Any fans of the pistol Aimed Point & Shoot technique?

[NevadaBob]

Just came across some internet info on the subject. Hoping to get out to the range tomorrow to try my luck with it. Anyone use this technique?

[Chris Rhines]

No. No one uses this "technique."

[texasaggie2005]

No. No one uses this "technique."

/thread

[gtmtnbiker98]

Please say no to the Derp!

[Failure2Stop]

No. No one good uses this "technique."

Fixed that.

Unconsciously incompetent folks do all kinds of suboptimal stuff.

[Peally]

I point, aim, and shoot every time I use my pistol :D

[Chris Rhines]

Fixed that.

Unconsciously incompetent folks do all kinds of suboptimal stuff.
Going to the judges... and, we'll allow it. We would also have accepted, "...with a brain," as a correct answer. :D

[45dotACP]

Just came across some internet info on the subject. Hoping to get out to the range tomorrow to try my luck with it. Anyone use this technique?
Don't use the internet to teach you to shoot...there's a solid chance you'll end up with point shooting a Springfield XD in a Serpa attending your first class at Front Sight...this is all a sign that somewhere, somehow...you fucked up.

[RJ]

Only if you wear a bicycle helmet and twirl artfully.

8989

[okie john]

Just came across some internet info on the subject. Hoping to get out to the range tomorrow to try my luck with it. Anyone use this technique?

Luck is the key word here.


Okie John

[Casual Friday]

Nevermind

[warpedcamshaft]

Outside of ECQC-context situations/training, the only other time I use point shooting is when I'm taking a leak.

[Malamute]

Nevbob may take the responses as an unlearned biased attack on an untried method, but this isn't anything new. When this stuff has come up before and point shooting adherents are asked for drill times/scores, to show videos of their technique on standard drills, or to shoot side by side against decent aimed shooters, it seems to get quiet.

I seem to recall a comment from one of the participants of a conference where point shooting was being professed as a sideline technique. The results of seeing the point shooters perform was the comment "his guys cant hit shit".

The factor I keep not seeing is that the oft repeated statement of "you don't have time to aim" should be "you dont have time to miss".

[Peally]

That looks like a super dee dooper drawback filled crutch for having a poorly developed index IMO.

[JohnO]

Sights are not a design flaw. They were put there for a reason. Use your signts!

[Luke]

That's the technique I use. Sometimes on a hard target that I really want to establish dominance I'll point my index and middle finger at the target and pull the trigger with my ring finger.

[Clusterfrack]

Just so that people are clear on what the OP is referring to, the Point & Shoot technique isn't the same as "point shooting". It's a "technique" where you keep your index finger along the frame of your pistol and use it to point at you target (with index finger still extended along the frame of the pistol) and then pull the trigger with your middle finger.

8991

And to echo all the previous posters, no, no one (or hopefully no one here, unless they are missing a couple phalanges of their index finger) uses that technique.

Wow. WTF will people think of next?

I actually did shoot most of a multigun match with my middle finger when I injured my trigger finger. It was not an advantage :-) but I ended up placing fairly well.

[Clusterfrack]

That's the technique I use. Sometimes on a hard target that I really want to establish dominance I'll point my index and middle finger at the target and pull the trigger with my ring finger.

I prefer to point my middle finger at the target and yell "Fuck You!" while I shoot.

[Luke]

I prefer to point my middle finger at the target and yell "Fuck You!" while I shoot.

Your so violent. I love it.

[BehindBlueI's]

Wow. WTF will people think of next?


This dates back to at least the late 80s or early 90s. Probably even further. The idea is that you naturally point at something when you point with your index finger so your gun will magically line up if you adopt this janky grip. Of course, even were that to be true (and I make no claims either way) pointing the gun at something is only half the battle. Keeping it pointed at the something through the trigger pull is the real trick. :D

[Luke]

What does it say of me that I can't naturally point my finger at anything but I can draw to a light switch at 10 yards with my eyes closed?

[Malamute]

Just so that people are clear on what the OP is referring to, the Point & Shoot technique isn't the same as "point shooting". It's a "technique" where you keep your index finger along the frame of your pistol and use it to point at you target (with index finger still extended along the frame of the pistol) and then pull the trigger with your middle finger.

8991

And to echo all the previous posters, no, no one (or hopefully no one here, unless they are missing a couple phalanges of their index finger) uses that technique.

There was a small pamphlet printed in the mid-ish 1900s giving tips to the greenhorns out on the plains of the west. This idea was floated then as the answer to fast and accurate revolver shooting without needing the common shooting technique of using the usual trigger finger.

I looked up a site about this before I posted earlier, the same pic Tom posted was there. I think this is a variation on the general theme of point shooting. It was also full of links to the QK and pistol QK (don't we know a guy...?), as well as the older references from way back in the day that point shooting was thought pretty fast company and top form by some. I quite agree some fairly good shooting can be done with such methods, particularly if one practices a LOT (and most of us will never be a Bill Jordan or Bob Munden). We also have many examples of people being so trained and performing poorly. I wont stand in the way of anyone wanting to practice different ideas, but if it isn't truly a proven advantage compared to other known and used techniques, it should be considered a fun exercise. I had tons of fun shooting tens of thousands of rounds over the years messing with it, but I realized that in any actual use of hunting or making an important shot, I always got at least a flash sight picture if not good sight picture. It takes less time to make the first shot with more deliberate fire than to try to catch up after missing the first one. This thing used a flash sight picture, but the finger thing is goofy. Its also not going to give as good of a grip on the gun for stabilizing during a shot or recoil control for follow-up shots. If someone can show side by side vids with times showing a clear advantage in time and accuracy, it would be worth looking at.

[Paul Sharp]

It's the proven Jack Ruby method!

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160708/3c20a3236acb15fb1e14b149134dc842.png

As an enthusiast, and amateur history buff I like to dig into the background of the what's, how's, and why's of all this stuff I like to do. From what I've been able to find, the use of the index finger to point the gun, while using the middle finger to press the trigger has been attributed to everyone from the Israeli's, to the OSS, to guys in the 1700-1800s on the western frontier of the USA. I really didn't look into it too much as it seemed to be a lowest of the low common denominator type thing. I have seen pictures of guys shooting revolvers such as the one of Jack Ruby shooting Oswald, and often wondered how they got around the gases tearing up the tip of their index finger? Other than that issue, and the historical angle, that's the extent of any interest I ever had.

[Joe in PNG]

Regarding Ruby, he was missing a good part of his trigger finger, so...

[sharps54]

I bought a Keltec P32 a decade ago and found that with that particular pistol I was more accurate with the technique in question. That said I don't remember if I ever shot it past 5 or 7 yards. I believe a big part of it working with that particular pistol involved the horrible sights and super small grip, this technique actually allowed me to get a decent hold on the little fellow. I did not want to have one pistol that used a radically different hold, I think I was carrying a Glock 19 or 23 at the time, so I put the Keltec up.

I think if you only ever used a tiny mouse gun this technique might have some application but if you are using larger weapons or weapons with sights I would stick with the standard, established holds.

[Joe in PNG]

I think if you only ever used a tiny mouse gun this technique might have some application but if you are using larger weapons or weapons with sights I would stick with the standard, established holds.

That's the only way I could shoot one of those micro NAA 22LR pistols. Which is why I don't carry one. If I wanted a micro gun, I can shoot a Baby Browning fairly well... but I don't carry one of those either.

[sharps54]

That's the only way I could shoot one of those micro NAA 22LR pistols. Which is why I don't carry one. If I wanted a micro gun, I can shoot a Baby Browning fairly well... but I don't carry one of those either.

I should specify that I still brought the pistol up to eye level and "aimed" along top the slide.

[Joe in PNG]

I should specify that I still brought the pistol up to eye level and "aimed" along top the slide.
Ditto. I then realized I was foolishly wasting time and .22lr ammo on that thing when there was a S&W 617 6" I could be shooting instead.

[45dotACP]

It's the proven Jack Ruby method!

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160708/3c20a3236acb15fb1e14b149134dc842.png


I feel like there should be a "caption this pic" for Oswald....I'll start

"Oh that stung you stupid betch!"

[Ed L]

There is a certain person on the internet that was incorrectly instructed to use his middle finger to pull the trigger of an M3 SMG in the 1950s and then began advocating it in the 2000s. It makes as much sense as sitting on the toilet backwards because some aborigine did so the first time he saw a flush toilet so therefore it must be more natural.

[NevadaBob]

Thanks for the responses...just got home from work...I appreciate the lively discussion.

[Paul Sharp]

I feel like there should be a "caption this pic" for Oswald....I'll start

"Oh that stung you stupid betch!"

"Stop playing around Jack, that tickles!"

[Malamute]

Thanks for the responses...just got home from work...I appreciate the lively discussion.

I nominate Bob for Good Sport of the Week.

:)

[hiro]

Just so that people are clear on what the OP is referring to, the Point & Shoot technique isn't the same as "point shooting". It's a "technique" where you keep your index finger along the frame of your pistol and use it to point at you target (with index finger still extended along the frame of the pistol) and then pull the trigger with your middle finger.

8991

And to echo all the previous posters, no, no one (or hopefully no one here, unless they are missing a couple phalanges of their index finger) uses that technique.

Well, it does maximize a high grip so it might not be all bad...

Should one expect contact with the slide and the base of one's thumb?

/sarcasm

[NevadaBob]

Malamute...I'd be honored!

hiro...maybe something to keep in mind as one goes through some shooting drills.

Was planning to head out to the range this morning (a BLM spot out in the desert) but the wind is blustery and there's a high fire danger warning. If the wind diminishes I'll head out. My findings will be in one of 3 categories: Eureka!.....The Jury Is Still Out......This Sucks!!!

[Tamara]

There is a certain person who was the bane of the internet...

FIFY

[nwhpfan]

Just some that people are clear on what the OP is referring to, the Point & Shoot technique isn't the same as "point shooting". It's a "technique" where you keep your index finger along the frame of your pistol and use it to point at you target (with index finger still extended along the frame of the pistol) and then pull the trigger with your middle finger.

8991


And to echo all the previous posters, no, no one (or hopefully no one here, unless they are missing a couple phalanges of their index finger) uses that technique.

Wow, thanks for the picture. I guess I have seen so many "new" things become the better thing I tend not to dismiss anything until I've seen or tried it. I read in a book once Rob Leatham telling people he didn't use his sights for certain targets. Wow, he actually is among greatest technical shooters in the world so people listened - right.

I get the concept. If you are pointing at your target with your pointer finger, your pistol is pretty much aligned - or there most of the way.

But taking your good finger out of the equation seems a real downfall. Teaching two fingers and your mind to be good at stroking the trigger would be a huge undertaking.

I think the better option is "indexing." Simply learn to put the gun on target, or as close to it first time. I used to image there was a magnet on the target that drew the barrel right to it.

[NevadaBob]

Went out to the range earlier. I'm intrigued by the index/middle finger placement. I used front site placement as opposed to no sites. My rating scale (refer to my last post) was this experience was either going to be: Eureka!...The Jury Is Out....or This Sucks!. The meter registers between Eureka! and The Jury Is Out. I believe my modified version has merit and will experiment some more. Today I was shooting a Taurus Millenium G2 and Taurus PT-709. Both are 9's.

[Malamute]

Malamute...I'd be honored!

hiro...maybe something to keep in mind as one goes through some shooting drills.

Was planning to head out to the range this morning (a BLM spot out in the desert) but the wind is blustery and there's a high fire danger warning. If the wind diminishes I'll head out. My findings will be in one of 3 categories: Eureka!.....The Jury Is Still Out......This Sucks!!!

Keep in mind if trying this, if using a revolver, having your trigger finger (index finger) laying alongside the frame may result in flash burns from the barrel/cylinder gap if your finger gets in front of the cylinder face. May be unpleasant.

[JAD]

While it's not my favorite in some ways, the FAST would be a really good way to compare this technique with what you normally do.

[45dotACP]

I might also suggest an el presidente...mostly because it requires raw speed, fast transitions, and effective gun handling...plus you can judge the difference in accuracy and determine whether you get good hits or not.

[Paul Sharp]

Regarding Ruby, he was missing a good part of his trigger finger, so...

In every thread I've ever read on P&S dating back to GlockTalk in the 90s, Ruby is the guy the P&S people like to use as a real world example of this being a viable technique. So... that's why I posted the pic, and referred to it, (sarcastically since I doubt Ruby taught this...), as the Jack Ruby technique since it usually comes up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ed L]

In every thread I've ever read on P&S dating back to GlockTalk in the 90s, Ruby is the guy the P&S people like to use as a real world example of this being a viable technique. So... that's why I posted the pic, and referred to it, (sarcastically since I doubt Ruby taught this...), as the Jack Ruby technique since it usually comes up.

Didn't Jack Ruby have part of his trigger finger missing or something like that?

[Ed L]

Went out to the range earlier. I'm intrigued by the index/middle finger placement. I used front site placement as opposed to no sites. My rating scale (refer to my last post) was this experience was either going to be: Eureka!...The Jury Is Out....or This Sucks!. The meter registers between Eureka! and The Jury Is Out. I believe my modified version has merit and will experiment some more. Today I was shooting a Taurus Millenium G2 and Taurus PT-709. Both are 9's.

I am not sure if I am reading your post correctly.

Are you saying that you prefer pulling the trigger with your middle finger?

[Paul Sharp]

Didn't Jack Ruby have part of his trigger finger missing or something like that?


On his left hand, he lost it in a fight documented in this article.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160710/b9062f6b356f01b4e020e5f04ac0618f.png

You can also see the missing finger in this pic.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160710/f56390c18455a0d4c74dccd970c38106.png

Here's the pic I posted earlier showing Ruby working the trigger with the middle finger of his right hand. People bring that up frequently but to my knowledge there was nothing wrong with Ruby's right hand, and pics I've seen of his fingerprint card taken after his arrest for killing Oswald show nothing wrong with his right hand but list an amputation of his left index finger as the reason for no print taken of that finger.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160710/011de1ad381fdd34a62a88bd58207989.jpg

[Ed L]

Thanks, Paul for the explanation of which finger is missing.

Honesty, I can't make sense of the picture of Ruby shooting. It is not clear enough to me.

It appears that his middle finger open and below the trigger guard. What appears to be a trigger finger above the gun would seem to too long to be a finger.

Even if Ruby did use his middle finger to pull the trigger, that doesn't make it the most effective way to manipulate the trigger.

[Paul Sharp]

Thanks, Paul for the explanation of which finger is missing.

Honesty, I can't make sense of the picture of Ruby shooting. It is not clear enough to me.

It appears that his middle finger open and below the trigger guard. What appears to be a trigger finger above the gun would seem to too long to be a finger.

Even if Ruby did use his middle finger to pull the trigger, that doesn't make it the most effective way to manipulate the trigger.

Yeah man, it's really blurry if enlarged any greater than this. It looks like his middle finger is in the trigger guard and he's kinda doing that old school crouch. In pictures with a larger view you can see he's got his right foot pointed at the target with the revolver over his lead foot. Some folks say this means he was trained by the OSS guys as that was one of the methods used by those guys..., and down that rabbit hole we go into conspiracy land. HA!

Regarding the actual P&S technique. It's crap. As others have posted, and I wondered in my original post, I don't see how using this with a revolver would be anything but painful to the index finger. With an auto I found the index finger got in the way of the slide, with smaller pistols such as the G26? No thanks. Folks that advocate this method will say this is ideal for those compact size autos. Not in my experience.

Full disclosure, I'm a student of DR Middlebrows method of shooting called FistFire. DR is probably one of the best point shooters on the planet. (Here's a clip of DR and Barb shooting steel with sightless pistols; https://youtu.be/WOPOu8EL1mE?t=38s ). His method is based on learning to index, point, and shoot the pistol before you start to use the sights. It's the opposite of every other method I've ever trained in but it makes sense once you dive in. I've been given permission by DR to teach his method as part of what I do. I have also had extensive conversations with DR regarding every shooting technique I could think of, including P&S. As is usual with DR, when we were discussing that technique his response was, "Let's load up, and go run some steel. That's the only way to know." So we did, and it failed miserably. There are much better methods out there, I'm partial to FistFire, but I'm sure with a few weeks of effort on Ron Avery's S.A.F.E. protocol one could point shoot 10x more effectively than with the P&S method.

[Ed L]

Paul, I try to be a mellow dude, but when someone mentions middle finger trigger pulling or the P&S I go ballistic, kinda like the people in the Abbot & Costello skit when the Susquehanna Hat Company is mentioned.

All anyone needs to do is try it dryfire and compare using your middle finger to pull the trigger vs your trigger finger and realize that using the middle finger is ergonomically retarded.

[Paul Sharp]

Paul, I try to be a mellow dude, but when someone mentions middle finger trigger pulling or the P&S I go ballistic, kinda like the people in the Abbot & Costello skit when the Susquehanna Hat Company is mentioned.

All anyone needs to do is try it dryfire and compare using your middle finger to pull the trigger vs your trigger finger and realize that using the middle finger is ergonomically retarded.

I hear you dude, it's a miracle someone has taken the tip of their finger off trying this with a snub revolver.

[NevadaBob]

ed: Yes, middle finger.

Paul: Thanks for the info on FistFire.

[Ed L]

ed: Yes, middle finger.

Paul: Thanks for the info on FistFire.

Nevada Bob, Have you had any formal training classes or instruction.

A few points:

1. If you are so close that point shooting is appropriate, the gun's slide or barrel is what is used to point. You do not need to have your trigger finger along the gun to point it. The finger curled around the trigger does a fine enough job of pointing it because enough of the finger is pointed forward. The rest of the gun, be it the slide or the barrel (depending on the type of gun) becomes one large pointing finger as controlled by the hand.

2. When pulling the trigger with the middle finger, you do not have nearly as solid a grip or control of the gun since you only have two fingers on the grip. This is important in rapid firing and handling guns that have *any* type of recoil.

3. Using the middle finger is not ergonomic or natural while using the trigger finger is.

4. Keeping your pointing finger along the frame and pulling the trigger with your middle finger means that you must draw the gun with only your last two fingers. This is an extremely weak and fumble prone way to draw.

5. Holding the gun with two fingers curled around the grip is an extremely weak way to hold the trigger and to control recoil for follow-up shots.

6. If you need to hold someone at gunpoint, holding a gun with two fingers around the grip is a very weak way to do it.

7. Holding the gun with two fingers of the dominant hand on the grip does not integrate with a two handed hold.

Finally, as Paul Sharp pointer out, if you use your middle finger to pull the trigger of a snubnose revolver or small auto, you risk getting your pointer finger in the way of the muzzle or the muzzle blast.

[Tamara]

At some point you have to ask yourself "Self, have I really stumbled across some new way of doing things that all those various trophy-winners and face-shooters just don't know about? I mean, all these people who shoot guns for a living are doing it one way, but some random stranger on the internet is telling me to do it another way. Which is right?"

The lead intertubes promulgator of the P&S theory has been challenged to put up or shut up for years now. Never has. If you want to be his latest mark, knock yourself out. But if you're doing that, you're wasting your time on this forum.

[JohnO]

A busted clock has the correct time twice a day. A blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and then. Dynamite, grenades, horseshoes and thermonuclear devices all score when close. However if you absolutely need to accurately hit a specific target and missing is not an option then you must use your sights.

I see so many people that shoot and appear to be using their sights who can't hit crap. It is unimaginable to me how or why anyone would want to try and hit a target without using all the help available (sights). Is the Point & Shoot (AKA Instinctive Shooting) a progressive ruse being perpetrated on the shooting community? Just go with your FEELINGS. I FEEL my weapon is pointed at the target and that is all it takes. Good freaking luck!

[tanner]

... kinda like the people in the Abbot & Costello skit when the Susquehanna Hat Company is mentioned.

Thank you for that memory. Love that skit.

[olstyn]

What does it say of me that I can't naturally point my finger at anything but I can draw to a light switch at 10 yards with my eyes closed?

That we are similar in some ways? The nearest light switch from where I'm sitting is only ~3 yards away, but I shut my eyes, made a drawing motion that involved rotating my chair and body about 60 degrees clockwise, opened my eyes, and right between the tops of my strong hand thumb and forefinger was the light switch.

I can point at things, though. :)

[Ed L]

A busted clock has the correct time twice a day. A blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and then. Dynamite, grenades, horseshoes and thermonuclear devices all score when close. However if you absolutely need to accurately hit a specific target and missing is not an option then you must use your sights.

I see so many people that shoot and appear to be using their sights who can't hit crap. It is unimaginable to me how or why anyone would want to try and hit a target without using all the help available (sights). Is the Point & Shoot (AKA Instinctive Shooting) a progressive ruse being perpetrated on the shooting community? Just go with your FEELINGS. I FEEL my weapon is pointed at the target and that is all it takes. Good freaking luck!


We are talking about two separate things here that understandably get confused.

The P&S or point&shoot pointshooting involves using your middle finger to pull the trigger while laying your normal trigger finger along the barrel to point the gun. As I explained in my post, pulling the trigger with the middle finger is an ergonomic abortion.

Pointshooting itself is a whole different debate.

[Ed L]

Thank you for that memory. Love that skit.

When I posted that I wondered if anyone would remember it.

[5shot]

Shooting Aerials with P&S is "easy": http://www.pointshooting.com/1aerials.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

EZ Point Shooting - a how to video: http://www.pointshooting.com/psvideob.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

The P&S grip is a very strong four finger grip: http://www.pointshooting.com/1apsgrip.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

P&S grip/method = less recoil - better accuracy http://www.pointshooting.com/1arecoil.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

Grip mechanics: http://www.pointshooting.com/1agrip.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

NRA supports the use of Point Shooting for SD: http://www.pointshooting.com/1anra.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

How 2 shoot 2 kill more effectively: http://pointshooting.com/1alive.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

[Totem Polar]

At some point you have to ask yourself "Self, have I really stumbled across some new way of doing things that all those various trophy-winners and face-shooters just don't know about? I mean, all these people who shoot guns for a living are doing it one way, but some random stranger on the internet is telling me to do it another way. Which is right?"


Since this is still going on, I guess I'll take up the second opportunity to observe that your comment reminded me of the "south park" episode where people stick food in their butts and crap out their mouths as the newer, better way.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmNeO63xCnU

[Lomshek]

Shooting Aerials with P&S is "easy": http://www.pointshooting.com/1aerials.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

EZ Point Shooting - a how to video: http://www.pointshooting.com/psvideob.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

The P&S grip is a very strong four finger grip: http://www.pointshooting.com/1apsgrip.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

P&S grip/method = less recoil - better accuracy http://www.pointshooting.com/1arecoil.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

Grip mechanics: http://www.pointshooting.com/1agrip.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

NRA supports the use of Point Shooting for SD: http://www.pointshooting.com/1anra.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

How 2 shoot 2 kill more effectively: http://pointshooting.com/1alive.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

9908

[BehindBlueI's]

At some point you have to ask yourself "Self, have I really stumbled across some new way of doing things that all those various trophy-winners and face-shooters just don't know about? I mean, all these people who shoot guns for a living are doing it one way, but some random stranger on the internet is telling me to do it another way. Which is right?"

The lead intertubes promulgator of the P&S theory has been challenged to put up or shut up for years now. Never has. If you want to be his latest mark, knock yourself out. But if you're doing that, you're wasting your time on this forum.

I think the "true believers" see themselves as Galileo, and of course some have to know they are snake oils salesman but are ok with it as long as they profit.. The issue is for every Galileo there are thousands of self-deluded morons who believe they are Galileo, and hundreds of thousands of rubes lined up right behind them who become too invested emotionally to back down. That would require some introspection and admitting of fault. That's obviously difficult to do when it challenges self-worth and ego. We *all* do it to some extent, we can't be experts in everything so we must follow thought leader in some areas. In my mind, one mark of the true expert is the ability to question, to sift through, and to discard what isn't optimal, even if the past said it was. Which I say fully aware of my own hypocrisy, because I have a tendency to blow off new technology (like red dot scopes and cell phones...) long after they really should have proven their worth to me. Well, red dots did anyway. I'm still kind of undecided on this damn cell phone thing.

[PNWTO]

So if we are examining P&S in 2016... where is the thread extolling the teacup grip from the weaver stance?

[Joe in PNG]

So if we are examining P&S in 2016... where is the thread extolling the teacup grip from the weaver stance?

After the thread where someone tells us that semi-autos are just a passing fad, and what every good pistolero need is a revolver.

[Malamute]

P&S grip/method = less recoil - better accuracy http://www.pointshooting.com/1arecoil.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)



Well, that pretty conclusively proves that P&S is better. Makes perfect sense. If there were just some way to get the hand up that high using the regular trigger finger the difference may not be as pronounced.


The mentioned quote by Steve Denny was weird though, he was doing it wrong, using the index finger for the trigger.

[JCS]

"If you are involved in a cose quarters gunfight, you will shoot with your strong hand, and there is a better than 70% chance that you will not use the sights. You will use instinctive shooting.

Those are just two of the findings of the NYPD'S SOP 9 study of thousands of Police combat cases; and they have not been replaced by other studies/data to date. "

These kind of statements are really confusing. So there is a 70% chance you won't use your sights. Is that because of a lack of training? Did they not use them because the couldn't or because they just chose not to. I think that's a big difference and broad statements don't address that.


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[Randy Harris]

What minimally or untrained people might or might not do or be able to do (largely from never being trained to do anything one way or the other ) is of minimal interest to me. I'm far more intersted in what level we can bring people up to...not settle for pre programmed mediocrity... If you look back at the Fairbairn/ Sykes training regimen with the Shanghai Municipal Police they shot like 35 rounds a year for practice. Before they instituted their training the bad guys cleaned their clocks as far as hit percentage ....after they instituted their training they came UP TO the level of the UNTRAINED bad guys....

Now, are there certain time and distance windows where less than sighted fire can be effective? Yes....of course. Someone mentioned ECQC earlier and that is the environment where less than sighted fire is effective. If you physically cannot extend the gun without getting it snatched or averted then you'd better either have some less than full extension shooting skills on board or better be able to make a lot of space.....and that is hard to do when fighting with a dude in the front seat of a car......

Anything past 5 yards (if the down range back stop is anything other than a mountain) really needs at least SOME type of visual verification for the overwhelming majority of shooters. The problem is that all these "gimmicks" that some folks push as "the answer" to make "the average guy" more combat effective than world class shooters tend to be one trick pony techniques that work under VERY specific conditions, distances and positions. The offer still stands for anyone to go to Rogers and pass it point shooting...... That is scoring a mere 70 out of 125 but I doubt you'll ever see anyone of the internet point shooting personalities take Bill up on the offer.

[nycnoob]

of course some have to know they are snake oils salesman but are ok with it as long as they profit.


Oh Profit! I have heard about that.

If you are looking for point-shooting videos you might want to try Pete Kautz

Shooting DVDs (http://www.alliancemartialarts.com/dvd%20catalog/Shooting%20DVDs.htm)



American Instinctive Rifle Seminar

Aerial Target Coaching Clinic

Quick start progressions for teaching new shooters how to nail those aerials! Both the physical skills and "how to coach" so they learn fast plus coin shooting details, walking & shooting, alternate ready positions, more!



He is keeping the Lucky McDaniels "Quick Kill" stuff alive. I enjoy it and often break out my Red Ryder and
a bunch of tin cans as an alternative to spending $$$ on sporting clays. I believe that this really does help
my "clay game" and its cheap and fun. And Besides Pete is a really nice guy, I go see him about once a year
for a private lesson in something or other.

I thought there were two videos, I only see one now. Perhaps the second one is on the cutting room floor.


Anyone else do this for fun?

[Trooper224]

So if we are examining P&S in 2016... where is the thread extolling the teacup grip from the weaver stance?

Do it like Angie.
http://travsd.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/tumblr_m035lqfu6x1qe90ht.jpg

Regarding the use of video as a training tool: I used dozens of them as such while an instructor. However, that was done to illustrate what NOT TO DO. I don't recall ever using one and telling students, "Do what this guy did." Video is a pretty short yardstick of severity by which to measure performance.

[HCM]

Do it like Angie.
http://travsd.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/tumblr_m035lqfu6x1qe90ht.jpg

Regarding the use of video as a training tool: I used dozens of them as such while an instructor. However, that was done to illustrate what NOT TO DO. I don't recall ever using one and telling students, "Do what this guy did." Video is a pretty short yardstick of severity by which to measure performance.

But Angie looked GOOD doing it.

[JAD]

. So there is a 70% chance you won't use your sights.?

Right, save of 14 or better versus being a retard.

[Trooper224]

But Angie looked GOOD doing it.

I do concede that point good sir.

[Hambo]

So there is a 70% chance you won't use your sights.

70% of the time it works every time.

[Tom Givens]

I ran across an interesting statistic while doing some research.

In the period from 1929-1938, under Fairbairn, the Shanghai Municipal Police fired 3,329 rounds in engagements with criminals. Those rounds accounted for 159 bad guys killed, and 149 more wounded. That works out to 10.8 rounds fired per casualty produced.

During the same period, Shanghai bad guys fired 789 rounds in engagements with the SMP, resulting in 19 dead officers and another 67 wounded. Thus, the bad guys fired 9.2 rounds per casualty produced.

The untrained thugs did 15% better than the trained point-shooters.

[Chuck Haggard]

Like Tom, this guy might know a thing or two about gunfighting...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3nGbN7RxpI

[Duelist]

I ran across an interesting statistic while doing some research.

In the period from 1929-1938, under Fairbairn, the Shanghai Municipal Police fired 3,329 rounds in engagements with criminals. Those rounds accounted for 159 bad guys killed, and 149 more wounded. That works out to 10.8 rounds fired per casualty produced.

During the same period, Shanghai bad guys fired 789 rounds in engagements with the SMP, resulting in 19 dead officers and another 67 wounded. Thus, the bad guys fired 9.2 rounds per casualty produced.

The untrained thugs did 15% better than the trained point-shooters.

Statistics are funny that way. We can look at that number and say the thugs were better shots than the cops. Or we can ignore the hit percentages and say that, fortunately, the thugs were such poor shots that they were only able to kill 19 officers vs 159 thugs being killed by officers in the same period of time.

[Mitch]

Statistics are funny that way. We can look at that number and say the thugs were better shots than the cops. Or we can ignore the hit percentages and say that, fortunately, the thugs were such poor shots that they were only able to kill 19 officers vs 159 thugs being killed by officers in the same period of time.

Or we can agree that being poorly trained or an untrained thug are both shitty ways to go through life.


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[5shot]

RIFLE Rifle Quick Kill - US ARMY TT 23-71-1

US Army publication: TT 23-71-1, is a training text on the fast and accurate method of fire called Rifle Quick Kill, and Basic Rifle Marksmanship.

Rifle Quick Kill (Rifle Quick Kill), was taught BEFORE the soldier was introduced to aimed fire which utilizes the sights (Rifle Marksmanship). In just minutes, soldiers were taught to use Rifle Quick Kill to hit small aerial targets with BB guns.

Here's a link to info on it. You are welcome to download and use the info as you wish. It may be helpful to read the article more than once to gain a good understanding of what needs to be done.

http://www.pointshooting.com/1aqkrif.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

I cobbled together a crude carbine using some pvc pipe and an airsoft pistol and used it successfully to shoot at a swinging target in a garage.

[Peally]

That link is full of some... interesting... things.

I'll continue using my sights personally.

[scw2]

RIFLE Rifle Quick Kill - US ARMY TT 23-71-1

US Army publication: TT 23-71-1, is a training text on the fast and accurate method of fire called Rifle Quick Kill, and Basic Rifle Marksmanship.

Rifle Quick Kill (Rifle Quick Kill), was taught BEFORE the soldier was introduced to aimed fire which utilizes the sights (Rifle Marksmanship). In just minutes, soldiers were taught to use Rifle Quick Kill to hit small aerial targets with BB guns.

Here's a link to info on it. You are welcome to download and use the info as you wish. It may be helpful to read the article more than once to gain a good understanding of what needs to be done.

http://www.pointshooting.com/1aqkrif.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

I cobbled together a crude carbine using some pvc pipe and an airsoft pistol and used it successfully to shoot at a swinging target in a garage.

I hope you take up this offer from Okie John (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19110-History-of-Defensive-Handgun-Techniques&p=487579&viewfull=1#post487579) and show Peally and the rest of us how it's done...

[Joe in PNG]

Hey 5 shot- you have been called out here (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19110-History-of-Defensive-Handgun-Techniques&p=487579&viewfull=1#post487579):


Rather than continue to debate this idiocy, I'll make an offer to our friend 5shot: you enter a dozen action shooting matches, or one each month between now and September 30, 2017. I'll cover your entry fees. You must use your P&S technique. You may not use sighted fire. These matches are designed specifically to mimic the conditions under which you suggest that your technique is superior, so they should be the perfect place to refine, advance, and share your thinking. In return, you provide us contact information for the match directors and an independent way to verify your scores.

If you finish above the bottom third in any of these matches, then I'll apologize publicly. I'll also buy and distribute a case of P-F.com rape whistles to match our hats and watches.

If you can't get out of the bottom third, then you take down your site permanently, shut up about P&S, and go away.

Put up for real, or shut up.

[JCS]

$10 says he doesn't take him up on the offer. He doesn't want to get waxed by some IT guy using sighted fire. It will ruin his whole system.


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[Malamute]

Shooting Aerials with P&S is "easy": http://www.pointshooting.com/1aerials.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

EZ Point Shooting - a how to video: http://www.pointshooting.com/psvideob.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

The P&S grip is a very strong four finger grip: http://www.pointshooting.com/1apsgrip.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

P&S grip/method = less recoil - better accuracy http://www.pointshooting.com/1arecoil.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

Grip mechanics: http://www.pointshooting.com/1agrip.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

NRA supports the use of Point Shooting for SD: http://www.pointshooting.com/1anra.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

How 2 shoot 2 kill more effectively: http://pointshooting.com/1alive.htm (http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/the-funny-nope-10.jpg)

Looking at the links, it quickly becomes apparent that someone it trying to equate what is probably shitty traditional type techniques, poor training levels, and results as typical of "traditional sighted fire" and want to replace it with even shittier techniques, based on the faulty supposition that since so many people shoot poorly, that the entire premise of "traditional sighted fire" was at fault. Those using good training, good techniques, and well aimed fire have very good results, as shown by numerous people here, and their department results. The hilarious example I quoted earlier, the "P&S grip method" link, showed a shitty grip, basically said that's how a standard grip is, that the finger laid alongside the frame was superior because it allowed the web of the hand to go farther up the frame, then, was supposedly confirmed in that presumption by a link to a Steve Denny piece, which showed the good, high grip, only he was using a regular trigger finger grip. That as an example was beautiful. It shows how retarded the whole thing is, both in the bad example of a regular grip done very poorly, and using a linked example that doesn't prove the proposed method at all, but shows the proper method using regular trigger finger use and hand positioning.

Shooting cans in the air at 5 feet with an airsoft and trying to use it as proof that pointing the gun with your finger is some breakthrough is further retardery. It aint that hard, even outside with regular guns, and at farther distances than 4 or 5 feet. If anyone practices it some, it is hardly the ninja skill the link tries to make it out as.

Anyone that believes this finger pointing crap needs to pony up and shoot against some decent shooters using traditional methods, lets see it side by side. I'm sure theres plenty of guys on here that are available for a demonstration. So far, nobody in the finger pointing or the other method of so-called point shooting has stepped up to show us dipshits stuck in the inferior traditional sighted shooting method how much we suck. Instead its flaky stories used as some sort of "proof" of the amazing superiority of this nonsense.

Apply the same amount of practice to traditional sighted shooting as to this snake oil and see how your results are. I'll bet it doesn't seem so shiny. The whole thing reeks of "Ancient Aliens" and similar tv shows. Never show anything solid, just bring things up and ask vague questions, make faulty and misleading suppositions, dismiss practical and accepted methods of research, pretending its somehow all true. Its smoke and mirrors. Can you say "confirmation bias (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)"?

ETA: yes, my back hurts a lot, its difficult to be really polite in the face of this stupidity. Not calling it out (not that theres any lack of that) diminishes this site.

[okie john]

Shooting cans in the air at 5 feet with an airsoft and trying to use it as proof that pointing the gun with your finger is some breakthrough is further retardery. It aint that hard, even outside with regular guns, and at farther distances than 4 or 5 feet. If anyone practices it some, it is hardly the ninja skill the link tries to make it out as.

This.

Many years ago, I had access to a place where it was safe to shoot at aerial targets and I got pretty good at hitting them. If you read Ed McGivern's Fast & Fancy Revolver Shooting, you'll see that it's not that hard at all.

But you have to use your sights, and they have to be zeroed. That book even has a photo of a set of discs with bullet holes in them to show the effect of zero. The hits progress slowly toward the edges as he moved the sights to one side. He used a standard grip with his index finger on the trigger for that stuff.


Okie John

[okie john]

$10 says he doesn't take him up on the offer. He doesn't want to get waxed by some IT guy using sighted fire. It will ruin his whole system.

I just realized that 5shot is in Washington. So am I. Maybe a range trip is in order.

5shot, are you out there?


Okie John

[Joe in PNG]

5shot, are you out there?
Okie John


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5SyuiljV-E

[okie john]

Probably, but he's read-only at the moment.

Fair enough. I'll stand down.


Okie John

[Paul Sharp]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5SyuiljV-E

I expressed mirth audibly.


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[Wondering Beard]

Statistics are funny that way. We can look at that number and say the thugs were better shots than the cops. Or we can ignore the hit percentages and say that, fortunately, the thugs were such poor shots that they were only able to kill 19 officers vs 159 thugs being killed by officers in the same period of time.

Or we could look in the details and probably find out that the thugs, more often than not, ambushed the officers.

[Duelist]

Or we could look in the details and probably find out that the thugs, more often than not, ambushed the officers.

All depends on what we want to make the statistics say.

[Trooper224]

Any fans of the pistol Aimed Point & Shoot technique?

Not in this house. You know what I am a fan of though? People who make statements so utterly moronic, yet cling to them as if they were the Shroud of Turin. They make me feel like Galileo or Einstein. It really brightens my day and sense of self worth.

[PNWTO]

Rifle Quick Kill (Rifle Quick Kill), was taught BEFORE the soldier was introduced to aimed fire which utilizes the sights (Rifle Marksmanship). In just minutes, soldiers were taught to use Rifle Quick Kill to hit small aerial targets with BB guns.

So why isn't QK being taught anymore? Why was it superseded?

This may be the clearest example of neckbeard Dunning-Kruger I have ever seen.

[SAWBONES]

"Point shooting" works for just about anybody at extremely close quarters, like 3 feet, at least insofar as "approximate center of mass" hits go.

At longer distances, say 5 yards and more, some people seem to have "the knack" for it, but many simply don't.

I certainly don't.

(Confession: I even have an original hardcover volume of Instinct Shooting: The Amazing Method of Marksmanship as Taught by the Dynamic Lucky McDaniel.) :p


Aimed fire obviously wins in any standardized assessment of practical pistol accuracy.

I've always emphasized accuracy AND precision in shooting.
"Approximately" ain't good enough IMNSHO.
The "you'll never be able to see your sights" drivel is unconvincing.

I believe there are unusual folks who can "point shoot" to good effect, at relatively short distances, but most of us do better using some type and degree of sighted shooting.

[Malamute]

Lets not forget that this isn't just "point shooting" as its commonly known, but AIMED so-called point shooting, using the middle finger to pull the trigger, and using the index finger to point at the target, since using the trigger finger to pull the trigger is so failure prone, and everybody knows pointing your finger at something is infallible, and the astounding improvement in natural accuracy of pointing your finger overcomes all the disadvantages of having a weird grip on the gun (though it somehow got into somebodys head that its an improvement in grip also).

Sorry, its hard to write that without laughing.

[okie john]

There are plenty of places where posters can call each other idiots, but I'm glad we're breaking this down like we are. I'm concerned that someone may hear about this method and think it has merit. If they do any research, it would be good if they could stumble onto this thread and see a set of well-reasoned set of arguments against it. Hopefully we can keep anyone from trying to actually use it in a gunfight.


Okie John

[Hambo]

If that dissuades you from the P&S technique, don't worry, 5shot has something for that too:

https://www.google.com/patents/US6023874

Now I have seen everything.

[Welder]

If that dissuades you from the P&S technique, don't worry, 5shot has something for that too:

https://www.google.com/patents/US6023874

Well any idiot can see that'll never sell. There's no windage or elevation adjustment.

[serialsolver]

Don't the slide cut your finger when you shoot an auto loader or your finger blocks the ejection port or your finger drags on the slide slowing the slide down and impedes reliability?

When shooting a revolver what about flame cutting the finger?

Isn't muzzle flip increased caused by a weakened grip since there are only two fingers on the grip and the little finger (the weakest finger) is higher on the grip?

The above are rhetorical questions.


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[DpdG]

As odd as it sounds, I suffered a crushing injury to my strong hand index finger the night before SWAT quals a couple years ago. Out of necessity, I shot the entire qualification, which entails pistol and rifle, then each weapon system while wearing a gas mask, utilizing my middle finger to pull the trigger. I was utilizing the sights, but given I had never pulled a single trigger with my middle finger, it went surprisingly well. No (further) injuries to my index finger and accuracy was pretty comparable to my standard performance. The biggest difference in performance was time- I had to slow way down as my trigger management was much less refined.

[Malamute]

Don't the slide cut your finger when you shoot an auto loader or your finger blocks the ejection port or your finger drags on the slide slowing the slide down and impedes reliability?

When shooting a revolver what about flame cutting the finger?

Isn't muzzle flip increased caused by a weakened grip since there are only two fingers on the grip and the little finger (the weakest finger) is higher on the grip?

The above are rhetorical questions.


In the alternate universe of AIMED point shooting represented by the posts by 5shot, they claim the "regular" grip is a three finger grip, and the improved middle finger as trigger finger is a 4 finger grip and therefore obviously an improvement in grip strength and control of the gun.

Its also better because everyone using the index finger as trigger finger in utterly unable to get a proper grip high enough on the gun with the index finger operating the trigger, and the middle finger as trigger finger gets the web of the hand up high where it should be. Its funny that his example in the linked page showed a high grip, but with normal index finger use for the trigger. Cant figure out why that was used as an example of the superiority of the middle finger as trigger finger, other than it may be an example of the low level of critical thinking of the whole thing, and any of its readers that may be as good at critical thinking as the person that used it as an example.

This whole thing made me think of the meme about April 1 being the only day of the year most people question news stories before deciding if they are true or not. Couldn't find the picture of that though, it was perfect for this.

RE: DpdGs post above, I had a piece of metal imbedded in my right eye years ago, so went shooting left eyed and handed. I was able to do most of what I normally could, just a bit slower, including hitting the 300 yard plate with iron sighted AR. I think novel things make us pay more attention, and allow somewhat passable abilities. I was always surprised that shooting a 1911 left handed, my brass was always in a smaller pile than shooting right handed. I think I was more focused on the shot when shooting left handed. That may be a partial reason some people may think the AIMED point shooting thing with using the middle finger may actually be an improvement, they are doing something novel, and are paying close attention to what they are doing.

[Failure2Stop]

I added some lines to an image from 5shot's website:

9960

If that dissuades you from the P&S technique, don't worry, 5shot has something for that too:

https://www.google.com/patents/US6023874

Whoah!
Wait a second there bub...
You people aren't zeroing your index fingers?!

No wonder you don't understand why this is such a great system.

[HopetonBrown]

What does it mean when James Yeager says it's the worst gun advice he's ever heard?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pcg749--GGA




I added some lines to an image from 5shot's website:

9960

If that dissuades you from the P&S technique, don't worry, 5shot has something for that too:

https://www.google.com/patents/US6023874

[Failure2Stop]

What does it mean when James Yeager says it's the worst gun advice he's ever heard?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pcg749--GGA

Actually really funny that this dude is uniting the gun world against him.

[Joe in PNG]

Actually really funny that this dude is uniting the gun world against him.

In his deluded little mind, this is probably more proof that he has the Secret Shooting Skill They Don't Want You To Know About!

[Clusterfrack]

I added some lines to an image from 5shot's website:

9960

If that dissuades you from the P&S technique, don't worry, 5shot has something for that too:

https://www.google.com/patents/US6023874

He filed a PATENT for this? HAHAHAH!!! Holy shit... That is truly awesome. I wonder if the USPTO examiner was laughing as hard as I am... At least it was probably an easy case without much deliberation.

[BillSWPA]

He filed a PATENT for this? HAHAHAH!!! Holy shit... That is truly awesome. I wonder if the USPTO examiner was laughing as hard as I am... At least it was probably an easy case without much deliberation.

Getting a patent requires that the invention be useful, novel (no one else has done it before), and nonobvious (not obvious to one skilled in the art based on what has been done before. Ironically, at least at the time this patent was granted, it was sometimes easier to get a patent on a stupid idea, because there was a much lower likelihood that someone else had thought of it, resulting in a lack of prior art on which to base novelty and obviousness rejections.

In the case of this patent, the application was filed in 1998 and granted in 2000. One office action was issued with an initial rejection, which happens with almost all applications. Only one amendment filing was necessary to obtain allowance. All maintenance fees have been paid.

I started practicing in 1998, and at that time it was much easier to get a patent than it is today. Back then, most rejections could be dealt with by sufficiently narrowing the claims. Now, this will often be insufficient to overcome an obviousness rejection, and some good arguments in favor of nonobviousness are often critical. This patent would have been much more difficult to obtain had it been applied for more recently.

[JCS]

Whoah!
Wait a second there bub...
You people aren't zeroing your index fingers?!

No wonder you don't understand why this is such a great system.

Is a 25yd or 50yd zero better for this technique. Let the debate begin [emoji12]


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[Sherman A. House DDS]

Like a few of the other posters, I ended up in this boat because I incurred a metal fragment injury to my left index finger, that resulted in a staph infection. I lost about 40% of the palmar surface of my index finger. That sidelined me from work for about a month. After that, my index finger was, "out of business," as far as trigger pulling duty. So when I switch hands, I have to do that middle finger jobby.

One of the reasons I like M&P's so much is that I can actually get enough leverage to use my busted index finger to shoot them. I can also shoot some rifles and 870's properly too. But my beloved G19? Offhand is the flip off finger.

I've never been flame cut shooting revolvers this way, although I have gotten an awfully sooty finger before.

Bottom line, staph infections suck, and don't make fun of the guy at the range doing this...it might not be desirable, but it works.


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[Malamute]

I certainly have nothing against doing whatever is required to shoot if unable to use regular methods. Ive tried cutting various parts of fingers off, its pretty inconvenient in general.



I added some lines to an image from 5shot's website:

9960

If that dissuades you from the P&S technique, don't worry, 5shot has something for that too:

https://www.google.com/patents/US6023874


Well any idiot can see that'll never sell. There's no windage or elevation adjustment.

The whole pointing of fingers had been resurfacing in my mind recently in dry fire. I still don't understand why its accepted by some as the standard of excellence for accuracy? How do you know your finger is pointing anywhere near what youre looking at. When I point my finger, and actually examine the true direction it seems to be pointing, its curved. If a bullet or laser came out of it, no telling where it would go, but I'm pretty sure the finger is NOT a precision pointing/aiming instrument.

[Ed L]

Like a few of the other posters, I ended up in this boat because I incurred a metal fragment injury to my left index finger, that resulted in a staph infection. I lost about 40% of the palmar surface of my index finger. That sidelined me from work for about a month. After that, my index finger was, "out of business," as far as trigger pulling duty. So when I switch hands, I have to do that middle finger jobby.

One of the reasons I like M&P's so much is that I can actually get enough leverage to use my busted index finger to shoot them. I can also shoot some rifles and 870's properly too. But my beloved G19? Offhand is the flip off finger.

I've never been flame cut shooting revolvers this way, although I have gotten an awfully sooty finger before.

Bottom line, staph infections suck, and don't make fun of the guy at the range doing this...it might not be desirable, but it works.


I don't think anyone would make fun of someone who did this out of necessity after an injury.

But many of us get riled about the nonsensical argument that it is a better way to shoot a gun as put forth by the know-nothing who has been banned from many forums for trolling this nonsense.

[StraitR]

Like a few of the other posters, I ended up in this boat because I incurred a metal fragment injury to my left index finger, that resulted in a staph infection. I lost about 40% of the palmar surface of my index finger. That sidelined me from work for about a month. After that, my index finger was, "out of business," as far as trigger pulling duty. So when I switch hands, I have to do that middle finger jobby.

One of the reasons I like M&P's so much is that I can actually get enough leverage to use my busted index finger to shoot them. I can also shoot some rifles and 870's properly too. But my beloved G19? Offhand is the flip off finger.

I've never been flame cut shooting revolvers this way, although I have gotten an awfully sooty finger before.

Bottom line, staph infections suck, and don't make fun of the guy at the range doing this...it might not be desirable, but it works.

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That sucks dude, I can relate, and I'm sorry. Hope you're doing better. After surgery to repair (sort of) two tendons in my trigger finger, I shot offhand only for over 9 months. When I was finally able to hold and shoot a pistol in my dominant hand, I still had to pull the trigger with my, as you so aptly named, flip off finger for nearly six months. While getting a good grip out of the holster proved to be a challenge, working the trigger with the middle finger is surprisingly simple. That said, those were some dark days bro, dark days indeed.

Not sure why anyone would chose to shoot that way, but to each their own.

[Peally]

The times I've had an injured arm/hand I just shot with my off hand. Fine excuse to practice.