S&W 59 Series Generations?

[john c]

From a pure shooting perspective, what are the pros and cons of the different generations of the S&W model 59? A friend with a 5906 wants to get a second pistol, and at my suggestion looked on Gunbroker. He saw a bunch of 1st and 2nd gens on Gunbroker for less than 3rd gen pistols. For pure shooting enjoyment, are the older pistols better or worse than newer ones? I'm wondering if cost cutting over the years affected the performance of the pistols.

[Handy]

I've heard, but couldn't say from personal experience, that the first gen pistols weren't very good. The second gen (3 digit) were better, and the 4 digit were both more refined but also simplified in construction. I recall some folks saying that the gen 2 645 and 745 are their all time favorites.

Keep in mind that the some 3 digit guns are actually 3rd gen - like the 909 and 915. They were lower cost versions.

[JSGlock34]

Lucky Gunner had a pretty good article on the S&W autos, complete with this awesome chart. I had good experience with my 5903...3rd Generation introduced many improvements, such as Novak sights, to the lineup.

Lucky Gunner: Guide to Smith & Wesson Semi-Auto Pistols & Their Model Numbers (http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/guide-smith-wesson-semi-automatic-models/)

http://loungecdn.luckygunner.com/lounge/media/SW-semi-model-chart-1.jpg

[Chuck Haggard]

I'd stick to the 3rd gen guns. For several reasons, including reliability and shootability.

[Tamara]

I'd stick to the 3rd gen guns. For several reasons, including reliability and shootability.

^^This. The design didn't really reach what we'd consider modern levels of reliability and durability until the 3rd Gen guns.

[fatdog]

I have owned all three, the 59 I had back mid 70's was not reliable and the ergos were awful. The 459 I replaced it with mid 80's was far more reliable but still felt like trying to grip a 2x4. As cited, with gen 3 they got it right, especially the ergonomics. Also they came out with the 5903, alloy frame version, which is far superior to the too heavy 5906. Mine is so reliable it will feed and chamber once fired empties interspersed into the magazines.

5906 and 5946 DAO steel frames are really heavier than they needed to be. A friend who is a retired AL trooper keeps telling me his back problems are all because of toting the heavy beast as it was their issue gun for much of the late 80's and through the 90's and they did not allow personal firearms or alternatives.

[pdb]

S&W 3rd gens are obsolete and unfashionable and just bad ideas all the way around. You should stick to Glocks and VP9s and give me any leads on S&W 3rd gens you find so I can make sure nobody else gets disappointed by them.

[JTQ]

Lucky Gunner had a pretty good article on the S&W autos, complete with this awesome chart. I had good experience with my 5903...3rd Generation introduced many improvements, such as Novak sights, to the lineup.

Thanks for sharing that great chart.

My 4506 is from the first or second year of production, but I didn't realize S&W was still making their TDA guns as recently as 2010.

[Tamara]

5906 and 5946 DAO steel frames are really heavier than they needed to be. A friend who is a retired AL trooper keeps telling me his back problems are all because of toting the heavy beast as it was their issue gun for much of the late 80's and through the 90's and they did not allow personal firearms or alternatives.

Used a 4006 as a nightstand gun for a bit in the Nineties. That thing was such a brick...

[john c]

Thank you all for the info. I'll pass it along.

I'm surprised that the earlier generations sucked so much. I know several shooters with S&W model 52s (.38 SPL wadcutter target pistols) based on the model 39, and they're incredibly accurate. I figured the accuracy, with a barrel bushing, would have translated to different models on the line.

[fatdog]

I believe part of the M59's problems were magazine related. It was S&W's first venture into a double stack handgun mag, the springs were far weaker and the follower had more tilt than modern 59XX series mags. Speculation on my part I guess as I no longer have any of those mags to compare to the new versions. Same generation, I owned a nickel 39-2 that was pretty reliable and reasonably accurate when compared to the M59.

[ranger]

Just left the Acworth GA Cabela's - they were advertised used S&W 3rd Gen 5946 for sale (LEO tradeins?). Thought of the PF crowd.

[ReverendMeat]

Speaking of Cabela's, I saw a very clean looking 5946 that was in with the new guns, had a new gun tag, and I asked the employee if it was, in fact, new. Claimed it was, gun marked at $799.99

I thought S&W stopped making the 3rd gens years ago? Are they still doing limited runs, or what?

[LockedBreech]

Speaking of Cabela's, I saw a very clean looking 5946 that was in with the new guns, had a new gun tag, and I asked the employee if it was, in fact, new. Claimed it was, gun marked at $799.99

I thought S&W stopped making the 3rd gens years ago? Are they still doing limited runs, or what?

Flipping $800?!

I think Smith has done a few limited runs for police agencies but I seem to recall reading a month or two ago that they aren't even going to do that anymore.

On the somewhat off-topic subject of Smiths, the new M&P40 I picked up for $399 with nights is growing on me during the middle of a major perma-shift to 9mm for me and I'm not sure why. I just like it. I got a solid one.

[Tamara]

Thank you all for the info. I'll pass it along.

I'm surprised that the earlier generations sucked so much. I know several shooters with S&W model 52s (.38 SPL wadcutter target pistols) based on the model 39, and they're incredibly accurate. I figured the accuracy, with a barrel bushing, would have translated to different models on the line.

Accuracy wasn't the problem, really.

[Tamara]

Flipping $800?!

It's an all-metal* machined-from-forgings** pistol made in Massachusetts. Why would it be any cheaper than a P226 or Colt Government Model?


*Well, there's some plastic in the small parts now.
**With some MIM and stampings in the teeny parts.

[LockedBreech]

It's an all-metal machined pistol made in Massachusetts. Why would it be any cheaper than a P226 or Colt Government Model?

Fair point, I'm just used to the used market.

[john c]

Just left the Acworth GA Cabela's - they were advertised used S&W 3rd Gen 5946 for sale (LEO tradeins?). Thought of the PF crowd.

Ranger, how much are they asking for them?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[john c]

I believe part of the M59's problems were magazine related. It was S&W's first venture into a double stack handgun mag, the springs were far weaker and the follower had more tilt than modern 59XX series mags. Speculation on my part I guess as I no longer have any of those mags to compare to the new versions. Same generation, I owned a nickel 39-2 that was pretty reliable and reasonably accurate when compared to the M59.

It seems that the model 39s were better than the 59s. How is the accuracy of the model 39?

[fatdog]

How is the accuracy of the model 39?

I have never been much of a benchrest and calipers record keeper, and I sold the gun long ago, but my 39-2 was not great when I got it circa early 80's. Then on the advice of some bullseye shooters I had a gunsmith reverse crown the muzzle and I installed a heavier recoil spring. After that it would hold the black easily at 25 yards on an NRA 25 yard bullseye target. I think the fixed spherical bushing and new barrel in gen 3's helped and the muzzles were crowned correctly unlike some generations of the early guns, but I have no benchmark data.

I recall the sights on that gun were simply too low/short in their design and the sight picture was not something I would be happy with today. I always had trouble with the vertical alignment. They of course fixed that in Gen 3.

[Duelist]

1sr and 2nd gen should probably be thought of as shootable collectibles, whereas 3rd gens can be thought of as collectible shooters. This is, in my mind, due to the fact that you will be more likely to be able to get any needed parts for a 3rd gen. At present, new, factory 3rd gen parts are sporadically available. Additionally, a hard used 3rd gen can be a donor for parts for another, generally better external condition gun, because (as I understand it) the 3rd parts are more interchangeable. Plus, there are just more of them.

[MistWolf]

I had a pair of the first 4006 pistols to become available. All stainless steel and heavy, but they were sweet shooters. Had an S&W armorer work the triggers over. The DA pull smooth. SA was crisp. Both triggers cleaned up beautifully and never failed to ignite the primer. I loved everything about those pistols except the thumb safety and that whole DA/SA thing. I should have had them converted to DAO.

Before the 3rd gen series were introduced, there were a lot of horror stories going around about the earlier S&W Wonder Nines. I don't know how true they were.

I've long since given away that pair of 4006 pistols and as much as I liked them, I don't miss them. My PPQ renders them quite obsolete

[john c]

How does the 3rd gen DAO compare to HK LEM? I understand that they're functionally the same.

[MistWolf]

I don't know. I've never tried an HK LEM

[ReverendMeat]

How does the 3rd gen DAO compare to HK LEM? I understand that they're functionally the same.

3rd gen DAO is, as far as I know, DAO in the purest sense, as with a revolver. The action of pulling the trigger cocks the hammer--compressing the hammer spring--and releases the hammer.

With the HK LEM, cycling the slide (either initially to load the pistol, or during the recoil process) compresses the hammer spring, but the hammer itself returns to the forward position. Pulling the trigger cocks the hammer, but since the hammer spring is already compressed, you're only fighting the trigger return spring. This will give you the same distance of trigger movement as a true DAO but a much lighter pull, up until the mechanism starts to engage near the end of the trigger travel. It basically feels like an SAO with a lot of take-up.

[TheNewbie]

I thought s&w did something kind of like the LEM. Maybe in one of the .45s carried by the Idaho state police. Of course that may be a phantom Wikipedia article I read in my dreams.

Ok edit to add:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_Model_4506

Looks like maybe a 4586 variant.

[Chuck Haggard]

How does the 3rd gen DAO compare to HK LEM? I understand that they're functionally the same.

Sort of. The 3rd gen S&W DAO guns had a heavy but short pull, and set at an odd sort of half cock position with the hammer. Unlike some other DAO triggers, the S&W version was dead once the trigger was pulled, like a Glock, etc., and the slide had to be pulled back to reset the hammer/trigger.

Functionally these guns were like a revolver with a heavy smooth DA pull, but half of the travel. Jim Cirillo liked them, my girlfriend at the time, a K9 cop on my job, loved those guns due to the shorter trigger reach from the standard DA/SA guns, I never really liked them and shot the standard guns better.

Whatever you do, do NOT buy one of the models such as the 4026 that had the Sig style decocker.

[Handy]

Sort of. The 3rd gen S&W DAO guns had a heavy but short pull, and set at an odd sort of half cock position with the hammer. Unlike some other DAO triggers, the S&W version was dead once the trigger was pulled, like a Glock, etc., and the slide had to be pulled back to reset the hammer/trigger.

Functionally these guns were like a revolver with a heavy smooth DA pull, but half of the travel. Jim Cirillo liked them, my girlfriend at the time, a K9 cop on my job, loved those guns due to the shorter trigger reach from the standard DA/SA guns, I never really liked them and shot the standard guns better.

Whatever you do, do NOT buy one of the models such as the 4026 that had the Sig style decocker.

Sounds most like a Kahr, if anything, where you have to fully release the trigger for each shot, but you aren't actually stroking the hammer/striker the full distance when you do.

[Al T.]

Dana Safety Supply (Columbia SC, Spring Hill GA & Greensboro NC) should have some very nice trade-in 5903s (via Gwinnet County Detention Center) for 400 bucks or so. I know the Columbia store has some.

[pdb]

Dana Safety Supply (Columbia SC, Spring Hill GA & Greensboro NC) should have some very nice trade-in 5903s (via Gwinnet County Detention Center) for 400 bucks or so. I know the Columbia store has some.

Thanks for the heads up! The Greensboro store is on my way home, I'll have to check it out and get more of those junk guns off the streets.

[csheehy]

Speaking of Cabela's, I saw a very clean looking 5946 that was in with the new guns, had a new gun tag, and I asked the employee if it was, in fact, new. Claimed it was, gun marked at $799.99

I thought S&W stopped making the 3rd gens years ago? Are they still doing limited runs, or what?

The Atlantic Tactical store I patronize had a brand new 3953-style single stack 9mm (can't recall the model #), in an all black finish. $700 and some change. Brand new manufacture out of the Maine S&W factory per marking on said pistol.

Trigger pull was short but way heavier than on my 90's vintage 3953.

[Tamara]

Trigger pull was short but way heavier than on my 90's vintage 3953.

Likely a MA-spec gun.

[pdb]

Well crap. Everyone's out catching Pokemons and all I'm finding are TSWs.

9127

$475 OTD at Dana's in Greensboro with 3 mags. They had a 5903 for $400, but it had a square trigger guard and wasn't a TSW. It's the cop gun cliche, carried a lot, shot little. Thanks Gwinnet County Office of Corrections, and Gwinnet County taxpayers!

[LockedBreech]

Well crap. Everyone's out catching Pokemons and all I'm finding are TSWs.

9127

$475 OTD at Dana's in Greensboro with 3 mags. They had a 5903 for $400, but it had a square trigger guard and wasn't a TSW. It's the cop gun cliche, carried a lot, shot little. Thanks Gwinnet County Office of Corrections, and Gwinnet County taxpayers!

I don't suppose they have an online storefront?

[pdb]

I don't suppose they have an online storefront?

http://www.danasafetysupply.com/store-locator.html, the Greensboro location. They might ship!

[LockedBreech]

http://www.danasafetysupply.com/store-locator.html, the Greensboro location. They might ship!

Thanks!

[csheehy]

Likely a MA-spec gun.

You're right. That's what the difference is. And the fact it cost twice what I paid for the "vintage" one.

On the other hand, I feel a LOT safer knowing it's much harder for it to "just go off" and hurt someone...:rolleyes:

[Tamara]

Coworkers would occasionally mess up and order MA-compliant Shields at the last shop I worked at. Those were a harder sell than the one time someone messed up and ordered a bunch of CO/NJ-compliant M&P9 full-size mags.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Coworkers would occasionally mess up and order MA-compliant Shields at the last shop I worked at. Those were a harder sell than the one time someone messed up and ordered a bunch of CO/NJ-compliant M&P9 full-size mags.

I had wanted to try an MA-compliant trigger bar in my M&P9FS, but by the time I got the email that they were back in stock, I'd already traded the pistol off.

[Lost River]

I thought s&w did something kind of like the LEM. Maybe in one of the .45s carried by the Idaho state police. Of course that may be a phantom Wikipedia article I read in my dreams.

Ok edit to add:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_Model_4506

Looks like maybe a 4586 variant.

I carried one of those as a Trooper, and ISP regional lead firearms instructor. It was by far, the single worst handgun I have ever been issued. To summarize. Heavy, low capacity, horrid trigger. We had a terrible time trying to get our bottom 30-40% even qualified.

When the guy who was running the state's firearms program (coincidentally a huge PPC guy, and seemed to shoot nothing but S&W PERFORMANCE CENTER guns) retired, we immediately held a state conference of FIs. The state had been 20 years behind the times, primarily by one myopic man, and a couple of older, like minded cronies, who had not worked the streets for many years. The same crowd who insisted that the Mini-14 was the ULTIMATE combat rifle, and the AR- was not a suitable rifle for law officers.

On a side note, the senior FI guy DETESTED me, simply for the fact that I challenged his bullshit, in front of a whole group of people. One time in particular (that oddly enough just came up in conversation last week) he spouted off that the Remington 870 pump shotgun was faster (and this instructor) than any auto shotgun made. I called him on it. I stated that I had a shot timer, a Browning AUTO-5, and a $100. bill that said he was dead wrong.

He immediately shot me a shitty look and said that he did not have time to get into it today, and quickly changed the subject. It caused quite a stir up the food chain however, and I heard about it from a number of people senior to me. The Gestapo culture within the agency was such that NOBODY ever publicly voiced a different opinion on anything, when that opinion differed from a senior ranking person, especially one from the Crystal Palace.



More comments about the old PPC shooter/lead FI for the state. He was set in his ways, loved PPC, hated USPSA, that much is clear. We were never going to see eye to eye. That said, I did not necessarily care for him, nor him for me.

BUT I DID RESPECT HIM and his knowledge. A lot in fact.

He knew a hell of a lot of stuff, about a hell of a lot of stuff from his era. He simply had no interest in progressing past a certain point, for whatever reason. Even back then I wondered if I would end up like him, after using the same tools for 30 years, not wanting to look at newer technology or any other semi recent advancements.



Back on topic:

Training with Mr PPC and the 4586...




Believe it or not, we also wasted very valuable range time, shooting one handed, opposite hand on hip, like we just stepped on to a 1940s PPC course.

I am not kidding, we spent time and ammo standing, shooting like the officer in the center:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Handguns/PPCwtf_zpsx3cwbqp0.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Handguns/PPCwtf_zpsx3cwbqp0.jpg.html)

While I don't mind pretty much any kind of shooting, as an FI, TIME and AMMO are never things that are in abundance in most LE agencies, so it was frustrating to see low performance shooters continue to have their time wasted with such crap, when they still had not developed a solid understanding of the importance of trigger control, and having a consistent grip every single time.

Long story short, In incredibly short order, upon his retirement, the Minis and 4586s were boxed up, and the switch was made to Glock 45s and Colt M4s.

While minor, the only disagreement I had was that the M4s had a 3 shot burst feature and policy was to keep it cruiser ready and on burst. For those familiar with the internal working of such, an average trooper never knew when he pulled the trigger if he would get a single round fired or 3. My suggestion was always keep it on semi. I was overruled.

I simply violated policy and kept mine condition 3, on semi. I had no desire to fire any more than a single well placed round at a time. I had no use for burst,period.

Anyways....


Having acquired a 645, I find it a downright enjoyable, surprisingly accurate handgun, very much the opposite of my 4586 experiences.


I tested my sample using a very scientific test method. The results were "MOJR" AKA Minute of Jack Rabbit.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Handguns/P1010393_zpshyknnua0.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Handguns/P1010393_zpshyknnua0.jpg.html)


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/Handguns/P1010398_zpsxp462f41.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/Handguns/P1010398_zpsxp462f41.jpg.html)