Scout rifle, circa 2016

[David S.]

Re: Ruger Guide Gun

Interesting option. A bit heavy 8lbs and out of my price range.

Do like that v notch sight.

Curious about the barrel mounted forward sling point and how it might effect POI when slung up.

[okie john]

Re: Ruger Guide Gun

Interesting option. A bit heavy 8lbs and out of my price range.

Do like that v notch sight.

Curious about the barrel mounted forward sling point and how it might effect POI when slung up.

Using a tight sling on barrel-mounted sling stud will definitely affect your POI, but you could use the stud on the stock.


Okie John

[GJM]

Using a tight sling on barrel-mounted sling stud will definitely affect your POI, but you could use the stud on the stock.


Okie John

Sling mounted to barrel is another way of indicating it is a carry sling and not a shooting sling. Think it was designed for heavy rifles, where the barrel mounted sling protected your support hand from being cut in recoil.


Appreciate this info, along with rob_s's chart. It begs the question of how important is controlled feed action vs. push feed specific to the Tikka models? Also, how would the Tikka CTR rank as to the scout concept?

In a perfect world, pre-64 controlled feeding. However, this is all about compromises. The pre-64 is a .30-06 length action (not .308), it is heavy, doesn't lend itself to a DBM, and it limits large scopes because of clearance with the bolt handle. Controlled feeding is an obvious choice on a DGR, but less clear with a .308 class rifle. Tikka CTR is borderline heavy but has interesting features.

[HCM]

I haven't seen a LAW rifle in the flesh, but they have at least one intriguing option that's germane to this thread:

http://www.legendaryarmsworks.com/product/the-bobcat/

Heck, it's even controlled round feed.

My LGS had one of their professional models in 6.5 Creedmoor. Nice well balanced rifle, appears to be Model 70 action.

[rob_s]

1) the Tikka T3 or T3X Compact (20 inch barrel and stock that has a spacer for standard or shorter LOP) is surely a candidate.

2) Rob, I applaud your effort to compile this info, but the most important specification to me is missing, and that is the one that is very hard to reduce to a number. "That" being how the rifle feels, and how that translates into shoot-ability. I can pick up two rifles that weigh the same, and have the same length barrel, but feel completely different. And before you ask, while I know it when I feel it, I can't reduce it to a specification. Heck, I can have a different feeling about two otherwise identical pre-64 model 70 guns, depending upon how the bolt runs in my hand, how the trigger feels, and subtle difference in stock shape/recoil pad profile.

3) as to Tikka, I would consider the following. I have previously posted extremely positive comments about the Tikka from Jim Brockman. Lost River who really knows his way around bolt guns has said he could have saved much time and money if he simply bought two Tikka rifles, good glass and a bunch of ammo on day one, instead of all the stops he has taken along the way. If you could see the wall in our cabin right now, I have six expensive Brockman model 70 based custom rifles, two Benelli M2 shotguns and two Tikka rifles out.

I'm not really trying to compile a list for anyone but me. I was simply sharing my own list. For me, the list of specs across the top is important. As you point out, I can't put "makes my dick hard and my palms sweat" on there as that's subjective.

Everyone's interest in these rifles is different, and everyone's list of criteria is different. The link I posted is to my criteria, for others to use or not use. The tikka may well blow your and Brockman's skirts up, but the limitations I listed pretty much completely eliminate it for me. If I wanted a rifle as limited as the Tikka, I'd buy the M70.

[rob_s]

The product info PDFs for Sako have the "God's measuring system" and I believe they are all 'controlled feed'.

Here are two: http://cdn1.sako.fi/sites/default/files/85Bavarian.pdf for the Bavarian and http://cdn1.sako.fi/sites/default/files/85Hunter.pdf for the Hunter.

Are those available here? I have a hard time telling what is, and isn't, US available from Sako. I was able to find, for example, an 85 Hunter in 7mm for sale, but no irons.

[Wondering Beard]

Are those available here? I have a hard time telling what is, and isn't, US available from Sako. I was able to find, for example, an 85 Hunter in 7mm for sale, but no irons.

I don't know for sure but going by their website (http://www.sako.fi/distributor/united-states), the distributor is Beretta

[David S.]

Are those available here? I have a hard time telling what is, and isn't, US available from Sako. I was able to find, for example, an 85 Hunter in 7mm for sale, but no irons.

EuroOptic: Sako Bavarian (http://www.eurooptic.com/sako-bavarian-308-win-jrsbv16.aspx)
They have it in full stock too if you're interested in that sort of thing (http://www.eurooptic.com/sako-bavarian-carbine-308-win-jrsbc16.aspx)
I see 5 round mags are only $136.

[SMD]

My LGS had one of their professional models in 6.5 Creedmoor. Nice well balanced rifle, appears to be Model 70 action.

Keeping in mind that you've seen one live and I haven't, it does look like they borrow some important M70 features like the 3-pos wing safety and a standing ejector. The extractor, however, looks totally unique to LAW. Second image on this page:

http://www.legendaryarmsworks.com/704-action/

What was your LGS' price on that Creedmoor?

[HCM]

Keeping in mind that you've seen one live and I haven't, it does look like they borrow some important M70 features like the 3-pos wing safety and a standing ejector. The extractor, however, looks totally unique to LAW. Second image on this page:

http://www.legendaryarmsworks.com/704-action/

What was your LGS' price on that Creedmoor?

$1799.

[Gadfly]

Rob S... On your chart, IF you were to expand the Ruger American section to include the American Ranch and the American Preditor, you could check off the threaded barrel part. I have had my eye on those as an inexpensive beater/hunting rifle. The trigger is a rip off of the Savage acutrigger. For the cost, they beat the hell out of mossberg and some other cheap bolt guns...

The Ranch is only in .223, .300 and one other (.243??)

The Predator is 6.5 creedmore and .308 if memory serves.

For an affordable rifle, that .308 predator would be the tits if only it had adjustable sights.

[RoyGBiv]

The Predator is 6.5 creedmore and .308 if memory serves.
Was just looking at the Predator...
http://www.ruger.com/products/americanRiflePredator/models.html
.223 / 22-250 / 204 / 243 / 6.5cm / 308

[JodyH]

I think a lot of the rifles in this thread are lightweight hunting rifles, not scout rifles.
It may be nit picking but #nitlivesmatter .

[David S.]

Rob S... On your chart, IF you were to expand the Ruger American section to include the American Ranch and the American Preditor, you could check off the threaded barrel part. I have had my eye on those as an inexpensive beater/hunting rifle. The trigger is a rip off of the Savage acutrigger. For the cost, they beat the hell out of mossberg and some other cheap bolt guns...

The Ranch is only in .223, .300 and one other (.243??)

The Predator is 6.5 creedmore and .308 if memory serves.

For an affordable rifle, that .308 predator would be the tits if only it had adjustable sights.

Not Rob, but they don't appear to offer anything over the Tikkas.

[Gadfly]

Not Rob, but they don't appear to offer anything over the Tikkas.

Except almost half the cost.

[SteveB]

The product info PDFs for Sako have the "God's measuring system" and I believe they are all 'controlled feed'.

Here are two: http://cdn1.sako.fi/sites/default/files/85Bavarian.pdf for the Bavarian and http://cdn1.sako.fi/sites/default/files/85Hunter.pdf for the Hunter.

Sako's CRF is CRF in name only. The extractor actually only controls the case when the round is already mostly in the chamber. True CRF requires a properly adjusted Mauser-type claw extractor (like the Model 70 pre-64 or Classic actions) and controls the round throughout the feeding and extracting cycles.

[RoyGBiv]

Except almost half the cost.

And threaded barrels

[SteveB]

I haven't seen a LAW rifle in the flesh, but they have at least one intriguing option that's germane to this thread:

http://www.legendaryarmsworks.com/product/the-bobcat/

Heck, it's even controlled round feed.

I've had a couple of rifles from Mark Bansner (before Legendary Arms), and they are first-rate. His stocks (used to be known as Hi-Tech) are pretty nice as well.

[Sigfan26]

Ruger Guide Gun doesn't come in 308, but it does in 30-06. Looks more expensive, but sights on barrel and a 20" threaded barrel. Already 8 pounds though.

http://ruger.com/products/guideGun/images/47118.jpg

http://ruger.com/products/guideGun/models.html

At that point, the .300 Win becomes tempting. 8 pound 30-06 is good... 8 pound .300 Win is gooder


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[vaspence]

FWIW Cabelas is running the Tikka T3s out the door for $100 off. I believe the regular blued T3 Lite is $479, less than Whittakers. I picked up a .308 CTR for $799 +tax.

[OlongJohnson]

Dredged the old memory banks and found some interesting comments from heavy-use bolt-action shooting pros over here (I hope this is OK, Tom, I checked the rules and didn't see any saying links that are on-topic to other forums are a no-go):

http://www.africahunting.com/threads/rifle-lessons-learned-from-the-zimbabwe-professional-hunter-proficiency-exam.2604/

http://www.africahunting.com/threads/pushing-through-myths-and-misconceptions-the-push-feed-action.18069/

[LGChris]

Some updates on the Canadian Ranger Rifle by Sako:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/09/08/canadian-c-19-ranger-rifle-procurement-begin-2017-will-complete-end-2019/

Still no info on a commercial version, but it sounds like they've finalized the details on the issue-rifle, so maybe that's one step closer to a consumer variant. Wouldn't expect to see anything come to fruition on that front for another couple of years. It sounds like a really nice rifle overall, but from what they've shown of it so far, it seems like it would be a challenge to mount optics with that rear peep on there. I believe it also uses the very pricey proprietary Tikka CTR magazines and it may use the heavier CTR profile barrel, so I wonder about the weight, too.

In any case, I think it's cool that a new bolt action "practical rifle" is being produced and issued to a first-world military unit, even if it's not for a combat role. From what little I've read, in many ways the Canadian Rangers really seem to embody the spirit of what Cooper had in mind with the scout concept to begin with. There is probably something to be learned from what they identified their needs to be when they speced out this rifle.

[okie john]

There is probably something to be learned from what they identified their needs to be when they speced out this rifle.

Definitely.

They never deploy so they can optimize for narrow set of conditions, which might make their procurement process less cumbersome than is typical. Also, since part of their mission is to train and advise other units in Arctic warfare, they've probably seen hundreds if not thousands of examples of everything under the sun, including variants of the FN-FAL, M-16/M-4, AK/Valmet, and all kinds of HKs. That makes it easy to narrow the field from the start. It's also pretty small contract for bolt-action rifles, so there probably aren't a lot of competitors to piss and moan if they don't win.

I'd guess that they were offered the chance to upgrade to the L1A1 and the C-7, but kept the SMLE for reasons that had nothing to do with cost.

But all of this is conjecture without a look at the RFP.


Okie John

[MRW]

Looks like a version with some cosmetic differences will be available in Canada soon.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/09/08/will-soon-able-buy-c-19-canadian-ranger-rifle-tikka-introduces-arctic/

[LGChris]

Looks like a version with some cosmetic differences will be available in Canada soon.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/09/08/will-soon-able-buy-c-19-canadian-ranger-rifle-tikka-introduces-arctic/

Well... that was slightly quicker than I anticipated. Two thoughts:
1. lol, $2100 USD
2. I can't believe they're going with the orange striped stock

[okie john]

Yeah, definitely not cheap.

The orange stock will be sufferable during deer season, but a drag the rest of the time.

A Canadian outfit called Wolverine Supplies (https://www.wolverinesupplies.com/?sortValue=0) is taking pre-orders, so I pinged them to ask how much it weighs. I'm guessing over 9 pounds. Details as I know more.


Okie John

[coldcase1984]

Surprised they didn't go with synthetic for the extreme weather and weight considerations. Hope the irons will fit CTRs, and definitely want some of the less expensive new mags.

[GJM]

I have been north of the Arctic Circle, as far as Inuvik in the NWT. Everything about this rifle seems appropriate for the conditions they experience and the people using it. Wish I could easily find the article on their Rangers in "Up Here" magazine, which covers the Yukon and NWT.

[GJM]

Yeah, definitely not cheap.

The orange stock will be sufferable during deer season, but a drag the rest of the time.

A Canadian outfit called Wolverine Supplies (https://www.wolverinesupplies.com/?sortValue=0) is taking pre-orders, so I pinged them to ask how much it weighs. I'm guessing over 9 pounds. Details as I know more.


Okie John

Didn't someone in this thread call Beretta a few weeks back, and was told no plans to make this rifle available beyond the contracts? They were probably preoccupied working on a fix for the 1301.

[okie john]

Didn't someone in this thread call Beretta a few weeks back, and was told no plans to make this rifle available beyond the contracts? They were probably preoccupied working on a fix for the 1301.

I emailed them, but I'm unwilling to take no for an answer from someone who doesn't have the power to say yes.


Okie John

[GJM]

I bet the head shed at Tikka/Sako/Beretta is doing a victory dance knowing they snuck this big order in before The RobS spreadsheet went around, disqualifying Tikka as a serious bolt gun.

[Lester Polfus]

Didn't someone in this thread call Beretta a few weeks back, and was told no plans to make this rifle available beyond the contracts? They were probably preoccupied working on a fix for the 1301.

I think that may depend on how you ask the question. If you ask "Are you going to sell the Canadian Ranger rifle to the civilian market?" the answer is "no." If you ask "When does the Tikka Artic come out?" the response is "oh it says here that comes out in the fall..."

[SMD]

It's been a while since I've handled a Tikka. Does the safety capture the striker/firing pin as is the case with Mausers and the Steyr SBS family? Or does it just block the trigger?

[RoyGBiv]

In case anyone was wondering, all the Tikkas currently imported, including model numbers, can be found on the bottom of this page.
http://www.berettasupport.com/prices/index.htm
I was looking for Tikkas that were not imported, so I found the list handy.
If anyone in Australia wants to ship me a Battue Lite, I'll start looking at how to do that legally. :rolleyes:

[David S.]

Sorry if this has been previously discussed....
What circumstances would make magazine "top-loading" necessary or strongly preferred?

Rob commented earlier based on his experience in Randy Cain's PR course that unless he had enough fully loaded DBM's to complete the course of fire, it was very impractical/slow to remove DBM, sling rifle, reload mag, recharge rifle and go to work. It was much more efficient to carry loose rounds and top off as necessary. Based on that, he (as I uderstand his argument) places a lot of value on the ability to top of the DBM.

But I guess that begs the question: is this capability necessary in the "real world" or is this an training artifact with no practical application? Or maybe, what circumstances might make this a necessary capability?

I know this is subjective. I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are.

[JAD]

The underlying offenses for 924(c) are supposed to be federal offenses only. That's the reason for the "court of the United States" element. This shouldn't apply to most defensive uses of a firearm equipped with a suppressor.

That goes right in the "not the odds but the stakes" category for me.

[okie john]

Sorry if this has been previously discussed....
What circumstances would make magazine "top-loading" necessary or strongly preferred?

Rob commented earlier based on his experience in Randy Cain's PR course that unless he had enough fully loaded DBM's to complete the course of fire, it was very impractical/slow to remove DBM, sling rifle, reload mag, recharge rifle and go to work. It was much more efficient to carry loose rounds and top off as necessary. Based on that, he (as I uderstand his argument) places a lot of value on the ability to top of the DBM.

But I guess that begs the question: is this capability necessary in the "real world" or is this an training artifact with no practical application? Or maybe, what circumstances might make this a necessary capability?

I know this is subjective. I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are.

Hate to quote myself, but this is from Post 266 from Page 27 of this thread:



In a military sense, I think of topping off as something I would do from a static position while engaging targets that pop up at a distance one or two at a time, with some interval between them. If a target appears unexpectedly, then you just jam the bolt closed and fire. You're never very far from being out of the fight. I also top off while hunting in thick brush with a bolt-action rifle or a revolver. When I shoot, the game vanishes almost instantly. Before I start tracking, I top off in case I got another shot or shots.

I think of a removable magazine as more useful when I've fired all or most of a magazine and I need to stay in the fight (or get back in) as with an M-4 or a Glock. If I have to remove the magazine to top off, rather than just opening the bolt, then I'm out of action for as long as it takes to replace the mag. In that case, I'd go for a tactical reload--slap in a fresh mag to keep the weapon up, then take a moment to top off the first mag, repeating as needed.

So I guess it's nice to have both options, if that makes sense...


Okie John

[David S.]

So, nice to have if zombies or commies invade, but otherwise....meh?

[GJM]

For a primarily hunting oriented bolt, I would rather no DBM, as it is a single item that can deadline the rifle, and spares can be awkward to carry. For a Gunsite/Randy Cain/Keneyathalon/square range rifle, a DBM is boss as long as you have extras. For carry in a state that makes a loaded internal magazine illegal, a DBM is nice to be able to go from empty to loaded quickly.

For real world, if it is truely an emergency load, you better be going for your pistol or going Nike for cover, as neither top loading nor replacing a DBM is likely a good strategy with someone shooting at you or something trying to chew on you.

[Malamute]

A couple situations mentioned recently seem like stripper loading would be useful.

[SteveB]

For a primarily hunting oriented bolt, I would rather no DBM, as it is a single item that can deadline the rifle, and spares can be awkward to carry. For a Gunsite/Randy Cain/Keneyathalon/square range rifle, a DBM is boss as long as you have extras. For carry in a state that makes a loaded internal magazine illegal, a DBM is nice to be able to go from empty to loaded quickly.

For real world, if it is truely an emergency load, you better be going for your pistol or going Nike for cover, as neither top loading nor replacing a DBM is likely a good strategy with someone shooting at you or something trying to chew on you.

DBM's can be very useful when climbing in and out of the deer stand as well!

[GJM]

A couple situations mentioned recently seem like stripper loading would be useful.

Yes, but it does not coexist well with the LPV.

[Malamute]

Good point.

I do like LPVs.

[SteveB]

A couple situations mentioned recently seem like stripper loading would be useful.


IMO, while stripper clips are better than single loading, I'll take a DBM. I've had the experience of getting the empty clip jammed in the notch, buggering the rifle until I could yank the bent clip out. Admittedly this is partly a training issue, but it's harder for me to screw up with the DBM.

[SteveB]

Good point.

I do like LPVs.


You can have both, but it's a compromise. Here's a photo of the top view of a scout rifle action with a stripper clip notch machined into the receiver. The rear sight sits on a Talley base and is removable, so you can mount an LPV on this rifle, but since the rear scope base is farther back, it creates issues with LOP and eye relief.

10365

[Wondering Beard]

A couple situations mentioned recently seem like stripper loading would be useful.

I had been wondering about that as well.

[okie john]

Just heard from Wolverine:


Thanks for your email! The new Ranger Rifle is certainly gathering quite a bit of interest indeed! Unfortunately we haven’t seen any hitting store shelves quite yet here- we’re likely looking at closer to the end of the year before we wind up with any available in-store. If you’re located in the USA, I can’t quote any kind of time-frame as we haven’t received any solid info from our Canadian distributor yet. As a very rough guesstimate, generally it’s around 6-12 months time from when an item hits US shelves until it reaches Canada for sale- I can only assume it would be a similar wait time in the reverse.

If you’re looking for a better timeline, you may be able to get in touch with your local Tikka/Stoeger dealer and see if they can get a more clear delivery date.

As far as the weight of the rifle goes, we haven’t got a proper spec sheet available yet either, although the weight listed for the standard model T3 CTR is 3.7kg (8.14lb) unloaded- with the addition of the iron sights and the denser laminate stock, I’d assume the Canadian Ranger Rifle will be closer to 4kg+ (8.8lb).

If you have any other questions or comments, just let me know. Thanks!


Now you know what I know.


Okie John

[GJM]

Okie John, good get. That is crazy heavy for that rifle. Wonder how much weight a synthetic stock would save -- maybe as much as 2.5 pounds over laminate? As I recall, Lost River's Tikka in the chassis and with glass, weighs well under just the bare Ranger rifle.

[RoyGBiv]

Anyone have a good estimate on the cost of threading a stainless barrel?

[David S.]

Okie John, good get. That is crazy heavy for that rifle. Wonder how much weight a synthetic stock would save -- maybe as much as 2.5 pounds over laminate? As I recall, Lost River's Tikka in the chassis and with glass, weighs well under just the bare Ranger rifle.

As a point of reference, the plastic Ruger GSR is 1 lb lighter than the laminate model. The Ranger is 8.8 lbs (??) and he T3x CTR weighs 7.5 lbs (3.4kg). That makes sense to me.


Looks like a version with some cosmetic differences will be available in Canada soon.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/09/08/will-soon-able-buy-c-19-canadian-ranger-rifle-tikka-introduces-arctic/

If that $2100 MSRP is legit, I'm wondering how they're justifying a roughly $800 premium over the standard T3x CTR.

[Xrslug]

As a point of reference, the plastic Ruger GSR is 1 lb lighter than the laminate model. The Ranger is 8.8 lbs (??) and he T3x CTR weighs 7.5 lbs (3.4kg). That makes sense to me.



If that $2100 MSRP is legit, I'm wondering how they're justifying a roughly $800 premium over the standard T3x CTR.

I'm wondering if the rifle is coming as the full "kit" they showed at SHOT with fitted Pelican case, extra mags etc. I forget all what else was included. But that might explain the price.

[okie john]

Okie John, good get. That is crazy heavy for that rifle. Wonder how much weight a synthetic stock would save -- maybe as much as 2.5 pounds over laminate? As I recall, Lost River's Tikka in the chassis and with glass, weighs well under just the bare Ranger rifle.

I think it would depend on the stocks in question. Ruger's 16" 308 Scout with a synthetic stock (Model 6830) weighs 6.2 lbs. The same rifle with a laminate stock (Model 6801) weighs 7.1 lbs, so that's almost a full pound. The Ruger stock seems to have a shorter forend than the Tikka Atctic 308, so I could see another few ounces there.

When I ponder why the Canadian Rangers went with laminate over synthetic, I keep coming back to three things: brute strength, resistance to extreme cold, and recoverability after a massive blow. The last one seems important for a guy working on his own in the middle of nowhere in extreme conditions. If it gets cold enough, I could how see a crushing blow (being run over by a snowmobile, being dropped onto a hard surface, or having something dropped on it, etc.) might shatter a synthetic stock. It would take a big gouge out of a laminated stock, but the operator could probably make a field-expedient repair that would keep the rifle in action long enough for him to get home. With synthetic, he'd just have to gather up the pieces for turn-in later down the line and get home without a rifle.

Probably one of the reasons they've stayed with a wood-stocked SMLE for so long...


Okie John

[Lost River]

With factory laminate stock, and CDI bottom metal, and 10 round MDT mag= 8#s 3 oz as shown:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Rifles/IMG_1696_zpsxglogg1a.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Rifles/IMG_1696_zpsxglogg1a.jpg.html)

[OlongJohnson]

I molested several Finns at the LGS this afternoon.

The full-stock Sako is a thing of beauty in person. The iron sights are notch and post like basic modern pistols, and much easier for me to see than the tiny beads on Marlins.

Handled a blue T3 Hunter with a walnut stock, as well as a stainless Lite. The walnut just had a livelier feeling to it, even though it's a bit heavier.

I also repeated previous impressions that the bolt on an old T3 (not new T3x) is apt to be slightly slicker on a blued gun than the already super-slick operation on an all-stainless model. Haven't checked it out enough to hypothesize why, but it's been noticeable in at least two back-to-backs between different samples at different stores.

[GJM]

I molested several Finns at the LGS this afternoon.

The full-stock Sako is a thing of beauty in person. The iron sights are notch and post like basic modern pistols, and much easier for me to see than the tiny beads on Marlins.

Handled a blue T3 Hunter with a walnut stock, as well as a stainless Lite. The walnut just had a livelier feeling to it, even though it's a bit heavier.

I also repeated previous impressions that the bolt on an old T3 (not new T3x) is apt to be slightly slicker on a blued gun than the already super-slick operation on an all-stainless model. Haven't checked it out enough to hypothesize why, but it's been noticeable in at least two back-to-backs between different samples at different stores.

I have noticed this for years with Ruger stainless actions, they are much rougher and harder to run the bolt quickly than on blued actions.

[GJM]

After a session shooting my Tikka Compact .308 yesterday, I thought the short LOP option was too short for this particular rifle/optic. Today, I stuck the extension on, that comes with the rifle. It brings LOP to 13.75, which is .25 - .50 longer than I would offer, but with the short throw Tikka bolt, still workable.

Lost River, how do you think the MDT LSS chassis would be for this Tikka, if I plan to primarily shoot with a three position sling, as opposed to a bipod? In particular, will there be enough forward space for my support hand in the shooting sling?

[littlejerry]

With factory laminate stock, and CDI bottom metal, and 10 round MDT mag= 8#s 3 oz as shown:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Rifles/IMG_1696_zpsxglogg1a.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Rifles/IMG_1696_zpsxglogg1a.jpg.html)

That is a nice rifle.

PF (now RF?) has me looking at T3s and optics.

Intrigued by a ~2-10 variable with a mil or MOA reticle on a T3 lite. This may consume my next bonus check..

[okie john]

After a session shooting my Tikka Compact .308 yesterday, I thought the short LOP option was too short for this particular rifle/optic. Today, I stuck the extension on, that comes with the rifle. It brings LOP to 13.75, which is .25 - .50 longer than I would offer, but with the short throw Tikka bolt, still workable.

Lost River, how do you think the MDT LSS chassis would be for this Tikka, if I plan to primarily shoot with a three position sling, as opposed to a bipod? In particular, will there be enough forward space for my support hand in the shooting sling?

I was all horned up over the Tikka Compact, largely because of the LOP, until I coonfingered a Tikka T3x Light. It feels shorter than it is.


Okie John

[DamonL]

There are numerous places to attach more accessory plates if you so desire.


I considered making a track plate for shooting of bags/flat surfaces. As far as gripping, it is really no bad at all.

My one concern is actually the material. I am betting the aluminum is going to be damn cold to be grabbing in sub zero weather. Not that big of a deal though.

In my case, I simply ran my sling strap through one of the side holes. Simple, and required no additional hardware/weight.

The pics are not the best, but they probably explain it better than I can.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Rifles/IMG_1585_zpsq0csmhgx.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Rifles/IMG_1585_zpsq0csmhgx.jpg.html)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Rifles/IMG_1586_zpssohtmj6v.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Rifles/IMG_1586_zpssohtmj6v.jpg.html)


After a session shooting my Tikka Compact .308 yesterday, I thought the short LOP option was too short for this particular rifle/optic. Today, I stuck the extension on, that comes with the rifle. It brings LOP to 13.75, which is .25 - .50 longer than I would offer, but with the short throw Tikka bolt, still workable.

Lost River, how do you think the MDT LSS chassis would be for this Tikka, if I plan to primarily shoot with a three position sling, as opposed to a bipod? In particular, will there be enough forward space for my support hand in the shooting sling?

Maybe a partial answer to your question.

[Lost River]

GJM,

Take the bipod off and it is not bad at all. I would have zero problem rocking the rifle with just a sling, and shooting over a pack, if I was trying to cut weight.

[GJM]

GJM,

Take the bipod off and it is not bad at all. I would have zero problem rocking the rifle with just a sling, and shooting over a pack, if I was trying to cut weight.

Now about with a three position shooting sling like this:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps8p9egsqf.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps8p9egsqf.jpeg.html)

I was also looking at the HS3 stock from MDT, which is a tad heavier, but has a lot more forward sling room. Slung prone is my most common position on the tundra, and for sight in, so I don't want a compromise there.

[Lost River]

I never use a 3 position sling, so I could not give an answer there. I tend to use the VTAC 2 point types.

[John Hearne]

I was also looking at the HS3 stock from MDT, which is a tad heavier, but has a lot more forward sling room. Slung prone is my most common position on the tundra, and for sight in, so I don't want a compromise there.

I realize that you are a Glock shooter and that aesthetics are a non-issue, but I find the HS3 to be far more visually appealing than the LSS.

https://magento-modulardriventec.netdna-ssl.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/1000x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/l/s/lss-homepage-images14_1.jpg

https://magento-modulardriventec.netdna-ssl.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/1000x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/1/5/152505_1060.jpg

[GJM]

I resemble that comment!

John, I think you are just feeling a little insecure because with my HK and .45 Super, and now the Wilson .458 Socom, you are feeling a little under-calibered for a change.

[Rex G]

For a primarily hunting oriented bolt, I would rather no DBM, as it is a single item that can deadline the rifle, and spares can be awkward to carry. For a Gunsite/Randy Cain/Keneyathalon/square range rifle, a DBM is boss as long as you have extras. For carry in a state that makes a loaded internal magazine illegal, a DBM is nice to be able to go from empty to loaded quickly.

For real world, if it is truely an emergency load, you better be going for your pistol or going Nike for cover, as neither top loading nor replacing a DBM is likely a good strategy with someone shooting at you or something trying to chew on you.

Good post; well-said.

I believe quite a few states prohibit loaded long guns inside vehicles, many in their fish and game laws. Here in Texas, this is not the case; loaded/unloaded makes no legal difference, but as I contemplate retirement, and extensive interstate RV/truck/Jeep travel, in the near future, a rifle with a DBM makes sense, even though my heart loves the internal magazine concept.

My LE training has already conditioned me to transition to pistol. (My on-duty long gun is an 870P, not a rifle.) I have a Ruger SRH Alaskan, and hard-cast Buffalo Bore 9mm +P is on my short list.

[OlongJohnson]

Who makes a lever action with a DBM? :)

[Wondering Beard]

Doesn't the Browning BLR have that?

[That Guy]

Browning. The mags are low capacity and expensive, with AFAIK no aftermarket alternatives.

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

[Malamute]

Good post; well-said.

I believe quite a few states prohibit loaded long guns inside vehicles, many in their fish and game laws. Here in Texas, this is not the case; loaded/unloaded makes no legal difference, but as I contemplate retirement, and extensive interstate RV/truck/Jeep travel, in the near future, a rifle with a DBM makes sense, even though my heart loves the internal magazine concept.

My LE training has already conditioned me to transition to pistol. (My on-duty long gun is an 870P, not a rifle.) I have a Ruger SRH Alaskan, and hard-cast Buffalo Bore 9mm +P is on my short list.

That was why I had the shortened No 4 Enfield (also for going through Canada). There have been some home made devices for speed loading lever actions. I'm hoping this fall or winter I may get to mess around with the idea and see if I can come up with an improvement on what Ive seen online.

[Dagga Boy]

Now about with a three position shooting sling like this:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps8p9egsqf.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps8p9egsqf.jpeg.html)

I was also looking at the HS3 stock from MDT, which is a tad heavier, but has a lot more forward sling room. Slung prone is my most common position on the tundra, and for sight in, so I don't want a compromise there.

Please stop posting pictures of that rifle......it is causing possible obsession with getting one issues and I really don't need it....I am telling myself over and over that I really don't need it, and it works until you post pictures.

[GJM]

Don't worry, I have tagged it with your name and will bring it south. Fortunately you have learned to post pictures, so I have a lot to look at and figure what I will trade it for.

[Dagga Boy]

Don't worry, I have tagged it with your name and will bring it south. Fortunately you have learned to post pictures, so I have a lot to look at and figure what I will trade it for.

I have a feeling I am the former owner of a Grayguns HK45C.....

[GJM]

FIFY


I have a feeling I am the former owner of some stuff, including a Grayguns HK45C.....

[Dagga Boy]

FIFY

I tried....;)

[David S.]

While perusing the interwebs instead of doing more productive things, I ran across a rifle from CZ that got my immediate attention.

https://www.czub.cz/en/produkty/kulovnice/medium/cz-557-range-rifle.html

.308
A 20.5" barrel
Detachable mag
Iron sights, weaver rail (no silly scout rail)


The downside is that it weighs around 7.2 pounds bare, according to the specs, but interesting nonetheless.

CZ 550 Carbine (http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-550-carbine-30-06-5-rd-fixed-mag-adj-composite/)

20" barrel
30-06
hinged floorplate mag
iron sights

ETA again: GJM, others unimpressed (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?17007-CZ-550-Carbine) compared to other options. TLDR Why this over lighter, handier M70?

[rob_s]

Now about with a three position shooting sling like this:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps8p9egsqf.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps8p9egsqf.jpeg.html)

I was also looking at the HS3 stock from MDT, which is a tad heavier, but has a lot more forward sling room. Slung prone is my most common position on the tundra, and for sight in, so I don't want a compromise there.

Agree with Nyeti, that gun looks about perfect. Is it threaded or is there just some sort of barrel cap? I think this one was also 30-06, right?

[PNWTO]

Has anyone played with a Ruger Ranch in 300 Blk yet? Seriously considering one.

[Robinson]

Has anyone played with a Ruger Ranch in 300 Blk yet? Seriously considering one.

I examined one at the LGS a few days ago. It seemed much less "cheap" than I thought it would based on things I've read elsewhere. The bolt movement was nice and smooth, the gun is pretty light weight, and the stock seemed okay if a little slick.

The magazine is plastic and I've read they are hit or miss, though Ruger may have resolved the problems. I wish they used a more robust magazine design though. The gun would balance nicely with a suppressor attached.

[okie john]

Has anyone played with a Ruger Ranch in 300 Blk yet? Seriously considering one.

With supersonic loads and a fixed 2.5x Leupold, that would be a most excellent choice for blacktails in the brush around here.


Okie John

[Inkwell 41]

Agree with Nyeti, that gun looks about perfect. Is it threaded or is there just some sort of barrel cap? I think this one was also 30-06, right?

30-06, 18" barrel.

I've been keeping score.

BTW, coveting again. Gotta stop that.

[GJM]

18 inches of barrel, plus threading which in the picture is covered with a protective cap.

[PNWTO]

I don't know if it has been mentioned, but the Hill brothers shared one of their builds over at the HPG forums. (http://hillpeoplegear.com/Forum/tabid/679/forumid/24/threadid/18834/scope/posts/Default.aspx)

https://hillpeoplegear.com/Portals/21/Products/HPG_PracticalRifle_lowres.jpg



We really hadn’t intended to write this thread until Evan had more of a chance to ring the rifle out. However, Evan has a camera and is excited about his new rifle, and folks are getting all stirred up, so... Evan will be posting more pictures, and both an initial shooting review and first field trip report, but asked me to get the ball rolling with the technical aspects of the rifle.

A couple of years ago at Shot, Eric Graves (SSD) suggested to us, that we do a HPG Rifle as part of our back country living system. Evan and I were both intrigued, and at the time, Evan’s only hunting rifle was his Mauser Scout, which is optic limited. With that in mind we decided to kill two birds with one stone, build a proof of concept rifle and get Evan a more capable rifle. However, as I am the gun guy I took the lead on the project. A friend of ours, Robert Nelson, had recently hung out his gunsmith shingle, and we knew from experience that he did good work, so we selected him to be our builder. I spent time at that Shot looking at parts, talking to makers, and in general seeing what was out there. I also got feedback from a variety of friends with different backgrounds and experience levels to gauge what they were interested in and things they liked and disliked on a rifle. The package pretty quickly came together as it was largely an evolution and melding of my Custom Remington, Evan’s Mauser, and my modified RGS.

What we set out to build was an 80-90% solution just like our Ute. We wanted a rifle that would accomplish all tasks well, but maybe not perfectly. The reality is that very few people carry two rifles in the backcountry, and not everyone can afford a quiver of rifles to select from for a given task. Reliability, capability, weight, and cost drove most of the decisions from there. I mention cost because our goal was to build a rifle that folks could afford just like our gear. A custom rifle isn’t going to be cost competitive with mass produced rifles, but on the other hand we didn’t want to make something that your average person couldn’t save up for and purchase if they saw the benefit in what we were doing.

Our basic list of requirements/goals was as follows:

· Capable of taking big game humanely, but in a commonly available caliber

· 6.5lbs bare (unloaded, no optic, no light, no sling)

· Compact to make it easier to work in tight spaces, and for transportation

· Irons

· Ability to mount a variety of optics from an RDS to a high magnification precision scope

· Weather resistant

· 1 MOA accuracy for the first 3rds and then 2 MOA there after

· DBM

· Ability to mount a light

· At a price your common person could afford

· Suppressor compatible and all that goes along with that

And it goes on further in that thread. Interesting to note a quote by Evan further down:

But it wouldn't exist if the poly GSR had been out 2 years ago.

For the record, forget this rifle. Get a poly GSR, put an XS full rail on it, add a light rail to the stock, paint the stock, and call it a day.

[spinmove_]

I don't know if it has been mentioned, but the Hill brothers shared one of their builds over at the HPG forums. (http://hillpeoplegear.com/Forum/tabid/679/forumid/24/threadid/18834/scope/posts/Default.aspx)

https://hillpeoplegear.com/Portals/21/Products/HPG_PracticalRifle_lowres.jpg



And it goes on further in that thread. Interesting to note a quote by Evan further down:

That's one sexy bitch!

[taadski]

That's one sexy bitch!


Are you referring to Scott or the rifle?











:eek:

[spinmove_]

Are you referring to Scott or the rifle?











:eek:

:p

I've never seen a picture of Scott, so...

[Lost River]

I just got back from shooting the T3 in the laminate stock.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Rifles/IMG_1696_zpsxglogg1a.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Rifles/IMG_1696_zpsxglogg1a.jpg.html)


It is definitely easier to shoot with the brake on, as well as the laminate stock being heavier. Average 5 shot groups were about like this:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Targets/IMG_1715_zps1kag0hms.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Targets/IMG_1715_zps1kag0hms.jpg.html)

It is a pretty easy gun to like overall. That said when funds eventually allow going to go with a Mcmillan stock with Edge fill, and put this laminate stock on one of my other T3s. The reason being that this particular gun is one that I tend to climb a lot of mountains with elk and deer hunting and weight is always an issue during those times, versus coyote hunting and other such pursuits.

Overall though, I really like both the detachable mag on the rifle and the total package.

[Lost River]

I took my TRG-22 along to see if the 155 Scenar load I use in the Tikkas would shoot decently in the TRG. I suspected that it would.

Ends up that the TRG and 155 Scenars are a good combo:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Rifles/011-2.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Rifles/011-2.jpg.html)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Targets/IMG_1716_zpsawdgcnqn.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Targets/IMG_1716_zpsawdgcnqn.jpg.html)

The picture is not the greatest but the groups were:

.14
.44
.12

for and average of: .23

If only it went that well every time.. :cool:

[coldcase1984]

That is what Dad used to call "good enough for government work"...;)

[GJM]

Lost River, great report. Can you drop a T3/T3X into a McMillan Edge and still go to AI style magazines?

As to that Hill People rifle and Mr. Hill, I don't see anyone cheating on their current rifle or babe for either. :)

[luckyman]

for and average of: .23

If only it went that well every time.. :cool:

Criminy, help this pistol and shotgun dude out. What was the yardage; 5 yards?
[emoji38]

(I'm assuming 100 yards; hopefully not exposing my ignorance with that statement)

[Lost River]

Criminy, help this pistol and shotgun dude out. What was the yardage; 5 yards?
[emoji38]

(I'm assuming 100 yards; hopefully not exposing my ignorance with that statement)

Yeah 100 yards.

It is no great feat with a TRG. I am out of practice and even when I am in practice, I'm not anything to write home about. It is just that the platform is simply easy to shoot well. If you get a good base, and do the same thing each time, don't come off the gun, it pretty much shoots itself.

Honestly I bet the Tikka T3 is mechanically able to shoot into the .2s with that ammo. The problem is simply that I can't be that repeatable.

I make it a .75" gun instead of a .2" gun.

[GJM]

Those Tikka rifles are almost as shitty as the mods around here.

[Lost River]

Lost River, great report. Can you drop a T3/T3X into a McMillan Edge and still go to AI style magazines?

As to that Hill People rifle and Mr. Hill, I don't see anyone cheating on their current rifle or babe for either. :)

I am pretty sure you can.

I have a Mcmillan Sako hunter stock on a T3 in .300 WM with standard fill.
It will eventually get cut for a .300WM AI mag, as the T3 mag is quite short as far as OAL length goes.
I have a heavy barrel 300 win mag based on an R700 in a chassis that uses AI mags and those loads will not fit in T3 magnum magazines.

[Paul D]

Question for all. The prototypical round for the scout rifle is the 308 Win out of a 16-20" barrel. It's effects on humans is very good. How good is it for game animals (esp. out of that length barrel)? I am talking about up to North American big game within 500 yards (this would probably include plains game in Africa). Is the 30-06 or the 300 WM still better across the spectrum or given today's bullet technologies they are equivalent. I would like to build a scout rifle. I'm certain I will never use it against a human, but a game animal: yes. The 308 is so much cheaper and recoil forgiving to practice with than its bigger brothers.

[GJM]

Question for all. The prototypical round for the scout rifle is the 308 Win out of a 16-20" barrel. It's effects on humans is very good. How good is it for game animals (esp. out of that length barrel)? I am talking about up to North American big game within 500 yards (this would probably include plains game in Africa). Is the 30-06 or the 300 WM still better across the spectrum or given today's bullet technologies they are equivalent. I would like to build a scout rifle. I'm certain I will never use it against a human, but a game animal: yes. The 308 is so much cheaper and recoil forgiving to practice with than its bigger brothers.

I don't think there is a North American game animal that will know the difference between a .308 through the heart and a .300 WM through the heart. The main advantage of the .300 comes from a flatter trajectory that may help you place the bullet better under adverse conditions, or possibly allow the bullet to still expand at a longer distance.

If you want to shoot it a lot, .308 than .06 than .300 WM. For hunting, especially out west or large animals, I would flip that order.

[Lost River]

Question for all. The prototypical round for the scout rifle is the 308 Win out of a 16-20" barrel. It's effects on humans is very good. How good is it for game animals (esp. out of that length barrel)? I am talking about up to North American big game within 500 yards (this would probably include plains game in Africa). Is the 30-06 or the 300 WM still better across the spectrum or given today's bullet technologies they are equivalent. I would like to build a scout rifle. I'm certain I will never use it against a human, but a game animal: yes. The 308 is so much cheaper and recoil forgiving to practice with than its bigger brothers.

I can attest to the fact that elk and mule deer tip over with ease using a .308. The easy shooting characteristics of the cartridge won me over a long time ago, and while I am definitely a .300WM fan for when the ranges get long, I could easily hunt with a .308 for the rest of my days, keep the ranges under 500 yards, and not feel the least bit under armed.

[SteveB]

Question for all. The prototypical round for the scout rifle is the 308 Win out of a 16-20" barrel. It's effects on humans is very good. How good is it for game animals (esp. out of that length barrel)? I am talking about up to North American big game within 500 yards (this would probably include plains game in Africa). Is the 30-06 or the 300 WM still better across the spectrum or given today's bullet technologies they are equivalent. I would like to build a scout rifle. I'm certain I will never use it against a human, but a game animal: yes. The 308 is so much cheaper and recoil forgiving to practice with than its bigger brothers.

I would not try to shoot an elk, for example, at 500 yards with a short .308 rifle. In my mind, a shot on an animal at 500 yards is 300 WM territory. I'm not saying it can't be done with lesser calibers, I'm saying that, for me, considering the unpredictable nature of hunting at longer ranges, the WM gives me more margin for error. Consider that, at 500 yards, a 300 WM 180 grain bullet with a MV of 2960 carries over 500 ft-lbs more energy and drops about 10" less than a .308 165 grain bullet with a MV of 2700. For a rifle with the barrel lengths you have described, the ballistic disadvantage will be even larger. I think a short .308 rifle can be used for the game you specify, I just think 500 is at the edge of the envelope and asking a lot of the shooter.

[Paul D]

I would not try to shoot an elk, for example, at 500 yards with a short .308 rifle. In my mind, a shot on an animal at 500 yards is 300 WM territory. I'm not saying it can't be done with lesser calibers, I'm saying that, for me, considering the unpredictable nature of hunting at longer ranges, the WM gives me more margin for error. Consider that, at 500 yards, a 300 WM 180 grain bullet with a MV of 2960 carries over 500 ft-lbs more energy and drops about 10" less than a .308 165 grain bullet with a MV of 2700. For a rifle with the barrel lengths you have described, the ballistic disadvantage will be even larger. I think a short .308 rifle can be used for the game you specify, I just think 500 is at the edge of the envelope and asking a lot of the shooter.

So with a .308 rifle with a 18-20 inch barrel and a 1-6x (2-8x) optic: Keep the range inside 400 yards; use a ~165 bullet (bonded or monolithic like TSX) at a MV 2700 f/s = 90+% confidence that the animals stated above should go down with a proper shot placement?

[Lost River]

So with a .308 rifle with a 18-20 inch barrel and a 1-6x (2-8x) optic: Keep the range inside 400 yards; use a ~165 bullet (bonded or monolithic like TSX) at a MV 2700 f/s = 90+% confidence that the animals stated above should go down with a proper shot placement?

Pretty much.

Bear in mind that 400 yards is still a long poke.

Set out a white paper plate at 400 yards, with a larger target backer, maybe 3'x3' to see any misses.

Lay down over your pack, wearing the clothes you actually wear while hunting and attempt to put 4 rounds into that paper plate.

Do this out in the scrub brush/true field conditions, rather than an actual public range. 400 yards really is a long poke.

[psalms144.1]

Bear in mind that 400 yards is still a long poke.

Set out a white paper plate at 400 yards, with a larger target backer, maybe 3'x3' to see any misses.

Lay down over your pack, wearing the clothes you actually wear while hunting and attempt to put 4 rounds into that paper plate.

Do this out in the scrub brush/true field conditions, rather than an actual public range. 400 yards really is a long poke.I don't know nuthin' about nuthin' about Scout rifles or the variants being discussed here, but I have, on occasion, launched some bullets at smallish targets at longish ranges. And I can't POSSIBLY echo Lost River's comments strongly enough. Beyond a couple hundred yards, unless you have done A LOT of shooting in the field, know your dope cold and understand intimately the effects of wind/mirage/etc., the "iffy-ness" of shots on game increases geometrically. Of course, I'm a HUGELY conservative hunter, nothing gives me cold sweats like the thought of wounding an animal and losing it...

PS - I hate all of you and your awesome rifles. Just for the record and a precursor for PFestivus 2017...

[okie john]

Pretty much.

Bear in mind that 400 yards is still a long poke.

Set out a white paper plate at 400 yards, with a larger target backer, maybe 3'x3' to see any misses.

Lay down over your pack, wearing the clothes you actually wear while hunting and attempt to put 4 rounds into that paper plate.

Do this out in the scrub brush/true field conditions, rather than an actual public range. 400 yards really is a long poke.

Good idea, except that you should make the backer 5'x3', nail it to a pallet with the long axis vertical and prop that up with 2x4's so it doesn't blow over, and put the paper plate at the top.

Don't ask me how I know that.


Okie John

[SteveB]

So with a .308 rifle with a 18-20 inch barrel and a 1-6x (2-8x) optic: Keep the range inside 400 yards; use a ~165 bullet (bonded or monolithic like TSX) at a MV 2700 f/s = 90+% confidence that the animals stated above should go down with a proper shot placement?

Yes, but you should chrono your load; you want your drops as precise as possible. For .308, you lose roughly 20 fps per inch of barrel, so, if your load is listed at 2700, that's probably from a 24" barrel. Figure 2580 from an 18" barrel, but that's just an estimate. Once you have that all figured out, LR's instructions above are so good, they should be required for all longer distance hunting. If LR's paper plate is 8" in diameter, that's a 2 MOA target at 400, and conditions can work against you. If the vital zone on your animal is 10-12", the 8" plate gives you an edge.

[okie john]

So with a .308 rifle with a 18-20 inch barrel and a 1-6x (2-8x) optic: Keep the range inside 400 yards; use a ~165 bullet (bonded or monolithic like TSX) at a MV 2700 f/s = 90+% confidence that the animals stated above should go down with a proper shot placement?

Maybe.

The animal gets a vote. So does the wind. Also, I wouldn't assume that a factory 165 will go that fast out of a short barrel. You may need to handload for it, and even then it may not go that fast. (http://rifleshooter.com/2014/12/308-winchester-7-62x51mm-nato-barrel-length-versus-velocity-28-to-16-5/)


Okie John

[SteveB]

Good idea, except that you should make the backer 5'x3', nail it to a pallet with the long axis vertical and prop that up with 2x4's so it doesn't blow over, and put the paper plate at the top.

Don't ask me how I know that.


Okie John

Another idea is, once you are zeroed on paper, use a steel target for quick feedback. I use this one:

https://mgmtargets.com/steel-challenge/steel-challenge-8-round-target-set

[XXXsilverXXX]

Are there any rifles that Are like the ruger guide gun, that are worth it in .308... I like the idea of the 30-06 but don't think my shoulder can deal with it anymore...

[Malamute]

Are there any rifles that Are like the ruger guide gun, that are worth it in .308... I like the idea of the 30-06 but don't think my shoulder can deal with it anymore...

Depending on the load, there probably isn't much real difference in recoil between 06 and 308. Shooting 150s or lighter should be tolerable in 06

[David S.]

Are there any rifles that Are like the ruger guide gun, that are worth it in .308... I like the idea of the 30-06 but don't think my shoulder can deal with it anymore...

The GSR?

[XXXsilverXXX]

The GSR?

My only major issue with that is the scope mount is so far forward, I have existing scope I was going to use on the rifle, just didn't have that much eye relief.

[SLN]

A few years ago I purchased a Winchester Model 70 Featherweight in .30-06 manufactured in 1957. My original intention was for this to be a project gun that I was going to turn into a practical rifle and eventually take Randy Cain’s Practical Rifle Class. I haven’t done anything with it yet. The stock needs a new recoil pad and also has some nicks and dings that require some attention. Other than that, I need to get a scope, add a third swivel stud, and get a Ching Sling. However, with all of the positive Tikka experiences that I have read in this thread, I am starting to reconsider my decision. I’m wondering if I should just get a Tikka in .308 (benefits over Winchester: short action and probably better accuracy). I would appreciate any thoughts or advice that you guys may have.

[GJM]

A few years ago I purchased a Winchester Model 70 Featherweight in .30-06 manufactured in 1957. My original intention was for this to be a project gun that I was going to turn into a practical rifle and eventually take Randy Cain’s Practical Rifle Class. I haven’t done anything with it yet. The stock needs a new recoil pad and also has some nicks and dings that require some attention. Other than that, I need to get a scope, add a third swivel stud, and get a Ching Sling. However, with all of the positive Tikka experiences that I have read in this thread, I am starting to reconsider my decision. I’m wondering if I should just get a Tikka in .308 (benefits over Winchester: short action and probably better accuracy). I would appreciate any thoughts or advice that you guys may have.

The pre-64 model 70 and the Tikka are my two favorite practical bolt rifles. Both great performers, but each doing it with a very different approach. The model 70 is more like a 70 series 1911, and the Tikka is more like a Glock or HK. If you can manage it, I would have both. Even if you just leave the pre 64 in the safe, they aren't making any more of them!

[SteveB]

A few years ago I purchased a Winchester Model 70 Featherweight in .30-06 manufactured in 1957. My original intention was for this to be a project gun that I was going to turn into a practical rifle and eventually take Randy Cain’s Practical Rifle Class. I haven’t done anything with it yet. The stock needs a new recoil pad and also has some nicks and dings that require some attention. Other than that, I need to get a scope, add a third swivel stud, and get a Ching Sling. However, with all of the positive Tikka experiences that I have read in this thread, I am starting to reconsider my decision. I’m wondering if I should just get a Tikka in .308 (benefits over Winchester: short action and probably better accuracy). I would appreciate any thoughts or advice that you guys may have.

I'm with GJM on this one, but will take it a step farther. As much as I have deep love for the pre-64 Model 70 .30-06 as a hunting rifle, I'd pick the Tikka as a practical rifle. The shorter bolt lift on the Tikka will allow you to run that bolt hard and fast without worrying about bolt handle clearance. I'd rather shoot .308 than .30-06 in a high-volume course setting. The short action, as you say, is faster. Randy Cain's long gun courses are all about keeping the gun loaded during shooting drills; a reliable DBM system is an advantage. And I'd rather drag the Tikka around in the dirt than my cherry pre-64:

10695

[rob_s]

I'd pick the Tikka as a practical rifle...
Randy Cain's long gun courses are all about keeping the gun loaded during shooting drills; a reliable DBM system is an advantage.

I'm curious if anyone has actually taken the class with a Tikka. I keep coming back to the semi-enclosed bolt and the amount of topping-up I recall doing, and it just doesn't look like it would facilitate that.

Which, if one doesn't believe topping-up from the top is a real-world necessity, may make the enclosed bolt less of an issue, but it seems to me it would be a hindrance for the course at least.

[spinmove_]

I'm curious if anyone has actually taken the class with a Tikka. I keep coming back to the semi-enclosed bolt and the amount of topping-up I recall doing, and it just doesn't look like it would facilitate that.

Which, if one doesn't believe topping-up from the top is a real-world necessity, may make the enclosed bolt less of an issue, but it seems to me it would be a hindrance for the course at least.

This is me completely guessing and theorizing on something while simultaneously being way out of my lane, but if topping off the Tikka from the ejection port was an issue (which we haven't really confirmed if it is or is not an issue yet) would it possibly be better to remove the DBM and top it off from the bottom a la slug changeover on a shotgun? Wild thought, I know, but it just hit me that it could be a possibility on the Tikka. And, of course, I could be completely insane and wrong.

[nycnoob]

I'm curious if anyone has actually taken the class with a Tikka. I keep coming back to the semi-enclosed bolt and the amount of topping-up I recall doing, and it just doesn't look like it would facilitate that.

Which, if one doesn't believe topping-up from the top is a real-world necessity, may make the enclosed bolt less of an issue, but it seems to me it would be a hindrance for the course at least.


There is one next month. I will be there with a Tikka
Practical Rifle class at Southern Exposure Oct 8 - 10, 2016.

I would think that in a course setting the issue of topping off would be less.
I just plan on putting on a dump pouch, like I use with Shotgun, and
dumping all the magazines I have in it. I do not go hunting in the wilderness
but I think this would be a poor solution for tramping around in the outback.

[nycnoob]

This is me completely guessing and theorizing on something while simultaneously being way out of my lane, but if topping off the Tikka from the ejection port was an issue (which we haven't really confirmed if it is or is not an issue yet) would it possibly be better to remove the DBM and top it off from the bottom a la slug changeover on a shotgun? Wild thought, I know, but it just hit me that it could be a possibility on the Tikka. And, of course, I could be completely insane and wrong.

I think you mean just single loading the gun. When that desired there is a dummy magazine
(bobsled) which facilitates loading from the ejection port. I do not think it would be possible
to actually load from the mag well.

[GJM]

With my T3X, you can not reach through the port to load the magazine. However, if you are empty, you can throw a cartridge in the ejection port, and load that cartridge quickly into the chamber. Much easier than with a conventional bolt, where the round has to be pushed down into the action.

[okie john]

I'm with GJM on this one, but will take it a step farther. As much as I have deep love for the pre-64 Model 70 .30-06 as a hunting rifle, I'd pick the Tikka as a practical rifle. The shorter bolt lift on the Tikka will allow you to run that bolt hard and fast without worrying about bolt handle clearance. I'd rather shoot .308 than .30-06 in a high-volume course setting. The short action, as you say, is faster. Randy Cain's long gun courses are all about keeping the gun loaded during shooting drills; a reliable DBM system is an advantage. And I'd rather drag the Tikka around in the dirt than my cherry pre-64:

10695

This.

Also this pic shows one of the problems with the pre-64 stock--it's essentially set up for irons, and puts your head little too low for best results, even when the scope is mounted low. Keep your pre-64 as a shining example of how the 98 Mauser evolved over the years and run something else as a practical rifle.


Okie John

[PNWTO]

I know a lot of folks have mounted lights by screw/glue and rails, but has anyone here done it? Or any mounting way for that matter?

[GJM]

I know a lot of folks have mounted lights by screw/glue and rails, but has anyone here done it? Or any mounting way for that matter?

Most all my practical rifles have a bit of dehorned Weaver rail on the forward left side of the stock to mount a light.

[ASH556]

With my T3X, you can not reach through the port to load the magazine. However, if you are empty, you can throw a cartridge in the ejection port, and load that cartridge quickly into the chamber. Much easier than with a conventional bolt, where the round has to be pushed down into the action.
I don't push rounds into the internal box of my 700 when single loading. Just throw it in and close the bolt. Am I doing something wrong, or is it a Mauser/Winchester controlled feed thing?

[okie john]

I don't push rounds into the internal box of my 700 when single loading. Just throw it in and close the bolt. Am I doing something wrong, or is it a Mauser/Winchester controlled feed thing?

It's a CRF thing. You can screw up some Mauser extractors if you don't feed from the magazine.


Okie John

[SLN]

The pre-64 model 70 and the Tikka are my two favorite practical bolt rifles. Both great performers, but each doing it with a very different approach. The model 70 is more like a 70 series 1911, and the Tikka is more like a Glock or HK. If you can manage it, I would have both. Even if you just leave the pre 64 in the safe, they aren't making any more of them!


I'm with GJM on this one, but will take it a step farther. As much as I have deep love for the pre-64 Model 70 .30-06 as a hunting rifle, I'd pick the Tikka as a practical rifle. The shorter bolt lift on the Tikka will allow you to run that bolt hard and fast without worrying about bolt handle clearance. I'd rather shoot .308 than .30-06 in a high-volume course setting. The short action, as you say, is faster. Randy Cain's long gun courses are all about keeping the gun loaded during shooting drills; a reliable DBM system is an advantage. And I'd rather drag the Tikka around in the dirt than my cherry pre-64:



Thank you for the advice. It looks like I need to pick up a Tikka. My question now is which one? Unless I'm missing something, it looks like Tikka scaled down their offerings with the introduction of the T3x. The CTR is attractive from the perspective of barrel length (20") and overall length (40.2"). However, it looks like it comes in at 7.4 lbs. for just the rifle. Once a scope is mounted would this be too heavy/bulky for Randy's class?

[MistWolf]

A six pound bolt action rifle is a joy to carry, but you'll pay for that joy in recoil. An eight pound rifle is much more pleasant to shoot. I'd rather carry an eight pound bolt action rifle that I was going to shoot a lot than a six pound rifle

[PNWTO]

A six pound bolt action rifle is a joy to carry, but you'll pay for that joy in recoil. An eight pound rifle is much more pleasant to shoot. I'd rather carry an eight pound bolt action rifle that I was going to shoot a lot than a six pound rifle

I would agree if we were talking .30 cal magnums on up, but most of this thread has been .308 centered, with a little .30-06, 7.62x39, .223, .260, and similar mixed in which should all treat the shooter fairly well in lightweight guns for extended range trips and classes. YMMV.

[RoyGBiv]

Thank you for the advice. It looks like I need to pick up a Tikka. My question now is which one? Unless I'm missing something, it looks like Tikka scaled down their offerings with the introduction of the T3x. The CTR is attractive from the perspective of barrel length (20") and overall length (40.2"). However, it looks like it comes in at 7.4 lbs. for just the rifle. Once a scope is mounted would this be too heavy/bulky for Randy's class?

The CTR appears to be the only T3x with a threaded barrel, if that's a feature you desire.
Tikka makes others, but Beretta doesn't import them apparently.

[rob_s]

There is one next month. I will be there with a Tikka
Practical Rifle class at Southern Exposure Oct 8 - 10, 2016.

I would think that in a course setting the issue of topping off would be less.
I just plan on putting on a dump pouch, like I use with Shotgun, and
dumping all the magazines I have in it. I do not go hunting in the wilderness
but I think this would be a poor solution for tramping around in the outback.

I'll be interested to hear your experience.

There is at least some portion of the class that is expressly about topping off, and then later drills where you'll need to top off.

I suppose, if your Tikka has detachable mags, you could accomplish the same thing by dropping the empty mag and inserting a fresh one like you would with a semi-auto but my experience in the class was that topping-up was the preferred method with the M70 I and most of the other students were using.

[SteveB]

A six pound bolt action rifle is a joy to carry, but you'll pay for that joy in recoil. An eight pound rifle is much more pleasant to shoot. I'd rather carry an eight pound bolt action rifle that I was going to shoot a lot than a six pound rifle

Right, but with scope, mount, sling and ammo, an eight pound rifle needs to start out as a six pound rifle.

[SteveB]

Thank you for the advice. It looks like I need to pick up a Tikka. My question now is which one? Unless I'm missing something, it looks like Tikka scaled down their offerings with the introduction of the T3x. The CTR is attractive from the perspective of barrel length (20") and overall length (40.2"). However, it looks like it comes in at 7.4 lbs. for just the rifle. Once a scope is mounted would this be too heavy/bulky for Randy's class?

I have the CTR in 6.5 CM. With scope, sling, no ammo it's 9 lbs 10 oz.

[SteveB]

Most all my practical rifles have a bit of dehorned Weaver rail on the forward left side of the stock to mount a light.

10733

10734

[SteveB]

There is one next month. I will be there with a Tikka
Practical Rifle class at Southern Exposure Oct 8 - 10, 2016.

I would think that in a course setting the issue of topping off would be less.
I just plan on putting on a dump pouch, like I use with Shotgun, and
dumping all the magazines I have in it. I do not go hunting in the wilderness
but I think this would be a poor solution for tramping around in the outback.

This is a great class. I think that topping off is something you do when you have no other option; in a non-DBM rifle, although the option with the Tikka to drop a round into the action and close the bolt is handy. Randy likes to run variations of Rolling Thunder drills in his long gun courses. You have 5 guys on the line, first guy shoots one, reloads, second guy shoots two, reloads, etc. Or first time through, everyone shoots one, reloads; next run everyone shoots two, reloads. The idea being that you keep it going to a rhythm; break the rhythm and be prepared for lots of screaming. It is, essentially, a loading drill. I'm assuming your Tikka came with a 3-round mag? I'd suggest, if you haven't already, you get a supply of the 5-rounders, which will make your life easier:

http://www.berettausa.com/en-us/tikka-t3-extended-magazines-caliber-see-details/s5850374/

[MistWolf]

I would agree if we were talking .30 cal magnums on up, but most of this thread has been .308 centered, with a little .30-06, 7.62x39, .223, .260, and similar mixed in which should all treat the shooter fairly well in lightweight guns for extended range trips and classes. YMMV.

If we were talking about 30 caliber magnums, I'd want the rifle to be even heavier. If we're talking about 7.62x39 or 5.56, the rifle could easily be lighter. I'm talking about rifles in the 308/30-06 class


Right, but with scope, mount, sling and ammo, an eight pound rifle needs to start out as a six pound rifle.

Yes. I have a Remington 700 Mountain rifle in 280 Remington that weighs in at 7 lbs 14 oz with scope, sling and an empty mag. Recoil is stout, even with a Pachmayr Decelerator. It's fine for a few shots, but if the firing schedule is going to be a couple of boxes or more, it becomes a real workout. Heavier rifles in 308/30-06 class calibers are much more pleasant to shoot a lot of rounds from

[GJM]

My PH in Zimbabwe and Zambia carried a 6.5 pound .458 Lott.

[John Hearne]

My PH in Zimbabwe and Zambia carried a 6.5 pound .458 Lott.

Thought being that if the first shot doesn't work, I might as well be unconscious for whatever follows?

[GJM]

I have sub eight pound .375 and .300 WM rifles. They are great to carry and fine to shoot hunting. Wouldn't want to take a course with them, but those calibers would not be my choice for a course, regardless of weight. Same logic for why I carried a 329 and not a 629.

[PNWTO]

I have sub eight pound .375 and .300 WM rifles. They are great to carry and fine to shoot hunting.

I really, really want a 375 H&H. I spent most of my downtime in AFG reading Capstick. Once I get this "practical rifle" sorted out I think my next I Love Me present will be the M70 Safari. I'll probably never take it to Africa but some PNW Elk will feel it.

Also, my next hunting rifle will be the Finnlight in 300 WSM, expect a review around the holidays.

[GJM]

I really, really want a 375 H&H. I spent most of my downtime in AFG reading Capstick. Once I get this "practical rifle" sorted out I think my next I Love Me present will be the M70 Safari. I'll probably never take it to Africa but some PNW Elk will feel it.

Also, my next hunting rifle will be the Finnlight in 300 WSM, expect a review around the holidays.

I think a .375 H&H is an extremely useful caliber. I have taken one to Africa on every trip. They shoot flat enough to harvest plains game, are big enough to protect you in the field from a rogue elephant or Dugga Boy, and can act as a back-up to your heavy rifle if it is damaged. I have lost track of how many plains game I have harvested with .375, but it includes kudu, eland, lechwe, zebra, waterbuck and a bunch I have forgotten. I have also finished a cape buffalo with one, with a shot through the brain, that I started on with a .470 NE, and used .375 to take a lion and leopard with one. For North America, I think .375 is the penultimate brown bear cartridge. The cartridge seems a perfect match for a pre-64 model 70, that holds four down cartridges, and feeds them like crazy.

[1911nerd]

My PH in Zimbabwe and Zambia carried a 6.5 pound .458 Lott.

Wrong thread, George: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19857-Make-me-laugh-the-PF-memes-thread :rolleyes:

[Malamute]

... I think my next I Love Me present will be....

Wait, we can do that?

[PNWTO]

Wait, we can do that?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsABTmT1_M0

[okie john]

Wait, we can do that?

Yep. I buy myself a birthday present every few months to stave off the disappointment of people getting me the wrong stuff.


Okie John

[XXXsilverXXX]

How does the ruger GSR stack up to the tikka t3x Ctr? I have yet to find a local gun store that has one let alone both in my area.

[FOG]

Regarding recoil, I put a mini - brake on my Ruger Scout because my summer match had a high round count and I only weigh 145#. I fired ~180 rounds of 168 grain match grade and wasn't the least bit sore the next day

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk

[XXXsilverXXX]

Well that is comforting, thank you. I do plan on putting my rugged surge on the rifle I pick. How was the accuracy with the different loads?

Regarding recoil, I put a mini - brake on my Ruger Scout because my summer match had a high round count and I only weigh 145#. I fired ~180 rounds of 168 grain match grade and wasn't the least bit sore the next day

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk

[FOG]

Well that is comforting, thank you. I do plan on putting my rugged surge on the rifle I pick. How was the accuracy with the different loads?
Accuracy was best with heavier loads but still acceptable with lighter NATO ammo.

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk

[LGChris]

Quick update on my little Tikka T3x experiment. The local smith cut the barrel to 16.5 and threaded it for the modest price of $100. I got a set of Warne QD rings for the Leupold VXR 1.25-4x and a Wilderness Rhodesian sling. Did some work from the bench earlier this week and put another 80 rounds through it yesterday, standing and sitting/kneeling with the sling at 100-200 yards. Recoil was surprisingly tolerable considering the weight. I feel like I could go out and run another 100 rounds right now. As GJM mentioned, the LOP is a bit short so I may try the stock spacer next time.

I'm pretty happy with this thing so far, especially considering the cost. Everything in the photo (along with the factory 3-round mag and a second 5-round mag) cost a total of $1600. With a loaded 5-round mag, the rig weighs 7.55 lbs. Accurate, light, smooth and reliable action, affordable magazines. Lots to like here.

http://i.imgur.com/e3rldgX.jpg

[GJM]

Quick update on my little Tikka T3x experiment. The local smith cut the barrel to 16.5 and threaded it for the modest price of $100. I got a set of Warne QD rings for the Leupold VXR 1.25-4x and a Wilderness Rhodesian sling. Did some work from the bench earlier this week and put another 80 rounds through it yesterday, standing and sitting/kneeling with the sling at 100-200 yards. Recoil was surprisingly tolerable considering the weight. I feel like I could go out and run another 100 rounds right now. As GJM mentioned, the LOP is a bit short so I may try the stock spacer next time.

I'm pretty happy with this thing so far, especially considering the cost. Everything in the photo (along with the factory 3-round mag and a second 5-round mag) cost a total of $1600. With a loaded 5-round mag, the rig weighs 7.55 lbs. Accurate, light, smooth and reliable action, affordable magazines. Lots to like here.

http://i.imgur.com/e3rldgX.jpg

How is that sling working out compared to a Langlois three position? I just bought some Barnes Vortx 150 grain to try in mine.

[LGChris]

How is that sling working out compared to a Langlois three position? I just bought some Barnes Vortx 150 grain to try in mine.

I've never actually had one of the three position slings on one of my own rifles, so I have limited experience to compare it to. I have used several of the more traditional loop sling designs and this one is much quicker to get into (although, like most nylon slings, it doesn't stay in place on the arm quite as well as leather). It's working great for now, but I imagine that as it wears and the nylon loses some of it's "springiness", the loop will not stay open quite as well on its own. Time will tell.

In looking for some "practical rifle" type drills and standards to try out, I wasn't coming up with much. I remembering seeing something from Cooper (maybe in the Art of the Rifle?) about judging a rifleman by his ability to go from ready to a shooting position other than prone and hit a 10-inch target at 200 yards in under 10 seconds on demand. So I tried that for a while. Getting slung up and into a kneeling position with the Wilderness sling wasn't a problem. Hitting the target was another matter. Although, by that time, I had run out of my good range ammo and had to switch over to some milsurp junk that was in my bag, which had a completely different POI. Will have to try again next week after I get more of the good stuff.

I saw the modified IDPA classifier style test that was posted earlier. Anyone else got any drills or tests to suggest for building and assessing bolt rifle skills?

[okie john]

I've never actually had one of the three position slings on one of my own rifles, so I have limited experience to compare it to. I have used several of the more traditional loop sling designs and this one is much quicker to get into (although, like most nylon slings, it doesn't stay in place on the arm quite as well as leather). It's working great for now, but I imagine that as it wears and the nylon loses some of it's "springiness", the loop will not stay open quite as well on its own. Time will tell.

In looking for some "practical rifle" type drills and standards to try out, I wasn't coming up with much. I remembering seeing something from Cooper (maybe in the Art of the Rifle?) about judging a rifleman by his ability to go from ready to a shooting position other than prone and hit a 10-inch target at 200 yards in under 10 seconds on demand. So I tried that for a while. Getting slung up and into a kneeling position with the Wilderness sling wasn't a problem. Hitting the target was another matter. Although, by that time, I had run out of my good range ammo and had to switch over to some milsurp junk that was in my bag, which had a completely different POI. Will have to try again next week after I get more of the good stuff.

I saw the modified IDPA classifier style test that was posted earlier. Anyone else got any drills or tests to suggest for building and assessing bolt rifle skills?

There are a ton of them, plus variations, in Cooper's Commentaries. You can find four of the classics at http://www.frfrogspad.com/courses.htm.


Okie John

[coldcase1984]

Where did you get your 5-round mags, Chris?

I'm on the brink of getting either a T3 Lite Adjustable .308/.260 or a T3x Compact 7/08 (my favorite store has already sold all the Compact .308).

Thinking about using either as basis for a handy little carbine cut a bit & thread for quiet hunting in TN swamps. Then give it to my grandson after he clips his first whitetail with it in 2020 at age 5 years 4 months.:D

[GLB]

My favorite rifle drill is the 4 Position Drill. 10" steel plate at 100 yards-1 shot standing, 1 kneeling, 1 sitting, and 1 prone. This works well with ARs and Scout/Practical Rifles. Do this 3-5 times in a set for as many as you like for a good workout. Sometimes I will add the barricade support shooting to the drill. It will improve getting in and out of position and shooting under physical stress.

[LGChris]

Where did you get your 5-round mags, Chris?

I'm on the brink of getting either a T3 Lite Adjustable .308/.260 or a T3x Compact 7/08 (my favorite store has already sold all the Compact .308).

Thinking about using either as basis for a handy little carbine cut a bit & thread for quiet hunting in TN swamps. Then give it to my grandson after he clips his first whitetail with it in 2020 at age 5 years 4 months.:D

grabagun.com has them for $34.52 each if you're not in any hurry to get them.

[LGChris]

Great suggestions, guys. I will check those out.

[RoyGBiv]

Is $100 for cut & thread typical or was that a favor /frieds&family price?
I have little domestic experience with this kind of machining. That seems pretty cheap.

[coldcase1984]

Is $100 for cut & thread typical or was that a favor /frieds&family price?
I have little domestic experience with this kind of machining. That seems pretty cheap.

A buddy cut & threaded my ol ' 10/22's barrel when I got my stamp for $75, bit didn't include a thread protector. Shop around, look for acquaintances with skills.

[LGChris]

Is $100 for cut & thread typical or was that a favor /frieds&family price?
I have little domestic experience with this kind of machining. That seems pretty cheap.
No one I know. Never even used him before this. Just a gunsmith at a local shop with a decent reputation and quick turnaround (4 business days in this case). I looked at prices online for similar work and the cheaper places were at least $150 plus shipping. Not that I generally recommend gunsmith shopping with price as a primary consideration. This was a pretty basic job, though.

[RoyGBiv]

No one I know. Never even used him before this. Just a gunsmith at a local shop with a decent reputation and quick turnaround (4 business days in this case). I looked at prices online for similar work and the cheaper places were at least $150 plus shipping. Not that I generally recommend gunsmith shopping with price as a primary consideration. This was a pretty basic job, though.
Thanks. Seems like a solid deal.

[SteveB]

How is that sling working out compared to a Langlois three position? I just bought some Barnes Vortx 150 grain to try in mine.

I have multiple examples of both slings on rifles, Ching and Rhodesian, Wilderness nylon and Langlois leather, and think that the gold standard is the Langlois leather Ching sling. I like the Rhodesian sling fine, and it works, but you just aren't going to get as tight a lockup on the rifle as you will with the Ching sling, because the middle limb of the Ching gives you leverage farther back on the rifle. No way any 2-point sling is going to give you the same feel. Consider this young pup slung up and think about how that 3rd sling attachment point pulls the rifle into his skinny-ass body:

10798

[SteveB]

I really like the CTR bottom metal and magazines. While the mags are too expensive, you can get 10-round mags and they fall nicely out of the rifle when reloading in a hurry. Nice feature for a practical rifle. Sadly, that CTR barrel and, therefore, the rifle is too heavy. I wonder, if you had a CTR and a T3X Lite, for example, if you could just swap stocks and bottom metal to get the CTR mag kit with the Lite? Apparently the Tikka barrels are tough to remove. I'm considering a chassis for my CTR, which would require AICS mags, so the original CTR mag kit would be available for another rifle. Any thoughts?

[LGChris]

I really like the CTR bottom metal and magazines. While the mags are too expensive, you can get 10-round mags and they fall nicely out of the rifle when reloading in a hurry. Nice feature for a practical rifle. Sadly, that CTR barrel and, therefore, the rifle is too heavy. I wonder, if you had a CTR and a T3X Lite, for example, if you could just swap stocks and bottom metal to get the CTR mag kit with the Lite? Apparently the Tikka barrels are tough to remove. I'm considering a chassis for my CTR, which would require AICS mags, so the original CTR mag kit would be available for another rifle. Any thoughts?

Would there be any advantage to the CTR mags vs installing an AICS compatible bm on the Lite? The AI mags are much cheaper and there are several options for capacity, manufacturer, and materials.

[GJM]

I have multiple examples of both slings on rifles, Ching and Rhodesian, Wilderness nylon and Langlois leather, and think that the gold standard is the Langlois leather Ching sling. I like the Rhodesian sling fine, and it works, but you just aren't going to get as tight a lockup on the rifle as you will with the Ching sling, because the middle limb of the Ching gives you leverage farther back on the rifle. No way any 2-point sling is going to give you the same feel. Consider this young pup slung up and think about how that 3rd sling attachment point pulls the rifle into his skinny-ass body:

10798


Very clever, how many years ago was that picture taken-- was that at Gunsite?

[SteveB]

Very clever, how many years ago was that picture taken-- was that at Gunsite?

Gunsite 270 in 2002. And you weren't the only one with good form:

10799

[SteveB]

Would there be any advantage to the CTR mags vs installing an AICS compatible bm on the Lite? The AI mags are much cheaper and there are several options for capacity, manufacturer, and materials.

That's an excellent idea. Since I already have the CTR, I was wondering about it. It does look like there are multiple sources for AI-compatible bottom metal kits for Tikka, and, as you say, a range of more affordable mags.

[langloisandy]

I have multiple examples of both slings on rifles, Ching and Rhodesian, Wilderness nylon and Langlois leather, and think that the gold standard is the Langlois leather Ching sling. I like the Rhodesian sling fine, and it works, but you just aren't going to get as tight a lockup on the rifle as you will with the Ching sling, because the middle limb of the Ching gives you leverage farther back on the rifle. No way any 2-point sling is going to give you the same feel. Consider this young pup slung up and think about how that 3rd sling attachment point pulls the rifle into his skinny-ass body:

10798

Thanks for the kind words about my slings! ;)

[GJM]

Welcome, Andy!

[JAD]

Good to have you here, Andy.

[SteveB]

Thanks for the kind words about my slings! ;)

You're welcome; glad to have you here!

[okie john]

So for all the Tikka lovers here, what tweaks do the T3 and T3x rifles need to be ready for a hunt?

Thanks,


Okie John

[GJM]

So for all the Tikka lovers here, what tweaks do the T3 and T3x rifles need to be ready for a hunt?

Thanks,


Okie John

Mount a scope.

[okie john]

Mount a scope.

Thanks.

I ask because 36 days before Opening Day of elk season, a Model 70 FWT in 30/06 that I bought last year has suddenly decided to start throwing flyers in the 3-5 MOA range. I'm not sure that I have time to unscrew things, and the cost of fixing the potential cause(s) would be about the same as a stainless T3x.


Okie John

[SLG]

Just thought I'd say hi. Nothing really to add, as plenty of experienced riflemen seem to hang out on P-F.

As a huge fan of Col. Coopers work, and former scout rifle addict, Cooper never said that a scout scope was essential to the definition. His original scout rifle served very well for a time with just irons, and he clarified it some years later by saying that if one was to mount a scope, it should be an intermediate eye relief scope, for a variety of reasons, many of which are not applicable today.

I will also second or third what LR and GJM have said. If I was starting over today, I would start and stop with a Tikka/Sako. I have too many overpriced AI's, M70's and M700 custom rifles to abandon them, and while I do think they are "better", they are likely not worth the hassle and price compared to the Finn offering. At the least, it is a great way to learn to run a practical bolt gun, and learn what you like with a solid weapon.

SteveB, please stop posting pics, or I will have to visit you late one night...as it is, my wife thinks I'm cheating on her.

GJM, I'm still unclear on why a 30-06 instead of a 308. When I proposed the 30-06, it was because of the improved long range capability, while still being kind of short and kind of light. As a walking around defense gun, I don't fully get the 06 choice.

It warms my heart to see such intense rifle interest on P-F.

[GJM]

Just thought I'd say hi. Nothing really to add, as plenty of experienced riflemen seem to hang out on P-F.

As a huge fan of Col. Coopers work, and former scout rifle addict, Cooper never said that a scout scope was essential to the definition. His original scout rifle served very well for a time with just irons, and he clarified it some years later by saying that if one was to mount a scope, it should be an intermediate eye relief scope, for a variety of reasons, many of which are not applicable today.

I will also second or third what LR and GJM have said. If I was starting over today, I would start and stop with a Tikka/Sako. I have too many overpriced AI's, M70's and M700 custom rifles to abandon them, and while I do think they are "better", they are likely not worth the hassle and price compared to the Finn offering. At the least, it is a great way to learn to run a practical bolt gun, and learn what you like with a solid weapon.

SteveB, please stop posting pics, or I will have to visit you late one night...as it is, my wife thinks I'm cheating on her.

GJM, I'm still unclear on why a 30-06 instead of a 308. When I proposed the 30-06, it was because of the improved long range capability, while still being kind of short and kind of light. As a walking around defense gun, I don't fully get the 06 choice.

It warms my heart to see such intense rifle interest on P-F.

SLG, stick around, this thread was designed to lure you back into regularly posting.

As to .30-06, I head you mention "short barrel .06," was there more? Kidding aside, I had a pre-64 model 70 .06 around, and figured I should build it into something practical, and it seems a crime to make it into a .308, given it is an .06 length action. I do like that there are some quality 180-200 grain factory loads with premium, tough bullets available in .06 like the Federal 200 grain Trophy Bonded load.

[Dagga Boy]

Being that 06 will be inbound to me as soon as GJM and I can finalize the deal, I am good with it. Here is why. I have .308's in both bolt and semi that will do most anything I want the caliber for. For "walking around" (which for a guy who camps in condo's in the mountains) means usually "driving around", I love my lever guns in this role. Whether 30/30 for around town, or the 45/70 for serious stuff. The appeal of the 30-06 was that if I am looking at a bolt gun, I want the power, and range. The step up to that power level Ina semi isn't really there. In .308, we have semi's that finally work in.308, and stuff like 6.8 that gives me 80%. For a do it all bolt, 50 state and likely internationally legal gun with power for most anything that walks, and is a caliber easy to find almost anywhere and often reasonably priced. The gun that was originally going to fill this role for me was a similar gun to the Brockman 30-06, but it was a Pre 64 in .375 H&H that was sent to Robar.......and is now owned by the new owner of Robar (who is a close friend...they don't usually keep customer guns). Because I really don't hunt, the 06 is likely a better fit. At least that is how I am justifying giving up a Gray Guns HK 45C.......:eek:

[PNWTO]

GJM/All,

.338 Federal as an option for when AOs and animals demand? Commercial availability of ammo not an issue. It seems like a great round for its intent.

Case in point, Sako Black Bear in .338 Fed. 20" barrel, irons, lightweight, fluted barrel.

10829


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-roLSqRtpnM

[SLG]

I'm now tracking on the 06, both from GJM, and to DB. Nothing wrong with it in the least, as everyone knows 3006 is one of the greats.

One of these days I'll put a special 06 together. I bought 2 Featherweight M70's a few years ago to use as a base. It will be a short, handy hunting gun, with the ability to really reach out there. Not because that is needed, but just because I like the exercise. Maybe as a treat for moving back out west, when the time comes. I suppose a pic is in order to round this post out before I go to bed. Sorry for the cell phone pics. Top gun is a full house Brockman in 9.3X62 that I got from a member here. Awesome gun, and is my version of GJM's current project. Second gun is also a Brockman, and is my version of a lightweight 308 for hunting and medium range shooting(500-800 yards.) The final pic is also a Brockman, and is a medium weight 308 for some hunting and lots of extreme mid range precision. It lacks a scope right now because it isn't getting much use these days, and I needed the NF for another gun. In case it's not obvious, all three are M70's, and 2 of the three have Brockman's pop up sights. That last gun is every bit as accurate as any of my M700's or AI's. An M70 can be made to be quite accurate.:-)108301083110832

[PNWTO]

SLG, I would love to see more of #3 if you have the time.

[GJM]

GJM/All,

.338 Federal as an option for when AOs and animals demand? Commercial availability of ammo not an issue. It seems like a great round for its intent.

Case in point, Sako Black Bear in .338 Fed. 20" barrel, irons, lightweight, fluted barrel.

10829


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-roLSqRtpnM

I have a 9.3x62 Black Bear that I got from SteveB, and I am looking at one in .308.


I'm now tracking on the 06, both from GJM, and to DB. Nothing wrong with it in the least, as everyone knows 3006 is one of the greats.

One of these days I'll put a special 06 together. I bought 2 Featherweight M70's a few years ago to use as a base. It will be a short, handy hunting gun, with the ability to really reach out there. Not because that is needed, but just because I like the exercise. Maybe as a treat for moving back out west, when the time comes. I suppose a pic is in order to round this post out before I go to bed. Sorry for the cell phone pics. Top gun is a full house Brockman in 9.3X62 that I got from a member here. Awesome gun, and is my version of GJM's current project. Second gun is also a Brockman, and is my version of a lightweight 308 for hunting and medium range shooting(500-800 yards.) The final pic is also a Brockman, and is a medium weight 308 for some hunting and lots of extreme mid range precision. It lacks a scope right now because it isn't getting much use these days, and I needed the NF for another gun. In case it's not obvious, all three are M70's, and 2 of the three have Brockman's pop up sights. That last gun is every bit as accurate as any of my M700's or AI's. An M70 can be made to be quite accurate.:-)108301083110832

Good looking rifles! Also like the S&W bar stools -- do you know someone there?

[SLG]

SLG, I would love to see more of #3 if you have the time.

They're locked up for the night, but it is a 308 M70, with a Kreiger barrel (#3, I think), threaded and capped with a TBA muzzle break for a can. M40 stock, trigger work, talley bases, etc. Jim sent me a test target with 3 rds shot at 100 yards into like .3. I have not been able to recreate that, but it pretty easily holds .5 for me.

[PNWTO]

They're locked up for the night, but it is a 308 M70, with a Kreiger barrel (#3, I think), threaded and capped with a TBA muzzle break for a can. M40 stock, trigger work, talley bases, etc. Jim sent me a test target with 3 rds shot at 100 yards into like .3. I have not been able to recreate that, but it pretty easily holds .5 for me.

Damn. Is the barrel fluted or is just the light?

[SLG]

Non fluted. I'm not usually a fan of fluting.

[SteveB]

I will also second or third what LR and GJM have said. If I was starting over today, I would start and stop with a Tikka/Sako. I have too many overpriced AI's, M70's and M700 custom rifles to abandon them, and while I do think they are "better", they are likely not worth the hassle and price compared to the Finn offering. At the least, it is a great way to learn to run a practical bolt gun, and learn what you like with a solid weapon.

SteveB, please stop posting pics, or I will have to visit you late one night...as it is, my wife thinks I'm cheating on her.



Lots of truth here; getting a bolt rifle just the way you wanted it in the 90's involved way more time and money than is necessary today.

And if gun porn is what's required to keep you active here, better clear out your inbox.

[Matt C.]

[QUOTE=PNWTO;506210]GJM/All,

.338 Federal as an option for when AOs and animals demand? Commercial availability of ammo not an issue. It seems like a great round for its intent.

Case in point, Sako Black Bear in .338 Fed. 20" barrel, irons, lightweight, fluted barrel.


Great rifle.
I had a 9.3 come my way and I jumped on it.

[nycnoob]

Anyone else got any drills or tests to suggest for building and assessing bolt rifle skills?

In addition to The Art of the Rifle, I like

Gun Digest Shooters Guide to rifle Marksmanship
Peter Lessler

https://www.amazon.com/Digest-Shooters-Guide-Rifle-Marksmanship/dp/1440235120/



I was at a highpower match with my Tikka in 308 this weekend. My rapid fire abilities could not really keep up with the time limits. I enjoyed the match and want to work on using my bolt gun for this (though the serious competitors tried to convince me to switch to an AR). Chris you may wish to put a QD mount on your optic, I had to adjust the eye relief on my scope as I went from standing to sitting prone (about 5 rail section).

[JDB]

Question concerning the Tikkas:

Would a T3x lite stainless in .260 have enough rigidity to host a suppressor? If I could take that rifle, cut off an inch and thread it, that might be the ticket for me.

I'm sure the Tikka CTR is probably a better suppressor host, but for the weight penalty.


Back to the scout rifle thing. I just rediscovered my father's old Husquavarna .30-06, languishing in the back of the safe for 20 years. What a joy to handle, quite lively and feel nearly as light, but much better balanced than the Rem M7 .308 I've been using. That might have to become my mountain and Tundra gun.

[SteveB]

Question concerning the Tikkas:

Would a T3x lite stainless in .260 have enough rigidity to host a suppressor? If I could take that rifle, cut off an inch and thread it, that might be the ticket for me.

I'm sure the Tikka CTR is probably a better suppressor host, but for the weight penalty.


Cutting off an inch will not give you enough barrel diameter for threading. If you cut the barrel back to 16.5", you might be able to thread it 1/2X28 and use an adapter. No doubt the CTR is a better barrel for a can.

Edited to add:

Internet search shows the lite barrel to be .665" in diameter at the muzzle after it has been cut to 16.5". I'd want to be real sure your plan would work before sacrificing a barrel.

[coldcase1984]

JDB, I got a friend who cut his 7/08 to 17-in. Pressfit a piece with shoulder on it and threaded it 5/8x24. Pretty handy w Gemtech Sandstorm on it. He's killed a lot of stuff with it.

[okie john]

Back to the scout rifle thing. I just rediscovered my father's old Husquavarna .30-06, languishing in the back of the safe for 20 years. What a joy to handle, quite lively and feel nearly as light, but much better balanced than the Rem M7 .308 I've been using. That might have to become my mountain and Tundra gun.

Husqvarna made a bunch of 30/06 models, from a pure commercial 98 (Model 160?) with a 24" barrel to the Model 1600, which is a very light small ring commercial 98 with a teeny little bolt stop on the left side of the action.

I've owned several of both, and they're truly underrated. The big 98's have a 1:10 twist, but I think the 1600's in 30/06 have a 1:12 twist, which may not stabilize 220-grain bullets. All of the ones I owned shot about 1 MOA with most loads I tried, and one 270 was substantially better. Three things to bear in mind:

The triggers definitely need a little help, but Timney can fix that for you.
They tend to kick out of their stocks, so glass bedding is pretty much mandatory.
The ejector is held in by a little screw that can come loose. If ejection starts to get lazy, pulling the action out of the stock and tightening the screw will fix it.



Okie John

[Poconnor]

I fondled a tikka sporter in an MDT chassis today at my LGS. I was impressed by how it handled. Not like a fine shotgun but enough like an AR that my first thought was "I'm getting one if these "

[littlejerry]

I played with a CZ 527 this week. It was glorious... It does absolutely nothing my current stable of rifles can't do, but I want it. It's just such a well executed rifle.

[GJM]

I was at Jim Brockman's this afternoon, and hope to post pictures later of a number of interesting things.

[RoyGBiv]

I played with a CZ 527 this week. It was glorious... It does absolutely nothing my current stable of rifles can't do, but I want it. It's just such a well executed rifle.

Oooooo

[GJM]

As mentioned above, I visited Jim Brockman today, and got to spend a few hours with him at his shop. First, here is SteveB's model 70, with the new bottom metal and fresh cerakote.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/FullSizeRender_zpsvbnnfw6h.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/FullSizeRender_zpsvbnnfw6h.jpg.html)

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/FullSizeRender%203_zpsgllxgn1r.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/FullSizeRender%203_zpsgllxgn1r.jpg.html)

Jim was working on my .375 companion Pre-64 model 70 to what I now call Darryl's .30-06. Taking weight off a LH Dakota .300WM, that my wife has shot many game animals with, same treatment to a Pre-64 .270 Weatherby of mine.

Here is a CZ 527 that he turned into a 6.5 Grendel.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/FullSizeRender%202_zpscgo18utg.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/FullSizeRender%202_zpscgo18utg.jpg.html)

Here is a full boat .308.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/IMG_4867_zpsblzt1ec0.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/IMG_4867_zpsblzt1ec0.jpg.html)

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/FullSizeRender%204_zpsggody18g.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/FullSizeRender%204_zpsggody18g.jpg.html)

I am planning on him doing one for me in 6.5 Creedmore. Also sugggested he make his new stock work with Tikka short action rifles.

[Buckshot]

Is that Brockman bottom metal on the 1st M-70, or something else?

[Rack]

Anyone know where I could buy a stock for a Pre-64 Win M70 Featherweight? Synthetic, along the lines of a Bell & Carlson, McMillan, etc. hunting stock shape?

I would also take a wood stock, if available.

Thanks.

[SteveB]

Is that Brockman bottom metal on the 1st M-70, or something else?

That's an FN kit; fits M70 as well as the FN actions that are being produced on the Winchester machines:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/932445/fn-tbm-trigger-guard-and-detachable-box-magazine-fn-spr-pbr-tsr-winchester-model-70-short-action-with-5-round-and-10-round-magazine

[GJM]

Good news on practice ammo front:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/10/07/american-eagle-target-loads-300-blk-6-5-grendel-6-5-creedmoor/

[Robinson]

Good news on practice ammo front:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/10/07/american-eagle-target-loads-300-blk-6-5-grendel-6-5-creedmoor/

Hmmm... I'm interested in that 300 BLK ammunition. I wonder how its trajectory compares to 110/120gr TTSX ammo. I will probably try to order some and find out. I'm seeing it online for $14-$17 per box.

[Poconnor]

Has anybody mounted an aimpiont T1 on a talley base?

[GJM]

Has anybody mounted an aimpiont T1 on a talley base?

Brockman has such a thing. The black rifle in the aluminum case has a Talley base milled integral to the barrel, so you can drop a T1 right in.

[okie john]

I think we need to move the Brockman stuff to a thread entitled "Okie John's Kid Can Put Himself Through College."


Okie John

[Poconnor]

I'm already telling my boys GI bill!

[Xrslug]

That's an FN kit; fits M70 as well as the FN actions that are being produced on the Winchester machines:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/932445/fn-tbm-trigger-guard-and-detachable-box-magazine-fn-spr-pbr-tsr-winchester-model-70-short-action-with-5-round-and-10-round-magazine

As a PSA, if anyone is interested in adding this bottom metal to their compatible Winchester or FN, this seems to be a screaming deal:

http://www.midwestgunworks.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=&Product_Code=62224&Category_Code=fn-bolt-rifles

[JDB]

Husqvarna made a bunch of 30/06 models, from a pure commercial 98 (Model 160?) with a 24" barrel to the Model 1600, which is a very light small ring commercial 98 with a teeny little bolt stop on the left side of the action.

I've owned several of both, and they're truly underrated. The big 98's have a 1:10 twist, but I think the 1600's in 30/06 have a 1:12 twist, which may not stabilize 220-grain bullets. All of the ones I owned shot about 1 MOA with most loads I tried, and one 270 was substantially better. Three things to bear in mind:

The triggers definitely need a little help, but Timney can fix that for you.
They tend to kick out of their stocks, so glass bedding is pretty much mandatory.
The ejector is held in by a little screw that can come loose. If ejection starts to get lazy, pulling the action out of the stock and tightening the screw will fix it.



Okie John

Hey thanks a ton for the info on Husquavarna. My pops old gun had a full length stock on it (extended to barrel), missing the front section (presumably removed for weight). The stock has a crack up front, about 10" from the action, and doesn't seem fully secured. I'll have to check it out to see if its cracked at the bedding.

Last time I remember it was fired, I shot a Caribou with it 20 years ago. Don't think its seen a round since. Time to get it back in action.

hmm, might have to put off that Tikka for a bit...

[DamonL]

The Brockman stock looks interesting. The folding stock would make it more compact for transportation. Is there any other reason for that?

[GJM]

The Brockman stock looks interesting. The folding stock would make it more compact for transportation. Is there any other reason for that?

Compact, lightweight, and adjustable comb height.

[OlongJohnson]

EuroOptic has closeout pricing on the last of their T3s.

[DamonL]

Compact, lightweight, and adjustable comb height.

Is it still lightweight? That integral bipod is slick as all get out.

[SteveB]

Has anybody mounted an aimpiont T1 on a talley base?

Brockman made me a QD Talley Aimpoint Micro mount; not sure if it was a one-off:

11057

11058

11059

[Poconnor]

Thanks, I will email brockman this week

[GJM]

Many pages ago, we discussed the limitation of the IER scout scope in the hunting fields. I just got to Colorado, where I have 300 and 400 yard targets (12 inch round steel) set in an area of pinion and junipers. In the morning, with the sun behind me, I can easily make out the targets. If you look carefully, you can see the 400 yard target on the left side of the picture, and the 300 yard target on the right side.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/IMG_4879_zpswyhcaznl.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/IMG_4879_zpswyhcaznl.jpg.html)

[GJM]

Many pages ago, we discussed the limitation of the IER scout scope in the hunting fields. I just got to Colorado, where I have 300 and 400 yard targets (12 inch round steel) set in an area of pinion and junipers. In the morning, with the sun behind me, I can easily make out the targets. If you look carefully, you can see the 400 yard target on the left side of the picture, and the 300 yard target on the right side.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/IMG_4879_zpswyhcaznl.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/IMG_4879_zpswyhcaznl.jpg.html)

Here are the same targets in 3pm sunlight.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_4896_zps6xkjskh3.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_4896_zps6xkjskh3.jpg.html)

[SLG]

My first hunt in MT was with a steyr scout, Cooper edition,,of course. That hunt showed me all the limitations I cared to experience, much like the pics that GJM is using to illustrate the point. Being stubborn, I still used the scout for many shoots, and a few hunts. Never again.

[drummer]

Am I wrong in thinking that the LPV optics have made EIR optics obsolete? The only forward mounted optic I would consider is an Aimpoint.

Also, has anyone tried mounting offset irons on a bolt gun? It has proven to work pretty well on ARs. My preference is to you use offset irons on ARs with optics rather than try and pull an optic off if for some reason it was unusable.

[Dagga Boy]

Brockman made me a QD Talley Aimpoint Micro mount; not sure if it was a one-off:

11057

11058

11059

Oh look.....it's the Unicorn my H2 sitting on my desk has been trying to find..........GJM, while you are there, see if Jim has one of the little Unicorns around.

[SteveB]

Am I wrong in thinking that the LPV optics have made EIR optics obsolete? The only forward mounted optic I would consider is an Aimpoint.


I think that's right.

[GJM]

Am I wrong in thinking that the LPV optics have made EIR optics obsolete? The only forward mounted optic I would consider is an Aimpoint.

Also, has anyone tried mounting offset irons on a bolt gun? It has proven to work pretty well on ARs. My preference is to you use offset irons on ARs with optics rather than try and pull an optic off if for some reason it was unusable.


I think that's right.

Agreed, with the exception of a heavy recoiling rifle, where you would like to keep the action open for reloading and scope out of your face, while still having full time aperture sights mounted, but still have some magnification. My wife loves her .338 with an IER scope, and I would consider having one on a .375 or .416, depending on the circumstances.

[LockedBreech]

When it became clear that Hilary was going to win (sorry guys, but it's pretty obvious at this point) I ordered 500 rounds of quality 7.62 ammo and an AK-47. Shortly after I learned I had chosen a crappy AK, so I canceled my order, leaving me with a 7.62 supply and no gun for it.

Since then, I have been very, very tempted by the CZ 527. It looks brilliant as a scout rifle and I already have an ammo stock for it. I've never owned a CZ product, but the continuing praise of the 527 draws me ever closer.

[GJM]

What kind of ammo? I think the CZ is happier with brass than steel case ammo.

[GLB]

When it became clear that Hilary was going to win (sorry guys, but it's pretty obvious at this point) I ordered 500 rounds of quality 7.62 ammo and an AK-47. Shortly after I learned I had chosen a crappy AK, so I canceled my order, leaving me with a 7.62 supply and no gun for it.

Since then, I have been very, very tempted by the CZ 527. It looks brilliant as a scout rifle and I already have an ammo stock for it. I've never owned a CZ product, but the continuing praise of the 527 draws me ever closer.

I just looked at one of those rifles today. It is a very nice little rifle and if it was a 308 I would have walked away with it. At this point and time I don't want any new calibers.

[OlongJohnson]

When it became clear that Hilary was going to win (sorry guys, but it's pretty obvious at this point) I ordered 500 rounds of quality 7.62 ammo and an AK-47. Shortly after I learned I had chosen a crappy AK, so I canceled my order, leaving me with a 7.62 supply and no gun for it.

Since then, I have been very, very tempted by the CZ 527. It looks brilliant as a scout rifle and I already have an ammo stock for it. I've never owned a CZ product, but the continuing praise of the 527 draws me ever closer.

If you're looking for a 7.62 bolt gun, don't forget about the Howa Mini action. Whittaker has them for good prices. Doesn't have the iron sights and stuff, but will save several hundred dollars and Howa's accuracy reputation is pretty similar. My experience with out of the box Howas vs. CZs is the Japanese production requires less work to get slicked up.

[nycnoob]

I'll be interested to hear your experience.

There is at least some portion of the class that is expressly about topping off, and then later drills where you'll need to top off.

I suppose, if your Tikka has detachable mags, you could accomplish the same thing by dropping the empty mag and inserting a fresh one like you would with a semi-auto but my experience in the class was that topping-up was the preferred method with the M70 I and most of the other students were using.

The class went pretty much as you and SteveB suggested. I could not top off the gun one
round at a time as the M70 students could, but when we did ammo intensive drills
(rolling thunder and cover fire) I could quickly get 5 rounds in the gun while other were
fumbling around. So actually I think the magazine is a better setup for home defense.
I could easily keep an extra magazine on the gun with some marine velcro and if I got
up in the middle of the night and grabbed the rifle, I could even stick an extra magazine
in the waist band of my tidy white-ies but I could do neither of those with a M70.

[Poconnor]

I sent brockman an email for the aimpoint / talley mount. Waiting for a response. Anybody interested in a group buy if it's not a standard item?
Correction- my email got kicked back. Who has the correct email? Maybe I fatfingered it from my phone

[SteveB]

I sent brockman an email for the aimpoint / talley mount. Waiting for a response. Anybody interested in a group buy if it's not a standard item?
Correction- my email got kicked back. Who has the correct email? Maybe I fatfingered it from my phone

brockman@brockmansrifles.com

Have patience.

[GJM]

I will try to check Jim on the Talley mount, as Dagga Boy is bugging me for one, too.

Did some sight in today, in preparation for an upcoming elk hunt starting ten days from now. My .300 WM as always, was perfect. Shot my .260 model 70, and managed to break the extractor piece off the bolt. Jim Brockman says that is a weak point on the new model 70 actions compared to the pre-64 ones. SLG also broke that part on a modern model 70, and stocks a spare in his kit. Finished up with my Tikka Compact and Barnes 150. Shot it acceptably, three shots into 1.5 at 100, but nothing to brag about. Could have been me, as I had a loose prone shooting position with no three position sling.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_4910_zpsenvw0p2t.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_4910_zpsenvw0p2t.jpg.html)

[Grey]

Just wanted to share this vid with folks. Nothing terribly new but a nice video.

https://youtu.be/-x7N8hLI2yM

[Rack]

Did some sight in today, in preparation for an upcoming elk hunt starting ten days from now. My .300 WM as always, was perfect. Shot my .260 model 70, and managed to break the extractor piece off the bolt. Jim Brockman says that is a weak point on the new model 70 actions compared to the pre-64 ones. SLG also broke that part on a modern model 70, and stocks a spare in his kit. Finished up with my Tikka Compact and Barnes 150. Shot it acceptably, three shots into 1.5 at 100, but nothing to brag about. Could have been me, as I had a loose prone shooting position with no three position sling.

I didn't realize that was a weakness of the newer M70s. Is there any indication as to how many rounds before that becomes likely?

[SteveB]

Finished up with my Tikka Compact and Barnes 150. Shot it acceptably, three shots into 1.5 at 100, but nothing to brag about. Could have been me, as I had a loose prone shooting position with no three position sling.

Barnes 168 shot better out of my Blaser short barrel than the 150.

[SLG]

I didn't realize that was a weakness of the newer M70s. Is there any indication as to how many rounds before that becomes likely?

It is not likely,,ime, but it can happen.

[LGChris]

Just wanted to share this vid with folks. Nothing terribly new but a nice video.

https://youtu.be/-x7N8hLI2yM

There is a remote possibility that that video is an indirect result of this thread.

[GJM]

There is a remote possibility that that video is an indirect result of this thread.

Very nice, looks like Jeff Cooper's rifle ten drill. I bet you would find you were quicker into position and breaking the shot if you added a third middle stud, for a proper Langlois Ching sling. Being able to rest against bone is a big help for me when breathing heavily.

[LGChris]

Very nice, looks like Jeff Cooper's rifle ten drill. I bet you would find you were quicker into position and breaking the shot if you added a third middle stud, for a proper Langlois Ching sling. Being able to rest against bone is a big help for me when breathing heavily.

It is, indeed, a "dramatized" version of the Rifle Ten drill.

Is there a DIY method to add a third stud to a polymer stock?

[GJM]

It is, indeed, a "dramatized" version of the Rifle Ten drill.

Is there a DIY method to add a third stud to a polymer stock?

Not that I would try. Often I have had a flush AR style socket installed, so there is no stud there when not being used.

[MDS]

It is, indeed, a "dramatized" version of the Rifle Ten drill.

Is there a DIY method to add a third stud to a polymer stock?

I did it on my LTR, just a simple drill/screw/epoxy job. It stood up to a couple of days at Randy Cain's Practical Rifle class, but for a serious use gun I'd take it to an extremely vetted professional.

ETA: aaannndddd GJM says it better and more thoroughly than I did. I should read the whole thread before responding.

[LGChris]

Not that I would try. Often I have had a flush AR style socket installed, so there is no stud there when not being used.

Something like this? http://www.noveske.com/products/flush-qd-sling-mount

[GJM]

Good news, I got dagger boy his Talley T2 mount. One more available from Jim Brockman, $150. Let me know.

[Cecil Burch]

There is a remote possibility that that video is an indirect result of this thread.

As usual, that was excellent video Chris.

[GJM]

Something like this? http://www.noveske.com/products/flush-qd-sling-mount

That looks about right, but Jim Brockman has always installed them. They are no rotation limittd but that isn't too big a deal on the middle position.

[Poconnor]

GJM, if that brockman mount works on a T1 i'll take it.

[alukban]

I sent brockman an email for the aimpoint / talley mount. Waiting for a response. Anybody interested in a group buy if it's not a standard item?
Correction- my email got kicked back. Who has the correct email? Maybe I fatfingered it from my phone

I'd be interested in being in on it.

This is my first post here so... "Howdy!" :)

I would def consider mounting a "Talley rung" RDS on my DIY, chopped and iron-sighted Kimber Montana.

(5 lbs)
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh178/bankayhoodlum/guns/Kimber%20Montana/BE0B3CC9-B3E8-40B5-BE14-FA28DE87562E_zps7mxq8pai.jpg

(5 lbs 11 oz)
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh178/bankayhoodlum/guns/Kimber%20Montana/432E8E7B-0A98-4F29-A9EC-3CB95D1CDD02_zps1shwnwjg.jpg

[GJM]

GJM, if that brockman mount works on a T1 i'll take it.


I'd be interested in being in on it.

This is my first post here so... "Howdy!" :)

I would def consider mounting a "Talley rung" RDS on my DIY, chopped and iron-sighted Kimber Montana.

(5 lbs)
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh178/bankayhoodlum/guns/Kimber%20Montana/BE0B3CC9-B3E8-40B5-BE14-FA28DE87562E_zps7mxq8pai.jpg

(5 lbs 11 oz)
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh178/bankayhoodlum/guns/Kimber%20Montana/432E8E7B-0A98-4F29-A9EC-3CB95D1CDD02_zps1shwnwjg.jpg

There are three in stock. Darryl got number one. I will wait and get mine later, so you both are in. PM me with your contact info and I will make the connection to Jim.

[nycnoob]

Is there a DIY method to add a third stud to a polymer stock?


I had my kitchen table gunsmith put a third stud on my Tikka. The foreend has sort of a spiderweb of struts and bracing
inside so there are only a few very specific places you can mount the stud. We used a Harris bipod adapter for the stud
but it had to be ground to fit in the space available and a whole drilled in the stock, then it was epoxied.

Harris Bipod Adaptors (http://www.harrisbipods.com/adapters.html)

[JAD]

The last time I did it was on a steyr sbs (back when those were a thing). I used pachmayr flush mounts and it worked very well. I was pretty abusive with that rifle and noticed no issues.

http://www.pachmayr.com/home/flush-mount-swivel.php

[GJM]

The last time I did it was on a steyr sbs (back when those were a thing). I used pachmayr flush mounts and it worked very well. I was pretty abusive with that rifle and noticed no issues.

http://www.pachmayr.com/home/flush-mount-swivel.php

Those have been prone to a number of problems, from a bad batch of them, to twisting out with any side tension. I have been pulling them and replacing them with either a stud or AR style push pin.

[JAD]

Those have been prone to a number of problems, from a bad batch of them, to twisting out with any side tension. I have been pulling them and replacing them with either a stud or AR style push pin.

My sample was of one, and I built the stock up with epoxy and then glued the little guy in from the back, because it was a thin plastic stock. I can sure see issues sticking it straight into wood though.

[GJM]

My sample was of one, and I built the stock up with epoxy and then glued the little guy in from the back, because it was a thin plastic stock. I can sure see issues sticking it straight into wood though.

Been a while, but I think either Millet had some, or Pach changed to a thicker swivel. In any event, standard Brockman solution is a stud fore and aft with an AR style push pin in the middle.

[JAD]

Yeah, this would have been about '98, and I would believe it if someone told me it was you who recommended the Pachs. I think the studs on my AR are pretty cool.

[nycnoob]

There is a remote possibility that that video is an indirect result of this thread.

Wow! look at how neat and clean you keep your gun room.
If you offered a course in that, I would have to take it!

[JM Campbell]

Wow! look at how neat and clean you keep your gun room.
If you offered a course in that, I would have to take it!
Psst the mood lighting is the bomb, he probably has Barry White playing in the background when he's prepping for a new video shoot!

#firearmslovebarrywhitetoo

***Seriously I'd like some info on the selving system and the work benches please. Maybe a post with some details in the reloading room setup thread?***
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?t=19033

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[LGChris]

Psst the mood lighting is the bomb, he probably has Barry White playing in the background when he's prepping for a new video shoot!

#firearmslovebarrywhitetoo

***Seriously I'd like some info on the selving system and the work benches please. Maybe a post with some details in the reloading room setup thread?***
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?t=19033

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

Step 1 - Convert spare storage room in the office into a video studio
Step 2 - Buy a bunch of stuff at Lowe's to make it look like a gun room
Step 3 - Never use it for anything except filming
Step 4 - Impress people online with your immaculate "gun room"

Takeaway: Video production is just a really expensive form of lying

[Poconnor]

GJM, pm sent . Thanks

[SLG]

There is a possibility that that video is a direct result of this thread.

fify.

I enjoyed the video nonetheless, and am looking forward to part 2.