Selecting an AR for home defense

[JCS]

Due to current events, political uncertainty and other factors, I have been heavily considering an ar for home defense.

My current training with an AR is little to none. I've shot probably 500 rounds in my life. My goal is to get a rifle and get training. Learn the platform well and the applications of the rifle for home defense. Until then a pistol will remain my hd weapon.

That said I am asking your guys and gals help on choosing an ar. My budget is $1500 before the optic.

I want a "battle ready" rifle. Something I can trust my life to. I really don't have any interest in building one for that reason. I'm looking at either buying a full rifle or upper and lower and slapping it together.

Right now my short list is:
Daniel Defense ddm4v11 maybe lw version?
BCM Reece 16" or 14.5"

I don't know what length is preferable or type of barrel (lw, govt, etc).

Any input from you all is great? I look forward to hearing your opinions!


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[Luke]

Colt, BCM, Daniel defense. All in your price and all considered good to go.

Edit: I own a DDM4V11LW am love it. Wish I would have bought a BCM. Because mainstream.

[SamuelBLong]

Pretty much anything BCM or DD is going to be solid right out of the box.

I'd tell you to stick with 14.5 - 16" LW profile hammer forged barrels. LW holds up just as well and you don't get as fatigued while training and getting reps in.
LW is also better if you're going to add the weight back at a later point with lights lasers and optics.

I generally prefer the 14.5" barrel as the best all around best length / do everything gun, but the disadvantage with the 14.5 barrel (being that as someone new to the gun), you may not know exactly what muzzle device you will ultimately want... And while it can be swapped at a later point, you're generally looking at a gunsmith taking your upper for a few days to swap stuff out... That's time where you're not going to have your rifle.

As far as rails - BCM vs DD's Slim Rail... I've used both, and both handle well. MLOK / Keymod... That's a whole other debate... But for most people it won't matter.

Get the best deal you can find, and spend the rest of the $$$ on a class and ammo.


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[PearTree]

Colt 6920 magpul edition, aimpoint pro or h2 (your choice), bfg vickers sling, ariska defense 300 light in their mount, and lots of mags and a case of ammo. The entire package will be under or right at $1500 and will be as reliable as any setup out there.

I suggest this to any person getting into ar's. Spend the extra saved money on training classes.

[coldcase1984]

No bad advice yet. First training you should get is an Appleseed Class on riflery.

I grabbed a 6920 Magpul in 2013 as soon as Wal-Mart got one back in stock. After yesterday, I'm getting it in my youngest son's mitts. He still lives with us and a lot of bad people/BLMs in our town know where we are. We're all doing a refresher day tomorrow at The Ranch.

[JCS]

I'm thinking about the Trijicon Mro or aimpoint pro for red dot.


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[texasaggie2005]

I'm thinking about the Trijicon Mro or aimpoint pro for red dot.


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I had an MRO for awhile and liked it.

[JCS]

Colt, BCM, Daniel defense. All in your price and all considered good to go.

Edit: I own a DDM4V11LW am love it. Wish I would have bought a BCM. Because mainstream.

Why BCM over Daniel Defense?


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[Luke]

I like the BCM rail (it's more round), I like there furniture, already has good charging handle and compensator. And like all the cool kids run BCM and since there is no real performance difference the obvious choice is to do what the cool kids are doing.

[JCS]

From what I've read, BCM sets the bar for bcg.

I really started considering their recce rifle after I heard Kyle defoor was behind it.


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[Luke]

I wouldn't put too much thought into big names endorsing products. Not to say it's not an excellent rifle.

[PearTree]

From what I've read, BCM sets the bar for bcg.

I really started considering their recce rifle after I heard Kyle defoor was behind it.


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Colt is the gold standard and the only company that uses the tdp to build rifles for civilians. Bcm does not manufacturer their bcg's, they are sourced from another company. Colt manufacturers their bcg's in house.

I'm not crapping on bcm, they make solid kit and one heck of a rifle and I know many who own and love them. But to your statement, bcm does not set the bar for bcg's, they follow the bar that was set long before they became a company.

[frozentundra]

Some other good options if you would rather have a mid-length hanguard and gas system are:

BCM 16 Mid-Length MOD 0 $1,128
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi- bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=MID-16-MOD0

Lighter weight and mid-length: $1,040ish total
BCM Blem Lower-add gunfighter stock option in menu- $345 http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LWR-BCM-BLEM
combined with
BCM 16" Mid Length LIGHT WEIGHT Upper Receiver Group- add BCM bolt carrier and gunfighter charging handle of choice in drop down menu-$657.95
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=BCM-URG-MID-16LW
combined with
magpul polymer handguard of choice-MOE, MOE M-LOK, or MOE SL - $35ish - you would have to order this separately.


Some other items I would consider are :
SOB B-sling- $26 http://www.sobmanswag.com/collections/slings/products/b-sling-with-mash-hook Very light weight and wonderful quick adjust, but no padding. Great value.
Troy folding or fixed rear sight $45ish to $90ish dollars- shop around for a sale

All you need after that is an appropriate light mount for handguard of choice, decent flashlight, and a big pile of magazines. And ammo and a red dot of course.


As I see it, the difference with BCM is that, for around $100 to $300(depending on where you shop) more than a standard 6920, you get a nice PNT coated Mil-Spec trigger, "Gunfighter" Charging handle of choice, "Gunfighter" stock, pistol grip, triggerguard, and "Gunfighter" muzzle device. This stuff may or may not matter to you. You also get a bit longer hand guard so you can grip the gun further out as is popular now days, and maybe a bit more room for mounting a light, which is maybe easier to do on magpul handguards.

I like lightweight, mid-length guns(and lightweight accessories) because I actually carry my rifle around in the wilderness quite a bit and I buy into the hocus pocus about it being softer shooting and optimised for 16" guns.

In all honesty I must admit that a big reason that I buy BCM products is because of the relationship Pat Rogers had with BCM owner Paul Buffoni and because Pat vouched for the products. Also, I live in Wisconsin and like to support what I feel to be a good "local" company, even though they are located on the other end of the State.

[Aray]

For your budget and as a first carbine, Colt 6920 or 6720, Mount N Slot light mount (it mounts to stock handguards) with a 300+ lumen light from Sure Fire, Streamlight, 4Sevens or a number of others. Sheriff of Bagdad or VCAS sling, Aimpoint PRO, ammo and a class from a reputable instructor. If you can't afford it all, drop the optic, irons work; training is far more important than any accessory.

I have no reason to recommend a mid length gas system to a non-competition shooter.

[Little Creek]

I have a DDM4V7lw. I replaced the MFR with a 15" DD Slim Rail. I love it. Right now, I would buy a DDM4V11 SLW with the 14.5 w/pinned DD flash hider. I also have a DD5V1 and a DDM4V11 w/ 18" S2W barrel. I think DD is top tier. I admit it, I am a DD fan boy. These guns all work for me.

[JCS]

Colt is the gold standard and the only company that uses the tdp to build rifles for civilians. Bcm does not manufacturer their bcg's, they are sourced from another company. Colt manufacturers their bcg's in house.

I'm not crapping on bcm, they make solid kit and one heck of a rifle and I know many who own and love them. But to your statement, bcm does not set the bar for bcg's, they follow the bar that was set long before they became a company.

Okay thank you. All my research has been on forums. It's hard to distinguish fanboy talk from unbiased talk. That's why I posted here.


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[JCS]

So school me on the pros and cons of a 16" vs pinned 14.5"? With my skill level am I going to even notice an accuracy difference?


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[rob_s]

As I've lamented in the past, the trend towards turning rifles into Barbie-dolls for SHTFantasy-obsessed suburban males has resulted in a limited number of complete guns available at normal retailers without getting into boutique guns like the various piston stupidity and blinged-up complete guns that may or may not fit your needs, and you have no way of knowing if they fit your needs or not because you don't actually know what you're going to do with the gun.

Buy a complete gun, a Colt 6920 (preferably a 6920 Magpul) being the best option, and Aimpoint PRO, and go take a class. Not a "gunfighting" class but a shooting class. Then re-assess your wants and needs.

[rob_s]

So school me on the pros and cons of a 16" vs pinned 14.5"? With my skill level am I going to even notice an accuracy difference?


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Don't buy a 14.5" pinned gun. Especially don't buy a 14.5" pinned gun as your first AR.

Zero practical benefit, and limits your ability to make changes later because:permanently-attached.

Yes, some choad will come along and point out that the muzzle device can be un-pinned, drilled out, cut away, etc. but that's still way more trouble than simply unscrewing the device on a 16" barrel. If you're unclear, changing out the handguard will, in almost all cases, require removing the front sight base, which requires removing the muzzle device.

[Default.mp3]

Joe Strohman at Strohman Enterprises is the go-to guy for Aimpoints if you're a first responder.

There's little reason to get a 14.5" gun over a 16" if it's going to be your only gun; the main advantage isn't accuracy or ballistic performance, especially in a home defense scenario, but simply maneuverability, and 1.5" is pretty little difference, especially once you've had training. On the other hand, a 16" you can, as previously noted, can easily change your muzzle device and handguard.

[Duelist]

Don't buy a 14.5" pinned gun. Especially don't buy a 14.5" pinned gun as your first AR.

Zero practical benefit, and limits your ability to make changes later because:permanently-attached.

Yes, some choad will come along and point out that the muzzle device can be un-pinned, drilled out, cut away, etc. but that's still way more trouble than simply unscrewing the device on a 16" barrel. If you're unclear, changing out the handguard will, in almost all cases, require removing the front sight base, which requires removing the muzzle device.

Completely agree. Both of my ARs are 16" for those reasons.

Haven't heard some called a "choad" since HS. That was ... a long time ago. LOL

[PearTree]

Okay thank you. All my research has been on forums. It's hard to distinguish fanboy talk from unbiased talk. That's why I posted here.


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I would follow rob s advice. Idk if you are a member of any other forums, but he has forgotten more knowledge on the AR platform than I know.

And whatever you decide to purchase, I would contact grant at gr tactical for any of your questions and for your purchase. He takes care of first responders and military, and his prices for all of the brands mentioned so far in this thread (bcm, dd, colt, aimpoint) are incredible.

[Default.mp3]

And whatever you decide to purchase, I would contact grant at gr tactical for any of your questions and for your purchase. He takes care of first responders and military, and his prices for all of the brands mentioned so far in this thread (bcm, dd, colt, aimpoint) are incredible.
https://media.giphy.com/media/i5JJP3rne092w/giphy.gif

[Little Creek]

Okay thank you. All my research has been on forums. It's hard to distinguish fanboy talk from unbiased talk. That's why I posted here.

There is no unbiased. There are only opinions. Some opinions are based on experience. Some are not. I have had Colt and I have a S&W15 Sport. Still have the Sport. Sold the Colt. They were both good carbines.


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[JCS]

I would follow rob s advice. Idk if you are a member of any other forums, but he has forgotten more knowledge on the AR platform than I know.

And whatever you decide to purchase, I would contact grant at gr tactical for any of your questions and for your purchase. He takes care of first responders and military, and his prices for all of the brands mentioned so far in this thread (bcm, dd, colt, aimpoint) are incredible.

Just checked out his site. Wow, his posted prices are great.


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[jlw]

Pay once; cry once.

[KeeFus]

I'm thinking about the Trijicon Mro or aimpoint pro for red dot.


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One of our guys had an MRO for about a week. It shit the bed so he got his money back. Stick with Aimpoint.

[JCS]

One of our guys had an MRO for about a week. It shit the bed so he got his money back. Stick with Aimpoint.

One of the main reasons I was leaning towards it is because I can get a first responder discount on one for around $400. With the links other members posted I'm hoping I can find a good deal on an aimpoint.


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[JCS]

Don't buy a 14.5" pinned gun. Especially don't buy a 14.5" pinned gun as your first AR.

Zero practical benefit, and limits your ability to make changes later because:permanently-attached.

Yes, some choad will come along and point out that the muzzle device can be un-pinned, drilled out, cut away, etc. but that's still way more trouble than simply unscrewing the device on a 16" barrel. If you're unclear, changing out the handguard will, in almost all cases, require removing the front sight base, which requires removing the muzzle device.

What are your thoughts on a lw barrel versus normal (I know that's not the right terminology forgive me)?


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[John Hearne]

Random thoughts:

If you're buying the gun with the free-float rail it will wear for it's life then there is not major drawback to a pinned 14.5" barrel. You need to understand that there isn't much functional difference between a 16" and 14.5" barrel. You get a lot going from a fixed stock 20" gun to a collapsible stocked 14.5" or 16" gun. The next major noticeable improvement comes at true SBR length, like 11.5". An 11.5" AR is a dream to deploy from a vehicle.

If you're buying an AR you'll never appreciate it's intrinsic advantages unless you can actually shoot a rifle. The best way to get good at shooting rifles without breaking the bank is to attend an Appleseed event. They're cheap and they will teach you the fundamentals that most folks lack these days.

[KeeFus]

One of the main reasons I was leaning towards it is because I can get a first responder discount on one for around $400. With the links other members posted I'm hoping I can find a good deal on an aimpoint.


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Aimpoints "deals" for LE/etc aren't that great...maybe 10%. I'd buy a PRO from Amazon and be done with it.

[DocGKR]

Despite ignorant comments by VP Biden, the AR15 carbine with a 16" barrel is likely the best home defense long gun currently available for the vast majority of US citizens.

A basic solid set-up would be a Colt 6720, a few 20-30 rd magazines, an Aimpoint RDS, a Surefire light of at least 500 lumens, and an adjustable 2 point sling like a BFG or VTAC. Get appropriate high quality initial training, as well as ongoing practice using generic ball ammo. Have a solid zero at one of the reasonable distances, be it 50, 100 or 200. Finally pick a good defensive load--ensure function and verify POA/POI.

[jlw]

One of the main reasons I was leaning towards it is because I can get a first responder discount on one for around $400. With the links other members posted I'm hoping I can find a good deal on an aimpoint.


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I've bought three Aimpoint PROs from Optics Planet. I paid in the $360-380 range for them. All three were bought during "Black Friday" sales or the week after Christmas.

[rob_s]

What are your thoughts on a lw barrel versus normal (I know that's not the right terminology forgive me)?


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I was a fan of, and using, using lightweight barrels before it was a fad, back when everyone else seemed to think it was stupid, and the Colt 6720 was just about the only option and it came with an A2 upper that I had to swap out for a flat-top. I still remain a huge fan, but the Colt 6720 is less common in retail stores and isn't available, to my knowledge, right out of the box with the Magpul furniture.

Unfortunately the combination of the carbine-length (~7") gas system and the stock furniture leaves a lot of room for improvement when employing modern shooting techniques. The only way to overcome this is (a) fiddle-fuck, meaning changing out the handguard after purchase or (b) buy a non-Colt with a midlength (~9") gas system, or (c) deal with the slightly stupid barrel profile of the 6920 and get a highly functional, reliable, and durable rifle right out of the gate.

[Wayne Dobbs]

One of our guys had an MRO for about a week. It shit the bed so he got his money back. Stick with Aimpoint.

Word. Fleas on the MRO: it IS magnified somewhat despite their BS tech sheet. It has an odd fisheye effect and the battery compartment is just begging to be broken (little spring fingers to retain the battery). Buy an Aimpoint PRO and save yourself the hassle.

[MVS]

Word. Fleas on the MRO: it IS magnified somewhat despite their BS tech sheet. It has an odd fisheye effect and the battery compartment is just begging to be broken (little spring fingers to retain the battery). Buy an Aimpoint PRO and save yourself the hassle.

Agreed on the MRO. Up till now I have had Aimpoint Micros and EOtechs. I recently bought a PRO. My only complaint with it is not much headroom. You have to turn it up to one click from full bright to make it useable outdoors. And yes, I did put fresh batteries in it.

[JCS]

Since we are on the topic of optics, should I get the aimpoint pro and be done with it or consider the t1 or t2?


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[rjohnson4405]

The only reason most users prefer a t1 or t2 is weight, the other features just aren't used by most shooters.

I think the micros would maybe make it a bit easier for my wife to run the gun without getting fatigued.

But, really these are pretty lightweight guns in general and if you keep it simple, light, red dot, and maybe a sling most people can use them effectively.

[Default.mp3]

Since we are on the topic of optics, should I get the aimpoint pro and be done with it or consider the t1 or t2?There's also the H-1 and H-2 to consider, each of which save you a bit compared to their T-series counterpart.

[PearTree]

Since we are on the topic of optics, should I get the aimpoint pro and be done with it or consider the t1 or t2?


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The weight difference between a pro and t1 is 4.8 ounces. Its really preference in my opinion. If weight is your main goal, go with the micro series. Cost wise, the pro is much cheaper. Like was mentioned earlier, look at the h1 or h2 as a cheaper alternative to the t1 or t2.

[JCS]

Im thinking it would be better to save the money and just get the aimpoint pro. Use the saved money for ammo and a light.


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[JCS]

I've narrowed it down to a few. If any of you want to take a look and add comments or thoughts I would really appreciate it.

16"
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=750-790-LW

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=750-790-BFH-ELW

14.5"

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=780-790

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=780-790-BFH-ELW

Only difference is the barrels and lengths. Having trouble deciding.






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[Lost River]

FFG,

Spending $1400 (base price) on an AR for home defense is not something I would recommend to anyone I called a friend.

The same outfit (G&R) has Colt 6720s for $800.

Buying a boutique gun over a Colt is not what I would call a wise investment.

Besides for $600 difference, you can get about 2,000 rounds of training ammo

I would take the bone stock Colt 6720 and 2,000 rounds of ammo over the BCM every single time.

Purely my opinion. But an opinion of a guy who has spent a lot of time at defense manufacturers.. Stick with the Colt.

[Luke]

While i agree with LR, buy what you want dude. Either one will work and I promise you'll enjoy the rifle a lot more if you get the one you want. If money is not an issue, just make sure it's quality and after that, buy the one you like! Never owned one but always loved BCM. Id take one over a colt ANY day. Just "because" :) and yes, that is a good enough reason.

[Rick62]

I've narrowed it down to a few. If any of you want to take a look and add comments or thoughts I would really appreciate it.


Only difference is the barrels and lengths. Having trouble deciding.






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I would strongly urge you to go with a 16" barrel. It was mentioned earlier in the thread, but the very slight reduction in length is not worth the potential complications of the pinned muzzle device. (I say this as the owner of a pinned 14.5 KMR ELW-F)
Other than that, I assume you've weighed all of the other options brought up earlier (6920, 6720 etc) and you've landed on the BCM. Once you've considered your options, I'm squarely in the "spend your money on whatever the hell you want" camp.

That being said, I have a very difficult time not nudging folks towards a Colt offering these days. Particularly with the OEM offerings, I just don't see a better deal out there for a "serious use" AR.




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[hiro]

I recently purchased my first AR. I've been reading about these things for longer than I care to remember and finally treated myself for my birthday. :D

I kept it pretty simple, bought a mid length light weight hammer forged upper direct from Bravo as they had a promo on the BCG. The lower I bought from Rainier Arms as they had stock. I'd originally planned on buying the A5 lower that G and R offer but they were out of stock. A Magpul MOE SL hand guard, CTR stock, DD fixed rear sight, Fury P2X Tactical on an IWC SMC XL mount and VCAS sling round it out. I have an EOTech refund in the works and I am likely to use the funds to buy an Aimpoint PRO on a 1/3 lower witness mount. Having used the EOTech for a few years I like the larger window, I've never used a T1 and while it's the cool guy choice I think the larger tube and lower price make the PRO a better choice for me. I don't get why people buy the T series over the H, what am I missing? The lighter weight of the H or T versus the PRO and similar I get. Is the T series' only difference from the H it's NV compatibility? Aren't you better off using an IR laser with NV? Whatever it is, that's not me, I really don't need these features.

I was disappointed to learn the upper shipped with the triangular hand guard cap, I hadn't thought to check what the MOE SL needed or what the upper shipped with. I bought a round cap, spare FSB pins and crush washers from Bravo and a Schuster Mfg block to help me remove the FSB.

I really, really didn't want to have to do anything like assembly, I simply wanted to slap the upper on the lower and shoot! Anyway, I read BCM's post over at M4C.net on how to remove their FSB and it all went easily.

I wanted to keep the budget down and the mid length/MOE SL hand guard combo seemed the best way to allow me to learn to shoot with my support hand as far forward as possible. I don't know (or care) if the mid length shoots softer than the carbine, I have no frame of reference.

The IWC light mount sets the light too high when using the M-Lok slots and after talking with Earl at IWC I drilled two holes in the top of the hand guard and I'm now happy with where the light sits and my ability to keep my hand as far forward/thumb over the top and reach the light easily.

This being my first AR I was pleasantly surprised at how easy it it to manoeuvre a 16" rifle. The length is really no big deal and it not being pinned I was able to remove the muzzle device to swap out the hand guard cap with no dramas.

Yeah, sure I'd like a cool guy SBR with the latest rail but I do not need it. I do need training and to shoot the damn thing. Lots.

I hope my explaining the choices I made can help you. I am a noob but I'm looking forward to actually forming my own opinions from my experience rather than just reading other peoples.

Now the fun begins!

[Beat Trash]

I've narrowed it down to a few. If any of you want to take a look and add comments or thoughts I would really appreciate it.

16"
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=750-790-LW

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=750-790-BFH-ELW

14.5"

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=780-790

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=780-790-BFH-ELW

Only difference is the barrels and lengths. Having trouble deciding.






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I use the 14.5 version of what you have linked as a Patrol Rifle at work. I'm a LEO who manages and accompanies Canine officers on tracks of armed felons, so my carbine is set up around a particular need centered around light weight. My upper has the 14.5" ELW-f barrel with a 13" KMR rail. While I love this gun for what I use it for, if I had to do it over again, I'd go with the 16" setup. If only to get away from having a pinned and welded comp, which drastically reduces your options if you want to try something else in the future as far as rails, ect.

The guns you linked are excellent options. If these guns are in your price range then I would also give a very hard look at the new Daniel Defense DDM4V7 lw. For a lot of reasons, I prefer M-Lok rail over Keymod. I've been using the original BCM KMR rails since they were first introduced. I'm not in a big hurry to sell off my KMR uppers. But I don't know that I'm in a big hurry to get another one either.

But keep in mind, for a home defense gun, you still need a white light, back up sights a sling and preferably a red dot sight. Plus you need ammo. A lot of ammo. You need to get some training and then practice the skills that you learned in training.

I'd rather see a guy who has received competent training and has practiced what he was taught, armed with a stock Colt 6920 then a guy with the latest setup and zero training.

I have a box full of stock furniture that I have acquired over the years from Colt 6920's. The concept of the OEM guns is brilliant for guy like me who replace the stock furniture with their personal preference. A colt 6920 OEM2 with the hand guard of your choice is a very cost effective setup. Even more cost effective is the Colt 6920 with the MagPul MOE Sl furniture on it.

If you still are looking at the BCM guns, then I'd look at the 16" ELW barreled gun with the 15" KMR rail personally. But if I really was looking hard at this BCM gun, I'd also look hard at the DD V7.

[Duces Tecum]

Due to current events, political uncertainty and other factors, I have been heavily considering an ar for home defense.

Home defense? Suggestions would reasonably vary depending on where you live. A house on 40 acres surrounded by national forest lands would demand one sort of AR. A tract home on a small suburban lot would require quite another. You've been presented great advice regarding the "40 acre" house.

House clearing with a long arm is a tiring chore. A home on a small lot will be well served by a wieldy gun. I'd think seriously about one of those AR pistols, before possibly settling on a good 12 ga pump shotgun with the shortest legal barrel. This is just an opinion, but in a suburban environment shottys probably should be considered more than they are.

[Jay Cunningham]

http://i.imgur.com/2MioAsVl.jpg


I just finished assembling this:


Colt AR6720
Magpul SL stock, pistol grip, and HGs
Magpul M-LOK vert grip
Magpul rear MBUS
Magpul MS4 sling
Aimpoint Carbine Optic
IWC M-LOK QD sling mount
IWC M-LOK light mount
Surefire G2X Tactical light

Palmetto State Armory just ran a deal for the ACO, 12 PMAGs, and the MBUS for $399 shipped.

[Duelist]

Home defense? Suggestions would reasonably vary depending on where you live. A house on 40 acres surrounded by national forest lands would demand one sort of AR. A tract home on a small suburban lot would require quite another. You've been presented great advice regarding the "40 acre" house.

House clearing with a long arm is a tiring chore. A home on a small lot will be well served by a wieldy gun. I'd think seriously about one of those AR pistols, before possibly settling on a good 12 ga pump shotgun with the shortest legal barrel. This is just an opinion, but in a suburban environment shottys probably should be considered more than they are.

Shotguns are awesome, and have several things going for them. They are versatile: for someone on a very limited budget, a used pump shotgun and some type of used, concealable 9mm or .38 can take very good care of most needs without spending a ton of money. That shotgun can be pressed into service as a HD weapon (devastatingly effective in the right hands), serious bear defense, a bird and small game hunting tool, a shotgun game playing tool, and a big game gun at appropriate range and with appropriate loads.

But. They are not ideal for anything at all, except shooting birds and doing shotgun games. Even the shotgun games are probably more fun with a specialized tool designed to maximize the game.

They are beaten handily by the AR as HD weapons, whether urban or rural, and for a lot of reasons. The typical shotgun holds 4 rounds. This can be extended, but if you want more than 7, you have to accept a longer barrel - and without special paperwork, the minimum barrel length is 18". Contrast that with the typical AR - even in most capacity-restricted states, 10 rounds can be in the magazine of a 16" barreled carbine. For the rest of us, 20 and 30 round normal magazines can be had easily and cheaply, and if you want to get crazy, the drum mags and Surefire fat mags can hold 2-3x as many.

Some people freak out when I say that - "oh noes, yur gunna hose down the neighborhood!"

Um, no. That capacity means I have more chances, and can stay in a fight longer.

The AR can be like mine, a 16" LW barrel with a collapsible stock, weigh less than 6#, and still be manageable by anybody in my house as far as weight of the gun and recoil are concerned. Shorter than a normal short shotgun, weighs less, recoils WAY less(very important for more than will admit it) holds over 3x the rounds, semiAuto so short stroking the action doesn't happen, testing proves that 5.56 ammo punches through less common construction materials than buckshot or slugs, can be easily fitted with optics and lights to enhance hit potential and target verification; and in the unlikely event of needing to step outside and address a target down the street, the AR is as ready as the shooter is.

With all of those advantages, it is very difficult for me to recommend a shotgun for most people as a HD weapon. If they hunt with a shotgun, or play games with one, or already have one, or are broke but need a gun, then we talk shotguns. Otherwise, the modern AR buries it.

The OP wants one, for some very real reasons. No more justification is needed. He's just got to pick one from so very good options and spend his money.

[Lex Luthier]

http://i.imgur.com/2MioAsVl.jpg


I just finished assembling this:


Colt AR6720
Magpul SL stock, pistol grip, and HGs
Magpul M-LOK vert grip
Magpul rear MBUS
Magpul MS4 sling
Aimpoint Carbine Optic
IWC M-LOK QD sling mount
IWC M-LOK light mount
Surefire G2X Tactical light

Palmetto State Armory just ran a deal for the ACO, 12 PMAGs, and the MBUS for $399 shipped.

What you've got there is pretty much my ideal setup for a first AR carbine.
(Been following this thread since its inception.)
I just learned something. Thanks!

[MistWolf]

I've narrowed it down to a few. If any of you want to take a look and add comments or thoughts I would really appreciate it.

16"
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=750-790-LW

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=750-790-BFH-ELW

14.5"

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=780-790

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=780-790-BFH-ELW

Only difference is the barrels and lengths. Having trouble deciding.






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G&R Tactical has good prices and good customer service, but they also sell out fast. You must click on the "ADD TO CART" button to check to see if what you want is in stock. I did a quick check and the only two ARs I found to be in stock are the Colt Expanse and the DD SBR.

G&R does continuously have stock coming in, but you gotta keep your eyes peeled and have to act fast. I got recently got a Colt 6933 from G&R for a good price and their stock sold out shortly after I placed my order.

I've lived in a lot of places in my life, from a 32 foot motorhome on a dirt pad to a 2000 square foot brick house on a couple of acres of land. I'm just a silly-villian, so take my advice good what it's worth, but I'd never choose a shotgun over an AR to defend hearth and home. The only AR I like better for the job than a 16 inch is one with a 10.5 inch barrel, but the shorty has a shortcoming or two (my puns are always intended) that must be taken into consideration before choosing it over a 16 inch AR

[JCS]

Thanks for all the input guys! I'm still reading through them but I wanted to add this about not listing a colt:

I thought long and hard about it. My goal is to buy an ar and that be my only rifle. I want to buy once and cry once and have no regrets. I know I'll have regrets with the colt because it doesn't have a full or near full length hand guard. I don't like the front sight post/gas block combo. I could put a different handguard on it but by the time I have the front sight post removed and the handguard installed I'm not saving that much money.

I am considering the Daniel defense as well. But I've gravitated towards the BCM

I appreciate the conversation! Training and ammo will be on my list no matter which one I go with.


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[HCM]

From what I've read, BCM sets the bar for bcg.

I really started considering their recce rifle after I heard Kyle defoor was behind it.


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BCM gets their BCG from Microbest as do DD, Sionics and Sons of Liberty gun works.

I will echo the recommendation for a 16" colt of your choice and using the remaining $$$ for optics, light ammo and training.

If you must have a boutique gun DD and BCM are both fine choices. I would consider buying a BCM complete lower from G&R and buying the 16" upper of your choice. The only negative to BCM is they don't offer MLOK. Like beat trash, I have two key of rifles (BCM & Noveske) I'm not getting rid of them but I don't see myself buying another keymod rail either.

Speaking of boutique rifles, three other high quality manufacturers worth looking at are:

Sons of Liberty Gun Works
Sionics
Archer Manufacturing

[PearTree]

BCM gets their BCG from Microbest as do DD, Sionics and Sons of Liberty gun works.

I will echo the recommendation for a 16" colt of your choice and using the remaining $$$ for optics, light ammo and training.

If you must have a boutique gun DD and BCM are both fine choices. I would consider buying a BCM complete lower from G&R and buying the 16" upper of your choice. The only negative to BCM is they don't offer MLOK. Like beat trash, I have two key of rifles (BCM & Noveske) I'm not getting rid of them but I don't see myself buying another keymod rail either.

Speaking of boutique rifles, three other high quality manufacturers worth looking at are:

Sons of Liberty Gun Works
Sionics
Archer Manufacturing
I agree with all this.

[GMSweet]

Firefighterguy, try and find a Colt. 6920 OEM2. I have some of the same preferences, and the OEM2 will let me choose my own free float handguard and mount my optic. I bought a non-recommended brand for my first go so I could tinker and learn.

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[Lex Luthier]

Firefighterguy, try and find a Colt. 6920 OEM2. I have some of the same preferences, and the OEM2 will let me choose my own free float handguard and mount my optic. I bought a non-recommended brand for my first go so I could tinker and learn.

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JAD just built up an OEM-2 a month or two back. I learned a bunch from those posts, too. Here is the thread: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?20891-OEM2-inbound
The OEM-2 seems to sell out a little more slowly on Gunbroker, etc. than the OEM1 and 6720/6920. Grant at G & R offers them at an excellent price. You might send him an e-mail and have him notify you when he has them in stock.

[frozentundra]

I've narrowed it down to a few. If any of you want to take a look and add comments or thoughts I would really appreciate it.

16"
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=750-790-LW

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=750-790-BFH-ELW

14.5"

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=780-790

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=780-790-BFH-ELW

Only difference is the barrels and lengths. Having trouble deciding.






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You could buy a BCM lower with A5 receiver extension from Grant at G&R, then you could buy the Upper directly from BCM and get a free Keymod rail section and free keymod sling mount. This would actually be cheaper than buying the whole rifle from Grant. The BCM lowers with A5 extension are actually in stock at G&R at this time. Be sure to add a stock in drop down menu. Just food for thought. Could save some bucks and get some extras.

[Default.mp3]

Sons of Liberty Gun WorksWhat's so great about SoLGW? I know Shockey at P&S has been running one of them, but I'm not seeing anything that makes them stand out too much (they do choose nice components, and are transparent about their choices), especially since it's a sample of one. Sionics has the M4C hivemind backing, and Archer has a bunch of LFers behind it, but what's SoLGW's claim to quality? Not saying they're garbage or anything, just not sure how they made your short-list of quality.

As for the topic on hand, I'd consider staying away from the BCM uppers, purely because as previously noted, they come equipped with KeyMod, which appears to be a less robust system than M-LOK. Chopping an FSB on a Colt is pretty easy, but I'd also consider a turnkey solution like the DD M4V7 (https://danieldefense.com/firearms/caliber/5-56x45mm/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v7tm.html)/M4V7LW (https://danieldefense.com/firearms/caliber/5-56x45mm/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v7tm-lw.html) or the MI Sentinel Concepts Carbine (http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=2521). I've heard some good things about commerical FN ARs, too, though I'm still cautious about them simply due to how new they are.

Out of the list you've chosen, IMO 14.5" sucks due to the pin/weld muzzle device requirement, as changing muzzle devices or handguards will involve a fair bit of work and possible destruction of the muzzle device. On the 16" guns, I'm actually curious as to why the BFH barreled rifle is cheaper than the standard one; cold-hammer forged AR barrels are technically superior than standard AR barrels, as they have an edge in durability, though you'd have to be putting a lot of rounds down range for you to ever notice any difference. The BFH gun also had a longer handguard which is generally more expensive.

[HCM]

What's so great about SoLGW? I know Shockey at P&S has been running one of them, but I'm not seeing anything that makes them stand out too much (they do choose nice components, and are transparent about their choices), especially since it's a sample of one. Sionics has the M4C hivemind backing, and Archer has a bunch of LFers behind it, but what's SoLGW's claim to quality? Not saying they're garbage or anything, just not sure how they made your short-list of quality.

As for the topic on hand, I'd consider staying away from the BCM uppers, purely because as previously noted, they come equipped with KeyMod, which appears to be a less robust system than M-LOK. Chopping an FSB on a Colt is pretty easy, but I'd also consider a turnkey solution like the DD M4V7 (https://danieldefense.com/firearms/caliber/5-56x45mm/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v7tm.html)/M4V7LW (https://danieldefense.com/firearms/caliber/5-56x45mm/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v7tm-lw.html) or the MI Sentinel Concepts Carbine (http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=2521). I've heard some good things about commerical FN ARs, too, though I'm still cautious about them simply due to how new they are.

Out of the list you've chosen, IMO 14.5" sucks due to the pin/weld muzzle device requirement, as changing muzzle devices or handguards will involve a fair bit of work and possible destruction of the muzzle device. On the 16" guns, I'm actually curious as to why the BFH barreled rifle is cheaper than the standard one; cold-hammer forged AR barrels are technically superior than standard AR barrels, as they have an edge in durability, though you'd have to be putting a lot of rounds down range for you to ever notice any difference. The BFH gun also had a longer handguard which is generally more expensive.

Objectively - there is nothing magical about SOLGW - BUT - there is nothing wrong with them either. It is a properly assembled gun using quality components - it is on par with a Colt, DD, BCM, Sionics or Archer gun. As you stated they are transparent about what their guns are and are not. They are still building the brand but the model is based on solid duty grade guns not "special sauce".

My impression is BCM's business model (quality parts and proper assembly) is the model for both SOLGW and Sionics.

Subjectively, SOLGW is local to me. I have no connection to them other than satisfied parts customer. However, I see them regularly go out of their way to help people locally. SOLGW is a builder / manufacturer however they sell parts and support local guys building their own guns with tech support and even allowing use of specialized tools. They also regularly work on people's non-working "other brand" AR's and get them running, assembled to spec etc.

SOLGW also hosts training classes including Tac Med classes and armorers classes conducted by outside trainers

I'm personally aware they have gotten a couple very small and very specialized .mil contracts for USAF.

As you noted, Matt Shockey of Falcon Tactical (and Fort Bend County SO SWAT) is running a 5k plus round test on a SOLGW rifle. It's at about 4K rounds plus some SIMS/UTM conversion bolt time. I understand he just had a child so it many be awhile before the test is completed.

You tuber mr.Gunsandgear is also running a test on SOLGW rifles with positive results.

Likely the best test is two local ranges here are successfully running SOLGW full auto rifles as rental guns.

[EM_]

http://i.imgur.com/2MioAsVl.jpg


I just finished assembling this:


Colt AR6720
Magpul SL stock, pistol grip, and HGs
Magpul M-LOK vert grip
Magpul rear MBUS
Magpul MS4 sling
Aimpoint Carbine Optic
IWC M-LOK QD sling mount
IWC M-LOK light mount
Surefire G2X Tactical light

Palmetto State Armory just ran a deal for the ACO, 12 PMAGs, and the MBUS for $399 shipped.

I've used a 6720 for years with an Aimpoint PRO and a similar setup as my duty gun. It's a hard package to beat for the price point and all components are of the highest quality.

Everything you actually need, nothing ya don't. Buy it, use any extra money for ammo and a class.

[Default.mp3]

Objectively - there is nothing magical about SOLGW - BUT - there is nothing wrong with them either. It is a properly assembled gun using quality components - it is on par with a Colt, DD, BCM, Sionics or Archer gun. As you stated they are transparent about what their guns are and are not. They are still building the brand but the model is based on solid duty grade guns not "special sauce".

My impression is BCM's business model (quality parts and proper assembly) is the model for both SOLGW and Sionics.My main concern is that SoLGW simply hasn't been around long enough/shipped enough units to get enough long-term reliability feedback with a big enough sample size to quantify the "properly assembled" part. I'm actually kinda cautious about Sionics, for the same reasons, but it's just skepticism is all, and I would not think anyone made a poor choice if they went with either brand (Archer just gets a pass from me since I have a pro-LF bias).


SOLGW also hosts training classes including Tac Med classes and armorers classes conducted by outside trainersWhile that certainly ups their cred, Legion Firearms also had training, and they've turned out problem guns, too, while they were around, so it's not a huge factor for me.


As you noted, Matt Shockey of Falcon Tactical (and Fort Bend County SO SWAT) is running a 5k plus round test on a SOLGW rifle. It's at about 4K rounds plus some SIMS/UTM conversion bolt time. I understand he just had a child so it many be awhile before the test is completed.Yeah, I know Shockey personally, he's my go-to guy for local training these days, and I roleplay for him occasionally. He's not the hugest gear queer (I fucking warned him about Level III UHMWPE), but I trust his opinions on rifles; still, the fact remains that he has only a sample of one.

All in all, I was just a bit surprised at how high your praise was for them, and just wanted to know the reasoning; after your explanation, I suppose it's reasonable to call them "high quality boutique", even I personally wouldn't apply that label (I'd apply that label more toward Hodge, KAC, or old Noveske).

[John Hearne]

My main concern is that SoLGW simply hasn't been around long enough/shipped enough units to get enough long-term reliability feedback with a big enough sample size to quantify the "properly assembled" part.

I like BCM and DD because they have been doing it at SCALE for some time. It is very easy for a startup to pour themselves into the early products and turn out great stuff. The real test is when you become "cool" and demand steps up. A lot of times, this is where the wheels fall off. DD and BCM have been doing this long enough that I'm not worried.

[HCM]

My main concern is that SoLGW simply hasn't been around long enough/shipped enough units to get enough long-term reliability feedback with a big enough sample size to quantify the "properly assembled" part. I'm actually kinda cautious about Sionics, for the same reasons, but it's just skepticism is all, and I would not think anyone made a poor choice if they went with either brand (Archer just gets a pass from me since I have a pro-LF bias).

While that certainly ups their cred, Legion Firearms also had training, and they've turned out problem guns, too, while they were around, so it's not a huge factor for me.

Yeah, I know Shockey personally, he's my go-to guy for local training these days, and I roleplay for him occasionally. He's not the hugest gear queer (I fucking warned him about Level III UHMWPE), but I trust his opinions on rifles; still, the fact remains that he has only a sample of one.

All in all, I was just a bit surprised at how high your praise was for them, and just wanted to know the reasoning; after your explanation, I suppose it's reasonable to call them "high quality boutique", even I personally wouldn't apply that label (I'd apply that label more toward Hodge, KAC, or old Noveske).

Just so there is no misunderstanding, I'd call them (SOLGW) "regular Boutique" (like BCM DD Archer etc ) rather than "high quality / special sauce" boutique like Noveske, hodge and KAC. SOLGW isn't re-inventing the wheel, nor are they claiming to, but they are building solid duty / defensive grade rifles. They do pressure test all their BCG and test fire all their rifles etc.

Noveske's special sauce was their barrels with some innovation in gas systems and rail. Otherwise they were quality parts and proper assembly.

KAC is doing true innovation and improvement - they are quality parts and proper assembly but you are paying for the R&D and economics of non standard improved parts.

Hodge is local here as well. They are nice rifles with quality parts and proper assembly but with the Mod 1's I did not see the special sauce justifying a price above DD/ BCM etc. maybe the promise wil be fulfilled with the Mod 2 and the Lithium Aluminum Receivers.

SOLGW is "new" on the bigger scene but they have been around locally for a few years. I know several people who've had good results with their rifles, uppers etc.

The armorers class they host is Will Larson from Semper Paratus Arms, who as you likely know is also involved with Sionics.

My impression of Legion, like many small firearms company issues was guys who knew guns but didn't know business. One of the principals of SOLGW is part of a family which runs a large, successful regional non firearms business. There is financial backing and business knowledge in the mix in addition to passion for and knowledge of guns. SOLGW is actually based in part of a facility owned by that family business. It is not fancy but it works and I'm sure it helps control costs. Barring an AWB or other unforeseen event, I would expect them to be around for the foreseeable future.

SOLGW also has employees, including one of the owners with significant experience as "end users" of rifles overseas. I'll PM you about that. Basically they have a good mix of business and firearms knowledge.

Re Archer, like SIONICS and SOLGW, is currently more of an assembler with quality parts and proper assembly. They have some dudes with significant real world experience like Buck, and they have Chad M. Who is an actual school trained gunsmith and has significant armorer experience from his time with DOS. Archer is starting to do some interesting stuff like AR-10s with faster twist barrels etc.

[Shotgun]

First training you should get is an Appleseed Class on riflery.
This. Never really used a sling prior to Appleseed on deer rifles. Now, I never use a rifle without a sling. Appleseed is great training.

[Jay Cunningham]

This. Never really used a sling prior to Appleseed on deer rifles. Now, I never use a rifle without a sling. Appleseed is great training.

I must respectfully disagree in the context of the thread title, i.e. "home defense"

Appleseed isn't really going to be very useful for home defense purposes as compared to... well, something else.

I'd certainly encourage Appleseed at some point... because why not?

[Gray222]

I must respectfully disagree in the context of the thread title, i.e. "home defense"

Appleseed isn't really going to be very useful for home defense purposes as compared to... well, something else.

I'd certainly encourage Appleseed at some point... because why not?

Appleseed is pretty awesome but no, I agree, it will not give you even a basic 101 course of home defense, especially using a rifle.

Everyone should go through Appleseed, especially in the early stages of education like for children or women.

[HCM]

Y'all are right about Appleseed not bring direct home defense training, but I would recommend and Appleseed class THEN a defensive carbine course rather than the other way around because / fundamentals.

[Jay Cunningham]

Y'all are right about Appleseed not bring direct home defense training, but I would recommend and Appleseed class THEN a defensive carbine course rather than the other way around because / fundamentals.

Understood.

I would not.

:cool:

[JCS]

I titled it with Home Defense because realistically that's the role it will fit in to. I'm definitely open to more of the tactical rifle training as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JCS]

Firefighterguy, try and find a Colt. 6920 OEM2. I have some of the same preferences, and the OEM2 will let me choose my own free float handguard and mount my optic. I bought a non-recommended brand for my first go so I could tinker and learn.

Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk

Well this really changes things. I would add this to my list now as well. I don't know much about the differences in all the hand guards, buttstocks, grips etc so that could get kind of confusing. However, it would allow me to build a rifle tailored to me.

Sounds like I'm gonna go with a 16" rifle.


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[StraitR]

Sounds like I'm gonna go with a 16" rifle.

Good choice. Pinned muzzle devices always turn out to be a PITA at some point down the road. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather have a 14.5, but the juice isn't worth the squeeze for 1.5" savings. Having to go through the hassle plus pay someone to remove a pinned muzzle device and then pin/weld it back after troubleshooting, muzzle device change, or rail swap is just silly.

[Willard]

Good choice. Pinned muzzle devices always turn out to be a PITA at some point down the road. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather have a 14.5, but the juice isn't worth the squeeze for 1.5" savings. Having to go through the hassle plus pay someone to remove a pinned muzzle device and then pin/weld it back after troubleshooting, muzzle device change, or rail swap is just silly.

Seems this is the conventional wisdom. Personally, I prefer the handling of a 14.5 over the 16, and have no use for a compensator or any intention of changing from a traditional bird cage or Vortex flash suppressor, so no hassle with the pin and weld or need for a conversion down the road. Honestly, I wish I'd purchased all my ARs as 14.5 rather than 16. Seems I am in the minority on this from what I've read over the years though.

[Jay Cunningham]

My preference is also the 14.5" carbine gas system.

It's not really a big deal though. Every possible AR configuration pretty much does the same thing in the end.

[StraitR]

Seems this is the conventional wisdom. Personally, I prefer the handling of a 14.5 over the 16, and have no use for a compensator or any intention of changing from a traditional bird cage or Vortex flash suppressor, so no hassle with the pin and weld or need for a conversion down the road. Honestly, I wish I'd purchased all my ARs as 14.5 rather than 16. Seems I am in the minority on this from what I've read over the years though.

I don't think many would argue that shorter carbines tend to handle better. In fact, if NFA minimum requirement was 14.5" instead of 16", we'd probably be having the same conversation about 13" barrels with pinned muzzle devices.

Personally, I've assembled complete uppers, changed muzzle devices on four uppers due to getting a suppressor, and upgraded older quad rails as newer and lighter options came out. I happily do this myself since it doesn't require a mill and welding equipment to unpin and pin MD's, and because I enjoy it. I've done the same many times for multiple friends, and their friends, for many of the same reasons. Then again, some people may never change a thing or have an issue that requires disassembly, so to each their own. I can only speak to my experience and that of my circle of friends.

[nycnoob]

Appleseed is great training.



I must respectfully disagree in the context of the thread title, i.e. "home defense"

Appleseed isn't really going to be very useful for home defense purposes as compared to... well, something else.

I'd certainly encourage Appleseed at some point... because why not?



Been thinking about this exchange most of the day. It really highlights the different training
philosophies that people are using.

I know that the old GunSite doctrine would favor HighPower competitions (and the AppleSeed
instructions using scaled targets) as practice for "fighting". I am sure that I have heard include
Darrel and Pat Rogers opine as much and even the Day of PF Bacon (As taught by Failure2Stop)
had a similar precision feel to it. Even TLG's pistol drills included a high precision low speed drill,
he thought marksmanship was an important but neglected art.

However precision shooting is not fighting and the "practical" classes certainly feel different.
I have heard both HeadHunter and the Leopard Printer (Gabe White) opine that running a
gun fast is not at all like running one slow. One has to practice fast to be fast. Which is
what I think Jay is saying here.

In my own experience I do think AppleSeed helps. I just enjoy the weekend shooting and I bring a picnic
lunch and a bunch of friends for a weekend of shooting. I know I got some complements on my shooting
at the last Givens shotgun class I took and AppleSeed was the only remotely similar practice I had done all summer.
One friend of mine commented that Appleseed teaches you "proper form" for shooting.

Well its a bit of a rambling post but there seems to be some shooters who find this
sort of precision shooting carries over to the more fighting end of things but not all agree.
I just did one Highpower match to see what it was like and I plan on doing a small bore
match in two weeks.

For my personal training I just got a bunch of HighPower 100 yard targets which I intend
to engage at 25 yards with slugs in my own private HighPower games. Appleseed closed
down at my favorite range so gotta make my own fun now.

[John Hearne]

In my own experience I do think AppleSeed helps.

The rifle has two uses - an oversized, hard hitting pistol and an tool capable of delivering precise rounds at a broad range of distances. Any hack can spank the trigger and hit an 8" circle at 15 yards. It takes a different set of skills to hit a target at distance or to hit a small portion of an difficult target at closer distances. The latter requires a solid grounding in the fundamentals of rifle marksmanship. The easiest way to get that grounding is to earn a Rifleman patch from Appleseed. If you can repeatedly shoot 210+ on their course, you have the necessary pre-requisites to get the most out of your rifle. I have found the skills I learned at the Appleseed very useful at both Paul Howe's Pistol/Rifle instructor course and the Viking Tactics Carbine 1.5 courses.

I've often joked that if I were king of the world, I would require a Rifleman patch before you were allowed to buy any centerfire rifle. I was surprised and disappointed with how few people could hit the black of a bullseye at 100 yards from prone at the VTAC class - and these were folks with very high end rifles and magnified optics.

Finally, Pat Rogers has repeatedly said that he learned more that helped him in gunfights at his Highpower matches than he ever did at an IPSC match.

[blues]

Seems this is the conventional wisdom. Personally, I prefer the handling of a 14.5 over the 16, and have no use for a compensator or any intention of changing from a traditional bird cage or Vortex flash suppressor, so no hassle with the pin and weld or need for a conversion down the road. Honestly, I wish I'd purchased all my ARs as 14.5 rather than 16. Seems I am in the minority on this from what I've read over the years though.

I'm with you. I love my S&W M&P15 TS with 14.5" barrel and pinned Vortex flash suppressor.

My mods and accessories are a Magpul MS4 sling, Streamlight TLR-1 HL, Aimpoint H-2, Wilson Combat TTU trigger and a Damage Industries chrome silicon buffer spring.

It works for me. (Though in truth had I not qualified for the LEO discount I'd probably have purchased a less expensive carbine.)

[JCS]

Any tips on weapon lights for a long gun? Do I need a surefire? Pressure switch? Lumens?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[blues]

Surefire is great and I have one on my shotgun...however, the Streamlight (http://www.streamlight.com/en-us/product/product.html?pid=276) that I mentioned above works very well.

Only you can decide what you "need".

[HCM]

Any tips on weapon lights for a long gun? Do I need a surefire? Pressure switch? Lumens?


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Surefire, Streamlight and Arisaka / malkoff are all good.

"Switchology" is something you will need to try and see what works best for you. It depends on your gun, placement / mounting of the light and your shooting style. Get a feel for how you best shoot / handle the gun and choose a mounting switching system which works with that rather than adapting to the light.

Options are: a pistol light ( X300U / TLR-1), a dedicated weapons light (Scout, or the SL or Arisaka knock offs) or a hand held in a ring mount.

If you go with a handheld, you want a single output model. I like a clicky tail cap switch but YMMV.

In general I'm an "I want all the lumens guy", especially on a rifle. I want a light which matches the capability / range of my rifle as much as possible. I want at least 500 lumens on a rifle with a beam designed for more "throw" .

The 600 lumen Surefire Scout and the Arisaka/ Malkoff version are good as are the surefire Fury handhelds, particularly the BCM/EAG version. I have tried the new streamlight pro WML yet but I've had good results with Streamlight hand helds like the pro tac and T2X in weapons mounts.

Some of the Streamlight handhelds have an odd .936 body diameter, you can either wrap them with tape or buy a plastic ring / filler from GG&G to adapt them to the common 1" ring mounts.

[GMSweet]

I went with an Elzetta Alpha in an Arisaka mount for mine. I stuck it at 11:30 at the end of an ALG Defense EMRv3 rail. I'm not kicking down any doors, but this seems like plenty to me. Eventually, I'll grab a class and be told I'll get killed in the streets, but I like it so far. I opted for the hi/low clicky tail cap. The momentary switch is deep with good resistance, but can still be locked on. For a "home defense" rifle, the Elzetta has a nice even wash to it; more so than my little Four Sevens QTA.

Here's what I call my "Lipstick on a pig plinker"...eventually I'll have a good rifle, but this silly thing runs so far. It's been a real learning experience for me and the reading/experimenting has been helpful.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160810/66390487e59e16f8280f90dd92e50e1b.jpg


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[JCS]

Surefire, Streamlight and Arisaka / malkoff are all good.

"Switchology" is something you will need to try and see what works best for you. It depends on your gun, placement / mounting of the light and your shooting style. Get a feel for how you best shoot / handle the gun and choose a mounting switching system which works with that rather than adapting to the light.

Options are: a pistol light ( X300U / TLR-1), a dedicated weapons light (Scout, or the SL or Arisaka knock offs) or a hand held in a ring mount.

If you go with a handheld, you want a single output model. I like a clicky tail cap switch but YMMV.

In general I'm an "I want all the lumens guy", especially on a rifle. I want a light which matches the capability / range of my rifle as much as possible. I want at least 500 lumens on a rifle with a beam designed for more "throw" .

The 600 lumen Surefire Scout and the Arisaka/ Malkoff version are good as are the surefire Fury handhelds, particularly the BCM/EAG version. I have tried the new streamlight pro WML yet but I've had good results with Streamlight hand helds like the pro tac and T2X in weapons mounts.

Some of the Streamlight handhelds have an odd .936 body diameter, you can either wrap them with tape or buy a plastic ring / filler from GG&G to adapt them to the common 1" ring mounts.

Thank you. I tend to like stream light because of my experience with them. I have one attached to my helmet and it's been through its fair share of fires and hasn't skipped a beat.

Their new protac 2s made for long guns seems pretty hard to beat for around $100


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[JCS]

I went with an Elzetta Alpha in an Arisaka mount for mine. I stuck it at 11:30 at the end of an ALG Defense EMRv3 rail. I'm not kicking down any doors, but this seems like plenty to me. Eventually, I'll grab a class and be told I'll get killed in the streets, but I like it so far. I opted for the hi/low clicky tail cap. The momentary switch is deep with good resistance, but can still be locked on. For a "home defense" rifle, the Elzetta has a nice even wash to it; more so than my little Four Sevens QTA.

Here's what I call my "Lipstick on a pig plinker"...eventually I'll have a good rifle, but this silly thing runs so far. It's been a real learning experience for me and the reading/experimenting has been helpful.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160810/66390487e59e16f8280f90dd92e50e1b.jpg


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Nice setup!

What made you go with the 1-4x vs a red dot?


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[HCM]

I went with an Elzetta Alpha in an Arisaka mount for mine. I stuck it at 11:30 at the end of an ALG Defense EMRv3 rail. I'm not kicking down any doors, but this seems like plenty to me. Eventually, I'll grab a class and be told I'll get killed in the streets, but I like it so far. I opted for the hi/low clicky tail cap. The momentary switch is deep with good resistance, but can still be locked on. For a "home defense" rifle, the Elzetta has a nice even wash to it; more so than my little Four Sevens QTA.

Here's what I call my "Lipstick on a pig plinker"...eventually I'll have a good rifle, but this silly thing runs so far. It's been a real learning experience for me and the reading/experimenting has been helpful.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160810/66390487e59e16f8280f90dd92e50e1b.jpg


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The Elzetta Alpha is - 315 lumens - anything over 200 is usable inside but more is better. Do some Force in Force in low light and you will want a brighter light.

Your eyes make a difference as well. Your visual acuity is greatest in your mid teens, by the time you reach your mid 40's you will need 4x as much light to see the same thing. 46 year old me needs 4x the light to see something that 16 year old me needed. Luckily I was young when the Surefire 6P's "sixty lumens of blinding light" was state of the art :cool:

[GMSweet]

Nice setup!

What made you go with the 1-4x vs a red dot?



Mostly a lot of reading and knowing that at 43 I have already have a mild astigmatism in both eyes. I don't need glasses full time...yet...but it's coming. The illuminated reticle on the Leupold works well enough for me. I figure once I get a quality rifle, I test out the red dots and add one if it works for me.

[GMSweet]

The Elzetta Alpha is - 315 lumens - anything over 200 is usable inside but more is better. Do some Force in Force in low light and you will want a brighter light.


That would just be a shame if I "needed" to grab an Elzetta Bravo with an AVS head and pocket the Alpha! :cool:

[JCS]

Mostly a lot of reading and knowing that at 43 I have already have a mild astigmatism in both eyes. I don't need glasses full time...yet...but it's coming. The illuminated reticle on the Leupold works well enough for me. I figure once I get a quality rifle, I test out the red dots and add one if it works for me.

I have mild astigmatism as well. I wear contacts full time. The only red dots I've looked through in the past have been lower end optics and they tend to have a starburst look to them. I was told it was because of astigmatism. I'm hoping a higher end optic like an aimpoint would help and be a crisp dot.


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[blues]

I have mild astigmatism as well. I wear contacts full time. The only red dots I've looked through in the past have been lower end optics and they tend to have a starburst look to them. I was told it was because of astigmatism. I'm hoping a higher end optic like an aimpoint would help and be a crisp dot.


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It won't mitigate the issue. I see a bit of starburst with the Aimpoint H2 but it doesn't matter and the dot is still crisp. If you've zeroed the red dot it doesn't matter if it's perfectly round or starburst...put it on the target, do your part and you're good to go.

The higher you dial the intensity the more it's apparent but if you keep the setting appropriate for the light conditions, it's not even a mild distraction.

I drilled with mine (and the Streamlight) in the house last night under various light and no light conditions and it works like a champ. Don't let astigmatism keep you from making a fair evaluation.

BTW, I use a 2 MOA dot. The H2 is also available in a 4 MOA version.

[Randy Harris]

Another vote for Colt 6720 for basic HD AR. It will do everything you would need an AR to do and they can still be found for less than $900 . It has a flat top receiver so you can mount an optic, comes with a flip up rear sight (that you can replace if you don't like) and has a 1/7 twist so it will work with heavier bullets like the 75 and 77 gr stuff if you want to use those. When funds are available add an optic to it and maybe a light and it will do anything an HD rifle can reasonably be asked to do and thanks to the light weight barrel still does not weigh a ton.

[nalesq]

It won't mitigate the issue. I see a bit of starburst with the Aimpoint H2 but it doesn't matter and the dot is still crisp. If you've zeroed the red dot it doesn't matter if it's perfectly round or starburst...put it on the target, do your part and you're good to go.

I do find that a perfectly round dot helps with zeroing or any kind of precision shooting at significant distance. However, what I do then is flip up the rear small aperture. For optical magic reasons I don't understand, this makes my astigmatic starburst go away, and I then get the perfect circle.

For this reason, I do also use absolute (instead of lower third) cowitnessing of the irons and optic, and use flip front and rears.

[JCS]

Instead of starting a new thread I thought I would update this one and ask the questions here:
I decided one a bcm oem and I am outfitting it with a bcm stock and a geiselle mk8 mlok handrail.

Gonna be smart and just get an aimpoint pro. Unsure about iron sights or if they are necessary. Will the plastic magpul work?

My big question is on a flashlight and sling. I know zero about slings but I've narrowed the flashlight down to a couple: the Streamlight protac rifle with pressure switch or the inforce wml or wmlx.

Those two stood out for the price. I would rather buy more mags and ammo than get a surefire, but maybe I'm off base on that?

[Duces Tecum]

Consider an FN.

[BillSWPA]

Instead of starting a new thread I thought I would update this one and ask the questions here:
I decided one a bcm oem and I am outfitting it with a bcm stock and a geiselle mk8 mlok handrail.

Gonna be smart and just get an aimpoint pro. Unsure about iron sights or if they are necessary. Will the plastic magpul work?

My big question is on a flashlight and sling. I know zero about slings but I've narrowed the flashlight down to a couple: the Streamlight protac rifle with pressure switch or the inforce wml or wmlx.

Those two stood out for the price. I would rather buy more mags and ammo than get a surefire, but maybe I'm off base on that?

Streamlight weapon lights are just fine. Surefire builds a nice light but very expensive. I agree you are better off getting ammo and magazines with the money.

Backup iron sights are always a good idea and it hurts nothing to have them.

The Vickers sling from Blue Force Gear works well.


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[Montesf1030]

My home defense options are one of this two AR pistol builds .... Either my AR 9 with Glock magazines or my AR 15 pistol !!! Luv them both...http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161005/db212742220e6609d7ccfb665a2d99ed.jpg


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[blues]

You should always, imho, have backup iron sights and the Magpul MBUS are durable and accurate. I use them for 1/3 co-witness with my Aimpoint H2. Any system can fail.

I use a different Streamlight, the TLR-1 HL, but they offer good equipment for the money. I've been quite satisfied with mine. (I didn't want a pressure switch setup.)

As for a sling, I've found the Magpul MS4 to be well designed. Allows dual point and single point carry, easy adjustments and transitions and QD connections. (I have three points of attachment on my rifle, stock, rail and castle nut.)

Good luck with your project.

[Little Creek]

Mostly a lot of reading and knowing that at 43 I have already have a mild astigmatism in both eyes. I don't need glasses full time...yet...but it's coming. The illuminated reticle on the Leupold works well enough for me. I figure once I get a quality rifle, I test out the red dots and add one if it works for me.

I have the same scope on my DDM4V11 lw. I am 65 and it works for me. I needed the 4x Firedot when I shota doe at 100 yrds at dusk.

[JCS]

I may just hold off on the flashlight until I get some range time on it because I honestly don't know if I should use a pressure switch or not or which position to mount it to. I'll have to see what position will work best with my hand position I guess.

[jc000]

I've handled a 6720 and agree – it's a great no frills option for a general purpose carbine.

The problem is that they don't seem to exist in the wild anywhere. Where are you guys finding them?

[blues]

I may just hold off on the flashlight until I get some range time on it because I honestly don't know if I should use a pressure switch or not or which position to mount it to. I'll have to see what position will work best with my hand position I guess.

I think that's a good decision. I have mine mounted at 3 o'clock. I'm right handed. This allows me to manipulate the switch with my left hand while forward on the handguard. This was the same position we had our lights on SRT.

It has some advantages in this position, imho...

...Your head is not right behind the light.

Better peripheral (and field of) vision is maintained.

Less undesired reflection.

Less chance of getting the light snagged with your sling.

There are others but my head is a bit less than tack sharp from the antibiotics I've been taking after getting both hands stitched up this past weekend. (I'm not much for meds so at least I haven't opened the Vicodin they sent me home with.)

https://s4.postimg.org/xm6ylbyil/Full_Size_Render_5.jpg)

[Lex Luthier]

I've handled a 6720 and agree – it's a great no frills option for a general purpose carbine.

The problem is that they don't seem to exist in the wild anywhere. Where are you guys finding them?

Check your pms, jc000.

[JCS]

I've handled a 6720 and agree – it's a great no frills option for a general purpose carbine.

The problem is that they don't seem to exist in the wild anywhere. Where are you guys finding them?

Gandrtactical has em in stock now. I looked into a Colt oem but couldn't ever find them in stock

[jc000]

Gandrtactical has em in stock now. I looked into a Colt oem but couldn't ever find them in stock

oops nevermind, must have just came in!

[John Hearne]

I just found this at Primary Arms. Seems like a really good deal on a well-setup, entry level AR for $999.00:

http://cdnll.primaryarms.com/images/s/APCR600306_1.jpg

http://www.primaryarms.com/apcr600306/p/apcr600306/

[JCS]

That looks like a really good deal.

My rifle arrived at the ffl today! Sadly it'll be a few days before I take possession of it. I'm trying to find someone to borrow a vice block for the upper receiver so I can install the rail. A guy I work with thinks his buddy will let me borrow his.

Hopefully installing the rail and gas block goes well.

[JCS]

Picked up the ar today http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161017/3569f97646376bb93426ff8cafc5f65c.jpg

Installing the stock was easy. I'm a little more nervous about putting on the rail and removing/installing the gas block.

[JCS]

Quick update. My ar inspired from this thread and your guys advice is finished.

I picked up the bcm oem lw recce and installed the following:
Bcm gunfighter stock
Geissele mk8 mlok rail
Magpul mbus sights
Vickers sling
Aimpoint pro
Inforce wml 2
A bunch of mags and a case of ammo

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161204/f134faeae59dd60509eaffaaa31a4f10.jpg

Thanks everyone for the advice. I look forward to shooting this and learning the platform. I'm thankful for the knowledge on this forum.

[Jay Cunningham]

Very solid.

[Kyle Reese]

Very solid setup. Everything you need, nothing you don't.

[PearTree]

Sweet setup! Now go shoot the crap out of it.

[JCS]

Very solid setup. Everything you need, nothing you don't.

That was my goal. I could've added a different trigger and a muzzle device but I wanted to learn on the stock/basic ones. If I can't shoot good with an a2 and stock trigger I'm in trouble.

[BillSWPA]

Very nice rifle!


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[NH Shooter]

Nice!

Is that a BCM lightweight BFH upper with 1/7 twist? Mine shoots Speer 75 grain Gold Dots really well.

Good luck with it!

[JCS]

Nice!

Is that a BCM lightweight BFH upper with 1/7 twist? Mine shoots Speer 75 grain Gold Dots really well.

Good luck with it!

Yes it is a 1/7 twist. Your posts reminds me that I need to research a good round to use. I'm sure there are some really good threads on here featuring DocGKR. Are Speer gold dots widely accepted as a "duty" round in rifles?

[NH Shooter]

Are Speer gold dots widely accepted as a "duty" round in rifles?

Yes, the Gold Dots (GDs) in their various weights are bonded soft points offering expansion, reliable penetration and good barrier performance (such as against windshield glass). The 75 grain version is their latest offering and seems to be getting great reports like the other GD rounds. Out of my 1/7 twist carbine they are 1.5 MOA precise (if not better) so this is my go-to round in my AR. Note - I use a Glock 17 with an Inforce APL as my primary HD weapon.

The other well-accepted (fragmenting, not "barrier blind") round for HD is anything that uses the 77 grain Sierra OTM bullet, such as these (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1339912049/black-hills-ammunition-556x45mm-nato-77-grain-sierra-matchking-hollow-point). For inside the house, these are probably the best bet as they are less likely to over penetrate but have adequate penetration in gelatin. They're really accurate in a 1/7 twist barrel too.

[blues]

Keep an eye on Palmetto State Armory for excellent prices and free shipping deals on Speer Gold Dots in 55 gr and up bullet weights. I have purchased both 55 and 64 gr versions from them over the past several months.

[ASH556]

Yes, the Gold Dots (GDs) in their various weights are bonded soft points offering expansion, reliable penetration and good barrier performance (such as against windshield glass). The 75 grain version is their latest offering and seems to be getting great reports like the other GD rounds. Out of my 1/7 twist carbine they are 1.5 MOA precise (if not better) so this is my go-to round in my AR. Note - I use a Glock 17 with an Inforce APL as my primary HD weapon.

The other well-accepted (fragmenting, not "barrier blind") round for HD is anything that uses the 77 grain Sierra OTM bullet, such as these (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1339912049/black-hills-ammunition-556x45mm-nato-77-grain-sierra-matchking-hollow-point). For inside the house, these are probably the best bet as they are less likely to over penetrate but have adequate penetration in gelatin. They're really accurate in a 1/7 twist barrel too.

Just to add data: 62 gr Gold Dots at 100 ys benched from a 1/7 Colt 14.5" SOCOM with a Trijicon Accupower on 4X. The orange dot is 1.5".

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/FE2C4DD6-B92B-4ED6-89AB-65458FD68BFC.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/ASH556/media/FE2C4DD6-B92B-4ED6-89AB-65458FD68BFC.jpg.html)

[Beat Trash]

That was my goal. I could've added a different trigger and a muzzle device but I wanted to learn on the stock/basic ones. If I can't shoot good with an a2 and stock trigger I'm in trouble.

Before you change out the factory trigger, look up the video from Geissele on how to install the SSA trigger. Specifically, look at the part of the video where he talks about how to properly lube an AR trigger. You'd be surprised how much improvement you will see with just a small dab of grease and/or oil in the right spot on your BCM trigger. Same goes with my son's factory Colt 6920 trigger. With that said, I use Geissele SSA triggers in all of my work and personal guns. But I agree with you're concept of learning on the stock trigger on your gun.

Excellent setup on your gun.

[MistWolf]

I installed my first G trigger, an SSA-E in my precision AR. I've also installed an SSA in an MP-10. With it's heavier 4.5 lbs break I think is a better choice for a general purpose rifle. The SSA-E has, If I recall, about a 3.5 lbs break. If it were offered with a 4.5 - 5.5 lbs break, I think the SSA-E would make an ideal GP rifle trigger. I wrote the following when I installed the SSA-E trigger. Installing the SSA, SSA-E and standard triggers is the same.

The SSA-E trigger group came as two sub-assemblies, trigger and hammer, along with a slave pin and a small tube of grease (pin & grease not pictured). Prior to installation, lube according to instructions. A lubed Geiselle trigger, or any AR trigger, is much smoother than a dry one.
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Build/ARP01.jpg

The lower had no trigger previously installed so no dis-assembly was required.

The trigger sub-assembly of the SSA-E comes with the trigger pin installed. The slave pin is used to temporarily replace the trigger pin and hold the disconnecter in place during installation.
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Build/ARP02.jpg

Push the trigger pin out with the slave pin
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Build/ARP03.jpg

until the slave pin fits evenly on both sides of the trigger sub-assembly. Note the trigger and hammer pins have two grooves cut in them, one in the middle and one near the end. The on in the middle is for the "J" spring to lock the hammer pin in place. The groove at the end is for the legs of the hammer spring to rest on and locks the trigger pin in place.
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Build/ARP05.jpg

Turn the selector switch to the FIRE position. Carefully place the trigger sub-assembly in the trigger housing of the lower receiver. Tip it so the tail slips under the selector drum. Make sure the legs of the springs point forward and rest on the receiver on either side of the trigger cut-out.
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Build/ARP06.jpg

Press the trigger sub-assembly down until the slave pin lines up with the trigger pin hole.
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Build/ARP07.jpg

Carefully push the trigger pin into place. It will push the slave pin out the other side. The pin can be pushed in from either side of the receiver. The pin should slide into place with just finger pressure. (If a slave pin isn't available, use a pin punch from the the other side to line everything up. If a punch isn't available, use patience and nimble fingers. Better yet, take the time to make a slave pin.)
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Build/ARP08.jpg

Next, install the hammer. The hammer comes with the hammer pin already installed and is held in by internal spring- the "J" spring. The pin must be removed prior to installing the hammer. Simply press it out with a punch or something similar, using hand pressure. The slave pin is not used to install the hammer.

Carefully slide the hammer into place, ensuring that both legs of the hammer spring will rest on top of the trigger pin. Press the hammer down until its pin hole lines up with the pin hole in the lower receiver.
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Build/ARP09.jpg

Make sure the hammer pin starts in the hammer pin hole. The hammer spring will make this task a little more challenging than installing the trigger sub-assembly but with a little patience it's not difficult. An alignment tool, such as a pin punch or Allen key may be of help. Once the pin is started, you may need to tap it lightly with a small hammer and a brass punch. Tap the pin into place only until it's seated in the hammer pin hole. Do not try driving the hammer pin all the way through!
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Build/ARP10.jpg

Pressure from the hammer spring will keep the pin from aligning with the pin hole on the opposite side of the receiver. Flip the receiver, grasp the hammer and line up the holes. Once aligned, the pin should press into place by finger pressure.

NOTE: If the end of the pin is pressed against the inside of the receiver, it will cause binding and prevent the hammer pin holes from lining up. Make sure the pin isn't causing binding.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Build/ARP11.jpg

This is what the pins will look like once everything is in place
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Build/ARP12.jpg

Here is what the Geisselle SSA-E trigger looks like installed!
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Build/ARP13.jpg

Once finished, assemble the upper to the lower and test for proper functioning according to the Geissele instructions. CAUTION: DO NOT DRY FIRE ON AN UNASSEMBLED LOWER! The hammer striking the lower will cause damage.

Installation of the Geiselle SSA-E was a breeze. It was accomplished in less than an hour (including taking the above photos) at a leisurely pace with nothing more than a small hammer and a punch. Don't forget to lube the parts before installation or you'll need to remove the trigger & hammer and start over

[DocGKR]

For a "Home Defense" rifle, a Colt 6720 or 6920 is about perfect. Just add an Aimpoint, simple bright light, basic 2-point sling, and some good mags. I'd likely keep the factory trigger on such a rifle.

[rob_s]

For a "Home Defense" rifle, a Colt 6720 or 6920 is about perfect. Just add an Aimpoint, simple bright light, basic 2-point sling, and some good mags. I'd likely keep the factory trigger on such a rifle.

I agree.

there are three points where I struggle with that advice, and both ultimately come down to the handguard. The three points are
(1) support hand placement limitations
(2) light mounting options
(3) forward sling-mount options

All, obviously, can be overcome to one degree or another, but I'd feel an awful lot better if it came out of the box in a way that addressed them. The Colt Combat unit Carbine addresses this to some degree, but the near $400 increase for a meh lengthened gas tube isn't really worthwhile. that's a lot to pay for a $200 handguard and 2" of gas tube.

[MistWolf]

The trigger on my Colt is one of the better standard AR triggers. It was a bit notchy, but application of lube fixed most of that. I think it will improve more as I shoot it

[JCS]

Yes, the Gold Dots (GDs) in their various weights are bonded soft points offering expansion, reliable penetration and good barrier performance (such as against windshield glass). The 75 grain version is their latest offering and seems to be getting great reports like the other GD rounds. Out of my 1/7 twist carbine they are 1.5 MOA precise (if not better) so this is my go-to round in my AR. Note - I use a Glock 17 with an Inforce APL as my primary HD weapon.

The other well-accepted (fragmenting, not "barrier blind") round for HD is anything that uses the 77 grain Sierra OTM bullet, such as these (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1339912049/black-hills-ammunition-556x45mm-nato-77-grain-sierra-matchking-hollow-point). For inside the house, these are probably the best bet as they are less likely to over penetrate but have adequate penetration in gelatin. They're really accurate in a 1/7 twist barrel too.

Thanks for the great advice on ammunition. I will start with these and test them to see how my gun likes them. My gun will shoot much better than I can even dream of but I will still try and get some groups.

I tried to find a Colt 6920 and it was really my first choice. At the time I purchased, a couple months ago, ar's were in high demand because it was looking inevitable that Hillary would get elected. I couldn't find a Colt in stock for a good price.

In the end I'm glad I went with the bcm. I have really long arms and having a full rail feels more natural. This was a buy once cry once purchase (my Christmas and bday gift). I think had I went with a Colt I would've wished later on I had a full length rail.

[PearTree]

I agree.

there are three points where I struggle with that advice, and both ultimately come down to the handguard. The three points are
(1) support hand placement limitations
(2) light mounting options
(3) forward sling-mount options

All, obviously, can be overcome to one degree or another, but I'd feel an awful lot better if it came out of the box in a way that addressed them. The Colt Combat unit Carbine addresses this to some degree, but the near $400 increase for a meh lengthened gas tube isn't really worthwhile. that's a lot to pay for a $200 handguard and 2" of gas tube.
Where is the $400 difference coming from? A 6920 magpul MSRP is $1099 and the 6960(CCU) is MSRP $1299. And add to the fact the cmr rail has built in QD attachment points, so no need to buy the hardware. I'd say $200 to address all three of your gripes with the 6920 would be worth it.

And this option is from the factory so no frankstein parts gun.

OP sorry for the thread drift.

[rob_s]

Where is the $400 difference coming from? A 6920 magpul MSRP is $1099 and the 6960(CCU) is MSRP $1299. And add to the fact the cmr rail has built in QD attachment points, so no need to buy the hardware. I'd say $200 to address all three of your gripes with the 6920 would be worth it.

And this option is from the factory so no frankstein parts gun.

OP sorry for the thread drift.

The difference is that you can get a 6920/6720 for far lower than MSRP (example (http://www.gunbroker.com/item/604044934)) but the CCU is single-source and unlikely to sell for much, if any, lower than the MSRP. The CCU should only be a $200 premium, I agree with you. When it sells for $1000 I'd recommend it, and likely even buy one.

[Aray]

IWC Mount N Slot QD and light mounts makes stock handguards very viable.

[rob_s]

IWC Mount N Slot QD and light mounts makes stock handguards very viable.

I don't really agree, but I get what you're saying. "Viable" is a sliding scale, and if you trend towards the low end of viable to mean "marginally acceptable" then you're correct.

I still don't understand why it's so hard to get a $1k (retail) quality AR with a free-floated ~10-12" handguard from the factory and readily available in retail stores.

[hiro]

I don't really agree, but I get what you're saying. "Viable" is a sliding scale, and if you trend towards the low end of viable to mean "marginally acceptable" then you're correct.

I still don't understand why it's so hard to get a $1k (retail) quality AR with a free-floated ~10-12" handguard from the factory and readily available in retail stores.

I have a feeling that $1k falls between two schools of thought on AR purchasing.

There's the people that want to spend less cos they're cheap and don't understand what it takes to make a decent rifle (and won't shoot it enough to notice the difference) and there are the people who are happy to spend more because they get the latest flavour of hand guard, trigger, stock, sling, name whatever attachment you care. none of which really matters for most people but who are retailers to tell them that when they're in business?

A third school is what you're suggesting, how many times does this thread come up? How many times do people actually take the advice? People don't want to buy the generic out of the box AR and the market has exploded to sell them every option under the sun and a few more.

[hiro]

How does Aero Precision fit into the Great AR Scheme of Things?

Brownells has them at $530 without stock or handguard.

How do they compare to Colt, BCM, DD etc?

(And no, I don't own one nor am I looking to buy one, just yet)

[rob_s]

I have a feeling that $1k falls between two schools of thought on AR purchasing.

There's the people that want to spend less cos they're cheap and don't understand what it takes to make a decent rifle (and won't shoot it enough to notice the difference) and there are the people who are happy to spend more because they get the latest flavour of hand guard, trigger, stock, sling, name whatever attachment you care. none of which really matters for most people but who are retailers to tell them that when they're in business?

A third school is what you're suggesting, how many times does this thread come up? How many times do people actually take the advice? People don't want to buy the generic out of the box AR and the market has exploded to sell them every option under the sun and a few more.

Sounds about right.

I had high hopes for the CCU. Problem is the sole-source issue which eliminates competitive pricing. It's a great $1k gun, I'm just not convinced it's worth $200-300 more.

I also think there's a sweet spot missed for the new buyer that asks us "I want to get an AR and I have $1k to spend". Part of the reason they wind up with the doo-dad guns is that when you tell them to go get a 6720 they feel like they are buying their grandad's AR. Even the guy that's spent the most amount of time convincing himself of his "need", what he's really looking for is the cool guy factor and he doesn't want to show off his new gun to his golf buddies and when they are unimpressed say "what? this is what the nerds on the internet told me to buy!"

[rob_s]

If the person was willing to do a little bit of bolting on and mail-ordering I think this is still where I'd be

Colt LE6920 OEM2 - $750 (http://www.armsunlimited.com/Colt-OEM-AR15-M4-556mm-Rifle-No-Furniture-p/le6920-oem2.htm)
Centurion Arms CMR M-LOK - $195 (http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?groupid=7030&name=Centurion+Arms+CMR+M-LOK+Rail+System)
Magpul MOE SL Carbine Stock - $57 (http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=XMAG347Blk&name=Magpul+MOE+SL+Carbine+Stock+Black&search=moe+sl)
Magpul MOE® SL™ Grip - $19 (http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=XMAG539BLK&name=Magpul+MOE%C2%AE+SL%E2%84%A2+Grip+Black&search=moe+sl)
Magpul MOE® Trigger Guard - $9 (http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=XMAG417Blk&name=Magpul+MOE%C2%AE+Trigger+Guard%2c+Polymer+%E2 %80%93+AR15%2fM4+-+Black&search=magpul+trigger+guard)

goes a hair over the $1k mark at $1030 and can't be just bought over the counter at the local gunshop, but it gives me hope that some enterprising retailer might figure out a way to assemble the complete guns themselves and sell them over the counter.

And confirms, in my mind, that the CCU is a $1k gun.

[JCS]

I'm surprised their aren't more manufacturers offering the oem options.

[hiro]

when they are unimpressed say "what? this is what the nerds on the internet told me to buy!"

Pretty much the response I got from my friends when they saw the Magpul handguard. I'm not mounting a laser, the flashlight went on fine with a couple of extra holes drilled for an IWC mount and the M Lok sling mounts are where I want them. Definitely didn't pass the cool guy test tho. Ah well... :rolleyes:

[John Hearne]

How does Aero Precision fit into the Great AR Scheme of Things? Brownells has them at $530 without stock or handguard. How do they compare to Colt, BCM, DD etc? (And no, I don't own one nor am I looking to buy one, just yet)

Personally, they are really, really tempting, especially for an entry level gun. I still haven't heard how they've attached the gas block and I'd like to see the staking on the gas key and castle nut but all the other numbers look good.

If you buy me one, I'll offer an armorer's assessment for free. :)

[hiro]

Personally, they are really, really tempting, especially for an entry level gun. I still haven't heard how they've attached the gas block and I'd like to see the staking on the gas key and castle nut but all the other numbers look good.

If you buy me one, I'll offer an armorer's assessment for free. :)

:)

A friend bought one a few weeks back prior to the election (fearing the worse). I'll ask him to check and post back here.

[TR675]

Personally, they are really, really tempting, especially for an entry level gun. I still haven't heard how they've attached the gas block and I'd like to see the staking on the gas key and castle nut but all the other numbers look good.

If you buy me one, I'll offer an armorer's assessment for free. :)

I have a homebuilt 300BLK SBR with all Aero and Ballistic Advantage parts (other than a wonky PDW stock). If I remember when I get home I'll try to post a pic of the gas key staking.

Since I built it myself, I can't comment on their factory gas block attachment method, but mine (ordered from BA with the barrel) has two set screws; I opted as well to have them drill it for a pin. The pin they sent is just a roll pin, not very snug, but it's under a rail so I guess I don't care.

[rob_s]

How does Aero Precision fit into the Great AR Scheme of Things?

Brownells has them at $530 without stock or handguard.

How do they compare to Colt, BCM, DD etc?

(And no, I don't own one nor am I looking to buy one, just yet)

Epic AP thread, make of it what you will
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?183047-Current-Aero-Precision-Quality

[hiro]

Thanks for the link. It's been a while since I read M4C, most of the names don't mean much to me so I skimmed most posts. Jim D and Iraqguns were the only ones I remembered and they posted mixed results. If I can get them I'll post pics of their staking.

[hiro]

12223
12224
Aero OEM rifle bought from Brownells.

[hiro]

Thanks for that Tom. I was about to post pics of my BCM as comparison.

(Hopefully I've managed to do that after editing this 3 times, more coffee please!)

[Jay Cunningham]

Thanks for that Tom, here are pics of my BCM as compariso

The staking on the end plate is just adequate but the staking on the carrier key is inadequate.

I'm a little surprised BCM put that one out the door, but it happens.

[hiro]

Apologies, I was posting from my phone and goofed... hopefully we are now good to go

[Jay Cunningham]

The BCM pics look good.

[hiro]

I'm told the gas block is pinned but I don't have any details.

[ASH556]

Those are the wrong screws on the Aero gas key in addition to the poor staking.

I blows my mind that in 2016, after "the chart" and with all the other knowledge that exists about how to properly assembly an AR, manufacturers still can't or won't get it right. On the other hand, that helps pay my bills, so, whatever.

[Rex G]

Light weight is good for an HD long weapon, as the support hand will be so likely to have other things to do. My ailing support-side rotator cuff is another reason, for my personal situation. I have nothing hanging out front, on my BCM Lightweight Middy upper, except a short bit of rail for an X300-series light on the Magpul handguards.

Nothing against a shotgun, and I really like my 870P, but when I tweaked my rotator cuff last week, I would have been unable to do much with the 870P for a couple of days.

[TR675]

Dec. 2015 production (approx.) Aero Precision 5.56/.300 Blk carrier staking. No bueno.

12475

[Jay Cunningham]

Dec. 2015 production (approx.) Aero Precision 5.56/.300 Blk carrier staking. No bueno.

12475

Yeah that's fucking lame.

[MistWolf]

Can you explain why that staking is "no bueno"?

[TR675]

Compare it to the staking in post 141. The AP staking just barely kisses the screw. The Colt staking actually deforms the screw. One is more secure than the other.

Will it make a difference? Not to me on a fun gun.

Would it make a difference if an army or agency was fielding 10,000 rifles? More likely.

For a consumer, more than anything I would say that getting the little things like staking done right shows that the more important things that the consumer might not be able to see were also done right. None of that may be important to the consumer, or all of it might. YMMV.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MistWolf]

If the head is deformed from over staking, the head is damaged and weakened. Staking should not deform the head

[TR675]

I'm not an engineer or a staking guru. All I know is the company that owns the TDP does it one way and Aero does it another. But if you have other thoughts let's hear them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MistWolf]

You don't have to be an engineer or a staking guru to realize that damaging the head of a bolt is not desirable. A deformed head doesn't sit flat on the surface and means the bolt is weakened and possibly fractured where the head meets the shank. If the gas key bolts shear, you've got problems.

I just check the gas key of my Colt and as I expected, it's staked without damaging the bolt heads. You can bet that damaging the bolt heads isn't part of the TDP.

If interested in learning more about staking, I've started another thread on the subject. Here's the link- https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?23532-Staking&p=539941#post539941

To keep from derailing this thread any further, please direct any questions, comments and criticisms there

[JCS]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161224/a1a09b44fd1920a9faa8a38dc37e2b0b.jpg is this good or bad?

[ASH556]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161224/a1a09b44fd1920a9faa8a38dc37e2b0b.jpg is this good or bad?

Good! Correct bolts and from the view you show, key metal appears to be amply pressed against the OD of the bolt heads.

I really ought to go take some pics of my 4 2016 production Colt bolts for reference, but they pretty much look just like that.