Mace, pepper spray, etc.

[Shellback]

I'm looking for recommendations on what people have found to be the most effective in terms of non-lethal irritant sprays. Currently my wife has been carrying Sabre Red on her walks with the dog but would also like another can for the car and the baby buggy.

Are there other brands that are superior to the Sabre Red that I should be contemplating purchasing?

[HeadHunter]

A friend of mine has sprayed over a dozen hooligans with Fox and all found it sufficiently unpleasant to discontinue their anti-social activities.

[JDM]

I've used fox 5.3 on 1 drunk retard and it was magnificently ineffective. Sample of one and all but still a sample.

[Shellback]

Sounds like Fox is worth checking out ;)

[Al T.]

Irish, the SCHP likes the Sabre. I keep a Kimber Pepper Blaster in the truck for places I have to disarm. I like it better than spray for keeping in the truck, no issue with heat.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/1825.php

[HeadHunter]

I like it better than spray for keeping in the truck, no issue with heat.

The unit I keep in my vehicle is a stream unit from Fox. I don't want that stuff flying around in the cabin.

[Coyotesfan97]

It's hard to beat Sabre products. I've sprayed a lot of folks with it and I can only remember one failure. I have Sabre 5.0 on my belt and a MK9 fogger of Sabre Red 10% in my pursuit case. That works great! I've convinced a number of suspects that they should come out of their hiding places with it.

[VolGrad]

Saw Shelley post a little experiment of the Kimber stuff my was previously carrying (the one with the trigger and two shots) vs the Sabre RED stuff on this link.

http://www.sabrered.com/servlet/the-125/NBCF-PINK-Pepper-Spray/Detail

The post was on Gun Nuts Media but I can't find it now. Sorry.

Anyway, I purchased this pink one for the wife and a black one for myself. They sell a kit with the keychain and a inert practice canister so you can play with it a bit to get comfortable with the spray and how to use it.

[jlw]

One thing to note about pepper spray is that if you use it once the attack has begun you might as well spray yourself in the face with it too.

If you are going to use it, do so before the physical attack begins and escape.

[Al T.]

Saw Shelley post a little experiment

What were her thoughts? I've carried cans of spray, but like the Kimber product. I purchased the trainer for the Kimber and was impressed.

[Al T.]

VolG., nevermind, found it.

http://gunnuts.net/2011/10/21/effective-pepper-spray/

The Kimber is a device you have to aim like a handgun, not a can of spray. I was able to cover a paper plate at about 12 feet with both blasts. Shelly's failure to adjust her point of aim invalidated the "test".

[phil_in_cs]

I've used fox 5.3 on 1 drunk retard and it was magnificently ineffective. Sample of one and all but still a sample.

Paul Gomez told me once that pepper spray will get you a blink, and the blink gives you the ability to take the initiative in the situation. If you count on it for more than that you will be disappointed sometimes. Sometimes it will do more than a blink, but you shouldn't count on it.

[Shellback]

Paul Gomez told me once that pepper spray will get you a blink, and the blink gives you the ability to take the initiative in the situation. If you count on it for more than that you will be disappointed sometimes. Sometimes it will do more than a blink, but you shouldn't count on it.

I've told my wife if she were ever to have to spray someone the next thing to do is to haul ass and get somewhere safe! Don't worry about them yelling, crying, snot running, hopefully they're on the ground writhing in pain, etc. and she's an avid runner who takes instruction well.

I've also purchased one of the PepperBall Hotshots (http://www.pepperball.com/personal/hotshot.html) for her and she came to the conclusion that she didn't like it after firing the test shots that came with it. The spray would seem to be more effective as you can "walk" the stream into your assailant if need be more than just a cloud of chemicals being shot at them.

Thank you for everyone's input thus far.

[DonovanM]

What were her thoughts? I've carried cans of spray, but like the Kimber product. I purchased the trainer for the Kimber and was impressed.

http://gunnuts.net/2011/10/21/effective-pepper-spray/

[KeeFus]

I've sprayed a lot of people over the past 16 years. The very first suspect I sprayed was with CapStun (http://www.zarc.com/pepperspray/ProductDesc.aspx?code=Z-305&type=4&eq=&desc=CapStun-Pepper-Spray-Z-305-Standard-Duty)...he was very intoxicated and looked at me and stated "Spray me again you M-Fer". I quickly went to hard handed techniques. The problem with CapStun is it fogs...EVERYBODY! This was before we carried ASP batons or Tazers...I still have no use for a Tazer even though it's offered at my agency.

Now we use First Defense (http://www.defense-technology.com/products.aspx?pid=56825), which is what most agencies around here carry. Very effective. The last guy I sprayed with it fell immediately to the ground.

Some of this stuff may be LEO only so I'd find the commercial equilevant with between 5,000,000 - 5,300,000 Scovill Heat Units (SHU).

[Shellback]

Now we use First Defense (http://www.defense-technology.com/products.aspx?pid=56825), which is what most agencies around here carry. Very effective. The last guy I sprayed with it fell immediately to the ground.

Some of this stuff may be LEO only so I'd find the commercial equilevant with between 5,000,000 - 5,300,000 Scovill Heat Units (SHU).

A quick Google and it appears that it shouldn't an issue to order the stuff online. What are people's thoughts about the foam? Better just going with the stream or cone? For a woman protecting themselves I would think the "cone" type of spray would probably be the most effective as their aim wouldn't be as critical. However, that also brings about problems of dispersion as well. Please correct me or help educate me if I'm off base here.

[CK1]

The foam is bad news IMO, anyone who's been sprayed before or even semi-trained will wipe it off as fast as they can as the OC/CS doesn't act until enough of the foam carrier evaporates... actually the trained defensive response to foam agents is to try to throw it or smear it right back onto whomever initiated the spray in the first place...

I'd recommend sticking to a simple stream, and going with Freeze + P or Sabre Red, I've been "certified" (sprayed) with both and they're both fairly ugly and about even in their effectiveness, IF you get a good application and IF you get a positive response, ALL sprays are only as good as a good application to the face/eyes/nasal/ear canal areas and none of them work on everybody all of the time. (I know guys who are almost 100% immune to the effects, and myself have taken down offenders after being accidentally sprayed while in uses of force... adrenaline can be much more powerful than the spray if one knows what's happening/coming...)

[KeeFus]

A quick Google and it appears that it shouldn't an issue to order the stuff online. What are people's thoughts about the foam? Better just going with the stream or cone? For a woman protecting themselves I would think the "cone" type of spray would probably be the most effective as their aim wouldn't be as critical. However, that also brings about problems of dispersion as well. Please correct me or help educate me if I'm off base here.

I'm w/ CK1 on the foam. Avoid it.

[jlw]

I've sprayed a lot of people over the past 16 years. The very first suspect I sprayed was with CapStun (http://www.zarc.com/pepperspray/ProductDesc.aspx?code=Z-305&type=4&eq=&desc=CapStun-Pepper-Spray-Z-305-Standard-Duty)...he was very intoxicated and looked at me and stated "Spray me again you M-Fer". I quickly went to hard handed techniques. The problem with CapStun is it fogs...EVERYBODY! This was before we carried ASP batons or Tazers...I still have no use for a Tazer even though it's offered at my agency.

Now we use First Defense (http://www.defense-technology.com/products.aspx?pid=56825), which is what most agencies around here carry. Very effective. The last guy I sprayed with it fell immediately to the ground.

Some of this stuff may be LEO only so I'd find the commercial equilevant with between 5,000,000 - 5,300,000 Scovill Heat Units (SHU).


I'm in the opposite camp. At my previous agency, we were issued OC but not Tazers. The only time I ever saw the OC work effectively was on a drunk who took shelter in a shower stall and wouldn't come out. The officers on scene ended up spraying into the stall and telling him to come out when he was ready to give up.

I fond OC to be so ineffective in an apprehensive sense that I quit carrying it.

My current agency issues Tazer. We have had amazing success with them and don't even issue OC anymore.

[KeeFus]

I refuse to carry the Tazer...simply because I refuse to have 50,000 volts run through my body. :)

Seriously...they all are good tools but we Tazed a guy a couple months ago and it didn't work...he was hit twice. That being said, the pepper spray and ASP baton didnt work either.

Sometimes you just have to go hands on...which is another training issue, especially with the rookie's we are now getting. They are too reliant on the tools and not versed enough on hands on. Just like the guy mentioned above...the "Oh shit, now what do we do?" thoughts were going through their minds. We used to fight the 'Red Man' suit but after a few minor (cough-cough) injuries they shut that down.

[jlw]

I refuse to carry the Tazer...simply because I refuse to have 50,000 volts run through my body. :)

Seriously...they all are good tools but we Tazed a guy a couple months ago and it didn't work...he was hit twice. That being said, the pepper spray and ASP baton didnt work either.

Sometimes you just have to go hands on...which is another training issue, especially with the rookie's we are now getting. They are too reliant on the tools and not versed enough on hands on. Just like the guy mentioned above...the "Oh shit, now what do we do?" thoughts were going through their minds. We used to fight the 'Red Man' suit but after a few minor (cough-cough) injuries they shut that down.

I've been exposed directly and indirectly to OC numerous times, and I have taken a five second ride on the lightning. I don't want to do either again, but I'd rather ride the lightning. When the five seconds are done; it's done. OC is a gift that keeps giving for a while and then comes back around later.

I do agree with the reliance on tools and reluctance to go hands on observation.

[msstate56]

One thing to note about pepper spray is that if you use it once the attack has begun you might as well spray yourself in the face with it too.

If you are going to use it, do so before the physical attack begins and escape.

Have you ever sprayed someone and then gone physical? I have more than once. Sure, you're going to get some on you too, and it's not fun. However, it is nothing compared to a full face exposure.

Sabre Red is good stuff, there are a couple of people that can vouch for my old can's effectiveness.

[jlw]

Have you ever sprayed someone and then gone physical? I have more than once. Sure, you're going to get some on you too, and it's not fun. However, it is nothing compared to a full face exposure.

Sabre Red is good stuff, there are a couple of people that can vouch for my old can's effectiveness.

I have been involved in fights in which someone deployed the spray during a fight, and I have joined in several fights in which it was sprayed prior to my arrival. The good guys got it just as bad as the bad guys in each of those incidents.

I never saw it be effective for anything other than area denial; so, I quit carrying it expect as munitions in crowd control applications.

[VolGrad]

The family and I just blew through the inert practice canisters of Sabre RED and fired the two shots from the wife's old Kimber product.

My thoughts based solely on ease of use, spray patter, etc.;

The Kimber seems it would be better for toting in a purse. Specifically, it doesn't look like there is much concern of a ND. The Sabre looks as if it would be really easy to accidentally spray yourself, your purse/pocket, etc. The part that pushes over to allow the product to be fired simply moves too easily. It needs some sort of lock or a more distinct "snap".

The Saber seems to be better since it allows more than two shots/blasts. While spraying the Sabre it is pretty easy to stop spraying or to adjust the point of aim/impact.

[Al T.]

One thing I really like about the Kimber. The closer the bad guy is the worse that 90 MPH cloud of pepper juice is going to hurt. :D