Rethinking the 357 magnum

[Eastex]

I've been carrying 38 Special Gold Dots in my J frame and my SP101, for several reasons. Obviously one is my 642 doesn't chamber 357. I use them in the Ruger mostly because follow up shots are quicker and if I had to touch one off inside the report would be less likely to damage my hearing, also the Gold Dots are a proven performer that I'm comfortable with.
The recent terror attacks are making me rethink things a bit. It seems like body armor is becoming more of a thing and the truck attack in Nice has me thinking that it would be very easy to copy cat.
I know that one of the factors in 357 magnum being originally conceived was as a way to fight back against criminals in cars. What I don't know is how it does against body armor? I suspect it isn't going to penetrate good armor but does it knock someone down enough to gain time to either get out or line up a better shot?
Also, how big of a factor would barrel length be in defeating barriers? My Ruger is a 2.25 model and if I were to commit to full time 357 I'd probably start looking at a 3 inch barrel at least, would that be enough?
P.S I know the odds of being in a terrorist attack or assault by someone wearing body armor is unlikely, I'm just rattling things around in my head. I might even be in the early stages of trying to justify a new GP100.


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[Dagga Boy]

Honestly, I do not think the juice is worth the squeeze for a majority of folks going to full house .357 in a snub. In an N frame, sure. At this point, being able to reliably hit with the 135 Gold Dot is critical and the round is a good one. Neither it or most .357 anyone would use is going through armor, so the key is the ability to make a head hit. For the 642, it is a great .38 platform. If you are going to go to a .357 load, I have a lot of experience running full .357 in the SP101, and it is a workable solution, but the GP100 is a better platform for it.

[Redhat]

Honestly, I do not think the juice is worth the squeeze for a majority of folks going to full house .357 in a snub.

I've also wondered about this. Is it your view that with such a short barrel, you don't really gain anything except muzzle blast and recoil?

I'm of the opinion that when I hear guys who base their preference on light weight, they don't seem to consider how well they can shoot the pistol or how much practice they're likely to do with a gun that is very un-pleasant to shoot.

[Luke]

With your concerns would it not be better to add capacity instead of up the caliber?

[Dagga Boy]

With your concerns would it not be better to add capacity instead of up the caliber?

Just had a conversation today with a guy in a heavyweight surveillance unit from a major agency on a dedicated car gun. He is looking at the snub S&W 627, which is exactly what I had between my seats when I had my Avalanche. The bump to an N frame with 8 rounds is a good thing, and the gun makes sense for the application where things can get very interesting with a semi auto when fighting in a car. Got me thinking about how to do a holster system of some sort in the new truck. The higher capacity larger guns are better choices for the .357 mag.

[SJC3081]

357 is quite a blast with contact body shots.

[BehindBlueI's]

I think perhaps you're asking the wrong question.

At what range does your own skill level allow you to hit the driver of a truck in motion with a snub nose revolver? At that distance, whatever it may be, is the best answer to shoot or to Get The Fuck Out Of The Way?

Are you giving up an advantage during the still far more common unarmored assailant vs the rare armored assailant, with no real gain in defeating armor? Would, perhaps, bypassing the armor and shooting at unarmored areas be more effective?

Is a snub really what you want to go with to engage armored assailants or vehicle borne assailants regardless of ammo selection? Is that really the right tool for the job?

[farscott]

Honestly, I do not think the juice is worth the squeeze for a majority of folks going to full house .357 in a snub. In an N frame, sure. At this point, being able to reliably hit with the 135 Gold Dot is critical and the round is a good one. Neither it or most .357 anyone would use is going through armor, so the key is the ability to make a head hit. For the 642, it is a great .38 platform. If you are going to go to a .357 load, I have a lot of experience running full .357 in the SP101, and it is a workable solution, but the GP100 is a better platform for it.

Would you please explain what issues you have with .357 and the SP-101?

My primary personal issue was muzzle torque, which I solved with Weigand's "Tame the Beast" Hybra-Porting. Now the gun actually recoils downward a bit. The other issue was grips. For me, the correct grips are the original rubber grips with the inserts. The Weigand combo makes the gun shootable, but it is a heavy beast. I even experimented with reducing weight. BTW, the grips below look okay and are horrible grips as a consistent grip is not possible. When I do carry a revolver (usually on my property), it is this three-inch SP-101. I actually won a bet with my sister-in-law shooting this gun in DAO at a target much farther away than she thought I could shoot.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/farscott/RedDragon10.jpg (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/farscott/media/RedDragon10.jpg.html)

[camsdaddy]

My issue with the SP101 and 357 is the sharp edges on the trigger. I find the far side of the trigger cuts my finger under recoil. I have a 3" and am considering a 2" for pocket carry because I find the 3" far more shootable than my 60 J frame. If I did get a SP I would round the trigger some how.

[farscott]

My issue with the SP101 and 357 is the sharp edges on the trigger. I find the far side of the trigger cuts my finger under recoil. I have a 3" and am considering a 2" for pocket carry because I find the 3" far more shootable than my 60 J frame. If I did get a SP I would round the trigger some how.

Marc Morganti at Gemini Customs can handle the trigger edges. He did that to all of mine.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/farscott/RedDragon9.jpg (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/farscott/media/RedDragon9.jpg.html)

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/farscott/Gemini_Customs_SP-101_2-9.jpg (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/farscott/media/Gemini_Customs_SP-101_2-9.jpg.html)

[camsdaddy]

I may need to give them a call. I wonder what the turn time on just a trigger would be

[eb07]

I did some chrono work on my KLCR comparing +p to 357

Here is what I recorded

Hand loads using an F-1 Shooting Chrony at 10 feet. 1800 feet above sea level. 95 degrees.

135gr Speer GDHP Short Barrel 9.6gr Power Pistol 357 Magnum

Speer’s Advertised factory velocities are 990 fps.

The book has this load at 1137 fps out of a 2.5″

Ruger LCR with 1.875″ barrel
High – 1269
Low – 1221
Avg – 1252 FPS – 470 ft lbs energy

135gr Speer GDHP Short Barrel 6.0 gr Power Pistol 38 +P

Speer’s Advertised factory velocities are 860 fps

The book has this load at 983 fps out of a 2.5″

Ruger LCR with 1.875″ barrel
High – 908.7
Low – 830
Avg – 875 FPS – 230 ft lbs energy

Out of the Colt Cobra 2″ Barrel ( which is what I specifically loaded these for)
High – 931.2
Low – 876.2
Avg – 897 FPS – 241 ft lbs energy

135gr Speer GDHP Short Barrel 6.4 gr Power Pistol 38 +P

Speer’s Advertised factory velocities are 860 fps

The book has this load at 1065 fps out of a 2.5″

Ruger LCR with 1.875″ barrel
High – 1108
Low – 1031
Avg – 1066 FPS – 341 ft lbs energy

So in conclusion, Using the Ruger LCR with 1.875″ barrel as a baseline….

The difference between the low end 38+p and the 357 magnum:

473 fps 315 ft lbs energy

The difference between the high end 38+p and the 357 magnum:

282 fps 204 ft lbs of energy

[psalms144.1]

eb - thanks for posting that detailed information! I don't think anyone is doubting how much more "oomph" the .357 has over the .38. I think Nyeti's juice vs squeeze comment (which I COMPLETELY agree with) is that the loss of shootability when up gunning to the .357 defeats the purpose of a small, lightweight backup gun.

Don't get me wrong, I know there are some superhumans out there who can shoot buffalo bore heavy .357 loads through S&W 340s like they're .22s, but for the overwhelming majority of us, the .357 is too much of a good thing in a package as small and light as a j-frame...

[eb07]

eb - thanks for posting that detailed information! I don't think anyone is doubting how much more "oomph" the .357 has over the .38. I think Nyeti's juice vs squeeze comment (which I COMPLETELY agree with) is that the loss of shootability when up gunning to the .357 defeats the purpose of a small, lightweight backup gun.

Don't get me wrong, I know there are some superhumans out there who can shoot buffalo bore heavy .357 loads through S&W 340s like they're .22s, but for the overwhelming majority of us, the .357 is too much of a good thing in a package as small and light as a j-frame...


Before I broke my hand playing ball, I could handle 357 full house of of the LCR and I carried it that way. My semi was a G29 with nuclear 10mm loads. I still shoot them but as I am relearning and having grip and wrist issues that I need to work through, I have moved to 9mm in the Glocks and 38+P in the 442. I do not feel like I downgraded whatsoever. I shot the 38+P faster before the surgery so I always knew it was the logical choice over the 357 in the snub just from a follow up shot stand point.


I think where the 357 really shines is in 4 inch or longer barrels accuracy and velocity wise.

[Dagga Boy]

I have found that the practice needed to shoot nuke loads out of magnum snubs in our younger years makes it so you will not be doing it in your later years. On the good side, big heavy revolvers shooting .38 specials is my arthritis therapy and is likely the recipe that will let me shoot longer.

[Wobblie]

I have found that the practice needed to shoot nuke loads out of magnum snubs in our younger years makes it so you will not be doing it in your later years. On the good side, big heavy revolvers shooting .38 specials is my arthritis therapy and is likely the recipe that will let me shoot longer.

That's where I'm headed. My ears won't let me practice with .40 and 9 anymore no matter how I load them or how much hearing protection I wear. The hands are getting arthritic too. Sucks getting old.

[EM_]

Just had a conversation today with a guy in a heavyweight surveillance unit from a major agency on a dedicated car gun. He is looking at the snub S&W 627, which is exactly what I had between my seats when I had my Avalanche. The bump to an N frame with 8 rounds is a good thing, and the gun makes sense for the application where things can get very interesting with a semi auto when fighting in a car. Got me thinking about how to do a holster system of some sort in the new truck. The higher capacity larger guns are better choices for the .357 mag.

Safariland is doing the ALS for a J Frame. I wonder if something could be cooked up similar for an N frame. Rig it up so it's hard mounted and the retention keeps it in place in the event of a collision...

[Velo Dog]

The .38 Special +P GDHP Short Barrel is a good compromise load, as is the Winchester 130 gr. bonded hollow point.
Although wadcutters are often recommended for defensive use in snubs, they will not penetrate car doors, and perform poorly against auto glass. While a .357 Mag loading should have the potential for deeper penetration, it is unlikely to matter in the case of body armor. Still...I like options. If I were carrying a magnum snub, I might be tempted to keep a speed strip of these https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAAYUIbAMgw

[Buckshot]

I've spent a lot of time with the SP101 loaded with both full-house & mid-range magnums. It is a reasonably controllable platform, but I agree with Nyeti, it ain't worth the squeeze unless you specifically need a hot 38 with a flashbang grenade attached to it. There has been a little bit of modern bullet development for 38 Special, but 357 Mag is really an afterthought for defensive ammo development now. I wonder if 135 Gold Dot +P isn't as effective as the 357 stuff out there - i'll let Doc Roberts figure that out. 357 Magnum is also more sensitive to barrel length than most cartridges - a 6" barrel 357 is a whole 'nother thing in comparison to an SP101 in terms of bullet performance.
If you're worried about defeating soft body armor or sheet metal, 357 out of a 2"-3" barrel probably ain't gonna cut it (unless you have an old box of Roadmaster ammo set aside :cool: ). Think 7.62 Tok or something chambered for a rifle round.

[Malamute]

I have found that the practice needed to shoot nuke loads out of magnum snubs in our younger years makes it so you will not be doing it in your later years. On the good side, big heavy revolvers shooting .38 specials is my arthritis therapy and is likely the recipe that will let me shoot longer.

On the Smith forum (or maybe castboolits forum?) a while back a guy posted about shooting 75,000 wadcutters through his model 27. Sounded like a very worthy goal, and a very enjoyable one.

[1slow]

I have found that the practice needed to shoot nuke loads out of magnum snubs in our younger years makes it so you will not be doing it in your later years. On the good side, big heavy revolvers shooting .38 specials is my arthritis therapy and is likely the recipe that will let me shoot longer.

I am in a similar place after lots of 4'' .500 linebaugh Bowen Redhawk, 4" .44 Mag, 4'' .500 S&W and .357 snubbies. I thought I would harden to the work. I did but the work also damaged me some.

Now I mainly shoot .45acp, 9mm and .38 special out of full size pistols. Some .38 snubbies. Some .45 super/HK USP 45 and big bore revolver.

[Malamute]

I am in a similar place after lots of 4'' .500 linebaugh Bowen Redhawk, 4" .44 Mag, 4'' .500 S&W and .357 snubbies. I thought I would harden to the work. I did but the work also damaged me some.

Now I mainly shoot .45acp, 9mm and .38 special out of full size pistols. Some .38 snubbies. Some .45 super/HK USP 45 and big bore revolver.

That is one aspect of single action revolvers that wasnt mentioned in the SA specific thread now going. For any given caliber/load, single actions have been easier on my hands than DA revolvers. I guess they could be considered geezer guns in that regard.

[deputyG23]

I haven't owned or been issued a .357 sixgun in years. All of my small and medium revolvers are strictly .38s. I found that .357 in a K frame or Dan Wesson 4" gun is simply too obnoxious for me. Too much blast and recoil in my opinion. If I find a shooter grade .357 Blackhawk in about a 6.5 barrel length at a good price, I may revisit it strictly for fun.

[Hizzie]

This is where the GP100 pulls ahead of the 681/686. Full on screaming 125's are no big deal out of my Wiley Clapp. Same load out of the old 681PC Quad Port I used to carry would leave me sore the next day. The weight distribution and that grip peg work wonders.

[Wayne Dobbs]

This is where the GP100 pulls ahead of the 681/686. Full on screaming 125's are no big deal out of my Wiley Clapp. Same load out of the old 681PC Quad Port I used to carry would leave me sore the next day. The weight distribution and that grip peg work wonders.

Nyeti and I still remember with happy thoughts the sound of you launching six lusty magnums from your WC GP-100 and the wonderful tinkling sound of the cases hitting the deck followed (quickly) by the sound of a speedloader clicking and six more dropping into place. It was as near heaven as you can get on Earth.

[deputyG23]

This is where the GP100 pulls ahead of the 681/686. Full on screaming 125's are no big deal out of my Wiley Clapp. Same load out of the old 681PC Quad Port I used to carry would leave me sore the next day. The weight distribution and that grip peg work wonders.
This is good to know. The Dale City, VA gun show yesterday had a vendor with about five WCs on the table. I was very tempted to whip out the Visa card....

[BehindBlueI's]

This is good to know. The Dale City, VA gun show yesterday had a vendor with about five WCs on the table. I was very tempted to whip out the Visa card....

It's my favorite current production revolver. I've almost bought a stainless to go with my blue a few times because reasons.

[Duces Tecum]

It seems like body armor is becoming more of a thing . . .

I think body armor is more of an accuracy problem than a penetration problem.

Faceshots.

[Hizzie]

Nyeti and I still remember with happy thoughts the sound of you launching six lusty magnums from your WC GP-100 and the wonderful tinkling sound of the cases hitting the deck followed (quickly) by the sound of a speedloader clicking and six more dropping into place. It was as near heaven as you can get on Earth.

You humble me Sir.

[Rex G]

I doubt I will ever again fire normal-pressure .357 with an SP101 again, at least not with my ailing right hand/wrist. The last time I remember doing so was at Michael DeBethancourt's mini-class at the Snubby Summit in 2005, when recoil was still fun. Within a year or so of that time, I had started using mid-pressure Magnums in the five-guns.

Full-pressure 125-grain .357 Magnum is why the Good Lord inspired someone to develop the GP100, and to design the original-style factory grip to fit my hand perfectly. The incident that got my name listed on a site, that lists police officers who have shot "civilians," happened two weeks after I started carrying my first GP100, in 1993. I had intended the GP100 to be an interim duty handgun, between my old-school P220 with a heel-clip magazine release, and a newer-style P220 with the push-button mag release, but I discovered the newer P220 had a totally redesigned grip frame, which did not suit me, so I kept carrying .357 revolvers on duty until 1997, and was still bringing a GP100 to work, as a spare handgun, for special/long-range situations, until late 2006, when I finally convinced myself I could shoot a P229 almost as well as a GP100, and started bringing a spare P229, instead..

[Hizzie]

Pachmayr Compacs take all the sting outta hot 125's in the SP101 for me.

[El Cid]

Just had a conversation today with a guy in a heavyweight surveillance unit from a major agency on a dedicated car gun. He is looking at the snub S&W 627, which is exactly what I had between my seats when I had my Avalanche. The bump to an N frame with 8 rounds is a good thing, and the gun makes sense for the application where things can get very interesting with a semi auto when fighting in a car. Got me thinking about how to do a holster system of some sort in the new truck. The higher capacity larger guns are better choices for the .357 mag.

No experience with their stuff but I've been tempted by this concept.

http://www.daraholsters.com/mounted-holsters

[Willard]

Would you please explain what issues you have with .357 and the SP-101?

My primary personal issue was muzzle torque, which I solved with Weigand's "Tame the Beast" Hybra-Porting. Now the gun actually recoils downward a bit. The other issue was grips. For me, the correct grips are the original rubber grips with the inserts. The Weigand combo makes the gun shootable, but it is a heavy beast. I even experimented with reducing weight. BTW, the grips below look okay and are horrible grips as a consistent grip is not possible. When I do carry a revolver (usually on my property), it is this three-inch SP-101. I actually won a bet with my sister-in-law shooting this gun in DAO at a target much farther away than she thought I could shoot.

That is a beautiful revolver. I respectfully don't care for any insignia on the grips, but otherwise, I'd love to own its twin.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/farscott/RedDragon10.jpg (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/farscott/media/RedDragon10.jpg.html)

[MistWolf]

As I recall, the 357 magnum load the FBI used for penetrating engine blocks was a 158 gr semi-wadcuter driven to 1600 fps from a 6 inch barrel. Needless to say, that kind of performance is going to be difficult to duplicate from a snubbie.

They also issued Colt 1911s chambered in 38 Super to use against gangsters that were starting to use "bullet proof vests"