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ASH556
07-20-2016, 12:25 PM
I'll start by saying that I've never shot a USPSA match before. I've shot some 3gun, both outlaw and 3gn style, and some indoor GSSF matches, but that's really the extent of my formal competitive shooting. In wanting to focus more on developing pistol skill, I'm intrigued by the notion of shooting USPSA. From an equipment standpoint, I have a CR Speed belt, Safariland ALS holster, Comp-Tac mag pouches, and a stock Gen4 Glock 17 with Dawson FO chargers.

Due to my achievement-oriented nature, I want to classify as GM in production. Having never shot a classifier before, are there some other benchmarks I can look at to get a rough idea where I may fall in the field as I begin this process? Something like FAST score, The Test, or other benchmarks?

scw2
07-20-2016, 12:52 PM
If I recall correctly, John Hearne tried to map different classifications against level of automaticity, with the feedback of many on the forum.

9263

45dotACP
07-20-2016, 12:53 PM
Work on SHO/WHO shooting as well as shooting whilst leaning around a barricade

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taadski
07-20-2016, 01:40 PM
I'd recommend shooting a couple matches before doing any goal setting. They have a bit of a different flavor than the shooting sports you mentioned trying.

But to answer your question, the best benchmarks for the respective USPSA classes are the classifiers themselves. Mind you, those scores aren't going to correlate directly to actual match performance necessarily, but that's another topic all together.

The classifiers vary a bunch in difficulty, often with no apparent rhyme or reason. But collectively, they're the barometer by which you're going to be measured within the classification system.

Print a few out, go set em up and see where your scores shake out. With the understanding that you'll be shooting them under pressure, in the middle of a match, one time for all the marbles, etc... when you're actually getting classified.

Here's a list of them:

https://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-classifier-list.php

Here's an online classifier calculator that's a good handy resource. If you plug in your hit factor (points accrued/time), it'll plot your percentage and class for you based on current classifier data.

https://azshooters.org

Luke
07-20-2016, 01:55 PM
AZ shooter also has a killer IOS app that doesn't need cell signal to use, which is nice on some ranges. But what taadski said, if you wanna get classified as a GM all you have to do is shoot GM scores on those classifiers 6 times.

Mr_White
07-20-2016, 02:38 PM
I'd recommend shooting a couple matches before doing any goal setting. They have a bit of a different flavor than the shooting sports you mentioned trying.

But to answer your question, the best benchmarks for the respective USPSA classes are the classifiers themselves. Mind you, those scores aren't going to correlate directly to actual match performance necessarily, but that's another topic all together.

The classifiers vary a bunch in difficulty, often with no apparent rhyme or reason. But collectively, they're the barometer by which you're going to be measured within the classification system.

Print a few out, go set em up and see where your scores shake out. With the understanding that you'll be shooting them under pressure, in the middle of a match, one time for all the marbles, etc... when you're actually getting classified.

Here's a list of them:

https://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-classifier-list.php

Here's an online classifier calculator that's a good handy resource. If you plug in your hit factor (points accrued/time), it'll plot your percentage and class for you based on current classifier data.

https://azshooters.org

Excellent points by taadski.

All I would say is that I was lucky to squeak into B class as my initial classification. I think Luke's initial classification was A though, so that just goes to show that I am not special, and a dedicated person can accomplish a lot, very quickly. So maybe don't saddle yourself with either the likely disappointment of too-high expectations, or the yoke of low expectations. Have no expectations - seems like I have heard that before, and it's easier said than done. ;)

The USPSA classification system has a lot of things wrong with it, but it still is one of the most meaningful measures of general pistol shooting skill. It does a great job of crushing the ego, as USPSA matches do in general.

Your attempt at prediction and comparison may be partly confounded if your non-USPSA drill scores were shot in a much less stressful environment than a match, which for many people is very stressful. And, a person can reach skill classifications in USPSA through different combinations of personal strengths and weaknesses as shooters. As a B, I was very accurate but lagged on time. There are plenty of Bs who are not as accurate, but considerably faster than I was. As you rise in the rankings, you must be both accurate and fast, and to a greater and greater degree. But at the lower and mid-level rankings, you can get there different ways.

Here's another attempt at a chart-of-comparative-ranks-and-skills that was kind of group-built a while back. Always good fodder for fun discussion!

https://c6.staticflickr.com/8/7450/12122402613_ec37136846_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/jtdtXB)Skills_zps102fc8f7_03 (https://flic.kr/p/jtdtXB) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

JCS
07-20-2016, 03:20 PM
If I recall correctly, John Hearne tried to map different classifications against level of automaticity, with the feedback of many on the forum.

9263

So basically, grandmasters are dang near automatic robots at shooting.


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Peally
07-20-2016, 03:26 PM
GMs have just automated a lot of the things (correctly mind you) that other people consciously have to think about. That's the ideal we all train for as far as fundamentals.

The top GMs are the automatic robot bullet dealing machines.

nycnoob
07-20-2016, 03:55 PM
Others on this forum have endorsed Ben Stoeger's practice regime as a way to get to GM

I find even the Dry Fire par times to be a challenge

http://benstoegerproshop.com/3-book-combo-pack-dry-fire-training-for-the-practical-pistol-shooter-practical-pistol-reloaded-and-skills-and-drills-paperback-books/

Clusterfrack
07-20-2016, 05:45 PM
This is all excellent advice. I'll add that my primary goal is to be competitive in my current class (A Production) and classifier skills alone won't make me a match winner. I spend much more time practicing USPSA competition skills than I do classifier skills. In fact, I'm worried I'll move up to M before I'm ready to compete at that level.

JCS
07-20-2016, 06:02 PM
Not sure how much it will help but Mike Seeklander is offering his competition training book for free right now. It's not mentioned on the same level as the Stoeger stuff but I believe he is a grandmaster as well.


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Luke
07-20-2016, 06:29 PM
Book seems kinda cool. I'm still not sold on following someone else's plans. Any of you top shots have anything in that?

GJM
07-20-2016, 07:11 PM
If my main goal was to be a Production GM as quickly as possible, I would learn to shoot "like you are on crack" fast, and let the accuracy follow. I think it is easier to learn to be accurate than fast, and a commitment to accuracy can make learning to be fast very hard.

Luke
07-20-2016, 07:12 PM
If my main goal was to be a Production GM as quickly as possible, I would learn to shoot "like you are on crack" fast, and let the accuracy follow. I think it is easier to learn to be accurate than fast, and a commitment to accuracy can make learning to be fast very hard.

As a crack head who shoots fast this is good to here but have a hard time believing that.


Edit: GJM, I think? You read my journal. Am I making a mistake dialing it back? Should I continue blazing and see if accuracy catches up? End goal is world class GM. Like national titles and DVD's.

GJM
07-20-2016, 07:18 PM
As a crack head who shoots fast this is good to here but have a hard time believing that.


Edit: GJM, I think? You read my journal. Am I making a mistake dialing it back? Should I continue blazing and see if accuracy catches up? End goal is world class GM. Like national titles and DVD's.

Luke, beats me, I am just an A trying to progress.

I do know the way to make GM for most everyone is the classifier system, and that is very speed intensive. You can shoot 100 percent of the points on every classifier and still be a B or C.

Clusterfrack
07-20-2016, 07:26 PM
I'm a fan of Steve Anderson's approach. Train speed ("Speed Mode") separately from accuracy ("Accuracy Mode"), and then shoot matches by simply seeing your sights and calling your shots ("Match Mode").

olstyn
07-20-2016, 07:37 PM
You can shoot 100 percent of the points on every classifier and still be a B or C.

Truth. I'm right in the middle of C class right now. My best classifier to date is 63.5% - it was all alphas on Mini-mart (CM99-21), but it took me a hair under 8.5 seconds. 10.62 or better HF is a GM run on that one. All alphas in 5.65 seconds does it, but so does 6 alpha, 6 charlie in 4.5 seconds. Gotta have serious speed either way, but if you've got a LOT of speed, you can get a little bit sloppy and still wind up with a good score.

Leroy
07-20-2016, 07:54 PM
Classifiers are draw, reload, and transition intensive. If your a seasoned shooter but have not benn exposed to USPSA classifiers I would suggest a lot of transition practice and learning to shoot with a semi to full target focus. Your more likely to see SHO and WHO on classifiers but only maybe %10. The way the system is designed it favors the shooter who shoots a ton of classifiers and pushes the edge on the classifiers.

taadski
07-20-2016, 08:26 PM
As a crack head who shoots fast this is good to here but have a hard time believing that.


Edit: GJM, I think? You read my journal. Am I making a mistake dialing it back? Should I continue blazing and see if accuracy catches up? End goal is world class GM. Like national titles and DVD's.

Luke,

I've heard more than one world class GM state that learning the accuracy component is much easier than trying to learn the speed. I know that flies in the face of the hive-mind (:p ducks head) but there it is... I don't think "dialing it back" is at all the answer, FWIW. I also don't think accuracy will "catch up" without deliberate attention either. I think working the "modes" independently in training is likely the fastest way forward. And developing an excellent match mode based completely on your vision for game day.

Mind you this is all coming from an accuracy turtle who has been working hard the last few years to come to terms with the speed requirements of this sport.


t



EDIT: I was typing while Clusterfrack was posting. :D Yeah, what he said...

Luke
07-20-2016, 09:06 PM
I like that man. How do you work accuracy and how do you work speed separately?

GJM
07-20-2016, 09:29 PM
I like that man. How do you work accuracy and how do you work speed separately?

Well for you, you need to learn to shoot accurately. :)

Clusterfrack
07-20-2016, 10:18 PM
I like that man. How do you work accuracy and how do you work speed separately?

Steve Anderson's book Get to Work (https://www.amazon.com/Get-Work-Practice-Points-Second/dp/0692229345/) has some really good descriptions of the three shooting modes. I'll summarize them below:

Accuracy Mode: measure and track your gains in accuracy. Do not judge speed. E.g. shoot an El Pres at 25 yds with all A's and don't worry about the time.

Speed mode: Measure and track your gains in speed. Do not judge accuracy. E.g. shoot an El Pres as fast as you can and don't worry about the points.

Match mode: Focus on seeing your sights and calling each shot as the gun fires as acceptable or unacceptable. Do not think about accuracy or speed while you are shooting. E.g. shoot an El Pres and be able to tell what your hits were without looking at the targets.

I set my goal prior to each drill during practice. Am I working to make gains in accuracy or speed, or am I testing them together in match mode? Right now, I don't work in accuracy mode for very long. I'll shoot some groups and ring small steel at 45 yds, but most of my practice (live and dryfire) is in speed and match modes.

YVK
07-20-2016, 10:55 PM
Based on what I got from talking to dudes who made GMs, to become one this shit has to take over your life. Or become your life, however you want to call it.

rob_s
07-21-2016, 04:52 AM
In this case I'll be part of the hive.

It's much easier to learn to go fast than it is to learn to be accurate.

Leroy
07-21-2016, 07:25 AM
In this case I'll be part of the hive.

It's much easier to learn to go fast than it is to learn to be accurate.
For USPSA competition my experience has been opposite of this. I am a USPSA Master class shooter, been shooting USPSA for ten years, and my strengths are consistency and accuracy, I am not fast enough. I have unfortunately been left behind by some of the faster guys who 5-6 years ago would shoot very fast and inaccurately but overtime they just kept the speed and the accuracy came, I use to beat some of them. They now kick my ass. I have had a hard time getting faster at the same pace they got more accurate. I have shot roughly 88% at the last 2 Productional Nationals, I am having a hard time building the speed to catch up to those guys at or above the 90%. If your goal is to shoot GM classifiers your typically going to get higher HF dropping some points at blazing speed rather than trying to guarantee A's.

Armiger
07-21-2016, 09:56 AM
Do you want to be an actual GM, or just have a GM classification?

I've always been bad at pacing myself. I'm always in a hurry, always do things way too fast, often to a fault. - But when I started shooting USPSA, I realized it wasn't a bad thing. I'm pretty bad at stand 'n shoots. I think its a mental thing, mostly. - However, I typically do pretty good on field courses. Mostly because of the speed in which I do them at.

To poorly paraphrase a Stoeger podcast: "Repetition doesn't make speed. Driving your toyota corolla around town for 200,000 miles gets you lots of repetition, but it doesn't make you ready for the race track."

From the moment anyone picks up a handgun they're trying for accuracy. Lots of people are capable of shooting ragged holes standing still under no time constraints. Make them move (at all) and the wheels start to come off. Make them move quickly and its something different entirely.

It seems to me that most will choose to move slowly and retain what accuracy they can, as opposed to learning how to operate while running around like a crackhead.

rob_s
07-21-2016, 10:01 AM
For USPSA competition my experience has been opposite of this. I am a USPSA Master class shooter, been shooting USPSA for ten years, and my strengths are consistency and accuracy, I am not fast enough. I have unfortunately been left behind by some of the faster guys who 5-6 years ago would shoot very fast and inaccurately but overtime they just kept the speed and the accuracy came, I use to beat some of them. They now kick my ass. I have had a hard time getting faster at the same pace they got more accurate. I have shot roughly 88% at the last 2 Productional Nationals, I am having a hard time building the speed to catch up to those guys at or above the 90%.
My guess is that everybody thinks the other guy has it easier.

The guy that starts out trying for dime-sized groups for a decade and then discovers USPSA finds that he has trouble leaving that accuracy standard behind. The guy that started out wildly blazing away with "combat accuracy" at various timmy classes and then tries competition suddenly finds it difficult to hit the A-zone reliably.


If your goal is to shoot GM classifiers your typically going to get higher HF dropping some points at blazing speed rather than trying to guarantee A's.
As a regular listener to his podcast, I think your current reigning USPSA Production world champ would disagree with you. In fact, I believe he won this past year without winning a single stage, simply by focusing on hits rather than time.

I think... no I KNOW that I can "win" C-class, or maybe even B some places, by hauling ass and making up misses with time. I don't think that's the case at A and above, and pretty certain it's not the case at M and above. That's said more as a fan and observer of the game than a winner, or even participant of late, unfortunately.

45dotACP
07-21-2016, 10:15 AM
Heh....and here I am both slow AND inaccurate!

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Sal Picante
07-21-2016, 11:31 AM
Based on what I got from talking to dudes who made GMs, to become one this shit has to take over your life. Or become your life, however you want to call it.

Well... Sort of?

I mean, I like shooting, I like the people involved in the sport and so the sport takes up a lot of my life.

The reality is that you have to be involved in some level/capacity with the sport. It doesn't have to rule your life. You don't need to shoot all the majors. You don't need to become an RO and run matches. But you do need to enjoy being there and planning a bit for the endeavor: e.g. Do you have an ammo budget/reload? Do you have access to a good range? Are you able to meet the time commitments involved in practice?

All that said, I think if I wasn't shooting, I'd be doing other things at the same level of intensity. I've joked with a few friends that when they outlaw guns, I'll just start playing ping-pong...


Regarding what to practice and how; forget the "tastes great less filling" arguments. Figure out where you stand, then see what you suck at and make plans to DO THAT SHIT more.

How do you know what you suck at? Pick 5 classifiers that you can set up at your range: Try El Pres, Tight Squeeze, Neuvo El Pres, Front Sight 2, and High Standards.
(Same basic target layout and ease of setup)

Shoot them. Figure out your score (HF). Figure out what % that is using AZshooters App. Figure out a %-age.

Ok, now, qualitatively: What did you mess up? Did you hit the no shoots? Did you go to fast? Did you drop too many points?
Pick one and start working on that shit right away.

Jared
07-21-2016, 12:47 PM
Well... Sort of?

I mean, I like shooting, I like the people involved in the sport and so the sport takes up a lot of my life.

The reality is that you have to be involved in some level/capacity with the sport. It doesn't have to rule your life. You don't need to shoot all the majors. You don't need to become an RO and run matches. But you do need to enjoy being there and planning a bit for the endeavor: e.g. Do you have an ammo budget/reload? Do you have access to a good range? Are you able to meet the time commitments involved in practice?

All that said, I think if I wasn't shooting, I'd be doing other things at the same level of intensity. I've joked with a few friends that when they outlaw guns, I'll just start playing ping-pong...


Regarding what to practice and how; forget the "tastes great less filling" arguments. Figure out where you stand, then see what you suck at and make plans to DO THAT SHIT more.

How do you know what you suck at? Pick 5 classifiers that you can set up at your range: Try El Pres, Tight Squeeze, Neuvo El Pres, Front Sight 2, and High Standards.
(Same basic target layout and ease of setup)

Shoot them. Figure out your score (HF). Figure out what % that is using AZshooters App. Figure out a %-age.

Ok, now, qualitatively: What did you mess up? Did you hit the no shoots? Did you go to fast? Did you drop too many points?
Pick one and start working on that shit right away.

I'm not a GM, and I'm not really much of a participant anymore since I went back to school, but I whole heartedly agree with this. Every time I made real gains, it came from working hard at the things I sucked at.

Peally
07-21-2016, 01:01 PM
Funny how that works huh :D

Luke
07-21-2016, 01:07 PM
So if you really suck making hard shots with hard leans the best thing to do is shoot and dry fire a bunch of hard shots with hard leans? Is it as simple as that?

Armiger
07-21-2016, 01:27 PM
If I identified hard leans as a major sticking point in my game you best believe I'd be spending a whole load of time behind a barricade, both dry and live.

Alternatively, I've seen some high level guys take hard lean shots SHO or WHO to avoid having to contort their whole bodies into an awkward position for just 1-2 shots. Are you comfortable with your single handed shooting? Is the time spent on the hard lean worth throwing some charlies and scootin off to the next position?

Luke
07-21-2016, 01:37 PM
That was just an analogy. Although I do need some work on awkward position shooting. That was just the best thing that seemed simple in my mind. I didn't want to ask a question that had a bunch of answers if that makes sense. I have shot one handed to avoid the leans. Just last week I shot one handed so I could start running away sooner (I took too many shots at steel and had a standing reload :( ) so I reloaded and started to run away while I capped the close target through the port in the A zone. It was beautiful.

Jared
07-21-2016, 01:56 PM
So if you really suck making hard shots with hard leans the best thing to do is shoot and dry fire a bunch of hard shots with hard leans? Is it as simple as that?

Sure. I mean, it takes a ton of work, and I wouldn't work on one thing to the total exclusion of everything else (unless hitting a wide open A zone standing upright with both hands on the gun was a major challenge. Then it'd probably better be 100% trigger control for a while or a trip to an eye Dr ).

Put it like this, when I was working hard on improving my 25 yard shooting, I spent a lot of dry fire time on 50 yard simulated shots. 25 yard targets looked HUGE on live fire days in comparison to the itty bitty stuff I'd been dry firing. Mr-White turned me on to that. When I struggled on plates, I spent a lot of time with B8 repair centers. Stuff like that.

Like I said before, I'm no GM, and I do not get to game like I once did. But I did learn a lot about how to improve. And I think it was mentioned before, but I'll repeat, go to Stoeger's pro shop, buy all the books and DVDs. They're worth every penny. Buy Steve Anderson stuff too. Buy Brian Enos book. They all have things to teach. They all help.

Armiger
07-21-2016, 01:57 PM
That was just an analogy. Although I do need some work on awkward position shooting. That was just the best thing that seemed simple in my mind. I didn't want to ask a question that had a bunch of answers if that makes sense. I have shot one handed to avoid the leans. Just last week I shot one handed so I could start running away sooner (I took too many shots at steel and had a standing reload :( ) so I reloaded and started to run away while I capped the close target through the port in the A zone. It was beautiful.

Busted for being that guy answering rhetorical questions. Womp womp.

Luke
07-21-2016, 02:08 PM
Busted for being that guy answering rhetorical questions. Womp womp.

It wasn't rhetorical. And thank you for your response. I was trying to avoid a question that was answered like this: "well, you could work on your trigger control, and then grip, and sight alignment...ect. " I was looking for a clean cut answer, which you have me. So thank you :)

Armiger
07-21-2016, 02:16 PM
Oh, alright. I assumed you were just being funny. In that case...

If it's a shooting related problem, then it is grip, sights, trigger. Every time.

So further dissect the problem, what about the hard lean is messing that up? Are you holding the gun funny because you're leaned? Are you accepting a bad sight picture? Are you jerkin' it because you're bent in half?

Sal Picante
07-21-2016, 03:32 PM
So further dissect the problem, what about the hard lean is messing that up? Are you holding the gun funny because you're leaned? Are you accepting a bad sight picture? Are you jerkin' it because you're bent in half?

^ This. So much this!

Get specific on what you're sucking at!

What is a hard lean?
What does a hard lean do to the fundamental of shooting that changes the game?


Keep in mind that, in a match, you just don't want to loose your ass on any stage. Keep in mind that everyone else is probably going to have to hard lean too.
Are you just rushing and doing poorly rather than accepting that it just may take longer to break a shot and being ok with that?

Armiger
07-21-2016, 03:55 PM
Are you just rushing and doing poorly rather than accepting that it just may take longer to break a shot and being ok with that?

This part right here....

One of the things I find myself doing sometimes is rushing through spots in the course of fire where I need to ease off the throttle and take the extra few tenths to make sure those shots count. Chances are, if I'm rushing through and getting bad hits, everyone else has to slow down there too.

When I dissect my stage performances, even when I do well, I often find places where I can shave time by doing something better/faster and in turn use that time saved to slow down where needed. The more I compare my runs and those of other shooters helps me to recognize those scenarios. Even on match day, always learning and getting better.

Luke
07-21-2016, 05:09 PM
That's what I wanted to know. Just trying to learn all I can about practicing.

redbone
07-21-2016, 05:40 PM
You are getting a lot of advice. Some of it is good.

Is any of the advice coming from actual GMs? (Les? Gabe? They might actually be GMs now. I'm not certain.)

but I am certain you are getting a lot of advice on how to be a GM from people that aren't GMs.

Peally
07-21-2016, 05:42 PM
Les' Pepperoni is indeed a GM.



Apostrophe intentional.

Luke
07-21-2016, 05:43 PM
You are getting a lot of advice. Some of it is good.

Is any of the advice coming from actual GMs? (Les? Gabe? They might actually be GMs now. I'm not certain.)

but I am certain you are getting a lot of advice on how to be a GM from people that aren't GMs.

That's the beauty of the Internet. Gabe is close to a GM shooting limited minor. Les IS a GM, top 20 in the country as well. I so wish I had a super legit training partner. It's a tough road just you and the Internet.

Sal Picante
07-22-2016, 10:22 AM
Les' Pepperoni is indeed a GM.

I'm just a paper GM, tho...

GJM
07-22-2016, 10:25 AM
I'm just a paper GM, tho...

I thought it was real GM with the CZ and paper with the 92? :)

Sal Picante
07-22-2016, 11:27 AM
I thought it was real GM with the CZ and paper with the 92? :)

Yup - equipment makes all the difference... ;)

Mr Pink
07-24-2016, 10:00 AM
I'm just a paper GM, tho...That shit will get you killed on the streets!