Scout rifle, circa 2016

[SteveB]

A 22" synth stocked with a 2-7x33 Leupold is basically what I'm envisioning. Thinking .308 gives me the most options for "plinking" ammo for general practice. Only question now is should I do that Leupold with or without the firedot?

I have this one:

http://swfa.com/Leupold-2-7x33-VX-R-30mm-Riflescope-P48034.aspx

Hard to beat given the cost, length/weight and glass quality. Leupold made me a custom elevation dial for it; great scope for a short, light rifle.

[Malamute]

The flat bolt Ruger 77 in 308 shot the surplus gunk that was available back in the earlier aughties fairly well. Some went 1 1/2"-ish for statistically insignificant groups. All was adequate to ding the 600 yard plate offhand.

[Xrslug]

If you are right handed, I would get a Tikka 20 inch .308 Compact, whatever low power variable works for your budget, and shoot that for a year or two to build your bolt rifle skills and sort out what you like.

What's your reasoning on the Tikka as opposed to a new production Win M70 featherweight compact?

[rob_s]

What's your reasoning on the Tikka as opposed to a new production Win M70 featherweight compact?

Looks like the Tika can be $250-300 less than the Winchester.

[SteveB]

What are the details on this rifle? Short action Model 70 FWT, but what else?

Thanks,


Okie John

Winchester M70 .308 Classic Compact. Brockman iron sights, extended floorplate for 7 down rounds, Talley scout bases, re-shaped bolt knob, action/trigger work, extra sling swivel stud, stripper clip notch, barrel cut to 18.5", recessed muzzle crown, light mount, sporting clays recoil pad.

[secondstoryguy]

Damn, all the bells and whistles. Sweet. Those 90s vintage Winny compacts were handy little rifles. They would shoot too, the ones I've owned were very accurate.

[spinmove_]

I have this one:

http://swfa.com/Leupold-2-7x33-VX-R-30mm-Riflescope-P48034.aspx

Hard to beat given the cost, length/weight and glass quality. Leupold made me a custom elevation dial for it; great scope for a short, light rifle.

So basically the exact same rifle with a slightly different reticle from what I listed above. Ok, good to know.

[GJM]

What's your reasoning on the Tikka as opposed to a new production Win M70 featherweight compact?

Tikka costs less, shoots accurately, weighs less, has factory DBM, and allows more flexibility with optic choices (more bolt clearance). The new production model 70 is also a great choice, especially for the practical rifle that leans more towards hunting than all around.

[GLB]

So basically the exact same rifle with a slightly different reticle from what I listed above. Ok, good to know.
Thats the scope I have on the rifle I posted previously. A very nice scope and perfect for what we are talking about.

[secondstoryguy]

I like the Leupy 1.75-6s and 2-8s too. They are great scopes for the money and with the ability to customize the knobs and reticle they are 90% of everything you need for a GP rifle. Another major advantage is they are light and can be mounted low.

[okie john]

Winchester M70 .308 Classic Compact. Brockman iron sights, extended floorplate for 7 down rounds, Talley scout bases, re-shaped bolt knob, action/trigger work, extra sling swivel stud, stripper clip notch, barrel cut to 18.5", recessed muzzle crown, light mount, sporting clays recoil pad.

Thanks.


Okie Jpohn

[SMD]

These pictures just came in from Jim Brockman. My pre-64 .30-06 scout is almost ready to be shipped. He is shooting it and zeroing the optics today.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsuj5xoezn.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsuj5xoezn.jpeg.html)


Nice! Congrats on the build. What finish did Brockman use on the stock?

[GJM]

Nice! Congrats on the build. What finish did Brockman use on the stock?

Green paint, but will have to ask beyond that!

[SMD]

Ha! No worries. If you do find out, please pass it along. I have an old standard weight and have thought about a similar treatment for its wood stock.

[Lost River]

The 20" T3 308 with a fresh Cerakote job.

I just used my camera phone. As soon as I find my regular camera, I will post up better pics.

:)


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Rifles/IMG_1599_zpsg9hsdabg.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Rifles/IMG_1599_zpsg9hsdabg.jpg.html)

[DamonL]

I like how you think outside the box on what a hunting rifle is.

[JodyH]

My Scout:
Steyr Scout in .308 with a 2moa Aimpoint H1.
You can reinterpret the scout rifle concept a hundred different ways for 2016, but the original is still pretty damn effective for the intended role.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160820/557509b17b3c7a3befac867ffbd58af3.jpg

[That Guy]

...As long as you are right-handed. :/

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[TheRoland]

The 20" T3 308 with a fresh Cerakote job.

I just used my camera phone. As soon as I find my regular camera, I will post up better pics.

:)


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Rifles/IMG_1599_zpsg9hsdabg.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Rifles/IMG_1599_zpsg9hsdabg.jpg.html)

If there's any way you could figure out the weight here, this is almost exactly what I've been thinking of doing, possibly excepting the bipod. Honestly, being able to use AICS mags seems worth some weight, but I'm just not sure how much.

[JodyH]

...As long as you are right-handed. :/
I like to run the bolt with my "weak hand". I think it's faster and easier to stay behind the sights.
I would actually prefer if the Steyr was a left-handed bolt for me as a righty.
I guess we're both wanting the same thing, but for different reasons.

[Bigghoss]

...As long as you are right-handed. :/

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I like to run the bolt with my "weak hand". I think it's faster and easier to stay behind the sights.
I would actually prefer if the Steyr was a left-handed bolt for me as a righty.
I guess we're both wanting the same thing, but for different reasons.


Here's a lefty running an No1 SMLE like a boss. He's the guy in the lower half of the screen. Shooting starts about 2:55.


379ba52bf679e26b410e8a9a8ef1abe0

[okie john]

Interesting concept.

Any thought on how to use a sling that way?


Okie John

[GJM]

Who has a picatinny rail, like the one made by Tikka Performance Center, on their lightweight Tikka T3?

I got the Optilock bases and rings for my T3X .308 Compact, and I just am not very impressed. Not impressed with how the bases attach to the receiver, not impressed with how the rings align to the bases from underneath, not impressed with the way the rings tighten with my Swaro 1-6.

I am thinking of getting the Picatinny tail from TPC and using lightweight Nightforce rings?

[Bigghoss]

Interesting concept.

Any thought on how to use a sling that way?


Okie John

None, I'm a righty.

[BillSWPA]

Here's a lefty running an No1 SMLE like a boss. He's the guy in the lower half of the screen. Shooting starts about 2:55.


379ba52bf679e26b410e8a9a8ef1abe0

Thanks for posting this. Even as a right handed, right dominant eye shooter, I learned something from it. It also rekindled my interest in modernizing the Lithgow ShtLE I inherited from my Dad. With the exception of sights that were clearly designed for perfect lighting conditions only, these old military bolt actions have a lot going for them.

[JodyH]

Enfield jungle carbine in .303 with good sights would be a great scout gun.

[nycnoob]

Who has a picatinny rail, like the one made by Tikka Performance Center, on their lightweight Tikka T3?


I bought the one from Tikka Performance center but have not installed it yet. I am waiting for the
Bobro QD Rings to be back in stock. The rail is interesting as it has a little nub on the bottom which
fits into a hole in the tikka (I believe)

[Bigghoss]

Enfield jungle carbine in .303 with good sights would be a great scout gun.

Except for the wandering zero because of the lightening cuts in the receiver. Now, a No. 4 converted to look like a No. 5 carbine, or just a shortened and sporterized No. 4, would be good. There used to be kits you could buy to do it but they're not around anymore.

[Drang]

Except for the wandering zero because of the lightening cuts in the receiver. Now, a No. 4 converted to look like a No. 5 carbine, or just a shortened and sporterized No. 4, would be good. There used to be kits you could buy to do it but they're not around anymore.

I started to post just this. Then I decided to Google "jungle carbine scout scope" to see if anyone had tried it. I could not (not in the 5 minutes or so I was willing to devote to the search), but I found plenty of guys who said that their No 5 rifle was accurate enough, and that the "wandering zero" issue was caused by the flinch due to .303 in a short light rifle.

Don't know, but I sure wish the Gibbs Rifle Company was still making No 5s out of Ishipore .308s...

[Cecil Burch]

My Scout:
Steyr Scout in .308 with a 2moa Aimpoint H1.
You can reinterpret the scout rifle concept a hundred different ways for 2016, but the original is still pretty damn effective for the intended role.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160820/557509b17b3c7a3befac867ffbd58af3.jpg


That looks like it might be a good setup for an ACOG. I am not familiar enough with them though. Is the eye relief on one good enough to be accepting of running one that far forward?

[spinmove_]

That looks like it might be a good setup for an ACOG. I am not familiar enough with them though. Is the eye relief on one good enough to be accepting of running one that far forward?

I've never used an ACOG before either, but from everyone that I've heard from that have used them, the eye relief is rather short. As an example, Trijicon lists the eye relief for this particular ACOG at 1.9".

https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/products/product3b.php?pid=TA33-C-400120

[Failure2Stop]

That looks like it might be a good setup for an ACOG. I am not familiar enough with them though. Is the eye relief on one good enough to be accepting of running one that far forward?

ACOGs are pretty much the worst. Well, at least the 4x TA31 series.
The 33s and 11s are decent, as in better eye-relief, but not enough to put in a traditional "scout position" as defined by Cooper.

[ReverendMeat]

That looks like it might be a good setup for an ACOG. I am not familiar enough with them though. Is the eye relief on one good enough to be accepting of running one that far forward?

Eye relief on ACOGs is crap.

ETA: Yeah, what F2S said.

[Bigghoss]

I started to post just this. Then I decided to Google "jungle carbine scout scope" to see if anyone had tried it. I could not (not in the 5 minutes or so I was willing to devote to the search), but I found plenty of guys who said that their No 5 rifle was accurate enough, and that the "wandering zero" issue was caused by the flinch due to .303 in a short light rifle.

Don't know, but I sure wish the Gibbs Rifle Company was still making No 5s out of Ishipore .308s...

It's getting harder to know what to believe anymore, it seemed like a reliable source at the time but I don't recall where I read it so who knows. When I went to google the Gibbs carbine I came across an article and in the comment section on guy said the recoil from a jungle carbine is what you would expect shooting a .303 from a light gun and that the wandering zero was BS. Then next comment said the Jungle carbine was the worst recoiling gun he'd ever shot and his example also had wandering zero, so it seems there's something to the flinch theory. Maybe it's both? Maybe some cuts were made deeper unintentionally and caused flex in the receivers and others are fine? Maybe some people just can't handle .303 recoil and wandering zero is a total fallacy? Maybe we're all still plugged into the matrix waiting for Neo to save us? Heck if I know.

[MK11]

I'm not sure why the Ruger GSR gets pooh-poohed but the jungle carbine is still considered viable. I wanted a jungle carbine for years and finally saw a real one in good shape a few months ago but the GSR gives you multiple mounting options for optics, readily available calibers and good customer support. I've seen comments that the GSR may not be the best execution of a Scout rifle, but it's a nice update on the jungle carbine.

[rob_s]

I'm not sure why the Ruger GSR gets pooh-poohed but the jungle carbine is still considered viable. I wanted a jungle carbine for years and finally saw a real one in good shape a few months ago but the GSR gives you multiple mounting options for optics, readily available calibers and good customer support. I've seen comments that the GSR may not be the best execution of a Scout rifle, but it's a nice update on the jungle carbine.

I can only speak for myself, but there's a few things.

First is the price. Yes, it's not custom-gun expensive, but it's more than I'd personally like to have tied up in a bolt action gun.

Second is the rear sight, which evidently you have to give up in order to mount a conventional scope.

Third is the magazines. I'd really, really prefer the 5-rounder to sit a little flush-er.

None of these are deal-breakers on their own, but combined they make me hold out to see if maybe something comes along that ticks all the boxes for me.

I may yet wind up with one of these (http://www.ruger.com/products/gunsiteScoutRifle/specSheets/6830.html)

http://www.ruger.com/products/gunsiteScoutRifle/images/6830.jpg

[Failure2Stop]

I can only speak for myself, but there's a few things.

First is the price. Yes, it's not custom-gun expensive, but it's more than I'd personally like to have tied up in a bolt action gun.

Second is the rear sight, which evidently you have to give up in order to mount a conventional scope.

Third is the magazines. I'd really, really prefer the 5-rounder to sit a little flush-er.

None of these are deal-breakers on their own, but combined they make me hold out to see if maybe something comes along that ticks all the boxes for me.

I may yet wind up with one of these (http://www.ruger.com/products/gunsiteScoutRifle/specSheets/6830.html)

http://www.ruger.com/products/gunsiteScoutRifle/images/6830.jpg

I was literally just looking this up and searching back through the thread to remember why it wasn't the default answer.
I like a lot about it, just wish it had a more "normal" placement of mounting provisions back toward the eye.

I think one of the NF 2.5-10x24mm NXS optics would be really cool on that.

[Cecil Burch]

Eye relief on ACOGs is crap.

ETA: Yeah, what F2S said.

Well, poop.

Thanks for the fast answers guys!

[greyghost]

F2S its not a perfect answer but throwing the XS Scout Rail on there solves most of the mounting issues. It is an extra $75 on top of the rifle but I don't think I'd be happy with mine without the XS Rail.

[GJM]

Other than it has Scout in the name, why spend more money on a Ruger, when a Tikka T3X with a pic rail from the Tikka Performance Center, allows you to mount a LPV or Aimpoint, while having a more accurate, lighter weight rifle, with a far better bolt throw feel (speed and smoothness) at the cost of only having five round magazines and no BUIS?

[Bigghoss]

Other than it has Scout in the name, why spend more money on a Ruger, when a Tikka T3X with a pic rail from the Tikka Performance Center, allows you to mount a LPV or Aimpoint, while having a more accurate, lighter weight rifle, with a far better bolt throw feel (speed and smoothness) at the cost of only having five round magazines and no BUIS?

For me anyway, you answered your own question.

[GJM]

For me anyway, you answered your own question.

Assuming it is the magazine capacity that you are referring to, I have wondered about "only" five and then decided that about any realistic scenario I can not handle with 5+1 rounds of .308,with a DBM to reload, is probably SR-25 territory.

[Bigghoss]

Assuming it is the magazine capacity that you are referring to, I have wondered about "only" five and then decided that about any realistic scenario I can not handle with 5+1 rounds of .308,with a DBM to reload, is probably SR-25 territory.

It's both of those things. I like the idea of a bolt gun with detachable mags with at least 10 rounds, open sights, 16-18" barrel, and not too heavy. I was really interested in the Mossberg MVP Scout until I learned about how the bolt and feeding system works.

[Sigfan26]

I was literally just looking this up and searching back through the thread to remember why it wasn't the default answer.
I like a lot about it, just wish it had a more "normal" placement of mounting provisions back toward the eye.

I think one of the NF 2.5-10x24mm NXS optics would be really cool on that.

It comes with a set of traditional rings. I like a lot of things about mine and dislike a lot of things about it... It's basically a jack of all trades, master of none.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GJM]

It's both of those things. I like the idea of a bolt gun with detachable mags with at least 10 rounds, open sights, 16-18" barrel, and not too heavy. I was really interested in the Mossberg MVP Scout until I learned about how the bolt and feeding system works.

Not sure of the weight, but the Sako Canadian Ranger rifle would seem to fit your requirements well.

[Dagga Boy]

I started to post just this. Then I decided to Google "jungle carbine scout scope" to see if anyone had tried it. I could not (not in the 5 minutes or so I was willing to devote to the search), but I found plenty of guys who said that their No 5 rifle was accurate enough, and that the "wandering zero" issue was caused by the flinch due to .303 in a short light rifle.

Don't know, but I sure wish the Gibbs Rifle Company was still making No 5s out of Ishipore .308s...

I am pretty sure I have one of the Gibbs guns in the safe somewhere I have never shot if you want one that bad. I had plans for a California rifle and moved soon after I bought it.

[Bigghoss]

Not sure of the weight, but the Sako Canadian Ranger rifle would seem to fit your requirements well.

It would. But are they available yet? Last I heard, they had plans to release a version on the commercial market but it hasn't happened yet.

[JodyH]

Once you start getting into the larger magazines aren't you starting to drift out of scout rifle territory and into military rifle territory?
If I'm bumping up to more than a flush fit magazine, then I'm going to build a ultralight AR10 instead of using a bolt gun and running 10-20 rounds mags.

I've always understood the scout rifle concept to be a sleek, lightweight, medium caliber, mid-range rifle.
Something you can carry all day through thick brush, kill anything you're likely to come across and if need be fight your way back to civilization.

[Bigghoss]

Once you start getting into the larger magazines aren't you starting to drift out of scout rifle territory and into military rifle territory?
If I'm bumping up to more than a flush fit magazine, then I'm going to build a ultralight AR10 instead of using a bolt gun and running 10-20 rounds mags.

I've always understood the scout rifle concept to be a sleek, lightweight, medium caliber, mid-range rifle.
Something you can carry all day through thick brush, kill anything you're likely to come across and if need be fight your way back to civilization.

That's where the Savage scout has some appeal. It comes with a 10-rounder but will take their flush 5's. Part of the appeal of a manually-operated rifle is the PC-ness of it.

[Sigfan26]

Except for the wandering zero because of the lightening cuts in the receiver. Now, a No. 4 converted to look like a No. 5 carbine, or just a shortened and sporterized No. 4, would be good. There used to be kits you could buy to do it but they're not around anymore.


I started to post just this. Then I decided to Google "jungle carbine scout scope" to see if anyone had tried it. I could not (not in the 5 minutes or so I was willing to devote to the search), but I found plenty of guys who said that their No 5 rifle was accurate enough, and that the "wandering zero" issue was caused by the flinch due to .303 in a short light rifle.

Don't know, but I sure wish the Gibbs Rifle Company was still making No 5s out of Ishipore .308s...

Never experienced wandering zero with mine. And the recoil isn't that bad. The Gunsite Scout kicks more.


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[JodyH]

That's where the Savage scout has some appeal. It comes with a 10-rounder but will take their flush 5's. Part of the appeal of a manually-operated rifle is the PC-ness of it.
Yea, my Steyr comes with 5 rounders but has a 10 round option (albeit an expensive option, but then again I own a MR762 so I'm used to solid gold magazines).

The primary reason I bought the Steyr Scout was as a traveling companion.
It's nice knowing that if I'm in North Dakota on a job and get another job in Nebraska or some other state I've never been to and haven't researched the firearm laws in that I can be reasonably sure the bolt action 5 shooter is going to be OK.

[JodyH]

The Gunsite Scout kicks more.
My Steyr Scout kicks the shit out of me from prone.
I'm glad it only took 6 to get a zero, many more and I'd of been flinching for sure.
Offhand it's not bad at all. The Enfield jungle .303 I shot wasn't bad offhand either (never shot it from prone).

[Bigghoss]

Never experienced wandering zero with mine. And the recoil isn't that bad. The Gunsite Scout kicks more.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

+1 to the theory that the folks complaining about wandering zero may just be recoil sensitive.

[Bigghoss]

Yea, my Steyr comes with 5 rounders but has a 10 round option (albeit an expensive option, but then again I own a MR762 so I'm used to solid gold magazines).

The primary reason I bought the Steyr Scout was as a traveling companion.
It's nice knowing that if I'm in North Dakota on a job and get another job in Nebraska or some other state I've never been to and haven't researched the firearm laws in that I can be reasonably sure the bolt action 5 shooter is going to be OK.

I gotta say, that Steyr looks cool as hell with the Aimpoint on it. Having a hard time with that price tag though.

[GJM]

My Steyr Scout kicks the shit out of me from prone.
I'm glad it only took 6 to get a zero, many more and I'd of been flinching for sure.
Offhand it's not bad at all. The Enfield jungle .303 I shot wasn't bad offhand either (never shot it from prone).

I used to shoot up to .416 Rigby from prone when zeroing, but I am smarter now. For zeroing the heavy rifles, I really like kneeling, braced over the seat of an ATV, as it is stable but allows my body to move with the recoil. A Limbsaver pad makes an enormous difference in taming recoil.

[GJM]

Here is something from Jeff Cooper -- the recoil is the same whether you make a good shot or not, so you might as well make a good shot. However, once my eyes start watering from recoil, the Cooper admonition no longer works.

[Paul D]

Is it feasible to get a mount like the ADM Scout-X scope mount; turn it around so you mount it "backwards" so that the rings are over the receiver and it is mounted on the GSR scout rail? This way you can detach it when needed and yet have a convention scope position. It only weighs 7 oz. I have one on my FAL and it can sit low enough.

https://www.americandefensemanufacturing.com/img/product/689d296e171d9f54c7d453ce7bd5153d.jpg

[Sigfan26]

My Steyr Scout kicks the shit out of me from prone.
I'm glad it only took 6 to get a zero, many more and I'd of been flinching for sure.
Offhand it's not bad at all. The Enfield jungle .303 I shot wasn't bad offhand either (never shot it from prone).

Is it the .308?


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[greyghost]

Other than it has Scout in the name, why spend more money on a Ruger, when a Tikka T3X with a pic rail from the Tikka Performance Center, allows you to mount a LPV or Aimpoint, while having a more accurate, lighter weight rifle, with a far better bolt throw feel (speed and smoothness) at the cost of only having five round magazines and no BUIS?

I've always thought of it as more of a General Purpose rifle.

You pointed out the AI Mags and the BUIS, the Ruger does have the threaded barrel as well.

However if I was starting a Scout or GP rifle endeavor today I would be hard pressed to not choose a T3x Lite.

[Malamute]

Here is something from Jeff Cooper -- the recoil is the same whether you make a good shot or not, so you might as well make a good shot. However, once my eyes start watering from recoil, the Cooper admonition no longer works.

I sighted in a guys 375 Whitworth for him once. There was no good rest to be had. I leaned back into a tree while sort of sitting. I managed to scope myself on 3 of the 4 final shots as I was trying for something of a group. I did manage a 1 1/2" group though.

[Malamute]

+1 to the theory that the folks complaining about wandering zero may just be recoil sensitive.

I recall some amount of discussion about them on one of the military rifle forums I believe. It wasn't simply recoil sensitive people, some guys were having real problems with them. There were some tricks they did to the guns that helped, but I think some guns never were completely reliable in their zeros.

[GJM]

I sighted in a guys 375 Whitworth for him once. There was no good rest to be had. I leaned back into a tree while sort of sitting. I managed to scope myself on 3 of the 4 final shots as I was trying for something of a group. I did manage a 1 1/2" group though.

I think you could break something in your body, leaning against something hard, since your body can't move with the recoil!

Twenty years ago, we were getting ready for a trip to Africa, and I bought a Swarovski 1-4 for my wife's Dakota .375 H&H. After we got it mounted, with it pushed as far forward as possible, she went to verify zero. First shot scoped hurt, lightly making an impression in her forehead. I told her we needed to go Leupold 1.5-5, as it had more eye relief. She accused me of wanting to take her high quality 30mm, European scope. I said OK, have at it, and the next shot hit her forehead, left a deep cut, and a scar that is still visible today. At that point, she stopped thinking the 30mm Swaro was such a great idea. I think we ultimately put a scout scope on that rifle, just like she had on her .416. I have only been hit by a scope twice, both were with a .375 and that Swaro, and I remember both instances. Once was shooting downhill in the snow and the other time was shooting a leopard in a tree blind, in the pitch dark, when I crawled the stock. Still remember the blood dripping down my face, but it seemed trivial at the time.

[Malamute]

I was leaning my left shoulder against the tree to try to be as steady as I could when sitting on the ground. It didn't seem like that great of an idea after it was all said and done, but I was glad I focused on the shooting anyways. I don't recall what scope he had on it, it was in the mid 80s when I was first coming up in the northern rockies looking around.

[Bigghoss]

I recall some amount of discussion about them on one of the military rifle forums I believe. It wasn't simply recoil sensitive people, some guys were having real problems with them. There were some tricks they did to the guns that helped, but I think some guns never were completely reliable in their zeros.

So maybe it's some and not others. Maybe a batch of rifles got cuts that were too deep that allowed the receivers to flex or something.

[That Guy]

Bolt Action Classifier, version 0.1


Okay, so I shot this... But without a suitable mag pouch, fishing my extra magazine from my jeans pocket, with a cut on my thumb, in the rain. I am hesitant to post any results, in other words... It was fun though!


Once you start getting into the larger magazines aren't you starting to drift out of scout rifle territory and into military rifle territory?
If I'm bumping up to more than a flush fit magazine, then I'm going to build a ultralight AR10 instead of using a bolt gun and running 10-20 rounds mags.


Are ultralight AR-10's reliable enough these days? I assume it would have to be a custom rifle? (The only ones I've locally seen have been ultraheavy ones designed for maximum accuracy and only carried from the car to the shooting bench... Not a topic I am well versed in, in other words.)

Besides, it's a lot cheaper and simpler to just slap a bigger mag into a gun you already have than to get a new gun. In some places a lot more legal as well...

Depends on your priorities as well, I'd think? Boltie for portability and if the probability of bigger trouble increases, switch to something semi-automatic? But if you miscalculate your odds or are simply unlucky, well, at least you have bigger mags for your boltie...


My Steyr Scout kicks the shit out of me from prone.

And suddenly I'm less annoyed at the porkiness of my Ruger Scout. :)

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[rob_s]

Is it feasible to get a mount like the ADM Scout-X scope mount; turn it around so you mount it "backwards" so that the rings are over the receiver and it is mounted on the GSR scout rail? This way you can detach it when needed and yet have a convention scope position. It only weighs 7 oz. I have one on my FAL and it can sit low enough.

https://www.americandefensemanufacturing.com/img/product/689d296e171d9f54c7d453ce7bd5153d.jpg
Maybe. It's an interesting solution, but a $1k gun, $1k optic, and a couple hundred for the mount is a lot to invest for "maybe".




Other than it has Scout in the name, why spend more money on a Ruger, when a Tikka T3X with a pic rail from the Tikka Performance Center, allows you to mount a LPV or Aimpoint, while having a more accurate, lighter weight rifle, with a far better bolt throw feel (speed and smoothness) at the cost of only having five round magazines and no BUIS?
The negatives for the Tikka, again for me, are the small ejection port, lack of sights, and lack of threading.




It's both of those things. I like the idea of a bolt gun with detachable mags with at least 10 rounds, open sights, 16-18" barrel, and not too heavy. I was really interested in the Mossberg MVP Scout until I learned about how the bolt and feeding system works.
Me too.



Not sure of the weight, but the Sako Canadian Ranger rifle would seem to fit your requirements well.


It would. But are they available yet? Last I heard, they had plans to release a version on the commercial market but it hasn't happened yet.
If I didn't care about the threading, there are lots of Sako options that would appear to be good ones. i'm assuming none are for sale in the US
85 GRIZZLY (http://www.sako.fi/rifles/sako-85/85-grizzly)
85 BLACK BEAR (http://www.sako.fi/rifles/sako-85/85-black-bear)
85 BAVARIAN (http://www.sako.fi/rifles/sako-85/85-bavarian)
75 DELUXE (http://www.sako.fi/rifles/old-models/75-deluxe)



That's where the Savage scout has some appeal. It comes with a 10-rounder but will take their flush 5's. Part of the appeal of a manually-operated rifle is the PC-ness of it.
I didn't know they had a flush-5 for that gun... Interesting.


My Steyr Scout kicks the shit out of me from prone.
I'm glad it only took 6 to get a zero, many more and I'd of been flinching for sure.
Offhand it's not bad at all. The Enfield jungle .303 I shot wasn't bad offhand either (never shot it from prone).
FWIW, and you're likely already aware of this, the gun/stock may not fit you correctly which could be causing this.

[Bigghoss]

I didn't know they had a flush-5 for that gun... Interesting.

The scout has the same magwell as their other rifles so any of the Savages with detachable mags will take the 10's and the scout will take the 5's. Maybe they're only 4's, I'm not sure.

[JodyH]

FWIW, and you're likely already aware of this, the gun/stock may not fit you correctly which could be causing this.
No, it was a really bad chest flat prone position and the butt resting more on my collarbone than in the shoulder pocket.

[RoyGBiv]

No, it was a really bad chest flat prone position and the butt resting more on my collarbone than in the shoulder pocket.

I made that mistake with a 30-30 once. I'm sure I would have broken my collarbone if I did the same with a .308.

[GJM]

In a perfect world, you would be able to shoot a bunch of these, because often how they feel when shooting is much different than how they look on paper.

[Malamute]

So maybe it's some and not others. Maybe a batch of rifles got cuts that were too deep that allowed the receivers to flex or something.

I looked it up and read some last night. The ideas are all over the map. One article in the American Rifleman mag mentioned it was found that some guns had torqueing problems from the receiver lightening milling. It also could be a barrel problem when turned down thinner, or just some poor barrels. Winchester 94s are often called inaccurate, and Ive had several that didn't shoot well (also no working with various loads), though Ive also had several that shot very good groups (small number of shots)so long as the barrel didn't get too hot. So, I don't know if anyone really knows for sure about the jungle carbines. Some guns seemed to have problems, some didn't. Those that had guns that didn't have problems seem to want to make sweeping accusations of the shooting abilities of others from their example of one or whatever, and proclaim there wasn't a problem.

[Xrslug]

If I didn't care about the threading, there are lots of Sako options that would appear to be good ones. i'm assuming none are for sale in the US
85 GRIZZLY (http://www.sako.fi/rifles/sako-85/85-grizzly)
85 BLACK BEAR (http://www.sako.fi/rifles/sako-85/85-black-bear)
85 BAVARIAN (http://www.sako.fi/rifles/sako-85/85-bavarian)
75 DELUXE (http://www.sako.fi/rifles/old-models/75-deluxe)


At least some of those are here -- I had done some poking around on Sakos earlier in the thread and found this:
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/579370458

A shade over six pounds in .308. With adjustable iron sights. Of course it's also a grand more than the Tikka.

[rob_s]

At least some of those are here -- I had done some poking around on Sakos earlier in the thread and found this:
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/579370458

A shade over six pounds in .308. With adjustable iron sights. Of course it's also a grand more than the Tikka.

Yikes!

[Xrslug]

And I think that's the "cheap" Sako. There's a "demo" 85 Grizzly listed that's somewhere north of $2k. I'm pretty sure I'm just going to go for the CZ 527 carbine in .223 with an Aimpoint PRO or maybe a Trijicon Accupower 1-4 and test out the concept. Once I figure out what I like and what works for me I will figure out something in .308.

[Drang]

I looked it up and read some last night. The ideas are all over the map. One article in the American Rifleman mag mentioned it was found that some guns had torqueing problems from the receiver lightening milling. It also could be a barrel problem when turned down thinner, or just some poor barrels.
Inconsistent QC in a new variant conceived, developed, and produced in the middle of a desperate war for survival? INCONCEIVABLE!

I'm trying to remember if George MacDonald Fraser said anything in his memoirs (Quartered Safe Out Here: A Harrowing Tale of World War II (https://www.amazon.com/Quartered-Safe-Out-Here-Harrowing/dp/1629142034/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1471971035&sr=8-1&keywords=quartered+safe+out+here+a+harrowing+tale+ of+world+war+ii#reader_1629142034)) about the No. 5 "Jungle" Carbine. I do remember that the other Tommies in his section in Burma were envious of his having been issued a No. 3 that dated from WWI.

[Xrslug]

Not to get too far afield from the 2016 Scout rifle discussion, but relevant to the Enfield and the general utility of a well-run bolt action rifle, the British Army standard at one time was 15 hits on a 12" round target at 300 yards in 60 seconds (the "mad minute" that many have probably heard of). The record was apparently 38 hits in 60 seconds. With open iron sights. Reloading from stripper clips. That's impressive. See here:
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/05/santiago-does-the-mad-minute-with-authentic-lee-enfield/

[Malamute]

Inconsistent QC in a new variant conceived, developed, and produced in the middle of a desperate war for survival? INCONCEIVABLE!

I'm trying to remember if George MacDonald Fraser said anything in his memoirs (Quartered Safe Out Here: A Harrowing Tale of World War II (https://www.amazon.com/Quartered-Safe-Out-Here-Harrowing/dp/1629142034/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1471971035&sr=8-1&keywords=quartered+safe+out+here+a+harrowing+tale+ of+world+war+ii#reader_1629142034)) about the No. 5 "Jungle" Carbine. I do remember that the other Tommies in his section in Burma were envious of his having been issued a No. 3 that dated from WWI.

The reloading and cast bullet manuals have long said that all the 303 Lee Enfields and later versions had barrel groove dimensions all over the map.

Would have to check manuals (or maybe online discussions of people that have slugged their bores for cast bullet use), but the preferred groove diameter was supposed to be .311 I believe, and think they said theyd found them up to .317". This is from the WWI guns onward.

[Failure2Stop]

Not to get too far afield from the 2016 Scout rifle discussion, but relevant to the Enfield and the general utility of a well-run bolt action rifle, the British Army standard at one time was 15 hits on a 12" round target at 300 yards in 60 seconds (the "mad minute" that many have probably heard of). The record was apparently 38 hits in 60 seconds. With open iron sights. Reloading from stripper clips. That's impressive. See here:
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/05/santiago-does-the-mad-minute-with-authentic-lee-enfield/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1BRY113whw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1BRY113whw

[11B10]

Not too long ago I sent off a Tikka T3 laminated stock to have CDI do their magic so I could run AI mags in my 20" T3 Lite .308.

I also have had a T3 varmint .308 for better than 15 years, now cut to 20"s, shown here:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Rifles/IMG_0529_zpsbjowcrkw.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Rifles/IMG_0529_zpsbjowcrkw.jpg.html)

I figured I would update the heavy barrel gun and try a lighter weight chassis. I chose the MDT version.

I had a friend put a brake on my 20" T3 Lite, as it was so light in the factory composite stock that anything less than perfect fundamentals opened up my groups.

Perfect fundamentals,after weeks of practice occasionally start to show up.

That said, when it is -15 with a bit of wind, your fingers are numb, but you are sweating from trying to get to a ridge line in hopes of a long distance shot at a herd bull (or even cow) that is walking away, shot groups tend to open up a bit (that thing called field conditions).

Anyways, in contemplating concepts, and considering a stock that would be adaptable for kids/women potentially, I figured I would see how the T3 Lite would look, and balance in the chassis meant for the T3 Varmint.

That was a mistake/blessing/curse.

The punchline is that I like it a BUNCH. It balances well, is lighter than I expected, though I don't have a scale, and overall, i think that this concept will work very well.

T3 LITE
MDT chassis
Talley lightweight rings
Nightforce 2.5-10x24
20" barrel + length of brake (maybe 2" brake)
Viking Tactics sling

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Rifles/IMG_1583_zpsjz4fdits.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Rifles/IMG_1583_zpsjz4fdits.jpg.html)

I think I am going to HUNT with this puppy!



This ^^^^^ really winds my watch! Thanks for the picture.

[Xrslug]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1BRY113whw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1BRY113whw

Thanks for this, the truth is out there -- my main takeaway (aside from noting that the British sargeant in question apparently had a hell of a PR team) is that those Scandinavian(?) guys are really fast.

[HCM]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1BRY113whw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1BRY113whw

Does anyone know what the Krag shooter was using for his reloads? was that a stripper clip or some type of dump tray ?

[Drang]

Not to get too far afield from the 2016 Scout rifle discussion, but relevant to the Enfield and the general utility of a well-run bolt action rifle, the British Army standard at one time was 15 hits on a 12" round target at 300 yards in 60 seconds (the "mad minute" that many have probably heard of). The record was apparently 38 hits in 60 seconds. With open iron sights. Reloading from stripper clips. That's impressive. See here:
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/05/santiago-does-the-mad-minute-with-authentic-lee-enfield/



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1BRY113whw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1BRY113whw

I'd be more inclined to take that video as "proof" of... something... if they had shown someone actually shooting an SMLE. Video of four shooters shooting des not in any constitute "proof" of anything.

I always heard that the SMLE was capable of a high rate of fire because of the "unique" configuration of the bolt handle that allowed the shooter to pull the shooter with his l(The First Hundred Thousand by Ian Hay (https://www.amazon.com/First-Hundred-Thousand-Ian-Hay-ebook/dp/B0084B72LM/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1472019048&sr=8-1), $0.00 for Kindle edition, has some amusing tales of training, including range time, in WWI.)

[GJM]

I am waiting for the .30-06 to arrive in the brown truck. Jim Brockman said he bore sighted the Leupold 1.5-5, grabbed the first three rounds of .30-06 he could find, three 180 grain loose Remington rounds, and shot a group at 100 yards. Amazing how a stock pre 64 barrel shoots.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps3eiaqiqn.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps3eiaqiqn.jpeg.html)

[GJM]

Brown truck had already been there and put it in the shed! Really digging it so far.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps8p9egsqf.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps8p9egsqf.jpeg.html)

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsk1j3d30b.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsk1j3d30b.jpeg.html)

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps7n1vovx5.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps7n1vovx5.jpeg.html)

[Inkwell 41]

Brown truck had already been there and put it in the shed! Really digging it so far.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps8p9egsqf.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps8p9egsqf.jpeg.html)


http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsk1j3d30b.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsk1j3d30b.jpeg.html)

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps7n1vovx5.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps7n1vovx5.jpeg.html)

Wow, that's fantastic! The optics mounting option is perfect. Thanks for sharing.

[GJM]

Jim Brockman does so many small things that together make for great rifles. I told him that I wanted open sights as BUIS to the Aimpoint and Leupold, and this is what he did. Tritium front and high quality rear sight that looks like what you would want on a handgun.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpshkfolw7n.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpshkfolw7n.jpeg.html)

[Inkwell 41]

Dang, that is nice.

[Lester Polfus]

Nice. If I owned that as my only rifle I would in no way feel impoverished.

[GJM]

Nice. If I owned that as my only rifle I would in no way feel impoverished.

That .06 bolt and a SR-25E2 ACC would be a do it all combo.

[Drang]

Nice. If I owned that as my only rifle I would in no way feel impoverished.

"...seven hundred dollars and a thirty-ought-six..."

[Robinson]

That is a really terrific rifle. What a cool project.

[okie john]

That is a really terrific rifle. What a cool project.

That one really is everything you need and nothing you don't. And the best part is that the build sheet is really simple.


Okie John

[GJM]

That one really is everything you need and nothing you don't. And the best part is that the build sheet is really simple.


Okie John

Only problem is that it calls out for a twin in .375 H&H.

[rob_s]

That .06 bolt and a SR-25E2 ACC would be a do it all combo.

I wonder which would be the more expensive of the two...

[okie john]

Only problem is that it calls out for a twin in .375 H&H.

Good point.


Okie John

[GJM]

I wonder which would be the more expensive of the two...

The work on the pre-64 ended up at $1,650, and I already had the rifle from years ago. I forget what I paid for the rifle, it has been so long, but an .06 is typically the least expensive pre-64 model 70 to purchase. That didn't include optics, but I had them around on other stuff. Feels like a lot of quality for that price.

[David S.]

I propose a gunmaker start a line of these rifles and call it something creative, like The George.

[Failure2Stop]

Brown truck had already been there and put it in the shed! Really digging it so far.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps8p9egsqf.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps8p9egsqf.jpeg.html)


I'd buy that if it took SR-25 mags.

[okie john]

I propose a gunmaker start a line of these rifles and call it something creative, like The George.

That would be like the Swedes naming even more things the "Carl Gustaf."


Okie John

[rob_s]

The work on the pre-64 ended up at $1,650, and I already had the rifle from years ago. I forget what I paid for the rifle, it has been so long, but an .06 is typically the least expensive pre-64 model 70 to purchase. That didn't include optics, but I had them around on other stuff. Feels like a lot of quality for that price.

More reasonable than I'd have expected, actually. I may have to reach out to him re: adding sights and threading to a M70. That's really just about all I want changed.

[GJM]

More reasonable than I'd have expected, actually. I may have to reach out to him re: adding sights and threading to a M70. That's really just about all I want changed.

Jim does that kind of work. He is an incredible resource for practical rifles, as he has been advancing the concepts since the early 90's. Just this morning, he was discussing what could have been better about this rifle. I identified two things, the hole in the pre-64 bolt handle has a tiny edge, that when I run the bolt 50 times in a row, gives me a little hot spot. The rear sight looks beefy as hell, and in the proper sight picture and notch width, but he will add two beefy set screws in a belt and suspender approach to making the rifle even more resistant to rough handling.

This morning, he is looking for the bits and pieces to do a twin to it in .375. I have the .375 action, and he is looking for an original barrel and stock.

I look forward to do some runs on USPSA arrays with the iron sights and Aimpoint, to compare hits and time. I really like a red dot, but the iron sights are so well done, there is some appeal of the cleaner configuration with just irons and no Aimpoint when the LPV is off.

[shootist26]

Jim Brockman does so many small things that together make for great rifles. I told him that I wanted open sights as BUIS to the Aimpoint and Leupold, and this is what he did. Tritium front and high quality rear sight that looks like what you would want on a handgun.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpshkfolw7n.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpshkfolw7n.jpeg.html)

OK this I like. More rifles should have BUIS like these from the factory.

Random related question: When you take something like this out to go hunting or just just hiking in bear country, how much ammo do you carry? Mag loaded with one in the chamber? How do you carry your reloads?

[GJM]

OK this I like. More rifles should have BUIS like these from the factory.

Random related question: When you take something like this out to go hunting or just just hiking in bear country, how much ammo do you carry? Mag loaded with one in the chamber? How do you carry your reloads?

Depends whether hunting or hiking. More hunting. Walking around, full rifle magazine and empty chamber, unless an animal is in sight or conditions (like cover or proximity to a salmon stream) tip the balance of speed/safety in favor of chambering a round. Typically what is in the rifle plus a half dozen cartridges for a bolt. Of course my wife and I also have handguns and extra ammo.

[Lester Polfus]

That price doesn't seem unreasonable to me at all. One thing I've learned is that if you are going to pay for custom gunsmithing, spend the money and endure the wait for a name like Brockman, Bowen, etc. It's far more likely to be done right and you are far more likely to get a big chunk of your money back if you later decide to move it on. If Fast Eddy the Gunsmith down the street did it, you can talk all you want about how good he is, and still get pennies on the dollar. If you've got paper work from Jim Brockman, it speaks for itself.

[coldcase1984]

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps7n1vovx5.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps7n1vovx5.jpeg.html)

Like the looks of that rig with the Aimpoint!

Put a Talley pic rail on the Montana last week and zeroed it with trusty ol' Leupy Mark4 3.5-10X40; it finally shot under an inch.

Was planning to zero my silver H1 for BURDS, but temporarily disremember where it is!

Your's making me think about mounting CompM2 on it for now with Leupold QRW ring.

In similar vein dropped an M4S onto CTR (after taking off Mark4). The mount makes for a Jaw Weld, but bullets go where the dot is and tis fun banging steel!

[DamonL]

If one has a telescopic sight and an RDS for a rifle, are iron sights even needed?

[GJM]

If one has a telescopic sight and an RDS for a rifle, are iron sights even needed?

Two out of three (scope, dot, irons) is probably fine. I like the open sights so much on my .06, I may redeploy the Aimpoint.

[DamonL]

I understand why you like the irons. They are definitely a slick set up. The only thing I could think is that irons will hold zero better, than swapping optics.

[Lost River]

So I finally bought a good quality scale capable of weighing items the size of rifles, etc.

The punchline is this:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Rifles/P1010639_zpsswbhgqjs.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Rifles/P1010639_zpsswbhgqjs.jpg.html)


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Rifles/P1010648_zpsfbbwm3fi.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Rifles/P1010648_zpsfbbwm3fi.jpg.html)


Plus a stock pack
Plus a VTAC wide sling
Minus the bipod

weighed 8 pounds 13.5 ounces.

[GJM]

I understand why you like the irons. They are definitely a slick set up. The only thing I could think is that irons will hold zero better, than swapping optics.

These irons are already on the rifle when you remove the scope, lighter weight than a Aimpoint, and better in heavy rain. Since they are oriented to animal defense, and generally the animal has to touch you to hurt you, the marksmanship challenge is less. Of course the red dot is easier to shoot more difficult shots at distance.

[GJM]

So I finally bought a good quality scale capable of weighing items the size of rifles, etc.

The punchline is this:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Rifles/P1010639_zpsswbhgqjs.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Rifles/P1010639_zpsswbhgqjs.jpg.html)


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Rifles/P1010648_zpsfbbwm3fi.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Rifles/P1010648_zpsfbbwm3fi.jpg.html)


Plus a stock pack
Plus a VTAC wide sling
Minus the bipod

weighed 8 pounds 13.5 ounces.

Without scope?

[Lost River]

Including scope.

[GJM]

Including scope.

Excellent! My Compact Tikka .308 with Swaro 1-6 is 7.4, so you got a lot of utility for a bit more weight.

[Chuck Whitlock]

First is the price. Yes, it's not custom-gun expensive, but it's more than I'd personally like to have tied up in a bolt action gun.

Second is the rear sight, which evidently you have to give up in order to mount a conventional scope.

Third is the magazines. I'd really, really prefer the 5-rounder to sit a little flush-er


I was literally just looking this up and searching back through the thread to remember why it wasn't the default answer.
I like a lot about it, just wish it had a more "normal" placement of mounting provisions back toward the eye.

1. My LGS's regularly have them on the shelf in the mid-high $700s.

2. The XS rail takes care of that, with a very unobtrusive rear ghost ring, and enough rail forward for an offset light mount, if that is something you wanted.

3. Ruger has polymer mags in 3-, 5-, and 10- round flavors that are all more compact than the metal 10-rounder.


Other than it has Scout in the name, why spend more money on a Ruger, when a Tikka T3X with a pic rail from the Tikka Performance Center, allows you to mount a LPV or Aimpoint, while having a more accurate, lighter weight rifle, with a far better bolt throw feel (speed and smoothness) at the cost of only having five round magazines and no BUIS?

Personally, I'd lean toward this:
http://ruger.com/products/HawkeyeLaminateCompact/specSheets/17110.html

Mostly because 1) I'm unsophisticated, and 2) being 5'5", I like 16" barrels instead of 20-22" ones.


Is it feasible to get a mount like the ADM Scout-X scope mount; turn it around so you mount it "backwards" so that the rings are over the receiver and it is mounted on the GSR scout rail? This way you can detach it when needed and yet have a convention scope position. It only weighs 7 oz. I have one on my FAL and it can sit low enough.

https://www.americandefensemanufacturing.com/img/product/689d296e171d9f54c7d453ce7bd5153d.jpg

Thanks for posting that! I had been wondering the same thing until the XS rail came along, and then I'd forgotten all about it.

[Sigfan26]

I'm not sure why the Ruger GSR gets pooh-poohed but the jungle carbine is still considered viable. I wanted a jungle carbine for years and finally saw a real one in good shape a few months ago but the GSR gives you multiple mounting options for optics, readily available calibers and good customer support. I've seen comments that the GSR may not be the best execution of a Scout rifle, but it's a nice update on the jungle carbine.

I have both. The GSR suffers because of the presence of a more powerful cartridge in a lighter gun (mine is the 6.75# walnut stock version). While a comp could be installed, a 16.5" .308 is loud enough already. Also, it's a lot faster being able to load the No5 with stripper clips.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[coldcase1984]

So I finally bought a good quality scale capable of weighing items the size of rifles, etc.

The punchline is this:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Rifles/P1010639_zpsswbhgqjs.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Rifles/P1010639_zpsswbhgqjs.jpg.html)


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Rifles/P1010648_zpsfbbwm3fi.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Rifles/P1010648_zpsfbbwm3fi.jpg.html)


Plus a stock pack
Plus a VTAC wide sling
Minus the bipod

weighed 8 pounds 13.5 ounces.

What scope is that, LR? The SS 1-4?

[rob_s]

2. The XS rail takes care of that, with a very unobtrusive rear ghost ring, and enough rail forward for an offset light mount, if that is something you wanted.

Not exactly. The xs rail covers the top of the bolt, which is a no-go for me.

[Lost River]

What scope is that, LR? The SS 1-4?

It is a Nightforce 2.5-10x24.

Great little compact optic.

[HCM]

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps7n1vovx5.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps7n1vovx5.jpeg.html)

Like the looks of that rig with the Aimpoint!

Put a Talley pic rail on the Montana last week and zeroed it with trusty ol' Leupy Mark4 3.5-10X40; it finally shot under an inch.

Was planning to zero my silver H1 for BURDS, but temporarily disremember where it is!

Your's making me think about mounting CompM2 on it for now with Leupold QRW ring.

In similar vein dropped an M4S onto CTR (after taking off Mark4). The mount makes for a Jaw Weld, but bullets go where the dot is and tis fun banging steel!

Re the jaw weld - you can take the spacer out of he QRP mount.

[GJM]

Just in from a big rifle shoot-em-up. Hunting season is here, and we were checking zeroes at 100 yards, which is the limit of our nearby gravel pit, by our cabin. Shooting position, was mostly slung prone in a berry patch, with plenty of bugs for company.

First I got my zero confirmed with my new model 70 .30-06, two in pages high at 100 with Remington 180 Scirocco, which is a bonded Swift family bullet. In something GLB linked, where guy shot about everything in North America with his .260, he switched from Berger bullets to Scirocco for his grizzly hunt. Confirmed Aimpoint and iron sights at 50 yards.

My wife shot her .338 model 70 with Barnes 225 grain ammo. Two shots into one inch, two inches high at 100, so she was done. This rifle has a Leupold 2.5 scout scope and that low magnification does not hold her back to 300 yards in decent light. It also has aperture reserve sights. This is a moose/bear/caribou/deer rifle, and pretty versatile and capable for that mission. Then she shot her model 70 .300 WM, two shots into an inch at 100 with Barnes 180. Required a slight correction, because it was zeroed for 180 Nosler Partition. This is a 7.5 pound rifle with sling and fixed four power Leupold, and is a delight to hunt with.

Then I was up with my .375H&H. I recently went to a Schmidt and Bender 1-4, that Jim Brockman bore sighted for me, and needed zeroing. I wasn't keen to shoot a .375 prone for paper shooting, so I got kneeling braced over the seat of an ATV. First two shots were I to an inch at 100, about an inch high. I thought "aren't I lucky," as I am not keen to shoot much .375 outside of hunting. I pulled the scope, and shot the detachable aperture sight at 50, and it was right on. Darn happy day. Then I put the scope back on and decided to shoot five rounds quickly from field positions, since all had gone so well. First shot at about 35 was 3-4 inches low, and same for shot two. I went back to 100 yards, shot again and immediately figured out the problem. On my 100 yard target, I had a "bullseye" consisting of two crossed pieces of one inch black tape on an IPSC cardboard target. Well, actually I had two sets of tape crosses, so we could shoot two groups before walking down. I had been aiming at the top cross, and hitting the bottom cross. Once I figured that out, I dialed the correction into the S&B, shot, made one more tiny correction and was done. The gun continued to shoot one inch throughout, with the Federal 270 soft point ammo. I finished up with another five from fast field positions, and they all went to the right place this time. This could have been really bad bear hunting, having a POI six inches low at 100 yards. I ended up shooting 20 rounds of .375, mostly from slung, braced kneeling at 100, something I am not keen to do since tearing a retina in my right eye three summers ago.

While I was messing around with the .375, my wife was picking native cranberries.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsyzkk5t5c.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsyzkk5t5c.jpeg.html)

[GJM]

Schmidt and Bender problem. Brand new scope, bought this year, never shot before today. After a few shots, I noticed black stuff in the lens. I assumed I blew up some dirt, and carried on. Back at the cabin, I cleaned it carefully, and it is clear that the black stuff is inside the tube -- almost as if recoil caused some reticle to flake off. Thoughts?

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsl2s3d3yi.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsl2s3d3yi.jpeg.html)

[ASH556]

^^^My first Trijicon Accupower did that. Trijicon said it was brass shavings from the turrets and replaced the scope at no cost.

Here's my take on the modern scout rifle. It may be a bit of a deviant from Cooper, but I think it's also more capable. However, it assumes some things as well. In my perspective, the long gun is a 25 yd (maybe even 50 yd depending on terrain) and further weapon. If CQB becomes required, I will use my pistol. I work regularly on 25+ yard pistol and have no issues hitting at 100 yds on demand with my Glock 19. So, that said, I worry less about the rifle having closeup capabilities. That said, I've found that a 3-9x40 hunting scope can be pretty quick in the GA woods taking shots on moving whitetail while stalking. Even better then to have 10x on the top end and a rifle capable of MOA or better accuracy. Like with the Recce vs SPR argument in the AR world, the optic is really the game changer moreso than the barrel.

This is a 700 PSS in .308 cut to 16" and threaded with AAC 51-T brake installed. Scope is a Leupold Custom Shop VX3i 3.5-10x40 with TMR (mil hash) reticle and 0.10 mil capped turrets sitting in lightweight Talleys. Unloaded but including stock pack and sling, the rifle weighs 8.5 lb. The AAC SDN-6 adds 1 lb, 6", and a bunch of quiet. Is it a 1000 yd rifle? No, but it's a 600 yd moa rifle all day, and about the same size as a 14.5" AR.

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/01B591FD-FDEC-4B2C-89E0-213B12D59847.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/ASH556/media/01B591FD-FDEC-4B2C-89E0-213B12D59847.jpg.html)
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/9940A500-04C3-4BB4-9048-28CFB5007824.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/ASH556/media/9940A500-04C3-4BB4-9048-28CFB5007824.jpg.html)

[GJM]

Nice looking rig!

[okie john]

Like with the Recce vs SPR argument in the AR world, the optic is really the game changer moreso than the barrel.

Bingo.

Most of the rifles and cartridges we've been talking about can be fast up close and can reach way out there IF they have the right sights. Maybe that's the discussion we should be having.


Okie John

[rob_s]

You probably already said why, so I apologize for asking again, but why is that?

Loading, topping up, etc. in Randy's class you'll shoot strings of 10+ rounds without stopping. The way to do that is to keep the gun fed,mans the place to do that from is the ejection port. Folks that showed up with actions or scope mounts that blocked or obstructed that had a harder time of it. If one is really intending these guns to served as any sort of defensive role, I can't see limiting the ability to keep the gun fed. Even with detachable mags, I want the option to add loose rounds through the top.

I believe XS or someone made a scope base years ago with a pop up rear sight like that in the rear mount only. Maybe for lever guns? Mid imagine matching it to the front sight could be a nightmare.

[SteveB]

Loading, topping up, etc. in Randy's class you'll shoot strings of 10+ rounds without stopping. The way to do that is to keep the gun fed,mans the place to do that from is the ejection port. Folks that showed up with actions or scope mounts that blocked or obstructed that had a harder time of it. If one is really intending these guns to served as any sort of defensive role, I can't see limiting the ability to keep the gun fed. Even with detachable mags, I want the option to add loose rounds through the top.

I believe XS or someone made a scope base years ago with a pop up rear sight like that in the rear mount only. Maybe for lever guns? Mid imagine matching it to the front sight could be a nightmare.

Brockman makes a pop-up rear sight, $150. I have one on a practical rifle and it works as advertised when the scope is removed. It is an improvement over his original design where he machined the rear scope base to accommodate a removable rear sight which had to come off to to mount the scope.

10144

The pop-up takes a bit of futzing to get the scope back on while depressing the spring loaded rear sight, and you have to avoid the sight pressing against the power ring. I've come to believe that a better setup for irons on a bolt gun is the express sight with the rear sight mounted forward of the action on the barrel.

10143

[okie john]

Brockman makes a pop-up rear sight, $150. I have one on a practical rifle and it works as advertised when the scope is removed. It is an improvement over his original design where he machined the rear scope base to accommodate a removable rear sight which had to come off to to mount the scope.

10144

The pop-up takes a bit of futzing to get the scope back on while depressing the spring loaded rear sight, and you have to avoid the sight pressing against the power ring. I've come to believe that a better setup for irons on a bolt gun is the express sight with the rear sight mounted forward of the action on the barrel.

10143

I spent years trying to get peep sights and a scope on the same rifle at the same time. The mechanical problems are considerable if you want a solid peep and a low-mounted scope, but the bigger issue comes in actual use, as the line of sight for the irons is considerably lower than it is for the optics. People generally understand that this is a problem on the M-4, but they all ignore it on bolt guns, even those that may be pressed into service in desperate conditions.

Once I finally got a rifle put together with a peep and a scope, I took it on a blacktail hunt in rugged, steep, slippery terrain. After several days of hard hunting in foul weather, we had seen nothing. I was exhausted and my arms felt like they were pulling out of the sockets. (This is before I started hitting the gym.) On the morning of the last day we decided to take a final walk in an area that's covered in very thick brush where any shot would be close, so I removed the scope and set forth with peep sights. Less than a mile out of camp, one of the biggest blacktail bucks I've ever seen jumped out of the brush and stopped in the trail in front of me less than 20 yards away. This kind of hunting is all about the snap shot, so I threw up the rifle and fired. Unfortunately, I raised the rifle the same way that I would have had I been using the scope, and while I did put the front sight on the buck's ribcage, I neglected to center it in the rear sight before I fired. We spent an hour or so checking for tracks and looking for blood, but it was clear that I shot over that deer's back.

The worst part is that this hunt took place on public land in a remote area that I had spent years scouting and developing. I am picky to the point of ruining friendships over who hunts it, but my brother-in-law had invited a family friend that year without asking me. This guy hunts to get away from his wife, smoke cigars, listen to football games, and drink by the fire at night, which is pretty much all he does after a quick stroll around the area on the first day. He has a bone stock 30-30 that a friend gave him and he goes to the range once a year, just before Opening Day.

He was with me on that walk that morning. As we left camp, I barged in front of him without even pretending to share the point with him. He was right behind me when I fired, and he saw the whole thing.

Had he taken the point, he would have killed that deer deader than a wedge.


Okie John

[rob_s]

I agree with all of the above re: the rear sight. I'd much prefer it attached to the barrel.

[spinmove_]

So, bored at work and decided to screw around on Tikka's site and stumbled upon this...

http://www.tikka.fi/rifles/tikka-t3x/t3x-battue

Of course they don't make it in LH, but figured at least one or two people might be interested.


EDIT: Apparently they make a lite version also: http://www.tikka.fi/rifles/tikka-t3x/t3x-battue-lite

[45dotACP]

Now I want to get a new stock and a long eye relief scope for a K31...that rifle seems ideal for it.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[secondstoryguy]

NECG makes a variety of quality rear peep sights which fit on common bases including some models with integral bases. I have played with these and they work well but require that you keep them in a pocket or such while the scope is mounted. Not ideal, but workable. I like barrel mounted iron sights and that is what I have settled on for my practical rifles. You can do adequate work with them and I actually prefer open barrel mounted sights to peep for fieldwork. The sights on GJMs pre-64 are beautiful and I love how he utilized the factory barrel band/dovetail to mount them. Clean.

Accuracy International makes back up iron sights for their AWP and AWM rifles. They are thread on affairs and I've long though that it would be an easy job to modify these irons(specifically the front sight) to work with most rifles.
Now all I need is a Bridgeport in my garage and the fun begins...

[Bigghoss]

Now I want to get a new stock and a long eye relief scope for a K31...that rifle seems ideal for it.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Somebody's got a picture of one in one of the threads. I think it was long gun for NY or something like that. It's pretty awesome.

There is a company that makes a scope mount for the older straightpulls like the K1911 that doesn't require permanent mods to the gun. IIRC it's offset to allow use of stripper clips.

[SteveB]

So, bored at work and decided to screw around on Tikka's site and stumbled upon this...

http://www.tikka.fi/rifles/tikka-t3x/t3x-battue

Of course they don't make it in LH, but figured at least one or two people might be interested.


EDIT: Apparently they make a lite version also: http://www.tikka.fi/rifles/tikka-t3x/t3x-battue-lite

Battue rifles are popular in Europe, especially for driven boar hunts. I had a CZ 550 with battue sights; they are very fast. I think the Tikka battue rifles are special order items in the US.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Not exactly. The xs rail covers the top of the bolt, which is a no-go for me.


Loading, topping up, etc. in Randy's class you'll shoot strings of 10+ rounds without stopping. The way to do that is to keep the gun fed,mans the place to do that from is the ejection port. Folks that showed up with actions or scope mounts that blocked or obstructed that had a harder time of it. If one is really intending these guns to served as any sort of defensive role, I can't see limiting the ability to keep the gun fed. Even with detachable mags, I want the option to add loose rounds through the top.

I believe XS or someone made a scope base years ago with a pop up rear sight like that in the rear mount only. Maybe for lever guns? Mid imagine matching it to the front sight could be a nightmare.


Brockman makes a pop-up rear sight, $150. I have one on a practical rifle and it works as advertised when the scope is removed. It is an improvement over his original design where he machined the rear scope base to accommodate a removable rear sight which had to come off to to mount the scope.

10144

The pop-up takes a bit of futzing to get the scope back on while depressing the spring loaded rear sight, and you have to avoid the sight pressing against the power ring. I've come to believe that a better setup for irons on a bolt gun is the express sight with the rear sight mounted forward of the action on the barrel.

10143


I spent years trying to get peep sights and a scope on the same rifle at the same time. The mechanical problems are considerable if you want a solid peep and a low-mounted scope, but the bigger issue comes in actual use, as the line of sight for the irons is considerably lower than it is for the optics. People generally understand that this is a problem on the M-4, but they all ignore it on bolt guns, even those that may be pressed into service in desperate conditions.


I agree with all of the above re: the rear sight. I'd much prefer it attached to the barrel.

These posts got me to thinking as I tossed and turned last night.
Could one take a Ruger GSR, mount an LPV scope conventionally using the integral bases (necessitating removal of rear sight), and then mount a rear sight to the front of the forward mounted scout rail? I doubt a peep or ghost ring would work that far forward, but an express or semi buckhorn style? Could you get one low enough to use with the front sight?

[rob_s]

there is definitely an issue of optimal head height for the optic vs. the irons that has to at least be acknowledged if not directly addressed. I suspect that part of the reason it's so hard to find stock rifles with iron sights these days is a combination of (1) the market doesn't want irons anymore, (2) the stock height for the optics everyone wants aren't ideal for irons anyway and (3) not including irons is cheaper from a manufacturing standpoint and probably a warranty standpoint ("mah ahrn saghts caint hold a zero!").

I do think there has to be a possibility of a balance though. People were mounting optics on iron-sighted guns for decades, albeit often trying to add cheek pads to raise their heads up.

[spinmove_]

there is definitely an issue of optimal head height for the optic vs. the irons that has to at least be acknowledged if not directly addressed. I suspect that part of the reason it's so hard to find stock rifles with iron sights these days is a combination of (1) the market doesn't want irons anymore, (2) the stock height for the optics everyone wants aren't ideal for irons anyway and (3) not including irons is cheaper from a manufacturing standpoint and probably a warranty standpoint ("mah ahrn saghts caint hold a zero!").

I do think there has to be a possibility of a balance though. People were mounting optics on iron-sighted guns for decades, albeit often trying to add cheek pads to raise their heads up.

Is the issue of irons on a bolt rifle the product of:

A.) A real and legitimate offset of cheek weld?
B.) People simply not wanting irons on a bolt gun because: when is my optic ever going to actually break?
C.) People simply don't know how to transition from irons to optic and/or vice versa on a bolt rifle?

If the issue of cheek weld is the primary limiting factor of going from optic to irons on a bolt rifle, would the solution be a custom stock that allows you to quickly switch between a height for optics and a height for irons? Is it a mounting solution that allows the shooter to see through the mount to aim with irons? Is the solution a set of irons that can be deployable similar to the flip-up BUIS that we have on ARs these days? It sounds like there may be a few ways to skin that cat.

[Malamute]

These posts got me to thinking as I tossed and turned last night.
Could one take a Ruger GSR, mount an LPV scope conventionally using the integral bases (necessitating removal of rear sight), and then mount a rear sight to the front of the forward mounted scout rail? I doubt a peep or ghost ring would work that far forward, but an express or semi buckhorn style? Could you get one low enough to use with the front sight?

People used to use the quarter ribs of the Ruger No 1 single shots as a forward scope base on bolt guns. Some versions had a folding rear sight incorporated. One version may be adaptable to the Ruger scout, or it may be possible to simply machine a sight dovetail in one of the forward slots of the rail and achieve the same thing. The folder came in various heights. Lyman looks like they were the makers for the ones used on a number of factory rifles, and probably the Rugers as well.

http://ads.midwayusa.com/rear-sight-blades/br?cid=15970

Marbles also makes similar folding rear sights.

[Bigghoss]

Can you even top off a Ruger GSR through the ejection port with the single stack mag? I could swear I remember seeing a video or picture showing how the magazine held the round under the feed lips until it was most of the way in the chamber.

I think the Savage uses a double stack mag but I'm not sure if it's single or double column feed.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Can you even top off a Ruger GSR through the ejection port with the single stack mag? I could swear I remember seeing a video or picture showing how the magazine held the round under the feed lips until it was most of the way in the chamber.

I think the Savage uses a double stack mag but I'm not sure if it's single or double column feed.

You can with the polymer magazines.
http://ruger.com/products/gunsiteScoutRifle/models.html

Go to the videos at the bottom of that page, and click on "Polymer magazine features".

[David S.]

Ruger GSR:

Does anyone make an "express-style" rear sight that mounts to the rail or barrel? Could you install an "express-style" rear sight from one of their African big game models (http://www.ruger.com/products/HawkeyeAfrican/models.html)? Not exactly the same barrel contour, but maybe similar enough. That would free up room for a scope in the standard location.

[JodyH]

Any recommendations on .308 ammo for general purpose scout rifle concept duty?
Southern Rockies (no big brown bears) biggest predators are mountain lions, black bears and dope growers.
Biggest game animals are elk.
Right now I'm loaded with Hornady "Full Boar" 165gr. GMX.

[SteveB]

Any recommendations on .308 ammo for general purpose scout rifle concept duty?
Southern Rockies (no big brown bears) biggest predators are mountain lions, black bears and dope growers.
Biggest game animals are elk.
Right now I'm loaded with Hornady "Full Boar" 165gr. GMX.

My scout load is Hornady 155 grain AMAX TAP; really accurate and hell on whitetails.

[JodyH]

My scout load is Hornady 155 grain AMAX TAP; really accurate and hell on whitetails.
We have a feral hog and javelina population problem, I don't know if the 155 AMAX TAP will hold up to a shoulder shot on a big feral hog?

[secondstoryguy]

NECG makes the best rear sight around and it could be readily adapted/installed on a Gunsite.

[ASH556]

We have a feral hog and javelina population problem, I don't know if the 155 AMAX TAP will hold up to a shoulder shot on a big feral hog?

I shoot Federal 150 gr Fusion (Gold Dot) per Doc's recommendations. Works well on whitetail and stays together through shoulders.

[SteveB]

We have a feral hog and javelina population problem, I don't know if the 155 AMAX TAP will hold up to a shoulder shot on a big feral hog?

Only one way to find out!

Seriously, for a big hog, I'd stick with Barnes, maybe the 150 TTSX.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Could one take a Ruger GSR, mount an LPV scope conventionally using the integral bases (necessitating removal of rear sight), and then mount a rear sight to the front of the forward mounted scout rail? I doubt a peep or ghost ring would work that far forward, but an express or semi buckhorn style? Could you get one low enough to use with the front sight?


Ruger GSR:

Does anyone make an "express-style" rear sight that mounts to the rail or barrel? Could you install an "express-style" rear sight from one of their African big game models (http://www.ruger.com/products/HawkeyeAfrican/models.html)? Not exactly the same barrel contour, but maybe similar enough. That would free up room for a scope in the standard location.


NECG makes the best rear sight around and it could be readily adapted/installed on a Gunsite.

http://www.newenglandcustomgun.com/Gun_Services/item_info.asp?Brand_id=5934&ST=CZ%20527%20Ghost%20Ring%20Peep#.V8ZGPzWwLIU
Something like this, with a blade instead of a ring, mounted as close to the front of the factory pic rail as possible, is what I was envisioning. It would be in essentially the same location as a barrel-mounted express rear.

[David S.]

http://www.newenglandcustomgun.com/Gun_Services/item_info.asp?Brand_id=5934&ST=CZ%20527%20Ghost%20Ring%20Peep#.V8ZGPzWwLIU
Something like this, with a blade instead of a ring, mounted as close to the front of the factory pic rail as possible, is what I was envisioning. It would be in essentially the same location as a barrel-mounted express rear.

Or remove the rail and bolt the blade sight directly onto the barrel.

[That Guy]

That. If/when I'll switch to a standard scope, I'm getting rid of the cheese grater. Might cut a small piece for mounting a light with, but the rest will go. Without a scout scope to cover it, the cheese grater is the most unfriendly feature of that rifle.

Sent from my Infernal Contraption using Tapatalk

[Dagga Boy]

Kind of forgot about this until the topic of Ruger #1 ribs came up. I bought this Ruger 77 years ago out of pure lust as a simply cool rifle. It is 30-06, but done like the Safari rifles. Circassian Walnut, has the Ruger #1 style rib with a fixed and flip up Safari sights, but it is also cut for Ruger rings in both the conventional positions and the forward Scout positions for a lot of options. It is one of those "someday" guns that pushed all the right buttons for me as a do it all "hunting rifle" that was traditional looking in a sense that it is like the rifles used in all my African hunting books, but kind of traditionally American as well. For the few things I actually have a desire to hunt, minus Cape Buffalo, it would work (Nile Croc..note the sling, Warthog, and maybe Boar of various varieties). LHS should recognize this as his dad converted one to .338-06 for Africa and I seem to recall did very well with it. Sorry for the crappy picture.

[GJM]

Nice rifle, Darryl. I had a Ruger .375 with that same rib, and mounted a scout scope on it. It had a Clifton stock, and I shot a number of animals, like kudu, zebra and other plains game with it in Botswana, on my first trip to Africa. It later got bored out to .416 Remington, and a buddy took it to Africa.

I spoke to Jim Brockman earlier, and he said the .375 mate to my .06 is well underway. Ultimately, both may get Brown Precision stocks saving just over a pound.

[Dagga Boy]

Nice rifle, Darryl. I had a Ruger .375 with that same rib, and mounted a scout scope on it. It had a Clifton stock, and I shot a number of animals, like kudu, zebra and other plains game with it in Botswana, on my first trip to Africa. It later got bored out to .416 Remington, and a buddy took it to Africa.

I spoke to Jim Brockman earlier, and he said the .375 mate to my .06 is well underway. Ultimately, both may get Brown Precision stocks saving just over a pound.

That was sort of the appeal of this gun. It is like a baby .375. I looked at it like an all American safari gun...traditional US caliber and all Ruger, but a real African feel. What I forgot about until this thread was the irons and optics option that is probably optimal. This thing in a lightweight stock would be a super neat gun. If the barrel was shorter, it would really be a contender to the point of this thread.

[Chuck Whitlock]

That. If/when I'll switch to a standard scope, I'm getting rid of the cheese grater. Might cut a small piece for mounting a light with, but the rest will go. Without a scout scope to cover it, the cheese grater is the most unfriendly feature of that rifle.

https://www.magpul.com/products/ladder-rail-panel

Whenever I do something like that, I seem to end up regretting it some time later.

[Malamute]

Or remove the rail and bolt the blade sight directly onto the barrel.

Is this what you mean?

http://www.realguns.com/images/rgrintlmetsights.jpg

There are solid, non folding sights that fit them also. Its the factory rear sight from a Ruger 77. They are pretty decent backup sights.

[David S.]

Malamute:

I keep coming back to the following definition of a Practical/Scout/whatever Rifle, because I find it particularly compelling.


I keep coming back to the idea that it shouldn't be this hard to get a .308 bolt-action with the following:
1) controlled-round feed
check.
2) 18" threaded barrel
16" threaded barrel.
3) <7 lbs
Synthetic is 6.2 lbs. Laminate is 7.2.
4) iron sights
Unresolved
5) open loading port (i.e. able to top up single rounds from the top)
Polymer mags can be top-loaded, per post #644 in this thread.
6) < $1k (<$750 even better) MSRP
$950ish MSRP. Looks like they can be had for $800-$830.


Based on the above definition, the GSR really close to a turnkey solution. (Unless you consider 16" barrel is too short)

My question is then: does Ruger, or the aftermarket, make a barrel-mounted rear sight (folding or fixed) that is compatible the factory front sight?

ETA: This sets aside GJM's reasonable critique about the M77/GSR's lack of refinement.

[Malamute]

Malamute:

I keep coming back to the following definition of a Practical/Scout/whatever Rifle, because I find it particularly compelling.



Based on the above definition, the GSR really close to a turnkey solution. (Unless you consider 16" barrel is too short)

My question is then: does Ruger, or the aftermarket, make a barrel-mounted rear sight (folding or fixed) that is compatible the factory front sight?

You would have to compare front sight heights. I can check a factory 77 front sight. Ruger makes the parts and they are available from Brownells, (Ive bought the rear sight parts from them) and on the site linked earlier, New England Custom Guns make similar, though probably nicer grade rear sights. There are fixed rear blades for the Ruger also, but the folders are OK if primarily a backup. I tend to worry the sight will accidentally get folded when carrying it around. Then factory Marlin rears fold also, the ones dovetailed into the barrel with the step elevator. Mine would fold when pulling it from a scabbard or case. You need to make it a habit to check it when pulling it if using a folder.

Edit: Closest I can measure with a caliper, the factory front sight height above the barrel is right on .70". Barrel diameter where I measured it is .550". That's from a flat bolt M-77 308. Youd have to compare that to the GSR version for front sight height to see if the rear would be close. The rear barrel sight on the gun I measured is exactly like in the earlier linked picture. Its not super precise, but its capable of banging the 18" plate @ 300 yards.

[rob_s]

Malamute:

I keep coming back to the following definition of a Practical/Scout/whatever Rifle, because I find it particularly compelling.



Based on the above definition, the GSR really close to a turnkey solution. (Unless you consider 16" barrel is too short)

My question is then: does Ruger, or the aftermarket, make a barrel-mounted rear sight (folding or fixed) that is compatible the factory front sight?

ETA: This sets aside GJM's reasonable critique about the M77/GSR's lack of refinement.

How is the rail attached on the GSR?

It doesn't seem like it should be that difficult to have a rear blade sight made that could be bolted in its place, or a dovetail cut into the barrel to allow mounting of a blade rear sight.

Looks like this is what's under the rail.

10214

[spinmove_]

Malamute:

I keep coming back to the following definition of a Practical/Scout/whatever Rifle, because I find it particularly compelling.



Based on the above definition, the GSR really close to a turnkey solution. (Unless you consider 16" barrel is too short)

My question is then: does Ruger, or the aftermarket, make a barrel-mounted rear sight (folding or fixed) that is compatible the factory front sight?

ETA: This sets aside GJM's reasonable critique about the M77/GSR's lack of refinement.

I keep coming back to this concept as well. I mean, it just checks so many boxes off the list it's hard to ignore. Is the M77/GSR so unrefined that it's literally impeding function or hinders accuracy? I mean, I don't really hope to nail 1/4 MOA with a 16"-18" .308 rifle, but squeezing 1-1.5 MOA can't be that out of the question, right?

[rob_s]

Having not shot the GSR, I can't speak specifically to that, but "refinement" also affects other aspects. I have shot a Brockman rifle beside my stock M70 and things like the smoothness of the bolt throw, the ease with which the rounds could be depressed into the magazine, etc. all were superior on the Brockman and all were beneficial to the "running" of the gun overall.

These things don't really translate to/from the AR, IMO, because you're only running the charging handle once per 28 rounds, and only loading once per 28 rounds vs throwing the bolt with every shot and loading every 5.

[spinmove_]

Having not shot the GSR, I can't speak specifically to that, but "refinement" also affects other aspects. I have shot a Brockman rifle beside my stock M70 and things like the smoothness of the bolt throw, the ease with which the rounds could be depressed into the magazine, etc. all were superior on the Brockman and all were beneficial to the "running" of the gun overall.

These things don't really translate to/from the AR, IMO, because you're only running the charging handle once per 28 rounds, and only loading once per 28 rounds vs throwing the bolt with every shot and loading every 5.

Fair enough and I'm sure, with what GJM has shown in this thread of what Jim Brockman can do, it certainly seems that you get everything and possibly more than you pay for with his work. But, with a production gun from a big name that's been making bolt rifles for a while, I guess I'm just curious if the refinement or lack thereof is really THAT bad. If it is, ok cool, learned something new. Just trying to figure out if its a real or overblown issue.

[David S.]

How is the rail attached on the GSR?

It's my understanding that it's just bolted on.

[rob_s]

Fair enough and I'm sure, with what GJM has shown in this thread of what Jim Brockman can do, it certainly seems that you get everything and possibly more than you pay for with his work. But, with a production gun from a big name that's been making bolt rifles for a while, I guess I'm just curious if the refinement or lack thereof is really THAT bad. If it is, ok cool, learned something new. Just trying to figure out if its a real or overblown issue.

Well, to use one of my old addages from M4C, "go shoot the gun!" ;)

any gun, and the experience of shooting it, is better than no gun and a chat on a forum. I don't own my original M70 anymore because it didn't work out for me and I always intended to apply the lessons learned to a new gun, but I'm glad I got the experience of assembling and then shooting it in Randy's class. Honestly, if the LOP hadn't been such an issue for me in the class (too short, not a lot to do to fix that short of band-aid fixes) I'd probably still have the gun today and wouldn't even be considering alternatives.

[spinmove_]

Well, to use one of my old addages from M4C, "go shoot the gun!" ;)

any gun, and the experience of shooting it, is better than no gun and a chat on a forum. I don't own my original M70 anymore because it didn't work out for me and I always intended to apply the lessons learned to a new gun, but I'm glad I got the experience of assembling and then shooting it in Randy's class. Honestly, if the LOP hadn't been such an issue for me in the class (too short, not a lot to do to fix that short of band-aid fixes) I'd probably still have the gun today and wouldn't even be considering alternatives.

Yeah, well, sadly there aren't many ranges that have a crapload of different bolt rifles that are rented out to try. If that were the case I would have shot 6 different rifles by now. The best I can hope for is to run someone else's to get an idea of what I want. I have a step-dad that has a M70, but Winchester doesn't make the M70 in a left handed action anymore. My mom has a Browning A-bolt II, but my understanding is that Browning is winding down production of those to eventually discontinue that line and they certainly don't have any of those in .308. I literally know no one that has a Tikka or Savage or even a Ruger anything. The best I've got right now, outside my limited supply pool of what I know I can borrow, is educated theory and forums. Apart from, of course, just going out and buying the rifles, trying them, and then selling them off if I don't like them.

It may ultimately come down to that, but learning from the experience of selling a couple of guns myself, I'd rather not have to if I can avoid it.

[rob_s]

Yeah, well, sadly there aren't many ranges that have a crapload of different bolt rifles that are rented out to try. If that were the case I would have shot 6 different rifles by now. The best I can hope for is to run someone else's to get an idea of what I want. I have a step-dad that has a M70, but Winchester doesn't make the M70 in a left handed action anymore. My mom has a Browning A-bolt II, but my understanding is that Browning is winding down production of those to eventually discontinue that line and they certainly don't have any of those in .308. I literally know no one that has a Tikka or Savage or even a Ruger anything. The best I've got right now, outside my limited supply pool of what I know I can borrow, is educated theory and forums. Apart from, of course, just going out and buying the rifles, trying them, and then selling them off if I don't like them.

It may ultimately come down to that, but learning from the experience of selling a couple of guns myself, I'd rather not have to if I can avoid it.

I'll tell you a secret, you can't avoid it!

I didn't mean that to suggest that you need to shoot every gun on the rack. I think you're stuck in analysis paralysis. One thing that may help you is, you're not going to get it right on the first try no matter what. Many of the things I found lacking in my M70 were all about me, but according to all the research I'd done I bought the "best" and set it up "perfectly". The flaws I discovered were specific to me, and were only discovered by shooting it. the criteria I set out for my ideal bolt gun today are based on that experience but the only reason I really don't just pop on a factory less-than-ideal option is that I don't have a real use for the gun right now anyway. If I did, I'd go buy a featerhweight compact and a 1.x-Y and a Ching Sling and get shooting.

[spinmove_]

I'll tell you a secret, you can't avoid it!

I didn't mean that to suggest that you need to shoot every gun on the rack. I think you're stuck in analysis paralysis. One thing that may help you is, you're not going to get it right on the first try no matter what. Many of the things I found lacking in my M70 were all about me, but according to all the research I'd done I bought the "best" and set it up "perfectly". The flaws I discovered were specific to me, and were only discovered by shooting it. the criteria I set out for my ideal bolt gun today are based on that experience but the only reason I really don't just pop on a factory less-than-ideal option is that I don't have a real use for the gun right now anyway. If I did, I'd go buy a featerhweight compact and a 1.x-Y and a Ching Sling and get shooting.

I'm pretty sure you're right on this. As such I've about 90% resided myself to just simply getting a solid bolt rifle and decent glass and sling and giving it the old "college try". I don't know what I don't know since I have 0 actual experience on this, I just need to start somewhere. So I'll most likely just go with my best guess and run with it until I hit a snag that needs fixing.

[SteveB]

I'm pretty sure you're right on this. As such I've about 90% resided myself to just simply getting a solid bolt rifle and decent glass and sling and giving it the old "college try". I don't know what I don't know since I have 0 actual experience on this, I just need to start somewhere. So I'll most likely just go with my best guess and run with it until I hit a snag that needs fixing.

I think this is right and rob_s is on the money; all our discussion about the perfect practical rifle reflects a lot of individual experiences with shooting these rifles. You need to build your own experience in this regard. Maybe get a Tikka T3 .308 LH wood stock, so you can fool around with LOP and put in a 3rd sling swivel stud. Mount a decent scope and spend some time at the range; take a course; shoot a lot. You'll answer a lot of your questions along the way.

[spinmove_]

I think this is right and rob_s is on the money; all our discussion about the perfect practical rifle reflects a lot of individual experiences with shooting these rifles. You need to build your own experience in this regard. Maybe get a Tikka T3 .308 LH wood stock, so you can fool around with LOP and put in a 3rd sling swivel stud. Mount a decent scope and spend some time at the range; take a course; shoot a lot. You'll answer a lot of your questions along the way.

How does wood allow me to do alter LOP or add a 3rd sling stud vs. their synthetic stock? Are these things that you simply cannot do on a synthetic stock (or I suppose I should say, Tikka's T3/T3x synthetic stock)?

[okie john]

How does wood allow me to do alter LOP or add a 3rd sling stud vs. their synthetic stock? Are these things that you simply cannot do on a synthetic stock (or I suppose I should say, Tikka's T3/T3x synthetic stock)?

It depends on the stock. Some synthetics are hollow but are reenforced for mounting swivels and recoil pads. You can't stick in a swivel anywhere you like or saw the end off like you can with a wood stock.


Okie John

[spinmove_]

Really stupid question (I'm not a rifle guy), but what exactly are you looking for with regard to LOP? I mean what factors does if affect and how do you determine what is right for you?

Being new to the rifle game myself, I was thinking a very similar question.

I think I can partly answer it based on my experience with getting my AR setup as well as time spent shooting sporting clays. Fitment of the gun via LOP helps with establishing a natural and repeatable point of aim. It accounts for how big you shoulders, torso, arms, and hands are (or are not depending on the case) and allows you to better become one with the gun. Most long guns have similar LOP as it happens to fit most people. If you happen to be an oddball in some respect, modifying LOP can help with how you naturally shoulder the gun and get on target.

I've found that a standard Mossberg 500 seems to fit me well and I can usually run a round of clays half-way decently (almost always 70% hit rate or better, best I've done so far is 92% hit rate). On an AR, I've found that all the way out (6th position on an adjustable carbine stock) is the most comfortable, most natural for me to shoulder, and allows me to control recoil the best.

[GJM]

Here is why I don't think we see mass produced practical rifles. 100 years ago, we fought wars with bolt guns, and used them as you would expect, fighting at close, medium and far distances. As the bolt was supplanted by the semi-auto, it became mostly a hunting gun. Not surprisingly, most of the bolt rifles designs we have seen were oriented to hunting. Now, we have the development of very long range shooting, but those rifles are not the sort of thing you would take a carbine class with. When I read sniper books, the guys often carry them around in a padded case, relying on their pistol in the event of a short range issue on the way to a shooting position.

We want our bolt rifles to do it all -- hunt, use at carbine distances, and reach way out there with the precision rifles.

[SteveB]

How does wood allow me to do alter LOP or add a 3rd sling stud vs. their synthetic stock? Are these things that you simply cannot do on a synthetic stock (or I suppose I should say, Tikka's T3/T3x synthetic stock)?

Sorry; I meant think about these things down the road. Start with the basic rifle/scope and shoot it. Worry about details when you have a basic knowledge base acquired through actual experience.

[okie john]

LOP is a lot like grip angle. Regularly switching between rifles with dramatically different LOPs can cause problems. Think about how it would be to switch from a 1911 to a Luger as your duty pistol. It definitely influences how the rifle handles to some extent, but unless it’s grossly off, you can get used to it with practice.

More than a century’s worth of infantrymen done just fine with rifles that had a fixed LOP—the shorter guys just had to stretch a little more to mount the rifle. That said, LOP on most pre-M4 military rifles is/was about 13 inches (if memory serves) because too short is much easier to deal with than too long. And remember—most soldiers in those days were about 5’6” and 130 pounds.


Okie John

[spinmove_]

Sorry; I meant think about these things down the road. Start with the basic rifle/scope and shoot it. Worry about details when you have a basic knowledge base acquired through actual experience.

So you would actually recommend going with a wood stock on a first rifle then as it gives you more options for modification if I happen to need it?

[SteveB]

Really stupid question (I'm not a rifle guy), but what exactly are you looking for with regard to LOP? I mean what factors does if affect and how do you determine what is right for you?

LOP is an example of a variable that gets the "one size fits all" treatment from manufacturers. I'm 6'2" with a 35" sleeve; built kind of like GJM, but 40 lbs heavier. So, relatively tall guys with relatively long arms. Nonetheless, we like a shorter LOP than gunmakers provide. So, for a carbine 12.5"; scout rifle/lever gun/combat shotgun 12.75"; bolt rifle with conventional scope 13"; DG rifle (or heavy-recoil caliber) with conventional scope 13.25". These LOP's are too short for many guys shorter than me. They work for me because I want to be able to run the bolt fast and hard, while slung up, from a variety of field positions. To be fair, the Model 70 rifles I've been shooting for years may be a bit more demanding in terms of working the bolt than a Sako or Tikka with shorter bolt lift and very slick action. Nonetheless, most factory bolt guns come with LOP's around 14", which is why some guys like the compact or youth models. I remember rob_s at a Cain course unhappy with the LOP on his Model 70 compact and he's a tall guy too. Point is, what works for one guy doesn't necessarily work for another and "rules of thumb" don't always work. Guys who "crawl" the stock may need a longer LOP to avoid smacking themselves in the nose with the bolt. Stock fit is an individual thing. At the beginning of your rifle career, though, start with a standard stock; it may work great for you.

[SteveB]

So you would actually recommend going with a wood stock on a first rifle then as it gives you more options for modification if I happen to need it?

For the most part, yes. You can always "upgrade" to a synthetic stock later once you figure stuff out.

[spinmove_]

For the most part, yes. You can always "upgrade" to a synthetic stock later once you figure stuff out.

T3x Hunter LH in .308 it is then. That one suggestion just knocked Savage and Ruger out of the running and also greatly narrowed down which Tikka T3x trim I should go with. I very much appreciate it, sir. Thank you.

[RoyGBiv]

Got a message from a friend bragging about picking up a Mossberg MVP Predator (http://www.mossberg.com/category/series/mvp-series/mvp-varmint-predator/) in .223 for $250 at Wall World. I had no reason to doubt, but he was nice enough to send me a copy of the receipt, in case I needed to convince Wally to price match. Trolled around a few Wally's to my North, because none of the in-town stores sell bang sticks any more. Couldn't find a store with one in stock. Lots of Savages and Rugers on clearance, but zero MVP's. Seemed like a solid starter rifle for a hella good price.

Just thought I'd pass along the tip in case anyone was interested. I have no idea where or for how long the clearance price might be found. If you find an extra one at that price, let me know.

[That Guy]

I keep coming back to this concept as well. I mean, it just checks so many boxes off the list it's hard to ignore. Is the M77/GSR so unrefined that it's literally impeding function or hinders accuracy? I mean, I don't really hope to nail 1/4 MOA with a 16"-18" .308 rifle, but squeezing 1-1.5 MOA can't be that out of the question, right?

Serious question: what would you call a 1.5MOA rifle? What's its definition?

I've shot a 1MOA, 5 round group with West German surplus NATO ball (range 100m) - once. I've shot a few sub-moa 5 shot groups with higher quality ammunition (at also 150 and 200 meters). But I've also shot... somewhat larger... groups... :p And lots more of the latter ones. Typical range fodder is whatever 150 grain ammo I could get inexpensively, so normally I'm not in a position to even be capable of achieving stellar accuracy.

The 2.3x (actual magnification) scout scope I have on my rifle makes precision shooting a tad tricky past 100 meters. And I'm not exactly the best rifle shot in the world... My main problem probably being consistency, or lack thereof. And my eyes are getting worse, too. So how much of the inconsistency is the rifle and how much me? I tend to blame me.

When I shot my modified classifier match, in the rain and getting the rifle pretty hot, I felt some resistance to the bolt throw I haven't felt when shooting shorter strings at the rifle range. I know it's easy to get the bolt bind if you try to manipulate it incorrectly (with the bolt back, just try to lift the handle and push forward - no go - do it like you're supposed to, up/back and down/forward and it works fine), but I think it was more likely the gun getting hot and/or the rain in the action. I don't know for sure, though. I should do that again to find out...

I think most complaints about the Ruger Scout are more about the balance and the slight porkiness of the rifle. Perhaps since I don't know any better, I've never much worried about the balance too much. And while the gun is somewhat overweight to be a scout, a) so am I so who am I to complain? :p and b) on the other hand, no problems with recoil even during somewhat extended range trips.

I tend to think the Scout is a pretty nice rifle. It's one of my favourite firearms. But then again, it's also my only bolt action rifle... So what do I know? But hell, like I said, I like it. I find it hard to think it would be an unworkable solution for a regular guy looking for a decent rifle.

[SMD]

LOP is an example of a variable that gets the "one size fits all" treatment from manufacturers. I'm 6'2" with a 35" sleeve; built kind of like GJM, but 40 lbs heavier. So, relatively tall guys with relatively long arms. Nonetheless, we like a shorter LOP than gunmakers provide. So, for a carbine 12.5"; scout rifle/lever gun/combat shotgun 12.75"; bolt rifle with conventional scope 13"; DG rifle (or heavy-recoil caliber) with conventional scope 13.25". These LOP's are too short for many guys shorter than me. They work for me because I want to be able to run the bolt fast and hard, while slung up, from a variety of field positions. To be fair, the Model 70 rifles I've been shooting for years may be a bit more demanding in terms of working the bolt than a Sako or Tikka with shorter bolt lift and very slick action. Nonetheless, most factory bolt guns come with LOP's around 14", which is why some guys like the compact or youth models. I remember rob_s at a Cain course unhappy with the LOP on his Model 70 compact and he's a tall guy too. Point is, what works for one guy doesn't necessarily work for another and "rules of thumb" don't always work. Guys who "crawl" the stock may need a longer LOP to avoid smacking themselves in the nose with the bolt. Stock fit is an individual thing. At the beginning of your rifle career, though, start with a standard stock; it may work great for you.

Lots of truth here. The list of general-purpose cartridges and suitable rifles is well established. The interface between rifle and shooter is the tough part. This is where the intangibles like fit and Jeff Cooper's notion of "friendliness" come into play. Finding what works in those last categories may take some time and money.

[azerious]

I like this, Winchester model 94 Trapper 30-30 16" barrel



https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/16/e5/9d/16e59d1bc9e99552d1ac300f89026e85.jpg

[john c]

Interesting, as they list it at 7.75 lbs vs the KAC 8.4 lbs. That would seem to get under the 8 lbs limit GJM and other more experience bolt-gun shooters seem to favor.

A buddy of mine built an AR-10 with a Christensen Arms 16 inch carbon fiber barrel and a JP low mass bolt carrier. I'm sure these mods took a pound or so off the rifle. It shoots great, too.

[Chuck Whitlock]

T3x Hunter LH in .308 it is then. That one suggestion just knocked Savage and Ruger out of the running and also greatly narrowed down which Tikka T3x trim I should go with. I very much appreciate it, sir. Thank you.

Not trying to pee in your wheaties, but just wanted to point out that the Ruger GSR with wood stock comes with 1/2" spacers, so that you can adjust LOP without having to resort to the band saw, and is available as a stainless lefty with either 16.10" or 18.7o" barrels.

http://ruger.com/products/gunsiteScoutRifle/specSheets/6821.html

http://ruger.com/products/gunsiteScoutRifle/specSheets/6828.html

[David S.]

Not trying to pee in your wheaties, but just wanted to point out that the Ruger GSR with wood stock comes with 1/2" spacers, so that you can adjust LOP without having to resort to the band saw, and is available as a stainless lefty with either 16.10" or 18.7o" barrels.

ooooh. I hadn't noticed that it was available with an 18" barrel.

I also see you can buy the plastic stock (http://shopruger.com/Ruger-Gunsite-Scout-Synthetic-Stock/productinfo/90574/) separately.
.

[Lost River]

While perusing the interwebs instead of doing more productive things, I ran across a rifle from CZ that got my immediate attention.

https://www.czub.cz/en/produkty/kulovnice/medium/cz-557-range-rifle.html

.308
A 20.5" barrel
Detachable mag
Iron sights, weaver rail (no silly scout rail)


The downside is that it weighs around 7.2 pounds bare, according to the specs, but interesting nonetheless.

[Malamute]

While perusing the interwebs instead of doing more productive things, I ran across a rifle from CZ that got my immediate attention.

https://www.czub.cz/en/produkty/kulovnice/medium/cz-557-range-rifle.html

.308
A 20.5" barrel
Detachable mag
Iron sights, weaver rail (no silly scout rail)


The downside is that it weighs around 7.2 pounds bare, according to the specs, but interesting nonetheless.

Nice.

The carbine isn't bad either, though not detach mag and no rail, just the regular receiver adapted to proprietary rings. Same basic gun as the range rifle minus a couple items.

[GJM]

While perusing the interwebs instead of doing more productive things, I ran across a rifle from CZ that got my immediate attention.

https://www.czub.cz/en/produkty/kulovnice/medium/cz-557-range-rifle.html

.308
A 20.5" barrel
Detachable mag
Iron sights, weaver rail (no silly scout rail)


The downside is that it weighs around 7.2 pounds bare, according to the specs, but interesting nonetheless.

Very interesting, looks like a scaled up version of the 527 7.62x39.

[Sigfan26]

Very interesting, looks like a scaled up version of the 527 7.62x39.

Minus the Mauser action, sadly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Xrslug]

Very interesting, looks like a scaled up version of the 527 7.62x39.

For the most part, except that CZ has dropped the controlled round feed with the 557, if that matters to you.

[ETA: yeah, what he said]

[OlongJohnson]

The rifle should be (in alphabetical order) a Howa, Remington, Ruger, Sako, Savage, Tikka, Weatherby Vanguard, Winchester Featherweight, etc. with a 22" barrel.

Check Whittaker Guns for Howa and Tikka deals. One of the great gun shops, and the general manager is a great guy. Some Howa prices there are particularly hard to beat right now. The Lightning stocks are a Hogue without the rubber, so they can be customized pretty easily. On the other hand, I lean toward Tikkas for this thread, as they are about a pound lighter. As mentioned, the T3s are currently being cleared out to make room for T3Xs. Some people prefer the newer model, some prefer the older model.

Weatherby Vanguards typically have 24" barrels where the otherwise identical action and barrel from Howa will be 22". Legacy Sports, the Howa importer, has recently discontinued stainless actions, going to Cerakoted carbon steel instead. So if you want a new stainless Howa, jump on the search.



Who has a picatinny rail, like the one made by Tikka Performance Center, on their lightweight Tikka T3?

Have you checked out the Burris 410630 bases? Not full-length Pic rail, but at least Pic slots in nice steel segments. And each chunk is the perfect size to disappear under an Aimpoint Micro as if it was somehow mounted directly to the receiver.

Warne has also re-engineered the recoil pin on their Tikka mounts. http://warnescopemounts.com/tikka-mounts/ There's a QR version that I suspect might be pretty solid with return to zero if the QR levers were replaced with something less vulnerable.


Any recommendations on .308 ammo for general purpose scout rifle concept duty?
Southern Rockies (no big brown bears) biggest predators are mountain lions, black bears and dope growers.
Biggest game animals are elk.
Right now I'm loaded with Hornady "Full Boar" 165gr. GMX.

Research lighter weights for monometals. They need more velocity to open. I haven't shot any critters with it yet, but my research on Barnes for .308 pointed toward the 130s making more people happier in .308.

[LGChris]

Okay, so I decided to tackle a practical rifle build. As has already been established in this discussion, it's important to lay out your goals for a project like this. What do I expect a practical rifle to do?

I don't do a great deal of hunting, but I do hunt whitetail on occasion, and I'd really like to do it more often. I have more or less exclusive access to hunting property with a clear 300+ yard line of sight (uncommon in this part of the country). From slung prone, I'm confident in my ability to get hits at that distance, so I want a hunting rifle that's practical at that range. The property also has areas with woods and dense brush, and if I were to hunt anywhere else in this region, that's probably what I'd be dealing with, so my rifle needs to be suitable for that as well. Additionally, I just really like short and light rifles. A lightweight .308 bolt gun with a LPV fits the bill so far.

Despite making a living in the firearms industry, I've come to the conclusion that I do not want a particularly large gun collection. I won't go into my reasons for this here, but my preference would be to have a couple of well-rounded rifles rather than a specialist rifle for every occasion. Whatever bolt gun I use for hunting would ideally also be accurate enough for me to dable with precision shooting and other recreational rifle shooting pursuits. The 1 MOA guarantee of the Tikka rifles is very attractive here.

My hearing sucks. I mean, it's not terrible compared to some of the greybeards I talk to at the range, but it's a lot worse than I think it should be at my age. For rifles, I prefer to shoot suppressed when I can. My practical rifle needs to be threaded for a suppressor.

And as much as I scoff at entertaining SHTF fantasy scenarios, it's not difficult to imagine a future in which an "innocuous" bolt or lever gun might be prudent to have around for non-recreational purposes. Randy Cain's Practical Rifle class was eye-opening here as far as the potential feasibility of the bolt gun, even inside 50 yards. For this kind of work, a smooth-operating bolt is critical, and I'd also like to see ammo capacity of at least 5 rounds.

These aren't the only considerations, but these cover the main priorities I had in mind when I put together my list. I'm starting with a Tikka T3x Lite Compact in .308. Picked one up at the LGS the other day for $600+tax. I would have preferred the Lite Stainless, but that's not available with the shorter LOP stock.

I added a Tikka Performance picatinny rail, and pulled a Leupold VXR Patrol 1.25-4 from an AR upper. The ADM mount is a bit too high and too heavy for this project, and the Leupold's exposed turrets aren't ideal, but I think this is on the right track. I've got some Warne QD low rings inbound.

http://i.imgur.com/VQnxfdG.jpg

After sighting in, this was my first three shot group. Ammo was Federal GMM 175 gr, fired at 100 yards, prone with a bipod. At 4x, the thick reticle on the Leupold completely obscured the diamond bullseye, but nevertheless... I'll take that group.

http://i.imgur.com/bRV5k0d.jpg

The action is really slick, and responds well to running the bolt hard. Very nice rifle for the price.

Next week I'm dropping it off with the local 'smith to have the barrel cut to 16.5" and threaded for a Silencerco Omega. I also ordered a couple of 5 rd mags (the flush-fitting Tikka mags are 3 rd). Ideally, the gun would also have iron sights, but I'm not convinced it would be worth the extra cost and trouble to add them. Will report back when the gun is finished and I've had a chance to wring it out some.

[GJM]

I have that exact rifle, a TPC rail, NF rings and a Swaro 1-6 begging to be screwed together. An H2 would serve as great BUIS. :)

[Xrslug]

I have that exact rifle, a TPC rail, NF rings and a Swaro 1-6 begging to be screwed together. An H2 would serve as great BUIS. :)

For the collective Tikka knowledge I have to throw these put there:

http://www.aihpa.com/Sponsor/Tikka_T3_Mag_Options/Tikka_T3_Mag_Options.htm

Aluminum 10-round magazines that fit the T3x. Made in Australia. Expensive for sure but look to be very nice quality.

[GJM]

For the collective Tikka knowledge I have to throw these put there:

http://www.aihpa.com/Sponsor/Tikka_T3_Mag_Options/Tikka_T3_Mag_Options.htm

Aluminum 10-round magazines that fit the T3x. Made in Australia. Expensive for sure but look to be very nice quality.

Wow, a ten rounder on board and a fiver or two in your pocket would seem to make this rifle even more versatile. All without having to go to different bottom metal.

[LGChris]

For the collective Tikka knowledge I have to throw these put there:

http://www.aihpa.com/Sponsor/Tikka_T3_Mag_Options/Tikka_T3_Mag_Options.htm

Aluminum 10-round magazines that fit the T3x. Made in Australia. Expensive for sure but look to be very nice quality.

I ran into these when I was looking at Tikka stuff. They look really nice, but current exchange rate puts them at $136 USD each, plus int'l shipping. Don't think I need 10 rounders that bad. I got the OEM polymer 5 rd mags for $32 a piece. Couple of those in a buttstock pouch and I'm happy (provided they feed okay).

[GJM]

Just in from Wilson, a .458 Socom. Haven't shot it yet, but in physical dimensions, it fits my Alaska practical rifle niche well, as it launches a 300 grain Barnes at 1800 something fps.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsxcjtvsmu.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsxcjtvsmu.jpeg.html)

[Dagga Boy]

I have that exact rifle, a TPC rail, NF rings and a Swaro 1-6 begging to be screwed together. An H2 would serve as great BUIS. :)

That is exactly what I was thinking.....have the Swarovski sitting on my desk that was going on my 6.8 SPC....

Great looking rifle Chris.

[DamonL]

Just in from Wilson, a .458 Socom. Haven't shot it yet, but in physical dimensions, it fits my Alaska practical rifle niche well, as it launches a 300 grain Barnes at 1800 something fps.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsxcjtvsmu.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsxcjtvsmu.jpeg.html)


What type of optic do you think you will put on this?

[LGChris]

An H2 would serve as great BUIS. :)
I really like this idea as an alternative to irons. I probably won't spring for another Aimpoint just for this rifle, but it might give me an excuse to investigate some of the better budget RDS options. Hey, maybe I can even get a blog post out of that :)

[GJM]

What type of optic do you think you will put on this?

Prob a T2 for creature defense applications, and a LPV if I hunt with it. It is 14.7 pinned to get to 16, and I want to keep it as light and handy as possible. Bill Wilson says it recoils about like a .30-06.

[GJM]

I really like this idea as an alternative to irons. I probably won't spring for another Aimpoint just for this rifle, but it might give me an excuse to investigate some of the better budget RDS options. Hey, maybe I can even get a blog post out of that :)

I suspect a micro is as durable as many iron sight arrangements, easier to get an exact zero, easier to shoot in low light, and easier to shoot at things moving.

[John Hearne]

Just in from Wilson, a .458 Socom. Haven't shot it yet, but in physical dimensions, it fits my Alaska practical rifle niche well, as it launches a 300 grain Barnes at 1800 something fps.


http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/6b/6b4c607a729c22a31495ad2580d4165f6cbff0140d93626263 e626d5364dfb09.jpg

[LOKNLOD]

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/6b/6b4c607a729c22a31495ad2580d4165f6cbff0140d93626263 e626d5364dfb09.jpg

Is that Darryl holding the boombox?

His EP creds go deeper than we realized.

[okie john]

So, looking back over this entire thread, I think we’ve agreed on a few things about the practical rifle:


The rifle is defined by what it does, not by its external characteristics.
Caliber should be between roughly 6.5 and 8mm, although logistics may present a case for other choices. Bullet weight should be over 100 grains, with a sectional density of at least .250 and a velocity of at least 2,600 fps.
Weight should be between 6.5 and 8 pounds. Lighter is nice, but not necessary. Heavier is OK, especially if you need to reach way out.
Within reason, overall length is more important than overall weight. LOP matters more than barrel length.
The optics are more important than the rifle itself, and should be suited to the task. The Scout scope is no longer One Glass To Rule Them All; the low-powered variable with an illuminated reticle probably is.
Controlled-round feed is nice but only necessary for dangerous game.
Detachable magazines are nice but they force other limitations. Good ones are expensive.
Iron sights are nice, especially if they stay on the rifle when the scope is mounted. There is a lot to be said for a standing blade rear sight on the barrel. Front sights should have tritium. A rugged red-dot sight is at least as good a choice for a back-up.
Gas guns are OK for the lighter cartridges if you live in a free state and if they easily take the optics that your needs require.
Youth models are underappreciated. The length of pull is short enough, but the barrels are not as short as carbines, and the aftermarket stuff for their full-sized cousins works for them.
Most people should buy more ammo and practice with the rifle they already have.
All things are possible with Brockman.


Okie John

[GJM]

FIFY

12. All things are eventually possible with Brockman.

[secondstoryguy]

Saw this today and thought it was relevant:http://jerkingthetrigger.com/2016/09/05/mdt-lss-chassis-for-the-ruger-american-rifle/

[Robinson]

Some questions for the thread participants that occur to me after/while reading this thread:

Lever guns: a viable alternative to bolt guns or not robust enough?

Magazine capacity: is a 4-5 round internal magazine a handicap or does it make a rifle more streamlined and nicer to carry?

Barrel profile: are heavy barrels right out? What about a 16" heavy barrel with a suppressor? Too front-heavy for carrying and shooting from practical positions? (Example: Remington 700 SPS Tactical 300 BLK)

Sights: are optical sights a necessity? My rifles currently all wear aperture (ghost-ring) sights. How big a negative is that, if it is one? What benefits am I missing if I don't want magnification -- other than the light gathering characteristics of optical sights (which I perceive as a real benefit) ?

[GJM]

Some questions for the thread participants that occur to me after/while reading this thread:

Lever guns: a viable alternative to bolt guns or not robust enough?

Magazine capacity: is a 4-5 round internal magazine a handicap or does it make a rifle more streamlined and nicer to carry?

Barrel profile: are heavy barrels right out? What about a 16" heavy barrel with a suppressor? Too front-heavy for carrying and shooting from practical positions? (Example: Remington 700 SPS Tactical 300 BLK)

Sights: are optical sights a necessity? My rifles currently all wear aperture (ghost-ring) sights. How big a negative is that, if it is one? What benefits am I missing if I don't want magnification -- other than the light gathering characteristics of optical sights (which I perceive as a real benefit) ?

A lever gun, with typical lever gun cartridges, and aperture sights, gives you command of a significantly short piece of real estate, and narrower light window, than many of the rigs being discussed here. Whether that shorter distance/less light means anything to you, only you can decide.

[Dagga Boy]

Some questions for the thread participants that occur to me after/while reading this thread:

Lever guns: a viable alternative to bolt guns or not robust enough?

Magazine capacity: is a 4-5 round internal magazine a handicap or does it make a rifle more streamlined and nicer to carry?

Barrel profile: are heavy barrels right out? What about a 16" heavy barrel with a suppressor? Too front-heavy for carrying and shooting from practical positions? (Example: Remington 700 SPS Tactical 300 BLK)

Sights: are optical sights a necessity? My rifles currently all wear aperture (ghost-ring) sights. How big a negative is that, if it is one? What benefits am I missing if I don't want magnification -- other than the light gathering characteristics of optical sights (which I perceive as a real benefit) ?


My take from "not a hunter" dude.

Lever guns....these are good iron sight or micro optics guns. For something you are "shooting" a ton and a heavy working gun versuses a carrying gun, nod goes to the bolt. For what I use these for, the Lever is a solid choice. For others, the bolt makes far more sense.

Unless you are doing a bunch of prone and stable position work, the heavy barrel is a detriment to fast efficient handling. As a cop, I liked short heavy barrel guns because I usually deployed them in a manner where we drove to the problem, and had a stable place to lay or stabilize. For field carry, light and balanced is good.

Sights......irons are always good, but very limited by light and conditions. Red dots, think of them as 24/7 super fast and efficient irons. Variables....they are scopes, help you see and much better for longer range target location, ranging and making efficient hits at distance.

[Robinson]

Those are very no-nonsense replies.

For the bolt gun route, for me the biggest questions would be: Do I need to be able to mount a suppressor, and do I want/need iron sights?

So far pretty much all of my shooting has been with iron sights -- mostly apertures. However, modern red dot and LPV optics seem like attractive options depending on usage.

For my needs, not using a suppressor means "don't ever fire even a single shot without earpro unless it is to save someone's life". For general field use, no biggie -- electronic earpro could be used. For a rifle that could also fill a defensive role, a suppressor makes sense. But the barrels on most available rifles would need to be cut, re-crowned, and threaded in order to have a barrel length practical for that type of usage.

Internal dialog:

Let's see, I have a 300 BLK AR with a suppressor -- I'll just consider that my defensive rifle. But wait, my 18" Marlin 336 is so handy and I could have that threaded to accept a suppressor. Plus lever guns rock. Then my 24" 336XLR could be a general purpose rifle for anything within 100-150 yards. But a Winchester Featherweight in 7mm-08 with a LPV would be really nice and allow for longer shots. Cut the barrel to about 18" and thread for a supressor? Or would it be unwieldy at that length? Plus would cost a bunch and maybe hurt the resale value.

My head hurts.

[OlongJohnson]

Lever guns....these are good iron sight or micro optics guns. For something you are "shooting" a ton and a heavy working gun versuses a carrying gun, nod goes to the bolt. For what I use these for, the Lever is a solid choice. For others, the bolt makes far more sense.

Sights......irons are always good, but very limited by light and conditions. Red dots, think of them as 24/7 super fast and efficient irons. Variables....they are scopes, help you see and much better for longer range target location, ranging and making efficient hits at distance.

For a non-rural defensive carbine, I think a Marlin 1894 in .357 makes a lot of sense. If you believe BBTI, the longer barrel brings even standard pressure 125gr .38SPL up to about the same velocity as a good 9mm defensive load. But with the lower peak pressure and the expansion in that long barrel, it should be quieter than a pistol. So less hearing damage if fired without earpro. And massively better than any rifle cartridge from a short-ish barrel. Shooting less-than-9mm recoil from a heavier firearm, from the shoulder, should make it friendly for even a 5'4", 108-lb little lady. Ten rounds of .38SPL in the tube, which means it slides under the new ban in CA.

For those who may have eye issues that lead them to struggle with various types of irons and/or red dots, Vortex makes a compact, lightweight 1x scope for muzzle loaders that can be had for less than $70. 1x means both eyes open is easy, and having the crosshairs in the same focal plane as the target has probably never made it harder to put accurate hits on anything.

Another factor I don't think is discussed enough is the Federal law that says if you're convicted of killing somebody with a suppressor, it's an automatic 30 years with no parole opportunity added to the sentence (at least as I understand it - IANAL). Since a defensive shooting is inherently likely to be messy and confusing, that's a risk I'm not willing to take. Conceivably, just that element could change a prosecutor's approach, with all other facts identical, from "don't bother with this one" to "that's a big cherry - nail him to the wall". And the effect that law might have in swaying a non-firearms-friendly jury's perspective on your character could also be significant. I'd way rather have a Hi Power with the magazine disconnect removed locked up in my safe. In my non-LE, non-door-kicking civilian world, a suppressor is for fun and hunting.

[SteveB]

Some questions for the thread participants that occur to me after/while reading this thread:

Lever guns: a viable alternative to bolt guns or not robust enough?

Magazine capacity: is a 4-5 round internal magazine a handicap or does it make a rifle more streamlined and nicer to carry?

Barrel profile: are heavy barrels right out? What about a 16" heavy barrel with a suppressor? Too front-heavy for carrying and shooting from practical positions? (Example: Remington 700 SPS Tactical 300 BLK)

Sights: are optical sights a necessity? My rifles currently all wear aperture (ghost-ring) sights. How big a negative is that, if it is one? What benefits am I missing if I don't want magnification -- other than the light gathering characteristics of optical sights (which I perceive as a real benefit) ?

Your magazine question, indeed all of your questions relate to the purpose you envision for your rifle. An internal magazine does make the rifle easier to carry in your hand than an external magazine. Sling carry mitigates this difference and only you can decide whether 4-5 down rounds is enough (for your purpose).

As I get older, I like humping gear through the woods less, so I am not much of a heavy-barrel guy. For a practical rifle, I prefer a #1 contour barrel. I have used suppressors on bolt guns, primarily for extended range sessions lessening fatigue by reducing blast and recoil. I can't see any advantage to hanging an extra pound off the muzzle of a rifle I have to carry and shoot in the field. While I wear ear pro at the range, I never wear it hunting and never hear the shot.

[Robinson]

While I wear ear pro at the range, I never wear it hunting and never hear the shot.

Thanks for your reply. Re: your comment about earpro -- that was me before my hearing was damaged. Nowadays even if my mind doesn't register a shot I fire, I'm sure cumulative damage will occur. I can only say (at the risk of beating a dead horse) that once you incur significant damage and tinnitus it changes your perspective on guns and shooting. I'd much rather not bother with a suppressor or earpro other than at the range -- but it's not realistic in my case.

[Robinson]

Another factor I don't think is discussed enough is the Federal law that says if you're convicted of killing somebody with a suppressor, it's an automatic 30 years with no parole opportunity added to the sentence (at least as I understand it - IANAL). Since a defensive shooting is inherently likely to be messy and confusing, that's a risk I'm not willing to take. Conceivably, just that element could change a prosecutor's approach, with all other facts identical, from "don't bother with this one" to "that's a big cherry - nail him to the wall". And the effect that law might have in swaying a non-firearms-friendly jury's perspective on your character could also be significant. I'd way rather have a Hi Power with the magazine disconnect removed locked up in my safe. In my non-LE, non-door-kicking civilian world, a suppressor is for fun and hunting.

I appreciate your comment and it is something to consider. But if I were to weigh the risk of serious trouble with the law resulting from a legitimate defensive use of force vs. worse tinnitus than I have now it's not an easy choice. Neither would make for much of a life, and I'm not being flippant. Indeed my condition is almost to the point where the use of firearms in any capacity isn't worth the risk of making it worse.

[OlongJohnson]

I get it. My dad had poor hearing from being slow to jump on the earpro bandwagon while using shop equipment (saws, etc.) I had an older friend pass away from leukemia when I was about 15. I am all about the PPE. Plugs and muffs whenever I shoot anything. ATGATT on a motorcycle. Gloves and respirators when using even basic shop chemicals, etc.

[David S.]

Another factor I don't think is discussed enough is the Federal law that says if you're convicted of killing somebody with a suppressor, it's an automatic 30 years with no parole opportunity added to the sentence (at least as I understand it - IANAL).

This may be a topic for another thread: I'd like a reference or verification for this assertion.

[Malamute]

Your magazine question, indeed all of your questions relate to the purpose you envision for your rifle. An internal magazine does make the rifle easier to carry in your hand than an external magazine. Sling carry mitigates this difference and only you can decide whether 4-5 down rounds is enough (for your purpose).

As I get older, I like humping gear through the woods less, so I am not much of a heavy-barrel guy. For a practical rifle, I prefer a #1 contour barrel. I have used suppressors on bolt guns, primarily for extended range sessions lessening fatigue by reducing blast and recoil. I can't see any advantage to hanging an extra pound off the muzzle of a rifle I have to carry and shoot in the field. While I wear ear pro at the range, I never wear it hunting and never hear the shot.


I tend to carry a long gun in hand the vast majority of the time, using the sling for times I need both hands for some other task for short periods. The difference of comfort of hand carry is high on my particular list. It was one reason I didn't warm up to the CZ 527 I had. The Winchester 94 is a carry dream to many other options. My thumb overlaps my nail of the middle finger when wrapped around the middle of the gun when carrying it. Everything is a compromise, but in the hand carry part of the equation, the levers are hard to beat.

Not hearing the shot hunting doesn't mean it isn't doing damage. After messing up my hearing pretty well in my youth, and a few instances when older, I came to the conclusion that no game animal was worth losing any more hearing. If I cant get earplugs in, I wont shoot in the field unless an emergency. Suppressors arent in my budget, and aren't legal where I need to be part time, so longer-ish barrels and less blasty rounds are the general tendency. Earplugs in my pocket are standard for the past 20 years.

[OlongJohnson]

This may be a topic for another thread: I'd like a reference or verification for this assertion.

Official version:
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title18/pdf/USCODE-2011-title18-partI-chap44-sec924.pdf

More readable version:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/924

(c)
(1)
(A) Except to the extent that a greater minimum sentence is otherwise provided by this subsection or by any other provision of law, any person who, during and in relation to any crime of violence or drug trafficking crime (including a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime that provides for an enhanced punishment if committed by the use of a deadly or dangerous weapon or device) for which the person may be prosecuted in a court of the United States, uses or carries a firearm, or who, in furtherance of any such crime, possesses a firearm, shall, in addition to the punishment provided for such crime of violence or drug trafficking crime—
(i) be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not less than 5 years;
(ii) if the firearm is brandished, be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not less than 7 years; and
(iii) if the firearm is discharged, be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not less than 10 years.
(B) If the firearm possessed by a person convicted of a violation of this subsection—
(i) is a short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, or semiautomatic assault weapon, the person shall be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not less than 10 years; or
(ii) is a machinegun or a destructive device, or is equipped with a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, the person shall be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not less than 30 years.

[Duelist]

Yech.

[HCM]

Official version:
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title18/pdf/USCODE-2011-title18-partI-chap44-sec924.pdf

More readable version:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/924

(c)
(1)
(A) Except to the extent that a greater minimum sentence is otherwise provided by this subsection or by any other provision of law, any person who, during and in relation to any crime of violence or drug trafficking crime (including a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime that provides for an enhanced punishment if committed by the use of a deadly or dangerous weapon or device) for which the person may be prosecuted in a court of the United States, uses or carries a firearm, or who, in furtherance of any such crime, possesses a firearm, shall, in addition to the punishment provided for such crime of violence or drug trafficking crime—
(i) be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not less than 5 years;
(ii) if the firearm is brandished, be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not less than 7 years; and
(iii) if the firearm is discharged, be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not less than 10 years.
(B) If the firearm possessed by a person convicted of a violation of this subsection—
(i) is a short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, or semiautomatic assault weapon, the person shall be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not less than 10 years; or
(ii) is a machinegun or a destructive device, or is equipped with a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, the person shall be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not less than 30 years.

This is a federal sentence enhancement and would only apply if you were prosecuted under federal law and convicted in Federal court.

For example if the crime of violence occurred in federal jurisdiction either physically (federal property, an Indian reservation, a military base etc) or if federal jurisdiction applied due to the crime being part of a RICO conspiracy, the victim was a federal employee etc.

This would not be a factor in state prosecution involving a lawfully possessed NFA item.

Example: We (my agency and a local Sheriff's Office warrants unit) arrested a suspect who was a previously deported felon and outlaw motorcycle gang member who tried to pull a .357 magnum on us (Colt Trooper Mk III, Blued 6'' - because / Pistol-Forum). Anyway, when we encountered him, he already had an outstanding state warrant issued in another county for possession of methamphetamine, unlawful possession of a sawed off shotgun and unlawful possession of a suppressor

In the case which generated the warrant, the suspect was arrested in possession of a duffel bag containing the sawed off shotgun, the suppressor, a scale and multiple bindles of methamphetamine packaged for individual sale. After our case concluded, the suspect was transferred to the original jurisdiction, which was in the same state but in a different federal judicial district. The original arrest was made by County Sheriff's Deputies and the original charges were in state court but the local BATFE office "adopted" the case for federal prosecution due to the short barrel shotgun and the suppressor.

After the suspect was convicted on federal charges for the short barrel shotgun and the suppressor, he received an 18 USC 924 sentence enhancement because he was engaged in a drug trafficking crime at the time he was found in possession of the short barrel shotgun and the suppressor as evidenced by the scale, the amount of meth and the manner in which it was packaged.

[joshs]

Official version:
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title18/pdf/USCODE-2011-title18-partI-chap44-sec924.pdf

More readable version:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/924

(c)
(1)
(A) Except to the extent that a greater minimum sentence is otherwise provided by this subsection or by any other provision of law, any person who, during and in relation to any crime of violence or drug trafficking crime (including a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime that provides for an enhanced punishment if committed by the use of a deadly or dangerous weapon or device) for which the person may be prosecuted in a court of the United States, uses or carries a firearm, or who, in furtherance of any such crime, possesses a firearm, shall, in addition to the punishment provided for such crime of violence or drug trafficking crime—
(i) be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not less than 5 years;
(ii) if the firearm is brandished, be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not less than 7 years; and
(iii) if the firearm is discharged, be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not less than 10 years.
(B) If the firearm possessed by a person convicted of a violation of this subsection—
(i) is a short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, or semiautomatic assault weapon, the person shall be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not less than 10 years; or
(ii) is a machinegun or a destructive device, or is equipped with a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, the person shall be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of not less than 30 years.

The underlying offenses for 924(c) are supposed to be federal offenses only. That's the reason for the "court of the United States" element. This shouldn't apply to most defensive uses of a firearm equipped with a suppressor.

[rob_s]

So, looking back over this entire thread, I think we’ve agreed on a few things about the practical rifle:


The rifle is defined by what it does, not by its external characteristics.
Caliber should be between roughly 6.5 and 8mm, although logistics may present a case for other choices. Bullet weight should be over 100 grains, with a sectional density of at least .250 and a velocity of at least 2,600 fps.
Weight should be between 6.5 and 8 pounds. Lighter is nice, but not necessary. Heavier is OK, especially if you need to reach way out.
Within reason, overall length is more important than overall weight. LOP matters more than barrel length.
The optics are more important than the rifle itself, and should be suited to the task. The Scout scope is no longer One Glass To Rule Them All; the low-powered variable with an illuminated reticle probably is.
Controlled-round feed is nice but only necessary for dangerous game.
Detachable magazines are nice but they force other limitations. Good ones are expensive.
Iron sights are nice, especially if they stay on the rifle when the scope is mounted. There is a lot to be said for a standing blade rear sight on the barrel. Front sights should have tritium. A rugged red-dot sight is at least as good a choice for a back-up.
Gas guns are OK for the lighter cartridges if you live in a free state and if they easily take the optics that your needs require.
Youth models are underappreciated. The length of pull is short enough, but the barrels are not as short as carbines, and the aftermarket stuff for their full-sized cousins works for them.
Most people should buy more ammo and practice with the rifle they already have.
All things are possible with Brockman.


Okie John

I mostly agree with this. I would say "all things are possible with money" as that's really what the issue comes down to for most of us.

Also, re: "practice with the one you've got" I would amend to say "and if you don't already got then buy a M70 lightweight and a 1.x-Y optic of your choosing, put a ching sling on it, and go take Randy's PR class".

I also don't think the Aimpoint fills the bill for the "backup" thing. I go back to the "all things are possible with money" item and have to remind myself constantly that one of the criteria here for me, personally, is to not have a $3k custom rifle with $2k in glass since I'd be pretty upset if said rifle went missing or got broken. So, for me, adding a $600 optic/mount combo is (a) not really fitting the bill and (b) money I'd probably rather spend having irons installed.

[rob_s]

In re-reading my post above, and others I've made, I think I'm probably back to where I started which is the Savage Hog Hunter (http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/11HOGHUNTER/). The primary shortcomings of this gun are the push feed, 4 round capacity, and brand. The feed issue I may be relaxing a bit, and I hear there may be a way to mod it to use detachable mags (although if that eliminates the ability to top up from the bolt then that won't do). Not much I can do about the brand issue, but if it runs and shoots once I get it then I suppose it won't matter, and the brand:cost are inter-related and remembering that I don't want to lose an expensive gun is part of the deal here.

[rjohnson4405]

I didn't know Howa made a scout rifle (with standard scope mount): http://www.legacysports.com/catalog/howa/howa-scout-rifle/http://www.legacysports.com/wp-content/uploads/Howa_Scout_Feral_High_Res-1024x350.png

[David S.]

The underlying offenses for 924(c) are supposed to be federal offenses only. That's the reason for the "court of the United States" element. This shouldn't apply to most defensive uses of a firearm equipped with a suppressor.

That makes more sense. Thanks

[coldcase1984]

Found the silver Micro H1!

Yanked the 3.5-10x40 Mark4

Plopped it on Talley pic rail

Took three shots to put it .4 low at 25

Tweaked at 100 so shots go to top of dot with Creedmoor Sports 155 Scenar at nominal 2,820.

Figure they'll drop out of bottom of dot around 250-275 yards.

Looks great, shoots great.

10333

This wouldn't be my first or third choice for a fighting rifle, but if a situation arises in which I must shoot defensively, I'll do so even with the moderator on board.:)

10334

[OlongJohnson]

All those tarnished cases add a lot to the fence post pic.

And that silver H1 would look slick on top of a stainless Tikka.

[coldcase1984]

Actually the upright post on my shooting bench made from phone poles knocked down by a tornado 15 years or so back. When I was training my three kids to shoot they decided to decorate it with spent rimfire rounds.

This is my Dad's old place in the country and the two boys enjoyed standing on the post and peeing on the grass behind it; said it was more fun than the porch. It's a Southern thang...

And still may get a closeout T3 Superlite from SW for a first deer gun for my 15 month old grandson. Chop an 8 twist .223 to 16.15, thread it and maybe punch it AI to save trimming. Watched a coyote killing video the other day, the host's 6-year-old schwacked a couple big dogs with a Micro fitted, suppressed custom .223. Good times to come.

[HCM]

I didn't know Howa made a scout rifle (with standard scope mount): http://www.legacysports.com/catalog/howa/howa-scout-rifle/http://www.legacysports.com/wp-content/uploads/Howa_Scout_Feral_High_Res-1024x350.png

Are the HOWA mags proprietary ?

[OlongJohnson]

Are the HOWA mags proprietary ?

Looks like it.

http://www.legacysports.com/catalog/ammo-boost/ammo-boost-detachable-magazines-only/

[David S.]

FWIW, the "silver H1" is an R1 (http://us.aimpoint.com/product/aimpointR-micro-r-1/) and it was discontinued several years ago (late 2010, IIRC). I picked up a couple when they were being blown out on clearance at 50% off.

Apparently Midway is currently doing a limited run. (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/913115/aimpoint-micro-r-1-red-dot-sight-4-moa-with-weaver-style-mount-silver)

[rjohnson4405]

Looks like it.



And somewhat expensive.

Looks like they use Williams Peep Sights so at least you know it has quality back ups.

Besides the scope on their picture being mounted way too high, it actually looks like the rear peep could begin to interfere with lower mounting, maybe hitting the eyepiece.

Seems like another compromise in the scout/practical rifle concept.

[John Hearne]

For the guys running bolt action in an LSS chasis style rigs - how does the AR pistol grip work with the standard safety? Can you easily disengage it while bringing the rifle up as in a snap shot?

[Lost River]

For the guys running bolt action in an LSS chasis style rigs - how does the AR pistol grip work with the standard safety? Can you easily disengage it while bringing the rifle up as in a snap shot?

Works fine on the Tikka. I cannot comment on other rifles, with safeties in different positions.

[GJM]

Works fine on the Tikka. I cannot comment on other rifles, with safeties in different positions.

Good to know, as I may end up with my Tikka Compact in the LSS. In the mean time, Chris motivated me to get my Tikka Compact put together.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpspuwocdkm.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpspuwocdkm.jpeg.html)

[GJM]

Quick question. Ground halt here at our cabin, due to an unforecast storm that is blowing like crazy, so I have time to catch up in a few projects.

I am putting a NF 2.5-10 on a Tikka CTR 6.5. The Nightforce mount, a 30mm Ultralite Unimount, 1.125, incorporates a 20 moa rail. I thought the factory rail, had 20 moa, and I replaced it with a Tikka Performance Center 20 moa rail. Is that too much, 20 + 20 moa, and I need a 0 moa Tikka Performance rail, or am I fine with both?

[rjohnson4405]

Couldn't tell you for sure, but according to the website that model has 100MOA of elevation range adjustment, I would think so.

[rob_s]

Thought I'd share (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_UiCPtAtzribRn6iKDoysXTvevdafV_ooWW4lQt3N7U/edit?usp=sharing).

[GJM]

Thought I'd share (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_UiCPtAtzribRn6iKDoysXTvevdafV_ooWW4lQt3N7U/edit?usp=sharing).

No Tikka?

[David S.]

.......

[rauchman]

No Tikka?

Not speaking for "rob_s", but based on the spreadsheet criteria, I think the Tikka misses on controlled round feed and top loading?

[rob_s]

No Tikka?

Work in progress. Which model best fits?

ETA:
Both Tikka and Sako don't make it easy to know what's available in the US, nor use God's measuring system, which makes analysis difficult. At the end of the day though, for me they are just missing too many of the criteria having no sights, an enclosed bolt, 4 rounds, non-threaded, push-feed, etc.

[rob_s]

Not speaking for "rob_s", but based on the spreadsheet criteria, I think the Tikka misses on controlled round feed and top loading?

It would be helpful if they ticked at least one box besides price and barrel length...

[SMD]

the Tikka misses... top loading?

The revised Tikka T3x has a larger ejection port than the original T3. Does the T3x address rauchman's concern?

[Wondering Beard]

Work in progress. Which model best fits?

ETA:
Both Tikka and Sako don't make it easy to know what's available in the US, nor use God's measuring system, which makes analysis difficult. At the end of the day though, for me they are just missing too many of the criteria having no sights, an enclosed bolt, 4 rounds, non-threaded, push-feed, etc.

The product info PDFs for Sako have the "God's measuring system" and I believe they are all 'controlled feed'.

Here are two: http://cdn1.sako.fi/sites/default/files/85Bavarian.pdf for the Bavarian and http://cdn1.sako.fi/sites/default/files/85Hunter.pdf for the Hunter.

[FOG]

I did a competition this summer that required a lightweight .30 weapon with iron sights. I used that as an excuse to purchase a slightly used Ruger GSR. I put a backpack sling on it since the event involved running/hiking 15 miles. I also installed a Brownell mini muzzle break. I put probably 400 rounds through it in practice drills. During the competition itself I fired 180 rounds and it ran solid although the bolt got a little stiff to work towards the end.

I had so much fun with that rifle that I plan to put a low power scope on it and use it as my primary hunting rig this season. Needless to say, I dig the scout rifle concept.

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk

[SMD]

I haven't seen a LAW rifle in the flesh, but they have at least one intriguing option that's germane to this thread:

http://www.legendaryarmsworks.com/product/the-bobcat/

Heck, it's even controlled round feed.

[David S.]

The product info PDFs for Sako have the "God's measuring system" and I believe they are all 'controlled feed'.

Here are two: http://cdn1.sako.fi/sites/default/files/85Bavarian.pdf for the Bavarian and http://cdn1.sako.fi/sites/default/files/85Hunter.pdf for the Hunter.

Nice rifles that check a lot of boxes. $2,000 street price disqualifies it for me.

[GJM]

1) the Tikka T3 or T3X Compact (20 inch barrel and stock that has a spacer for standard or shorter LOP) is surely a candidate.

2) Rob, I applaud your effort to compile this info, but the most important specification to me is missing, and that is the one that is very hard to reduce to a number. "That" being how the rifle feels, and how that translates into shoot-ability. I can pick up two rifles that weigh the same, and have the same length barrel, but feel completely different. And before you ask, while I know it when I feel it, I can't reduce it to a specification. Heck, I can have a different feeling about two otherwise identical pre-64 model 70 guns, depending upon how the bolt runs in my hand, how the trigger feels, and subtle difference in stock shape/recoil pad profile.

3) as to Tikka, I would consider the following. I have previously posted extremely positive comments about the Tikka from Jim Brockman. Lost River who really knows his way around bolt guns has said he could have saved much time and money if he simply bought two Tikka rifles, good glass and a bunch of ammo on day one, instead of all the stops he has taken along the way. If you could see the wall in our cabin right now, I have six expensive Brockman model 70 based custom rifles, two Benelli M2 shotguns and two Tikka rifles out.

[rjohnson4405]

Thought I'd share (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_UiCPtAtzribRn6iKDoysXTvevdafV_ooWW4lQt3N7U/edit?usp=sharing).

Ruger Guide Gun doesn't come in 308, but it does in 30-06. Looks more expensive, but sights on barrel and a 20" threaded barrel. Already 8 pounds though.

http://ruger.com/products/guideGun/images/47118.jpg

http://ruger.com/products/guideGun/models.html

[rauchman]

1) the Tikka T3 or T3X Compact (20 inch barrel and stock that has a spacer for standard or shorter LOP) is surely a candidate.

2) Rob, I applaud your effort to compile this info, but the most important specification to me is missing, and that is the one that is very hard to reduce to a number. "That" being how the rifle feels, and how that translates into shoot-ability. I can pick up two rifles that weigh the same, and have the same length barrel, but feel completely different. And before you ask, while I know it when I feel it, I can't reduce it to a specification. Heck, I can have a different feeling about two otherwise identical pre-64 model 70 guns, depending upon how the bolt runs in my hand, how the trigger feels, and subtle difference in stock shape/recoil pad profile.

3) as to Tikka, I would consider the following. I have previously posted extremely positive comments about the Tikka from Jim Brockman. Lost River who really knows his way around bolt guns has said he could have saved much time and money if he simply bought two Tikka rifles, good glass and a bunch of ammo on day one, instead of all the stops he has taken along the way. If you could see the wall in our cabin right now, I have six expensive Brockman model 70 based custom rifles, two Benelli M2 shotguns and two Tikka rifles out.

Appreciate this info, along with rob_s's chart. It begs the question of how important is controlled feed action vs. push feed specific to the Tikka models? Also, how would the Tikka CTR rank as to the scout concept?