PDA

View Full Version : Continuously humbled by LEM trigger.



YVK
11-03-2011, 11:26 PM
Today is four weeks that I've been working with LEM. 800 rounds, 700 of which are either slow or moderate fire. Almost daily dry-fire of all kinds, wall drill, one handed, slow pressouts, fast pressouts, timer, reloads. I get stellar (for me) results at slow, bullseye rate of fire.

Today I went to try at speed for the first time - I did a pin shoot. 15 feet, 5 pins, 8 rounds, you know the drill. On a first run, I left 4 pins standing. This is more than I ever left standing in any of my previous whole matches. I proceeded to finish last out of 31 shooters. I don't shoot those matches fast, but I rarely miss. My last match I shot with G19 and didn't miss a single pin. Today I left third of my pins standing. Coming off my AFHF class when I got on the Wall, this serves to show the extent of my performance degradation with LEM.

90% of that is anticipation and pushing the muzzle low. I am calling my misses, and I see them on paper. I see it on moderately paced B&D, although it is hard to tell on B&D, pre-ignition or post; based on results I see on paper, it is pre. I tried SLG's idea of going really fast and at times it seemed to help, but today's match ended that notion.

I don't know if I have a believable plan how to fix it. Keep B&D, keep slow? Shoot slow, shoot slow, go faster, come back to slow if I start missing, is that it? I seem to be hitting OK slow, but any speed and I dip the muzzle.

I don't believe any more that rolling trigger helps with anticipation. Regardless if it is true or not, I didn't need to deal with first shot during today's pin match, so the trigger travel wasn't a problem. I am actually very perplexed why I missed all those shots, it shouldn't have been that different than shooting a Glock. I was allowed to take the slack on first shot, so all shots were really a follow-up shots.

Those of you who went Glock/MP to LEM/TDA, how long did it take to start believing? I know it is highly individual, but just to keep as a reference...

I am scheduled to shoot my first ever USPSA match on Saturday. My desire to stick with training plan and shoot P30 is being evenly matched by lack of any confidence in my ability with it at the moment.

GJM
11-03-2011, 11:40 PM
I love my HK LEM pistols, but my scores on each day's test at Rogers are 15-20 points higher with a M&P Pro this time than last time thru with a P30 LEM.

YVK
11-04-2011, 12:19 AM
Yep, George, we did chat about this during the class. While I am bummed that I am doing worse than I expected, that by itself is not a problem. Problem is that I don't know how to read all this.

Even if I never exceeded my Glock performance with P30, I'd prefer P30.
Even if I never matched my Glock performance with P30 but staying with HK would make me a better shooter overall, I'd be willing to continue for some time.

As with anything in life, the tough part is to realize whether I am getting any return on investment. My P30 experience so far is like my 401(K); I've put money in both, both going downhill.

The second tough part is to understand what I am doing wrong and how to fix it right. It feels that I am doing how it is supposed to be done - take time, go slow, slow fire, slow fire, but how much effin slow fire do I need to do? SecondsCount had his for the same time I had mine and we probably have same round counts. He, just like I am, is a 1911 and striker-pistol kind of guy mostly. He run his P30 during the same match and rocked it, smooth and fast, probably shot the best time if you exclude dudes with trick guns. Obviously, regular dudes can shoot this platform well, but it doesn't help me to understand if I need to give it more time and patience, or it is just not going to happen.

GJM
11-04-2011, 04:41 AM
As a recovering HK addict, I can spot one under the spell from 1,600 miles away. After shooting 15,000 rounds thru a P30 last year, I was dismayed to be shooting a G17 and M&P better than my HK, within the first magazine. Every few months I relapse, but cure that by shooting my HK pistols on the timer.

A few rounds slow to verify zero, and get a feel for the trigger makes sense, but as Bill Rogers says, unless your goal is to shoot slow, continued slow practice is a waste of ammo, since most any pistol and stance can look good at half speed.

As Todd said, the timer alone is not the only criteria, and for the hammer, accuracy, reliability, and build quality you may still choose to carry an HK. I do, but I know that I shoot my M&P and Glock pistols better.

TCinVA
11-04-2011, 06:14 AM
To really do well with the P30 you have to work the trigger differently...it has to be a more consistent, rolling trigger pull than with a Glock. Generally when I miss with the P30 it's the result of pressing the trigger all at once (which triggers anticipation for me) versus taking just an extra hundredth or so of a second to think about rolling through the trigger pull. A "rolling" trigger pull simply means constant consistent movement throughout the pull. The longer the trigger pull, the more critical it is to do that bit correctly.

It takes work. I'll be at the range this afternoon, for instance, and the primary focus of the rounds I fire today will be working on properly rolling through the trigger, especially on quick multiple shot strings.

ToddG
11-04-2011, 08:19 AM
The LEM needs to be worked like a DA revolver, which can be very tricky for someone who is used to Glocks, tuned 1911s, FSS'd M&Ps, etc.

It's critically important that your finger never stop moving from the beginning of the press until the gun goes off. The movement should be consistent without "steps" or stops. The fact that you began "with the slack out" suggests to me that you're still trying to use it like a SAO gun with long pre-travel, and that's doomed to failure.

FWIW, as a guy who is much better attuned to the LEM than a Glock or SAO trigger, it's taken me more than six months and multiple trigger mechanism tweaks to get my G17 shooting the way I like. Different strokes for different folks.

HeadHunter
11-04-2011, 09:25 AM
The LEM needs to be worked like a DA revolver,

Maybe I should try one.

YVK
11-04-2011, 09:40 AM
It's critically important that your finger never stop moving from the beginning of the press until the gun goes off. The movement should be consistent without "steps" or stops. The fact that you began "with the slack out" suggests to me that you're still trying to use it like a SAO gun with long pre-travel, and that's doomed to failure.


There are times when I know I stage it. I actually try to stop the shot and start again. Then there are times it looks like I do but in fact I never stop applying pressure - that's how I try to shoot on slow accuracy drills. However, I do try to keep on with continuous motion through - in fact RO at the match said that I was rolling through. And missing. Something makes me fully aware that the trigger is nearly at the end of a travel and that's when the shot is about to come off. I keep wishing not for a shorter trigger pull but for an earlier break point, although I don't know if it would make a difference.

I truly don't understand why so much difference in follow up shots between P30 and Glock - with follow ups, trigger travel, reset (on my P30) and trigger pull are nearly identical.

Never thought I'd have a pleasure of saying this, but here it comes, on behalf of 1911 fan base - it is a payback time: Glock trigger is a crutch.

JohnN
11-04-2011, 12:43 PM
It's critically important that your finger never stop moving from the beginning of the press until the gun goes off. The movement should be consistent without "steps" or stops. The fact that you began "with the slack out" suggests to me that you're still trying to use it like a SAO gun with long pre-travel, and that's doomed to failure.

One thousand rounds into the transition from M&P to P30 I was saying to myself, I don't need this headache and go back to the M&P. After exchanging emails back and forth with Todd he gave me the above advise and told me to stick with it. Now I am moderately happy with my performance but I have the opposite problem from you. Shooting slow fire groups is more challenging to me than shooting fast paced drills. My SHO shooting has improved quite a bit, again following Todd's advise of walk back drills on a 3x5 target but WHO not so much. Really want the Grayguns trigger job but investing in a couple of thousand additional rounds might improve my WHO shooting more.

ToddG
11-04-2011, 04:17 PM
Maybe I should try one.

It's like a DAO trigger that lets you cheat. I think it's awesome.

Having said that, it's not a religion and if there are folks who simply can't make it work for them... don't kill yourself trying. Or put it down and come back to it in six months. Or spend some time working with a DA revolver.

GJM
11-04-2011, 08:40 PM
Todd, I would be very interested in your results with an M&P now, compared to the Glock and HK. I so loved my HK, but despite being a proficient revolver shooter, and having years of HK experience, found I consistently underperformed with the LEM -- especially over high round count and demanding courses. I just hated life back in April at Rogers with my P30, and tonight after the conclusion of Rogers with the M&P this week, have a new red emblem on my hat.

JRL
11-04-2011, 09:17 PM
It's like a DAO trigger that lets you cheat. I think it's awesome.


How do you cheat?

Le Français
11-04-2011, 09:34 PM
How do you cheat?

I think what was meant was that the LEM mechanism provides a shorter reset point than a DAO system, while retaining the long pull.

JodyH
11-04-2011, 09:44 PM
I really clicked with my LEM at around 10k rounds through it.
I was a Glock NY/3.5 fan previously.
Like Todd said, its all in the continuous trigger motion.
Also, the LEM really smoothes out after a few thousand rounds and the break point isn't as noticeable. This helps with the "dipping" muzzle.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

ToddG
11-04-2011, 11:38 PM
Todd, I would be very interested in your results with an M&P now, compared to the Glock and HK. I so loved my HK, but despite being a proficient revolver shooter, and having years of HK experience, found I consistently underperformed with the LEM -- especially over high round count and demanding courses. I just hated life back in April at Rogers with my P30, and tonight after the conclusion of Rogers with the M&P this week, have a new red emblem on my hat.

I never shot an LEM at Rogers so I couldn't say. However, of the three times I went, my worst performance was with my M&P9 (3rd trip). My best was with a SIG P220ST, pre-SRT (2nd trip). I actually did better my first time there, shooting a Beretta 92G, than I did five years later with the M&P9.

Here are my notes from Day 1 with the M&P9:



Goals: Beat previous best of 121

Needs Improvement: EVERYTHING! Jerking trigger like mad, not staying on the sights, not staying on target until it goes down. Absolutely horrible WHO (dropped 10 of 33 shots).

Accomplisments: Resisted urge to shoot myself for making Intermediate score.

Notes: Scored 105, Intermediate
1: 8
2: 15
3: 14 *
4: 9 *
5: 11
6: 8
7: 15
8: 16

My best score of the week was a 117 Friday morning. My notes from almost every day reference trouble with getting a smooth trigger press. Nonetheless, I took home the red pin by more than 100pts. That's the thing about being top in class... a lot of it depends on the class. In '03 with the P220ST I made advanced all six tests (best score was 121) but still lost to a guy who shot better by one or two points over the course of the week. Back in '02 with the Beretta, my top score of the week was a 119 and I came in second to a guy who beat my weekly aggregate by 43 points and set a then-record of 700/750 for the week. His name is Super Dave Harrington. :cool:


How do you cheat?

The LEM has a shorter reset and a substantially lighter trigger pull than most DA revolvers.

YVK
11-04-2011, 11:51 PM
Having said that, it's not a religion and if there are folks who simply can't make it work for them..

Do you feel that, regardless of end-result, a fair attempt on learning it adds to one's general skills? Or it makes no difference given significant differences between the trigger systems?
This is of academic interest, I'll keep on working with it regardless until it is either a clear no-go for me (I sure hope the Gadget is out by then) or I see results.



Or spend some time working with a DA revolver.

Is it a figure of speech or you think it's going to be helpful? LEM in decocked state allows for easy dry fire in a true DAO mode; one can even do single live shots in such mode. Helpful, not?

Anyway, I went to the range for a remedial session today, concentrating on one thing only - rolling through the pull. I wasn't trying to aim much, just looked for the front sight lift. Did this on high-prob target, then small target, then added a demand part - timer signal, then two more 3x5 cards to add transitions. Didn't do follow-up shots. There were still some low shots and, surprisingly, low-left shots, but overall it actually looked reasonable. Maybe there is a hope.

I then pushed the target to 25 yards, and tried to roll at about same pace I shot 3x5s at 7 yards, and ended up with a 7 inch group. Maybe I am hopeless.


Anyway, thanks to all for advice. The advantages of P30 are so substantial to me that I am willing to stick with it. Seems like 5,000-7,000 rounds of thought-out practice should be enough to get an idea. I probably will make my entry into USPSA with a Glock tomorrow, though.

GJM. well done at Rogers!

ToddG
11-05-2011, 12:03 AM
Do you feel that, regardless of end-result, a fair attempt on learning it adds to one's general skills?

If you want to be a good jack of all trades, certainly. It will also teach you things about a press-out that might not be as obvious with a lighter trigger or one with a more dramatic break point.

But if it doesn't work for you, you'd probably be better off spending that 5,000 rounds on the system that does work for you.


Is it a figure of speech or you think it's going to be helpful? LEM in decocked state allows for easy dry fire in a true DAO mode; one can even do single live shots in such mode. Helpful, not?

I think spending time with a true DA revolver is helpful for just about anyone.


I then pushed the target to 25 yards, and tried to roll at about same pace I shot 3x5s at 7 yards, and ended up with a 7 inch group. Maybe I am hopeless.

If you're thinking about pace while group shooting at 25yd, you're doing it wrong.


I probably will make my entry into USPSA with a Glock tomorrow, though.

I'm a firm believer that the best way to ruin an attempt to transition to a new system is to switch back to a more familiar/comfortable system during the process.

YVK
11-05-2011, 12:20 AM
But if it doesn't work for you, you'd probably be better off spending that 5,000 rounds on the system that does work for you.


Well, a very practical question is how does one make a call between "I've not spent enough time and effort on this" vs "It is not working for me". In my case, it seems that the former is the case given a rather short time and possibly erroneous way I've been doing it. However, I really hope I can see at least a trend over next 1-2 thousand.



I'm a firm believer that the best way to ruin an attempt to transition to a new system is to switch back to a more familiar/comfortable system during the process.

You're right, and I am a bit torn here, and this is why I mentioned that, as an implicit request of comments. Being true to a principle, I should run P30. However, as I said, it is going to be a first match for me. I don't know what's more important - staying with a program, or removing an additional stressor as I am sure there is going to be a ton of new stressors for me.

JohnN
11-05-2011, 12:37 AM
I'm a firm believer that the best way to ruin an attempt to transition to a new system is to switch back to a more familiar/comfortable system during the process.

Mixing platforms, specifically striker fired and LEM causes me problems. From my own experience, using one system makes my life easier.


You're right, and I am a bit torn here, and this is why I mentioned that, as an implicit request of comments. Being true to a principle, I should run P30. However, as I said, it is going to be a first match for me. I don't know what's more important - staying with a program, or removing an additional stressor as I am sure there is going to be a ton of new stressors for me.

Unless they are threatening your first born:) I would stick with the P30, you might be surprised. Depending on your competition and being your first match you probably aren't going to do that well anyway so have fun.

GJM
11-05-2011, 08:44 AM
Well, a very practical question is how does one make a call between "I've not spent enough time and effort on this" vs "It is not working for me". In my case, it seems that the former is the case given a rather short time and possibly erroneous way I've been doing it. However, I really hope I can see at least a trend over next 1-2 thousand.

My experience was sort of reciprocal -- last spring after thousands of rounds getting ready for Rogers, 2,500 rounds at Rogers, within one magazine I could see that I shot a Glock 17 and M&P 9 faster/better than my P30. I think someone in law enforcement might call that a clue.

Again, if you want to carry an HK, do it. I do it sometimes, but I know that I shoot an M&P and Glock better. I am not sure what an HK does better than a Glock with a gadget or M&P with a thumb safety.

I would love to have someone tell me that across a comprehensive test, like the 125 round Rogers School test, that they shoot an LEM better than an M&P or Glock. Maybe there would be an exception, but I would bet 9 out of 10 shoot the M&P or Glock better.

ToddG
11-05-2011, 09:12 AM
GJM -- I think you'd find quite a few folks here who'd disagree. For every person I know who shoots a SFA better, I know one who shoots the LEM better. As such, I think it's hard to generalize that one is inherently better.

Furthermore, as with all things, you need to examine the test. Rogers involves a lot of single shot transitions between difficult (distant) targets under time pressure. There are very few requirements for multiple shots on a single target, and when there are it's a huge target. The first shot from the holster is almost always to an equally huge close-range target, and when a ready position start is used it mandates a ready position that makes a proper press-out almost impossible. There is never an instance in which targets need to be ID'd and the entire downrange area is a free fire zone; I've witnessed a substantial number of ADs going downrange between targets at Rogers but there is no penalty except a wasted shot.

Lest anyone think I'm picking on RSS, the same could be said for the F.A.S.T. It puts emphasis on certain things (draw to a low probability target, reload) and ignores others (movement, target id) in a way that certainly fails to represent "average" reality. Obviously I don't think that makes it a bad test just as I don't think the RSS Test is bad. But you need to understand what you're using as a basis when you start relying on its data. Just because a particular gun turns in "the best FAST" or "the best score at Rogers" or "the best score on the Humbler" doesn't make it the best gun.

As others have said, the biggest issue many of us see with the LEM is that folks -- even folks who give it an honest try over months and thousands of rounds -- don't actually learn how to shoot it. It's different. Whether it has an advantage that makes it worth the effort to learn that different is a matter of personal choice. I happen to think the LEM is brilliant but I honestly couldn't care less whether anyone else uses it. What I care about is people making intelligent decisions based on rational factors. There's absolutely no doubt that will result in some people preferring one system, and others preferring another.

GJM
11-05-2011, 10:02 AM
GJM -- I think you'd find quite a few folks here who'd disagree. For every person I know who shoots a SFA better, I know one who shoots the LEM better. As such, I think it's hard to generalize that one is inherently better.

Furthermore, as with all things, you need to examine the test. Rogers involves a lot of single shot transitions between difficult (distant) targets under time pressure. There are very few requirements for multiple shots on a single target, and when there are it's a huge target. The first shot from the holster is almost always to an equally huge close-range target, and when a ready position start is used it mandates a ready position that makes a proper press-out almost impossible. There is never an instance in which targets need to be ID'd and the entire downrange area is a free fire zone; I've witnessed a substantial number of ADs going downrange between targets at Rogers but there is no penalty except a wasted shot.

Todd, so I am sure what you are saying, is your statement that fifty per cent of people shoot an LEM better, and fifty per cent shoot a SFA better? You aside, I just haven't met anyone that says they shoots an LEM better.

As to the Rogers school test, being 125 rounds, I can't imagine a more comprehensive test. As to large body shots, as you know, there are only 11 body shots out of 125, and good shooters are not spraying on those 11, but keeping them close to the spot.

As to multiple shots on the same target, in my experience, my splits are measurably faster with an M&P than an LEM trigger.

I am open to being educated on the LEM, despite my own experience with it. Out of curiosity, how many FAST coins have gone to shooters with an LEM trigger, do you know anyone that has shot Advanced at Rogers with an LEM trigger, and are any shooters winning matches of any sort with an LEM trigger? As a person that loves HK pistols, and owns more of them than I would admit publicly, I am not trying to run them down -- just be realistic about how they work for me.

joshs
11-05-2011, 10:19 AM
Todd, so I am sure what you are saying, is your statement that fifty per cent of people shoot an LEM better, and fifty per cent shoot a SFA better? You aside, I just haven't met anyone that says they shoots an LEM better.

As to the Rogers school test, being 125 rounds, I can't imagine a more comprehensive test. As to large body shots, as you know, there are only 11 body shots out of 125, and good shooters are not spraying on those 11, but keeping them close to the spot.

As to multiple shots on the same target, in my experience, my splits are measurably faster with an M&P than an LEM trigger.

I am open to being educated on the LEM, despite my own experience with it. Out of curiosity, how many FAST coins have gone to shooters with an LEM trigger, do you know anyone that has shot Advanced at Rogers with an LEM trigger, and are any shooters winning matches of any sort with an LEM trigger? As a person that loves HK pistols, and owns more of them than I would admit publicly, I am not trying to run them down -- just be realistic about how they work for me.

I prefer (and shoot better with) the LEM than SFA or SAO guns of similar trigger weight. For me to really start to see the advantages of a shorter "glass rod" type trigger, the trigger weight needs to be sub 4 pounds, otherwise I'm more likely to anticipate those triggers than the LEM. Since I'm not comfortable carrying guns with a trigger that light, this leaves me with the LEM or a TDA.

To the best of my knowledge, no one has won a major IPSC match with the LEM. However, this has more to do with none of the top production shooters shooting an LEM than it has with any inherent qualities of the LEM trigger. I think K.C. is still using an LEM and he has won a number of smaller and possibly regional matches this year in production.

ETA: I didn't read your question about winning matches carefully. I thought you were talking about major matches. I've won some matches shooting the LEM, so I guess that counts too.

ToddG
11-05-2011, 10:25 AM
Todd, so I am sure what you are saying, is your statement that fifty per cent of people shoot an LEM better, and fifty per cent shoot a SFA better?

I haven't quantified it that specifically. What I can say is that I've seen a number of students -- including a number of people on this forum -- who've switched to the LEM and found they shoot it better.


As to the Rogers school test, being 125 rounds, I can't imagine a more comprehensive test.

Again not trying to put down RSS in any way, but 110 or so one-shot engagements and a few doubles on a huge close range target all taken from a static position isn't my idea of comprehensive. Now I'll certainly grant you that within the realm of engaging multiple targets with one hit each under time pressure, the RSS test is very comprehensive in terms of having lots of draws, reloads, SHO and WHO shooting, etc.


As to large body shots, as you know, there are only 11 body shots out of 125, and good shooters are not spraying on those 11, but keeping them close to the spot.

I would submit that the shooters who are getting the best scores are the ones who treat the body shots like any other: taking the least time necessary to get acceptable hits so they have as much time as possible for the rest of that string of fire.


As to multiple shots on the same target, in my experience, my splits are measurably faster with an M&P than an LEM trigger.

That's an M&P with DCAEK, FSS, and/or RAM, yes?

It's also important to define what we mean by a split in this context. My blind splits (how fast can I make the gun go bang) are faster with a Glock than an LEM, too. My practical splits (how fast the gun goes bang when I'm trying to get hits under stress, such as during the FAST) are identical or, at worst, a hundredth or two apart.


Out of curiosity, how many FAST coins have gone to shooters with an LEM trigger,

Out of eight people, the first two did it with DA/SA guns and all the rest have been with SFA guns. Having said that, at least three of the eight (myself, SLG, and Ernest Langdon) are now big fans of the LEM system. More to your point, the only one who's tried the LEM and gone back to an SFA was JV.


do you know anyone that has shot Advanced at Rogers with an LEM trigger,

You'd have to ask Rogers that question. They don't send me reports. :cool:

Furthermore, I'm not sure what it would prove. I'm a perfect example of someone who shot Advanced at Rogers with two different systems (DA/SA and SFA), has never been there with an LEM, but likes the LEM.


and are any shooters winning matches of any sort with an LEM trigger?

Yes. Somewhere, there is someone with an LEM winning some kind of match.


As a person that loves HK pistols, and owns more of them than I would admit publicly, I am not trying to run them down -- just be realistic about how they work for me.

If you're concerned about how they work for you, stop worrying about who's done what with them.

GJM
11-05-2011, 05:34 PM
I just got an email back from Bill, and while he has shot advanced on his test with a P7M8, P7M13 and MK 23, to his knowledge nobody has shot advanced with an LEM trigger at the Rogers School (yet). No info from him as to how many people have been thru there with a LEM. This may be an opportunity for you to dust off your P30 and capture another red pin!

YVK
11-05-2011, 05:57 PM
I just got an email back from Bill, and while he has shot advanced on his test with a P7M8, P7M13 and MK 23, to his knowledge nobody has shot advanced with an LEM trigger at the Rogers School (yet). No info from him as to how many people have been thru there with a LEM. This may be an opportunity for you to dust off your P30 and capture another red pin!

Nope George, I'll be the first one to shoot advanced at RSS with LEM and capture whatever pins and needles they issue there :D

So, while I am freezing my hands and other parts shooting my first match with...P30, you guys are engaged in one of my favorite discussions. That is, blondes vs brunettes. I got to tell you, I've always wanted to evolve into "blondes AND brunettes". And redheads, can't live without redheads.

S.I.R.T needs to make a LEM pistol model; it might get expensive to shoot live ammo just to get trigger roll down.

Anyway, thanks for advice, on and off-line. We'll see what we'll see.

ubervic
11-05-2011, 06:33 PM
Novice chiming-in...

What appeals to me about the LEM trigger is the fact that every single trigger pull will be identical. No hard, long pull vs short, soft pull; no decocking; no extra focus on whether I'm in DA or SA mode. With this simplicity, all I must do is draw, acquire, align sights, press and ROOLLLLLLLLLLLLLL the trigger smoothly, consistently, and straight back until the weapon goes BOOM.

I will add that the standard (v2) LEM trigger has a noticeably "stacked" feel as one pulls through its travel, which can cause many shooter to feel that they should stage the trigger between the take-up travel and the final, BOOM-making travel. I fired my first LEM pistol---HK P2000sk---in this condition for many months before moving to the v4 configuration, and I found that the v4's considerable reduction in 'stacking' feel during the press reduced my desire/tendency to stage the trigger. This set-up enhances precision shooting as well as rapid-fire accuracy quite a bit.

I have since sold-off my P2000sk and moved on to the P30 LEM. Naturally :), I couldn't resist the Todd Green Special configuration---v3 Firing Pin Block Spring and mainspring. Though the trigger pull is somewhat long, I find the resulting trigger-press smooth, easy to modulate, and very simply & comfortably repeatable, whether firing from holster, high-ready, reload......no matter.

JHC
11-05-2011, 07:40 PM
I have really enjoyed following this thread. I must be attuned to finding an opportunity to try out an LEM, ideally light LEM I guess. I grew up shooting DA wheelies and even after more than a dozen years of near complete dedication to SFA guns, I can still roll the revolvers with great accuracy at distances that suprise me. But even up close nowhere near the speed of a G17. So I roll with speed. If a revolver carried 15 shots on board . . .

Thanks again.

ToddG
11-05-2011, 08:23 PM
I just got an email back from Bill, and while he has shot advanced on his test with a P7M8, P7M13 and MK 23, to his knowledge nobody has shot advanced with an LEM trigger at the Rogers School (yet).

I may need to bring a P30 with me if we do the pistol-forum.com Rogers class next year...

YVK
11-05-2011, 08:25 PM
I may need to bring a P30 with me if we do the pistol-forum.com Rogers class next year...

You'll shoot after me then, since, as I said, I'll be the first one to get an advanced with LEM at RSS:p

JodyH
11-05-2011, 09:17 PM
I'll have a LEM at the PF.com Rogers class... and if I time my OCD just right I'll get an advanced Rogers rating and a FAST coin back to back.
:p

JohnN
11-05-2011, 09:59 PM
GJM,

Did you ever have any of your LEM guns modified by Gray to reduce reset? Following other threads on this forum and others I know you are a very competent shot and have spent quite a bit of time using the LEM system, at your level a 40-50% reset reduction might help make the platform perform more to your liking.

I have come to the conclusion, at my level, more time and ammo on the system will pay more dividends than a reset reduction.

GJM
11-06-2011, 10:32 PM
I haven't.

I felt, and I think shot, YVK's modified P30 at AFHF in UT, and didn't feel like it would make that much difference for me -- especially using the Rogers flip and press method. My average score was 35 points higher each day at Rogers with the M&P Pro with FSS, compared to the P30, so I take that as definitive for me. I shot a Gen 4 G17 today, with the now stock dot connector, and felt that was easier for me to shoot support hand only. I think the Glock having more roll in the trigger is an advantage one hand.

ToddG
11-06-2011, 10:37 PM
I think the Glock having more roll in the trigger is an advantage one hand.

This is wisdom.

YVK
11-07-2011, 04:45 PM
About 500 live rounds and a bunch of dry-fire since I started this thread and I can roll through a trigger pull without staging. Two-handed, all shots are on 3x5 at 25 feet at a moderate pace, and about 80+% with one handed at slow-moderate pace.

Problem is this is only from aimed ready. I am still pretty bad with accuracy from a press out. I can't quite understand this part 'cause I don't think I am staging, but I still push shots low - not as much, but low. More pressouts, I guess. I hope I am not ingraining some unrecognized error. I really want to take a next AFHF or LTT class for some supervised TDA/LEM instruction.

Another issue is that now I can't get how to shoot this pistol at slow pace. If continuous trigger motion is a requirement, then I need some speed to go through the break non-stop. If I go slow - like I did on Sweet Sixteen - I end up briefly stopping trigger movement at a break point. Is it OK as long as I continue to build constant pressure?

joshs
11-07-2011, 04:51 PM
Another issue is that now I can't get how to shoot this pistol at slow pace. If continuous trigger motion is a requirement, then I need some speed to go through the break non-stop. If I go slow - like I did on Sweet Sixteen - I end up briefly stopping trigger movement at a break point. Is it OK as long as I continue to build constant pressure?

I continue to build pressure, but only very slowly. If I completely stop the trigger movement, then I let off a bit and restart the press.

JohnN
11-27-2011, 04:07 PM
Finally making some progress shooting SHO and WHO or maybe I was just having a better day than usual. Todd suggested shooting walk back drills using 3”x5” card as a target, frankly I was struggling at the five yard mark keeping 50-60% inside the card at any reasonable speed. Today however I was able to keep 98% inside the card as quickly as the front sight would settle. WHO is still lagging behind at closer to 50% but I am seeing definite improvement over the last several weeks. Have to admit I was getting more than a little annoyed at the lack of progress but maybe things are turning around.

I am getting to the point where my little mind:confused: may be able to justify sending this gun away to Gray for a trigger job.

Skold
11-27-2011, 06:10 PM
I haven't.

I felt, and I think shot, YVK's modified P30 at AFHF in UT, and didn't feel like it would make that much difference for me -- especially using the Rogers flip and press method. My average score was 35 points higher each day at Rogers with the M&P Pro with FSS, compared to the P30, so I take that as definitive for me. I shot a Gen 4 G17 today, with the now stock dot connector, and felt that was easier for me to shoot support hand only. I think the Glock having more roll in the trigger is an advantage one hand.

This may be a dumb question, but what is the Rogers flip and press method???

GJM
11-27-2011, 08:56 PM
Follow through with your sights and trigger after your shot, and rather than try to ride the reset out, quickly flip your finger forward off the trigger to or towards the trigger guard, and press again.

JodyH
11-27-2011, 09:29 PM
Follow through with your sights and trigger after your shot, and rather than try to ride the reset out, quickly flip your finger forward off the trigger to or towards the trigger guard, and press again.
In my experience it leads to trigger slapping rather than trigger pressing and is a sub-optimal way to shoot the LEM.
I prefer the middle ground between riding the reset and flipping.
I quickly let the trigger out past reset but try to never lose finger contact with the trigger.

GJM
11-27-2011, 09:42 PM
I should clarify that my flip and press comments above were describing how Rogers teaches flip and press and not what is necessarily ideal for the LEM trigger.

Skold
11-27-2011, 10:17 PM
Ok, thanks GJM and JodyH for clarifying!!

JohnN
11-27-2011, 11:35 PM
I should clarify that my flip and press comments above were describing how Rogers teaches flip and press and not what is necessarily ideal for the LEM trigger.


I know Rogers trains lots of guys who use conventional DA/SA pistols does he recommend the flip and press for them also? There is no way I could use that method to control an LEM trigger.

LOKNLOD
11-28-2011, 12:02 AM
I know Rogers trains lots of guys who use conventional DA/SA pistols does he recommend the flip and press for them also? There is no way I could use that method to control an LEM trigger.

Sounds to me like it would be in place during multiple shot strings, which presumably would be during the SA portion of DA/SA, so perhaps it's not that different than a SA or SFA after all.

I'm late to the thread, but this is a very interesting and timely discussion to me. I think I might not be managing the LEM trigger correctly myself (But it has made shooting a Glock seem a lot easier by comparison.)
ETA: I had to go do some dry fire while thinking about it to confirm, but it seems my natural instinct is to take out all the "slack" and then break the last bit. It was more obvious on the wall drill from extension, but it has a more negative impact on the press outs. I was to the breaking point too early and holding it, waiting for my sights so I could break the shot. Need to work on that.

Serpico1985
11-28-2011, 05:28 PM
Todd G, JodyH, TCinVA and other professors of the LEM.

When you say a continus trigger pull do you mean you that once your finger starts moving to the rear it dosn't stop unitl the shot is broke? Or putting continus increasing presure on the trigger in which case you could imagine the trigger briefly stopping while your increasing pressure once near the break point (similar to a 1911 trigger in which once on the sear there is no trigger movement until all the needed pressure has been applied and all at once the shot breaks).

Thanks

JHC
11-28-2011, 05:34 PM
I've never fired a LEM gun (I will remedy that one day) but I've got tons of DA revolver shooting time and the continuous "roll" to the break is how you shoot a K frame and yep by continuous, it means continuous; rolling till the shot breaks. It is extremely "intuitive" once you're doing it. You don't have the sense of the trigger staging to be ready to break as you do with a Glock and many other triggers. It just breaks deep into the roll. I say roll I guess thinking of spinning the revolvers cylinder perhaps but it will feel like rolling through the shot.

ToddG
11-28-2011, 05:40 PM
Serpico -- My finger is in continuous motion. When it reaches the final break point of the trigger, where the pull is hardest, the trigger may stop moving momentarily but my finger never stops.

Serpico1985
11-28-2011, 06:06 PM
Ok. And if your taking a low probability shot vs a high probability shot would you decrease the speed at which you pull the trigger?

Thanks

ToddG
11-28-2011, 06:08 PM
Ok. And if your taking a low probability shot vs a high probability shot would you decrease the speed at which you pull the trigger?

If it was enough of a low% target, yes.

Serpico1985
11-28-2011, 06:10 PM
Excellent info, thanks for the clarification! Thats going in my range book for my next range session.

kennjen
12-01-2011, 01:05 PM
I'm reading this thread with a lot of interest. I'm a new shooter with a 9mm usp-c LEM. I now have approximately 3000 rounds through this gun. (or any gun. Like I said, I JUST started shooting) Last 2k were in LEM. I'm having very similar problems as indicated in this thread. I know that LEM isn't the ONLY thing to blame (Or the main thing for that matter), but I get vertical stringing as well.

Any way...on to my point. I recently went to heavy LEM. Because, after taking a tactical shooting class in light-LEM, I felt that:

1) Light LEM almost forces you to stage the trigger.
2) Light LEM has a long & light stroke first and then a sudden sear engagement, this was causing me to "Slap" the trigger in rapid fire.

I've come to the conclusion, much like this thread, that (for me) I should do a continuous ROLL of the trigger to shoot LEM. I felt that heavy LEM may allow me to do this easier. I really think Light LEM is cousin to "single action with a long stroke", where as heavy LEM is cousin to "double action". I think the (more or less) constant tension in the heavy LEM allows for ROLL of the trigger, similar to the DA trigger.

I'm dry firing a lot, rolling through the trigger stroke in heavy LEM. I'm hopeful that it will improve my shooting. Please let me know if you guys have any wisdom to add. I'll be interested in hearing it.

P.S. In a slightly different, but related topic, I've decided that I won't be able to utilize the short reset of the LEM during a real dynamic situation. My thought currently is that I should utilize flip & press method (more or less). This is another reason for wanting to learn the smooth roll of the trigger. (If any one feels different about this, than you are a better shooter than me. ) Maybe this will change as I get better at shooting, but it's my current frame of thought.

JodyH
12-01-2011, 01:25 PM
I prefer the V2 LEM for many of the reasons you listed.
The only gun I switch springs around in is the P30, in which I swap the FPB spring for the lighter P2000 spring.
That's just to make it feel like my P2k triggers.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

HeadHunter
12-01-2011, 08:31 PM
This may be a dumb question, but what is the Rogers flip and press method???

A little more explanation here:

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2313-HeadHunter-s-Training-Journal&p=36989&viewfull=1#post36989

HeadHunter
12-02-2011, 04:10 PM
I know Rogers trains lots of guys who use conventional DA/SA pistols does he recommend the flip and press for them also? There is no way I could use that method to control an LEM trigger.

This is the flip and press in action using a Beretta 92 Compact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2Hz4SGDvGM
Given the variety of platforms Bill and I had to use, sometimes on a week to week basis, the flip and press is the only technique that works seamlessly from platform to platform. Resetting a 226 or M9 eventually, and inevitably, leads to trigger freeze.

I guess I will have to put my hands on an H&K with an LEM to try it out.

JRas
02-12-2012, 07:08 PM
So irritated with myself today

I have a love hate relationship with the LEM trigger. My P30 is a V2 and I can definitely feel the intial slack in the trigger than the actual trigger pull. I've been able to shoot it well but I have days like today that make me mad. I just recently had some Heine sights installed so I was excited to shoot them for the first time.

My shots are always low left, at speed I can make my hits well. I went to shoot slow and couldn't hit what I was aiming at

I dry fire and I feel my sight picture is good along with my trigger pull, I think I'm anticipating

I'm tempted to change out some springs in an effort to remove that obvious actual trigger pull...

Ideas?

JodyH
02-12-2012, 07:48 PM
So irritated with myself today

I have a love hate relationship with the LEM trigger. My P30 is a V2 and I can definitely feel the intial slack in the trigger than the actual trigger pull. I've been able to shoot it well but I have days like today that make me mad. I just recently had some Heine sights installed so I was excited to shoot them for the first time.

My shots are always low left, at speed I can make my hits well. I went to shoot slow and couldn't hit what I was aiming at

I dry fire and I feel my sight picture is good along with my trigger pull, I think I'm anticipating

I'm tempted to change out some springs in an effort to remove that obvious actual trigger pull...

Ideas?
The trigger isn't your primary problem and switching springs around won't fix anything. It might mask your flinch for a while, but it will come back.
You need to work on your mental game.
Dry fire does NOT fix a flinch, why would you flinch when you know the gun isn't going to make any noise or recoil?
You cannot trick your mind into thinking a dry fire gun might go BOOM, so of course you'll breeze through dry fire practice without flinching.
You need some low recoil practice (.22lr or .38spcl full wadcutters in a steel revolver are both great low recoil rounds).
Then follow that up with some ball and dummy drills in your carry caliber.
Initially load more dummies than live rounds, then when you are not flinching on the live rounds start increasing the ratio of live to dummy until you're full live with no flinch.
If the flinch comes back, start over.
For severe flinchers I've used a 4" stainless S&W K-frame Hogue gripped revolver with the softest shooting .38 wadcutters I could find at a 4:2 dummy to live ratio.
Then slowly worked them up to a full cylinder of wadcutters followed by standard .38's and eventually +P's and mild .357's.

YVK
02-12-2012, 11:29 PM
At the time when you expect for shot to break, make a very concerted effort to keep pushing sights at the target, whether it is fast or slow pace. Sometimes I feel like I am hyperextending, although it is a perception, not actual movement. I still feel that LEM makes it easy to anticipate the shot (I know that quite a few more experienced and talented shooters will disagree with this statement), and I found that very accentuated, meticulous follow-through was the solution for me. I am still far from being truly comfortable with LEM and I am not sure if I ever will, but I've come quite a bit forward using that technique since I started this thread.

GJM
02-13-2012, 12:12 PM
I find the LEM trigger to be orders of magnitude harder to shoot at max speed, support hand only. I think the HK DA/SA trigger, like a P30/S, to be much easier support hand only.

TGS
02-13-2012, 12:27 PM
I find the LEM trigger to be orders of magnitude harder to shoot at max speed, support hand only. I think the HK DA/SA trigger, like a P30/S, to be much easier support hand only.

Interesting. What made it tougher in your experience? And are you comparing this against an HK in DA or SA....or both?

Mr_White
02-13-2012, 12:30 PM
At the time when you expect for shot to break, make a very concerted effort to keep pushing sights at the target, whether it is fast or slow pace. Sometimes I feel like I am hyperextending, although it is a perception, not actual movement. I still feel that LEM makes it easy to anticipate the shot (I know that quite a few more experienced and talented shooters will disagree with this statement), and I found that very accentuated, meticulous follow-through was the solution for me. I am still far from being truly comfortable with LEM and I am not sure if I ever will, but I've come quite a bit forward using that technique since I started this thread.

I feel like I get some positive benefit against flinching from doing what you describe here.

GJM
02-13-2012, 12:37 PM
Interesting. What made it tougher in your experience? And are you comparing this against an HK in DA or SA....or both?

Certainly SA, and possibly even DA, although I haven't thought about DA much.

If you dry fire a LEM, and don't reset the slide, while heavy, it rolls through like a revolver. Regular LEM doesn't roll thru like a revolver, but is much harder for me than a Glock, M&P DCAEK, or even SA P30.

I have spent LOTS of time shooting support hand only in the last 10 months, and while I can shoot an LEM support hand fine precision, when I push the speed, I can't run it like the others.

YVK
02-14-2012, 12:57 AM
Interesting. What made it tougher in your experience? And are you comparing this against an HK in DA or SA....or both?

Folks tend to have a dichotomous approach to things, LEM is better/easier, TDA is better/easier, etc. I think that this is a wrong take. I find that some things are done best with one system, and other - another. I am over 4000 rounds since October through my LEM P30, and I now have an access to a rental TDA P30. Within first 25 rounds from TDA, I had no appreciable problems with so-called DA/SA transition. My time on a low-prob first shot was about .3 slower with TDA, but my follow-up shots were faster and easier to make with DA/SA - despite standard reset on rental vs Gray-reduced reset on my LEM! Now, change the task and ask for a low probability first shot one-handed, SHO or WHO, and situation changes in favor of LEM considerably, at least, for me.
I am utterly unconvinced by a common statement that LEM is a cop-out by those who can't master DA/SA and that LEM on a whole is easier to shoot. I think in some areas it is actually more difficult, including the specific area GJM mentioned above. I even have a little theory why it is hard to run fast WHO, but that's just a speculation.


Origami: this is something you and I had discussed in PMs, and full credit on alerting me about this trick goes to you; I should've mentioned it in a first place. What I am doing right now is taking my presentation apart (again). In past I conditioned myself to break it at the end of pistol's extension; continuous effort to push gun forward makes me worried about hyperextending the elbows which is not great for a recoil control. I am now trying to break a shot a fraction earlier than before so I don't stretch my arms forward too much during this exaggerated follow-through.

TGS
02-14-2012, 11:44 AM
Seems like everyone goes for light LEM or TLG Special.

Have you guys tried heavy LEM? Would the heavier trigger pull make the break less noticeable and more DA-ish? At the same time, you'd have a trigger that's still lighter than DA, with a much shorter reset than DAO. Sounds reasonable enough to try.

Mr_White
02-14-2012, 12:18 PM
Origami: this is something you and I had discussed in PMs, and full credit on alerting me about this trick goes to you; I should've mentioned it in a first place. What I am doing right now is taking my presentation apart (again).

No issue at all re: credit for the idea. That had not even occurred to me. In our prior discussion, I found it very interesting that there was someone else you mentioned who advocated doing that. I have also been experimenting with subtleties of the presentation. Right now there are no less than three slightly different ways I might do the presentation. I would do well to narrow it down. But I think the act of considering, reflecting, experimenting - essentially, being aware of our actions is hugely positive to the learning process, even if we sometimes run in circles.

Sorry for the drift.

YVK
02-14-2012, 12:26 PM
TGS, mine came in as V2 and I shot it a bit, then changed to Todd's setup, then to Grayguns but I told them to leave trigger return spring alone. I think one of SecondsCount's P30 is V1. I don't think you can reproduce a true DA feel with equal-ish resistance to a finger in a LEM gun. To the best of my memory, the take up was light with all of these spring variations, and all of them had a step-up from take up to the break. My opinion is that if one wants to run LEM as a rolling trigger, the answer is in training your finger to do it, not change springs.

Origami: true, but I don't think Pat talked about trying to extend the presentation past trigger break.

SecondsCount
02-14-2012, 08:19 PM
TGS, mine came in as V2 and I shot it a bit, then changed to Todd's setup, then to Grayguns but I told them to leave trigger return spring alone. I think one of SecondsCount's P30 is V1. I don't think you can reproduce a true DA feel with equal-ish resistance to a finger in a LEM gun. To the best of my memory, the take up was light with all of these spring variations, and all of them had a step-up from take up to the break. My opinion is that if one wants to run LEM as a rolling trigger, the answer is in training your finger to do it, not change springs.

Origami: true, but I don't think Pat talked about trying to extend the presentation past trigger break.

Yes, I have a V1 and V2. I started off with the V2 early last year and picked up the V1 this year as an experiment. My thought was that if I didn't like the V1 then I could convert it back to V2.

After shooting the V2 for a year I found the V1 to be almost too light but have only shot about 50 rounds through it. My 13 year old son has claimed the V1 as his now so I may never get to shoot it again. He was out beating the adults with it on the plate rack again this week. The only one able to beat him was an AFHF graduate. :)

With many years on the 1911 platform it is requiring lots of training to increase speed with the lighter gun and heavier trigger. Sometimes one needs a good challenge.

texag
02-20-2012, 11:56 PM
After dry firing a v2 p30 in the shop I bought it.

I need to get a legit shot timer to compare, but without a meaningful way of tracking performance with this vs my glock it feels almost too easy.

YVK
02-21-2012, 12:40 AM
Let us know how it goes with live fire. The two aspects that have given a number of people headache are fast/timed shots from presentation on low-probability targets and one-handed follow-up shots, especially WHO.

apollo11
02-22-2012, 12:34 AM
Good thread.

I feel that I can shoot the LEM at speed in competition well. I agree with Todd that the principal of shooting the trigger with one stroke really helps. I only find that I "stage" the trigger on long shots on small steel. I also think a lot of folks over think the LEM. I had a friend of mine shoot the light LEM P30, and he was all over with it at first because he was trying to diagnose every bit of the trigger instead of focusing on pulling through the shot.

I shoot it well enough to be competitive, and can hang with Glock and XD's on the IPSC field. I also only shoot the long pull after the draw, and after movement where my finger is outside of the trigger guard; otherwise it is from the reset. I also find that I go past the reset point to avoid short stroking the trigger (nothing messes me up more than breaking the rhythm of the string with a short stroke). So to answer the question of winning with the LEM trigger, yes it absolutely can be done.

texag
02-22-2012, 12:50 AM
Let us know how it goes with live fire. The two aspects that have given a number of people headache are fast/timed shots from presentation on low-probability targets and one-handed follow-up shots, especially WHO.

I've got 355 rounds through it since I bought it Saturday. The first issue you mentioned is something I find easier with the LEM trigger, one handed shooting is more difficult, but I think that's a function of a heavier pull weight, more muzzle flip, and my horrible shoulders that have made one handed shooting hurt from the day I first shot a pistol.

ToddG
02-22-2012, 09:05 AM
Obviously, I've spoken to a significant number of people who've transitioned from a Glock/M&P/1911/etc to the LEM. Some have switched back or moved on to something else. The following is my personal observation and is not intended to give anyone a bad case of booboo lip:

The LEM is not a SFA or SAO. Some people who come from the SFA/SAO realm expect the LEM to work the same way because it's "one consistent trigger pull every shot." But it doesn't work like an SFA or SAO trigger.


The people who basically start from scratch and re-learn trigger control slowly with the LEM tend to love it.
The people who stand out in class as the guys who won't slow down to practice a new technique at less than 100% speed tend to drop the LEM, sometimes after many thousands of rounds of banging their heads into the wall.


SLG and I were discussing this just last week. Some folks just won't slow down, retrace their steps, and build up new/different skills. They don't want to take two steps backward in the hope that they might get three steps forward. They're often good shooters, but they rarely achieve excellence. The unfortunate part is that they often expend the time and money and ammo to become excellent, they just aren't willing to take the humble steps necessary.

Having said that, the LEM is not some kind of universal cure for bad shooting, either. Not every human being on Earth will shoot the LEM best. Heck, there are things I do with the Glock better than I did with my P30.

YVK
02-22-2012, 09:35 AM
My conceptual issue with LEM is that I am having a hard time with a problem that LEM is supposed to be helpful with. I think I know why WHO stuff is difficult. I've no problem slowing down {I kind of have to, if I want to get any sort of positive reinforcement from the target) or accepting consequences of not slowing down (see results of 2012 Challenge).

I could quite possibly be overthinking this, but it would be awesomely helpful to know if I always had that much anticipation and it was masked by earlier-breaking triggers, or LEM induces this anticipation in me, or I simply have no clue in all of this.

GJM
02-22-2012, 09:36 PM
Having said that, the LEM is not some kind of universal cure for bad shooting, either. Not every human being on Earth will shoot the LEM best. Heck, there are things I do with the Glock better than I did with my P30.

Todd, can you point to any skilled shooter, that in a measurable way, across a range of drills, shoots a LEM better than a Glock or M&P? In particular, any shooter that can run a LEM support hand only, at speed, comparably to a Glock or M&P?

While there surely may be a person or two that shoots the LEM better than a Glock or M&P, I would bet money that if you tested 100 shooters on the LEM versus a Glock/M&P, at most ten per cent would shoot the HK LEM better. Assuming a number of PF folks shoot LEM at Rogers, I would also lay money if they picked up a Glock on Friday, after four days of shooting LEM, their scores would go up Friday.

I can think of a number of good reasons to carry an HK LEM, but to shoot better scores than a Glock or M&P is not one of the reasons.

apollo11
02-22-2012, 11:31 PM
I'm not Todd, but I shoot the LEM much better than the Glock or S&W trigger---hands down.

By better I mean, faster, more accurately both SHO and WHO (and obviously two handed). This has been true for me at speed and on low probability targets with precision.

ToddG
02-23-2012, 10:48 AM
Todd, can you point to any skilled shooter, that in a measurable way, across a range of drills, shoots a LEM better than a Glock or M&P?

joshs comes immediately to mind. As I said, I shoot it better in some areas... SHO and WHO in particular, oddly enough.

I'm also willing to bet that six months after starting with a DA/SA SIG, JV will be shooting the LEM better than during his previous attempt.

JV_
02-23-2012, 11:01 AM
I'm also willing to bet that six months after starting with a DA/SA SIG, JV will be shooting the LEM better than during his previous attempt.With a borrowed gun, I'd certainly give it another try in 6 months.

It's hard for me to compare my performances with previous guns because I feel like I'm a much better shooter (overall) than I was 12-18 months ago. At the moment, I'm not all that consistent with the Sig at speed, but I know that will change with time and practice.

jdavis
02-23-2012, 01:30 PM
I spend a great deal of time on this forum, I'm not an SME or a professional at any level in the firearms industry, which is why you will see very few post from me.

I have about 22,000 rounds downrange in my P30V2 all of which I shot as if it was a DA/SA trigger (staging or taking the slack out). I will normally shoot a 49/50 Dot torture almost always missing a WHO shot so I do have some skills

Last night at the range I decide to change the way I work the trigger, follow the instruction of Todd and others on the forum (one consistent trigger press) it was tough at first, if by habit I started to stage the trigger I would stop and reset my mind and the trigger. Bottom line I've never shot so well, from bullet hole drills to Changing Gears drill my shooting was improved. A lot of dry fire and a few thousand more rounds I might be ready for AFHF.

Thanks

James

JodyH
02-23-2012, 03:17 PM
I'm pretty sure that I could pick up my Glock 17 and within a few days match or exceed my LEM scores on most drills and skills assessments.
But I still choose the H&K for my daily carry and training gun.
The H&K works better as a complete package for me.
I prefer a hammer to ride when carrying AIWB.
The mag release is less prone to accidental activation yet easier for me to hit when stressed. The magazines design and mag well are easier for me to hit at speed.
Parts and accessories for P2000's are "off the shelf" here locally.
Armorers and LEM knowledgeable instructors are right down the street at FLETC.

The intangibles are why I choose to give up a little in raw performance.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk

joshs
02-23-2012, 03:53 PM
I'm pretty sure that I could pick up my Glock 17 and within a few days match or exceed my LEM scores on most drills and skills assessments.

I thought this would be the case too, but when I briefly switched to a Gen4 17 last summer I didn't notice any improvements. In fact, I saw a noticeable decrease in my first shot hit percentage on low-probability targets. The only thing I can do better with a G17 compared to a P30 is blindly hammer the trigger. My splits are faster, but with a noticeable decrease in accuracy. For example, my FAST body hits with the P30 often fall within the 6 inch circle of the QPT target. I think that the slightly longer trigger movement gives the gun more time to settle before I break the next shot.

GJM,

I don't do a lot of drills that produce data to compare WHO speed shooting. I can say that my WHO FAST scores are better with the P30, but I did have slightly better WHO Acceleration results with the G17. My Switch-Hitting scores, both slow and fast, are better with the P30, but these include both SHO and WHO shooting so I'm not sure if I shot one gun better SHO than WHO.

Doc_Glock
12-31-2019, 03:29 PM
I am bumping this thread because it is a great discussion. And because I love HKs, and find the LEM a super interesting trigger that can be challenging to shoot.
YVK are you still shooting a P30 LEM?
GJM do you still feel the same as in post #4.

Sadly ToddG can not respond😔

My $0.02 from 8-10,000 rounds of various LEM experience:

1. I can shoot it fairly decently with practice. But it takes work.
2. I tend to prefer staging the trigger carefully at speed, then breaking the shot. I don’t think rowing it like a DA trigger is helpful although that was the suggestion of several very experienced shooters in this thread. It is simply not like a DA trigger at all.
3. I think I shoot the lightest TRS better.
4. I think I shoot the shortest pre travel better (4.1?).

YVK
12-31-2019, 03:50 PM
Nope, I moved on several years ago. Running it at speed was just too much work. I have just recently shot the only remaining LEM pistol, from five at its peak, and I was pleasantly surprised how soft and how accurate it was. Wasn't really high speed shooting.

I agree on all of your points, 1-4. I especially preferred the lightest break possible, mine was Grayguns at some 3.75 lbs ( did fine with normal primers but not budget stuff) and reduced travels. My three P30s and one SK all had 4.1 parts and reduced reset. At the end I was treating them as light Glock triggers with a long pretravel.

GJM
12-31-2019, 04:02 PM
I am bumping this thread because it is a great discussion. And because I love HKs, and find the LEM a super interesting trigger that can be challenging to shoot.
YVK are you still shooting a P30 LEM?
GJM do you still feel the same as in post #4.

Sadly ToddG can not respond😔

My $0.02 from 8-10,000 rounds of various LEM experience:

1. I can shoot it fairly decently with practice. But it takes work.
2. I tend to prefer staging the trigger carefully at speed, then breaking the shot. I don’t think rowing it like a DA trigger is helpful although that was the suggestion of several very experienced shooters in this thread. It is simply not like a DA trigger at all.
3. I think I shoot the lightest TRS better.
4. I think I shoot the shortest pre travel better (4.1?).

Yes, I still feel the same way.

I carry a LEM to launch Super, as it is the most shootable trigger for me, in the USP FS and HK45C.

Sauer Koch
12-31-2019, 04:50 PM
I've used my V1 P30 for Gabe's PSS course, and for TacCon, and it's been nothing but a positive experience. TDA & LEM require more work, true, but the results are worth it, IMO.

GOTURBACK
12-31-2019, 07:01 PM
I for the past 10 years have dedicated myself to the HK - LEM variant exclusively, HK 45C lazy wolf HK-HF-MRAP set up as TLG, P2000Sk V1 np3+ internal fcg, P30Sk V1, P30 V1 and my newly acquired KK dated USP 9FS which is currently V1 but will be set up as light lem\tlg before being added to the carry roster. I carry them daily, shoot them weekly at practical action, idpa, 3gun and have been through several training evolutions Southnarc ecqc, Dave Spaulding combative handgun 3 day, & critical space handgun, tac-con 2018.

JodyH
12-31-2019, 07:30 PM
The years I've spent on LEM H&K's and DAO snub nosed revolvers have been some of the most frustrating shooting I've ever done my 30 years of handgunning.
Both made me an immensely better shooter on every other trigger style I've used since.
Trigger control? Yea, I can do that.

Exiledviking
12-31-2019, 10:25 PM
At the end I was treating them as light Glock triggers with a long pretravel.

This is how I see and use the light LEM I have in my HK pistols. I do use the heavy hammer spring in all of them.
It plain works for me.

SsevenN
01-09-2020, 10:54 AM
I am bumping this thread because it is a great discussion. And because I love HKs, and find the LEM a super interesting trigger that can be challenging to shoot.
YVK are you still shooting a P30 LEM?
GJM do you still feel the same as in post #4.

Sadly ToddG can not respond😔

My $0.02 from 8-10,000 rounds of various LEM experience:

1. I can shoot it fairly decently with practice. But it takes work.
2. I tend to prefer staging the trigger carefully at speed, then breaking the shot. I don’t think rowing it like a DA trigger is helpful although that was the suggestion of several very experienced shooters in this thread. It is simply not like a DA trigger at all.
3. I think I shoot the lightest TRS better.
4. I think I shoot the shortest pre travel better (4.1?).

I'm at around 10k on two different P30L LEMs, currently shooting the V4.1 with the gray guns short reset system, not trying to butt in, but I definitely prefer staging any shot that is in the "index card at 7 yards" or greater challenge territory.

I've shot my P30L V4.1 LEMs head to head against my P30S V3s cond1 (also gray guns) in drills/tests like old school FBI bullseye Qual, FASTs, Gabe's Technical Skills Test, "The Tests", etc etc etc., my thoughts.

If I am mentally or physically out of sorts or fatigued, I take a marginal performance hit with LEM, it simply takes more effort to shoot the LEM trigger to the exact standards of striker/cond 1 TDA for me.

With the grip and rip stuff (fast, less demanding accuracy) I can't notice a meaningful difference that translates consistently across multiple range sessions. It's more of an any given Sunday affair.

For me, it is the SHO/WHO and intermediate/slow fire where any LEM version takes the most noticeable dive (think going for 100/100 "the Test" or any string on the old school FBI bull qual, or just slow fire group shooting).

All that said, I still EDC the 4.1 LEM, I daresay my gun handling is already way over trained so in terms of a modifier to my likelihood of surviving a self defense encounter, the point on trigger is moot.

Long story short, LEMs show you the worst side of their personality on the one directional range, but still make an exceptional carry trigger.

JonInWA
01-09-2020, 04:41 PM
In my experience, as Dagga Boy has singularly well pointed out, the LEM is an absolutely superb threat management action. It's not that it's inherently "unshootable," or unimprovable, or that one's skill-set can't be improved with sufficient familiarization/time/practice/use.

My reality is that on a gun-for-gun comparison, LEM versus SFA (in my case, P30L V1.5 LEM versus VP40, both in .40, and both with OEM Meprolight tritium sights), I simply shoot my VP40 mo' betta-I'm equally accurate with it and my P30L V1.5, but I simply can shoot the VP faster. Duh. An LEM simply isn't inherently optimized, optimizable, or really intended with pure shootability as its primary characteristic. Obviously, a talented shooter can excel with it-ToddG, and others certainly have- but arguably if shootability is your key criteria, there are simply other platforms that can maximize that aspect of your shooting with less effort.

And while I've qualified with both for duty use, in my opinion the LEM gun is a superior choice as a duty/threat management action. For a purely competitive shooter, a shooter needing a self-defense gun, a .mil gun, the VP (or similar) may well be an equally viable, if not superior choice; you just have to analyze things regarding your particular criteria/likely use scenarios.

Best, Jon