anyone familiar with Prefragmented ammo perfromance? - Magsafe or Glaser etc

[part-time shooter]

I've got ~50 rounds of Magsafe ammo and a "pack" or two of the silver tip Glaser ammo. It's not new ammo, I purchased it for home defense while living in an apartment complex years ago when I was worried about dryway shooting through the neighbors walls...

I remember back in the 80's there was a report from the FBI or military about the superiority of prefragmented ammo but I "think" that was disputed several years later. Are there any good resources comparing normal loads to the various prefragmented rounds? I don't carry the ammo but I was digging through my night stand and found a bag of the stuff and wondered what the current thinking was on it's use. I've read here and there that several military units still use the stuff for specific applications and situations, I'd imagine the US air marshals use it but I've no clue if they do.

Thanks.

[JDM]

I don't have any info for you on the pre-fragmented ammo thing, but IIRC the FAMS uses 125gr GoldDots in their .357SIGs.

It's a common misconception that a bullet hole (or 5) will cause hull loss in an aircraft, it will not. It will cause the cabin pressure to decrease somewhat quickly and cause the little yellow masks to drop, but that's the extent of it.

[gringop]

I can't think of any time where I would want to make shallow, messy, non-penetrating wounds on an attacker.

I can't think of a time where I would want my self defense ammo to not penetrate auto glass or heavy clothing or at least 12" into flesh.

I can't think of any instance where I would be shooting so wildly and poorly that I would want to buy ammo that is stopped by 1 layer of sheetrock.

Go shoot that crap up at the range and get it out of your life. Or sell it to someone you don't like.


Gringop

[Tamara]

If you're ever attacked by crazed watermelons and 2-liter soda bottles filled with water, it's the berries. Otherwise, not so much.

(Basically, what gringop said above. From everything I've read on it, if you can guarantee that the dude you're going to need to shoot is of average or lighter build, wearing a light cotton shirt, facing squarely at you, doesn't have an arm or anything in the way, and you're gonna dot him right between the nipples, it might be okay. Anything more challenging than that, and you'd be better off with FMJ, which at least stands a chance of getting to something vital.)

[Al T.]

Tried some Glasers years ago. Horrendous muzzle flash, severe POA/POI problems like 18 inch difference at ten yards.

I'd see if a cartridge collector would want them.

[Chuck Haggard]

Read this;
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs5.htm

and check out this; http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/357%20Magnum%20Glaser.jpg

vs this; http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/38%20Spl%20FBI%20load.jpg

On top of the many tests done by guys like Doc Roberts on this kind of ammo, I have seen first hand the wounding potential of the Glasers. I am underwhelmed. I would not carry this type of ammo for any use other than if it was given to me for free and I needed for some reason to shoot varmints at close range with a pistol.

Among the many issues with this ammo, it is completely out of the weight and velocity range most guns were designed around, thus giving both poor function and point of impact vs point of aim issues, and you have to be rich to be able to afford enough to test fire your pistol with this ammo to prove function. The Glaser often fails to fragment as designed, and the QC on the MagSafe ammo is poor.

I would sell it at a gun show to mall ninjas.

[Tamara]

I would sell it at a gun show to mall ninjas.

I bought a pack of Magsafe in 7.62x25 some years back. I still have no idea what I'm going to shoot it at, but hitting a gallon milk jug full of colored water with a lightweight bullet at 2100ish fps that fragments pretty much on contact appeals to the same part of the brain that likes setting off fireworks under overturned trash cans... :o

(I don't know that I'd trust Magsafe for shooting critters, either, due to the aforementioned POI issues.)

[Chuck Haggard]

I bought a pack of Magsafe in 7.62x25 some years back. I still have no idea what I'm going to shoot it at, but hitting a gallon milk jug full of colored water with a lightweight bullet at 2100ish fps that fragments pretty much on contact appeals to the same part of the brain that likes setting off fireworks under overturned trash cans... :o

(I don't know that I'd trust Magsafe for shooting critters, either, due to the aforementioned POI issues.)


Well, there is the fun aspect.


I may have been told that Glasers may be a good choice if you have a snub handy, and a pissed off possum on the porch, and you don't want to shoot a hole in the porch.

[TGS]

Well, there is the fun aspect.


I may have been told that Glasers may be a good choice if you have a snub handy, and a pissed off possum on the porch, and you don't want to shoot a hole in the porch.

Just think of how many people are going to try that with .410 shells in their Judge, only to see a REALLY pissed off, unharmed possum......

[NickA]

According to Tom Givens the first guy that Lance Thomas shot in his watch shop was basically point blank with a Glaser from a 38 snub. It hit right under his nose and dude dropped like a rock... Because he fainted. The wound was only bad enough to delay his trip to jail with a very brief detour to the hospital.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

[DocGKR]

Unlike rifle bullets, handgun bullets generally only disrupt tissue by the crush mechanism. Temporary cavitation from most handgun bullets does not reliably damage tissue and is not usually a significant mechanism of wounding. Handgun bullets do not generally exhibit the fragmentation effects produced by rifle bullets. If handgun bullets fragment, the bullet fragments are usually found within 1 cm of the permanent cavity and wound severity is generally not increased. In addition, handgun bullet deformation is not as consistent or reliable as with rifle bullets. The critical factor in assessing the wounding effectiveness of handgun bullets, from the perspective of military and law enforcement personnel as well as private citizens who depend on firearms to protect themselves, is the ability of the bullet to reliably penetrate at least 10 to 12 inches of soft tissue, the minimum depth necessary to ensure disruption of the major organs and blood vessels in the torso from any angle. Of the bullets which attain this goal of deep penetration, those with a larger diameter crush more tissue. Greater tissue disruption can increase hemorrhage and promote faster incapacitation from rapid blood loss.

The 1970’s era Relative Incapacitation Index (RII) developed by the National Institute of Justice Law Enforcement Assistance Administration was an attempt to determine which handgun bullets would have the greatest wounding effect and would incapacitate a human most reliably. The RII assumed that the size of the temporary cavity produced by a given handgun bullet in ordnance gelatin is directly proportional to the wounding effect and incapacitation produced by that bullet in a human. The study recommended lightweight, high velocity bullets with rapid expansion in tissue and frangible pre-fragmented bullets, such as the Glaser Safety Slug, as producing the greatest wounding effect and most reliable incapacitation in humans. The RII completely ignored the size and depth of the permanent cavity, the tissue which is actually destroyed by the bullet. Since many tissues in the human body are elastic, they absorb the stretch and tissue displacement produced by temporary cavitation with minimal damage. Unfortunately, as a result of the badly flawed NIJ LEAA RII study, lightweight, high velocity handgun bullets and frangible, pre-fragmented handgun bullets became extremely popular.

Shallow penetrating, lightweight, high velocity, rapidly expanding bullets and frangible pre-fragmented bullets are often recommended because of the widespread fear of handgun bullet overpenetration, in other words, a bullet which completely passes through the body, exits the other side, and continues on to potentially endanger innocent bystanders. This feared hazard is greatly exaggerated. The skin on the exit side of the body is tough, resilient, and flexible, and can have the same resistance to bullet passage as four inches of muscle. This often results in bullets ending their path just under the skin at the anticipated exit point rather than overpenetrating as might be expected based on laboratory studies. In addition, those few bullets which overpenetrate after hitting the target are not any more dangerous to innocent bystanders than the overwhelming majority of bullets fired by law enforcement personnel which miss the intended target all together. According to Special Agent Urey Patrick, former Assistant Chief of the FBI Firearms Training Unit: "Choosing a bullet because of relatively shallow penetration will seriously compromise weapon effectiveness and needlessly endanger the lives of law enforcement officers using it. No law enforcement officer has lost his life because a bullet over-penetrated his adversary, and virtually none has ever been sued for hitting an innocent bystander through an adversary. On the other hand, tragically large numbers of officers have been killed because their bullets did not penetrate deeply enough."

Vital anatomic structures are located deep within the body, protected by various layers of tissue. The major blood vessels in the torso of even a slender adult can be located up to 6" from the ventral skin surface and much deeper in larger individuals. Bullets must be able to penetrate deeply enough to disrupt the major organs and blood vessels in the torso and cause the massive hemorrhage which results in rapid incapacitation in the absence of central nervous system trauma. Thick clothing, body angulation, and intervening anatomic structures, such as excess adipose tissue, hypertrophied muscle, or even an arm, hand, or shoulder, can increase the distance a bullet must penetrate to reach the vital organs and blood vessels of the torso.

Lightweight, high velocity handgun bullets which rapidly expand or fragment in tissue have decreased penetration depth compared to heavier, slower, less deformed bullets and cannot consistently reach the major organs and blood vessels in the torso, especially from transverse and oblique angles. Handgun bullets designed to fragment on impact, like the Glaser and MagSafe, produce large shallow wounds, have extremely limited tissue penetration depth, and cannot consistently reach the major organs and blood vessels in the torso, especially from transverse and oblique angles. In addition, these bullets cannot defeat commonly encountered intermediate obstacles. For example: The 80 gr .357 Magnum Glaser Safety Slug has a muzzle velocity of 1785 f/s. It completely fragments on impact and only penetrates 4.7". When asked to comment on the potential survival time with a shot to the mid-abdomen by the Glaser, the surgeon heading the U. S. Army Wound Ballistic Laboratory, Dr. Martin Fackler, commented that the patient would, "survive about three days and the cause of death would be peritonitis". Not exactly the rapid physiological incapacitation necessary for law enforcement lethal force confrontations.

With the Magsafe 96 gr 10mm "Defender", the muzzle velocity is 1850 f/s and the bullet completely fragments on impact. The 13 pieces of #2 shot create a relatively large wound channel to a depth of 6". The pellets then spread outward and continue to penetrate up to 11.8", creating very small permanent wound tracts and producing minimal temporary cavities. How damaging is #2 bird shot? Would you ever choose it for hunting a 100 pound deer or other medium to large game? Would you literally bet your life that several small pieces of #2 birdshot will stop a 200 pound felon? How deep does your bullet need to penetrate to reach the descending aorta in a corpulent beer swilling biker intent on crushing in your cranium? How many inches of fat are covering the belly? How many more inches of distended, swollen intestines must then be traversed before your bullet finally reaches the major blood bearing arteries and organs of the deep abdomen? Then again, perhaps you will be assaulted by an ex-con buffed out from bench pressing while in prison. What if the buffed bad guy is shooting at you and your bullet first must go all the way through his arm before it even reaches his chest? Then how many inches of hypertrophied pectoralis muscle and dense rib must your handgun projectile pierce and crush through before finally continuing on into the heart or aorta? Will four, five, six, even eight inches of penetration be enough? Finally, warrior mindset, repetitive training, and consistent weapon reliability are far important than the best terminal wound ballistic performance in the world. Are you willing to purchase enough of this absurdly expensive pre-fragmented ammunition to shoot 100 rounds per week (5000+ rounds per year) in order to maintain your proficiency?

In other words, pre-fragmented bullets like the Glaser and Magsafe offer terminal performance that is substandard and fully eclipsed by most modern robust expanding JHP designs.

[JAD]

In other words, pre-fragmented bullets like the Glaser and Magsafe offer terminal performance that is substandard and fully eclipsed by most modern robust expanding JHP designs.
I admire your thinking and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[ghettomedic]

I admire your thinking and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Doc has a newsletter? I'd like details on subscribing, if so.

I'd like to personally thank Dr. Roberts for his contributions to this, and many other internet firearms forums. The world of terminal ballistics is fraught with gun-shop hearsay, errornet diatribes and numerous other pratfalls and I consider myself fortunate to have ready access to robust, repeatable, scientific results regarding the wounding effects of firearm projectiles across a variety of forums I visit.

On a personal level, as a scientist, graduate student, SRT paramedic and aspiring Navy physician Doc's postings have immense relevance to my life and career goals and I consider him a role model for his service to our country, his advocacy for LEOs and armed civilians, his many outstanding posts on a variety of topics and the manner in which he conducts himself on this and other forums.

Thank you, DocGKR.

[JAD]

Doc has a newsletter? I'd like details on subscribing, if so.
Sorry, that was a joke -- a Simpsons reference: the actual quote is "I find your ideas intriguing and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter." It was not sarcasm, though -- Doc's thinking seems well aligned with what I've managed to figure out so far.