How to shoot like a navy SEAL

[JCS]

Has anyone read this book by Chris Sajnog? I just picked it up on Kindle because it's free right now. Just curious if it was legit content? I'm not sure if it's allowed to share the link to get the book.


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[Chris Rhines]

It's mostly pretty legit. I would consider his advice to release the trigger only to the reset point, to be profoundly bad. But that's the only bad point.

[ragnar_d]

He was on a podcast I listen to recently and seemed like a fairly grounded guy and laid out why he was doing what he was doing. Just picked it up for my kindle, so we'll see how it is.

[OnionsAndDragons]

He was on a podcast I listen to recently and seemed like a fairly grounded guy and laid out why he was doing what he was doing. Just picked it up for my kindle, so we'll see how it is.

I heard that too. He sounded like a good dude. Off to the Kindle Store...

[RJ]

Downloaded and skimmed about half of it last night.

I'd say it was not for a noobie; for example, he uses terms ("sight picture"), but doesn't explain them until later. So it might be overwhelming at first.

Nothing dramatically innovative I've seen in the first part, just fundamentals. This is surrounded by, preceded, and followed, by a lot of tough, terse patriotic prose, which seems to me to get in the way of the message.

I'm glad to have the opportunity to read it for free, though. I would not buy this book, mainly because I don't need to shoot like a Navy Seal.

[Hambo]

One of my best friends was a SEAL and he says creative writing was the hardest part of BUDS. ;)







This is a joke, take it as well as my bud does.

[LittleLebowski]

One of my best friends was a SEAL and he says creative writing was the hardest part of BUDS. ;)







This is a joke, take it as well as my bud does.

Most of the truly badass dudes I know have humility and humor as part of their character.

[SamAdams]

Shoot like a SEAL ?

In addition to natural ability and drive, - I imagine having taxpayer funded training time, instruction, and a mountain of ammo doesn't hurt !

[Chance]

One of the better books I remember coming across when I was first starting out was Tactical Pistol Shooting (https://www.amazon.com/Tactical-Pistol-Shooting-Guide-Tactics-ebook/dp/B00563M3AQ/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1469026974&sr=8-1), cowritten by Mike Pannone. It's been a while since I've looked at it, but I recall it being pretty solid.

[Greg]

Gah! Because of this thread I bought 6 Kindle books (at least Sajnog's was free).

This stinking site costs money even when it ain't guns/holsters/ammo/classes..... :cool:

[Dagga Boy]

It's mostly pretty legit. I would consider his advice to release the trigger only to the reset point, to be profoundly bad. But that's the only bad point.

Dang, we were profoundly shooting the crap out of bad guys doing that. Now I feel really bad that it was wrong....or not.

[Chris Rhines]

Dang, we were profoundly shooting the crap out of bad guys doing that. Now I feel really bad that it was wrong....or not.
Uh, okay. I profoundly shot the crap out of a shitload of paper and steel doing that, until I learned a better way. One that didn't have me short-stroking the trigger every so often.

[Casual Friday]

Gah! Because of this thread I bought 6 Kindle books (at least Sajnog's was free).

This stinking site costs money even when it ain't guns/holsters/ammo/classes..... :cool:

Slight thread drift. My wife was busy and she asked me to log onto Amazon and download a free kindle book for her. 20 minutes later, I had ordered a few odds and ends, and brand new exhaust for my Harley. Was she upset with me for buying some inexpensive random shit and a somewhat expensive exhaust system for my bike? No, not at all. What she was upset with me about was the fact that I had not downloaded her free book.

[Wondering Beard]

Uh, okay. I profoundly shot the crap out of a shitload of paper and steel doing that, until I learned a better way. One that didn't have me short-stroking the trigger every so often.

I'm not going to argue whether releasing the trigger only to the reset point is bad (if you shoot better not doing that, that's great for you and drive on), however, if you kept short stroking the trigger while riding to reset only, I would suggest you were doing it wrong.

[Chris Rhines]

I'm not going to argue whether releasing the trigger only to the reset point is bad (if you shoot better not doing that, that's great for you and drive on), however, if you kept short stroking the trigger while riding to reset only, I would suggest you were doing it wrong.
Doing it wrong, how exactly? I'm genuinely curious here.

[Peally]

If you released the trigger to the reset point, but you didn't release far enough and the gun didn't go off, I'd call that doing it wrong :D

[Clusterfrack]

"Riding the sear" is a common technique among competitive shooters.

[Peally]

I've always shot like that. What's the alternative, fully letting the trigger all the way out every shot regardless of difficulty?

[Dagga Boy]

If you released the trigger to the reset point, but you didn't release far enough and the gun didn't go off, I'd call that doing it wrong :D

This, also....what kind of guns, and what kind of shooting? Book title and application. Like the unit referenced, we shot Mostly DA/SA SIGs and HK's. Later Glocks and LEM HK's as well. Application is also on what should be assessed human targets without a walk through. Of course I got the release to reset from the competitive side (Tommy Campbell) but found it worked well with stock DA/SA service pistols run by regular folks. It was heavily incorporated into the follow through with me when I trained with Larry Vickers. So, while there are other ways to maybe shoot steel and paper faster, I would suggest that "Profoundly bad" is a bit of an overreach.
Also, for what it's worth, the only actual case of short stroking in a shooting we had was early into teaching trigger reset we had a guy who carried a P-220 on SWAT and a .45 Colt S&W Revolver in patrol get into a shooting and skipped every other cylinder with the revolver. It was obvious that his training with the DA/SA Sig became his go to. The dinosaurs of profoundly bad tend to teach this as a means to maintain total control of the trigger during very high stress conditions as opposed to running the reset only to the most minimal reset point. If you are short stroking regularly....you are obviously cutting it too close for what you can control. Also, are we talking speed gains that are faster than assessment speed? If so, again, not an apples to apples application.
If the book was "Shoot like Rob Leatham", I would not even have commented. Actually, I debated for a day about commenting, and likely shouldn't have.

[Chance]

Nevermind. Darryl preemptively answered all my questions. :)

[Mr_White]

The problem associated with riding the reset only to that minimal point is trigger freeze. If the trigger is only allowed to move forward enough to reset and there is thus no margin for error, as soon as the shooter gets tense (from stress, from pressure, from trying to move as quickly as they can, maybe because of external pressure, etc.) the reset gets short-stroked. Since there's no margin, trigger freeze happens.

I've seen releasing the trigger ONLY to the point of reset to be pretty commonly taught in defensive training. That's how I was taught in the beginning. At one point, even though I still believed in the idea as 'better', I caught myself letting the trigger further forward than that (but still maintaining finger-trigger contact) when trying to shoot accurately at greater speeds. In trying to do that, I unconsciously discarded the actual technique of riding the reset, even though I didn't intend to. It was an unconscious solution to trigger freeze.

Later, I heard about the other side of the coin, where people talk about slapping the trigger (finger going all the way forward inside the trigger guard and back to hit the trigger again.) This is usually discussed in the context of competitive shooting, using a gun that has a very short and light trigger. I think this extreme may be impractical with guns that have more difficult triggers.

At this point, I make sure students in a basic pistol class understand that there is a reset point and they do have to let the trigger at least that far forward in order to fire again, and that they should maintain finger-trigger contact until they stop shooting, but that it's ok if they let the trigger further forward than the reset point. After that, and as people keep training and developing, I think they will unconsciously use trigger technique appropriate to the shot at hand. I probably do sometimes still ride the reset - when I'm shooting a difficult enough shot that trigger freeze simply isn't going to happen because of how much the gun must be settled out of motion and how careful I have to be with the trigger. On easier shots, I tend to let the trigger out further.

[Tamara]

Langdon got me to stop trying to ride the reset (which was causing me to pin the trigger) which led to the single biggest improvement in my pistol shooting I've seen in the last six years. *shrug*

[Chris Rhines]

Pretty much what Mr. White said.

I used to ride the reset, and I thought that it was a good technique. But every so often, I would short-stroke a shot, and that would ruin whatever string or engagement I was working on. Eventually, I did some experimenting with letting the trigger out to its rest position, and I found that there was no significant difference in split time or accuracy.

So, anyway. I'm not gonna use or recommend a technique that has a significant disaster factor and minimal or no upside. If some people find it useful, okay.

[Chris Rhines]

I've always shot like that. What's the alternative, fully letting the trigger all the way out every shot regardless of difficulty?
That's what I do. I don't always succeed at it, but my goal is to have only one trigger press.

[Mr_White]

Dang, we were profoundly shooting the crap out of bad guys doing that.

Wow, you guys survived while riding the reset AND doing the FBI crouch??? ;)

Good to see you back Darryl!

[Dagga Boy]

Wow, you guys survived while riding the reset AND doing the FBI crouch??? ;)

Good to see you back Darryl!

Likely, temporary. I vowed myself to stay in the revolver forum and post pictures, and obviously lack the discipline to do this. There are several methods to this out there, and most are very much gun and shooter centric. So I should be letting my finger go all the forward on my LEM gun....or my DA/SA stuff? While most complain of the LEM being hard to shoot now because of trigger movement (which is the idea). I think most have figured out that pinning and then slowly releasing to reset is not optimal for efficiency for better shooters. We call that "Kindergarten Reset"......and is what a lot of non-dedicated folks can only get to, but beats them slapping the crap out of the trigger. As folks advance, the return of the trigger becomes part of follow through. Some guns you can likely easily get away with going all the way forward. Others become a ton of wasted movement. I find that simply building in a consistent return for the system you are using works for the types of guns we see, and the type of shooting we train. Again, my issue was not that there are other ways to run a trigger, it was the "profoundly bad".
On a good note with my time away. I got to spend some time with a couple legendary gunfighters (everyone was wearing black fanny packs), and centered me up again about how unimportant most of this stuff is in the big picture of what I am interested in, which is strictly using a firearm in a use of force context. I'll go back to the revolver forum where it is just assumed nobody has a clue and let you guys get back to what you do. Sorry for the interruption.

[Chance]

Likely, temporary. I vowed myself to stay in the revolver forum and post pictures, and obviously lack the discipline to do this.

Well, your effort is not for naught. If you've noticed, we now have a "likes received" associated with all of our posts. You're the most well liked person in the forum (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?21416-PF-2-0&p=473531&viewfull=1#post473531). Proof people appreciate you taking the time. :)

[Mr_White]

Likely, temporary. I vowed myself to stay in the revolver forum and post pictures, and obviously lack the discipline to do this. There are several methods to this out there, and most are very much gun and shooter centric. So I should be letting my finger go all the forward on my LEM gun....or my DA/SA stuff? While most complain of the LEM being hard to shoot now because of trigger movement (which is the idea). I think most have figured out that pinning and then slowly releasing to reset is not optimal for efficiency for better shooters. We call that "Kindergarten Reset"......and is what a lot of non-dedicated folks can only get to, but beats them slapping the crap out of the trigger. As folks advance, the return of the trigger becomes part of follow through. Some guns you can likely easily get away with going all the way forward. Others become a ton of wasted movement. I find that simply building in a consistent return for the system you are using works for the types of guns we see, and the type of shooting we train. Again, my issue was not that there are other ways to run a trigger, it was the "profoundly bad".
On a good note with my time away. I got to spend some time with a couple legendary gunfighters (everyone was wearing black fanny packs), and centered me up again about how unimportant most of this stuff is in the big picture of what I am interested in, which is strictly using a firearm in a use of force context. I'll go back to the revolver forum where it is just assumed nobody has a clue and let you guys get back to what you do. Sorry for the interruption.

Sorry to hear that, I thought your return meant the butthurt had subsided. :(

[Mr_White]

Well, your effort is not for naught. If you've noticed, we now have a "likes received" associated with all of our posts. You're the most well liked person in the forum (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?21416-PF-2-0&p=473531&viewfull=1#post473531). Proof people appreciate you taking the time. :)

Indeed.

Here's how the likes work:

Epic cop rants are worth at least a dozen likes apiece, frequently thirty or more.

Funny one-liners are worth the next most.

You get a couple likes for posts about how to shoot pistols well, but that's a distant third, lol.

[Chance]

Indeed.

Here's how the likes work:

Epic cop rants are worth at least a dozen likes apiece, frequently thirty or more.

Funny one-liners are worth the next most.

You get a couple likes for posts about how to shoot pistols well, but that's a distant third, lol.

I get that, and I've voiced my concerns (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?21416-PF-2-0&p=473569&viewfull=1#post473569) about that. However, I have found over and over again, that the people with real-world experience, who show up and take the time and effort to share their hard earned knowledge, legitimately have no idea how valuable they are. Anytime I meet one of these people, I try to take a brief moment to pull them aside and give them a genuine 'thank you' for their participation here, and elsewhere. That doesn't sound like much, but it means a lot. It's easy to conclude you're speaking into a vacuum that doesn't give a shit.

So no, I'm not the biggest fan of the 'likes received' thing, but when it demonstrates a member's importance to his/her community, then I think it's worth it.

[Mr_White]

I hear you there Chance. Those are valid concerns you expressed, and I agree that both experienced people and the like button add fun dimensions to the forum.

[Hambo]

On a good note with my time away. I got to spend some time with a couple legendary gunfighters (everyone was wearing black fanny packs), and centered me up again about how unimportant most of this stuff is in the big picture of what I am interested in, which is strictly using a firearm in a use of force context. I'll go back to the revolver forum where it is just assumed nobody has a clue and let you guys get back to what you do. Sorry for the interruption.

I've really been worried about the fanny pack thing, but my wife says only brightly colored fanny packs are on our "Shoot me if I ever wear..." list. Black socks with sandals are still on it though.

[Mr_White]

I've really been worried about the fanny pack thing, but my wife says only brightly colored fanny packs are on our "Shoot me if I ever wear..." list. Black socks with sandals are still on it though.

My wife showed me a picture last night of someone wearing Vibram Five Fingers, with flip flops. I threatened to get some tabi boots and wear them with flip flops. She was not amused lol.

[Dagga Boy]

Sorry to hear that, I thought your return meant the butthurt had subsided. :(

Actually, I was afraid GJM might pass me on "likes"...;). I figure they are up there just to antagonize Mr. "hey I trolled you", as I never knew how to see them, but GJM was glued to them like the stock ticker.

I need to stay out of the Romper Room/General section. Unfortunately, this thread became technical gun stuff related and I got hooked in when I bit the spinner bait rolling by.

[Dagga Boy]

If that's what it takes to keep you around, do this:

9266

I already got everyone with "Seattle" under their name on ignore. I actually like to read some of the stuff in here, but that may be the answer:p.

[Tamara]

I'll go 'head and ragequit again if it'll make Darryl hang around a bit longer.

[Chance]

I'll go 'head and ragequit again if it'll make Darryl hang around a bit longer.

Quit trolling for 'likes' dude. It's unbecoming of you.

On an unrelated note: I agree, so everyone be sure to 'like' me too.

[john c]

Langdon got me to stop trying to ride the reset (which was causing me to pin the trigger) which led to the single biggest improvement in my pistol shooting I've seen in the last six years. *shrug*

What's "pinning the trigger?" I'm not familiar with the concept.


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[Dagga Boy]

I'll go 'head and ragequit again if it'll make Darryl hang around a bit longer.

You are likely the one thing that keeps making me come back, so that won't work. I should be dropping a nuke in the revolver section when the box of legends arrives this week.

[SGT_Calle]

My book "How to Shoot Like an Army Bandsman" will be out later this year.
And when I say "book", it's more like a pamphlet... And when I say "out" I really mean I'll fax the three page aforementioned pamphlet to anyone who would like it.


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[BehindBlueI's]

What's "pinning the trigger?" I'm not familiar with the concept.


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Holding the trigger all the way to the rear while the gun recoils, letting it settle, then letting trigger forward to reset.

[Tamara]

What's "pinning the trigger?" I'm not familiar with the concept.

I would define it as: Holding the trigger back until the gun's mostly settled out of recoil and I'm finessing another sight picture, and then letting it out only far enough to mechanically reset.

ETA: BBI is succincter and therefore fasterer.

[Tamara]

My book "How to Shoot Like an Army Bandsman" will be out later this year.
And when I say "book", it's more like a pamphlet... And when I say "out" I really mean I'll fax the three page aforementioned pamphlet to anyone who would like it.

You've been around long enough that you saw this the first time 'round, but I can't resist when you chum the water like this. :D

9267

[SGT_Calle]

You've been around long enough that you saw this the first time 'round, but I can't resist when you chum the water like this. :D

9267

How did I miss this the first time around?!?!
Fantastic!
I went to the rifle range with my National Guard Army Band unit this weekend, there's a FB post/maybe new romper room topic brewing.



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[JCS]

I have been pinning the trigger ever since I started shooting. I recently discovered I was doing it wrong! It's been a really hard habit to break. Really really hard.


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[LSP552]

I have been pinning the trigger ever since I started shooting. I recently discovered I was doing it wrong! It's been a really hard habit to break. Really really hard.


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It's not a bad way to start learning a DA/SA, with two conditions. First, I like to move beyond the reset but not all the way out to the end of the trigger travel. This gives you just a bit of wiggle room to combat trigger freeze. The second, is to move the student fairly quickly to resetting the trigger during recoil. I'm talking service DA/SA here, and this technique works very well for that.

Trigger control is a continuum just like sight alignment. It's all about doing what you need to do to make the shot under the speed and accuracy requirements for the environment.

[Casual Friday]

"When you wanna kill the infidels, but your new mixtape is fire."


9267

[JCS]

It's not a bad way to start learning a DA/SA, with two conditions. First, I like to move beyond the reset but not all the way out to the end of the trigger travel. This gives you just a bit of wiggle room to combat trigger freeze. The second, is to move the student fairly quickly to resetting the trigger during recoil. I'm talking service DA/SA here, and this technique works very well for that.

Trigger control is a continuum just like sight alignment. It's all about doing what you need to do to make the shot under the speed and accuracy requirements for the environment.

I'm shooting a Glock :/


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[Wondering Beard]

Doing it wrong, how exactly? I'm genuinely curious here.

It seems that your question got anwered before I got a chance :-)

Your post in response to Mr White makes a lot of sense and actually puts forward why and how you were doing it wrong and I'm glad that you found a technique that works well for you. For me, I can feel when the reset happens so that no matter how tense I got (some of the NTI scenarios and Tac Conference do make one tense :)) I never had a short stroke. However, when I moved to a DAO Third gen S&W (it was a loaner at a match, the single stack version as I can't remember the model number) I short stroked just about every other round because my fingers were used to Glocks and 1911s which goes to show that we all need to practice to the specific gun and find what works for us individually.

[Luke]

If your thinking about what your doing with your trigger finger during recoil your doing it wrong. If you have only one type trigger press your doing it wrong. Shoot just bro. Spank that trigger! If it's a tight accurate shot, spank it gently. I have 3 main trigger presses.

1. Spank it like you paid $75 for it on a trip out of town and you'll never be back and your work doesn't drug test.

2. Spank it just hard enough that it's gonna let you keep spanking it. Think log term, wife type trigger.

3. Spank it like you just got the go ahead for the first spanking. This is important to you, don't mess it up. Firm direct spanking leaving no room for error.


Speed makes all of these more challenging.

Don't forget to search and assess.

[LSP552]

I'm shooting a Glock :/


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Resetting during recoil works with plastic also:)

[Erik]

You are likely the one thing that keeps making me come back, so that won't work.

9270

[Tamara]

Resetting during recoil works with plastic also:)

Exactly. People talk about how one big advantage of SFA triggers is how they have only one pull, and then they pull them through a full stroke on the initial shot and try and let them only out far enough to reset on subsequent ones? How's that "only one trigger pull"? Isn't that making them into miniature DA/SAs? ;) :D

[MGW]

What's "pinning the trigger?" I'm not familiar with the concept.


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How I learned to follow through when I was shooting very light bullseye triggers. Also an extremely difficult habit for me to break.

[MGW]

If your thinking about what your doing with your trigger finger during recoil your doing it wrong. If you have only one type trigger press your doing it wrong. Shoot just bro. Spank that trigger! If it's a tight accurate shot, spank it gently. I have 3 main trigger presses.

1. Spank it like you paid $75 for it on a trip out of town and you'll never be back and your work doesn't drug test.

2. Spank it just hard enough that it's gonna let you keep spanking it. Think log term, wife type trigger.

3. Spank it like you just got the go ahead for the first spanking. This is important to you, don't mess it up. Firm direct spanking leaving no room for error.


Speed makes all of these more challenging.

Don't forget to search and assess.

Are you still talking about shooting firearms or did we just drift into an episode of Archer?

[Luke]

Best way I can describe it man. I also like the term "raping" the trigger but was worried if that was too "ehhh.." Seems like spanking and sexual wording was the next best step.


I do firmly believe people spend too much time working slow smooth trigger pulls when they should be railing on it.

[taadski]

If your thinking about what your doing with your trigger finger during recoil your doing it wrong. If you have only one type trigger press your doing it wrong. Shoot just bro. Spank that trigger! If it's a tight accurate shot, spank it gently. I have 3 main trigger presses.

1. Spank it like you paid $75 for it on a trip out of town and you'll never be back and your work doesn't drug test.

2. Spank it just hard enough that it's gonna let you keep spanking it. Think log term, wife type trigger.

3. Spank it like you just got the go ahead for the first spanking. This is important to you, don't mess it up. Firm direct spanking leaving no room for error.


Speed makes all of these more challenging.

Don't forget to search and assess.



AKA "The perverted Manny Bragg". :cool:

[Dagga Boy]

Best way I can describe it man. I also like the term "raping" the trigger but was worried if that was too "ehhh.." Seems like spanking and sexual wording was the next best step.


I do firmly believe people spend too much time working slow smooth trigger pulls when they should be railing on it.

The biggest issue we had was people railing on triggers in fights and not ending them. I have found actual humans move and change how much is available quickly, so it seems to me that deliberate control of the trigger is needed to hit critical parts of the human adversary....which with a pistol are small areas. Now, if you are talking shooting in sport shooting events.....whatever works, and I have no opinion worth discussing. For people....Frank Hamer does a pretty good job of explaining it for a guy who dumped over fifty opponents in gunfights.


"The great thing about shooting with a six gun is to hold it steady and not shoot too quick. What I mean is this: a man who is afraid, who is nervous, cannot shoot straight with a six shooter grasped in his hand. The muzzle will wobble with every nervous pulse beat in his hand.... When you've got to fight it out with a six shooter the only sure way is to make the first shot count....Take it slow and cool. Don't get excited"

Also, just had a long lunch with one of the most accomplished police gunfighter's of our time last Saturday. Huge advocate of total control.

On big thing I picked up from Vickers was how to get that trigger reset as part of my follow through. Thinking about it as follow through I simply ask where do I want to start the next press from for maximum efficiency. That place is likely a totally slacked out trigger sitting right at the wall. Of course, I am that guy who looks at every shot needing to be an individual assessed event, others shoot with different parameters and ideas about appropriate application of lethal force, and do different things.

[Robinson]

Langdon got me to stop trying to ride the reset (which was causing me to pin the trigger) which led to the single biggest improvement in my pistol shooting I've seen in the last six years. *shrug*

Tamara, was this when you were still using a 1911 or after you transitioned? I'm curious because I'm a 1911 user and can't wrap my head around riding the reset on a 1911 trigger. I'm not challenging your post, just want to understand it.

[breakingtime91]

Exactly. People talk about how one big advantage of SFA triggers is how they have only one pull, and then they pull them through a full stroke on the initial shot and try and let them only out far enough to reset on subsequent ones? How's that "only one trigger pull"? Isn't that making them into miniature DA/SAs? ;) :D

Tam! I tried to tell someone this earlier this year and I just got blank face syndrome..

[Tamara]

Tamara, was this when you were still using a 1911 or after you transitioned? I'm curious because I'm a 1911 user and can't wrap my head around riding the reset on a 1911 trigger. I'm not challenging your post, just want to understand it.

I pinned the trigger all through my 1911 years. Ernie dropped that epiphany on me last October.

[Tamara]

On big thing I picked up from Vickers was how to get that trigger reset as part of my follow through. Thinking about it as follow through I simply ask where do I want to start the next press from for maximum efficiency. That place is likely a totally slacked out trigger sitting right at the wall. Of course, I am that guy who looks at every shot needing to be an individual assessed event, others shoot with different parameters and ideas about appropriate application of lethal force, and do different things.

Huh. So you don't "ride the reset" at all. You let it reset itself and prep it in recoil so that as you're acquiring your next sight picture, you're ready to break your shot, should you need to.

Gamer. ;)

[john c]

Holding the trigger all the way to the rear while the gun recoils, letting it settle, then letting trigger forward to reset.

Is this just a speed issue, or are there other reasons not to do this? One thing I've learned from this forum is that I "flip and press." As another shooter mentioned, I was taught to do this for Bullseye shooting. I guess I should stop doing this?

[Dagga Boy]

Huh. So you don't "ride the reset" at all. You let it reset itself and prep it in recoil so that as you're acquiring your next sight picture, you're ready to break your shot, should you need to.

Gamer. ;)

I ride the reset in recoil. I was with a very long time experienced instructor in Larry's class and we realized we were riding the reset after recoil because of demo'ing it a bunch of cops as students who can barely qualify. We both got a wake up to having created a bad habit from exaggerated demonstrations. I am doing the exact same thing, just a whole lot faster and at the appropriate point in the shooting process.

[Tamara]

Is this just a speed issue, or are there other reasons not to do this? One thing I've learned from this forum is that I "flip and press." As another shooter mentioned, I was taught to do this for Bullseye shooting. I guess I should stop doing this?

The best way I can interpret it...

Way #1: Break shot. Gun recoils. Hold trigger to the rear. Acquire second sight picture. Let trigger start to reset. When you feel the click, press next shot.
Way #2: Break shot. Gun recoils. Let trigger reset and prep trigger for next shot. Acquire second sight picture. When sight picture is adequate, press next shot.

The difference between the two is that in the first one, your cue to break the shot is actually the tactile sensation from your trigger finger rather than the visual confirmation that your sights are on target or not.

Your sight picture should always be the driver for deciding when to break a shot.

[Dagga Boy]

The best way I can interpret it...

Way #1: Break shot. Gun recoils. Hold trigger to the rear. Acquire second sight picture. Let trigger start to reset. When you feel the click, press next shot.
Way #2: Break shot. Gun recoils. Let trigger reset and prep trigger for next shot. Acquire second sight picture. When sight picture is adequate, press next shot.

The difference between the two is that in the first one, your cue to break the shot is actually the tactile sensation from your trigger finger rather than the visual confirmation that your sights are on target or not.

Your sight picture should always be the driver for deciding when to break a shot.

Way #1 is generally how it is taught during initial training in order to get to #2. Things are dependent on where folks stop the training. The reason Way #1 is an initial training thing is that it is slow, and by the time the shooter feels the reset, they have had more than enough time to find the sights. I find way #2 in your description to be the goal for total control of every shot. We try to have folks weened off of way #1 as soon as they are capable. Distance to target and complexity of shot may dictate what comes sooner, re aligned sights or the trigger reset and staged to break, but the process is essentially the same.

Again, people shooting in other kinds of venues don't need that level of control and are looking for different performance gains. I find it different rather than profoundly bad.

[cheshire_cat]

Way #1 is generally how it is taught during initial training in order to get to #2. Things are dependent on where folks stop the training. The reason Way #1 is an initial training thing is that it is slow, and by the time the shooter feels the reset, they have had more than enough time to find the sights. I find way #2 in your description to be the goal for total control of every shot. We try to have folks weened off of way #1 as soon as they are capable.
The problem is that way #1 creates a training scar. I have observed at a very limited level many people slowly reset and then when they hear the click of the Glock, do a quick trigger jerk. I used to do it myself, because I was trained that way. Why not just teach recovering the trigger during recoil? The way I go by is that it is ok to go fully off the pressure wall as long as it is prepped before the next shot is made.

[Hambo]

My book "How to Shoot Like an Army Bandsman" will be out later this year.
And when I say "book", it's more like a pamphlet... And when I say "out" I really mean I'll fax the three page aforementioned pamphlet to anyone who would like it.


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Don't sell yourself short. You need to follow that up with Army Bandsman Fitness, Breaking Band Training: How Regular Guys Can Become Army Bandsmen, 100 Deadly Skills: The Bandsman's Guide to Eluding Pursuers, Evading Capture, and Surviving Any Dangerous Situation, and Bandsman Self Discipline. If you ever run out of SEAL books to knock off, which is highly unlikely, you can get a ghostwriter and do novels about an Army Bandsman and his elite band saving the world.

[Gray222]

Huh. So you don't "ride the reset" at all. You let it reset itself and prep it in recoil so that as you're acquiring your next sight picture, you're ready to break your shot, should you need to.

Gamer. ;)

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?21105-Things-that-will-absolutely-get-you-killed-on-the-streets&p=474849&viewfull=1#post474849

[s0nspark]

Nothing dramatically innovative I've seen in the first part, just fundamentals. This is surrounded by, preceded, and followed, by a lot of tough, terse patriotic prose, which seems to me to get in the way of the message.


Yeah... I've read most of the book but got worn out trying to wade through the prose. Seems the material would benefit from being more direct... and a lot less wordy.

I think some shooters approach a book like this as if reading it brings mastery (or at least competency) much like they try to buy skill with gear. Of course, we know real gains will only come from putting exercises into action rather than from simply mentally absorbing the material. Shooting may be 90% mental but dang if that other 10% doesn't take a LOT of regular, "perfect" practice. 90% of the effort, I'd say :) Books that stress that fact and build upon it by providing simple and clear guidance on how to practice correctly seem much more useful and effective to me.

[Jeep]

Way #1 is generally how it is taught during initial training in order to get to #2. Things are dependent on where folks stop the training. The reason Way #1 is an initial training thing is that it is slow, and by the time the shooter feels the reset, they have had more than enough time to find the sights. I find way #2 in your description to be the goal for total control of every shot. We try to have folks weened off of way #1 as soon as they are capable. Distance to target and complexity of shot may dictate what comes sooner, re aligned sights or the trigger reset and staged to break, but the process is essentially the same.

Again, people shooting in other kinds of venues don't need that level of control and are looking for different performance gains. I find it different rather than profoundly bad.

You know, the thread drift to trigger control has raised some extremely good issues that I never considered enough--if at all.

We love your photos of great Smith's and Colt's in the revolver forum, but please occasionally come back here. This is an excellent thread.

[john c]

The best way I can interpret it...

Way #1: Break shot. Gun recoils. Hold trigger to the rear. Acquire second sight picture. Let trigger start to reset. When you feel the click, press next shot.
Way #2: Break shot. Gun recoils. Let trigger reset and prep trigger for next shot. Acquire second sight picture. When sight picture is adequate, press next shot.

The difference between the two is that in the first one, your cue to break the shot is actually the tactile sensation from your trigger finger rather than the visual confirmation that your sights are on target or not.

Your sight picture should always be the driver for deciding when to break a shot.

Pure gold. Thank you.

[john c]

Way #1 is generally how it is taught during initial training in order to get to #2. Things are dependent on where folks stop the training. The reason Way #1 is an initial training thing is that it is slow, and by the time the shooter feels the reset, they have had more than enough time to find the sights. I find way #2 in your description to be the goal for total control of every shot. We try to have folks weened off of way #1 as soon as they are capable. Distance to target and complexity of shot may dictate what comes sooner, re aligned sights or the trigger reset and staged to break, but the process is essentially the same.

Again, people shooting in other kinds of venues don't need that level of control and are looking for different performance gains. I find it different rather than profoundly bad.

Thank you. Analysis like this is why this forum is so great.

[Dagga Boy]

The problem is that way #1 creates a training scar. I have observed at a very limited level many people slowly reset and then when they hear the click of the Glock, do a quick trigger jerk. I used to do it myself, because I was trained that way. Why not just teach recovering the trigger during recoil? The way I go by is that it is ok to go fully off the pressure wall as long as it is prepped before the next shot is made.

I find it to be a process, just like teaching draw stroke in pieces. The problem is two fold. Students learn the initial part and never progress their training, and instructors who don't advance enough themselves to teach past the initial stages of learning. We have all seen the student with a horrible draw stroke with all sorts of extraneous movement.....not a debate between draw strokes that are all efficient but different, but just flat out crappy. That is what happens when it is not taught properly in pieces. Then you have people with very slow, but correct draws...(you can almost see them counting) . They learned properly, but have just not worked past having to do each part in order.

I ll try to do an analogy. When I first learned to fly a helicopter, it was very difficult as you have to do multiple things at the same time with both hands and both feet. When something was going wrong (which in a helicopter is most of the time), you need to do multiple things to correct it. In the early stages you fix the problem in order. You move the stick, then pull the collective, then apply pressure to one of the pedals. As time goes on, you are doing everything at the same time. A good instructor can get you to be able to hover in about the equivalent of a one day class in terms of hours. You can stop there and say "I can hover a helicopter" (you also have the skill at that point to fly straight and level). With that said, you will not be able to land or take off until you can do all of the controls together and rapidly transition. Many folks and instructors cannot get past the hover.....or for most of the population, watching from the airport fence. It will take continual work and practice to really be a pilot, a ton of experience and hours to do auto rotations (about the scariest stuff ever when the instructor shuts the power off in flight and dives for the ground), and tons more work with multiple SME's to be able to teach auto rotations, flying on NVG's, pure instrument flying, etc. It very much mimics what we do.

[taadski]

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo324/taadski/Mobile%20Uploads/FullSizeRender_zpsakooe9ri.jpg

[GJM]

It is a lot better to crash in a Bell than a spitball (Eurocopter).

[Dagga Boy]

As GJM have found, the helicopter/shooting stuff is great for making points on neutral ground. Like aviation, we tend to learn a ton from people crashing. Folks who study why crashes happen tend to be far better off than those who think they are so good it will never happen to them. Even the best pilots can fall victim to things breaking or things hitting them, and preparation for the worst case goes a long way.

[taadski]

It is a lot better to crash in a Bell than a spitball (Eurocopter).

Yep. Lucky day. We were very fortunate indeed.


Darryl, I didn't realize you were a pilot.

[Dagga Boy]

Yep. Lucky day. We were very fortunate indeed.


Darryl, I didn't realize you were a pilot.

I am not. As a full time TFO for four years, it was critical that we could both land and fly our "office" if the pilot was ever shot or medically disabled. My first pilot was our instructor pilot, so I spent a ton of time flying with him and he liked being able to train me. It paid off when we had a runaway trim (stick is mechanically driving itself to one side..GJM will have a better technical description). I flew the ship back to the airport and set up the approach which was tiring because you are in a physical fight to overpower the helicopter to maintain control. It allowed the pilot to save his strength to fight the thing in for the much more complex landing itself. He would often just say that he was down, and I would immediately have to take over the ship, get landing clearance at a busy International Airport, and get the ship safely on the ground in front of the fire station, and shut it down with both a standard shut down and an emergency shut down. A lot like the tactics stuff on the ground, constant training for emergencies was critical. Working nights, I would usually fly the last flight when it was slow on the police side of the helicopter. I was usually flying at least thirty minutes to an hour a day. So.....not a pilot, but likely had more actual flying hours than many recreational helicopter pilots. The MD-500 was a really fun ship to both learn to fly and to fly in. Sort of the sports cars of the helicopter world.

[SGT_Calle]

Don't sell yourself short. You need to follow that up with Army Bandsman Fitness, Breaking Band Training: How Regular Guys Can Become Army Bandsmen, 100 Deadly Skills: The Bandsman's Guide to Eluding Pursuers, Evading Capture, and Surviving Any Dangerous Situation, and Bandsman Self Discipline. If you ever run out of SEAL books to knock off, which is highly unlikely, you can get a ghostwriter and do novels about an Army Bandsman and his elite band saving the world.

Talk about a niche market, I could be king!



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[johnson]

g
One of my best friends was a SEAL and he says creative writing was the hardest part of BUDS. ;)







This is a joke, take it as well as my bud does.
:)

http://www.duffelblog.com/2014/05/us-navy-seal-training-writing-course/

[taadski]

I am not. As a full time TFO for four years, it was critical that we could both land and fly our "office" if the pilot was ever shot or medically disabled. My first pilot was our instructor pilot, so I spent a ton of time flying with him and he liked being able to train me. It paid off when we had a runaway trim (stick is mechanically driving itself to one side..GJM will have a better technical description). I flew the ship back to the airport and set up the approach which was tiring because you are in a physical fight to overpower the helicopter to maintain control. It allowed the pilot to save his strength to fight the thing in for the much more complex landing itself. He would often just say that he was down, and I would immediately have to take over the ship, get landing clearance at a busy International Airport, and get the ship safely on the ground in front of the fire station, and shut it down with both a standard shut down and an emergency shut down. A lot like the tactics stuff on the ground, constant training for emergencies was critical. Working nights, I would usually fly the last flight when it was slow on the police side of the helicopter. I was usually flying at least thirty minutes to an hour a day. So.....not a pilot, but likely had more actual flying hours than many recreational helicopter pilots. The MD-500 was a really fun ship to both learn to fly and to fly in. Sort of the sports cars of the helicopter world.

Good stuff. Thanks for sharing.

[GJM]

Here is an actual crash of a 500 with a trim problem, and caught on film.


http://www.military.com/video/aircraft/helicopters/man-lifts-crashed-helo-to-save-vet/1042307532001/


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[MGW]

Huh. So you don't "ride the reset" at all. You let it reset itself and prep it in recoil so that as you're acquiring your next sight picture, you're ready to break your shot, should you need to.

Gamer. ;)

Tom Givens talked about this in the class I attended last weekend. It didn't use the term follow through that I remember though. That clicks with me.

[JCS]

This thread has turned really awesome and as the op I'm totally okay with it.


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[Dagga Boy]

Here is an actual crash of a 500 with a trim problem, and caught on film.


http://www.military.com/video/aircraft/helicopters/man-lifts-crashed-helo-to-save-vet/1042307532001/


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Flying a helicopter trying to do that is why I don't get too wrapped up in the high bore line recoil characteristics of HK's....;):p

[GJM]

Used to be, the pilot hung on until they landed, or ran out of strength and crashed. Now the factory teaches to get a passenger to help, or if there is none, to use your leg on the cyclic, and take over with your right arm only when landing.

[JDM]

Here is an actual crash of a 500 with a trim problem, and caught on film.


http://www.military.com/video/aircraft/helicopters/man-lifts-crashed-helo-to-save-vet/1042307532001/


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Serial no: 99

Jokes aside, that was horrifying.

[Dagga Boy]

Used to be, the pilot hung on until they landed, or ran out of strength and crashed. Now the factory teaches to get a passenger to help, or if there is none, to use your leg on the cyclic, and take over with your right arm only when landing.

I think we invented that solution and I want credit or my name on it;). I had just come out of our full-time bicycle unit and was still very heavy into mountain biking. That is exactly what I did, throw an oak tree thigh against the cyclic to take most of the work from my right arm. I was drained by the time I gave the control back to the pilot, and he did a stellar job nailing the landing.

[GJM]

I think we invented that solution and I want credit or my name on it;). I had just come out of our full-time bicycle unit and was still very heavy into mountain biking. That is exactly what I did, throw an oak tree thigh against the cyclic to take most of the work from my right arm. I was drained by the time I gave the control back to the pilot, and he did a stellar job nailing the landing.

Darryl, when I think of you on a bike, this is the image that comes to mind:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpskhwwocei.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpskhwwocei.jpeg.html)

[taadski]

Please, for the love of God, tell us you at least had changed out of your spandex. :p

[Dagga Boy]

Try to control yourselves....

[JDM]

I need a nap.

[GJM]

Try to control yourselves....


Charlie wants to know if you had any cameo appearances on "Pacific Blue?"

[BehindBlueI's]

Try to control yourselves....

That mustache is so awesome it deserves it's own unit number.

[Trooper224]

http://31.media.tumblr.com/b1482220867507b9eaee09d8449cb47e/tumblr_nakfd4vpv21sbxqyqo1_500.gif

[Dagga Boy]

That mustache is so awesome it deserves it's own unit number.

When that picture was taken we had just started in the unit that was only a year old. My mustache got so egregious that a female Captain actually cut it in the Chief's office as a condition of me getting my Corporal stripes a couple years later. My partner in that picture and I really revolutionized how bikes were used. We also got rid of those piece of crap bikes in short order. For GJM....notice it is a SoCal crappy alley and not at the beach...we actually scared the beach city bike cops in the POST Bicycle Instructor school because we were "hyper aggressive"......:cool:.

[Luke]

Trooper, I believe we need to see a larger photo of your avatar. Nyeti showed us his, it's only fair you show us yours :)

[Dagga Boy]

I can also pull the cool aviation dude look....

[JDM]

No AUG no care.

It really hurt me to accost my HK fetish like that, but, Nyeti.

[SeriousStudent]

No shotgun rack on the bike?

[Dagga Boy]

No AUG no care.

It really hurt me to accost my HK fetish like that, but, Nyeti.

It was a photo shoot for a Japanese gun magazine on the G36. The AUG was in my flight bag in the back of the ship. We actually got a call of a pursuit of a vehicle off a drive by shooting right after that photo was taken. The photographer was left sort of stunned when he was taking pictures and we just pulled power and took off. It sort of shocked the ground guys when we dropped in a low orbit at the termination and I was hanging out the side of the bird with the G36. The crooks were also impressed and surrendered without incident.


No shotgun rack on the bike?

Actually had a DOE 9mm Colt SMG in a back pack I used a lot on the bike. The gauge was a little big.

[Jeep]

I can also pull the cool aviation dude look....

You'd have gotten a lot more respect from the gang bangers if it had been belt fed and on a mount. Then they would have really known you were serious.

[Ronin_Jedi]

Trooper, I believe we need to see a larger photo of your avatar. Nyeti showed us his, it's only fair you show us yours :)
Now we're getting into the "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" situation? Man this thread has drifted!!! LOL

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[Trooper224]

Trooper, I believe we need to see a larger photo of your avatar. Nyeti showed us his, it's only fair you show us yours :)

Hmmm, I don't know. I don't want my big axe to make anyone insecure.

[Trooper224]

It was a photo shoot for a Japanese gun magazine on the G36.

Admit it, it's just an airsoft.

[Dagga Boy]

So, basically, you were Chris Costa before Chris Costa was cool. :)

Actually, Chris is simply my life like action figure. I was a big thing in Japan for a lot of years as I worked often with their top photographers on both the gun stuff and custom knives.


Admit it, it's just an airsoft.

Sort of funny....The gun was originally unloaded for the photo's on the flight line. Because of the clear magazines Ichiro Nagata asked me to use a loaded magazine. We had just come off a bunch of live fire shooting the day before, so I grabbed a magazine loaded with duty ammo. Made it a no brainer when the call came out of a neighboring agency coming into town chasing a car full of gang members who had just done a serious drive by. The Japanese gun magazines are like porn mags over there. Lots of things to look at that you can't have. They really like doing great pictures of real guns....then they make blow up, loops I mean replica air soft guns of what they can't have.

[Trooper224]

Sort of funny....The gun was originally unloaded for the photo's on the flight line. Because of the clear magazines Ichiro Nagata asked me to use a loaded magazine. We had just come off a bunch of live fire shooting the day before, so I grabbed a magazine loaded with duty ammo. Made it a no brainer when the call came out of a neighboring agency coming into town chasing a car full of gang members who had just done a serious drive by. The Japanese gun magazines are like porn mags over there. Lots of things to look at that you can't have. They really like doing great pictures of real guns....then they make blow up, loops I mean replica air soft guns of what they can't have.

Ichiro's photography was always the best thing about gun magazines. I've seen that Japanese airsoft crowd firsthand, Man, do they take that stuff seriously.

[Dagga Boy]

Ichiro's photography was always the best thing about gun magazines. I've seen that Japanese airsoft crowd firsthand, Man, do they take that stuff seriously.

I was blessed to have worked with Ichi a lot back in the film days. He is doing a lot of neat stuff with photo shop and digital, but the "art" and what made him great was what he could do before the new stuff. Hiro Soga is another favorite to work with. These guys are truely artists to an audience that is very finicky (the Japanese). For Americans, it's usually bathroom reading, in Japan, the magazines are done like coffee table books.

[Trooper224]

Trooper, I believe we need to see a larger photo of your avatar. Nyeti showed us his, it's only fair you show us yours :)

Since you asked, I'll contribute to the famous PF thread drift.
http://m0.i.pbase.com/g6/64/521964/2/84152300.0aDIat6z.jpg

This photo's about ten years old. I'm an amatuer historian, particularly medieval european history and the 11th century specifically. Not long ago a friend was in europe on a research trip and actually found me cited as a source is several books and academic journals. I'm still waiting on my kickbacks. :) I used to be huge into this stuff but I haven't dressed up in my fightin' clothes for a number of years. In my twenties I used to think it was great fun to run around the desert in this stuff, in hundred degree weather. Now I just think it's stupid. :) My back thinks wearing forty pounds of mail armor is pretty stupid too. I did make this hauberk and yes, the rings are riveted. You wanna talk about something that will test your patience.............

[Dagga Boy]

I approve of large axes, maces, swords and clubs. Makes my heart warm.

[redbone]

Back to the book. It's shit. I bought it when this thread started because it was $0.99 and Amazon keeps putting it in my 'suggestions' (i've bought a lot of other shooting books from Amazon.)

First off, He reminds us constantly that a Navy SEAL wrote the book. It’s the ‘Navy SEALs Four Rules of Gun Safety” and the “Seven Navy SEALs combat marksmanship fundamentals. He even publishes the Navy SEAL creed. "I do not advertise the nature of my work nor seek recognition for my actions." That's actually in the creed. Moving on.

He advocates shooting a pistol with the elbows locked straight.

He won’t say ‘weak-side’ or ‘weak hand’ (bog standard neuro-linguistic programming). Instead he says “reaction side.” I don’t know where he came up with “reaction” as a substitute for ‘weak’. Oh well. The problem is the refers to ‘reaction side’ or ‘reaction hand’ 20 times before page 100 when he finally gets around to explaining ‘it’s not your weak hand, cause you don’t want to program your mind into thinking one side is weak. It’s the reaction hand. " (I counted using the search feature on kindle). I can only imagine how confused some people were.

No photos of any of the rifle positions. Pages of not-well-written descriptions to describe prone, kneeling (supported), kneeling (unsupported) and standing, but not a single photo. Major oversight.

Too much emphasis on purchasing pistol that ‘fits’. He even says “Remember the saying ‘If the gloves don’t fit, you must acquit?’ When it comes to guns, ‘If the gun doesn’t fit, you’re not going to hit.’”

How did we ever get by before interchangeable backstraps to make sure pistols ‘fit’? I think if you are inside a standard deviation of hand sizes, the ‘fit’ isn’t a major concern. Guys with huge hands and girls with petite hands shoot Glocks just fine. Somebody forgot to tell them to pick out a pistol that ‘fits.’

He’s clearly writing for the beginner, but he mentions things off hand that a beginner might not know. “Hand should be up against the beaver-tail.” There’s no previous explanation of what the beaver tail is. I might have made the same mistake had I written a marksmanship book because I too would forget what a beginner doesn’t know. An editor would have helped here.

No pics of how to hold the carbine, yet he goes into detail about hand placement. Just take a picture.

I got 46% percent through the book before giving up. It’s shit.

I did use the search feature to confirm there’s nothing on how to clear malfunctions or even reload. I guess he was being literal when he titled the book. This book is written to help you shoot (but not reload or clear a malfunction, or even load the pistol/carbine in the first place.)

So it’s clear this book is for the person that takes his pistol once a year to the indoor range and wants to hit the ‘bullseye’ from 7 yards in slow fire with all 25 rounds. It does a shitty job even teaching you to do that.

[Paul Sharp]

Glad I saved the cash. During a class, reactionary hand as a term or descriptor was explained to me as the hand I'm going to use to react to any thing other than firing the gun. I think the reasoning was, if I think about it as a reaction to a slide lock, or malfunction, then I'll be more prone to move aggressively with that hand? I never really dug it that much. Maybe because of drum corps, or boxing, but it's always just been a left hand and right hand with a job to do.

[Mr Pink]

Back to the book. It's shit.


I got 46% percent through the book before giving up. It’s shit.So how do you really feel about the book? ;)

[JCS]

I'm about 2/3 through it and consider myself a pretty amateur shooter. I haven't picked up a whole lot from it. I have found some of the stuff on sight picture educational.


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[Ronin_Jedi]

Thanks for saving me some moolah as well.

Would be interested in a few quality pistol-oriented (not so much rifle or shotgun for now) books if anyone knows of a sticky or other list.

Or heck, DVDs/vids for that matter (faster way to learn).

Thanks in advance

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[Dagga Boy]

Well.....at least we had a decent conversation here.

I am nuts about terminology, and I got that from one of the best instructors in the country as a means of conveying exactly what you mean, not sending bad signals, and helping your students to better articulate why they did things during an inquiry. The whole "other strong hand", reactionary hand, whatever thing is a mix of "good" as I don't like "weak" hand for the same reasons as it sends a massive negative on the mindset thing....which you do not need if you are ever forced to use it. I simply prefer "Support" hand in that it does support role jobs....opening doors, supporting the primary/strong hand shooting, handles magazines, flashlights, moves people, grabs things, etc. it may also move from a support role to a primary if you ever loose the use of your primary. It is why all training we did with support hand was done with only the support hand.

Yes.....many folks from that world like letting everybody know, and it sells.

As far as locking elbows....I don't as it is asking to get stuff broken or guns taken away in my world, with that said, lots of very good sport and defensive shooters do advocate it.

Overall.....glad I participated in this thread against my better judgement, and glad I didn't get the book.

[JCS]

Fwiw I got the book for free. I would be interested in some legit pistol training books as well.


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[Chance]

My first exposure to training were the Magpul Dynamics videos, and I've since then been stuck referring to them as "support" hand and "fire control" hand.

Don't everyone feel sorry for me at once....

[TCinVA]

I tried shooting like a seal but I couldn't get the hang of balancing the ball on my nose.

[Paul Sharp]

Fine. I'll amend my joke. I have a Support Hand and an Other Support Hand. Or something...

I have a girlfriend hand, and her hot friend hand. That's as close as I can get to serious about the NLP stuff.

[TCinVA]

I joked with Todd some time ago that what he needed to do was get some wrist bands made up to reflect FAST scores. Sort of like belts in martial arts. And the top level would be red.

"Because red is the color of the blood of my enemies!"

And it should be worn on the non-dominant hand because "I am strong. I am skilled. I do not have a weak hand."

I can shoot a handgun with my left hand better than a lot of people can shoot one with both hands. But it's still my weak hand, as I am reminded of every time I try to do something as simple as brush my teeth or open a stuck jar with it.

[Dagga Boy]

I have a girlfriend hand, and her hot friend hand. That's as close as I can get to serious about the NLP stuff.

The support hand works the technology device, because free porn is a support hand job...;)

[45dotACP]

I've got a breaking hand, and a shattering hand. I didn't steal this line from Chuck Norris

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[BehindBlueI's]

I got it while it was free. I have read the first 30%. And by read I mean "realized it was basic safety information with a generous helping of puffery and repetition to pad the book length and quickly skimmed through it waiting for the book to start. I got to finding natural point of aim, and that's where I'm at for now.

[Ronin_Jedi]

@nyeti

Terminology: From my days in the computer industry, I can tell you this is much much worse in the IT industry. EVERY VENDOR wants to be seen as creating something new, original, and unique.

The vast majority are recycled ideas wearing new clothes, maybe with something new tacked on, but usually not.

"Network computers" - where the apps all reside on a computer somewhere on the Internet and not on your small and underpowered personal computer (really just a terminal) is but one example.


ETA: I prefer dominant/non-dominant hand
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[Hambo]

I NLP the shit out of myself.

Thanks for sharing that.

[Dagga Boy]

[/U]


ETA: I prefer dominant/non-dominant hand
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So, you are into the whole BDSM thing.....whatever works for you, but wouldn't that make one the submissive hand?

[RJ]

Thanks for sharing that.

Wasn't following the conversation, so I had to look this up.

Geez, learn something new here every day. Is this what ya'll talking about?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming

"... NLP has since been overwhelmingly discredited scientifically,[1][2] but continues to be marketed by some hypnotherapists and by some companies that organize seminars and workshops on management training for businesses."

[Hambo]

Wasn't following the conversation, so I had to look this up.

Geez, learn something new here every day. Is this what ya'll talking about?


I have no idea what he was talking about, but it sounded personal.

[EM_]

Thanks for saving me some moolah as well.

Would be interested in a few quality pistol-oriented (not so much rifle or shotgun for now) books if anyone knows of a sticky or other list.

Or heck, DVDs/vids for that matter (faster way to learn).

Thanks in advance

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The Art of Modern Gunfighting by Scott Reitz
http://internationaltactical.com/book1.html

Fighting Smarter by Tom Givens
http://rangemaster.com/fighting-smarter/

TAPS
https://www.amazon.com/T-P-S-Tactical-Application-Practical/dp/1440109591

Many other excellent books, depending on what you want to do, but these three are a good start.

[Dagga Boy]

The Art of Modern Gunfighting by Scott Reitz
http://internationaltactical.com/book1.html

Fighting Smarter by Tom Givens
http://rangemaster.com/fighting-smarter/

TAPS
https://www.amazon.com/T-P-S-Tactical-Application-Practical/dp/1440109591

Many other excellent books, depending on what you want to do, but these three are a good start.

I fully endorse this message.

[NickA]

But it's still my weak hand, as I am reminded of every time I try to do something as simple as brush my teeth or open a stuck jar with it.

Same, except for driving. Had to drive "other reaction support hand only" for a while due to a shoulder injury and holy shit, it's a miracle no one was killed. It's disturbing to see your "smart hand" be so dumb.


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[Tamara]

"No one ever got to Carnegie Hall simply by changing his name. (http://pistol-training.com/archives/5368)" One of my favorite Todd-isms.

[Ronin_Jedi]

The Art of Modern Gunfighting by Scott Reitz......Many other excellent books, depending on what you want to do, but these three are a good start.

Thanks for this!

Best

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[Ronin_Jedi]

Wasn't following the conversation, so I had to look this up.

Geez, learn something new here every day. Is this what ya'll talking about?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming

"... NLP has since been overwhelmingly discredited scientifically,[1][2] but continues to be marketed by some hypnotherapists and by some companies that organize seminars and workshops on management training for businesses."
Not totally.

If you tell yourself often enough that you like [fill in here] or don't like [fill in here], you will begin believing those thoughts all the time. Same if the news (family or friends) always bad-mouthing a certain group of people or political party or whatever. Your subconscious mind begins to think that way all the time.

Think of someone you know (or yourself) who is always a "downer", in a bad mood and blaming others. They've taught themselves this, maybe with the aid of others, but really themselves. Not everyone is like this, of course, many are like Teflon, their anger/concerns/whatever just sloughs off of them. Others dwell on it all over and over and over again.

NLP, like behavioral psychology, is about reprogramming the brain via the words and internal imagery you used daily.

Some people understand and "get it", others think its only Mumbo-Jumbo. Same with studying implications of diverse cultures in my International Management and Global Biz courses.

Best

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[BehindBlueI's]

I prefer puppet hand/no puppet hand.

https://rubberlotus.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/ventriloquistvomit.jpg

[john c]

. I was a big thing in Japan for a lot of years as I worked often with their top photographers on both the gun stuff and custom knives.

The Japanese gun magazines are like porn mags over there. Lots of things to look at that you can't have. They really like doing great pictures of real guns....then they make blow up, loops I mean replica air soft guns of what they can't have.

So, if I understand this correctly, in addition to being an SME and over all badass, you starred in Japanese porn mags!?!

Awesome. Simply awesome. [emoji2]


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[Dagga Boy]

So, if I understand this correctly, in addition to being an SME and over all badass, you starred in Japanese porn mags!?!

Awesome. Simply awesome. [emoji2]


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As twisted as the Japanese porn stuff is, I don't think they are even ready for the Bear Jew fetish yet.

[Chance]

As twisted as the Japanese porn stuff is, I don't think they are even ready for the Bear Jew fetish yet.

Thanks for that mental image.