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YVK
11-05-2011, 07:07 PM
Just finished shooting my first USPSA match; sitting here and collecting my thoughts. These are my random musings.

1) On account of me wanting to shoot a P30 out of appendix holster, I was told I was shooting a Limited minor. I was also told that shooting limited minor is disadvantageous from scoring standpoint, but I couldn't care less. In retrospect, I could've shot it in production from a strong side OWB. I can't think of a stage where a speed of draw advantage that I get from AIWB mattered much at all. I subscribe to training in the same way one carries daily, but I only had to do three shots out of holster and straight of target, and all were low-prob shots. I am thinking of canning appendix for next match. What do you guys do?

2) I was at the range at 8 am and I left match at 3 pm, and the match wasn't even over. I shot 127 rounds. Time spent per rounds fired, this was the least efficient practice/training I ever had. Typical?

3) A big selling point for me was shooting on the move. In general, that turned out to be a BS. Most of moving was just to run up close to the target so you could hose it from a near-contact distance. When I realized that, I started to engage targets from more realistic distances, but I realized it a bit late. In many cases, the only way to engage was near-contact. I also think that I made a mistake and I should've taken an opportunity to practice a true shooting on the move, rather than trying to get through the stage faster.

Overall, this was a mixed experience. It wouldve been more positive if it hadn't lasted that long, or we did more shooting. Perhaps, a first snowfall of year and freezing rain threw in a wrench. It was a good group of dudes, though. I did OK given my ongoing identity crisis with a P30. I did horrifically on a stage that required distance shots, and half of those were one-handed; food for thought. I am unlikely to join USPSA, but I will be shooting more matches.

JDM
11-05-2011, 07:16 PM
Your experience mirrors my own in local club level matches. I shoot about 1 every other month, and that's plenty.

It's nice to break up the normal training with a match, but the low volume of actual shooting is kind of annoying, and I'm not in any way interested in regular competition.

I shoot from my appendix gear because why not? If I ever actually need my gun, that's where it's gonna be. Why not get whatever practice I can with it there.

rsa-otc
11-05-2011, 07:25 PM
2) I was at the range at 8 am and I left match at 3 pm, and the match wasn't even over. I shot 127 rounds. Time spent per rounds fired, this was the least efficient practice/training I ever had. Typical?



Had the same observation after shooting one of my first IDPA club matches. Left the house at 7 am got home at 2pm. My score was around 50. So that was 7 hours spent for about 48 seconds of shooting.

I still go because I totally enjoy the company of my fellow competitors. IDPA if ran right has you moving while shooting at longer distances 7 to 10 yards. Also it makes you think more that your normal square range practice sessions.

MDS
11-05-2011, 07:29 PM
2) I was at the range at 8 am and I left match at 3 pm, and the match wasn't even over. I shot 127 rounds. Time spent per rounds fired, this was the least efficient practice/training I ever had. Typical?

This is what kills it for me. What with a couple of kids at home, it would take a giant kitchen pass for me to spend an entire day at a competition. I get so much more value out of approximately weekly range trips, than competing approximately monthly. It's a damn shame, because the competitions can be fun as well as educational.

<shrug>

One day, I'll be able to shoot in my back yard. Then my buddies can come over and we can do whatever kind of "competition" we want. =)

YVK
11-05-2011, 07:37 PM
Why not get whatever practice I can with it there.

I barely got to draw and shoot. 2/5 stages one needed to run before shooting, so we drew on a run, no pressout out of holster. 1/5 stages started with gun on a deck. 2/5 were draw, and one of those had you draw twice, so I drew and shot exactly three times. Incidentally, I missed at least one of three and possibly all three of those shots.




Also it makes you think more that your normal square range practice sessions.

It does, but there is a twist to it. I saw what other dudes were doing and started doing the same - figuring out a course of fire for a given stage. That resulted in at least half, if not 3/4, of my shots fired at distances and speeds that are neither relevant to me [unless I needed to shoot somebody point-blank] nor are a skill builder. Ernest Langdon says "Proximity negates skill". Next time I shoot a match, I'll be thinking in terms of what skill I want to practice, rather than how to get through this faster.

JodyH
11-05-2011, 08:16 PM
Competition isn't practice and it isn't training.

It sounds like you were taken out if your comfort zone and forced to do things you wouldn't normally do, that's a good thing.
So you had to draw on the run... and?
A perfect stance and press out probably wont be the preferred option if you're receiving incoming fire.
Contact distance hosing is a damn useful skill when the bad guy is at bad breath distance.

Use competition to identify weaknesses and have fun, not as practice or training.

I shoot limited/minor with my concealed aiwb 9mm p30 and have reached B-class while doing so.

Competition isn't practice and it isn't training.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

ToddG
11-05-2011, 08:31 PM
) On account of me wanting to shoot a P30 out of appendix holster, I was told I was shooting a Limited minor. I was also told that shooting limited minor is disadvantageous from scoring standpoint, but I couldn't care less.

Right here and now, decide whether you're there to get a good score or there to shoot/practice with your gear. If you are going to care about your score, you're going to have to do a lot of things different from your normal routine. Holster selection is just the beginning.


2) I was at the range at 8 am and I left match at 3 pm, and the match wasn't even over. I shot 127 rounds. Time spent per rounds fired, this was the least efficient practice/training I ever had. Typical?

Yes. It's not supposed to be a practice session. It's an opportunity for you to shoot someone else's problem under stress. It's more of a test than a practice session. As such, you cannot measure it by round count. Either you learned some things about your performance -- like the inability to make low-prob hits from the holster under stress -- or not.


3) A big selling point for me was shooting on the move. In general, that turned out to be a BS.

There were, as you said, plenty of opportunities to shoot on the move. They just weren't advantageous to a better score. So again, it's a matter of picking your priorities. If you want to place well, you walk the stage, plan the stage, and game the stage. If you want to get in as much SOM practice as possible, take as many shots SOM as you can without worrying about your score.

guymontag
11-05-2011, 09:11 PM
Just finished shooting my first USPSA match; sitting here and collecting my thoughts.

You aren't alone, I participated in my first match one week ago and had a similar experience. I expected to shoot in Production, but was advised to shoot Limited Minor by other competitors. I expended around seventy rounds in a matter of four hours and although I wouldn't describe it as efficient, it was worthwhile. I made observations not only of myself, but also the sport. I think now and into the near future, I will continue to participate in a recreational capacity, only testing and evaluating my performance. Your decision is yours.


It sounds like you were taken out if your comfort zone and forced to do things you wouldn't normally do, that's a good thing.

I completely agree, and it's a reason why I found value, and hope for continued participation.

YVK
11-05-2011, 09:24 PM
Right here and now, decide whether you're there to get a good score or there to shoot/practice with your gear.

Correct. Point I was making my gear choice didn't matter a bit - not for score, not for actually practicing with it other than using it as a carriage for a gun, at least, at courses of fire offered at this match.




Yes. It's not supposed to be a practice session...



True, although I didn't recognize it at the beginning.


If you want to get in as much SOM practice as possible, take as many shots SOM as you can without worrying about your score.

So, it is a practice session...Just messing, I realized, although a bit late, that I should've made it to be what wanted/needed it to be, within limits of stages etc. I could've gotten more SOM, I could've created more opportunities for low-probability shots under time stress, etc. Next time.

As far as being out of comfort, no, not really, perhaps because I was preoccupied with working that LEM trigger more than with anything else.

joshs
11-05-2011, 10:30 PM
Welcome to the gamer club. ;) If you aren't careful, you'll soon find yourself endlessly practicing set-ups and doing the IPSC one footed lean around barriers.

If you think of matches as training, you're probably going to be disappointed by how much you get to shoot. I use production gear because I like to try to win, and Production provides the best opportunity to be competitive with guns that people actually carry.

Did you have any Ms or GMs on your squad? I ask because the "run up close and shoot" is more common at the C-B level, but it is usually not the fastest way to shoot a stage. This is of course very stage design dependent. Some clubs don't have the space to make larger stages that give more opportunities to shoot on the move. But, there are often SOM opportunities that many shooters cannot take advantage of because they cannot get two As on a 7-15 yard target while moving at a pace that actually provides more benefit than a hard set-up.

YVK
11-05-2011, 11:13 PM
Did you have any Ms or GMs on your squad? I ask because the "run up close and shoot" is more common at the C-B level, but it is usually not the fastest way to shoot a stage. This is of course very stage design dependent. Some clubs don't have the space to make larger stages that give more opportunities to shoot on the move. But, there are often SOM opportunities that many shooters cannot take advantage of because they cannot get two As on a 7-15 yard target while moving at a pace that actually provides more benefit than a hard set-up.

Josh, I don't know ratings of anybody, but nobody looked like M/GM level shooters. There were very few attempts to cover the distance with a bullet speed rather than foot speed, mostly done by those with RDS. I saw a couple of guys who seemingly were contending for upper positions try to do it and completely miss their targets.

There were few other things that raised my eyebrows like reloads with dumping half-full mags on the ground so the next set of targets can be addressed with a full gun (is this what's referred to as IPSC reload?), or seemingly hosing steel targets since it looked like there was no penalty for miss on steel. I understand this is a part of a game and I am not criticizing, just an unusual experience, that's all.


P.S. Just received the results, finished 25 out of 36 shooters without shooting one last stage; probably wouldn't have mattered. Breakdown shows I am getting my hits which is awesome given my current priorities. Seems like I was slow; didn't feel that way, but I guess that's the value of these events.

P.P.S. Looks like there was at least one M-rated shooter in my squad who shot irons. Comparing his results to mine just for a reference, he got less hits but shot much-much faster.

P.P.P.S. Thanks, Todd, I have already figured the hit factor thingy.

fuse
11-06-2011, 01:03 AM
hehe, its like you just found out what they sell in the back room behind the curtains and sign that says "adults only" in the video rental store.

"but daddy, why are they missing?"




There were few other things that raised my eyebrows like reloads with dumping half-full mags on the ground so the next set of targets can be addressed with a full gun (is this what's referred to as IPSC reload?),


called a tactical reload. IPSC made it cool. much like IDPA made the reload with retention cool. the thinking essentially is that if you're not shooting, you might as well be reloading, and that shooting to slidelock is stupid, since you can just reload while in transit. also slidelock never comes at the end of a target array, and totally jacks up your flow, and thus costing you precious time. since you shot limited minor, there was no magazine capacity limits, but the dudes that shoot production are limited to 10 in the mag. they reload A LOT.




or seemingly hosing steel targets since it looked like there was no penalty for miss on steel. I understand this is a part of a game and I am not criticizing, just an unusual experience, that's all.


there are indeed no penalties for missing steel. make the steel fall down, however you can. preferably using your gun. it begins and ends with the timer.

ToddG
11-06-2011, 11:13 AM
Correct. Point I was making my gear choice didn't matter a bit - not for score, not for actually practicing with it other than using it as a carriage for a gun, at least, at courses of fire offered at this match.

If you shoot it from concealment -- also not a requirement and also something that will hurt your score -- then you're getting a chance to see how your draw works under stress in conditions that may be different than your normal practice routine. IDPA (which was almost 100% from concealment back in the day) taught folks a lot about cover garments, holster placement, etc.


So, it is a practice session...Just messing, I realized, although a bit late, that I should've made it to be what wanted/needed it to be, within limits of stages etc. I could've gotten more SOM, I could've created more opportunities for low-probability shots under time stress, etc. Next time.

Another thing you can do is find a group of like-minded folks, squad with them, and just compare scores against one another. You can even agree on side rules (e.g., "no stopping in the free fire zone" or "no going past the barricade at Box C") to make it a little more practical or just a little harder.


There were few other things that raised my eyebrows like reloads with dumping half-full mags on the ground so the next set of targets can be addressed with a full gun (is this what's referred to as IPSC reload?),

This is traditionally referred to as a speed reload and is a major part of USPSA/IPSC. Rather than running out of ammo in the middle of a target array, stage strategy involves reloading the gun whenever circumstances allow to make sure you have enough bullets for the next array.


or seemingly hosing steel targets since it looked like there was no penalty for miss on steel.

It's just like shooting bowling pins... number of rounds fired don't matter, getting all the targets on the ground as fast as possible matters.


What the hell is a hit factor;

IPSC scoring is like the formula for energy... it puts far more emphasis on speed than anything else. :cool:

PPGMD
11-06-2011, 12:01 PM
called a tactical reload. IPSC made it cool. much like IDPA made the reload with retention cool. the thinking essentially is that if you're not shooting, you might as well be reloading, and that shooting to slidelock is stupid, since you can just reload while in transit. also slidelock never comes at the end of a target array, and totally jacks up your flow, and thus costing you precious time. since you shot limited minor, there was no magazine capacity limits, but the dudes that shoot production are limited to 10 in the mag. they reload A LOT.

A couple of things, tactical reloads, and reload with retention are basically the same thing, just in a slightly different order.

The four types of reloads as I know them, may or may not match other peoples definition/names of reloads.
Tactical reload - draw fresh mag, bring up to gun, eject spent mag into hand, put fresh mag into mag well, and stow spent magazine

Reload with retention (RWR) - bring gun into reload position, position weak hand under gun, eject spent magazine into hand, stow spent magazine, put fresh magazine into gun

Speed reload - eject spent magazine onto ground, put fresh magazine into gun

Slide lock reload - same as speed reload except slide is locked back, at the end of reload you release the slide (however you need or want to including kicking the slide if you are so inclined)

Neither tactical reloads or RWRs are common at USPSA matches, they do speed reloads or if they failed kindergarten slide lock reloads. And honestly even at IDPA matches slide lock reloads are more common at the matches I've been to unless the course of fire dictates or forces a tactical reload/RWR on the shooter.

Completely unrelated to Fuse's post, but commenting on SOM vs scrabbling to position.

First shooting on the move is uncommon at IDPA, they might have one or two targets to shoot on the move every other stage, but that is it. For the most part IDPA shooting is shoot, move to another position shoot (almost always behind cover), repeat as necessary.

Based on talking to shooters at matches (I like to pick people's minds about their approach to stages) in USPSA there are two schools of thought, and based on my observation it mostly depends on the ability, or physicality of the shooter.

Group A: Scramble like a squirrel on meth to each shooting position, repeating until all targets are shot.

Group B: Shooting on the move as targets are available, rarely using static shooting position.

But though group A scrambles from shooting position to shooting position they will attempt to minimize the number of shooting positions (including making longer distance shots). And group B will also scramble if there is an area where there is zero targets available to shoot.

You mostly see the difference between the groups when you have a long deep stage, ie starting from the 25 yard line, going all the way to the berm, with targets obscured by "walls" on both sides of the bay as you go down it. Group A will scramble from shooting position to shooting position. While group b will walk the entire time engaging targets as they become available.

Both groups I am judging M/GM class shooters, not the lower lever shooters such as myself. Group A tends to be the more athletic shooters that can really sprint from shooting position to shooting position. Group B tends to be less athletic people, who thought they move slower overall find that it works best for them to constantly stay on the move.

Another thing hosing, hosing is more common by B-lower level M class USPSA shooters. Almost every M and GM class shooter I've seen as very few misses, they typically shooting 95+% of the points available on a stage. So IMO you can't reach the upper levels of USPSA by hosing your way through a stage. In IDPA the penalty is even greater, letting a -1 or a -3 stand is stupid, a follow up shot takes .2-.3 seconds depending on your skill (and you should be calling your shots and know if you missed the 0 zone), so you save .7-.8 seconds if you make up that shot. And often you have that spare bullet in the magazine since we have to hose the last round to do a slide lock reload instead of a tactical reload/RWR.

Anyways those are the observations of this gamer.

fuse
11-06-2011, 12:52 PM
Thanks for the correction, in my head I confused "emergency" (slide lock) reload with speed reload.

jetfire
11-06-2011, 01:35 PM
Overall, this was a mixed experience. It wouldve been more positive if it hadn't lasted that long, or we did more shooting. Perhaps, a first snowfall of year and freezing rain threw in a wrench.

This. I've shot in all kind of weather conditions, and nothing slows the pace of a match down like snow and rain. If there's any kind of precipitation, the time it takes to reset the stages in between each shooter increases significantly because people don't want to paste and it's harder to paste targets when it's raining/snowing.

I feel bad for shooters up here in the PNW whose first match exposure comes in the rain.

ETA: Hit factor is just a formula that works out to points per second. So if you have a stage that has 60 possible points and shoot it in 10 seconds with all alfas your hit factor would be 6.000. If someone shoots all charlies while scoring major PF in 6 seconds, they would have a hit factor of 8 and win the stage.

GJM
11-06-2011, 10:37 PM
Another thing you can do is find a group of like-minded folks, squad with them, and just compare scores against one another. You can even agree on side rules (e.g., "no stopping in the free fire zone" or "no going past the barricade at Box C") to make it a little more practical or just a little harder.
:

While different people will have different interests, I think Todd hit the nail on the head with this suggestion. Shooting with others has many benefits, but after a number of years of devoting a day each weekend to standing around with many shooters, shooting relatively few rounds, and watching many competition oriented behaviors that are contrary to the defensive use of a handgun, I decided the cost benefit didn't pencil for me. If a match was nearby and convenient, I would be happy to shoot it, but I want it to be the exception not the rule. Having like minded shooters, ideally better than you, seems the perfect situation for me. Whenever I read about Todd and the boys playing at the range, I think wouldn't it be neat to live nearby -- but then I open my eyes look out at Alaska or the mountain west. :)

Mid-post here, my cell rang and it was my wife telling me she had a mule deer buck down here in CO, and to bring our large packs, so after she quartered it, we could hike it out. When I got to the deer, she had it half cut up, and casually mentioned that there were fresh lion tracks in the area. Between her G19 and .338WM, I suspect she would have gotten the better of a lion, although as darkness fell, and we finished cutting by head lamp, we both had heads on a swivel!

nwhpfan
11-18-2011, 10:28 PM
Some things I've learned from competing in USPSA. The stages and match overall are as good as the person(s) that set them up. USPSA matches rely on volunteers that not only show up early to set up everything!!! they also shoot the match. You can volunteer to help make the matches better by talking to the match director. They generally do not turn away help.

USPSA is a game; and to me a very fun game. I love to play it. I'm there to win my division and my gear and technique reflects that. There are people there that use this time as practice. That's OK; everyone is welcome.

You get out of USPSA what you want.