Scout rifle, circa 2016

[JM Campbell]

Came across this today. I'm not sure if already posted.

Tikka T3x TAC A1 chassis 6.5 creedmore

http://m.basspro.com/Tikka-T3x-TAC-A1-BoltAction-Rifle/product/100017899/

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170609/be797fe9c6e9a857a8d7e7cc5c6d47cb.pnghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170609/c3c06559c1acfc508466a03245eae102.pnghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170609/fb3b65be68fe35f7d626d55d56dcb7d3.png


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[Paul D]

Wow. 11.2 lbs without optics....not very Scout like.

[Wyoming Shooter]

A close friend, and excellent shooter, loves his new Barrett Fieldcraft https://barrett.net/firearms/fieldcraft/. I'm considering selling my Ruger GSR and applying the proceeds to the Barrett Fieldcraft. If you have personal experience with the Fieldcraft, I'd like your feedback. Best, ELN.

[GJM]

Wow. 11.2 lbs without optics....not very Scout like.

Apparently they shoot amazingly well. Obviously not a competitor to traditional scout rifles, but in the Ruger Precision rifle category.


A close friend, and excellent shooter, loves his new Barrett Fieldcraft https://barrett.net/firearms/fieldcraft/. I'm considering selling my Ruger GSR and applying the proceeds to the Barrett Fieldcraft. If you have personal experience with the Fieldcraft, I'd like your feedback. Best, ELN.

No experience with this one, although a fair amount of experience with lightweight, good shooting bolt guns. What is it about this particular rifle, given all the choices in this segment, that excites you?

[Wyoming Shooter]

Apparently they shoot amazingly well. Obviously not a competitor to traditional scout rifles, but in the Ruger Precision rifle category.



No experience with this one, although a fair amount of experience with lightweight, good shooting bolt guns. What is it about this particular rifle, given all the choices in this segment, that excites you?

Hi George - I'm intrigued by the combination of light weight, reports of excellent accuracy, and a very competitive price point. Few rifles seem to deliver all. Did I mention it's available in 6.5 Creed? Best, ELN.

[okie john]

Hi George - I'm intrigued by the combination of light weight, reports of excellent accuracy, and a very competitive price point. Few rifles seem to deliver all. Did I mention it's available in 6.5 Creed? Best, ELN.

A Tikka T3x Lite is a bit heavier, but it's about 1/3 of the price of a Barrett Fieldcraft. Not sure if it's available in 6.5 Creed, but it is available in 308, 6.5 Swede, and a ton of other great cartridges.


Okie John

[Wyoming Shooter]

A Tikka T3x Lite is a bit heavier, but it's about 1/3 of the price of a Barrett Fieldcraft. Not sure if it's available in 6.5 Creed, but it is available in 308, 6.5 Swede, and a ton of other great cartridges.


Okie John

Yes sir. I have a Tikka T3X compact lite in .308. It's a sweet rifle and great value. Best, ELN.

[SteveB]

What about Kimber, which has a few models available in 6.5CM; Hunter, Open Country, Mountain Ascent & Adirondack?

[Lost River]

What about Kimber, which has a few models available in 6.5CM; Hunter, Open Country, Mountain Ascent & Adirondack?

My dad bought a Kimber Hunter earlier this year with his Cabelas reward points, in 6.5 CM. He has been struggling to get it to shoot any handload into anything acceptable for hunting.

Very pretty rifle cosmetically, but that does not mean much, if it won't shoot. This is not the first time I have heard of this and some have dubbed it the Kimber Roulette. Either you get a dog, or you get a great shooter. Spin the wheel....

I know he is wishing he would have picked up another Tikka.

[Lost River]

Came across this today. I'm not sure if already posted.

Tikka T3x TAC A1 chassis 6.5 creedmore

http://m.basspro.com/Tikka-T3x-TAC-A1-BoltAction-Rifle/product/100017899/

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170609/be797fe9c6e9a857a8d7e7cc5c6d47cb.pnghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170609/c3c06559c1acfc508466a03245eae102.pnghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170609/fb3b65be68fe35f7d626d55d56dcb7d3.png


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That would be an outstanding long range target rifle, with its 24" medium/heavy barrel on it, and certainly a fun shooter.

That said, it is in a different category than scout/practical rifles (in my opinion).

It would however certainly compliment a 20" barrel, 7# 6.5 Creed practical rifle, especially if a guy found a load that shot well in both. That would be a great pair of rifles.

[JM Campbell]

That would be an outstanding long range target rifle, with its 24" medium/heavy barrel on it, and certainly a fun shooter.

That said, it is in a different category than scout/practical rifles (in my opinion).

It would however certainly compliment a 20" barrel, 7# 6.5 Creed practical rifle, especially if a guy found a load that shot well in both. That would be a great pair of rifles.

Correct, I selected the wrong thread to put this rifle in.


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[Lost River]

Correct, I selected the wrong thread to put this rifle in.


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No worries friend :)

It is a dang nice rifle!

10 years ago it would have cost probably double that to put something similar together. We are living in awesome times in terms of firearms advancements.

[JM Campbell]

No worries friend :)

It is a dang nice rifle!

10 years ago it would have cost probably double that to put something similar together. We are living in awesome times in terms of firearms advancements.

I agree and wish I had the disposable funds to grab one up. Fits the bill of what I want.


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[Wyoming Shooter]

My dad bought a Kimber Hunter earlier this year with his Cabelas reward points, in 6.5 CM. He has been struggling to get it to shoot any handload into anything acceptable for hunting.

Very pretty rifle cosmetically, but that does not mean much, if it won't shoot. This is not the first time I have heard of this and some have dubbed it the Kimber Roulette. Either you get a dog, or you get a great shooter. Spin the wheel....

I know he is wishing he would have picked up another Tikka.

My experience has been similar. I have a Kimber Montana in 300 WSM that is an excellent shooter. A good friend has been repeatedly frustrated in his attempts to get acceptable accuracy. "Kimber roulette" is unfortunately apropos.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

I'm going to get a custom Barrett Fieldcraft with a forward scope mount to be my first foray into Scout Rifle territory. It'll definitely make the weight requirement!


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[GJM]

As someone shooting scout rifles since before 1991, when my wife and I attended Gunsite 270 with Col. Cooper, and has a pile of them, I am curious as to the appeal of the IER scope, other than for heavy rifles and long guns where a conventional scope won't work, given all the awesome 1-X variable scopes available today?

[Lost River]

The IER/scout scopes have absolutely zero appeal to me.

[Lester Polfus]

The appeal is: That's what Jeff Cooper used, so that's what is supposed to be on a scout.

That isn't a slam on Cooper, I think at the time he developed all this stuff, he was using the best technologies available to him at the time.

Optics technologies have progressed to the point that I don't think there are any optical advantages to the scout scope that out weigh the disadvantages. That leaves:

1) Ease of use of stripper clips. Personally, I find the DBM bottom metal I installed on my rifle preferable to stripper clips.

2) It's easier to mount a quality ghost ring back up sight if the scope is on a scout mount. My grandfather was of an age with Cooper, and greatly distrusted optical sights, as back then they failed much more frequently. Variable scopes failed even more frequently than fixed scopes. So having a quick transitions to irons was arguably more important then.

Nowadays, I think you're installing a less than optimum optical sight so you can optimize your backup iron sights. Seems sort of backwards.

[okie john]

OK, so for years, I've believed that you could get decent 30-06 ammo almost anywhere that people hunt, which makes the 30-06 a superb (possibly even morally superior) choice for the general-purpose rifle. But yesterday I ran into a situation that made me question that belief.

On the way to a pig hunt in northern California, I stopped at the In-and-Out Market in Palo Cedro, CA, to buy a hunting license. I always check ammo in little roadside stores, and this place had easily the weirdest inventory I’ve ever seen in one place, to wit:

1 box of 225 Winchester (never seen this in the wild)
1 box of S&B 5.6x52R (Euro name for the 22 Savage Hi-Power, had to Google it)
6 boxes of fresh Federal 25-06
6-8 boxes of Federal 7x57 Mauser 175 RN
10 boxes of fresh Federal 7mm Winchester Short Magnum
6-8 boxes of fresh Federal 7mm Remington Magnum
6-8 boxes of fresh Federal & Fiocchi 308 Winchester
3 boxes of fresh PPU 303 British
1 box of Hornady 32 Special
2 boxes of Federal 338 Winchester Magnum 250-grain Woodleigh
1 box of 358 Winchester 200-grain PPT
2 boxes of 375 RUM
3 boxes of Hornady 450 Marlin

They had plenty of service pistol ammo, rimfire, 7.62x36, 5.56 NATO, and assorted 12-gauge but only ONE, count ‘em ONE box of 30-06. To add insult to injury, this box was American Eagle 147-grain FMJ. There was not a softpoint 30-06 cartridge in the place.

My guide later told me that this place used to have an FFL but gave it up after state laws became too onerous, which explains a lot. As noted, some of the ammo was fresh so that's probably what people use most of the time. The rest must have been NOS. In this area, that makes a certain amount of sense given that you’re probably either shooting pigs inside of 150 yards or blacktail-mule-deer hybrids at fairly long range, but it’s still jarring to see the 30-06 so under-represented. Seems almost unpatriotic...

So I stand corrected on the whole “30-06 wins at logistics” thing.


Okie John

[fatdog]

So I stand corrected on the whole “30-06 wins at logistics” thing.


I find that list of what they had extremely odd because I would include .270 and .30-30 on my list of "you can find it anywhere" and they are missing as well....

[okie john]

I find that list of what they had extremely odd because I would include .270 and .30-30 on my list of "you can find it anywhere" and they are missing as well....

Yep. Also no .243 or 300 WM. Odd to say the least.


Okie John

[Lex Luthier]

OK, so for years, I've believed that you could get decent 30-06 ammo almost anywhere that people hunt, which makes the 30-06 a superb (possibly even morally superior) choice for the general-purpose rifle. But yesterday I ran into a situation that made me question that belief.

On the way to a pig hunt in northern California, I stopped at the In-and-Out Market in Palo Cedro, CA, to buy a hunting license. I always check ammo in little roadside stores, and this place had easily the weirdest inventory I’ve ever seen in one place, to wit:

1 box of 225 Winchester (never seen this in the wild)
1 box of S&B 5.6x52R (Euro name for the 22 Savage Hi-Power, had to Google it)
6 boxes of fresh Federal 25-06
6-8 boxes of Federal 7x57 Mauser 175 RN
10 boxes of fresh Federal 7mm Winchester Short Magnum
6-8 boxes of fresh Federal 7mm Remington Magnum
6-8 boxes of fresh Federal & Fiocchi 308 Winchester
3 boxes of fresh PPU 303 British
1 box of Hornady 32 Special
2 boxes of Federal 338 Winchester Magnum 250-grain Woodleigh
1 box of 358 Winchester 200-grain PPT
2 boxes of 375 RUM
3 boxes of Hornady 450 Marlin

They had plenty of service pistol ammo, rimfire, 7.62x36, 5.56 NATO, and assorted 12-gauge but only ONE, count ‘em ONE box of 30-06. To add insult to injury, this box was American Eagle 147-grain FMJ. There was not a softpoint 30-06 cartridge in the place.

My guide later told me that this place used to have an FFL but gave it up after state laws became too onerous, which explains a lot. As noted, some of the ammo was fresh so that's probably what people use most of the time. The rest must have been NOS. In this area, that makes a certain amount of sense given that you’re probably either shooting pigs inside of 150 yards or blacktail-mule-deer hybrids at fairly long range, but it’s still jarring to see the 30-06 so under-represented. Seems almost unpatriotic...

So I stand corrected on the whole “30-06 wins at logistics” thing.


Okie John

That sounds like Bruno's gas station store in Gerlach, NV after the first two Burning Man events; all of a sudden they were carrying weird calibers to the exclusion of the stuff the locals liked to use...
Makes me wonder if the locals in Palo Cedro like oddball guns.

[okie john]

That sounds like Bruno's gas station store in Gerlach, NV after the first two Burning Man events; all of a sudden they were carrying weird calibers to the exclusion of the stuff the locals liked to use...
Makes me wonder if the locals in Palo Cedro like oddball guns.

Yeah, someone out there has interesting taste in guns. I'd love to hear the reasoning behind stocking the Federal Premium 338 WM with 250-grain Woodleigh Weldcores.


Okie John

[AlwaysLearning]

As someone shooting scout rifles since before 1991, when my wife and I attended Gunsite 270 with Col. Cooper, and has a pile of them, I am curious as to the appeal of the IER scope, other than for heavy rifles and long guns where a conventional scope won't work, given all the awesome 1-X variable scopes available today?

I've only used an IER scope once (on a Steyr I borrowed) and I found the pickup much faster than with a fixed 2x mounted conventionally on an M-70. Didn't time it though. I really liked the Steyr on a square range but I'm told by folks around here that the Tikka CTR is a better option?

[45dotACP]

I've only used an IER scope once (on a Steyr I borrowed) and I found the pickup much faster than with a fixed 2x mounted conventionally on an M-70. Didn't time it though. I really liked the Steyr on a square range but I'm told by folks around here that the Tikka CTR is a better option?
Lets preface this...I'm not a great rifle shooter by any stretch.

I recently fired a Tikka T3 CTR the first time in my life...it produced a no-shit 1/2 MOA group at 100 yards with a Prime Ammunition's 6.5 creedmoor match grade ammo. It's owner took it out to 600 yards and was ringing a man sized steel plate every shot. He let me run a few rounds through it and again...being not a high power rifle shooter at all, I rang it 3/4 times.

This rifle was totally factory stock with a Vortex Razor Gen 1 on it.

I think there is no better rifle for the money...and probably very few better for even more money. Again though...I'm not in the know on rifles. Maybe there's a better deal?

But that was the illest rifle I've ever shot.

A Tikka in .308 with a 1-8x LPV is probably hard to beat in terms of a do-all bolt gun.



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[okie john]

Lets preface this...I'm not a great rifle shooter by any stretch.

I recently fired a Tikka T3 CTR the first time in my life...it produced a no-shit 1/2 MOA group at 100 yards with a Prime Ammunition's 6.5 creedmoor match grade ammo. It's owner took it out to 600 yards and was ringing a man sized steel plate every shot. He let me run a few rounds through it and again...being not a high power rifle shooter at all, I rang it 3/4 times.

This rifle was totally factory stock with a Vortex Razor Gen 1 on it.

I think there is no better rifle for the money...and probably very few better for even more money. Again though...I'm not in the know on rifles. Maybe there's a better deal?

But that was the illest rifle I've ever shot.

A Tikka in .308 with a 1-8x LPV is probably hard to beat in terms of a do-all bolt gun.

I see your point, but you have to bear in mind that you're talking apples and oranges. The CTR is a precision rifle. It weighs a pound more than a Steyr Scout without optics, and optics are a huge part of the general-purpose rifle equation.


Okie John

[45dotACP]

Very true. Precision rifle vs scout rifle is a very different set of considerations. I liked Chris's take on the concept though.

In the meantime, I've been meaning to perform some butchery to my K31 to scout it up....

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[Yute]

My Mini-Scout (5.56 Ruger GSR) is no where near as capable as an AR, but darn if it isn't fun.

https://i.imgur.com/p8qi11r.jpg

[AlwaysLearning]

I see your point, but you have to bear in mind that you're talking apples and oranges. The CTR is a precision rifle. It weighs a pound more than a Steyr Scout without optics, and optics are a huge part of the general-purpose rifle equation.


Okie John

What I liked about the Steyr was that it fit me well after I played with the spacers, and the balance of the weapon meant it felt more like a shotgun. If I get a chance to borrow it again, I'll certainly try it with the conventional rings and see how that goes. Given that I am often in states with severe restrictions on semi-automatic rifles, I like the idea of a bolt gun that I can run like a carbine, and the Steyr seems to be that weapon. Also liked the safety arrangements and the way the bolt worked, and the sling setup. I'd be curious how it would run with an Aimpoint in a conventional mount. It's my understanding that people have had problems with the IER scope in dawn/dusk conditions?

[OlongJohnson]

I see your point, but you have to bear in mind that you're talking apples and oranges. The CTR is a precision rifle. It weighs a pound more than a Steyr Scout without optics, and optics are a huge part of the general-purpose rifle equation.


Okie John

Tikka T3 Lites have a reputation for shooting that way, too. 6.3 lb or so before scope, with a 22-in barrel. Chop it four inches if you want lighter.

[okie john]

The Canadian ranger Sako CTR is intriguing. I like the iron sights and the 20" barrel. Drop that bitch in a Manners stock with some low power glass and it might work.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/tikka-rifles/tikka-t3x-artic-308.cfm?gun_id=100912317

I have no interest in this deal, just giving a heads-up.


Okie John

[RoyGBiv]

^^^^ Drool.

http://images.gunsinternational.com/listings_sub/acc_9139/gi_100912317/Tikka-T3x-Artic-308_100912317_9139_970F00454F6639B5.JPG

[littlejerry]

I really, really wish those CTR mags didn't cost an arm and a leg.

[JPedersen]

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/tikka-rifles/tikka-t3x-artic-308.cfm?gun_id=100912317

I have no interest in this deal, just giving a heads-up.


Okie John

That is my local shop - and they are great to work with if anyone is interested. I have no formal affiliation with them ... but thought I would share.


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[Sigfan26]

I came VERY close to giving the go ahead to a Canadian exporter for one of the CZ Ranger rifles...


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[peterb]

Just saw this: In the October Field & Stream, the Remington Custom Shop M7 Scout was the most accurate sporting rifle in their recent test. .308, 19" barrel, 6lbs 3 oz.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/18-best-new-rifles-2017-ranked-and-reviewed#page-2

[Trukinjp13]

Just saw this: In the October Field & Stream, the Remington Custom Shop M7 Scout was the most accurate sporting rifle in their recent test. .308, 19" barrel, 6lbs 3 oz.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/18-best-new-rifles-2017-ranked-and-reviewed#page-2

3,500$ I would hope it was good!


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[GJM]

Just saw this: In the October Field & Stream, the Remington Custom Shop M7 Scout was the most accurate sporting rifle in their recent test. .308, 19" barrel, 6lbs 3 oz.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/18-best-new-rifles-2017-ranked-and-reviewed#page-2

Not impressed. Tier two parts for a premium price.

[psalms144.1]

Kinda hard to take F&S seriously when their "best of test" AR variant is a Bushmaster. I get it, folks like cheap guns, but, ffs, Bushmaster?

[SteveB]

Just saw this: In the October Field & Stream, the Remington Custom Shop M7 Scout was the most accurate sporting rifle in their recent test. .308, 19" barrel, 6lbs 3 oz.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/18-best-new-rifles-2017-ranked-and-reviewed#page-2

For that price, you can have a bespoke rifle built to your exact specs.

20487

[okie john]

Kinda hard to take F&S seriously when their "best of test" AR variant is a Bushmaster. I get it, folks like cheap guns, but, ffs, Bushmaster?

Not that I take F&S seriously, but I'd like to see how these rankings map to ad spend for each of the makers involved.


Okie John

[Inkwell 41]

For that price, you can have a bespoke rifle built to your exact specs.

20487

God forgive me. I greatly covet that rifle.

[Hambo]

God forgive me. I greatly covet that rifle.

Me too. Who built that?

[Lester Polfus]

Me too. Who built that?

I'd bet you a P-F dollar it's a Brockman.

[SteveB]

OK, so maybe his prices have gone up a bit. Still worth every penny.

http://www.brockmansrifles.com/index.php/bolt-action-rifles/brockman-premier-practical-rifle

[Lester Polfus]

OK, so maybe his prices have gone up a bit. Still worth every penny.

http://www.brockmansrifles.com/index.php/bolt-action-rifles/brockman-premier-practical-rifle

I'd spend the $4500 on a Brockman, but not the $3500 on a Remington Custom shop.

[okie john]

OK, so it looks like Freedom Group (Remington, Bushmaster) is well represented. Savage, Mossberg, and Weatherby/Howa all have multiple winners in multiple categories.

Are these guys aware that Sako and Tikka also make rifles?


Okie John

[LOKNLOD]

OK, so it looks like Freedom Group (Remington, Bushmaster) is well represented. Savage, Mossberg, and Weatherby/Howa all have multiple winners in multiple categories.

Are these guys aware that Sako and Tikka also make rifles?


Okie John

*scanning through pile of checks on the marketing desk*

Umm, nope, never heard of 'em.

[OlongJohnson]

Sako/Tikka is owned and imported by Beretta. Should be some marketing bucks moving around.

[okie john]

It's frustrating – Tikka had a couple of nice looking Battue rifles that never made here to the states (as far as I could figure out).

Here's one that made it: http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/tikka-rifles/tikka-t3-battue-light-30-06-new-call-for-best-price.cfm?gun_id=100931676


Okie John

[rob_s]

Maybe this is the new scout base rifle...

It has all the right features except caliber.

https://www.realguns.com/articles/957.htm/

[45dotACP]

Maybe this is the new scout base rifle...

It has all the right features except caliber.

https://www.realguns.com/articles/957.htm/Had the chance to shoot one of those once.

No lie, it was pretty cool. We'd been shooting bowling pins at a friend's house and that rifle just seemed to break them to pieces.

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[peterb]

Maybe this is the new scout base rifle...

It has all the right features except caliber.

https://www.realguns.com/articles/957.htm/

Hmmm.....a quick glance at an ammunition table shows it in the 30-30 neighborhood at the muzzle with 180gr loads, and the option to go heavier. Given that and the available bullets, it'll never shoot as flat as modern rifle calibers, but it is a nice compact package.

[OlongJohnson]

If I remember right, lots of people have had trouble getting accuracy on par for hunting rifles out of pistol-caliber Rugers.

[Matt C.]

Here's one that made it: http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/tikka-rifles/tikka-t3-battue-light-30-06-new-call-for-best-price.cfm?gun_id=100931676


Okie JohnEuroOptic has a .308 available.
Holding out for a 9.3.

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[Mr. Goodtimes]

What’s going on with the T3X Arctic? When it is going to actually hit shelves?


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[okie john]

Here's an Arctic: http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/tikka-rifles/tikka-t3x-artic-308.cfm?gun_id=100912317


Okie John

[JodyH]

What’s going on with the T3X Arctic? When it is going to actually hit shelves?
Get on the Euro Optic (https://www.eurooptic.com/Tikka-T3x-Arctic-308-Win.aspx) waiting list.
I've had multiple opportunities to buy one from them, just haven't done it yet.
I just can't convince myself the nice iron sights and 10 round capacity are worth ditching my Steyr for the Tikka for the role I use a Scout rifle in.

[Mr. Goodtimes]

Here's an Arctic: http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/tikka-rifles/tikka-t3x-artic-308.cfm?gun_id=100912317


Okie John





Get on the Euro Optic (https://www.eurooptic.com/Tikka-T3x-Arctic-308-Win.aspx) waiting list.
I've had multiple opportunities to buy one from them, just haven't done it yet.
I just can't convince myself the nice iron sights and 10 round capacity are worth ditching my Steyr for the Tikka for the role I use a Scout rifle in.

Thanks guys, I didn’t realize they were already available. It’s always show out of stock for me at euro optic and google was no luck for me. Google took me to some Canadian dealers. Knowing they’re available, I’ll be picking one of these up as soon as funds permit. If I would have known this sooner I would have held off on some other purchases in leu of this.


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[jellydonut]

Problem with the Arctic is the use of ridiculously expensive proprietary Tikka magazines.

I was going for their CTR which uses the same mags, but decided to buy a cheaper T3 model and an AICS-compatible chassis, and ended up actually making a less expensive setup when you count the magazines.

[JodyH]

Problem with the Arctic is the use of ridiculously expensive proprietary Tikka magazines.

I was going for their CTR which uses the same mags, but decided to buy a cheaper T3 model and an AICS-compatible chassis, and ended up actually making a less expensive setup when you count the magazines.
I'm used to H&K MR762 magazine prices... Tikka and Steyr Scout mag prices don't scare me. LOL
On something like a scout rifle, spare mag costs don't factor much into my decision.
At most I'll end up buying one or two spares.

[Malamute]

Do any of the bolt 308 magazines take stripper guides like M-14 magazines do?

[Mr. Goodtimes]

Problem with the Arctic is the use of ridiculously expensive proprietary Tikka magazines.

I was going for their CTR which uses the same mags, but decided to buy a cheaper T3 model and an AICS-compatible chassis, and ended up actually making a less expensive setup when you count the magazines.

I’d certainly prefer cheaper mags but, given that this will mostly be a hunting rifle, I don’t see my self having more than a few magazines.


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[Trigger]

Problem with the Arctic is the use of ridiculously expensive proprietary Tikka magazines.

I was going for their CTR which uses the same mags, but decided to buy a cheaper T3 model and an AICS-compatible chassis, and ended up actually making a less expensive setup when you count the magazines.

I know it might be heresy to say so, but I think the Sako TRG and Tikka CTR magazine design is superior to that of the AI. I have rifles that use both designs: the Sako feeds better, allows a longer OAL, and holds 10 in the same size the AI holds 5.

I have restocked all my TRGs and my CTR, so the magazines are now interchangeable amongst both rifles. This means I can use CTR mags at $75 a pop versus the TRG at $160. I feel $75 per magazine is acceptable for the quality you receive. Price is roughly the same as a metal AI magazine.

For the price, I feel the CTR makes the best scout rifle. It is a very accurate rifle, the CTR bottom metal is a good design, and the rifle has a good trigger in addition to good magazines. The weak point is the plastic stock, and I addressed that by restocking the rifle in a laminated wood stock. For those interested, KRG just introduced a synthetic CTR stock, which is more reasonably priced than the high-end Manners and McMillan offerings.

[jellydonut]

I know it might be heresy to say so, but I think the Sako TRG and Tikka CTR magazine design is superior to that of the AI. I have rifles that use both designs: the Sako feeds better, allows a longer OAL, and holds 10 in the same size the AI holds 5.

I have restocked all my TRGs and my CTR, so the magazines are now interchangeable amongst both rifles. This means I can use CTR mags at $75 a pop versus the TRG at $160. I feel $75 per magazine is acceptable for the quality you receive. Price is roughly the same as a metal AI magazine.

For the price, I feel the CTR makes the best scout rifle. It is a very accurate rifle, the CTR bottom metal is a good design, and the rifle has a good trigger in addition to good magazines. The weak point is the plastic stock, and I addressed that by restocking the rifle in a laminated wood stock. For those interested, KRG just introduced a synthetic CTR stock, which is more reasonably priced than the high-end Manners and McMillan offerings.

The KRG Bravo stock is the one I ordered instead of buying an actual CTR. And I'm sure you're right about the mags, but I was trying to put together a budget precision rifle, so getting a T3, the Bravo, and some Magpul AICS mags was the best compromise I could get together.

[Trigger]

The KRG Bravo stock is the one I ordered instead of buying an actual CTR. And I'm sure you're right about the mags, but I was trying to put together a budget precision rifle, so getting a T3, the Bravo, and some Magpul AICS mags was the best compromise I could get together.

I think Whitaker’s Guns has Tikka CTRs for around $850. https://shop.whittakerguns.com/product/ss-6662

Just an option, but it sounds like you already have your rifle.

[Rex G]

Must get myself a Tikka, or three. I do wish more models were available with left-hand actions.

[jellydonut]

The KRG Bravo stock is the one I ordered instead of buying an actual CTR. And I'm sure you're right about the mags, but I was trying to put together a budget precision rifle, so getting a T3, the Bravo, and some Magpul AICS mags was the best compromise I could get together.

PSA: don't be this idiot. It turns out Magpul AICS mags aren't compatible with Tikka actions. So much for my 'research'..

[Failure2Stop]

Somebody please talk me out of this.
https://www.eurooptic.com/JRTXC382-Tikka-Tikka-T3x-CTR-65-Creedmoor-200--barrel-MPN-JR.aspx
Because I am super close to pulling the trigger.

[RoyGBiv]

Somebody please talk me out of this.
https://www.eurooptic.com/JRTXC382-Tikka-Tikka-T3x-CTR-65-Creedmoor-200--barrel-MPN-JR.aspx
Because I am super close to pulling the trigger.

https://shop.whittakerguns.com/product/ss-8091241
$100 less and in stainless

The blued is out of stock but it's even less at $799
https://shop.whittakerguns.com/product/ss-5598042

[Failure2Stop]

https://shop.whittakerguns.com/product/ss-8091241
$100 less and in stainless

The blued is out of stock but it's even less at $799
https://shop.whittakerguns.com/product/ss-5598042

This is the opposite of my request, sir.

[RoyGBiv]

This is the opposite of my request, sir.

Sorry. Guilty.
I'm hoping you buy the last one so I can't.

[Grey]

Sorry. Guilty.
I'm hoping you buy the last one so I can't.

Going to need 6 friends to go with him... 7 in stock...

[Trigger]

https://shop.whittakerguns.com/product/ss-8091241
$100 less and in stainless

The blued is out of stock but it's even less at $799
https://shop.whittakerguns.com/product/ss-5598042

Enabler. I like it.

[fatdog]

Somebody please talk me out of this.
https://www.eurooptic.com/JRTXC382-Tikka-Tikka-T3x-CTR-65-Creedmoor-200--barrel-MPN-JR.aspx
Because I am super close to pulling the trigger.

To do my best to be your enabler...this was from my last trip to the range with my CTR 6.5CR, the gun you linked to, I only have a $600 Vortex HS-T (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/368904/vortex-optics-viper-hs-t-rifle-scope-30mm-tube-6-24x-50mm-side-focus-vmr-1-moa-reticle-matte) on it, shooting regular Hornady BTHP not the ballistic tips, 1000 yards from the bench, 3=7 mph cross wind that day, swirling, even with my blind shaky ass pulling the trigger on top of a sandbag...11 for 12, the rifle will do it. My only mod to the rifle was to change the rail to a 20moa version.

22143

[OlongJohnson]

Allow me to pile on: Whittaker is one of the best shops in the country, IMO. The GM of the store is an all-around great guy, and a total gun/hunting nut. He's active on 24HourCampfire and will respond to emails and PMs. I've never received or heard of better service than they provide.

[okie john]

Somebody please talk me out of this.
https://www.eurooptic.com/JRTXC382-Tikka-Tikka-T3x-CTR-65-Creedmoor-200--barrel-MPN-JR.aspx
Because I am super close to pulling the trigger.

I'll be heavy.

Sorry, that's the best I can do.


Okie John

[okie john]

Allow me to pile on: Whittaker is one of the best shops in the country, IMO. The GM of the store is an all-around great guy, and a total gun/hunting nut. He's active on 24HourCampfire and will respond to emails and PMs. I've never received or heard of better service than they provide.

These guys got Tikka to build a special run of 1:8 twist T3x's in .22-250 for the campfire guys.


Okie John

[Rex G]

Sigh. I really should stop clicking on links to Tikkas, until after my budget stabilizes after retirement, next year. Plus, I still hope Tikka expands the models it makes in lefty configuration.

[PNWTO]

Bumping just to add a neat little write-up I saw for a custom GP rifle.

An uberlight .358 Win Kimber @ 4.5 lbs field-ready. (http://www.rokslide.com/uberlight-kimber-rifle-build/)

[Matt C.]

Bumping just to add a neat little write-up I saw for a custom GP rifle.

An uberlight .358 Win Kimber @ 4.5 lbs field-ready. (http://www.rokslide.com/uberlight-kimber-rifle-build/)Love the .358 Win.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[Lester Polfus]

Bumping just to add a neat little write-up I saw for a custom GP rifle.

An uberlight .358 Win Kimber @ 4.5 lbs field-ready. (http://www.rokslide.com/uberlight-kimber-rifle-build/)

Funny you should mention that. I was just coming over here to post a link to that.

I don't think I'd want to shoot a 4.5lb .358 Win mag very much, but I'd sure like carrying it around. That's only a pound more than my Marlin Papoose!

[peterb]

I don't think I'd want to shoot a 4.5lb .358 Win mag very much, but I'd sure like carrying it around.

It's not a magnum -- it's a necked-up .308.

[Lester Polfus]

It's not a magnum -- it's a necked-up .308.

Right. That was mistyping on my part. Still...

[JHC]

Love the .358 Win.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

I think it would be neat to see that cartridge experience a resurgence in popularity.

[Lester Polfus]

I think it would be neat to see that cartridge experience a resurgence in popularity.

Me too. I've considered sending a .308 off to JES to be rebored to .358. I may actually do it with a Henry Single shot. I'd have a 22" barreled .358 Winchester that would be shorter than my 20" lever action .30-30. Top it off with a 1-4x scope and I'd have a short, light handy elk rifle for hunting in the thick timber we have here.

[okie john]

It's not a magnum -- it's a necked-up .308.

In a 4.5# rifle, it will have certain magnum characteristics.


Okie John

[Rex G]

I just acquired the Browning forward-mount scope base for the barreled portion of my BLR Takedown. I do not yet have a scout scope, but figured I had better buy a mount before the spotty availability becomes unavailability. I could be up-and-running within days, with an Aimpoint Micro T-1, but am yet not sure I want to temporarily commit one of my Micros, only to remove it when I can buy a scout scope, around March. On the other hand, maybe I would want to leave a T-1 on this rifle, long-term, anyway, and then buy myself another Aimpoint Micro, or similar optic, in a few months.

[fatdog]

I got a back in stock notice today for the Tikka Artic,

https://www.eurooptic.com//Tikka-T3x-Arctic-308-Win.aspx?utm_source=back-in-stock-notification&utm_medium=email

I am not seeing the $1,848.00 of value here, but interesting none the less....

[StraitR]

So I've taken the last few days and read this thread from the beginning. I really like the concept of the practical rifle, and I don't have anything bigger than .223/5.56 in the safe currently. The "practical rifle" as discussed here pretty much covers everything for me. It seems most speak highly of Tikka, and some say it is the "Glock" of rifles, so I've been looking through their offerings in 308.

My only hangup is that the rifle MUST be threaded for suppressor use. I shoot suppressed 100% of the time, when possible. Upstream I read that Beretta has stated cutting/threading a barrel would void warranty and accuracy guarantee. There is also the question of sufficient barrel thickness for cutting/threading the Lite Compact version.

My preference would be buy a rifle and start shooting without modification. I prefer to leave guns mechanically stock. This leaves me with one Tikka T3x choice, and that's the CTR, but it's 1.5lbs heavier than the Lite Compact. Is this just something I'll have to live with if I want a factory threaded barrel?

I'm a bolt gun newbie, and will be using this to explore bolt guns and do some skill building. Additionally, I will use it for hunting deer/hogs/coyotes with friends (who also hunt suppressed).

TL;DR.... Threaded barrel is a must have. Thoughts on the 7.4 pound T3x CTR with LPVO as a do-it-all practical rifle? Other option would be a Ruger American Predator w/ AICS pattern mags at 6.2 pounds. In short, is the Tikka worth the 1.2ish pound weight penalty?

ETA: I have felt both rifles, and I greatly prefer the overall feel of the T3x CTR as they are stock, but the weight and handling difference is noticeable. That said, the only CTR I have access to is a 24" 6.5cm which is 7.9lbs, a half pound heavier and 4" longer than the 20" 308 version.

ETA2: The more I think about this, the more a Ruger American Predator in a Magpul Hunter stock is sounding better (read lighter, shorter and cheaper), at least to figure out what I don't know about bolt rifles. The readily available and lower cost AICS pattern PMAG's are a plus, too.

[okie john]

I wouldn't let the warranty issue hold me back because it's not like they're actually going to honor it.

You can return a defective firearm to most gun makers with a clear description of the problem and they'll usually either blame it on you or fire 2-3 shots, fail to duplicate the problem, and return it with a note saying that it's within factory specs. When they do try to fix it, they usually get it wrong and you end up sending it back several times. There will be little or no documentation of what they did or tried, and you probably won't get to talk to the same person more than once if you try to call them. Each trip can take months, and you can easily spend more on shipping than the gun is worth. You'll hear this story over and over on gun forums. 99% of the time it's cheaper and faster to sort out problems on your own.

I've owned a T3 Lite in 308 and a T3x Lite in 30-06. I can't say for sure, but I believe there's enough meat in those barrels to be threaded safely, especially if you cut them to 18-20".

Buy a T3 Lite, double up your ear pro, and shoot it for a while without the can. Bolt guns are pretty simple and problems in a new one tend to show up right away. Then you can play warranty roulette if you want. If nothing is wrong, then have it cut and threaded, and enjoy it.


Okie John

[StraitR]

Thanks for your input John. I do agree about the use of warranties, especially trying to challenge any kind of "accuracy guarantees". Frankly, I'm less worried about the warranty than I am about having enough barrel diameter to cut/thread and safely mount a suppressor. I would direct thread SiCo Omega.

I see that @LGChris (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=12550) had his Lite Compact cut from 20" to 16.5" and threaded or use with a suppressor, but I've not seen him using a can, nor mentioning it's use here or in his excellent videos. I also can't find anyone else cutting the T3/T3x Lite barrels back and using suppressors. This gives me pause about doing it.

ETA: I get the high praise for Tikka's here, but I would buy the lighter Ruger American Predator/Magpul Hunter stock combo before going without the suppressor.

[LGChris]

I see that @LGChris (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=12550) had his Lite Compact cut from 20" to 16.5" and threaded or use with a suppressor, but I've not seen him using a can, nor mentioning it's use here or in his excellent videos. I also can't find anyone else cutting the T3/T3x Lite barrels back and using suppressors. This gives me pause about doing it.


I had every intention of buying a SilencerCo Omega to go on that T3x, but I haven't gotten around to it. I have a SilencerCo Specwar and it is ridiculously heavy, especially on that rifle, but the few rounds I've fired with that combo have been without issue.

I don't know if I can recommend threading the T3x Lite the way I did. I had a local gunsmith do it and he seemed to think it would be okay as long as I wasn't planning to use a direct thread can that would be repeatedly removed and reattached. There is not much barrel diameter there, though. I don't know enough about that sort of thing to be able to say it's a good idea.

Otherwise, I'm very happy with that rifle. I think Tikka is offering the best value for dollar in the bolt action field rifle category.

[StraitR]

Thank you for chiming in LGChris. When I look at your barrel (zoomed in as best I can on a Mac), and I get the same impression about the barrel diameter being suspect for a direct thread can. I suppose this is why I don't find it being done widely on the Lite barrels.

I suppose I could attach a QD muzzle device for my can, but that just adds weight (weight of muzzle device + ASR fast attach mount in suppressor) at the worst possible place, which is at the end of the barrel.

Do you have any thoughts on the T3x CTR as a practical/general purpose bolt gun for someone wanting to run 100% suppressed.

[jellydonut]

T3 Lite barrels are fine to thread for cans. The M14 thread is a dimension commonly used, it is what I have.

Personally I want a heavier barrel now because I ended up wanting to get into long range shooting instead of using the Tikka as a general purpose rifle with an LPVO, but if that's what you want to do the Lite should serve you well.

If you think you might want to get into long range shooting instead, the CTR would be a safer bet. A caliber with less drop and wind factor like 6.5 Creedmoor or 7mm-08 would also be a thought.

[StraitR]

T3 Lite barrels are fine to thread for cans. The M14 thread is a dimension commonly used, it is what I have.

Personally I want a heavier barrel now because I ended up wanting to get into long range shooting instead of using the Tikka as a general purpose rifle with an LPVO, but if that's what you want to do the Lite should serve you well.

If you think you might want to get into long range shooting instead, the CTR would be a safer bet. A caliber with less drop and wind factor like 6.5 Creedmoor or 7mm-08 would also be a thought.


I'm not familiar with the M14 thread, but my SiCo Omega uses 5/8x24 for both direct thread and muzzle devices.

This will be my one and only bolt action, used for everything one would use a bolt action for, so there will definitely be compromises. I know I want to shoot it, and shoot it a lot if I have my way. In other words, this will be my learning rifle. I've been shooting AR's for 20 years, and frankly, I've lost interest.

I've previously owned exactly one centerfire bolt gun, a Browning A-Bolt II in 308, and only shot it a handful of times (still have a bunch of premium 308 left in the safe). Ironically, I put Trijicon TR24r 1-4 on the A-Bolt and liked it a lot. It was ok to shoot, but it wasn't something I'd want to shoot for extended sessions while skill building or just having fun. I want to say that A-Bolt II Stalker weighed about 6.6 pounds without optic or sling, so the 7.5 pound CTR doesn't seem like much of a stretch, and the delta is potentially a good thing.

I'm sure a lighter (1.5 pounds lighter) would make for a better practical rifle, especially to cover large open spaces on foot or tackle considerable elevation gains/losses, but none of that is my reality here in Florida anyway. I'll likely do 95% shooting (static) to 5% non-static hunting regardless. My current AR set up for general purpose is a 16" Noveske Light Recce with 13" Geissele rail, Vortex Razor Gen II-E in Badger mount, SF Scout, and VTAC sling, and it weighs in at 9.4 pounds without the can and just over 10 pounds with it. It doesn't strike me as excessive for my uses. I'd imagine when it's all said and done, the CTR would actually weigh a bit less than that. Hmm, I might have just figured this out.

ETA: Maybe "practical rifle" is inaccurate, in that I may not be trying to fill that role specifically, so much as I am a general purpose bolt gun (if there's even a difference). Or maybe it is, but I'm having to deal with the added weight of the larger diameter barrel as a tradeoff for the benefit of using a suppressor.

[Lost River]

Thank you for chiming in LGChris. When I look at your barrel (zoomed in as best I can on a Mac), and I get the same impression about the barrel diameter being suspect for a direct thread can. I suppose this is why I don't find it being done widely on the Lite barrels.

I suppose I could attach a QD muzzle device for my can, but that just adds weight (weight of muzzle device + ASR fast attach mount in suppressor) at the worst possible place, which is at the end of the barrel.

Do you have any thoughts on the T3x CTR as a practical/general purpose bolt gun for someone wanting to run 100% suppressed.


No worries about the threading issue.


This T3 Lite .308 was cut back to 20"s and threaded:

My daughters:

http://i.imgur.com/9H5ShJX.jpg (https://imgur.com/9H5ShJX)

Same story with mine:


http://i.imgur.com/jG2d2zI.jpg (https://imgur.com/jG2d2zI)

[Lost River]

There is slightly less metal externally on the .300wm (this one was not cut back), and there was still sufficient metal to have it threaded.



http://i.imgur.com/rRrngUq.jpg (https://imgur.com/rRrngUq)

http://i.imgur.com/Jz57ScZ.jpg (https://imgur.com/Jz57ScZ)

[StraitR]

Thanks Lost River. That gives me something to consider. Had some of our friends over for dinner tonight, and my buddy is now talking about cutting a 1000y range on his property for us to shoot. The lane is cut, just needs to bush hog it. That completely changes things for me and this rifle purchase. I know 6.5cm would make things easier out past 500, but I'm thinking I may learn more with the 308? Learning is a huge part of this purchase. Probably a subject for a different thread.

[fatdog]

Just a data point on the Tikkas. I think the CTR is heavy enough that it takes it out of the weight ranges for the original subject, the scout rifle, for me. Mine is in 6.5CR and it is practically cheating it is so easy to get hits at 1000 yards. For some reason I get better groups with just a comp in place instead of my YHM can, so I rarely zero it and shoot it suppressed.

My "scout concept" was the T3 light in .30-06 some pages back and I did not thread it. The gunsmith locally who I trust to do such things said it was possible, but after taking some measurements he wanted to cut it back to 20" if we undertook that threading operation.

[StraitR]

Thanks fatdog. I'm coming to the same conclusion, in which I'm not really after a true "practical rifle" as it's been defined here. I've also just been given the opportunity to shoot out to 1000y regularly, which is not possible here outside of private property or a 3 hour drive. Lack of accessibility to long range shooting facilities is why I've never bothered getting into the precision game. This opportunity changes things for me, as far as opening up a caliber debate, so I'm now reading up on the benefits of 6.5 creedmoor vs 308. What a rabbit hole that is.

Did you get the 20" or 24" CTR in 6.5 creedmoor?

[Lost River]

One thing to bear in mind when talking about Tikkas (The modern T3 variant at least) and long range is that they are all built on long actions. People will start talking about how the 6.5 creed is far superior than the .308, but that is really from a limited perspective. When you are shooting factory ammo and speaking in generalities, the 6.5 Creed does offer better downrange performance for target shooting.

However for a handloader you can really educate some people. Take a .308 top it with a 208 Amax or a 212 ELD X and you have a whole other animal. Plus another very simple trick is to swap your 308 magazine for a 30-06 magazine, and long load your 308, so you are not hampered by the box magazines internal dimensions.



Example:

The factory G1 BC of the .308 212 ELD is .673

The factory G1 BC of the .308 210 Sierra MK is .645



Their (Hornady's) very best 6.5 mm projectile is only .625

A Sierra Matchking from a Creedmoor is only going to get you in the low .6s


Yes you have to reload. The other tradeoff is that there will be more recoil with the .308 loads. However with a muzzle brake, this really is not a big deal to most.


As someone who own both a 6.5 and a 308 ( my 6.5 is a 260 Rem ) I have found the 308 to be a better all around cartridge (for my needs).

For a guy who just wants to buy of the shelf ammo though, the Creedmoor has a lot of things going right for it.


One thing to add, a friend this last weekend gave me a box of the new Gold Medal Match .308 ammo. It is loaded with Bergers 185 grain Juggernaught bullet at 2600 FPS and has a G1 of .555. For factory .308 ammo thats pretty impressive. I shot this stuff last year at a demo shoot but not in my own gun, so I am really looking forward to seeing how it does in Tikkas and a Sako TRG.

Personally I would much rather hit my target with a heavier bullet than a lighter one. :cool:


For a guy who just wants one rifle, I would still recommend a .308 over a 6.5. The ability to load projectiles suitable for varmints all the way up to the biggest bears as well as do some long range target shooting, with proper handloading, makes it a solid choice.

CHEERS

[okie john]

One thing to add, a friend this last weekend gave me a box of the new Gold Medal Match .308 ammo. It is loaded with Bergers 185 grain Juggernaught bullet at 2600 FPS and has a G1 of .555. For factory .308 ammo thats pretty impressive.

A lot of 180-grain factory 30-06 ammo only goes that fast, and some of it is even slower: Federal's 180-grain Partition load gave 2,551 fps in a 22" Husqvarna (1:12 twist) and 2,583 fps in a 24" FN with (1:10 twist).


Okie John

[nycnoob]

Lost River,

Why are you quoting G1 BC? Is this just out of habits of a lifetime?

It is my understanding that when talking about longer projectiles and longer distances,
the G7 BC numbers are more stable over a wide range of projectile velocities and are more
useful for comparing projectiles and developing ballistics charts.

Of course I have no experience with this. I just read the Litz books and took his seminar
So my knowledge is all theoretical.

[Lost River]

Lost River,

Why are you quoting G1 BC? Is this just out of habits of a lifetime?

It is my understanding that when talking about longer projectiles and longer distances,
the G7 BC numbers are more stable over a wide range of projectile velocities and are more
useful for comparing projectiles and developing ballistics charts.

Of course I have no experience with this. I just read the Litz books and took his seminar
So my knowledge is all theoretical.


You are 100% spot on.

I am always willing to adapt to pick up new skill sets but for the nature of what I do, it works for me. I have not been nearly as active doing long range shooting like I was even just 10 years ago, and I have not kept up. LOTS of things have advanced considerably in that time frame due to PRS and technology, etc.

Without question Litz is the subject matter expert, and I myself would love to sit in on a couple of his classes and update myself on what is happening on the cutting edge of the science. It is truly amazing what guys can do now with traditional cartridges like the 30-06 and 7mm Rem Mag that 20 years ago many would have thought impossible.

[nycnoob]

Lost River,

If you get a chance to take the Litz course, it is just great, though it is all class room lecture
and some discussion break out sessions. There were lots of heavy hitters in the audiance
(army marksmanship team, operators, F-class competitors, really serious hobbyists). The
facilities were nice (its a religious retreat) though they had a no guns allowed policy. However
the lectures were mostly from the books, if you read the books you are getting at least 80%
of the class.

[Lost River]

A lot of 180-grain factory 30-06 ammo only goes that fast, and some of it is even slower: Federal's 180-grain Partition load gave 2,551 fps in a 22" Husqvarna (1:12 twist) and 2,583 fps in a 24" FN with (1:10 twist).


Okie John


Okie John,

Again if a guy is a handloader, he could make a strong argument for the 30-06. I shoot .308 and .300wm as my 2 primary hunting cartridges for big game but really with a properly set up rifle that allowed you to not be limited by internal dimensions of many box mags, a guy could easily make a case for shooting the 30-06 for everything. I am sure you have read what Shane aka Montana Marine has done with his 30-06s, taking them to a mile and sometimes beyond. The old 30-06 has never had it so good as it does now, but again it requires handloading due to all the anemic factory ammo out there.

That 24" barreled FN could be lots of fun. I have seriously considered building a long barreled -06 more than a few times, but I don't feel like I shoot the big guns that I have right now nearly enough to justify building another long range gun. Heck I have a .300WM chassis gun that still needs load development done on it and I don't think thats going to happen this year.

[okie john]

Okie John,

Again if a guy is a handloader, he could make a strong argument for the 30-06. I shoot .308 and .300wm as my 2 primary hunting cartridges for big game but really with a properly set up rifle that allowed you to not be limited by internal dimensions of many box mags, a guy could easily make a case for shooting the 30-06 for everything. I am sure you have read what Shane aka Montana Marine has done with his 30-06s, taking them to a mile and sometimes beyond. The old 30-06 has never had it so good as it does now, but again it requires handloading due to all the anemic factory ammo out there.

That 24" barreled FN could be lots of fun. I have seriously considered building a long barreled -06 more than a few times, but I don't feel like I shoot the big guns that I have right now nearly enough to justify building another long range gun. Heck I have a .300WM chassis gun that still needs load development done on it and I don't think thats going to happen this year.

I agree 100% on the 30-06’s potential with handloads. My loading gear is in storage at the moment, but that will change early next year. I’ve gotten a couple of mine up to 2,750 fps with 180-grain Partitions and several powders, and could probably go faster with newer powders. That’s about like a 300 H&H or WM factory load of 15-20 years ago. The funny thing is that Teddy Roosevelt started the 30-06’s reputation when he shot up a bunch of African plains game with 150-grain FMJs at 2,700 fps in 1909. That’s a mild 308 load these days.

Shane is doing good work. I’d love to do some of the same, but a 200-yard range is a rarity in western Washington and I’d have to drive several hours to a place where I could practice that far out and remember how to read wind.

The FN was a grail rifle for me. I found one that someone had “ruined” by glass bedding the action, free floating the barrel, and working the factory trigger to perfection. It put Winchester’s cheap 180-grain Power Point load into 1 MOA, but it pours rain around here during hunting season and I felt guilty about taking it out.

http://i.imgur.com/EVi6Bmf.jpg?2 (https://imgur.com/EVi6Bmf)

A few months ago, I upgraded to a stainless 24” 30-06 Model 70 Classic in a Bansner stock that I rescued from a pawn shop.

http://i.imgur.com/dZOweem.jpg?2 (https://imgur.com/dZOweem)

Not nearly as elegant, but I don’t have to worry about getting it wet.

Good to see you back, amigo.


Okie John

[Lost River]

I agree 100% on the 30-06’s potential with handloads. My loading gear is in storage at the moment, but that will change early next year. I’ve gotten a couple of mine up to 2,750 fps with 180-grain Partitions and several powders, and could probably go faster with newer powders. That’s about like a 300 H&H or WM factory load of 15-20 years ago. The funny thing is that Teddy Roosevelt started the 30-06’s reputation when he shot up a bunch of African plains game with 150-grain FMJs at 2,700 fps in 1909. That’s a mild 308 load these days.

Shane is doing good work. I’d love to do some of the same, but a 200-yard range is a rarity in western Washington and I’d have to drive several hours to a place where I could practice that far out and remember how to read wind.

The FN was a grail rifle for me. I found one that someone had “ruined” by glass bedding the action, free floating the barrel, and working the factory trigger to perfection. It put Winchester’s cheap 180-grain Power Point load into 1 MOA, but it pours rain around here during hunting season and I felt guilty about taking it out.

http://i.imgur.com/EVi6Bmf.jpg?2 (https://imgur.com/EVi6Bmf)

A few months ago, I upgraded to a stainless 24” 30-06 Model 70 Classic in a Bansner stock that I rescued from a pawn shop.

http://i.imgur.com/dZOweem.jpg?2 (https://imgur.com/dZOweem)

Not nearly as elegant, but I don’t have to worry about getting it wet.

Good to see you back, amigo.


Okie John


Those two are smoking nice -06s!

That Winchester in the Bansner would be a perfect Cascades rifle (I would imagine).

I have an old JC Higgins FN Mauser that I recently put in a laminate stock. I really like the rifle, it needs to get finished up with a bedding, free floating and some proper glass on it. I am leaning towards a fixed 10X SWFA. Out here in the wild west, it works. On the wet side of the Cascades, I would probably go with a fixed 6X, depending on exactly where I hunted primarily.


For S&Gs I temporarily stuck my daughters fixed 6X on the FN Mauser to get an idea of proportions. It seemed to be a good match, but I figured the 10X makes more sense for my type of shooting.


http://i.imgur.com/JGX93c0.jpg (https://imgur.com/JGX93c0)

[okie john]

Those two are smoking nice -06s!

That Winchester in the Bansner would be a perfect Cascades rifle (I would imagine).

I have an old JC Higgins FN Mauser that I recently put in a laminate stock. I really like the rifle, it needs to get finished up with a bedding, free floating and some proper glass on it. I am leaning towards a fixed 10X SWFA. Out here in the wild west, it works. On the wet side of the Cascades, I would probably go with a fixed 6X, depending on exactly where I hunted primarily.


For S&Gs I temporarily stuck my daughters fixed 6X on the FN Mauser to get an idea of proportions. It seemed to be a good match, but I figured the 10X makes more sense for my type of shooting.


http://i.imgur.com/JGX93c0.jpg (https://imgur.com/JGX93c0)

Thanks for the kind words.

The Winchester may be the perfect Cascades rifle. I wrote the specs for it based on Allen Day’s posts on another forum, and added the illuminated reticle after my Roosevelt elk hunt a couple of years ago. I expected to drop serious coin to get it, but I got it for the proverbial song. I'd like to find or build another one in 338 WM.

The Higgins Mausers are also excellent Cascade rifles because they have chrome-lined bores. I’ve owned several and all were tackdrivers. I may add another one after things in my personal life settle down. Is that a Boyd’s stock? How does it balance? 99% of my shots in the last 15-20 years have been offhand because I hunt in the brush, so I’m all about balance.

This pic doesn’t do the FN justice. The wood has end-to-end tiger striping that doesn’t show up in images. It would be my first choice if I ever had to go hunting in a tuxedo.


Okie John

[StraitR]

Personally I would much rather hit my target with a heavier bullet than a lighter one. :cool:


For a guy who just wants one rifle, I would still recommend a .308 over a 6.5. The ability to load projectiles suitable for varmints all the way up to the biggest bears as well as do some long range target shooting, with proper handloading, makes it a solid choice.

CHEERS

Agreed, all around. In an effort to not get too far into the weeds on caliber selection, I limited my time spent researching. It didn't take long to figure out that 6.5cm would be a superior choice for a person whose primary focus is precision shooting out to the supersonic/transonic limitations of their caliber. While I'd like to explore that for fun and learning purposes, it's pretty much last on the list of my priorities, with the top two being increasing fundamental marksmanship skills and taking small to medium sized game. The 308 is definitely the better choice for me and my defined uses.

[Robinson]

Agreed, all around. In an effort to not get too far into the weeds on caliber selection, I limited my time spent researching. It didn't take long to figure out that 6.5cm would be a superior choice for a person whose primary focus is precision shooting out to the supersonic/transonic limitations of their caliber. While I'd like to explore that for fun and learning purposes, it's pretty much last on the list of my priorities, with the top two being increasing fundamental marksmanship skills and taking small to medium sized game. The 308 is definitely the better choice for me and my defined uses.

Also you mentioned wanting to shoot suppressed. It seems to me a .308 can be had with or cut to a barrel length appropriate for suppressor use. If I were shooting a .30-06 I'd want a longer barrel -- like 24" -- to take advantage of the cartridge and adding a suppressor to that long of a barrel would just make it unwieldy.

[OlongJohnson]

One thing to bear in mind when talking about Tikkas (The modern T3 variant at least) and long range is that they are all built on long actions. People will start talking about how the 6.5 creed is far superior than the .308, but that is really from a limited perspective. When you are shooting factory ammo and speaking in generalities, the 6.5 Creed does offer better downrange performance for target shooting.

For a guy who just wants one rifle, I would still recommend a .308 over a 6.5. The ability to load projectiles suitable for varmints all the way up to the biggest bears as well as do some long range target shooting, with proper handloading, makes it a solid choice.

Some long-range competitors even prefer 6mm to 6.5mm, as the small amount of recoil reduction over the course of a day makes a difference at the end of a long match.

I've OCD'ed on paper a couple times regarding 6mm cartridges, and ended up at 6mm Remington AI both times. Not a popular selection, but it has steeper shoulders that tend to correlate with better accuracy and a longer neck to address the throat wear issue, along with a little capacity edge over any of the .308-based cases without getting silly like a 6mm-06. But if you want to shoot the long bullets, you'll probably still end up with a long action. And the whole thing is a custom-rifle science project.

For one rifle, I agree with LR and others: .308 and go shoot stuff.

[fatdog]

Thanks fatdog. Did you get the 20" or 24" CTR in 6.5 creedmoor?

Mine is a 20", I bought it after I gained access to a good 1000 yard range and decided I wanted to play with that stuff. It is certainly adequate for that.

[newyork]

For that price, you can have a bespoke rifle built to your exact specs.

20487

What is the “poor mans” version of this? 527 CZ the best bet?

[StraitR]

What is the “poor mans” version of this? 527 CZ the best bet?

I have a CZ 455 Varmint, and like it quite a bit. They can build a nice rifle, for sure. I wish they would have chambered the 527 in 5.56mm instead of 223rem, but more importantly, wished they would have made the twist a 1:8 instead of a 1:9. That's pushing it for anything heavier (read longer) than 62gr projectiles.

The other choice is 7.62x39, which is a great short (and medium, which is subjective) range cartridge, but boxer primed brass cased ammo isn't always readily available offline. I realize you live in shotgun only territory, so hunting isn't a factor, but x39 hunting ammunition is extremely limited. I know Hornady makes two SKU's of their SST bullet, and I believe Remington, Federal, and Winchester each make one SKU (maybe two). That said, you could buy online and stock up on $.45 a round plinking ammo from places like TargetSportsUSA.

They don't come cheap, at a $650ish street price, but they are pretty cool carbines. I catch myself looking at the 7.62x39 variant a couple times a year. I still pine for an iron sight bolt action carbine.

[Robinson]

I have a CZ 455 Varmint, and like it quite a bit. They can build a nice rifle, for sure. I wish they would have chambered the 527 in 5.56mm instead of 223rem, but more importantly, wished they would have made the twist a 1:8 instead of a 1:9. That's pushing it for anything heavier (read longer) than 62gr projectiles.

The other choice is 7.62x39, which is a great short (and medium, which is subjective) range cartridge, but boxer primed brass cased ammo isn't always readily available offline. I realize you live in shotgun only territory, so hunting isn't a factor, but x39 hunting ammunition is extremely limited. I know Hornady makes two SKU's of their SST bullet, and I believe Remington, Federal, and Winchester each make one SKU (maybe two). That said, you could buy online and stock up on $.45 a round plinking ammo from places like TargetSportsUSA.

They don't come cheap, at a $650ish street price, but they are pretty cool carbines. I catch myself looking at the 7.62x39 variant a couple times a year. I still pine for an iron sight bolt action carbine.

I think CZ has always claimed that 5.56 is fine in their .223 rifles even if the twist rate isn't optimal for heavier bullets.

[StraitR]

I think CZ has always claimed that 5.56 is fine in their .223 rifles even if the twist rate isn't optimal for heavier bullets.

That's contrary to known best practice and logic when it comes to 5.56 through a 223rem chamber, not to mention their manual ("only CIP/SAAMI compliant ammo of appropriate caliber"). You have a source, or just something you read? I'm not trying to stand you up, I just don't want to leave that here unchallenged and have some dude experience a catastrophic failure from shooting M855 through his 223rem CZ if it's not verified information.

[Robinson]

That's contrary to known best practice and logic when it comes to 5.56 through a 223rem chamber, not to mention their manual ("only CIP/SAAMI compliant ammo of appropriate caliber"). You have a source, or just something you read? I'm not trying to stand you up, I just don't want to leave that here unchallenged and have some dude experience a catastrophic failure from shooting M855 through his 223rem CZ if it's not verified information.

No worries. Go to this page and read CZ's answer to the question:
http://cz-usa.com/support/faq/

[StraitR]

No worries. Go to this page and read CZ's answer to the question:
http://cz-usa.com/support/faq/

Thank you. That's an incredibly helpful FAQ page. Also says their 7.62x39 are CIP spec, so they prefer steel cased ammunition. That makes the x39 even more interesting as a plinker.

[JRB]

That's contrary to known best practice and logic when it comes to 5.56 through a 223rem chamber, not to mention their manual ("only CIP/SAAMI compliant ammo of appropriate caliber"). You have a source, or just something you read? I'm not trying to stand you up, I just don't want to leave that here unchallenged and have some dude experience a catastrophic failure from shooting M855 through his 223rem CZ if it's not verified information.

While this is a frequently voiced concern for safety, has anyone actually seen something bad happen from shooting 5.56 in a factory .223 Rem? In 20 years of shooting a hell of a lot of both, I've never once seen or heard or observed any issues more complicated than increased malfunctions or degraded accuracy. Same for shooting .308 Win in a factory-built gun originally made in 7.62 NATO.

I heard a more plausible story about a guy's 60's era Sako .222 Rem that was rechambered to .223 Rem and blew up when fed hot surplus 5.56, but I never saw pictures/citation/names/location etc on that either.

[rjohnson4405]

I have seen it accidentally done a couple times with no bad results (stuck bolts or misfeeds/jams, no explosions), but not something I'd do regularly.


While this is a frequently voiced concern for safety, has anyone actually seen something bad happen from shooting 5.56 in a factory .223 Rem? In 20 years of shooting a hell of a lot of both, I've never once seen or heard or observed any issues more complicated than increased malfunctions or degraded accuracy. Same for shooting .308 Win in a factory-built gun originally made in 7.62 NATO.

I heard a more plausible story about a guy's 60's era Sako .222 Rem that was rechambered to .223 Rem and blew up when fed hot surplus 5.56, but I never saw pictures/citation/names/location etc on that either.

[JRB]

I have seen it accidentally done a couple times with no bad results (stuck bolts or misfeeds/jams, no explosions), but not something I'd do regularly.

In what rifle did you observe a stuck bolt? What specific ammo? Any other signs of overpressure, or indicators of it being a 5.56 vs .223 issue and not simply tolerance creep/stacking on that weapon vs that ammo?

[StraitR]

While this is a frequently voiced concern for safety, has anyone actually seen something bad happen from shooting 5.56 in a factory .223 Rem? In 20 years of shooting a hell of a lot of both, I've never once seen or heard or observed any issues more complicated than increased malfunctions or degraded accuracy. Same for shooting .308 Win in a factory-built gun originally made in 7.62 NATO.

I heard a more plausible story about a guy's 60's era Sako .222 Rem that was rechambered to .223 Rem and blew up when fed hot surplus 5.56, but I never saw pictures/citation/names/location etc on that either.

I suppose it depends on how you look at such things. I won't shoot 5.56mm through a .223rem chambered barrel because the people responsible for drafting safety guidelines for such things (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturing Institute - SAAMI (https://saami.org)) say it's a bad idea. Others, more adventurous than I, may feel compelled to find out for themselves.

It's under the SAAMI "Technical Information" tab, labeled "Unsafe Firearms & Ammunition Combinations", but HERE (https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Unsafe-Arms-and-Ammunition-Combinations-Web-Site-and-Brochure-Master-Revised-5-7-2018.pdf) is a direct link to the list.

[littlejerry]

I have a CZ 455 Varmint, and like it quite a bit. They can build a nice rifle, for sure. I wish they would have chambered the 527 in 5.56mm instead of 223rem, but more importantly, wished they would have made the twist a 1:8 instead of a 1:9. That's pushing it for anything heavier (read longer) than 62gr projectiles.

The other choice is 7.62x39, which is a great short (and medium, which is subjective) range cartridge, but boxer primed brass cased ammo isn't always readily available offline. I realize you live in shotgun only territory, so hunting isn't a factor, but x39 hunting ammunition is extremely limited. I know Hornady makes two SKU's of their SST bullet, and I believe Remington, Federal, and Winchester each make one SKU (maybe two). That said, you could buy online and stock up on $.45 a round plinking ammo from places like TargetSportsUSA.

They don't come cheap, at a $650ish street price, but they are pretty cool carbines. I catch myself looking at the 7.62x39 variant a couple times a year. I still pine for an iron sight bolt action carbine.

I also find myself looking at the 527 carbine a few times a year. I always get lost in the caliber debate though. 223 is definitely superior for any kind of 300-600 yard plinking. 7.62x39 is a great short range hunting cartridge. Neither do anything better than my AR except look cool and classic.

I do wish they'd offer the carbine chambered in 6.5 Grendel. That would make for a sweet little rifle. Cheap Wolf ammo, long range target rounds, and good hunting ammo available. Total hipster gun.

Oh, and it would need a good receiver sight.

ETA: my favorite all time rifle is my 452 Lux with Tech Sights. It's fun to plinking with and extra fun to squirrel hunt with. If they made that rifle scaled up in 6.5G I'd die happy.

[jandbj]

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/mobile/product/24854/redirect
6.5 Grendel

NECG makes peep sights for the 527 that are elegant and rugged.

[littlejerry]

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/mobile/product/24854/redirect
6.5 Grendel

NECG makes peep sights for the 527 that are elegant and rugged.

Oh I'm aware. The current CZ config has a 24in barrel and no sights. I'm pining for the 527 carbine or Lux in 6.5

[StraitR]

The beginnings of my "do-it-all" practical rifle. It won't win any featherweight rifle competitions, but it's not heavy to me, for my uses. Pic is crappy, but it's what I could get in my current lighting.

Tikka T3x CTR 308 20"
Vortex Razor 1-6 Gen II-E in Warne low rings
Wilderness Rhodesian sling on the way.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4848/44177822800_02a519522a_c.jpg

[rob_s]

Since we are now two+ years since this thread was started, I’m wondering if the off-thexshekf market has improve at all? Is it yet possible to get the following all in one gun?

.308
Controlled round feed
Open top bolt (for easier single-round loading)
18 in “lightweight” barrel
Threaded
Iron sights that don’t have to be removed to install scope

[newyork]

Savage re-did the Scout. Anyone have hands on? How is it? I’m pretty sure Pat Kelley has a very favorable review.

[jandbj]

Since we are now two+ years since this thread was started, I’m wondering if the off-thexshekf market has improve at all? Is it yet possible to get the following all in one gun?

.308
Controlled round feed
Open top bolt (for easier single-round loading)
18 in “lightweight” barrel
Threaded
Iron sights that don’t have to be removed to install scope


http://granitemountaingunsmithing.com/recon-scout-rifle/. This package has been getting good reviews over on scoutrifle.org

[rob_s]

http://granitemountaingunsmithing.com/recon-scout-rifle/. This package has been getting good reviews over on scoutrifle.org

That appears to be only workable in Scout format. I need to amend my original list...

[rob_s]

Since we are now two+ years since this thread was started, I’m wondering if the off-thexshekf market has improve at all? Is it yet possible to get the following all in one gun?

.308
Controlled round feed
Open top bolt (for easier single-round loading)
18 in “lightweight” barrel
Threaded
Iron sights that don’t have to be removed to install scope



.308
Controlled round feed
Open top bolt (for easier single-round loading)
18 in “lightweight” barrel
Threaded
Iron sights that don’t have to be removed to install scope
Conventional scope mount
Under $1k

[jandbj]

That appears to be only workable in Scout format. I need to amend my original list...

Either scout scoped or conventional works on it. Rear sight folds out of the way on the rear mount.

[rob_s]

Either scout scoped or conventional works on it. Rear sight folds out of the way on the rear mount.

what I'm hoping for is barrel-mounted sights that don't have to move at all.

That's really the primary issue with most current Scout options (like the Ruger) with receiver-mounted rear sights. Since they favor the scout scope the accomodation for the iron sight and conventional scope becomes an either/or proposition.

It seems as though the only factory option is still the Savage Hog Hunter (https://www.savagearms.com/firearms/centerfire/model-110/110-hog-hunter), I just wish it wasn't push-feed. and that it held another round.

[GJM]

For my general purpose use, and for hunting deer in areas with bears, my new .308 Scout rifle weighs 7 pounds, five ounces bare and costs a little more, but offers many other benefits.

32733

[mtnbkr]

It seems as though the only factory option is still the Savage Hog Hunter (https://www.savagearms.com/firearms/centerfire/model-110/110-hog-hunter), I just wish it wasn't push-feed. and that it held another round.

FWIW, I replaced my Hog Hunter stock with one for another Savage Short Action rifle that used removable magazines. Once I did that, I was able to use the Savage 10rnd (really 9) box magazines. I mounted a rear-mounted peep sight, but you can either keep the factory rear sight or replace it with a peep on the mid-mounted ramp. It's a fun gun, one I can shoot all day. Even with the stock, magazine, and rear sight, I have a lot less in it than a new Ruger Gunsite 308.

ETA: I see Savage now offers the HH with a removable box mag. I would look at whether or not the rifle will support their proprietary 10rnd mag if you want more capacity.


32736

Chris

[rob_s]

ETA: I see Savage now offers the HH with a removable box mag. I would look at whether or not the rifle will support their proprietary 10rnd mag if you want more capacity.


huh, I missed that too. Looks like there's also a "brush hunter" which is pretty bling-y.
https://www.savagearms.com/firearms/centerfire/model-110/110-brush-hunter

[mtnbkr]

huh, I missed that too. Looks like there's also a "brush hunter" which is pretty bling-y.
https://www.savagearms.com/firearms/centerfire/model-110/110-brush-hunter

Other than caliber choices and stainless action+barrel, I can't tell what is different. I suppose caliber would be the deciding factor.

Chris

[TCFD273]

For my general purpose use, and for hunting deer in areas with bears, my new .308 Scout rifle weighs 7 pounds, five ounces bare and costs a little more, but offers many other benefits.

32733

I’ve been looking for an update on this gun. How’s it been running?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chuck Whitlock]

what I'm hoping for is barrel-mounted sights that don't have to move at all.

That's really the primary issue with most current Scout options (like the Ruger) with receiver-mounted rear sights. Since they favor the scout scope the accomodation for the iron sight and conventional scope becomes an either/or proposition.

It seems as though the only factory option is still the Savage Hog Hunter (https://www.savagearms.com/firearms/centerfire/model-110/110-hog-hunter), I just wish it wasn't push-feed. and that it held another round.

http://www.xssights.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=993608&CAT=8286

Not an option available from the factory, but wouldn't be too hard to add yourself.

[GJM]

I’ve been looking for an update on this gun. How’s it been running?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Haven’t shot enough rounds yet to offer an informed opinion, but hope to in December.

[Inkwell 41]

what I'm hoping for is barrel-mounted sights that don't have to move at all.

That's really the primary issue with most current Scout options (like the Ruger) with receiver-mounted rear sights. Since they favor the scout scope the accomodation for the iron sight and conventional scope becomes an either/or proposition.

It seems as though the only factory option is still the Savage Hog Hunter (https://www.savagearms.com/firearms/centerfire/model-110/110-hog-hunter), I just wish it wasn't push-feed. and that it held another round.

The Granite Mountain Recon Scout was designed to allow scout, conventional or red dot optics without removing anything. The rear sight simply folds down, flush with the mount, allowing a conventional scope to be mounted as low as possible. Sadly, unless something has changed, I understand that Granite Mountain has closed it's doors. The rear sight design considered "open" by the designer meaning that he intended others to incorporate it in their builds.

Q's "The Fix" looks like an interesting development. The price is quite high, and it lacks CRF, but the remaining features are somewhat scout"ish".

[StraitR]

For my general purpose use, and for hunting deer in areas with bears, my new .308 Scout rifle weighs 7 pounds, five ounces bare and costs a little more, but offers many other benefits.

Looks fantastic G. Love the color. Aside from price, I think that's an excellent option for anyone not intentionally avoiding the whole MSR thing.

My 308 CTR came in at 7 pounds 4 ounces bare as well. Only when I inserted an empty mag and mounted the optic did it creep over 9 pounds (still need to mount my Rhodesian sling). I thought about changing optics for the purpose of saving weight (could drop about 9oz by going with a Leupold VX-R 2-7), but I really like the true 1x, daylight visible red dot, and generally more useful reticle on the Razor 1-6. It's come down to prioritizing capabilities vs weight, and I chose the suppressor friendly, higher capacity CTR with heavier optic due to my purposes. With that 308 AR, you have significantly increased your capability over a 5rd bolt rifle, and in doing so, took a weight penalty. Logical, IMO.

[ASH556]

At the risk of diverting the thread, I'm going to jump on the current theme of MSR/AR-pattern really being the answer to this unless legality prohibits you. If you're in a free state, I see no value to trying to do the scout rifle thing on a bolt-gun. Further, unless you live in a dangerous game place, I don't even see the value of going beyond .223.

My own journey/experience in "one rifle for everything" has led me to the 14.5" AR15 with Colt SOCOM barrel + good ammo (62/64gr Gold Dot) + Good optic (Nightforce NX8 1-8). This is my second season in the field with this setup and other than changing the optic from a TA11 ACOG to the NX8, I've found nothing that needs to change.

I can run speed drills like the VTAC 1-5 and El Prez, take medium game (up to 200lb Whitetail Buck), and comfortably hike foothill terrain for miles, including brush, with the same setup. Dial the scope to 8X and you have a 600yd effective setup.

[Lester Polfus]

Further, unless you live in a dangerous game place, I don't even see the value of going beyond .223.

Well....

I envision my Scout-ish rifle as a do-all kind of platform. I've successfully hunted deer with a .223 in Oregon, but it isn't legal here in WA state. Both the law and good sense dictate a caliber heavier than .223 for elk, though I certainly don't think I need the SuperDuperUlimate Magnums that many people seem to consider a minimum.

For these purposes, I am a big .308 fan, although reasonable minds can certainly differ.

[ASH556]

Well....

I envision my Scout-ish rifle as a do-all kind of platform. I've successfully hunted deer with a .223 in Oregon, but it isn't legal here in WA state. Both the law and good sense dictate a caliber heavier than .223 for elk, though I certainly don't think I need the SuperDuperUlimate Magnums that many people seem to consider a minimum.

For these purposes, I am a big .308 fan, although reasonable minds can certainly differ.

True that! Let's say legality and game size notwithstanding then.

[JHC]

Well....

I envision my Scout-ish rifle as a do-all kind of platform. I've successfully hunted deer with a .223 in Oregon, but it isn't legal here in WA state. Both the law and good sense dictate a caliber heavier than .223 for elk, though I certainly don't think I need the SuperDuperUlimate Magnums that many people seem to consider a minimum.

For these purposes, I am a big .308 fan, although reasonable minds can certainly differ.

Lately I'm thinking the 6.5 Creedmoor has it all over the .308 for a Scout. One can go Kimber Mountain level light without the recoil penalty. With the loads available today and the flexibility of 6.5 bullet options? Seems I've seen reports this 6.5 tolerates moderate barrel lengths well.


But I ain't no rifleman.

[Lester Polfus]

Lately I'm thinking the 6.5 Creedmoor has it all over the .308 for a Scout. One can go Kimber Mountain level light without the recoil penalty. With the loads available today and the flexibility of 6.5 bullet options? Seems I've seen reports this 6.5 tolerates moderate barrel lengths well.


But I ain't no rifleman.

I'm not much of a rifleman either, but if I were, I'd take a look at the 6.5 Creed.

I've been shooting the same .308 rifle since 2001 or 2002. The damn thing is almost a member fo the family. I've got tons of .308 brass, components, load data, etc. There's no denying there's some advantages to the 6.5 over the .308 but I really don't feel like starting from scratch on a new platform.

If all my stuff burned up in a fire or something, I might go in a different direction.

[JHC]

I'm not much of a rifleman either, but if I were, I'd take a look at the 6.5 Creed.

I've been shooting the same .308 rifle since 2001 or 2002. The damn thing is almost a member fo the family. I've got tons of .308 brass, components, load data, etc. There's no denying there's some advantages to the 6.5 over the .308 but I really don't feel like starting from scratch on a new platform.

If all my stuff burned up in a fire or something, I might go in a different direction.

That .308 sounds secure. ;)

A .25-06, a couple .308s; I've never been prone to hang on to a bolt gun for some reason. Maybe the deep woods hunting opportunities with 25 yds an ave long shot has something to do with it. For reasons I'll probably define and then later regret I'm eyeing 6.5 CM lately.

[Lester Polfus]

That .308 sounds secure. ;)

A .25-06, a couple .308s; I've never been prone to hang on to a bolt gun for some reason. Maybe the deep woods hunting opportunities with 25 yds an ave long shot has something to do with it. For reasons I'll probably define and then later regret I'm eyeing 6.5 CM lately.

It's more gun than I need most of the time. When I'm hunting on my property, the 30-30, or for that matter a pistol is more than adequate. The .308 works well when I'm up in the mountains or over on state forest lands, but even then the shots are rarely over 300 yards, so I really wouldn't be taking shots a the distance where there's a meaningful difference between .308 and 6.5 Creed. If I lived in Montana or something, I'd probably be all over it.

[rob_s]

At the risk of diverting the thread, I'm going to jump on the current theme of MSR/AR-pattern really being the answer to this unless legality prohibits you. If you're in a free state, I see no value to trying to do the scout rifle thing on a bolt-gun.
Cost. At least, if done "right" by my standard. While it's certainly possible to get a Scout rifle costing as much as or more than a .308 AR, that's not where my interest lies.


Further, unless you live in a dangerous game place, I don't even see the value of going beyond .223.
Maybe. But if I already have a safe full of ARs in .223, then having a bolt gun in the same caliber to me makes literally zero sense.

[HCM]

Maybe. But if I already have a safe full of ARs in .223, then having a bolt gun in the same caliber to me makes literally zero sense.

Logistics. A bolt gun that takes the same ammo as your safe full of AR's is a bolt gun you can more easily and economically practice with.

[Casual Friday]

Well....

I envision my Scout-ish rifle as a do-all kind of platform. I've successfully hunted deer with a .223 in Oregon, but it isn't legal here in WA state. Both the law and good sense dictate a caliber heavier than .223 for elk, though I certainly don't think I need the SuperDuperUlimate Magnums that many people seem to consider a minimum.

For these purposes, I am a big .308 fan, although reasonable minds can certainly differ.


It's more gun than I need most of the time. When I'm hunting on my property, the 30-30, or for that matter a pistol is more than adequate. The .308 works well when I'm up in the mountains or over on state forest lands, but even then the shots are rarely over 300 yards, so I really wouldn't be taking shots a the distance where there's a meaningful difference between .308 and 6.5 Creed. If I lived in Montana or something, I'd probably be all over it.

Concur. I don't know where in WA you are, but here on the west side a .308 is about perfect for a hunting rifle given that 3-400 yards is about max distance, even across a clear cut. The woods here are quite dense.

[rob_s]

Logistics. A bolt gun that takes the same ammo as your safe full of AR's is a bolt gun you can more easily and economically practice with.

that seems kinda tail-wag-dog to me. That only works if the goal is practicing. I gave up on that as my goal awhile back.

would you buy a .22 carry gun because it's cheaper to practice with?

[NH Shooter]

The issue with a .223 bolt gun has always been finding one with a fast enough twist rate for heavier slugs. Tikka now offers their T3x LITE COMPACT (http://www.tikka.fi/en-us/rifles/tikka-t3x/t3x-lite-compact#technical_specifications) in .223 with a 1:8 twist, which is perfect for something like the Speer 75 grain Gold Dot load (which hits like a hammer). Add a quality LPVO and that would be a rifle I'd love to have in my safe.

FWIW, I already have a (14-pound) precision bolt gun in .308, but she ain't the date I want to take for a hike in the woods.

[okie john]

At the risk of diverting the thread, I'm going to jump on the current theme of MSR/AR-pattern really being the answer to this unless legality prohibits you. If you're in a free state, I see no value to trying to do the scout rifle thing on a bolt-gun. Further, unless you live in a dangerous game place, I don't even see the value of going beyond .223.

My own journey/experience in "one rifle for everything" has led me to the 14.5" AR15 with Colt SOCOM barrel + good ammo (62/64gr Gold Dot) + Good optic (Nightforce NX8 1-8). This is my second season in the field with this setup and other than changing the optic from a TA11 ACOG to the NX8, I've found nothing that needs to change.

I can run speed drills like the VTAC 1-5 and El Prez, take medium game (up to 200lb Whitetail Buck), and comfortably hike foothill terrain for miles, including brush, with the same setup. Dial the scope to 8X and you have a 600yd effective setup.

I agree on not bothering with Scout rifles. Free state or not, this thread has shown that better choices exist.

I disagree on the 5.56 being an acceptable choice for an everything rifle. It definitely can work on medium game under ideal conditions (open country, moderate distance, undisturbed game, fair weather, etc.), but game isn't always medium and conditions aren't always ideal. Plenty of people have taken bigger deer plus boar, bear, and elk with a 5.56. But so many of them have made a mess of things with the 5.56 that there's a very strong case to be made for something on the order of the 270, 308, or 30-06 as a sensible minimum. They're orders of magnitude more powerful than the 5.56 plus factory ammo is good, cheap, and easy to find. The belted magnums also have their place, especially on the kind of expensive multi-day backcountry hunt that you might only make once or twice in a lifetime or when the wind picks up.


Okie John

[rob_s]

I agree on not bothering with Scout rifles. Free state or not, this thread has shown that better choices exist.

Better choices such as...?

If you mean the "new scout" which is more of a "practical rifle" that's still in the bolt-action genre (albeit basically a "scout" with a conventional scope, at least to me), then I'd agree.

[okie john]

Better choices such as...?

If you mean the "new scout" which is more of a "practical rifle" that's still in the bolt-action genre (albeit basically a "scout" with a conventional scope, at least to me), then I'd agree.

I cling pretty tightly to Cooper's definition of a scout: 1m long, 3kg in weight, iron sights, and scope (if any) mounted forward.

The better choice is the kind of general-purpose rifle that we're talking about on this thread, which is slightly longer and heavier than a Scout, with a scope mounted over the action.


Okie John

[rob_s]

I cling pretty tightly to Cooper's definition of a scout: 1m long, 3kg in weight, iron sights, and scope (if any) mounted forward.

The better choice is the kind of general-purpose rifle that we're talking about on this thread, which is slightly longer and heavier than a Scout, with a scope mounted over the action.


Okie John

I agree for the most part.

The weight thing does bug me though. I've always been a proponent of light guns, in particular ARs well before anyone else was really pursuing them. Especially in the case of a "practical" bolt gun, I'm not sure I see the benefit in the heavier barrel.

At least in this case they flute it, so that helps I suppose. I'm close to biting down on one of these, under the assumption that I can take that stupid rail off and use conventional rings on two-part bases. Not controlled-round feed but I suppose it ticks the rest of my boxes.
https://www.tombstonetactical.com/catalog/mossberg/27798-mvp-thunder-ranch-rifle-308win-18.5in-threaded-10rd-od-green/

https://www.tombstonetactical.com/images/mossberg/27798-1-large.jpg

[NH Shooter]

http://www.tikka.fi/en-us/rifles/tikka-t3x/t3x-compact-tactical-rifle

[David S.]

http://www.tikka.fi/en-us/rifles/tikka-t3x/t3x-compact-tactical-rifle
The Tikka T3x has been discussed a lot in this thread. The general consensus has been that the 8lbs empty weight is too heavy for this concept.

[MistWolf]

.308
Controlled round feed
Open top bolt (for easier single-round loading)
18 in “lightweight” barrel
Threaded
Iron sights that don’t have to be removed to install scope
Conventional scope mount
Under $1k


I've carried and shot bolt action rifles as a companion on adventures for more years than I care to admit to. Never after anything dangerous and more as an excuse just to get out and explore. But enough to get a good feel for what I think works.


.308- There are plenty of good reasons to choose a 308. But there are plenty of good reasons to choose other calibers as well. This is a subjective choice.
Controlled round feed- There are a couple of differences when operating a controlled feed rifle versus a push feed, but they are minor and a matter of training. Both are good choices in a well designed, quality rifle. Work the bolt vigorously and both will feed every time.
Open top bolt (for easier single-round loading)- Yes. Use a two piece scope mount and with a little practice, this won't be a problem.
18 in “lightweight” barrel- Minor differences in handling and practical ballistics. I prefer a 22" barrel for reduced muzzle blast. Strictly a matter of personal choice.
Threaded- Easy enough to get done, but certainly easier to get a rifle with the muzzle already threaded.
Iron sights that don’t have to be removed to install scope- Fact is, your fighting physics with this one. It's difficult to find an elegant solution. Redfield used to make a one piece mount with a simple peep that could be used when the scope is removed. I don't recall if they ever made a one piece the same way. A rear sight that doesn't interfere with scope mounting usually means its mounted far forward on the barrel. This type of sight works well within its limits, but isn't worth the expense and added complexity.
Conventional scope mount- Yes. I never found a forward mounted optic as easy to use as an optic mounted in the conventional position.
Under $1k- See below


Personally, I find a conventional bolt action rifle to be more useful and easier to set up than adhering strictly to the Scout rifle pattern. That opens up your choices and makes it easier to find rifles that work within your budget.

One of my favorite rifles was a 1909 Argentine Mauser chambered in 6mm Remington given to me by my father. I gave it to my son when he was a young boy. It has a simple 4x scope on a 2 piece Redfield mount and had a 23 inch barrel. Over the years, I put a lot of rounds through it. Another is a Remington 700 Mountain rifle in 280 Remington with a 3x9 Leupold, again using a Redfield two piece mount. I cannot imagine anything a Scout pattern rifle could do any better than my two favorites. Just something to think about.

[MistWolf]

...Redfield used to make a one piece mount with a simple peep that could be used when the scope is removed. I don't recall if they ever made a one piece the same way.
I meant to say "I don't recall if they ever made a two piece the same way."

[NH Shooter]

At least with a Remington 700 receiver, there are some major advantages to using a quality, 1-piece mount in regards to ring alignment and a stress-free mounting of the scope. You can't just bolt 2-piece mounts onto a Remington receiver without some major alignment issues, and even a 1-piece needs to be bedded to the receiver.

FWIW, I have zero issues single feeding rounds with the 1-piece mount.

32837

[NH Shooter]

I'm close to biting down on one of these, under the assumption that I can take that stupid rail off and use conventional rings on two-part bases.

The main advantage of the 1-piece mount is that when installed stress-free, it ensures alignment of the rings. Bedding a 1-piece base to the receiver is easy to do;

https://www.murphyprecision.com/Page/Scope_Base_Bedding

I too like the cleaner look of 2-piece mounts, but IMO a bedded 1-piece mount is stronger and provides a perfectly-true base for the rings to mount to.

[rob_s]

The main advantage of the 1-piece mount is that when installed stress-free, it ensures alignment of the rings. Bedding a 1-piece base to the receiver is easy to do;

https://www.murphyprecision.com/Page/Scope_Base_Bedding

I too like the cleaner look of 2-piece mounts, but IMO a bedded 1-piece mount is stronger and provides a perfectly-true base for the rings to mount to.

For me it's more about accessing the bolt/chamber for top-loading and clearance of malfunctions (which, from what I've seen, are more common in a push-feed so even more critical in the case of the Mossberg).

[rob_s]

So first, yes, this is my list so yes it's personal preference and subjective


I've carried and shot bolt action rifles as a companion on adventures for more years than I care to admit to. Never after anything dangerous and more as an excuse just to get out and explore. But enough to get a good feel for what I think works.

.308- There are plenty of good reasons to choose a 308. But there are plenty of good reasons to choose other calibers as well. This is a subjective choice.

I'm not, nor do I have any interest in being, a hand loader or "rifle guy", so for me personally anything that's not .22, 9mm, .223, .308, or 12ga constitute "snowflake" calibers. I'm aware that lots of people have lots of reasons for lots of this or that, I just don't and frankly I think most of them are at best diminishing returns for your "average gun owner" like me.


Controlled round feed- There are a couple of differences when operating a controlled feed rifle versus a push feed, but they are minor and a matter of training. Both are good choices in a well designed, quality rifle. Work the bolt vigorously and both will feed every time.
I don't agree, but I don't disagree enough to care about arguing the point. use matters, and I've watched more than a few push feed guns have feed issues when fired rapidly and in dynamic drills. For your typical "rifle guy" hunter those issues will likely never present. At this point, however, it appears that to get what I want I'll have to sacrifice at least one criteria, and this one will probably be it.


Open top bolt (for easier single-round loading)- Yes. Use a two piece scope mount and with a little practice, this won't be a problem.
yep, which is why I want that dumb rail off the Mossberg an in the garbage bin where it belongs


18 in “lightweight” barrel- Minor differences in handling and practical ballistics. I prefer a 22" barrel for reduced muzzle blast. Strictly a matter of personal choice.
Barrel length isn't a cross I'd die on, but I don't need anything more than 18" in Florida, and more is just a snag.


Threaded- Easy enough to get done, but certainly easier to get a rifle with the muzzle already threaded.
plus, since I want fixed irons, it becomes even more of a cost issue if the gun doesn't come that way.


Iron sights that don’t have to be removed to install scope- Fact is, your fighting physics with this one. It's difficult to find an elegant solution. Redfield used to make a one piece mount with a simple peep that could be used when the scope is removed. I don't recall if they ever made a one piece the same way. A rear sight that doesn't interfere with scope mounting usually means its mounted far forward on the barrel. This type of sight works well within its limits, but isn't worth the expense and added complexity.
All I'm asking for is fixed barrel-mounted sights. I don't need anything elegant.


Personally, I find a conventional bolt action rifle to be more useful and easier to set up than adhering strictly to the Scout rifle pattern. That opens up your choices and makes it easier to find rifles that work within your budget.
Nothing in my list above should be considered "scout" but more of "practical rifle", which is the direction this thread has drifted many times.

[NH Shooter]

I'm thinking there may be a .223 T3x LITE Compact (http://www.tikka.fi/en-us/rifles/tikka-t3x/t3x-lite-compact) project in 2019 for me.

[PearTree]

I’ve read this thread from the beginning and have really learned a lot. I’m looking for input/suggestions for a more “practical rifle” build. I currently hunt whitetail but am planning some trips to Colorado and the Midwest to hunt game as well.
My current plan is a tikka t3x lite compact in 308. I don’t shoot past 400 for whitetail so I’m looking at a leupold 2-7 or 2.5-10 in Talley rings.
Do those with experience think this rifle would work for Colorado and Midwest size game out to 400 yards or so? My ammo of choice is federal fusion which works well for whitetail.
Any input is greatly appreciated.

[MistWolf]

I'm not, nor do I have any interest in being, a hand loader or "rifle guy", so for me personally anything that's not .22, 9mm, .223, .308, or 12ga constitute "snowflake" calibers. I'm aware that lots of people have lots of reasons for lots of this or that, I just don't and frankly I think most of them are at best diminishing returns for your "average gun owner" like me.
Using this criteria, whichever rifle you choose, it must be 308.


I don't agree, but I don't disagree enough to care about arguing the point. use matters, and I've watched more than a few push feed guns have feed issues when fired rapidly and in dynamic drills. For your typical "rifle guy" hunter those issues will likely never present. At this point, however, it appears that to get what I want I'll have to sacrifice at least one criteria, and this one will probably be it.
Because my father believed his children should know the fundamentals of riflery, I got practice running bolt actions hard, both controlled and push feed. To keep this short, the most important thing to remember about running a push feed is be smooth and fast and don't "double clutch". That is, don't shirt stroke the bolt or you'll be clearing a double feed, something you don't want to have to do with a Remington 700 action. Run a good push feed action smooth and fast and it will feed reliably every time, even upside down. What does this mean to the conversation? If you found two rifles that you like very much, but the only difference being caliber and feed type, which would you choose? A controlled feed rifle in 7mm-08, or the push feed in 308?



plus, since I want fixed irons, it becomes even more of a cost issue if the gun doesn't come that way.

All I'm asking for is fixed barrel-mounted sights. I don't need anything elegant.
The truth is, most factory supplied barrel mounted rear sights on bolt action rifles are almost useless. It doesn't hurt anything to have them, but they tend to be fragile and compared to a receiver mounted aperture sight, the sight radius is quite short and the sight picture is not as good. This isn't to say you should skip the iron sights, but weigh them honestly. If you found two rifles you like that were identical except one was controlled feed with no iron sights and the other was a push feed with iron sights, which would you choose? Or, if there were two identical rifles, except one had iron sights and was $100 more than the the other without iron sights, which would you choose?

In the end, you have to weigh it out. Do you compromise on one of your criteria to get a rifle under budget? Do you compromise to buy something now to get started shooting, or do you wait until you find the perfect rifle?

I think a good solution would be to look for one of the newer Winchester Model 70s with the push feed action. I believe some were made with factory installed iron sights. I don't know if that configuration was offered with an 18 inch barrel, but if not, you can have a gunsmith cut the barrel and reinstall the front sight. Of course that adds to cost and only you can decide if it's worth the expense and trouble.


Nothing in my list above should be considered "scout" but more of "practical rifle", which is the direction this thread has drifted many times.

Gotcha

[rob_s]

Because my father believed his children should know the fundamentals of riflery, I got practice running bolt actions hard, both controlled and push feed. To keep this short, the most important thing to remember about running a push feed is be smooth and fast and don't "double clutch". That is, don't shirt stroke the bolt or you'll be clearing a double feed, something you don't want to have to do with a Remington 700 action. Run a good push feed action smooth and fast and it will feed reliably every time, even upside down.
I view this a lot like I view the pump-action shotgun debate. If run properly, it's a non issue. The issue arises when we add stress, weird shooting positions, stress, etc.

What does this mean to the conversation? If you found two rifles that you like very much, but the only difference being caliber and feed type, which would you choose? A controlled feed rifle in 7mm-08, or the push feed in 308?[/quote]
the .308




The truth is, most factory supplied barrel mounted rear sights on bolt action rifles are almost useless. It doesn't hurt anything to have them, but they tend to be fragile and compared to a receiver mounted aperture sight, the sight radius is quite short and the sight picture is not as good. This isn't to say you should skip the iron sights, but weigh them honestly.
I get all of that, but I still want them. Knowing that this rifle will likely rarely leave the safe, i'm unconcerned about relative precision or fragility.


If you found two rifles you like that were identical except one was controlled feed with no iron sights and the other was a push feed with iron sights, which would you choose? Or, if there were two identical rifles, except one had iron sights and was $100 more than the the other without iron sights, which would you choose?
I can buy a brand new Model 70 that is ideal to me except for the sights and threading, but since I don't do that I suppose I'm choosing the sights.


In the end, you have to weigh it out. Do you compromise on one of your criteria to get a rifle under budget? Do you compromise to buy something now to get started shooting, or do you wait until you find the perfect rifle?
well, duh. The whole point of this discussion is that *my* ideal right doesn't exist right now.


I think a good solution would be to look for one of the newer Winchester Model 70s with the push feed action. I believe some were made with factory installed iron sights. I don't know if that configuration was offered with an 18 inch barrel, but if not, you can have a gunsmith cut the barrel and reinstall the front sight. Of course that adds to cost and only you can decide if it's worth the expense and trouble.

I believe current model 70s are controlled-feed, no? I had a featherweight compact (http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/rifles/model-70/model-70-Current-Products/model-70-featherweight-compact.html) that was, anyway. I've seen a few used ones come up for sale with irons, but then they aren't threaded. I've thought about buying a featherweight (http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/rifles/model-70/model-70-Current-Products/model-70-featherweight.html) and having the barrel cut, threaded, sights installed... The cost of fiddle fuck either way is high enough that I'm not interested.

At the end of the day, it's not important enough for me to have a bolt-action rifle that doesn't tick my boxes. once one shows up that does, then I'll buy it.

[NH Shooter]

Huh....

Nothing new but I've spent some time researching this one (https://worldoftroy.com/product/troy-pump-action-hunting-rifle/). The consensus is that they are well made, durable, lightweight and accurate;

32876


The hunter model above is available in .243, .308 and .338 Federal. Several models are available in .223/5.56 as well, this one the National model (https://worldoftroy.com/product/troy-pump-action-rifle-national/) with folding stock, which weighs 6-pounds, 11-ounces as shown;

32877


All take standard AR-10/15 magazines. Triggers are also standard AR parts, so upgrades are easy (Geissele SSA for me). And as Rob_S likes to say "no fiddle-fucking" required - install your favorite AR sights and/or optic, grab a few AR magazines and you're GtG.

I could definitely see one of these sitting in my safe and based on what I now know, might prefer it over a bolt gun.

[mtnbkr]

I've been toying with the idea of a Ruger American Predator (https://www.ruger.com/products/americanRiflePredator/specSheets/26974.html) as a Scoutish rifle. It's lightweight, compact (18" barrel), threaded for the muzzle device of your choice, and uses AI pattern mags. The 1:10 barrel should shoot 180gr 308s well and do passably with 200gr loads, especially if they're RN bullets. It lacks iron sights, but I'm starting to think a durable red dot sight might be just as good. A pre-sighted scope on QR rings and a red dot might be a good combo. IME, scopes that are removed and reinstalled tend to keep zero close enough for hunting purposes. I've seen these rifles for as little as $350 at gun shows.

The self-built Savage HH 308 I've mentioned in this thread is a great gun at the range, but weighs too much for my tastes in the field (I hunt in the mountains). This Ruger has all the features of my Savage except the iron sights. Though the Ruger's lightweight barrel probably would perform as well over long range sessions...

Chris

[NH Shooter]

At the risk of diverting the thread, I'm going to jump on the current theme of MSR/AR-pattern really being the answer to this unless legality prohibits you. If you're in a free state, I see no value to trying to do the scout rifle thing on a bolt-gun. Further, unless you live in a dangerous game place, I don't even see the value of going beyond .223.

I've arrived at the same conclusion.

That said, I can't take it with me to NY when we visit family, and where we often go to a local range for some recreational shooting. Not only can't I take the AR, but I can't take any handguns either, so I'm limited to either my 14-pound precision bolt gun or a .22 LR.

I'm really considering picking up a Troy Pump Action Rifle: National (https://worldoftroy.com/product/troy-pump-action-rifle-national/) for this purpose. At 6-pounds/11-ounces and with the folding stock, I can fit it inconspicuously in my travel duffel making it easy to bring along. I'd install a Geissele SSA trigger, pick up a few 10-round magazines and it would be 100% NY good-to-go.

[peterb]

I'm really considering picking up a Troy Pump Action Rifle: National (https://worldoftroy.com/product/troy-pump-action-rifle-national/) for this purpose. At 6-pounds/11-ounces and with the folding stock, I can fit it inconspicuously in my travel duffel making it easy to bring along. I'd install a Geissele SSA trigger, pick up a few 10-round magazines and it would be 100% NY good-to-go.

How are the erogonomics running a pump rifle prone?

[NH Shooter]

How are the erogonomics running a pump rifle prone?

Never tried, but I would think a distinct pain-in-the-nuts. For standing, sitting or kneeling maybe not so much.

One thing for certain, nothing is going to beat a semi-auto in this regard.

[Chuck Whitlock]

The main advantage of the 1-piece mount is that when installed stress-free, it ensures alignment of the rings.
I too like the cleaner look of 2-piece mounts, but IMO a bedded 1-piece mount is stronger and provides a perfectly-true base for the rings to mount to.


For me it's more about accessing the bolt/chamber for top-loading and clearance of malfunctions (which, from what I've seen, are more common in a push-feed so even more critical in the case of the Mossberg).


yep, which is why I want that dumb rail off the Mossberg an in the garbage bin where it belongs

I would think that Ruger's integral bases would be a plus in this regard.


I've been toying with the idea of a Ruger American Predator (https://www.ruger.com/products/americanRiflePredator/specSheets/26974.html) as a Scoutish rifle. It's lightweight, compact (18" barrel), threaded for the muzzle device of your choice, and uses AI pattern mags. The 1:10 barrel should shoot 180gr 308s well and do passably with 200gr loads, especially if they're RN bullets. It lacks iron sights, but I'm starting to think a durable red dot sight might be just as good. A pre-sighted scope on QR rings and a red dot might be a good combo. IME, scopes that are removed and reinstalled tend to keep zero close enough for hunting purposes. I've seen these rifles for as little as $350 at gun shows.

This is intriguing.

Ruger also sells 2-piece bases and 12.5" LOP stocks, if you like.

http://shopruger.com/Ruger-American-Rifle/products/2100/1/0

[Chuck Whitlock]

plus, since I want fixed irons, it becomes even more of a cost issue if the gun doesn't come that way.

All I'm asking for is fixed barrel-mounted sights. I don't need anything elegant.

I don't know that anyone makes one, but it would seem relatively easy to make a rear sight that mounts to the forward pic rail on the Ruger GSR with the scope mounted conventionally.

[okie john]

I’ve read this thread from the beginning and have really learned a lot. I’m looking for input/suggestions for a more “practical rifle” build. I currently hunt whitetail but am planning some trips to Colorado and the Midwest to hunt game as well.
My current plan is a tikka t3x lite compact in 308. I don’t shoot past 400 for whitetail so I’m looking at a leupold 2-7 or 2.5-10 in Talley rings.
Do those with experience think this rifle would work for Colorado and Midwest size game out to 400 yards or so? My ammo of choice is federal fusion which works well for whitetail.
Any input is greatly appreciated.

Should be fine. The Compact has a 12.5” LOP and a 20” barrel. The T3x has a 23.6” barrel, which I’d prefer for longer shots.


Okie John

[NH Shooter]

The Tikka 3X Lite is mighty tempting. The .223 version has a 1:8 twist, which makes 75 - 77 grain loads a viable option (most other .223 bolt guns are 1:9 or slower).

What I'm trying to figure out is the weight - I see 6.6 lbs. as the standard listing, but then 5.9 lbs. in reviews. It seems that with careful optic selection, weight could be kept around (or perhaps under) 7 pounds, which would make a .223 version more amenable to extended sessions of rifleman skill-building.

If the rifle was to be used for big game hunting, the .308 would obviously be the better choice in order to comply with minimum caliber requirements. That said I have zero doubt that something like the Speer Gold Dot 75 grain load in .223 would be wholly adequate for humane harvesting of white-tail deer.

[okie john]

The Tikka 3X Lite is mighty tempting. The .223 version has a 1:8 twist, which makes 75 - 77 grain loads a viable option (most other .223 bolt guns are 1:9 or slower).

What I'm trying to figure out is the weight - I see 6.6 lbs. as the standard listing, but then 5.9 lbs. in reviews. It seems that with careful optic selection, weight could be kept around (or perhaps under) 7 pounds, which would make a .223 version more amenable to extended sessions of rifleman skill-building.

If the rifle was to be used for big game hunting, the .308 would obviously be the better choice in order to comply with minimum caliber requirements. That said I have zero doubt that something like the Speer Gold Dot 75 grain load in .223 would be wholly adequate for humane harvesting of white-tail deer.

My T3 Lites weighed 6.6 pounds slick, but don’t let that stop you. A seven-pound rifle is a lot harder to shoot well than an eight-pound rifle.


Okie John

[NH Shooter]

My T3 Lites weighed 6.6 pounds slick...

That's why I'm thinking the T3X Compact with the shorter barrel and stock may be just under six pounds as reported in some reviews. That would leave 16 ounces for scope & mount while remaining under seven pounds.

[okie john]

That's why I'm thinking the T3X Compact with the shorter barrel and stock may be just under six pounds as reported in some reviews. That would leave 16 ounces for scope & mount while remaining under seven pounds.

Where does the seven-pound requirement come from?


Okie John

[NH Shooter]

Where does the seven-pound requirement come from?

Seven pounds is my own arbitrary benchmark for a lightweight rifle, unloaded but with optic package.

[okie john]

Seven pounds is my own arbitrary benchmark for a lightweight rifle, unloaded but with optic package.

OK, makes sense.


Okie John

[NH Shooter]

I offer the following for consideration in this discussion;

ASH556 and I have already made this point: have the days of the bolt action come-and-gone as the ideal platform for a rifle of this purpose?

Exhibit A

32954

My AR "Scout" rifle;

Weight as shown (minus magazine): 7 pounds, 4 ounces
AOL: 33.5" (stock adjusted to preferred LOP)
Optic: fixed 2.2x, 4.9" eye relief
Trigger: Geissele SSA
Upper: 16-inch ELW BFH with mid-length gas system
Lower: A5 RE with A5H3 buffer

Exhibit B

32953

What level of precision is the rifle capable of? In this case, the rifle has consistently proved to be sub 1.5 MOA (more commonly about 1.2 MOA as per this target) using ammo that is designed specifically for optimum terminal performance under a wide variety of conditions (Speer LE 75 grain Gold Dot bonded soft point).

What else am I looking for in a general purpose rifle?


Light weight with compact dimensions for ease of grab-and-go carry - check
Good ergonomics that allow ease-of-handling from a variety of field positions - check
A simple yet effective sighting system suitable for the rifle's intended purpose - check
A crisp, combat-proven trigger that allows the rifleman to make precision shots - check
A rifle that can be shot for extended periods of time with little shooter fatigue - check
A rifle with unquestioned reliability under the most adverse of conditions - check
A commonly-available cartridge wholly suitable for defensive purposes and capable of putting food on the table - check
Wide selection of ammunition and magazines - check

As much as I am tempted to put together a bolt action to serve this same purpose, I'm left with the feeling that it will be no better than what I already have, and certainly not as good on at least a few of the points above. The biggest advantage I see for the bolt gun is a higher level of precision, but the AR is already capable of more than enough precision for this role.

If I lived in a restricted state, I believe the case for the bolt action becomes more compelling. But other than that, the amount of money needed for another rifle would buy plenty of training and ammo, which might very well prove to be a better investment (at least for me).

As is always the case, YMMV.

[Bigghoss]

Three advantages I see in favor of a bolt gun over a good semi auto

1. Cost
2. Politically correct, depending on the specific gun. A wood stocked M1A is probably less scary looking than The Fix or something in a chassis that looks like an AR15. But a bolt action that looks like a bolt action is going to be less off putting.
3. legal in every state and most countries.

Aside from those three I can't think of a compelling reason not to look at a semi auto. I suppose there maybe something about working a bolt that some folks like. Same as shifting a manual transmission.

[okie john]

I offer the following for consideration in this discussion;

ASH556 and I have already made this point: have the days of the bolt action come-and-gone as the ideal platform for a rifle of this purpose?

Exhibit A

My AR "Scout" rifle;

Weight as shown (minus magazine): 7 pounds, 4 ounces
AOL: 33.5" (stock adjusted to preferred LOP)
Optic: fixed 2.2x, 4.9" eye relief
Trigger: Geissele SSA
Upper: 16-inch ELW BFH with mid-length gas system
Lower: A5 RE with A5H3 buffer

Exhibit B

What level of precision is the rifle capable of? In this case, the rifle has consistently proved to be sub 1.5 MOA (more commonly about 1.2 MOA as per this target) using ammo that is designed specifically for optimum terminal performance under a wide variety of conditions (Speer LE 75 grain Gold Dot bonded soft point).

What else am I looking for in a general purpose rifle?


Light weight with compact dimensions for ease of grab-and-go carry - check
Good ergonomics that allow ease-of-handling from a variety of field positions - check
A simple yet effective sighting system suitable for the rifle's intended purpose - check
A crisp, combat-proven trigger that allows the rifleman to make precision shots - check
A rifle that can be shot for extended periods of time with little shooter fatigue - check
A rifle with unquestioned reliability under the most adverse of conditions - check
A commonly-available cartridge wholly suitable for defensive purposes and capable of putting food on the table - check
Wide selection of ammunition and magazines - check

As much as I am tempted to put together a bolt action to serve this same purpose, I'm left with the feeling that it will be no better than what I already have, and certainly not as good on at least a few of the points above. The biggest advantage I see for the bolt gun is a higher level of precision, but the AR is already capable of more than enough precision for this role.

If I lived in a restricted state, I believe the case for the bolt action becomes more compelling. But other than that, the amount of money needed for another rifle would buy plenty of training and ammo, which might very well prove to be a better investment (at least for me).

As is always the case, YMMV.

My only real issue with this is limitation(s) the 5.56 cartridge. If we could get the same benefits in 308, then I'd be all over it. But I don't think we're there yet.


Okie John

[JHC]

I offer the following for consideration in this discussion;

ASH556 and I have already made this point: have the days of the bolt action come-and-gone as the ideal platform for a rifle of this purpose?

Exhibit A

32954

My AR "Scout" rifle;

Weight as shown (minus magazine): 7 pounds, 4 ounces
AOL: 33.5" (stock adjusted to preferred LOP)
Optic: fixed 2.2x, 4.9" eye relief
Trigger: Geissele SSA
Upper: 16-inch ELW BFH with mid-length gas system
Lower: A5 RE with A5H3 buffer

Exhibit B

32953

What level of precision is the rifle capable of? In this case, the rifle has consistently proved to be sub 1.5 MOA (more commonly about 1.2 MOA as per this target) using ammo that is designed specifically for optimum terminal performance under a wide variety of conditions (Speer LE 75 grain Gold Dot bonded soft point).

What else am I looking for in a general purpose rifle?


Light weight with compact dimensions for ease of grab-and-go carry - check
Good ergonomics that allow ease-of-handling from a variety of field positions - check
A simple yet effective sighting system suitable for the rifle's intended purpose - check
A crisp, combat-proven trigger that allows the rifleman to make precision shots - check
A rifle that can be shot for extended periods of time with little shooter fatigue - check
A rifle with unquestioned reliability under the most adverse of conditions - check
A commonly-available cartridge wholly suitable for defensive purposes and capable of putting food on the table - check
Wide selection of ammunition and magazines - check

As much as I am tempted to put together a bolt action to serve this same purpose, I'm left with the feeling that it will be no better than what I already have, and certainly not as good on at least a few of the points above. The biggest advantage I see for the bolt gun is a higher level of precision, but the AR is already capable of more than enough precision for this role.

If I lived in a restricted state, I believe the case for the bolt action becomes more compelling. But other than that, the amount of money needed for another rifle would buy plenty of training and ammo, which might very well prove to be a better investment (at least for me).

As is always the case, YMMV.

I agree the AR carbine is the most capable do EVERYTHING rifle for me. And really, it was the notorious GUNKID that I first saw make those arguments many many years ago on one forum or another as the ban hammer chased him. ;)

But it's valid. I have ARs but don't own a bolt gun. Have owned a few but have never managed to hit on one so sweet I'd hang onto it.

I can see a light Ruger American 6.5 CM as a longer range capable deer rifle without investing a fortune. I can also see a lot of fun from a Ruger Range Rifle in .300 BO set up with that ultralight LEU you have pictured. Just small handy and fun. But this is getting into sort of aesthetics vs pure practicality. Which is why leverguns are so appealing too.

[rob_s]

The AR in 5.56 does a lot, for sure. And I don't even currently own a bolt gun and won't if I can't get one to match my specs.

For me, it would be an inexpensive way to get into a bigger caliber for hunting and other purposes, and something I can leave in the car (minus optic, hence my iron sight requirement) that wouldn't impact me financially and which would make me morally feel a little less bad (letting a bolt-action into the hands of a turd rather than an evil baby killing AR).

I *don't* need or want a precision bolt action. AR would do just as good IMO. I *don't* want a $4k+ Brockman custom (well, I do, but not enough to spend). At that cost I'd just take the AR.

[Rex G]

Left left-eye-dominance has done much to keep me from impulse-buying bolt rifles, and I now have only one, with a left-hand action. My only other two bolt rifles, with right-hand actions, went away long ago. For years, I thought my “someday-“ custom scout might be a lever scout, but, an AR-based light-weight rifle, perhaps with a bore larger than .223/5.56, might be a best choice, if I can ever get over the “dingus down” factor, which I drilled into my brain when using TDA pistols in the Nineties. I was a latecomer to the AR15 platform, not even considering an AR15* until 2002, when I first had the prospect of carrying a patrol rifle, and that meant an AR15 or Mini-14, with the soonest-available cert classes being for those attending with an AR15.

Col. Cooper’s “Don’t get caught with your dingus down” applied to the safety levers of TDA pistols, such as the Beretta 92/M9 and most of the various First-through-Third-Generation S&W models. Having already been conditioned to the 1911/BHP-style safety, my personal mantra, to cover all safety levers, became “align safety lever with the enemy.” Well, unless one has a select-fire AR15, it is ready to fire when the Dingus is Down, and on-safe when the lever is aligned with the enemy. True, one sweeps the safety off, in the same operational direction as off-safe-ing a 1911/BHP, but the final “fire” position is when the lever is oriented vertically, and the AR15 is on-safe when the lever is aligned with the enemy, and no amount of training seems to totally remove that cognitive dissonance.

Interestingly, I solved the cognitive dissonance problem, to a large degree, by using a single-side safety, rather than ambi, so that my left thumb would not physically encounter the “dingus-down.” (I bump the safety lever to off-safe with my left index finger’s base knuckle, as I first saw being recommended by Kyle Lamb.)

As I aged-out of the PD’s athletic, timed, fast-paced patrol rifle qual, the AR15’s defensive importance, to me, waned. (Bad knees, not over-weight.) Recently, I took up the the AR15 again, in early 2018, and, well, found that some level of the cognitive dissonance had returned. (I have a BCM Lightweight Middy, and two complete lowers.) Sigh. I will have some work to do, or, remain a lever-rifle-man.

*As I became old enough to be aware of military rifles, I was influenced by vets who done tours in Vietnam, some of them close relatives, none of whom had a high opinion of the M-16.

[JHC]

The AR in 5.56 does a lot, for sure. And I don't even currently own a bolt gun and won't if I can't get one to match my specs.

For me, it would be an inexpensive way to get into a bigger caliber for hunting and other purposes, and something I can leave in the car (minus optic, hence my iron sight requirement) that wouldn't impact me financially and which would make me morally feel a little less bad (letting a bolt-action into the hands of a turd rather than an evil baby killing AR).

I *don't* need or want a precision bolt action. AR would do just as good IMO. I *don't* want a $4k+ Brockman custom (well, I do, but not enough to spend). At that cost I'd just take the AR.

I much prefer bolt actions with irons no matter how rudimentary. Ruger should option a Ranch Rifle that way.

[ASH556]

I keep liking this thread as it progresses. From a bolt gun perspective, I've tried everything from custom 16" 700 builds to full-on 26" precision bolt guns with varying degrees of optics. The capacity is always the hangup for me on them. DBM's seem to have progressed drastically in the last 5 or so years since Magpul-produced .308 mags became a thing. Even so, it ruins the handling/slinging of the rifle IMHO.

To me, barring the use of an AR (legal, perception, or whatever reason), the next best option is a levergun. The tubular magazine keeps the capacity higher than a bolt gun but without the protrusions. Also, I like that you can top it off while keeping it ready to fire (like you would run a shotgun. I'm not sure what caliber would be ideal. It seems usually they want a rimmed cartridge. 30-30 isn't the end of the world, but something 25-caliber based on a 357 cartridge with Blackout-ish ballistics would be cool.

**ETA: Apparently that's already been done and it's called a 256 Win Mag. Created in the 60's, dumped in the 90's according to Wiki. Still, I think a levergun based on that or something similar could do a lot of good. (Get the velocity up higher than 357 mag and use a lighter bullet for flatter trajectory/better range, use a Gold-Dot Bullet).

[mtnbkr]

I keep liking this thread as it progresses. From a bolt gun perspective, I've tried everything from custom 16" 700 builds to full-on 26" precision bolt guns with varying degrees of optics. The capacity is always the hangup for me on them. DBM's seem to have progressed drastically in the last 5 or so years since Magpul-produced .308 mags became a thing. Even so, it ruins the handling/slinging of the rifle IMHO.

To me, barring the use of an AR (legal, perception, or whatever reason), the next best option is a levergun. The tubular magazine keeps the capacity higher than a bolt gun but without the protrusions. Also, I like that you can top it off while keeping it ready to fire (like you would run a shotgun. I'm not sure what caliber would be ideal. It seems usually they want a rimmed cartridge. 30-30 isn't the end of the world, but something 25-caliber based on a 357 cartridge with Blackout-ish ballistics would be cool.

**ETA: Apparently that's already been done and it's called a 256 Win Mag. Created in the 60's, dumped in the 90's according to Wiki. Still, I think a levergun based on that or something similar could do a lot of good. (Get the velocity up higher than 357 mag and use a lighter bullet for flatter trajectory/better range, use a Gold-Dot Bullet).

I've never seen a 7mm Waters levergun, but I think that would be nifty. It would be just a barrel change on a 30-30 levergun. I also looked into converting a 357mag levergun to 357max. Doable as far as I can tell, but nobody had done it yet (this was 10 years ago).

Chris

[okie john]

I keep liking this thread as it progresses. From a bolt gun perspective, I've tried everything from custom 16" 700 builds to full-on 26" precision bolt guns with varying degrees of optics. The capacity is always the hangup for me on them. DBM's seem to have progressed drastically in the last 5 or so years since Magpul-produced .308 mags became a thing. Even so, it ruins the handling/slinging of the rifle IMHO.

To me, barring the use of an AR (legal, perception, or whatever reason), the next best option is a levergun. The tubular magazine keeps the capacity higher than a bolt gun but without the protrusions. Also, I like that you can top it off while keeping it ready to fire (like you would run a shotgun. I'm not sure what caliber would be ideal. It seems usually they want a rimmed cartridge. 30-30 isn't the end of the world, but something 25-caliber based on a 357 cartridge with Blackout-ish ballistics would be cool.

**ETA: Apparently that's already been done and it's called a 256 Win Mag. Created in the 60's, dumped in the 90's according to Wiki. Still, I think a levergun based on that or something similar could do a lot of good. (Get the velocity up higher than 357 mag and use a lighter bullet for flatter trajectory/better range, use a Gold-Dot Bullet).

I've also been around the horn on this issue. Here's how it breaks down for me:

DBMs are fine if a) I'm carrying a dozen or more on my person AND b) the weapon is designed for rapid reloads, and c) I can get unlimited replacements from the unit supply room and pay for them with a mild ass-chewing. If I lose one for a bolt rifle, I'm in a world of hurt plus they get shockingly expensive once the rifle goes out of production--just ask anyone with a Winchester 88 or 100 or an HK SK-7. If I can't solve a lone rifleman's problem with five rounds of 308 or 30-06, then I need to move before the bad guys can adjust artillery onto my position.
Prone can be a problem with lever guns. So is shooting with a sling.
Lever guns are rarely stocked for use with a scope. At my age, that matters a lot.
Tube magazines don't work well with pointed bullets, and blunt bullets limit your reach, which is the whole point of having a long gun in the first place. If I'm going to tolerate the limitations of a tubular magazine, then I want a 12-gauge.
Wildcats and odd cartridges are nice on paper but the point of a general-purpose rifle is that you can find ammo almost anywhere. 30-30 fills that niche nicely, but lacks reach.

With all of that in mind, I'm back to a Model 70 Winchester in 30-06 or 308.


Okie John

[JHC]

I keep liking this thread as it progresses. From a bolt gun perspective, I've tried everything from custom 16" 700 builds to full-on 26" precision bolt guns with varying degrees of optics. The capacity is always the hangup for me on them. DBM's seem to have progressed drastically in the last 5 or so years since Magpul-produced .308 mags became a thing. Even so, it ruins the handling/slinging of the rifle IMHO.

To me, barring the use of an AR (legal, perception, or whatever reason), the next best option is a levergun. The tubular magazine keeps the capacity higher than a bolt gun but without the protrusions. Also, I like that you can top it off while keeping it ready to fire (like you would run a shotgun. I'm not sure what caliber would be ideal. It seems usually they want a rimmed cartridge. 30-30 isn't the end of the world, but something 25-caliber based on a 357 cartridge with Blackout-ish ballistics would be cool.

**ETA: Apparently that's already been done and it's called a 256 Win Mag. Created in the 60's, dumped in the 90's according to Wiki. Still, I think a levergun based on that or something similar could do a lot of good. (Get the velocity up higher than 357 mag and use a lighter bullet for flatter trajectory/better range, use a Gold-Dot Bullet).

.30-30 is pretty hard to beat. Unless the ranges go long it's an incredibly efficient killer of medium game. Penetrates like the dickens with nil meat loss. My .30-30 is what makes my new .44 so illogical. But . . . Wind River Lite.

[rob_s]

IThe capacity is always the hangup for me on them.


DBMs are fine if a) I'm carrying a dozen or more on my person AND b) the weapon is designed for rapid reloads, and c) I can get unlimited replacements from the unit supply room and pay for them with a mild ass-chewing. If I lose one for a bolt rifle, I'm in a world of hurt plus they get shockingly expensive once the rifle goes out of production--just ask anyone with a Winchester 88 or 100 or an HK SK-7. If I can't solve a lone rifleman's problem with five rounds of 308 or 30-06, then I need to move before the bad guys can adjust artillery onto my position.

yeah, to piggyback on John's reply, if you're worried about mag capacity and using a bolt gun, you're doing it wrong.

[ASH556]

yeah, to piggyback on John's reply, if you're worried about mag capacity and using a bolt gun, you're doing it wrong.

Isn’t the whole point of the scout rifle to do as good a job as possible of replicating the firepower of a battle rifle or carbine in sort of a do-all capacity? Something that looks more PC? Hence the scope mounted forward of the receiver for faster loading?

[mtnbkr]

yeah, to piggyback on John's reply, if you're worried about mag capacity and using a bolt gun, you're doing it wrong.

One of the use cases for my 308 is ground-stalking black bears in the mountains. One shot will probably do it, but since I'll be on the same operational plane as the bear, I'd rather have a few more shots on board. If I go through all 9, a fast reload won't make much difference.

Chris

[GJM]

Isn’t the whole point of the scout rifle to do as good a job as possible of replicating the firepower of a battle rifle or carbine in sort of a do-all capacity? Something that looks more PC? Hence the scope mounted forward of the receiver for faster loading?

In Jeff Cooper's mind, the purpose of a scout rifle was to carry a handy size and weight bolt gun, in a caliber powerful and flat shooting enough to reach out there and deliver a hurting blow, with desirable shooting characteristics like an easy to run bolt, appropriate shape and length stock, good trigger, shooting sling, and reasonable capacity. This rifle would allow you to boondock in the backcountry, take any game in North America, and defend yourself as individual rifleman in big country (as opposed to a many person, close urban combat scenario).

At the time he envisioned and developed the scout concept, we did not have well constructed .223 bullets, ergonomic AR carbines with free float tubes and good triggers, calibers other than .223/5.56 in an AR, or quality low power variable scopes. Jeff would never have considered an AR or .223 appropriate as a scout rifle, but times and the technology have changed, and I bet he would warm up to something like my lightweight Wilson .308 AR.

[NH Shooter]

I'm truly lusting this one (https://www.sako.fi/en-us/rifles/sako-85/85-carbonlight);


33605

[OlongJohnson]

I didn't see the weight anywhere on that page.

[NH Shooter]

I didn't see the weight anywhere on that page.

Five pounds - https://www.eurooptic.com/sako-85-carbonlight-stainless-308-win-2025in-bbl-11in-twist-jrscf16.aspx

Reviews indicate 5.3 pounds.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Since we are now two+ years since this thread was started, I’m wondering if the off-thexshekf market has improve at all? Is it yet possible to get the following all in one gun?

.308
Controlled round feed
Open top bolt (for easier single-round loading)
18 in “lightweight” barrel
Threaded
Iron sights that don’t have to be removed to install scope


Not quite there apparently. Have you looked at the Ruger Guide Gun?

https://ruger.com/products/guideGun/specSheets/47118.html

Deviations are:
It is a long action, available in 30/06, which is about as prolific as .308, perhaps even more so
20" barrel instead of 18"
A little beefy at 8.1 lbs.

[Lost River]

With only one day to hunt before Christmas eve, I filled my tag with this young cow.


http://i.imgur.com/C4wmqRU.jpg (https://imgur.com/C4wmqRU)


MUCH further than I normally am comfortable shooting with a 20" .308 at moving game, the circumstances were what they were. I had to scramble about a mile up to get into the area where they were at (or where I figured they would be when I got up there). Long story short, they were ghosting through the mountain mahoganies when I found them and leaving the area. A couple quick laser shots and I twisted my turret and shot.

I dialed for 600, and they were still moving, so I figured about 615 yards when I touched the trigger. I got very lucky.

This was the first and only time I have ever actually caught a 155 Scenar bullet in an animal. Later when skinning the offside shoulder, my dad found the projectile in the offside hide. Penetrated both shoulders. I actually try to shoot behind the shoulders to save the meat ( I am a meat hunter, hence the cow tags), but i tagged this one dead center in the shoulder. The cow was walking and I gave it a bit of a lead, so what happened during the time of flight, I don't know, but I hit the shoulder. Oh well.

I won't complain too much though, as the freezer is full.


http://i.imgur.com/TH12NvO.jpg?1 (https://imgur.com/TH12NvO)

[rob_s]

Not quite there apparently. Have you looked at the Ruger Guide Gun?

https://ruger.com/products/guideGun/specSheets/47118.html

Deviations are:
It is a long action, available in 30/06, which is about as prolific as .308, perhaps even more so
20" barrel instead of 18"
A little beefy at 8.1 lbs.

what kills me most about this rifle is that it means they *could* make it correctly...

ETA: This thing is looking pretty badass. Makes me wonder how that picatinny rail is held on and whether the barrel attachment point couldn't be modded to hold a rear sight...

RUGER® SCOUT RIFLE
LIPSEY'S DISTRIBUTOR EXCLUSIVE
MODEL NUMBER: 6804 (https://ruger.com/products/scoutRifle/specSheets/6804.html)
https://ruger.com/productImages/6804/detail/1.jpg

Stock American Walnut
Front Sight Protected Blade
Rear Sight Adjustable
Capacity 10
Thread Pattern 5/8"-24
Barrel Length 16.10"
Overall Length 37" - 38.50"
Material Stainless Steel
Finish Matte Stainless
Barrel Feature Flash Suppressor
Length Of Pull 12.75" - 14.25"
Twist 1:10" RH
Weight 6.7 lb.
Grooves 6

[Bigghoss]

I don't know for sure but I think all the mounting holes on the Savage rifles are in the same places so I think you could get a Savage 110 Scout and ditch the sights and forward rail and attach a regular scope rail and sights off a Hog Hunter.

The whole thing is way harder than it needs to be.

[HCM]

Isn’t the whole point of the scout rifle to do as good a job as possible of replicating the firepower of a battle rifle or carbine in sort of a do-all capacity? Something that looks more PC? Hence the scope mounted forward of the receiver for faster loading?

A scout rifle (or any bolt gun) is not a battle rifle. That was a fantasy. Col Cooper made many great contributions like the four safety rules, color codes of awareness etc but in his later years he also fell into a lot of trying to re-fight the Boer war. Bolt guns were on the way out as fighting rifles in WWI and were obsolete by WWII. They just hadn’t been fully replaced yet.

The scout rifle is a good general purpose hunting rifle that you could fight with in a pinch but it does not have “firepower” and you would be at a significant disadvantage. Given this disadvantage and the need to shoot and scoot, I think a suppressor is a requirement.

The forward mounted scope was an attempt to fill the niche now occupied by LPVO and RDS. It wasn’t a bad soloution at the time but we have better options now. My understanding is Cooper also favored the forward mounted scope because he was cross eye dominant.

[Drang]

A scout rifle (or any bolt gun) is not a battle rifle. That was a fantasy. Col Copper made many great contributions like the four safety rules, color codes of awareness etc but in his later years he also fell into a lot of trying to re-fight the Boer war. Bolt guns were on the way out as fighting rifles in WWI and were obsolete by WWII. They just hadn’t been fully replaced yet.
I was planning on making substantially this same point.

Ironic, really, when you consider how often Col. CoOper made the sneer "Solution in search of a problem" at an invention he didn't care for.

[NH Shooter]

A scout rifle (or any bolt gun) is not a battle rifle.

The scout rifle is a good general purpose hunting rifle that you could fight with in a pinch...

The forward mounted scope was an attempt to fill the niche now occupied by LPVO and RDS. It wasn’t a bad soloution at the time but we have better options now.

Agree on all of these points. The only thing I would add is insistence on excellent precision capability (.75 MOA or better) and a truly good trigger.

IMO, a quality lightweight (7 to 7.5 lbs. with scope) bolt action with a DBM and LPVO would fit the description and serve the role well: a rifle you can carry all day with the ability to reach out far with great precision.

[Chuck Whitlock]

what kills me most about this rifle is that it means they *could* make it correctly...

QFT!



ETA: This thing is looking pretty badass. Makes me wonder how that picatinny rail is held on and whether the barrel attachment point couldn't be modded to hold a rear sight...

RUGER® SCOUT RIFLE
LIPSEY'S DISTRIBUTOR EXCLUSIVE
MODEL NUMBER: 6804 (https://ruger.com/products/scoutRifle/specSheets/6804.html)
https://ruger.com/productImages/6804/detail/1.jpg

Stock American Walnut
Front Sight Protected Blade
Rear Sight Adjustable
Capacity 10
Thread Pattern 5/8"-24
Barrel Length 16.10"
Overall Length 37" - 38.50"
Material Stainless Steel
Finish Matte Stainless
Barrel Feature Flash Suppressor
Length Of Pull 12.75" - 14.25"
Twist 1:10" RH
Weight 6.7 lb.
Grooves 6

Ruger sells these:

http://shopruger.com/M77-GSPA-Scout-Barrel-Plug-Screw-Kit/productinfo/90376/

Your idea is probably better than mine of a rear sight mounted to the pic rail. Anyone got the ear of someone at XS? Since they already produce a full-length rail w/rear sight, just a replacement forward section w/ integral rear sight would be a cool option.

[That Guy]

Makes me wonder how that picatinny rail is held on

Four vertical bolts that screw into holes in the barrel.


A scout rifle (or any bolt gun) is not a battle rifle. That was a fantasy. Col Cooper made many great contributions like the four safety rules, color codes of awareness etc but in his later years he also fell into a lot of trying to re-fight the Boer war. Bolt guns were on the way out as fighting rifles in WWI and were obsolete by WWII. They just hadn’t been fully replaced yet.

I don't think you are giving the late Colonel quite enough credit. The scout rifle wasn't meant to be a battle rifle, but a handy rifle for an individual rifleman.

(Of course, whether this idea of a lone person with their rifle is more or less a stupid fantasy than using a bolt action rifle as a combat rifle on purpose is, I suppose, a matter of opinion.)

[StraitR]

Between work, holiday madness, and one or more of us being sick, I was finally able to get out and shoot my CTR build today. I ended up having to order some slightly higher rings (medium), to push the Razor 1-6 further forward to get proper eye relief. I only took some cheap AE 150gr FMJ, but it looks like the rifle will have no issue meeting Tikka's accuracy guarantee. I'm not a great shot, and the 1-6 isn't the best scope for shooting tiny groups, but the last 3 shot group was just over an inch. After zeroing, we shot at a 8" gong at 100y from a few positions, including supported against a pole and unsupported. These are the two most likely shooting positions for hunting in Central FL. The Wilderness Rhodesian sling works really well.

Had a POI shift of about 3" low, and 1" left when mounting the SiCo Omega (direct thread). At least, that's what I perceived. I re-zeroed with the can on, so I'll do some testing with it on/off next weekend. I also have a couple flavors of Hornady to test (165 GMX for hogs and 150 Interlock SP for deer).

While the CTR + my optic choice fails to make the good Colonel's scout weight, and also misses the mark on a few other traditional scout characteristics, it's absolutely perfect for what I need it to do. I'm very happy with it, and look forward to shooting more next weekend.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4835/46681739462_299a382b67_b.jpg

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7854/45818823045_a39d822290_b.jpg

[StraitR]

It was late, proofreading was sloppy... "...150 Interlock SP for *deer". Sorry, dear. :p

[NH Shooter]

I was finally able to get out and shoot my CTR build today.

I like!

I believe this rifle has a 1:11 twist. In my rifle (1:10) the Federal Fusion 180 is amazingly accurate, equal to or better than the GMM 175. You may want to pick up a box and give it a try.

How are you liking the CTR trigger and DBM set up?

[StraitR]

I like!

I believe this rifle has a 1:11 twist. In my rifle (1:10) the Federal Fusion 180 is amazingly accurate, equal to or better than the GMM 175. You may want to pick up a box and give it a try.

How are you liking the CTR trigger and DBM set up?

You are correct on the 1:11 twist. I work for a Hornady LE distributor, so I have to represent. :)

I hear the 168 A-MAX Precision shoots really well out of these too, so I plan on trying some of that down the road. My purpose for this gun is 0-600m, most of which will be under 100m, which was the driving factor in optic selection. I may pick up a SWFA SS fixed 10x to shoot for groups eventually. Right now, it's more of a in your face hunting/GP set up, as most shots here are less than 40m in dense Central FL woodlands/swamps.

I've told the story here a few times, but injured my right hand (trigger finger) about nine years ago, pretty badly. Severed tendons, an artery, and nerves. It's all technically repaired, but a great deal of scar tissue still prevents it from bending at the first knuckle (Distal-Intermediate Phalange) . This kind of ruined me for "trigger feel". I'm pretty sensitive to weight and length, but that's about it. Too much of either, and my finger fatigues and cramps quickly (hurts for weeks). This is why I'm stuck with 1911's and SFA guns. That was the long way of saying, I'm not the guy to ask about triggers. Short answer, "I love it". lol I've not bothered to measure weight, but it works fine to me, so I'm not going to mess with it.

Some of my initial impressions....

- The safety. I was on the fence, not having any experience with it, but I find it intuitive.
- Barrel profile. Some over on the Hide say it's similar to a "Light Palma", if that means anything to you. I like that it's thicker than a sporter profile, but not overly thick or heavy. Threading was a must have, and this seems to take the Omega weight well. I also like the extra bit of barrel shoulder, since I want to direct thread (avoid extra weight of a muzzle device and ASR mount in the Omega - this lightens/shortens it quite a bit). I was able to do 5 shot strings and still touch the barrel. The suppressor was a different story, but at least I could bare hand the barrel and use an oven mitt to check if it had backed off at all.
- Smooth action. Wow. I mean, every bolt gun should all be like this. No exceptions.
- DBM. Works as advertised. Wish there was a flush fit though. I bought a 5rd mag for dear hunting, even though I'm not required to in FL (Semi-autos have hunting capacity restrictions, bolt actions do not). With the can, it balances carries fine with my hand in front of of the DBM. Without the can, not so much. That said, it's thick brush here, so there's not a lot of opportunities to carry rifles in one hand.
- Bottom metal. I like the aluminum. Feels solid, and robust, so I happily accept the marginal weight penalty.
- Stock. Works as advertised, and LOP is perfect for me with one stock spacer (came with two, tried none, one is perfect). I REALLY like the vertical grip on the CTR.

So far, I've found nothing to dislike about the CTR. Honestly, without my pig of an optic (21.something ounces) and suppressor (14 ounces), it feels quite handy. As is, it shoots like a pussycat though, making follow-ups easy, which I like quite a bit.

[Notorious E.O.C.]

StraitR, like you, I have recently re-read this entire thread. I think I'm about four months behind you in reaching a similar conclusion:


This will be my one and only bolt action, used for everything one would use a bolt action for, so there will definitely be compromises. I know I want to shoot it, and shoot it a lot if I have my way. In other words, this will be my learning rifle.

I have a line locally on a T3x Lite Compact in 7mm-08, sub-$500 NIB. Resistance is weakening...

[okie john]

StraitR, like you, I have recently re-read this entire thread. I think I'm about four months behind you in reaching a similar conclusion:

I have a line locally on a T3x Lite Compact in 7mm-08, sub-$500 NIB. Resistance is weakening...

I'd keep looking if you plan to shoot much.

A quick review of ammo prices shows that 308 is about a dime per shot cheaper than 7-08. That's for similar loads in both cartridges, and does not include milspec 7.62 NATO. $100 for every 1,000 rounds adds up quickly.


Okie John

[StraitR]

@StraitR (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=3620), like you, I have recently re-read this entire thread. I think I'm about four months behind you in reaching a similar conclusion:



I have a line locally on a T3x Lite Compact in 7mm-08, sub-$500 NIB. Resistance is weakening...

I don't think you could make a better rifle choice, particularly at the price. If I didn't have the suppresser, and enjoy using so much, I would have likely gone with the Lite Compact.

I spent a lot (A LOT!) of time reading and contemplating caliber. I had the rifle picked out relatively quickly, but debated caliber for a couple months. For me, the decision was either 308 or 6.5cm, and I ultimately chose 308 due to my priorities (<100m hunting and <500m plinking being tops), superior availability (cartridges/components) and bulk pricing.

I'll be putting up the AR's for 2019, focusing on this rifle and the fundamentals, with the overall goal of becoming a better rifleman.

[Robinson]

StraitR Have you had any issue with the Omega loosening while shooting? I have the ASR mount installed on my rifle because it locks and because originally I had two rifles set up to use the Omega and the mount made it easy to swap it between them. But it does add some weight and a little length.

[Dorsai]

34267

My wish list would be a double stack magazine so that a 10rd didn't extend below the trigger guard, ala Lee-Enfield. Second would be an after market rear sight with better adjustability and a forward extension with a charger clip guide. That would be more true to the original scout rifle concept.

[StraitR]

@StraitR (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=3620) Have you had any issue with the Omega loosening while shooting? I have the ASR mount installed on my rifle because it locks and because originally I had two rifles set up to use the Omega and the mount made it easy to swap it between them. But it does add some weight and a little length.


When I first attached it, and zeroed (about 5 shots), it loosened itself just a touch. I snugged it back down, and it didn't move after that (about 20 rounds). I did not over tighten it though, either time, as I didn't want to risk getting it stuck. Just good and snug.

I wouldn't use the direct thread on a semi-auto, but I'm comfortable with it on a bolt gun. Totally different firing schedules.

[Notorious E.O.C.]

I'd keep looking if you plan to shoot much.

A quick review of ammo prices shows that 308 is about a dime per shot cheaper than 7-08. That's for similar loads in both cartridges, and does not include milspec 7.62 NATO. $100 for every 1,000 rounds adds up quickly.

Understood. I'm trying to decide if the ammo price is worth the recoil reduction, particularly in a lightweight rifle. I would be more inclined to favor .308 if I were going StraitR's route of the CTR over the Lite Compact.

[StraitR]

Understood. I'm trying to decide if the ammo price is worth the recoil reduction, particularly in a lightweight rifle. I would be more inclined to favor .308 if I were going @StraitR (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=3620)'s route of the CTR over the Lite Compact.

Take a look at 6.5Creedmoor instead of the 7mm-08. Both availability and prices are much better in the 6.5cm, and most hunting offerings are actually cheaper than their 308win counterpart. Hornady has offered a lot of cartridges, and kept the prices down, to drive the popularity. S&B recently started producing a 140gr FMJBT for plinking (about $13/box).

Between price, availability, and the PRS crowd, it's really taken off. Every major manufacturer is now making a 6.5cm gun in at least one flavor, most of which are sporter type hunting rifles. There are even 6.5cm offerings in the Ruger No. 1 (https://ruger.com/products/no1/specSheets/21319.html) and Springfield M1A (https://www.springfield-armory.com/products/m1a-loaded-6-5-creedmoor/), two very storied rifles with with traditionally conservative offerings. It seems 6.5cm is here to stay.

Any "deal" on a rifle not in 308 or 6.5cm will have those savings eaten up quickly in ammo price disparity.

[Chuck Whitlock]

34267

My wish list would be a double stack magazine so that a 10rd didn't extend below the trigger guard, ala Lee-Enfield. Second would be an after market rear sight with better adjustability and a forward extension with a charger clip guide. That would be more true to the original scout rifle concept.

Ruger's polymer magazines are quite a bit shorter than the metal ones.

http://shopruger.com/Ruger-Scout/products/2140/

[Nephrology]

Take a look at 6.5Creedmoor instead of the 7mm-08. Both availability and prices are much better in the 6.5cm, and most hunting offerings are actually cheaper than their 308win counterpart. Hornady has offered a lot of cartridges, and kept the prices down, to drive the popularity. S&B recently started producing a 140gr FMJBT for plinking (about $13/box).

Between price, availability, and the PRS crowd, it's really taken off. Every major manufacturer is now making a 6.5cm gun in at least one flavor, most of which are sporter type hunting rifles. There are even 6.5cm offerings in the Ruger No. 1 (https://ruger.com/products/no1/specSheets/21319.html) and Springfield M1A (https://www.springfield-armory.com/products/m1a-loaded-6-5-creedmoor/), two very storied rifles with with traditionally conservative offerings. It seems 6.5cm is here to stay.

Any "deal" on a rifle not in 308 or 6.5cm will have those savings eaten up quickly in ammo price disparity.

My only hesitation re: 6.5CM vs .308 is the barrel life. 2500 rounds is a lot for a bolt gun, sure, but vs. .308 it's a stark difference.

I've been pricing out bolt guns, still, but realistically my other fiscal priorities will keep this as a fantasy for now.

That said... I've been cooking up bolt gun builds in my head. Here is a cheaper one Ive been kicking around :

Ruger American Predator $380
SWFA 10x Fixed $299
TPS 30MM $95
Magpul Hunter $280

Total : $1,054

That said, for not much more money I could get a Bergara HMR-14 or a Tikka T3x CTR and the same glass, which is why I probably won't buy this and instead will just wait patiently. I might also just wait for a good deal on a quality scope; My guess is that the rifle will not be the limiting factor for me early on.

[Dorsai]

Ruger's polymer magazines are quite a bit shorter than the metal ones.

http://shopruger.com/Ruger-Scout/products/2140/

Still longer than it should be. Oh well. Did run across a competitor though today. The Tikka T3x Arctic. Can't say I like the color scheme, but it's a 10rd magazine. The civilian version of the Canadian C19.

34348

[StraitR]

My only hesitation re: 6.5CM vs .308 is the barrel life. 2500 rounds is a lot for a bolt gun, sure, but vs. .308 it's a stark difference.

I've been pricing out bolt guns, still, but realistically my other fiscal priorities will keep this as a fantasy for now.

That said... I've been cooking up bolt gun builds in my head. Here is a cheaper one Ive been kicking around :

Ruger American Predator $380
SWFA 10x Fixed $299
TPS 30MM $95
Magpul Hunter $280

Total : $1,054

That said, for not much more money I could get a Bergara HMR-14 or a Tikka T3x CTR and the same glass, which is why I probably won't buy this and instead will just wait patiently. I might also just wait for a good deal on a quality scope; My guess is that the rifle will not be the limiting factor for me early on.

The barrel life is a negative when compared to 308. That said, most calibers fall short compared to the relatively slow 30 cal when it comes to barrel life. I think .243 is like 1500 rounds, or close to it. Don't hear anyone complaining about it, because most people just shoot a a couple boxes a year zeroing/hunting. Firing schedule plays a big role too. If you're shooting for groups (a box or two over a couple hours), that's much different than practical rifle drills. I want to shoot a lot, without limitation, so that was a major factor in my decision to go 308 (along with bulk ammo price and availability).

When sitting down and defining my purpose, I decided that I don't have a need for the ballistic benefits of 6.5cm at distance, since my shooting will be <600m and in. In fact, most of that will be <200m. But that's me and my needs, goals, and purposes. I came to the conclusion that nothing really compares to 308 for scout/general purpose/practical rifle use. Different calibers for different purposes. I understand the lure of 6.5's softer recoil, especially if the goal is an ultra-light rifle. I think the CTR shoots great, but it's just over 10 pounds with my optic choice, Rhodesian sling, ITS stock pack, and empty mag. Add another 14oz with the suppressor, and 308 recoil gets pretty stinking mild. Wouldn't want to hump it up and down mountains though.

I considered a more price friendly Ruger American Predator too, but like you, automatically factored in a Magpul stock. That immediately puts you in T3X Lite pricing, and kills the "I'll save some money" vibe. Of course, the CTR is a couple hundred more, but I found it easy to justify vs the $700 RAR + Magpul stock combo.

[Nephrology]

The barrel life is a negative when compared to 308. That said, most calibers fall short compared to the relatively slow 30 cal when it comes to barrel life. I think .243 is like 1500 rounds, or close to it. Don't hear anyone complaining about it, because most people just shoot a a couple boxes a year zeroing/hunting. Firing schedule plays a big role too. If you're shooting for groups (a box or two over a couple hours), that's much different than practical rifle drills. I want to shoot a lot, without limitation, so that was a major factor in my decision to go 308 (along with bulk ammo price and availability).

When sitting down and defining my purpose, I decided that I don't have a need for the ballistic benefits of 6.5cm at distance, since my shooting will be <600m and in. In fact, most of that will be <200m. But that's me and my needs, goals, and purposes. I came to the conclusion that nothing really compares to 308 for scout/general purpose/practical rifle use. Different calibers for different purposes. I understand the lure of 6.5's softer recoil, especially if the goal is an ultra-light rifle. I think the CTR shoots great, but it's just over 10 pounds with my optic choice, Rhodesian sling, ITS stock pack, and empty mag. Add another 14oz with the suppressor, and 308 recoil gets pretty stinking mild. Wouldn't want to hump it up and down mountains though.

I considered a more price friendly Ruger American Predator too, but like you, automatically factored in a Magpul stock. That immediately puts you in T3X Lite pricing, and kills the "I'll save some money" vibe. Of course, the CTR is a couple hundred more, but I found it easy to justify vs the $700 RAR + Magpul stock combo.

Out here I have access to a 1000yd range so 6.5CM is kinda tempting. Lower recoil is nice too. I'd likely be happy with either.

[StraitR]

Out here I have access to a 1000yd range so 6.5CM is kinda tempting. Lower recoil is nice too. I'd likely be happy with either.

I see 6.5cm and 308win as two different calibers for two different purposes. While somewhat interchangeable, one excels at precision at the cost of barrel life, while the other is more GP/Practical rifle friendly but gives up some ballistic advantages (simplicity) at distance. Go with whichever best suits your needs. Of course, softer recoil is always welcomed.

[David S.]

Nm....

[Lost River]

Between work, holiday madness, and one or more of us being sick, I was finally able to get out and shoot my CTR build today. I ended up having to order some slightly higher rings (medium), to push the Razor 1-6 further forward to get proper eye relief. I only took some cheap AE 150gr FMJ, but it looks like the rifle will have no issue meeting Tikka's accuracy guarantee. I'm not a great shot, and the 1-6 isn't the best scope for shooting tiny groups, but the last 3 shot group was just over an inch. After zeroing, we shot at a 8" gong at 100y from a few positions, including supported against a pole and unsupported. These are the two most likely shooting positions for hunting in Central FL. The Wilderness Rhodesian sling works really well.

Had a POI shift of about 3" low, and 1" left when mounting the SiCo Omega (direct thread). At least, that's what I perceived. I re-zeroed with the can on, so I'll do some testing with it on/off next weekend. I also have a couple flavors of Hornady to test (165 GMX for hogs and 150 Interlock SP for deer).

While the CTR + my optic choice fails to make the good Colonel's scout weight, and also misses the mark on a few other traditional scout characteristics, it's absolutely perfect for what I need it to do. I'm very happy with it, and look forward to shooting more next weekend.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4835/46681739462_299a382b67_b.jpg

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7854/45818823045_a39d822290_b.jpg


Thread Bump!

Tis the Season!


:)

[StraitR]

Oh yeah. Confirming zero with Hornady 150gr Interbond this weekend. A friend and I will be calling for coyotes later that evening.

One thing I’ve noticed about the CTR with 21 ounce Razor 1-6, it does not carry well one handed without the suppressor due to the mags pushing your hand further forward. Fortunately I don’t ever shoot it without the can, but still.

[Inkwell 41]

If a guy wanted irons installed on his bolt rifle, especially if there was some fabrication wanted, what gunsmiths are still out there that can do that sort of work? Brockman isn't taking on new work, Robar is closing its doors.

[rob_s]

If a guy wanted irons installed on his bolt rifle, especially if there was some fabrication wanted, what gunsmiths are still out there that can do that sort of work? Brockman isn't taking on new work, Robar is closing its doors.

I’d love to know this as well. All I really want is a Winchester m70 featherweight with a cut-down, threaded barrel and irons sights installed.

[David S.]

I’d love to know this as well. All I really want is a Winchester m70 featherweight with a cut-down, threaded barrel and irons sights installed.

I'm sure it's buried in this thread somewhere, would you mind re-explaining your personal preference for fixed vs DBM mags? I seem to recall Randy Cain's course influenced this preference.

[okie john]

If a guy wanted irons installed on his bolt rifle, especially if there was some fabrication wanted, what gunsmiths are still out there that can do that sort of work? Brockman isn't taking on new work, Robar is closing its doors.

Plenty of people can add aftermarket sights without a lot of fuss. How do you define fabrication?


Okie John

[rob_s]

I'm sure it's buried in this thread somewhere, would you mind re-explaining your personal preference for fixed vs DBM mags? I seem to recall Randy Cain's course influenced this preference.

For me, one of the benefits to a bolt-action is the low-snag, slim profile. I'm also not really interested in or worried about sticking 10, 15, 30 round magazines in the gun. Even when you use only 5-round detachable magazines, they seem to still protrude from the bottom.

I also, right or wrong, perceived detachable magazines as being less reliable, increase the count of failure points, and more prone to operator error. Although I do like, in theory, the concept that (I believe the Steyr Scout came with?) a detachable mag can be dropped down a notch on the catch to allow for single-round loading from the top.

[rob_s]

Plenty of people can add aftermarket sights without a lot of fuss. How do you define fabrication?

I "hear" this all the time on the internet, yet it never seems to come with a "click this link to see the guy I know/used/am familiar with/etc."

[okie john]

I "hear" this all the time on the internet, yet it never seems to come with a "click this link to see the guy I know/used/am familiar with/etc."

So how do you define fabrication?


Okie John

[rob_s]

So how do you define fabrication?

I don't really care to.

I just want to know who can cut down the barrel on a Winchester M70, thread it, and install a set of barrel-mounted iron sights.

And if someone has an idea of cost, particularly a breakdown separating the sight work from the barrel work, and approximate lead times, that would be great.

[Inkwell 41]

Plenty of people can add aftermarket sights without a lot of fuss. How do you define fabrication?


Okie John

I'll define it as I'd like a folding, receiver mounted peep, capable of windage adjustment, embedded in a Picatinny rail, mounted on the rear bridge. I'd like to be able to fold in down and mount an optic and flip it up when the optic is removed.

[okie john]

I'll define it as I'd like a folding, receiver mounted peep, capable of windage adjustment, embedded in a Picatinny rail, mounted on the rear bridge. I'd like to be able to fold in down and mount an optic and flip it up when the optic is removed.

Redfield used to make a base with a folding peep screwed onto the back of it, like this: https://www.ebay.com/p/1301426187 It was adjustable for windage and elevation to a limited extent. It was a set-and-forget system, not something you could crank around every time you changed loads, but it was there if you trashed your scope and needed sights. I once had a guy drill and tap a Weaver base to take one of them. He's out of business now, but anyone who can drill and tap two holes should be able to handle this kind of work. They don't even need to be a gunsmith. Cost for the work was about $20 if I remember correctly.

The problem with having iron sights on a scoped rifle isn't mounting them or finding someone to do the work. It's the fact that the stock weld is different for the two sight systems. If the rifle is stocked for use with a scope, then it's extremely difficult to get your head low enough to see the iron sights. If it's set up for the irons that you rarely use, then your head will be waving around up in the air to get behind the scope. This problem doesn't exist with an AR because most sights are pretty close to the same height as the optic.

If you decide that you'll use the rifle with a scope most of the time, then having a second scope already zeroed and set in rings is a simpler and probably more practical solution. If you decide to use it with irons most of the time, then I'd look at moving your optic forward and mounting it very low.


Okie John

[mtnbkr]

I'll define it as I'd like a folding, receiver mounted peep, capable of windage adjustment, embedded in a Picatinny rail, mounted on the rear bridge. I'd like to be able to fold in down and mount an optic and flip it up when the optic is removed.

There is the Williams Gun Sight Ace In The Hole Scope Rail (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KCLYML0/). On my Encore I've found it requires taller scope rings than I'd like, so I no longer use it with a scope. It does, I suppose, give me an option for a scope, but to use it with lower rings I have to remove the peep assembly. :(

Chris

[okie john]

There is the Williams Gun Sight Ace In The Hole Scope Rail (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KCLYML0/). On my Encore I've found it requires taller scope rings than I'd like, so I no longer use it with a scope. It does, I suppose, give me an option for a scope, but to use it with lower rings I have to remove the peep assembly. :(

You can unscrew the aperture and have a functional ghost ring. It still might be too tall.


Okie John

[GJM]

A solution I have used, is the Talley aperture sight that goes onto their rear sight base. Another possibility is an Aimpoint carried in your pack.

When I have harvested a game animal, and am packing meat for hours or days using the rifle for defense against bears, it is nice to be able to pull the scope and go with irons or a sealed emitter red dot.

[DacoRoman]

Just finished this thread. Great read and info.

I will have some decisions to make, subject to a few compromises. A decision making algorithm is in order, to help me decide!

All I know now is,
- it will be .308 for my particular needs
- I think having a DBM for my need of travel with the rifle unloaded in restrictive states, and then have easy and quick loading once at camp seems like a big plus
- I’ll put a 1-5 or 1-8x on it, in a traditional mount
- since it will be an overlanding centric rifle I may be willing to take a bit of a hit on weight

What I’d love is to get a custom job so I can add a bottom for more economical mags, threaded barrel and barrel mounted sights, but I want to keep cost lower, so at this point I’m willing to forgo those things and get some sort of Tikka compact with a 20” barrel, hopefully lightweight and threaded, or take the weight hit and get a Tikka CTR...decisions, decisions.

[mtnbkr]

You can unscrew the aperture and have a functional ghost ring. It still might be too tall.


Okie John

Tried that. It works physically, but I haven't tried shooting it that way.

Chris

[okie john]

Tried that. It works physically, but I haven't tried shooting it that way.

It works like a champ. The rear sight will seem to disappear, which puts the “ghost” in “ghost ring.” I have a pile of those apertures around here someplace.


Okie John