no joy, a "___ front sight would make the Centurion really desirable." Still no joy, do you know there is a Presidential election this year?

[okie john]

No surprise on Beretta CS. I probably would have asked them a few questions, though, to see how sharp they were. Starting with what do the initials "EL" stand for. If no joy, a "___ front sight would make the Centurion really desirable." Still no joy, do you know there is a Presidential election this year?

Excellent point, but I see no need to to argue with someone who doesn't understand the situation. Ultimately, BUSA doesn't make that call--Sako does, and I'm willing to wait.


Okie John

[GJM]

Following up on Lost River's post, how do you design a rifle equivalent or better than the Sako Ranger, using a Tikka action -- what bits and pieces?

[okie john]

Following up on Lost River's post, how do you design a rifle equivalent or better than the Sako Ranger, using a Tikka action -- what bits and pieces?

Tikka action with integral 1913 rail
CTR bottom metal that takes cheaper, more widely available magazines
Sporter-weight barrel in caliber of choice, but probably 308
Iron sights as on the Canada Ranger rifle
Folding stock with M4-type adjustment for LOP
Three sling attachment points


Okie John

[Dave Williams]

I'm sure Jim Brockman could make a copy. $$$$$

[SteveB]

Following up on Lost River's post, how do you design a rifle equivalent or better than the Sako Ranger, using a Tikka action -- what bits and pieces?

I guess it depends on how close you want to come to that rifle. It seems to be a Tikka CTR with iron sights, laminated stock, 2-stage trigger; that's going to be HEAVY. I bet that's close to 10 lbs without a scope.

If you want a laminated stock, stainless T3 with iron sights and a 10-round DBM, you could start with this:

http://www.tikka.fi/rifles/tikka-t3x/t3x-laminated-stainless#

And this:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/115197/cdi-precision-trigger-guard-for-aics-detachable-box-magazine-tikka-t3-short-action

Have Brockman cut the barrel to 20", install iron sights, cut the LOP, install the CDI bottom metal and a 3rd sling swivel stud. Probably be ready by SHOT 2018.

If it doesn't have to be stainless, you could start with this one:

http://www.tikka.fi/rifles/tikka-t3x/t3x-battue-lite

And put it in a laminated stock:

http://www.berettausa.com/en-us/tikka-t3-laminated-stock/s241g611/

And so on.

[Dagga Boy]

Because I already have as "Scout" as a Scout can get, I will likely be building a general purpose bolt gun soon. I am thinking something very close to this.

[John Hearne]

It is a good example of how well red dots work for zapping dynamic targets when run right.

Shooting running feral hogs is an awesome demonstration of the value of an Aimpoint. I've done work, especially in failing light that I could never pull off with irons.

At the main range I use, I have a moving target with two 8" round plates mounted on the carrier. Whenever someone talks about how they can do just as well with irons, I put them on the mover. Nobody wants to give up their Aimpoint after that demonstration. The point really gets hammered home when you run the same drill in dim or with an WML.

[John Hearne]

Warning: Utterly Gauche Post

For me, the best general purpose rifle is an 18"-ish 308 with a conventionally mounted low power variable.

I suspect that the Thunder Ranch Edition of the Mossberg MVP (to get an 18" barrel) with a Meopta 1-4 scope would do anything you can reasonably ask a CONUS rifle to do. The Mossberg is a bit heavier than I would like and a more svelte stock might fix that issue. I really like its use of either AR or M-14 magazines as it eliminates the need to load from stripper clips.

I've run the Meopta 1-4 at carbine matches and it is almost as good as an Aimpoint up close but the magnification make the just over 300 yard shot easy. I haven't kept up with the LPV world but anything 1-4 or 1-6 with a daylight visible reticle would work adequately.

Most folks would be better served with the cheaper rifle and spending the money on ammo to practice.

[okie john]

Most folks would be better served with the cheaper rifle and spending the money on ammo to practice.

Thread killer.


Okie John

[SteveB]

Warning: Utterly Gauche Post

For me, the best general purpose rifle is an 18"-ish 308 with a conventionally mounted low power variable.

I suspect that the Thunder Ranch Edition of the Mossberg MVP (to get an 18" barrel) with a Meopta 1-4 scope would do anything you can reasonably ask a CONUS rifle to do. The Mossberg is a bit heavier than I would like and a more svelte stock might fix that issue. I really like its use of either AR or M-14 magazines as it eliminates the need to load from stripper clips.

I've run the Meopta 1-4 at carbine matches and it is almost as good as an Aimpoint up close but the magnification make the just over 300 yard shot easy. I haven't kept up with the LPV world but anything 1-4 or 1-6 with a daylight visible reticle would work adequately.

Most folks would be better served with the cheaper rifle and spending the money on ammo to practice.

John, can you run the MVP bolt hard? Apparently, the MVP bolt design incorporates a spring-loaded dingus that picks up the round from the mag. I guess this is necessary because the AR mag sits so low in the receiver. Is that system durable?

[John Hearne]

John, can you run the MVP bolt hard? Apparently, the MVP bolt design incorporates a spring-loaded dingus that picks up the round from the mag. I guess this is necessary because the AR mag sits so low in the receiver. Is that system durable?

The "dingus" is a Mossberg patented feature that allows them to use double column rifle magazines. This is why Ruger is stuck using the AI based magazines.

Regarding durability, I simply do not know. I'm just speculated but bolt action rifles seem to be fairly simple. I suspect that if Mossberg can build a rifle that shoots around 1 moa, it's durable enough. (IIRC, Savage had to upgrade their bolt stop to the magnum version on their earliest renditions of the Scout to hold up to hard working of the action so anything is possible)

We can start a Gofundme page to find out. :) My idea so I've got dibs. Let the donations flow for guns and ammo, I'll even throw in the scope.

[GJM]

John, doesn't the base rifle weigh 7.5 pounds?

[Duelist]

Taking a a T3 lite, and dropping it into a laminate stock, adding bottom metal that accepts mags of your choice (AI or Sako), and irons will get you pretty close.

Just yesterday, I robbed my custom 6mm Rem T3 of its green laminate stock, and shipped it off to CDI precision for some bottom metal to accept AI mags. It will go on a .308 instead. Up in the air on the irons though, I have honestly never had a need for BUIS on a hunting rifle, but if I find a very unobtrusive setup I may do it.

Back on topic, with a little work, one could come pretty darn close to what the Canadian Rangers have, and have such a fine all around piece that a lot of other rifles would end up getting pretty dusty in the safe(s).

I have needed BUIS on a rifle one time. I discovered it is bad form to slide down a Rocky Mountain while pursuing elk. Worse form is to use your rifle as a skid while sliding down the rock infested hill. Worse still is to use your father-in-law's rifle as said skid. Worse yet, is to discover at the bottom that rocks and telescopic sights are not friends under such circumstances, and the objective bell may, in fact, be permanently damaged (gouged/bent) by such mistreatment.

Having irons on that rifle meant I could use the QD amounts to rip the rings off the bases, throw the poor scope in my bag, and keep hunting, without even going back to camp to get a spare rifle.

[elsquid]

I emailed Beretta USA about the Canada Ranger rifle. Their response just arrived:

Thank you for contacting Beretta Customer Support.
There are no plans at present to introduce this rifle to the U.S. market by SAKO, as it was a special order item by the Canadian government.

Okie John

That's not what Sako said at Shot this year:

9669

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/01/21/shot-2016-c-19-canadian-ranger-rifle-will-come-us/


Well, at the 2016 SHOT Show, I asked Sako’s product manager that question, and he responded that they are absolutely going to bring the C-19 Canadian Ranger Rifle to the US. The American version will be just slightly different, as the Canadian Rangers will not allow Sako to put their crest on the stock of the guns, but he did say that they are considering selling the rifles both standalone, and “as issued” with a hard case, spare magazine, and other accessories.

< shrug >

-- Michael

[John Hearne]

John, doesn't the base rifle weigh 7.5 pounds?

Yep, it starts at 7.5 lbs before you load it with bb's or mount an optic. That's 0.3 lbs less than the current Savage offering and 0.4 lb more than the Ruger offering. Cutting weight costs money. The MVP sets an enticing entry point for someone interested in exploring this area. You could develop as a shooter for a long time before you outgrew the Mossberg offering.

It's been a number of years but I seem to recall a discussion about a Randy Cain rifle class. As the sun was setting, the shooters stayed on the line until they could no longer see the target through their scope. The first guys off the line were the ones running forward mounted scopes as the distance creates all kinds of light transmission issues. I'm not big on the LPV for carbines but think they are the perfect match for a handy bolt gun.

[okie john]

That's not what Sako said at Shot this year:

9669

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/01/21/shot-2016-c-19-canadian-ranger-rifle-will-come-us/


Well, at the 2016 SHOT Show, I asked Sako’s product manager that question, and he responded that they are absolutely going to bring the C-19 Canadian Ranger Rifle to the US. The American version will be just slightly different, as the Canadian Rangers will not allow Sako to put their crest on the stock of the guns, but he did say that they are considering selling the rifles both standalone, and “as issued” with a hard case, spare magazine, and other accessories.

I had seen that.

I assume that the decision will be made at levels far above that of a Sako Product Manager or a BUSA Customer Service rep. Time will tell.


Okie John

[That Guy]

My opinion is that the ideal practical rifle has conventional scope bases for a receiver-mounted scope, as well as a forward base for mounting an RDS.

For you rich Americans, perhaps. :p But I can't afford to keep multiple optics per rifle - I'm looking for the one do-it-all solution, myself. I think that rules out red dots, as having no magnification limits how far one can see.

But what's a good scope to have? It would need to be low weight, durable, with a usable magnification range for everything (And of course, the nominal and the actual magnification ranges are not always at all the same thing...), preferably have a reticle more useful than just a plain duplex... And, since I am not one of you rich Americans, the damn thing should not cost an arm and a leg either. Kind of a tall order, in other words.

So the real question becomes, what is the best compromise out there. And that is really something I do not have nearly enough knowledge on different scopes to have a good answer.

[GJM]

Yep, it starts at 7.5 lbs before you load it with bb's or mount an optic. That's 0.3 lbs less than the current Savage offering and 0.4 lb more than the Ruger offering. Cutting weight costs money. The MVP sets an enticing entry point for someone interested in exploring this area. You could develop as a shooter for a long time before you outgrew the Mossberg offering.

It's been a number of years but I seem to recall a discussion about a Randy Cain rifle class. As the sun was setting, the shooters stayed on the line until they could no longer see the target through their scope. The first guys off the line were the ones running forward mounted scopes as the distance creates all kinds of light transmission issues. I'm not big on the LPV for carbines but think they are the perfect match for a handy bolt gun.

Those US rifles (Savage, Ruger and Mossberg) are all heavy pigs compared to the Tikka sporter rifles.

I have done that drill in a Randy Cain class and your recollection is correct. The scout scope is great in bright sunshine with Arizona style minimal vegetation. I have one target area with steel at 200, 300 and 400 yards, where the scout scope works in the morning sun but is unusable on those same targets in the afternoon. A 1-something scope is definitely the way to go.

[Inkwell 41]

The solution to those savages is Warthogs, lots of Warthogs....

So, something like "Civilize them with a Blaser"?

[Lost River]

While it may not be aesthetically pleasing, a simple way to do things may be this:

Take a 20" Tikka T3 Lite Compact.

Get an MDT LSS Chassis.

They may be ugly (to me) but they are light (compared to most chassis systems), take AI mags, and you can get some very light AR-15 accessories to cut the weight down.

Bolt it up (no gunsmithing).

Then stick on an optic of optic of your choosing and call it done


The iron sights is still up in the air.

With an M1913 rail over the receiver, a shooter could mount a folding BUIS right behind the optic, same as on AR, but I have not researched what is available for unobtrusive front sights.

[SteveB]

For you rich Americans, perhaps. :p But I can't afford to keep multiple optics per rifle - I'm looking for the one do-it-all solution, myself. I think that rules out red dots, as having no magnification limits how far one can see.

But what's a good scope to have? It would need to be low weight, durable, with a usable magnification range for everything (And of course, the nominal and the actual magnification ranges are not always at all the same thing...), preferably have a reticle more useful than just a plain duplex... And, since I am not one of you rich Americans, the damn thing should not cost an arm and a leg either. Kind of a tall order, in other words.

So the real question becomes, what is the best compromise out there. And that is really something I do not have nearly enough knowledge on different scopes to have a good answer.

What is your budget for this optic(USD)?

[GJM]

While it may not be aesthetically pleasing, a simple way to do things may be this:

Take a 20" Tikka T3 Lite Compact.

Get an MDT LSS Chassis.

They may be ugly (to me) but they are light (compared to most chassis systems), take AI mags, and you can get some very light AR-15 accessories to cut the weight down.

Bolt it up (no gunsmithing).

Then stick on an optic of optic of your choosing and call it done


The iron sights is still up in the air.

With an M1913 rail over the receiver, a shooter could mount a folding BUIS right behind the optic, same as on AR, but I have not researched what is available for unobtrusive front sights.

Sounds interesting. Any idea how much weight this chassis adds in weight by the time you have the various bits and pieces on?

[okie john]

For you rich Americans, perhaps. :p But I can't afford to keep multiple optics per rifle - I'm looking for the one do-it-all solution, myself. I think that rules out red dots, as having no magnification limits how far one can see.

But what's a good scope to have? It would need to be low weight, durable, with a usable magnification range for everything (And of course, the nominal and the actual magnification ranges are not always at all the same thing...), preferably have a reticle more useful than just a plain duplex... And, since I am not one of you rich Americans, the damn thing should not cost an arm and a leg either. Kind of a tall order, in other words.

So the real question becomes, what is the best compromise out there. And that is really something I do not have nearly enough knowledge on different scopes to have a good answer.

It’s hard to beat a good low-power variable, but there are a few questions:

What rifle and cartridge are you using?
What will you do with it?
What’s your budget?



Okie John

[Lost River]

Sounds interesting. Any idea how much weight this chassis adds in weight by the time you have the various bits and pieces on?

No idea, but I bet with the right bits and pieces it could be quite reasonable. In fact, with an 18" tube, and a 2" or so muzzle brake, I bet it would be down right handy. It may not be pleasing to the eye, to traditionalists, but I bet it would grow on a person with field use. Kind of like 1911s grew on guys who were used to Peacemakers.. :)

[Lost River]

I like the fact that this guy does not blather on much:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVvrUBSiPag

[okie john]

I like the fact that this guy does not blather on much:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVvrUBSiPag

That's one of the best narration tracks I've heard on any shooting-related video.


Okie John

[coldcase1984]

LR, it looks skinny in that verbose video. Any idea of what that combo would weigh all up w a 20 oz. scope?

Disregard just cognated your earlier text.

[GJM]

LR, clear some PM space.

[rob_s]

For those discussing/recommending the Mossberg, does anyone have any hands-on range time with one? In what context? How many rounds of what type? Impressions?

[That Guy]

It’s hard to beat a good low-power variable, but there are a few questions:

What rifle and cartridge are you using?
What will you do with it?
What’s your budget?



Okie John

Rifle is a Ruger Scout .308 (and my wallet really prefers rounds with 147/150 grain bullets...).

Mostly just range use. But the Scout rifle is supposed to be the one true rifle, suitable for most tasks you'd need a rifle for... I kind of want to stay with that ideology.

No set budget. I'll try to carve out the necessary amount out of my tax returns or something. I'm trying to keep the price low, BUT without ending up with a piece of junk.

[Lost River]

LR, clear some PM space.

Roger that

[rob_s]

I keep coming back to the idea that it shouldn't be this hard to get a .308 bolt-action with the following:
1) controlled-round feed
2) 18" threaded barrel
3) <7 lbs
4) iron sights
5) open loading port (i.e. able to top up single rounds from the top)
6) < $1k (<$750 even better) MSRP

[JM Campbell]

I keep coming back to the idea that it shouldn't be this hard to get a .308 bolt-action with the following:
1) controlled-round feed
2) 18" threaded barrel
3) <7 lbs
4) iron sights
5) open loading port (i.e. able to top up single rounds from the top)
6) < $1k (<$750 even better) MSRP
Will this meet your criteria?

https://www.preciseshooter.com/blog/IntroToSavage10.aspx

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[SteveB]

Will this meet your criteria?

https://www.preciseshooter.com/blog/IntroToSavage10.aspx

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

His first required feature is controlled-round feed. Isn't the Savage a push feed action?

[SteveB]

Rifle is a Ruger Scout .308 (and my wallet really prefers rounds with 147/150 grain bullets...).

Mostly just range use. But the Scout rifle is supposed to be the one true rifle, suitable for most tasks you'd need a rifle for... I kind of want to stay with that ideology.

No set budget. I'll try to carve out the necessary amount out of my tax returns or something. I'm trying to keep the price low, BUT without ending up with a piece of junk.

Check out this:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/536569/leupold-vx-r-rifle-scope-30mm-tube-2-7x-33mm-1-10-mil-adjustments-illuminated-firedot-4-reticle-matte

It's a lot of scope for the money, excellent size/weight and you can get a custom elevation dial for your load from the Leupold Custom Shop.

[okie john]

Check out this:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/536569/leupold-vx-r-rifle-scope-30mm-tube-2-7x-33mm-1-10-mil-adjustments-illuminated-firedot-4-reticle-matte

It's a lot of scope for the money, excellent size/weight and you can get a custom elevation dial for your load from the Leupold Custom Shop.

That's an excellent choice, just like any other Leupold LPV.


Okie John

[That Guy]

I keep coming back to the idea that it shouldn't be this hard to get a .308 bolt-action with the following:
1) controlled-round feed
2) 18" threaded barrel
3) <7 lbs
4) iron sights
5) open loading port (i.e. able to top up single rounds from the top)
6) < $1k (<$750 even better) MSRP

A Ruger Scout with the new polymer stock might fulfil all the criteria except price. (Not sure they make the 18" version with the synthetic stock at the moment though.) Assuming the shooter is not left-handed, that is... :/


Check out this:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/536569/leupold-vx-r-rifle-scope-30mm-tube-2-7x-33mm-1-10-mil-adjustments-illuminated-firedot-4-reticle-matte

It's a lot of scope for the money, excellent size/weight and you can get a custom elevation dial for your load from the Leupold Custom Shop.

Leupold Custom Shop does not accept orders from outside the USA, so that leaves the reticle a bit... meh. Love the weight, mil-based adjustments and the fact you can get an illuminated aiming point at that weight, though. Thank you for the tip.

[Lost River]

Tony,

How important is the illuminated reticle?

[rob_s]

Will this meet your criteria?

https://www.preciseshooter.com/blog/IntroToSavage10.aspx

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


His first required feature is controlled-round feed. Isn't the Savage a push feed action?

This is correct. In spite of that, I've still been tempted by this
http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/11HOGHUNTER



A Ruger Scout with the new polymer stock might fulfil all the criteria except price. (Not sure they make the 18" version with the synthetic stock at the moment though.) Assuming the shooter is not left-handed, that is... :/

I've considered it, but the fact that I have to have either a conventional scope or the irons bothers me. I'd like to be able to simply pop off the optic and use the irons. I'd probably even just accept the 16" barrel if I could keep the rear iron and mount the conventional optic.

[GJM]

Discussing this with SteveB, it sure seems like the chassis stocks add a substantial amount of weight. Do the Tikka stocks suck, or is there an argument that the chassis style stocks shoot that much better to justify the cost and weight?

Jim Brockman continues to make progress with my .06. It is bedded, in the stock and waiting for a pad and paint.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsaexcfszv.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsaexcfszv.jpeg.html)

[That Guy]

If you remove the rail, you *may* be able to mount the rear sight to where the rail was attached. At least I seem to recall reading someone doing so. No idea how usable the rear sight would be in that configuration, though. Moving it forward can't help.

Tony,

How important is the illuminated reticle?
Well... I've managed this far without. It would be nice, but I don't know if I would call it absolutely necessary. Daylight bright is absolutely not a requirement.

[GJM]

http://www.kimberamerica.com/hunter

Lightweight 6.5 Creedmore


Sent from my iPad

[Dagga Boy]

Typical Brockman is looking great. Now, don't get all caught up in your rifle and forget my Micro mount...:p

[Duelist]

This is correct. In spite of that, I've still been tempted by this
http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/11HOGHUNTER


I've considered it, but the fact that I have to have either a conventional scope or the irons bothers me. I'd like to be able to simply pop off the optic and use the irons. I'd probably even just accept the 16" barrel if I could keep the rear iron and mount the conventional optic.

HOg Hunter is interesting. Especially in the three calibers it's offered in - each has its attractions.

[Lester Polfus]

I've considered it, but the fact that I have to have either a conventional scope or the irons bothers me. I'd like to be able to simply pop off the optic and use the irons. I'd probably even just accept the 16" barrel if I could keep the rear iron and mount the conventional optic.

Have you seen this (https://www.xssights.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=993608&CAT=8286)? Don't own one so I can't vouch for it. It would add $100 to the price of the rifle, but looks like it would get you there.

There is a bunch of discussion on the Hill People Gear forum about how Ruger won't make the 18" version with a poly stock. At first they were going to offer the poly stock as a separate item, then they weren't. I don't recall how that one landed.

[Lost River]

Discussing this with SteveB, it sure seems like the chassis stocks add a substantial amount of weight. Do the Tikka stocks suck, or is there an argument that the chassis style stocks shoot that much better to justify the cost and weight?

Jim Brockman continues to make progress with my .06. It is bedded, in the stock and waiting for a pad and paint.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsaexcfszv.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsaexcfszv.jpeg.html)

The factory plastic Tikka stock is fine for non magnum cartridges in my experience. When you get above 30-06 class cartridges, into the magnums, the way the recoil lug is molded into the stock,it can sometimes cause issues. Bedding the stock properly, and/or replacing the barrel lug with a heavy duty aftermarket lug pretty much always takes care of any issues.

The wood stocks on rifles are fine normally, but the primary attraction of composite stocks is that you never have to worry about them swelling from moisture. An added bonus of the chassis type systems is that they are easily adjustable/configurable by the end user. The fact that a person does not need to be delayed by trips, or the expense of the gunsmith is rather appealing to many (I believe).

[Lost River]

Well... I've managed this far without. It would be nice, but I don't know if I would call it absolutely necessary. Daylight bright is absolutely not a requirement.

A guy could do very well with a fixed 6 power like a Weaver K6. It does not say "Tactical" on it, and most of the tactical crowd would be clueless about the K series these days, but they are pretty solid pieces of rifle glass.

Zero it @ 200 yards and take a morning at the range to know your hold under/over out to 400 or so, and you would be pretty solid for 99% of anything a guy could be expected to do with a bolt action.

[JAD]

http://www.kimberamerica.com/hunter

Lightweight 6.5 Creedmore


Sent from my iPad

Beautiful. Cut and crowned to 18 it would probably make weight with a really light optic.