I can (and did) pull trigger while gun is in Safariland ALS...WTF

[Steaz]

So I just received a "Safariland Glock 19, 23 with ITI M3, TLR-1, Insight XTI Procyon 6378 ALS Concealment Paddle Holster (STX Black Finish)"

This one:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00422FBL0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


And I noticed massive gaps in the holster at the back of the trigger guard. After double checking empty gun I holstered it securely, stuck my index finger in there, and CLICK, dry fired. It seems unlikely to happen, but I'm sure it certainly could because of Mr Murphy and his law.

Has anybody else noticed this or has there ever been a real world issue?

I have, and have had, a LOT of holsters, and I have not been able to do this with any of the others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64LWlXWcqPQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64LWlXWcqPQ

[Gray222]

This happens with certain holsters sometimes due to pieces of clothing getting in there.

We had a guy discharge his holstered pistol when he put on his jacket and the buckle strap worked its way in...

[Default.mp3]

Safariland holsters with provisions for WMLs have been known to have this gap for some models. Happened here: http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013/09/02/lodi-police-officer-shot-when-child-pulled-trigger-on-his-gun-at-reading-event/

[Steaz]

Safariland holsters with provisions for WMLs have been known to have this gap for some models. Happened here: http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013/09/02/lodi-police-officer-shot-when-child-pulled-trigger-on-his-gun-at-reading-event/

Well shit, I remember reading about that at the time.

Back to Amazon it goes. Geez.

[RJ]

Wow! Not good.

Cute cat though. :)

[PearTree]

So I just received a "Safariland Glock 19, 23 with ITI M3, TLR-1, Insight XTI Procyon 6378 ALS Concealment Paddle Holster (STX Black Finish)"

This one:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00422FBL0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


And I noticed massive gaps in the holster at the back of the trigger guard. After double checking empty gun I holstered it securely, stuck my index finger in there, and CLICK, dry fired. It seems unlikely to happen, but I'm sure it certainly could because of Mr Murphy and his law.

Has anybody else noticed this or has there ever been a real world issue?

I have, and have had, a LOT of holsters, and I have not been able to do this with any of the others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64LWlXWcqPQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64LWlXWcqPQ
With my duty holster (safariland ALS)for a glock 22 with a tlr-1hl, I can easily pull the trigger in the same manner you did in your video. The gap where the trigger guard sits is very wide on the holster.

[hufnagel]

is this a WML variant only issue? I'm trying to remember but I don't think my ALS's for my P30's (I have both left and right handed holsters) have that kind of gap or that kind of exposure of the trigger guard. I'll check tomorrow sometime though.

[Steaz]

is this a WML variant only issue? I'm trying to remember but I don't think my ALS's for my P30's (I have both left and right handed holsters) have that kind of gap or that kind of exposure of the trigger guard. I'll check tomorrow sometime though.




I have two other ALS holsters and and have owned a third (all different firearm models) as well as an ALS/SLS level 3 duty style, and this is the only one with the problem...it is also the only one designed for a WML

[Chance]

Other holsters have this problem as well (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?154-Who-carries-a-Weapon-mounted-light&p=1512&viewfull=1#post1512).

[Default.mp3]

My 6004 for the P30L with Insight M6X/M3X exhibits this issue, too, both in SA and in DA. Manual safety FTW.

[Steaz]

So what's the best solution for carrying a pistol with a WLM yet not exposing the trigger?

I have a Theis IWB for a G19 with XC1, and if I ever get a FUNCTIONAL XC1 back from Surefire (still waiting...) I can carry that, but what about a wider (and reliable) light like a TLR-1? What's the solution for a holster that is wide enough there to get the WML through yet no expose the trigger? Or is this a pick your poison thing??

[Cincinnatus]

So what's the best solution for carrying a pistol with a WLM yet not exposing the trigger?

I have a Theis IWB for a G19 with XC1, and if I ever get a FUNCTIONAL XC1 back from Surefire (still waiting...) I can carry that, but what about a wider (and reliable) light like a TLR-1? What's the solution for a holster that is wide enough there to get the WML through yet no expose the trigger? Or is this a pick your poison thing??
A Raven Phantom seems to have some gap, but not enough to get a finger into for most adults... Of course, a gun with a safety or a long trigger pull (think LEM) would reduce this risk, whereas striker fired weapons with short trigger pulls... You get the picture.

[Steaz]

Surely I can carry a gun with a TLR-1 or similar and not have a trigger that can be pulled (by a finger) while the gun is holstered...right?

[Chuck Haggard]

Surely I can carry a gun with a TLR-1 or similar and not have a trigger that can be pulled (by a finger) while the gun is holstered...right?

No, you can not, because there has to be sufficient clearance for the light to leave the holster.

This issue is not the holster, it's the lights being designed without any thought to the whole system of light, gun and holster working together.

[Steaz]

No, you can not, because there has to be sufficient clearance for the light to leave the holster.

This issue is not the holster, it's the lights being designed without any thought to the whole system of light, gun and holster working together.

Well, damn.

For a TLR-1 on a G19 and/or VP9, concealed (being liberal with the cover garments), what is likely to have the best coverage?

An IWB where that area is at least somewhat protected by the belt perhaps?

[HCM]

The newer 7TS versions of the ALS have less of a gap but as Chuck noted is not possible to eliminate it entirely due to the design of e lights.

[Default.mp3]

Surely I can carry a gun with a TLR-1 or similar and not have a trigger that can be pulled (by a finger) while the gun is holstered...right?Get an XC1, that form factor allows for the holster to completely cover the trigger for something like a Glock 19.

Oh wait...

[hufnagel]

No, you can not, because there has to be sufficient clearance for the light to leave the holster.

This issue is not the holster, it's the lights being designed without any thought to the whole system of light, gun and holster working together.

I see a potential market for WML's that are the same with as the weapons they're being mounted to. Of course this would require holster makers to get on board as well to make it all work.

[TAZ]

I have a VP9 with an APL that doesn't gap as much as the SF or Streamlight offerings. The narrower the light the less gap. I do carry IWB so getting a finger in would take a bit of work.

[TheNewbie]

I carry the P-07 in an ALS 6360 without a light, and there is basically no gap. However with the holster hood in the upright position, the hammer is prevented from coming back, preventing the gun from discharge, even if the trigger were pulled.

[Rex G]

I tried this, and could touch, but not pull, the trigger with my index finger. My middle finger could not even reach the trigger. My quite thin pinkie was able to get onto the trigger face, and dry-fire my G19, but it was painful to reach far enough to do so. I must emphasize that I really do have skinny pinkies, and it was not easy to reach the trigger. In the real world, I am not going to sit still while someone tries to fire my holstered weapon. If I am unconscious, or incapacitated, an opponent would probably find it quicker to simply figure out how to defeat the retention devices.

If the context is a child firing the holstered weapon, while the rig is unattended, well, again, I would be more concerned about the child defeating the retention devices.

I still believe the ALS+SLS Safariland holster is a very good system, far better than the SSIII/070, which I loathed, as it tended to compromise one's ability to quickly, consistently, and expediently attain a proper firing grip.

[Steaz]

I tried this, and could touch, but not pull, the trigger with my index finger. My middle finger could not even reach the trigger. My quite thin pinkie was able to get onto the trigger face, and dry-fire my G19, but it was painful to reach far enough to do so. I must emphasize that I really do have skinny pinkies, and it was not easy to reach the trigger. In the real world, I am not going to sit still while someone tries to fire my holstered weapon. If I am unconscious, or incapacitated, an opponent would probably find it quicker to simply figure out how to defeat the retention devices.

If the context is a child firing the holstered weapon, while the rig is unattended, well, again, I would be more concerned about the child defeating the retention devices.

I still believe the ALS+SLS Safariland holster is a very good system, far better than the SSIII/070, which I loathed, as it tended to compromise one's ability to quickly, consistently, and expediently attain a proper firing grip.


As the video probably illustrates, it was not difficult at all for me.

What was the exact holster model and what light?

I like the ALS + SLS and have one such holster for a G19, but this was intended to be a sweatshirt/jacket concealment holster more than anything else (some range use and maybe incidental open carry) and I don't know of a mid/high ride ALS/SLS with WML compatibility that could pull the concealment part off, really


I ended up deciding to keep the holster since it appears that's just the the way it is with a holster that fits a light that size. I don't think I"ll use it as much as I originally intended but since there are no obviously superior options this will be 'it'

[Steaz]

Progress: Today I received a Theis IWB hoslter for an HK VP9 with attached TLR-1 (HL) and it is significantly more difficult to pull the trigger while holstered.

The holster definitely has less gap at the rear of the trigger guard and the paddle mag release also seems to help. Seriously much more difficult to get to the front face of the trigger. This I like.

[saints75]

Old news. Most light barring holsters have some type of gap like that. Can a finger get in there? Yes. How often does a finger get in there? I haven't heard of it. 1. don't let anyone get that close to you. 2. If you are that worried, don't carry a light on your gun.

[Steaz]

Old news. Most light barring holsters have some type of gap like that. Can a finger get in there? Yes. How often does a finger get in there? I haven't heard of it. 1. don't let anyone get that close to you. 2. If you are that worried, don't carry a light on your gun.

If you haven't heard of it you haven't read this thread.

Don't let anyone get that close to you? Seriously, how do you live life or exist outside of your own home literally never letting anybody get close to you? In the real world for normal folks like myself that is simply impossible. I mean, if you can simply never let anybody get close to you, why even buy a holster with retention devices in the first place? Not that the two are necessarily related as a lot of things could accidentally end up in there if there is that much room, but really...we/I can't just decide to never let anybody be close to us.


Other holsters have this problem as well (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?154-Who-carries-a-Weapon-mounted-light&p=1512&viewfull=1#post1512).


Safariland holsters with provisions for WMLs have been known to have this gap for some models. Happened here: http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013/09/02/lodi-police-officer-shot-when-child-pulled-trigger-on-his-gun-at-reading-event/

Third post of the thread ^ links to a police officer having his pistol fired by a child while at a reading event. In the holster. Because of this.

[runcible]

It's a geometry problem: trigger-guards are generally 1/2"-5/8" wide, and 2-BA123 lights are generally 1-1/2" wide. The problem can be mitigated some by running as tight a channel as possible, and extending it as far up the holster as able; but eventually, running material higher will be in conflict with asserting a full firing grip from the get-go.

I suspect that one could reduce it a bit further with some artful forming, but it'd require a holster design that is less mutually-reinforcing and that can flex open on demand a bit more; but that brings its own problems, which include eventual repetitive-motion related cracking, not being viable for duty-type holster designs and kydex thicknesses, and adding an additional resistance to the draw-stroke.

[Steaz]

Yeah...apparently what we really need is for LED technology (and the circuitry and possibly batteries) to continue to improve until they reach the point that nobody really wants or needs a light wider than the dust cover/trigger guard...XC1 size basically.

[pr1042]

7390 duty holster w/ TLR1-HL

I can get my pinky finger in there at the right angle but not as easy as some of the 6000 series that I've seen

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