Milling a strengthened cylinder for .454 Casull

[Starkiller1125]

As I am still new with this forum, pardon me if this is a repeated question.

I have a Rossi .45LC/.410 carbine. I've heard talk that the newer Taurus Judge pistols can also fire the .454 Casull round. Will a Rossi's cylinder be able to withstand the pressure the .454 creates? An employee at the local gun range suggested that I have a new cylinder milled that's strong enough to shoot the .454. He also stated that there are a whole three gunsmiths who will mill custom cylinders at a cost of more than a grand.

Any info on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[HCM]

Have you asked Rossi if the gun can handle .454?

[Bigghoss]

Taurus makes a model called the Raging Judge chambered for .454/.410 shotshell. To my knowledge the regular Judge models are not made to withstand the pressures of the .454 Casull round. If you had a cylinder made that was able to handle the .454 round there is still the issue of the frame, I suspect you would see stretching of the frame, flame cutting of the topstrap and probably some other stuff.

I think Rossi makes/made a lever action rifle that is chambered for .454 Casull and those are well under $1,000, you'd be better off in every way to just find one of those.

[farscott]

As a long-time .454 shooter (I have shot FA 83 models since 1995), I definitely would not be retrofitting Rossi carbines with cylinders from unknown smiths with who knows what manufacturing capabilities. FA uses 17-4 PH steel, and Ruger worked with Carpenter to create a bespoke steel capable of handling .454 pressures for the .454 Super Redhawk. Heat treat is critical on .454 revolvers. Even with that, the round is tough on guns. For many years, FA offered a replaceable ceramic forcing cone insert for the FA 83 barrels as certain loads were eroding forcing cones in insanely low round counts.

I am aware of a few smiths who will (or would) make custom cylinders, notably Hamilton Bowen, Dave Clements, and Jim Stroh. I do not believe any of them will start with a Rossi base gun.

[LittleLebowski]

As a long-time .454 shooter (I have shot FA 83 models since 1995), I definitely would not be retrofitting Rossi carbines with cylinders from unknown smiths with who knows what manufacturing capabilities. FA uses 17-4 PH steel, and Ruger worked with Carpenter to create a bespoke steel capable of handling .454 pressures for the .454 Super Redhawk. Heat treat is critical on .454 revolvers. Even with that, the round is tough on guns. For many years, FA offered a replaceable ceramic forcing cone insert for the FA 83 barrels as certain loads were eroding forcing cones in insanely low round counts.

I am aware of a few smiths who will (or would) make custom cylinders, notably Hamilton Bowen, Dave Clements, and Jim Stroh. I do not believe any of them will start with a Rossi base gun.

Fascinating post, thank you for sharing.

[farscott]

Here is an article discussing the joint development work between Ruger and Carpenter. Carpenter used an existing steel for the cylinder and developed a new steel for the barrel due to forcing cone erosion. http://www.modernapplicationsnews.com/articles/m0401stainless.htm

[Hizzie]

Even if it were a safe idea I think the cost would be close to a new 454 from Ruger.

[Buckshot]

Even if you get the cylinder & forcing cone right, there's crane, cylinder stop & breech face strength to take into account. It's a fool's errand with a Rossi.

[Starkiller1125]

Thanks a ton for all the advice, everybody. So, what I'm gathering is basically to just buy a firearm that's either chambered for, or compatible with the .454. I always tend to like firearms that can shoot more than one caliber. Like how firearms chambered for the 5.56NATO will still fire somewhat cheaper .223rem ammo.

Thanks again everyone!

[Wondering Beard]

Guns that are made to handle the 454 can easily shoot 45 Colt and can be slightly modified to shoot 45 ACP. So you can still have multiple calibers :-)

[Hambo]

This is just a suggestion before you buy anything. Take a look at loading data for .44 Magnum, .45 Colt (Ruger, etc, not cowboy loads), .454 Casull, and .480 Ruger. There's no difference between the .44 and .45, a velocity in the .454, and heavier bullets in .480, but practically speaking there isn't much difference at all.


http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

[okie john]

Thanks a ton for all the advice, everybody. So, what I'm gathering is basically to just buy a firearm that's either chambered for, or compatible with the .454. I always tend to like firearms that can shoot more than one caliber. Like how firearms chambered for the 5.56NATO will still fire somewhat cheaper .223rem ammo.

The 454 is a very powerful cartridge with a very specialized purpose. If you need one, get one, but trying to get that level of performance with some half-assed workaround is a good way to launch parts of your gun (and maybe yourself) into outer space.

I understand the draw of firearms that can shoot more than one caliber, but I've spent enough time fiddling with them that I've given up on the idea. If you want to do it, then buy firearms chambered for the most powerful cartridge you want to fire rather than trying to upgrade a firearm to handle more powerful ammunition. For example, if you want to shoot 38 Specials, then buy a 357 Magnum. If you want to shoot 2 3/4" 12-gauge shell, then buy a shotgun that will take 3" shells. These examples have stood the test of time because of logistics, not because they're useful in many other ways.

The bigger problem is the law of diminishing returns, which arises with a quickness because the point of shooting is hitting. Your POI will change when you change between loads of vastly differing power levels, so you end up re-zeroing or relearning the Kentucky windage required to get hits. It's easier to just use the right tool for the job, plus it's a great excuse to buy more guns.

On the other hand, if you like to fiddle with ammo, loads, accessories, etc. more than you like to shoot, then multi-caliber firearms are just the ticket.


Okie John

[Starkiller1125]

I did not know that. That's great info for survivalism. In that sort of situation I would be worried about the additional wear and tear chamber compatible rounds can cause. I doubt I'd be scrounging for caliber specific barrels during the apocalypse, whereas chamber compatible rounds would be that much more ammo to fend off Raiders and whatnot. Would anyone happe to know how to adapt a cylinder for a .45ACP and still accept .45LC as well as .410 shells?

[farscott]

I did not know that. That's great info for survivalism. In that sort of situation I would be worried about the additional wear and tear chamber compatible rounds can cause. I doubt I'd be scrounging for caliber specific barrels during the apocalypse, whereas chamber compatible rounds would be that much more ammo to fend off Raiders and whatnot. Would anyone happe to know how to adapt a cylinder for a .45ACP and still accept .45LC as well as .410 shells?

S&W did such a thing with "The Governor" revolver. The issue with rifling and shot is that rifled barrels causes shot to make a doughnut pattern where shot is concentrated in a ring and very little shot is in the center of the pattern. The cylinder is so long, the jump from cylinder mouth to forcing cone for .45 LC and .45 ACP is large, creating alignment issues with the bullet. That means less than optimal accuracy.

BTW, Freedom Arms specifically cautions against shooting shorter than chamber length shells (e.g., .45 Colt in .454 Casull chambers) as bullet residue from the shorter cartridge can cause pressure spikes when the full-length cartridges are used. It can be done, but it is crucial to clean the charge holes after firing the shorter-length cartridges before using full-power Casull loads. Part of this is due to the tolerances to which FA machines the revolvers. My solution is to load everything for the gun in Casull brass.

My original reason for going to .454 Casull was for hog hunting after three shots with 300-grain hard cast .44 Magnum at 1200 fps failed to penetrate on a good-sized boar. I tried to up the velocity when the smarter solution would have been to increase the sectional density of the bullet as well as better angles on the animal. That being said, I no longer own any .44 caliber guns, moving everything to .454. I have done some experimentation with 400-grain bullets at 800 to 1000 fps as well as 335-grain bullets at 1100-1300 fps. Even the slow 400-grain rounds exhibit much better penetration than the original 300-grain .44 Magnum load without being unduly harsh on the wrists. My current approach is a long-for-caliber bullet at moderate velocities. Easier on gun and much easier on shooter's ears and wrists while providing stem-to-stern penetration of anything worth hunting.

A similar solution is the "gun hipster" .353 Casull which is a .357 Magnum revolver capable of handling 60kpsi chamber pressures. That gun handles 200-grain .357 bullets at speeds up to 1600 fps. Negative of the gun is that it is a five-shot like all of the other Model 83 guns and is much heavier than the .454 guns due to the smaller holes in the cylinder and barrel. I considered, and still wonder, about how heavy a .357 bullet that revolver could launch, but I am not willing to pay the price of entry to find out.

My FA Model 97 in .357 Magnum in front of my FA 83 in .454 Casull. The FA 97 is about the size of a Colt SAA to give one an idea about the size of a Model 83. The smaller gun is NOT a .353 Casull, just a strong .357 Magnum. For many years, it was my field gun when working on my property. FA does not recommend carrying the FA 83 guns with the hammer down on a loaded chamber as the original designs did not have firing pin blocks or transfer bar safeties, so the FA 83 is a four-shot while the .357 FA 97 can be carried fully loaded as it has a transfer bar safety.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/farscott/FreedomArms002.jpg (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/farscott/media/FreedomArms002.jpg.html)

[Malamute]

I did not know that. That's great info for survivalism. In that sort of situation I would be worried about the additional wear and tear chamber compatible rounds can cause. I doubt I'd be scrounging for caliber specific barrels during the apocalypse, whereas chamber compatible rounds would be that much more ammo to fend off Raiders and whatnot. Would anyone happe to know how to adapt a cylinder for a .45ACP and still accept .45LC as well as .410 shells?

If concerned about alpacalypse and such, Id start with very common chamberings for your guns, it makes the potential ammo pool much larger and more well distributed right off the bat. Buying quantities of ammo now* is also easier than finding it if things became difficult, like zombie hoards shuffling the streetz. Id then start with reloading components and bullet molds for your stuff, and whatever common things come along at gun shows. Ive bought spare reloading die sets for $10-$15 several times, $20-ish for things a little harder to find. Lee bullet molds are fairly cheap new, and even less so used. I prefer RCBS for dies and Lyman or other steel molds, though virtually any brand works to build ammo.

Some Ruger single action revolvers have a spare cylinder fitted for 45 auto, and at least one of their double action revolvers will work with 45 auto. Id be least concerned with 454. Its not common to find, and reloading wise, you can do most of what the 454 will do with a heavy loaded 45 Colt in appropriate guns. I live in grizzly country and have no desire for a 454, a 44 mag or 45 Colt with heavy loads is fine for me. I don't care for the muzzle blast of 454 level loads. 300/325 @ 1250 fps is enough I think. The bears don't grow all that large here.


* If you aren't buying or loading ammo in case lot and multiple case lot quantities now, you aren't doing it right. Ammo supply in difficult times should be way down the list after food. Buying both ahead of time is cheaper. Trading your favorite car to the local warlord for a weeks worth of food is suboptimal and preventable. For what one unique gun would cost, you can likely have a couple or more cases of ammo. Ammo is compact, needs no feeding, is quiet until used, and doesn't mold or get buggy on the shelf. Im using ammo bought in the 1970's, "just in case".

I keep a small Tupperware tote container (about 12x16x8"h) with reloading tool and bullet mold basics for several calibers always ready. Its for travel mainly, but is nice knowing I could grab it and have the basics to load for my favorite and most used calibers at a moments notice.