LEM vs Striker, 9 vs .40

[GJM]

Recently, I have been thinking about my performance difference shooting 9 versus .40, and shooting a LEM trigger versus a striker pistol.

This afternoon, I did a "regular" practice session, and as it developed, I realized I was in a good position to test my performance with the different trigger systems and caliber. The array I had set up consisted of two USPSA cardboard targets, two MGM eight inch round plates, and one MGM ten inch plate, with the targets from 10-20 yards. Here was my set-up:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpshxnkizdr.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpshxnkizdr.jpeg.html)

Initially, I was shooting a Glock 19 MOS with a DeltaPoint Pro, American Eagle 124 ball, out of my USPSA Production/Carry Optics rig. To consistently shoot the array, with my accuracy standard of all A hits, ideally in the upper half of the A zone, I was averaging 3.5 seconds for the four shots on paper and three steel hits, over a number of runs. Next I repeated the same exercise with a Glock 19 with an Ameriglo TCAP front sight paired with an Operator rear, same 124 AE ammo, and same rig. With that pistol, I needed 4.0 seconds to shoot it cleanly. I had my P2000 .40 along, and repeated the same exercise, with AE 180 ball and shooting out of a JM OWB holster. After I settled in, I was right at 5.5 seconds to shoot the drill clean. At that point, I realized I need to shoot a Glock 23, to complete the exercise, so I ran back to the cabin and grabbed my Gen 4 G23, also set-up with a TCAP/Operator sight combo, 180 AE, shot out of my Production rig. With the Glock 23, I was right at 4.5 seconds to shoot the run clean. So to summarize, with these four pistols of similar size, but different in caliber my results to shoot the array clean were:

3.5 seconds Glock 19 MOS
4.0 seconds Glock 19, iron sights
4.5 seconds Glock 23, iron sights
5.5 seconds P2000, .40 LEM

(After I finished, I realized I would have liked to shoot a HK LEM P2000 in 9, and a DA/SA P2000 in 9 and .40. I did have a P2000 .40 DA/SA but no DA/SA 9 or LEM 9 to test.)

Next I shot the P2000 and Glock 23 out to 75 yards, to test that aspect of performance. Earlier, I had shot the P2000 at 25 yards, and it was holding the 3x5 at 25, so I know I had a good zero. Today, I found the G23 easier to hit the steel in the 50-75 yard range. At that point, I shot a group at 25 yards with the G23, to see what it was doing. Here was the group:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsjflb1vua.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsjflb1vua.jpeg.html)

Yesterday, SLG had made a point about the LEM not being appropriate for "top 16" performance, but still able to be shot very well. Nyeti, made the comment in a post I put in for him, that the difference between LEM and striker is not material in qualification or a street shooting. I have been shooting an LEM over 10 years, taken one to the Rogers School twice, to a TLG course, and have north of 100,000 LEM rounds down range. I wanted to do this testing again, because I feel like I am a better trigger puller than in previous years. While I have more striker and DA/SA time in recent years, I have been putting in the dry fire work lately, and been carrying a USP 45 LEM lately. Frankly, I was surprised how big the delta was in my performance between LEM and striker. Whether that difference in performance is enough to mean something to you, that is a personal decision.

Now 9 versus .40. I would love to see the FBI's test results on agent qualifications between 9 and .40. Depending upon how you do the math, the difference for me in the 19 and 23 is just over ten percent. If your threats are two leg critters, you really need to believe in the better terminal performance of .40, to be willing to take that difference in performance, without factoring in reliability considerations, and how much harder on shooters .40 is. Where there are four leg critters, I still feel better about .40 than 9, but that is just based on gut and no real data. Before I forget, I really do not understand issuing a sub four inch gun like the P2000 in .40 as a uniform duty gun. While I am confident it will hold up, I am equally confident that the average officer's qualification scores is surely worse with that size/trigger/cartridge combination.

I think it would be great if others did some testing, using whatever drills you think appropriate, to try to quantify the difference in your performance between LEM and a striker trigger system, and 9 versus .40 in the same size guns. My own conclusion, is I will still be carrying a USP 45 in the field, because it has proven to be dead nuts reliable, especially with heavy loads like the .45 Super I shoot, and I value reliability ahead of perhaps the greater shoot ability I might get with a Glock 20. For non field carry, I really feel like a striker or DA/SA offers me measurably better performance than the LEM trigger.



PS: I finished up shooting just the two cardboard targets, two shots each, with my Colt 6720 AR (BCM 15 inch rail, SA trigger, PMC 55 grain .223 ammo), comparing a T2 to a Swaro 1-6. With the Swaro, I was right at 2.0 seconds for four A zone hits, starting from the low ready. With the T2, I could get into the 1.75 range, but often with a C, and basically needed 2.0 to get four A zone hits. Funny, because the T2 felt so much faster.

[breakingtime91]

So not to troll you GJM but how many rounds have u put through a striker trigger recently compared to a lem? I know u have been competing with a striker g19 lately, so do u think that plays into it at all?

[Luke]

You just broke the Internet.


And freaking smokin shooting man. 3.5 is dead sexy.



Edit:

Been thinking about why I have issues (nothing bad) with shooting my LEM P2000 fast, I believe I have it narrowed down to the shape of the trigger and the break point. Shape is very curvy, it breaks very far back, making it easy for the gun to dip when raping the trigger. I'd bet you my P2000 that if it broke farther up (same amount of travel) it would be waaaaay easier to shoot faster.

[GJM]

So not to troll you GJM but how many rounds have u put through a striker trigger recently compared to a lem? I know u have been competing with a striker g19 lately, so do u think that plays into it at all?

My last match was at Area 1 in the first half of May. Since then I have been shooting more Glock 9mm than anything else, but almost as much .40 and .45 through a variety of pistols, with a significant amount of LEM. My personal experience is that I can pick up any pistol I have a substantial amount of rounds thru, whether that be striker, DA/SA or LEM and shoot a high percentage of my ability with that trigger system after a few hundred rounds.

You are not trolling me at all. I posted this to share my experiences. I also requested that others, if they are interested, go gather some data of their own. Do you still have a Glock you can dust off, and go shoot a few drills to develop some comparative data?

[breakingtime91]

My last match was at Area 1 in the first half of May. Since then I have been shooting more Glock 9mm than anything else, but almost as much .40 and .45 through a variety of pistols, with a significant amount of LEM. My personal experience is that I can pick up any pistol I have a substantial amount of rounds thru, whether that be striker, DA/SA or LEM and shoot a high percentage of my ability with that trigger system after a few hundred rounds.

You are not trolling me at all. I posted this to share my experiences. I also requested that others, if they are interested, go gather some data of their own. Do you still have a Glock you can dust off, and go shoot a few drills to develop some comparative data?


Nope just hammer fire guns now since I only train from appendix. Here is my thought process: At high levels, striker fire triggers are going to be easier to shoot faster. I think this is simple because the trigger travel is less and resets are a shorter distance (especially on glock). So if we are speaking about sheer shootability at upper levels and speed, striker wins. If we are talking about a safe/better system to practice with, carry, and get into a defensive situation with it the determination of "better" gets more difficult. Hopefully that clarifies my position on trigger systems and guns.

[Luke]

What ever gun you had the most time with before the LEM switch, you should borrow one and give this type test a go. I'd be curious to see what you find.

[breakingtime91]

What ever gun you had the most time with before the LEM switch, you should borrow one and give this type test a go. I'd be curious to see what you find.

I did this before leaving Montana, I can shoot a striker gun just as fast or quicker then a lem gun. This was no surprise to me since the triggers are easier to run fast (less movement). That is where you have to ask yourself what you want out of your carry gun. I like Lem or DA/SA because my first trigger pull is long and deliberate and follow up shots are comparable to a striker. A DA/SA gun is preferable because the SA is usually much shorter and lighter then a LEM trigger pull after reset. I find LEM a really good "gun fighting" gun because it has built in safe guards against me the shooter. My first pull is long and so it makes me very consciousness of what I am doing. It also has a "built in" decocker so when I am done shooting and my finger comes of the trigger the gun decocks. I know this may not resonate with everyone and that is fine but thats why I prefer the LEM for a civilian defense trigger as of 7/4/2016.

[Clobbersaurus]

I've never shot a LEM and I don't own a striker gun any more but I did do some similar testing with my 92D vs my Elite II by shooting it in an IPSC match. I've shot 4 matches this year. Three with my Elite II, and one with my 92D. I've spent a lot of time with my 92D so I feel like my performance is representative of the issues with the trigger.

Results:
89.76% - Elite II
69.37% - D
82.88% - Elite II
84.36% - Elite II

I placed 6th place overall each time with the Elite II and 13th with the 92D. So I feel like I've been fairly consistent with my Elite II, but the D trigger, longer and heavier, gives distinct performance disadvantages.

The additional safety of the D trigger system, and my ability to shoot the gun "well enough" are what has sold me on the D. It's the gun I'll be shooting at a carbine course in October, but I won't be shooting it in matches anymore.:cool:

[Luke]

What type of drills and what times(if you remember)?

[Luke]

Clobb, was it time or points that got you on the DAO?

[Clobbersaurus]

Clobb, was it time or points that got you on the DAO?

Both. Accuracy was an issue for me past 15 yards in that match and times on hoser stages were measurably slower. I can lose up to .10 on splits when shooting my 92D vs my Elite II. On longer courses of fire those increased split times hurt.

When doing range tests like the FAST or B8's at 25 yards I don't see as much a performance gap as I did in my match with it.

[GJM]

Clobber, good data.

Luke, can you get some P2000 LEM vs 320 data?

Ryan, before you can have a fully informed discussion of safety versus performance, it seems like you might want to quantify the objective performance difference to understand the trade offs between safety and performance?

[Luke]

I can. That means I'll have to practice with my P2000 though :( ain't nobody got time for that. I'll see what I can do. I need to get a blade tech shell for it so I can run the same holster.

[imp1295]

I can't go from 9 to 40. But I can go from LEM to striker. After about two years with the LEM I too realized that in my standard drills over the last year (Vickers and D/C 2R2) my times and accuracy were generally "better" with the G19 vs the P2000.

TLDR - I am faster and more accurate with a striker than a LEM.

Now, I need alot of work on everything. But, this is more of an exercise in tracking my progress than anything.

The G19 is set up with a warren green FO and the P2000 with Trij HDs with orange front. Initially, I thought my times were due to the "less" precision I feel with the trijicons. But, this is likely a personal issue as I know that GJM does pretty good with with HDs at distance.

To figure it out I looked through my log and set up an excel spreadsheet to look at my times. The target was one of Jays LSHD targets with the 6" circle for most drills. A miss was outside of the 6" target (sometimes not a miss) - If I had a score to the drill I actually used a B8 repair printout.

The G19 On a Vickers
5/22/2015 8.22 "1 miss low center"
9.31 95 3X

5/31/2015 88 1X - Cold
95 1X
7.64 90 2X

6/15/2015 8.11 91 2X
7.63 ?

9/25/2015 7.65 92 1X

3/24/2016 7.50 no score
8.33 Pass

4/15/2016 8.71 no score

4/21/2016 6.80 Pass - LSHD tgt

P2000
5/22/2015 92 -1X (M8)

9/15/2015 7.91

9/25/2015 7.65 5 outide bull Low left

10/13/2015 6.98 92 -0X

11/1/2015 6.58 84 - left bias
8.41 94 all black

11/13/2015 6.47
7.93 all in 6" LSHD circle

12/19/2015 par

4/15/2016 7.09 no score
9.51 3 miss

4/21/2016 8.93 1 miss -

What I realized is that I was faster, and more accurate - on the whole - with a G19. For the D/C 2R2 at 10yds, I thought at the beginning of the year that the ambi mag release of the P2000 would be quicker. I think this didn't prove true.

G19
7.63(2.44, .44, 4.25, .50) 10 Clean
6.48(2.30, .35, 3.39, .44) 10 Clean
7.46(2.65, .48, 3.67, .66) 10 Clean

P2000
7.68(2.17, .77, 3.70, 1.04) 10 2xmiss lo-center
7.48(2.26, .64, 3.58, 1.00) 10 1xmiss lo-center
8.89(2.43, .87, 4.39, 1.20) 10 1xmiss lo-center


oh, as an aside. I had been working with a P-07 since January. And, while my times were somewhat faster, My accuracy was really terrible. I mean like not even on the level with the P2000.

[GJM]

I can. That means I'll have to practice with my P2000 though :( ain't nobody got time for that. I'll see what I can do. I need to get a blade tech shell for it so I can run the same holster.


Practicing with the P2000 is good for you, remember she has a nice personality.

[GJM]

I can't go from 9 to 40. But I can go from LEM to striker. After about two years with the LEM I too realized that in my standard drills over the last year (Vickers and D/C 2R2) my times and accuracy were generally "better" with the G19 vs the P2000.

TLDR - I am faster and more accurate with a striker than a LEM.

Now, I need alot of work on everything. But, this is more of an exercise in tracking my progress than anything.

The G19 is set up with a warren green FO and the P2000 with Trij HDs with orange front. Initially, I thought my times were due to the "less" precision I feel with the trijicons. But, this is likely a personal issue as I know that GJM does pretty good with with HDs at distance.

To figure it out I looked through my log and set up an excel spreadsheet to look at my times. The target was one of Jays LSHD targets with the 6" circle for most drills. A miss was outside of the 6" target (sometimes not a miss) - If I had a score to the drill I actually used a B8 repair printout.

The G19 On a Vickers
5/22/2015 8.22 "1 miss low center"
9.31 95 3X

5/31/2015 88 1X - Cold
95 1X
7.64 90 2X

6/15/2015 8.11 91 2X
7.63 ?

9/25/2015 7.65 92 1X

3/24/2016 7.50 no score
8.33 Pass

4/15/2016 8.71 no score

4/21/2016 6.80 Pass - LSHD tgt

P2000
5/22/2015 92 -1X (M8)

9/15/2015 7.91

9/25/2015 7.65 5 outide bull Low left

10/13/2015 6.98 92 -0X

11/1/2015 6.58 84 - left bias
8.41 94 all black

11/13/2015 6.47
7.93 all in 6" LSHD circle

12/19/2015 par

4/15/2016 7.09 no score
9.51 3 miss

4/21/2016 8.93 1 miss -

What I realized is that I was faster, and more accurate - on the whole - with a G19. For the D/C 2R2 at 10yds, I thought at the beginning of the year that the ambi mag release of the P2000 would be quicker. I think this didn't prove true.

G19
7.63(2.44, .44, 4.25, .50) 10 Clean
6.48(2.30, .35, 3.39, .44) 10 Clean
7.46(2.65, .48, 3.67, .66) 10 Clean

P2000
7.68(2.17, .77, 3.70, 1.04) 10 2xmiss lo-center
7.48(2.26, .64, 3.58, 1.00) 10 1xmiss lo-center
8.89(2.43, .87, 4.39, 1.20) 10 1xmiss lo-center


oh, as an aside. I had been working with a P-07 since January. And, while my times were somewhat faster, My accuracy was really terrible. I mean like not even on the level with the P2000.


Thanks for the detailed data! Can you boil this down to a rough percentage difference between the 19 and P2000? I need to shoot a DA/SA P2000 to get that I to my mix, and try to tease out what is HK, and what is LEM.

[Luke]

Thanks for the detailed data! Can you boil this down to a rough percentage difference between the 19 and P2000? I need to shoot a DA/SA P2000 to get that I to my mix, and try to tease out what is HK, and what is LEM.

I can say for certain the difference for me between P2000 TDA and P2000 LEM is quite large. HK TDA is like 50 times harder than LEM.

[Mirolynmonbro]

I wish I had thought about bringing my 19 with me to compare with the P07 I've been shooting lately

[imp1295]

Thanks for the detailed data! Can you boil this down to a rough percentage difference between the 19 and P2000? I need to shoot a DA/SA P2000 to get that I to my mix, and try to tease out what is HK, and what is LEM.

George,

I'd have to really crunch numbers for a specific %.

But, just eyeballing my numbers for the vickers - with only 90+ counting, I am generally 10-15% faster for the same amount of accuracy.

And, for the D/C 2R2 at 10yds anywhere from 10-20% depending on when the data was pulled (last Aug after shooting the G19 in a Jeff Gonzales course my times were at the high end 20% faster with the same accuracy standard).

[breakingtime91]

What type of drills and what times(if you remember)?

So I kept quite a good data book and while the glock 19 ones are a little dates it should be alright for the spirit of this thread since I did mostly better with a glock ;)

glock 19 D5:

2.25 with a 1.34 first shot.

2.31 with a 1.41 first shot


P2000

2.34 with a 1.37 first shot
2.37 with a 1.41 first shot

"The test" from concealment
97/100 with g19 in 8.91

99/100 with a p2000 8.81

this is pretty average for me when I am keeping on my game, unfortunately lately I have not been able to do this on demand.

FAST:

G19 5.30 (don't have first or splits)
5.41

p2000
5.81
5.72

*all about those splits lol

[GJM]

I can say for certain the difference for me between P2000 TDA and P2000 LEM is quite large. HK TDA is like 50 times harder than LEM.

Luke, you need to harden the f up. :)

(Since these days I am posting for Darryl, I figure I can use his sayings.)

[breakingtime91]

Clobber, good data.

Luke, can you get some P2000 LEM vs 320 data?

Ryan, before you can have a fully informed discussion of safety versus performance, it seems like you might want to quantify the objective performance difference to understand the trade offs between safety and performance?

George, I think I have hit that point, I just agonized for a month if I should go back to a g19. The LEM is slower, it can be a pain in the ass to shoot well, but like you said the p2000 has a nice personality ;)

[Luke]

Your draw 5 times compared to your fast times seems way off. Where you using a really small target on the draw 5, or a long distance shot?

[GJM]

So I kept quite a good data book and while the glock 19 ones are a little dates it should be alright for the spirit of this thread since I did mostly better with a glock ;)

glock 19 D5:

2.25 with a 1.34 first shot.

2.31 with a 1.41 first shot


P2000

2.34 with a 1.37 first shot
2.37 with a 1.41 first shot

"The test" from concealment
97/100 with g19 in 8.91

99/100 with a p2000 8.81

this is pretty average for me when I am keeping on my game, unfortunately lately I have not been able to do this on demand.

FAST:

G19 5.30 (don't have first or splits)
5.41

p2000
5.81
5.72

*all about those splits lol

I know you are kidding, but I think we are all interested in good data a lot more than a specific outcome.

[breakingtime91]

I know you are kidding, but I think we are all interested in good data a lot more than a specific outcome.

I should be going to shoot with someone that has a glock in the near future, I may be able to run it again. I think I have become a significantly better shooter in the long run shooting different trigger types. I think the only one I have not put significant time behind is a dak and possibly a SAO like a 1911. A friend made a interesting observation when I was shooting drills like the test and modified tests at 15 and 20 yards. The LEM was holding me back to a specific speed but I was making ideal hits while being held back while his glock trigger was letting him out shoot his ability. That makes sense to me in a way because I am not able to run the trigger faster then I am able to see/track my sights. I see this while shooting bill drills to 6 inch circles, I may not be as fast as him shooting a glock but my accuracy and consistency is better. Who knows, I may be able to do that with a glock also.


Roland, from primary and secondary, said in one of their pod casts that a friend of his was obsessed with speed and beating Bob Vogal's times (which come on, get real guy) but his accuracy was shit. I found this interesting because I would get so mad when my range partner would out shoot me even though I was shooting only .3-4 slower but getting substantially better hits. So idk, I think for my skill level, which is what I consider middle of the pack on this forum, I have no real answer.

[breakingtime91]

Your draw 5 times compared to your fast times seems way off. Where you using a really small target on the draw 5, or a long distance shot?

Failed consistency with my 3x5 shots, my draw is shit honestly (mostly being hard on myself but my press out is no where near where I want it to be). With the D5 I am not sure what you mean, probably once again coming down to my confidence with my first shot. Constant issue that I am addressing. As a side note I have switched to 6 inch circles for my D5, still at 7 yards.


As a side note, I bought a 92a1 off of a member here recently and was smiling huge when I realized how fast I could run that trigger in SA with the wilson combat 14# hammer spring.

[GJM]

Hanging around PF for a few years, tends to make most here accuracy focused shooters. My biggest opportunity is speed, and it has taken me some effort to loosen my accuracy standards enough in practice to be able to work on increasing my speed.

[breakingtime91]

Hanging around PF for a few years, tends to make most here accuracy focused shooters. My biggest opportunity is speed, and it has taken me some effort to loosen my accuracy standards enough in practice to be able to work on increasing my speed.

I agree. I have really focused on accuracy lately but am looking into how to incorporate speed to increase both at the same time instead of increasing one vs the other.

[GJM]

I agree. I have really focused on accuracy lately but am looking into how to incorporate speed to increase both at the same time instead of increasing one vs the other.

Once you figure that out, let us know! There are a bunch of high level instructors that think when you are working accuracy you work accuracy and do t worry about speed, and when you are working speed you work speed without worrying about accuracy.

I wish my speed and accuracy always progressed equally, but unfortunately that hasn't been the case.

Back to an earlier post you made, regardless of what and how you carry, I think everyone needs at least one Glock 19 and a Blade Tech OWB holster. Like it or not, it is a Glock world, and for competition and a number of other pursuits, it is still an OWB world.

[Luke]

Shoot the 99 drill! Lots of speedy accuracy needed!


I just meant that a 5 second fast with both those guns is very fast. And your draw 5 is very slow lol. Your splits seemed a little slow for the glock, which I would have guessed that they would have been faster based on your LEM splits. That's why I asked about target size/distance. I was assuming A zone standards at 7 yards (think Bill drill) but a 6" circle does slow things down some.

[breakingtime91]

Shoot the 99 drill! Lots of speedy accuracy needed!


I just meant that a 5 second fast with both those guns is very fast. And your draw 5 is very slow lol. Your splits seemed a little slow for the glock, which I would have guessed that they would have been faster based on your LEM splits. That's why I asked about target size/distance. I was assuming A zone standards at 7 yards (think Bill drill) but a 6" circle does slow things down some.

I gotta say that I have made significant gains in tracking my sights since shooting a glock so that is probably why my D5 is slow lol. My fastest with the p2000 is 2.11 but I can't do it consistently clean so I don't count it. I have no idea how dudes are getting 2 second flat bill drills. My body/eyes just don't go that fast haha.

[Luke]

You should use the lower A at 7 and do a draw 6 :) that whole making your own drill up thing isn't cool man

[breakingtime91]

You should use the lower A at 7 and do a draw 6 :) that whole making your own drill up thing isn't cool man

So funny story that other, cough JHC cough, will remember. It drove me nuts that doing a classic Bill drill was 6 rounds and made tracking ammo/log book more difficult. D5 allowed me 10 runs per box of ammo :cool:

[BCL]

So funny story that other, cough JHC cough, will remember. It drove me nuts that doing a classic Bill drill was 6 rounds and made tracking ammo/log book more difficult. D5 allowed me 10 runs per box of ammo :cool:

If you are going to stick to your D5 drill and end up using the lower "A" zone, shoot for a 1.80 - the standard for a Bill Drill (1 sec draw, 5x .20 splits) minus one shot :).

George, great data in this thread, I am curious as to how much of the difference is HK and how much is LEM. I know that with the P series HKs, without GrayGuns magic, I can't shoot better than about a .25 split accurately. I've shot .19 splits with the super long reset and end up throwing rounds into the shoulder every time. This is with a P30L and a P2000 (although DA/SA so cheating I guess).

Next time I can get out to the range, I should be able to do some comparative testing between full size 9mm and .40 Glocks and 9mm and .40 LEM USPs. Not going to be able to set up your awesome array though, since local ranges are dumb.

[GJM]

I have a V1 P30L .40, and soon a USP 40 with a match hybrid LEM trigger, I would like to test, too. Subjectively the P30L seems to soften the .40 quite a bit.

[breakingtime91]

If you are going to stick to your D5 drill and end up using the lower "A" zone, shoot for a 1.80 - the standard for a Bill Drill (1 sec draw, 5x .20 splits) minus one shot :).

George, great data in this thread, I am curious as to how much of the difference is HK and how much is LEM. I know that with the P series HKs, without GrayGuns magic, I can't shoot better than about a .25 split accurately. I've shot .19 splits with the super long reset and end up throwing rounds into the shoulder every time. This is with a P30L and a P2000 (although DA/SA so cheating I guess).

Next time I can get out to the range, I should be able to do some comparative testing between full size 9mm and .40 Glocks and 9mm and .40 LEM USPs. Not going to be able to set up your awesome array though, since local ranges are dumb.

I'll let you know when I can hit 1.8 from concealment :p

[BCL]

I'll let you know when I can hit 1.8 from concealment :p

From concealment is no joke. That's like Gabe fast. If you can do that with a P2000 my hat is off to you [emoji3].

[EVP]

I am wanting to try this experiment but I want to keep things the same best as I can. I think running different platforms with different trigger systems does not isolate things enough in order to compare just the triggers as a variable. Of course there is not that many platforms that you could do this.

Thinking about running a vp9 10-8 rear and fiber up front against a p30 LEM 10-8 rear fiber up front. Also running the same side and back panel grip sizes. They are still not going to be the same but it rules out a lot more variables then running another platform. Unfortunately getting to the range especially a good range were I can run drills on a timer has proved to be challenging.


GJM, you still have a vp9 to compare to one of your p30 LEM? I remember you not being to fond of the vp9 once you ran it some.

[breakingtime91]

From concealment is no joke. That's like Gabe fast. If you can do that with a P2000 my hat is off to you [emoji3].

I think I would have to grab a tiger stripe shirt and 80's glasses to channel my inner Gabe.

[GJM]

I am wanting to try this experiment but I want to keep things the same best as I can. I think running different platforms with different trigger systems does not isolate things enough in order to compare just the triggers as a variable. Of course there is not that many platforms that you could do this.

Thinking about running a vp9 10-8 rear and fiber up front against a p30 LEM 10-8 rear fiber up front. Also running the same side and back panel grip sizes. They are still not going to be the same but it rules out a lot more variables then running another platform. Unfortunately getting to the range especially a good range were I can run drills on a timer has proved to be challenging.


GJM, you still have a vp9 to compare to one of your p30 LEM? I remember you not being to fond of the vp9 once you ran it some.

My VP9 is 2,500 miles away so you will have to do this one! I bet Darryl has some P30 vs VP9 data. Talionis is kicking butt with a VP9, so I have no doubt the VP9 can be shot as well as other good striker pistols.

Comparing my G19 to G23 results, it seems like I can shoot 9mm out of a similar platform about 12 percent better than .40. Leaving aside animals, does it seem logical that you want at least 12-15 percent better terminal ballistics performance out of .40 loads, to justify carrying .40 over 9mm?

[psalms144.1]

Comparing my G19 to G23 results, it seems like I can shoot 9mm out of a similar platform about 12 percent better than .40. Leaving aside animals, does it seem logical that you want at least 12-15 percent better terminal ballistics performance out of .40 loads, to justify carrying .40 over 9mm?Not to mention some math formula for reduction of capacity - G23 only holds 87% of the "more potent" rounds - so 12% less efficient and 13% fewer rounds - it would seem you'd need to justify a SIGNIFICANT "power" jump for that - hence the reason I don't have any .40 S&W pistols on my authorized personal weapons list, despite the fact that we're a .40 S&W agency...

[BaiHu]

Caveat: I'm an okay shooter.

As someone who has been fighting the P30 LEM (9mm/heavy TRS) vs G19 (stock) urge lately, I can say that for me, it looks like this:

1. I shoot the P30 more accurately when I'm shooting for groups with no time constraint.
2. I shoot the G19 more accurately when it comes to groups at speed.
3. I have 6 years behind the P30 and 2+ of those 6 behind the LEM.
4. I have less than 6 months behind the G19 and I can almost out shoot the P30 in every way except slow fire groups.

In conclusion, what's tough for me is the following:
1. I prefer the grip angle better on the G19 for all sight tracking work at speed. Both have orange HD Trijicons.
2. I prefer tracking slow fire on the P30. Meaning the G19 urges me to shoot faster than I can when I'm going for tight, untimed work. All of this is obviously on me.
3. My groups at speed, like a 5x5x5 or a Vicker's 10x10x10, are much tighter shooting the G19.

My perfect blend would be everything G19 with a short trigger break/reset of the 19 and the rolling 'feel' of the LEM. Sorry no data right now. Too tough on phone.

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[psalms144.1]

I can say that for me, it looks like this:

1. I shoot the P30 more accurately when I'm shooting for groups with no time constraint.
2. I shoot the G19 more accurately when it comes to groups at speed.
4. I have less than 6 months behind the G19 and I can almost out shoot the P30 in every way except slow fire groups.

In conclusion, what's tough for me is the following:
1. I prefer the grip angle better on the G19 for all sight tracking work at speed.
3. My groups at speed, like a 5x5x5 or a Vicker's 10x10x10, are much tighter shooting the G19.

My perfect blend would be everything G19 with a short trigger break/reset of the 19 and the rolling 'feel' of the LEM.
Y'all are familiar with my venture into LEM land back in the 2012-2014 timeframe after ragequitting GLOCKS. My experience PRECISELY matches what you've posted. P2000 with TLG LEM is significantly more mechanically accurate, and I can use that to my advantage when time constraints are generous (e.g. shooting our qual, consistent 300/300 with the P2K, versus 290ish with the G19). The LEM trigger can be "raped" as someone else put it just as fast as the G19's trigger - I shot the splits to prove it. HOWEVER, the P2000 can't be RUN at that speed without a significant decrease in accuracy results. The "a hah!" moment for me was, after nearly 2 years with the P2000, I shot the FAST with it, then with my G19, and DESTROYED my P2000 performance with the pistol I hadn't touched, literally, in several years. There's just no denying, the G19 is easier to shoot well on drills that have real time constraints.

This all goes back to the fundamental issue, though. I quit the GLOCK because of reliability issues with a string of G19s - and I found the LEM-equipped P2000 to fill the size/weight niche that I love for my daily plain clothes carry. I also believe, like Darryl, that the LEM is a MUCH better "people management" trigger, and did my work involve holding folks at gun point routinely, I think I'd be willing to give up the speed of the G19 for the "safety" of the P2000. I don't carry AIWB, so that's not an issue for me, but, if I did, I'd probably prefer the LEM trigger and exposed hammer (though "Soon" [TM] that issue might be somewhat mitigated).

Lastly, I don't feel the LEM has a "rolling break" at all - at least on my pistol it's a lightweight take up, to a hard "wall" that has to be powered through - and what caused me no end of "lowitis" until I learned the trigger really well. The best trigger I've ever had on a GLOCK was the Ghost EVO - it had a true rolling break, and the overtravel reduction was a big help in fighting "leftitis." I got rid of it, eventually, as well, over my own super-conservative stance on what I'm willing to carry (and possibly defend) in a duty pistol...

[BaiHu]

Y'all are familiar with my venture into LEM land back in the 2012-2014 timeframe after ragequitting GLOCKS. My experience PRECISELY matches what you've posted. P2000 with TLG LEM is significantly more mechanically accurate, and I can use that to my advantage when time constraints are generous (e.g. shooting our qual, consistent 300/300 with the P2K, versus 290ish with the G19). The LEM trigger can be "raped" as someone else put it just as fast as the G19's trigger - I shot the splits to prove it. HOWEVER, the P2000 can't be RUN at that speed without a significant decrease in accuracy results. The "a hah!" moment for me was, after nearly 2 years with the P2000, I shot the FAST with it, then with my G19, and DESTROYED my P2000 performance with the pistol I hadn't touched, literally, in several years. There's just no denying, the G19 is easier to shoot well on drills that have real time constraints.

This all goes back to the fundamental issue, though. I quit the GLOCK because of reliability issues with a string of G19s - and I found the LEM-equipped P2000 to fill the size/weight niche that I love for my daily plain clothes carry. I also believe, like Darryl, that the LEM is a MUCH better "people management" trigger, and did my work involve holding folks at gun point routinely, I think I'd be willing to give up the speed of the G19 for the "safety" of the P2000. I don't carry AIWB, so that's not an issue for me, but, if I did, I'd probably prefer the LEM trigger and exposed hammer (though "Soon" [TM] that issue might be somewhat mitigated).

Lastly, I don't feel the LEM has a "rolling break" at all - at least on my pistol it's a lightweight take up, to a hard "wall" that has to be powered through - and what caused me no end of "lowitis" until I learned the trigger really well. The best trigger I've ever had on a GLOCK was the Ghost EVO - it had a true rolling break, and the overtravel reduction was a big help in fighting "leftitis." I got rid of it, eventually, as well, over my own super-conservative stance on what I'm willing to carry (and possibly defend) in a duty pistol...
Were you running a light TRS? I had this problem until I put the heavy TRS in last year. Much better but not G19 better.

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[psalms144.1]

Nope, pistol has then "standard" now "heavy" TRS. Only thing I swapped out was the FPBS for the lighter version.

[BaiHu]

Nope, pistol has then "standard" now "heavy" TRS. Only thing I swapped out was the FPBS for the lighter version.

Mmm, I don't have a lighter FPBS, so I'm not sure how that works, but my 'wall' doesn't seem that hard on the heavy TRS as it did with the lighter/V1 spring. When was the last time you replaced your TRS?

[EVP]

Psalm 144 Haven't you been experimenting with a vp9? Curious to see your finding with it vs your other guns(p2000 LEM and g19)

[psalms144.1]

Mmm, I don't have a lighter FPBS, so I'm not sure how that works, but my 'wall' doesn't seem that hard on the heavy TRS as it did with the lighter/V1 spring. When was the last time you replaced your TRS?Ummm, never? :)

[psalms144.1]

Psalm 144 Haven't you been experimenting with a vp9? Curious to see your finding with it vs your other guns(p2000 LEM and g19)Yes, I'm in dabble mode with the VP9 right now. Out of the box, accuracy is spectacular, MUCH better than any Glock of any caliber I've ever shot, and on-par with my 1911s. I had a disappointing day on the range last week though, and my performance on basic timed drills was very sub par; though that's almost certainly due to (a) my lack of range time (I HATE NY!!!) and (b) my lack of familiarity with the VP9 (after being basically a G19-shooter for most of the last decade...) I intend to dedicate a year to shooting the VP9 in everything and only shooting required qualifications with the G19, and see where I end up.

[Luke]

Psalms, it's time to start a training journal!

[GJM]

psalms144.1 and BaiHu, leaving aside untimed bullseye, can you estimate a percentage difference in your performance between the LEM and striker trigger on timed drills?

If I wanted to learn a lot about shooting a VP9, I would get a hold of PF member Talionis, as he transitioned from a CZ to the VP9, as an HK sponsored shooter, and was shooting the VP9 at a very high level.

[psalms144.1]

Psalms, it's time to start a training journal!Dude - that sounds like work... ugh.

Seriously, my (in)frequency of access to a range would make a journal into "War and Peace" before I hit 1,000 rounds.

[BaiHu]

psalms144.1 and BaiHu, leaving aside untimed bullseye, can you estimate a percentage difference in your performance between the LEM and striker trigger on timed drills?

If I wanted to learn a lot about shooting a VP9, I would get a hold of PF member Talionis, as he transitioned from a CZ to the VP9, as an HK sponsored shooter, and was shooting the VP9 at a very high level.
5x5x5 P30 concealed JRC
1) 4.03C 47 1x: 1.94/58/49/53/49
2) 3.59C 46 0x: 1.97/42/42/38/40
3) 3.55C 48 1x: 2.17/39/33/33/33
I've gotten my P30 down to a 3.03 once lately, but took me 5 tries.
Same G19 JMCK
1) -1.5 (split the line)? A bit crappy: 2.91: 1.70/35/31/29/26
2) 2.56 C: 1.52/32/26/24/22

10x10x10 P30 concealed JRC
1) 8.75 -3 90 2x: 2.67/73/72/65/63/63/63/69/73/67
2) 8.11 -8 72 1x: 2.41/74/74/66/57/55/51/56/60/77
Same G19 JMCK
1) 88 1x 5.98 seconds: 1.95/48/48/45/47/44/42/41/40/48
2) 90 0X 5.68 seconds: 1.76/46/46/46/43/43/42/46/42/41

I believe all of the above are my "best scores" for both to this date running back to Nov of 2015 until this past Sunday.

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[BCL]

5x5x5 P30 concealed JRC
1) 4.03C 47 1x: 1.94/58/49/53/49
2) 3.59C 46 0x: 1.97/42/42/38/40
3) 3.55C 48 1x: 2.17/39/33/33/33
I've gotten my P30 down to a 3.03 once lately, but took me 5 tries.
Same G19 JMCK
1) -1.5 (split the line)? A bit crappy: 2.91: 1.70/35/31/29/26
2) 2.56 C: 1.52/32/26/24/22

10x10x10 P30 concealed JRC
1) 8.75 -3 90 2x: 2.67/73/72/65/63/63/63/69/73/67
2) 8.11 -8 72 1x: 2.41/74/74/66/57/55/51/56/60/77
Same G19 JMCK
1) 88 1x 5.98 seconds: 1.95/48/48/45/47/44/42/41/40/48
2) 90 0X 5.68 seconds: 1.76/46/46/46/43/43/42/46/42/41

I believe all of the above are my "best scores" for both to this date running back to Nov of 2015 until this past Sunday.

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Those are some significant time differences! Are the time differences on your overall averages between the G19 and P30 LEM roughly the same?

[psalms144.1]

psalms144.1 and BaiHu, leaving aside untimed bullseye, can you estimate a percentage difference in your performance between the LEM and striker trigger on timed drills?

If I wanted to learn a lot about shooting a VP9, I would get a hold of PF member Talionis, as he transitioned from a CZ to the VP9, as an HK sponsored shooter, and was shooting the VP9 at a very high level.George - it's been a while (a couple of years, at this point), but, if I had to put a number on it, I would say my FAST was about 25% "worse" with the LEM over the G19 - I either had to slow WAY down, or I dropped a disturbing number of shots.

I'm not sure, however, that that performance was SOLELY trigger based - I find the P2000 to be much "flippier" in my hands than the G19; so that definitely led to some misses high as I didn't allow the sights to fully settle (trying to outrun my headlights again). And this takes me back to my point about the usability of the LEM trigger, I NEVER found that it took longer to reset and prep the trigger for a follow up then it did for the sights to be back on target and properly aligned. So, for ME, the speed limit was recoil-control related, not trigger related (at least to some extent).

And, while the time standards are generous on the qualification, they DO exist, and are at least a slight sense of pressure. On quals, I routinely shot 3-4% better with the P2000 than the G19.

But, when all is said and done, I'm by nature a "speed" guy, and the Glock lets me hit the speeds I want when I'm playing and having fun, whereas the P2000 doesn't. Whether that's a valid decision making criteria or not, it is what it is, and has put the G19 back in my holster for the time being (unless that VP9 unseats it!)

Regards,

Kevin

[BaiHu]

Those are some significant time differences! Are the time differences on your overall averages between the G19 and P30 LEM roughly the same?
I'd say on my best day, with lots of warm up, I'd be able to close some of the gaps to 10-15% average. My problem is the "eye energy" necessary you track the P30 over the G19. I just feel like I'm constantly reeling in the recoil on the P30 and I'm enjoying the recoil in the G19.

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[JAD]

If you all wanted to really isolate the variable of the trigger it would seem like you'd want to compare the VP9 to the P30. Differences in angle, sights, grip shape, and texture could matter.

[GJM]

George - it's been a while (a couple of years, at this point), but, if I had to put a number on it, I would say my FAST was about 25% "worse" with the LEM over the G19 - I either had to slow WAY down, or I dropped a disturbing number of shots.

I'm not sure, however, that that performance was SOLELY trigger based - I find the P2000 to be much "flippier" in my hands than the G19; so that definitely led to some misses high as I didn't allow the sights to fully settle (trying to outrun my headlights again). And this takes me back to my point about the usability of the LEM trigger, I NEVER found that it took longer to reset and prep the trigger for a follow up then it did for the sights to be back on target and properly aligned. So, for ME, the speed limit was recoil-control related, not trigger related (at least to some extent).

And, while the time standards are generous on the qualification, they DO exist, and are at least a slight sense of pressure. On quals, I routinely shot 3-4% better with the P2000 than the G19.

But, when all is said and done, I'm by nature a "speed" guy, and the Glock lets me hit the speeds I want when I'm playing and having fun, whereas the P2000 doesn't. Whether that's a valid decision making criteria or not, it is what it is, and has put the G19 back in my holster for the time being (unless that VP9 unseats it!)

Regards,

Kevin

It is interesting the difference between the FAST difference and the relatively small difference on your qual. Is the qual fairly generous with fixed time components?

[Luke]

Somebody needs to modify s glock to have a LEM trigger pull.

[BCL]

I'd say on my best day, with lots of warm up, I'd be able to close some of the gaps to 10-15% average. My problem is the "eye energy" necessary you track the P30 over the G19. I just feel like I'm constantly reeling in the recoil on the P30 and I'm enjoying the recoil in the G19.

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I've noticed the same thing between HKs (non-LEM) and Glocks. I don't think it's necessarily bore axis related either, as I don't see the issue with Berettas. What is weird to me is that, when shooting side by side, the perceived recoil feels less on a P30/P2000 than a Glock, but I can definitely run a Glock significantly faster when time constraints are applied.

[GJM]

If you all wanted to really isolate the variable of the trigger it would seem like you'd want to compare the VP9 to the P30. Differences in angle, sights, grip shape, and texture could matter.

or a LEM to a DA/SA of the same model P30 or P2000?

[BCL]

Somebody needs to modify s glock to have a LEM trigger pull.

Maybe the Darryl Special with extra pre-travel? It might be similar to the LEM 4.1.

[BCL]

or a LEM to a DA/SA of the same model P30 or P2000?


That is something I would like to see. I'm 99.9% sure a VP9 would win over either, but the differences between LEM and DA/SA on the same model would probably isolate just the trigger enough to get some reasonably scientific data. If only there was a person on this board who had both and maybe 100k of LEM experience to weigh in...:)

[psalms144.1]

It is interesting the difference between the FAST difference and the relatively small difference on your qual. Is the qual fairly generous with fixed time components?The qual target is HUGE - think, larger than man-sized. I'm 6'1", 250#, and when I stand in front of the target, you can still see blue (score-able area) behind me. But, my qualification groups are tighter with the P2000 than the G19, so it's not the target; it's the time. Again, there's plenty of time on our qual to let the P2000 run through recoil, get the sights properly aligned, and press off the following shot.

There's plenty of time (and target) to do the same with the G19, I just tend to rush through it. I've shot more than my share of 300s with the G19 (last year I went 9 straight qual runs with 300s on each qual before I broke the streak). When I rush things at the 25 yard line, I tend to push shots left and out of the 5. I also intentionally aim high chest, which is NOT center of mass on our target, so left-right dispersion is more problematic than if I was a belly shooter like they want me to be (based on the target).

[Hauptmann]

I have done 9mm vs .40 tests myself on speed and accuracy using DA/SA Sig P228 and P229. I think the key to really show the differences is to dance between multiple targets that force the shooter to shift their bodies and shoot in less than ideal grips and stances. My results were much more dramatic resulting in the me shooting the 9mm 30% more accurately, and about 20% faster. I was already using the P229 .40 regularly, so I was used to the way it handled and it represented the "control".

So yeah, from any logical standpoint there is no benefit to using the .40 over the 9mm, unless the .40 had some measurable improvement in terminal effects. Even then though, isn't accuracy king?......and I shoot the 9mm considerably more accurately?

[TheNewbie]

Does the V1 LEM significantly make shooting the LEM easier? I spent a decent amount of time with V2 and I never felt like I got it down.

In theory the LEM is my ideal trigger, but reality does not always agree.

[BaiHu]

Does the V1 LEM significantly make shooting the LEM easier? I spent a decent amount of time with V2 and I never felt like I got it down.

In theory the LEM is my ideal trigger, but reality does not always agree.
For me, I found that the light TRS was more difficult, because it exaggerated "the wall" and exacerbated a speed change/jerk. User error? Sure, but the heavy TRS drastically reduced the problem.

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[john c]

Comparing my G19 to G23 results, it seems like I can shoot 9mm out of a similar platform about 12 percent better than .40. Leaving aside animals, does it seem logical that you want at least 12-15 percent better terminal ballistics performance out of .40 loads, to justify carrying .40 over 9mm?

As Psalms pointed out, the G23 holds 13% fewer rounds than the G19. Adding the 12% reduction in speed, and 13% reduction in capacity, the .40 should provide 25% better terminal ballistics to EQUAL the 9mm in the Glock platform. We should expect the .40 to exceed the 25% difference to justify the change, in the Glock platform.

A couple of things that stand out to me:

1)capacity only matters in cases where more than 14 rounds (in the case of a g23) are fired. Is this realistic?

2)is the 12% reduction in speed only for few rounds? What is the speed difference in a 14 round course of fire? Is it greater than 12-15%?

Perhaps my calculation including the 13% capacity decrease is less of a factor than shown, considering that a complete mag dump is unlikely in a defensive shooting.

I'm also keenly interested in seeing a DA/SA P30 vs. LEM P30 vs. VP9 by a highly skilled shooter. GJM, are you interested? :D

[GJM]

Since I know what truly highly skilled is, I wouldn't refer to myself as a highly skilled shooter. However, I do own a DA/SA and LEM P2000 .40.

[BCL]

Since I know what truly highly skilled is, I wouldn't refer to myself as a highly skilled shooter. However, I do own a DA/SA and LEM P2000 .40.

Aren't you like top 5 nationally in Carry Optics? :) I'm interested to see the results.

[Talionis]

Yes, I'm in dabble mode with the VP9 right now. Out of the box, accuracy is spectacular, MUCH better than any Glock of any caliber I've ever shot, and on-par with my 1911s. I had a disappointing day on the range last week though, and my performance on basic timed drills was very sub par; though that's almost certainly due to (a) my lack of range time (I HATE NY!!!) and (b) my lack of familiarity with the VP9 (after being basically a G19-shooter for most of the last decade...) I intend to dedicate a year to shooting the VP9 in everything and only shooting required qualifications with the G19, and see where I end up.

In transitioning to the VP9, I discovered that it was a bit more sensitive to grip pressure and angle than the Glocks and CZ's I used to shoot as far as sight tracking goes.

The trigger is different enough that I have seen some primarily Glock shooters struggle with the VP9 initially when shooting at speed. I tend to treat the trigger on a VP9 similarly to the way I do a 1911 trigger in that I will either slap it straight back or prep to the wall and break the shot upon correct sight alignment, depending on the difficulty of the shot and the speed required. That is in direct contrast to the way I shot Glocks or even LEM guns, which was to essentially "row through" the full trigger press for each shot at varying speed.

[Luke]

Aren't you like top 5 nationally in Carry Optics? :) I'm interested to see the results.

12th nationally ranked :)

[GJM]

Aren't you like top 5 nationally in Carry Optics? :) I'm interested to see the results.


12th nationally ranked :)

Oh man, you guys are tough! I was #4 when the May update came out, mostly because of how few people were doing it. On an initial classification, they use your best 4 of your most recent 6. When June came out, they go to standard rules of best 6 of your 8, and since I haven't shot a match with a classifier since late April, my percentage went down. That is my story and I am sticking to it!

[CCT125US]

For me, I found that the light TRS was more difficult, because it exaggerated "the wall" and exacerbated a speed change/jerk. User error? Sure, but the heavy TRS drastically reduced the problem.

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Interesting thing, after years of use with the P30 v3(cumulative round count 85K), I went to the P30 v1(cumulative round count 6833), then to the P2000 v2 (cumulative round count 6664). Currently, I much prefer the P2000 v2, at speed the "wall" seems to disappear. I did try a heavy TRS in the P30 and it did not produce the same results, so there are certainly other factors at play. Interesting note regarding capacity, I am guilty of not always carrying a spare mag. At the tail end of my P30 days I never did. The P2000 with 14 rounds on board is right at the threshold of enough for me. However, I am more likely to carry a spare with the P2000, so in reality I have 29 rounds on me, vs. 16 with the P30.

[GJM]

Interesting thing, after years of use with the P30 v3(cumulative round count 85K), I went to the P30 v1(cumulative round count 6833), then to the P2000 v2 (cumulative round count 6664). Currently, I much prefer the P2000 v2, at speed the "wall" seems to disappear. I did try a heavy TRS in the P30 and it did not produce the same results, so there are certainly other factors at play. Interesting note regarding capacity, I am guilty of not always carrying a spare mag. At the tail end of my P30 days I never did. The P2000 with 14 rounds on board is right at the threshold of enough for me. However, I am more likely to carry a spare with the P2000, so in reality I have 29 rounds on me, vs. 16 with the P30.

I can't remember carrying less than one spare magazine. The reason is, if something happened and my wife had to save me, I would never hear the end of it from certain PF members, who are my friends.

[CCT125US]

I can't remember carrying less than one spare magazine. The reason is, if something happened and my wife had to save me, I would never hear the end of it from certain PF members, who are my friends.
Believe me I know. Somethings are hard for a man to admit.

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[BaiHu]

One of the things I'm going to try, with any luck this weekend, is to increase the back strap and side panels. Normally I'm small on all 3, but in trying to make it feel more like my G19, I dry fired a bunch with med sides and large back strap. It'll be interesting to see.

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[GJM]

One of the things I'm going to try, with any luck this weekend, is to increase the back strap and side panels. Normally I'm small on all 3, but in trying to make it feel more like my G19, I dry fired a bunch with med sides and large back strap. It'll be interesting to see.

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I messed around quite a bit on this on my P30L V1 .40, in consultation with YVK. I (and he) settled on large rear and medium left and right. Large rear definitely helps me press the trigger straight back.

[BaiHu]

I messed around quite a bit on this on my P30L V1 .40, in consultation with YVK. I (and he) settled on large rear and medium left and right. Large rear definitely helps me press the trigger straight back.
That gives me hope. Thx!

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[Mr_White]

The trigger is different enough that I have seen some primarily Glock shooters struggle with the VP9 initially when shooting at speed

That's very interesting. I've shot a VP9 on two occasions when they happened to come through our basic pistol class - so not very much. Anyway, I remember thinking the trigger 'felt good', but when I actually shot it, having to give quite a bit more effort than I thought I would to avoid jerking it.

[Cincinnatus]

That is something I would like to see. I'm 99.9% sure a VP9 would win over either, but the differences between LEM and DA/SA on the same model would probably isolate just the trigger enough to get some reasonably scientific data. If only there was a person on this board who had both and maybe 100k of LEM experience to weigh in...:)

Dr. No has such experience.

[GJM]

Dr. No has such experience.

Last I heard, he went over to the dark side, with a minor caliber, Limited, cheater gun. Think he remembers anything about an HK? :)

[HCM]

Last I heard, he went over to the dark side, with a minor caliber, Limited, cheater gun. Think he remembers anything about an HK? :)

He is running a 2011 in 3 gun but he was wearing a VP-9 last time I saw him.

[EVP]

Dr. No has such experience.

I remember reading that he was 10-15% better then with the p30L. He did not get into any details but said the gun shot flatter and was more predictable.

[DEG]

Great thread topic. I started my online journal almost exactly a year ago and have pretty much shot either a P30 LEM or a G4G19 on timed and accuracy drills on a weekly basis.

I'm still new at this, and part of the reason I started the online journal was an attempt to force some discipline into my training and focus on a single type of pistol - either the P30 or the G19. However, I apparently lack discipline. I like both pistols so much, and for such different reasons, that I still end up shooting both on a pretty regular basis. No excuse, other than I enjoy it. I do have some data to suggest that I shoot them at about the same skill level at this point.

On Oct 25 I posted FAST tables that summarized drill times for each pistol over three dates in July, August, and October (about middle of the page, here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16659-DEG-s-Journal/page4). I essentially shot them both the same in terms of total times and splits, although I had almost 2x the number of clean runs with the P30. It's still pretty common for me to outshoot my sight picture with the G19, and that rarely happens with the P30.

On Feb 15 I posted my first Bill Drill comparisons for the two pistols from nine runs each (mid-page, here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16659-DEG-s-Journal/page7). Average times were identical, and accuracy was about the same with a slight edge going to the G19.

I haven't gone back through my records to date tallying my Dot Torture scores or recent 25 yard results by pistol type, but I might do that at some point. My gut feeling regarding what I would find? I figure they will be about the same.

Not sure what to make of this yet, but possibly 1) for the average shooter there won't be much of a difference between the P30 and G19 on timed and accuracy results once you are somewhat practiced at shooting them both; 2) when you regularly alternate between the two pistols on the same drills, it's a race to mediocrity with both; 3) the timed and accuracy differences may become more apparent when overall shooting skill improves by focusing on one pistol exclusively for an extended period of time; or 4) all of the above.

I am still determined to pick one over the other and focus on it for the next year, I just don't know which one it will be yet :)

[GJM]

I remember reading that he was 10-15% better then with the p30L. He did not get into any details but said the gun shot flatter and was more predictable.

Tom Jones, thanks for that search function!

"Runs circles around them (P30L) in every way"


https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19697-H-amp-K-insanity-why-do-I-need-a-P30L-if-I-have-a-VP9/page2


Sent from my iPad

[SteveB]

12th nationally ranked :)

Out of 13 :cool:

[Luke]

Out of 13 :cool:

Shut your mouth right meow! Theres more than that! Just last week I saw on Enos some place had 9 CO shooters!

[GJM]

Out of 13 :cool:


Shut your mouth right meow! Theres more than that! Just last week I saw on Enos some place had 9 CO shooters!

Luke, I understand, being a gamerfag.*

SteveB I have known twenty years, so I really understand.

* gamerfag is a word invented by Tam, and I believe she TM'd it

[TCB]

Seems like you guys experience with these things mirrors mine. I'm issued a P2000 LEM in .40 that I run with a X300U, my main training pistol is a VP9 with an X300U and I was shooting a VP40 in LTD USPSA last year...

I went to the P2000 from being a 1911 guy. At one point I ended up buying a G19 off a buddy. It shot good but didn't point great for me, I swapped it for a M&P9FS that worked a lot better for me untill the VP9 came out.

Between the P2000 (in 40) and the VP40 it's not even close as to what I can run better, the striker fired trigger is dramatically more "shootable" and if you do your part both of these pistols can be very accurate. Between the VP40 and the VP9 I'm able to run the 9 faster & just as accurately, with the extra capacity and minimal performance difference these days I'd rather roll with a 9 (apparently my Agency is going that way so..yay).

I think the LEM is good for when you are pointing a gun at people (although I usually have an M-4 in my hands so my P2000 is really a secondary for me) but, if I actually need to shoot a striker fired trigger is what I'd rather have. For me a P30L with the light LEM would probably be ideal as a secondary? I've seen that hammer come back out of the corner of my eye and it was a visual indicator that things just got really real...would a striker fired trigger have given me a different outcome? No idea...

Seems like everyone agrees that a striker fired pistol in 9mm is the most shootable thing available and if we can keep our fingers off the triggers unles we are shooting just as safe as a LEM. I guess it's just a matter of what your mission is...do you shoot more or point more? And are you willing to give up the benefits of the other system for the benefits of the one you are useing?

That being said I just bought a 2011 in .40 for LTD and am going back to shooting my 1911 in SS this year...

[JTQ]

I went to the P2000 from being a 1911 guy. At one point I ended up buying a G19 off a buddy. It shot good but didn't point great for me, I swapped it for a M&P9FS that worked a lot better for me untill the VP9 came out.

That being said I just bought a 2011 in .40 for LTD and am going back to shooting my 1911 in SS this year...
Where does the M&P9FS fit in the "shoot-ability" picture for you?

[TCB]

I had 2 both with APEX internals and loved them, one had a Storm Lake barrel in it and it was very accurate. I wanted a training gun with the same magazine release as my work gun so when the VP9 came out I grabbed one. For my hand the VP feels better and I shaved off time on my El Prez with the HK paddle over the std button...if I didn't carry a H&K at work I'd never have looked at the VP and most likely would have stuck with the M&P (mine all ran well?).

Rumor has it we are going to switch to 9 and from what I've heard the VP, 320 & Glock are in the running...whatever we go to I'll dump (or keep it if we go to it) the VP9 and buy a bunch of whatever we go with. I'd be fine with any of them (but am pulling for the VP as I shoot it best) but any of the current crop of polymer 9's are light years better than my P2000 in .40.

[taadski]

Out of 13 :cool:

LOL.

Uniform shirt with new coffee stains....