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LittleLebowski
06-21-2016, 11:13 AM
Who here has done that or trains using reloads and bottlenecked cartridges in a gas driven rifle?

Odin Bravo One
06-21-2016, 11:44 AM
When I did open enrollment I let that happen twice. Both times I was taught that most people can't reload for shit. I never allowed them again.

Investing that kind of money into a course, travel, etc., I'd personally take the plunge and fork out for commercial.

rjohnson4405
06-21-2016, 11:45 AM
I used to exclusively shoot my own reloads in my AR.

I don't buy other people's or company's reloads though.

I always had a factory ammo back up in case something got screwed up on my reloads and caused problems.

Luke
06-21-2016, 11:48 AM
Nevermind

Duelist
06-21-2016, 11:54 AM
In 5.56, I shoot a mix of reloads and factory. If I start shooting more matches, it's gonna turn very heavily to reloads so I can afford to shoot it enough.

In 6.8, it's almost exclusively reloads. Because money, and specific hunting bullets that are harder to find in loaded ammo.

Peally
06-21-2016, 11:58 AM
I'm surprised they're even allowed, I sure as hell wouldn't allow them if I ran a class.

pdb
06-21-2016, 12:06 PM
My reloads are fine. Everyone else's are sketchy. ;)

I have had more failures out of factory loaded .223 / 5.56 (4 Remington .223 failure to fire with a solid center primer hit, out of about 300 rounds in that lot) than out of my reloads. But I'm picky with my brass, full-length resize, measure and trim every case to length, measure every powder throw on a scale, only use 55gr FMJs seated to the cannelure, and I follow that up with a Lee factory crimp die. I throw out any brass with dents or loose primer pockets. I do this on a single stage RCBS press in batches of 100. I don't use a progressive and I don't go for speed.

I would shoot a class with my reloads. I would not advise someone else to shoot a class with theirs, I don't know what their process is like. Does that make me a hypocrite? Maybe.

Jay Cunningham
06-21-2016, 12:08 PM
When I did open enrollment I let that happen twice. Both times I was taught that most people can't reload for shit. I never allowed them again.

Investing that kind of money into a course, travel, etc., I'd personally take the plunge and fork out for commercial.


This.

Just avoid it.

EVERYONE thinks their reloads are great and EVERYONE says "this is the first time this ever happened" when stuff shits the bed.

JCS
06-21-2016, 12:47 PM
What's the problem with doing it?


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Peally
06-21-2016, 12:51 PM
Lowest common denominator trainees is why it's generally banned. Sean's post is gospel.

Odin Bravo One
06-21-2016, 12:56 PM
Most people can't load them properly and the student spends more time fucking around with their gun than shooting. It becomes a distraction the other students are not paying for. It is also a safety hazard in several ways.

My insurance doesn't cover your reloads either. Something happens, and I know they were reloaded bullets, I am very much liable for damages. It is risky enough without added potential for a lawsuit. Especially one I knowingly allowed to be present on my range.

I saw this in courses I taught and courses where I AI'd for other instructors. Most quality professional instructors don't allow reloads for these reasons. It is not worth the headache. And as mentioned above, everyone I have ever met who does that shit, has that shit happen during th course, and to a man, exasperated, frustrated, and embarrassed, tried to explain how this is the first/only time this has ever happened.

HCM
06-21-2016, 01:12 PM
What's the problem with doing it?


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Reloading is great. It lets you shoot more for the same $$$. I've been reloading off and on for about 30 years.

However, as noted everyone thinks their reloads are awesome. Fact is your own reloads and 99% of commercial reloads do not have the QC and consistency of factory ammo.

You are spending time and money to attend a class and learn something as are your fellow students.

Bringing your reloads, commercial reloads or cheap steel cased ammo to class results in malfunctions, slowing down down the class and becoming a distraction, not only for your self but for the others who used their time and money to attend and learn something. It is disrespectful of other students.

Many reputable instructors specifically prohibit use of reloads or steel cased ammo in their classes for these reasons.

Specific to a carbine class, there is a difference between shooting 100 or 200 rounds on your own and running the gun hard for 1700 rounds over 3 days.

Rich@CCC
06-22-2016, 10:18 AM
Sean, I ran all reloads at the carbine class that you and Jack taught at BVRPC (PF members class). I had 1 ammo related malf at the beginning of the class and it was a stuck case. You reamed the chamber and all was good after.

I get that reloads can be a problem, I do. However, if I cannot shoot my hand loads, I could never afford even the little training I can now.

BTW, I can't thank you guys and Tom Jones enough for that opportunity. It was a class that I'd never have been able to attend if not for all of your generosity and I took every moment of it to heart and continue to work on the skills you started to instill in us.

orionz06
06-22-2016, 10:46 AM
Bringing your reloads, commercial reloads or cheap steel cased ammo to class results in malfunctions, slowing down down the class and becoming a distraction, not only for your self but for the others who used their time and money to attend and learn something. It is disrespectful of other students.



I disagree on steel case, assuming the gun works with it. That's usually a minor tweak.

If the idea that steel case ammo slows the class down means it shouldn't be allowed then XM193 or variants of should also be considered. I've lost more time to folks screwing with that than steel case.



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Odin Bravo One
06-22-2016, 11:56 AM
Sean, I ran all reloads at the carbine class that you and Jack taught at BVRPC (PF members class). I had 1 ammo related malf at the beginning of the class and it was a stuck case. You reamed the chamber and all was good after.

I get that reloads can be a problem, I do. However, if I cannot shoot my hand loads, I could never afford even the little training I can now.

BTW, I can't thank you guys and Tom Jones enough for that opportunity. It was a class that I'd never have been able to attend if not for all of your generosity and I took every moment of it to heart and continue to work on the skills you started to instill in us.

My suggestion is that you don't shoot reloads at a course. That's it. If you want to shoot your reloads, it's up to you. But since I don't do open enrollment anymore, I don't worry about it much personally. All of my .300 that weekend was my own hand loads, but I wouldn't have run them if I had been student. The higher the round count, the higher the probability of an issue.

Jay Cunningham
06-22-2016, 01:00 PM
I disagree on steel case, assuming the gun works with it. That's usually a minor tweak.

If the idea that steel case ammo slows the class down means it shouldn't be allowed then XM193 or variants of should also be considered. I've lost more time to folks screwing with that than steel case.



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I agree that steel case ammo is not usually the issue it's often made out to be. Just make sure your gun likes it beforehand.

HCM
06-22-2016, 02:51 PM
I agree that steel case ammo is not usually the issue it's often made out to be. Just make sure your gun likes it beforehand.

But how many people actually do this ?

Admittedly, most of the issues I've seen personally have been with home or commercial reloads.

In two of the most recent classes I've attended, people had significant issues with Freedom munitions commercial reloads, none of them had shot any of that particular ammo before. They bought it for the class.

okie john
06-22-2016, 03:10 PM
Most people can't load them properly and the student spends more time fucking around with their gun than shooting. It becomes a distraction the other students are not paying for. It is also a safety hazard in several ways.

I've also seen this in matches.


Okie John

rob_s
06-22-2016, 04:00 PM
But how many people actually do this ?

Admittedly, most of the issues I've seen personally have been with home or commercial reloads.

In two of the most recent classes I've attended, people had significant issues with Freedom munitions commercial reloads, none of them had shot any of that particular ammo before. They bought it for the class.

The couple of times I was at classes where someone had a problem with steel-cased ammo I was able to "fix" their gun for them at the first break with my little bag of tricks.

The couple of times I was at classes where someone had a problem with reloads there wasn't a damn thing I could do.

ST911
06-22-2016, 06:09 PM
The word "reload" is pretty useless without definition. A reload is a fired case that's being reused. The devil is in the details.

I would make a significant distinction between someone's home-loads, and ammunition that is commercially remanufactured to a standard. I think that many people making the former probably shouldn't, and I trust no one's reloads for anything that matters. Those that produce the latter can be trended over time, and I've watched some particular ones earn their reputation by the pallet.

ffhounddog
06-22-2016, 06:38 PM
I have used my Reloads at three courses one of then was a SPR type precision class so I guess it equals two if you take that one away. The important thing is to crimp the bullet in the gun. If you do that I have not had an issue. When I did not crimp a bullet that is when I had the issues with my reloads in a magazine fed gun in .223.

Now I just run Wolf.

John Hearne
06-23-2016, 05:02 PM
I don't know if I'd run a carbine class with homegrown reloads given the extra steps associated with reloading rifle cases. With that said, I shot Rogers entirely with reloads and probably would not have been able to buy enough factory ammo given that I shot a 45. I am pretty picky with QC and case gauge everything I crank out.

mmc45414
06-24-2016, 05:48 AM
As mentioned, the term "reload" is used in an all encompassing manner. I "reload" practice pistol ammo while I watch TV, ammo that I will be blasting off in situations where a malf will present an opportunity to practice clearance. I also "reload" ammo for F-class where all of the cases of a common head stamp are de-primed, trimmed, cleaned, and then weighed and segregated into groups where all cases are within 0.5 grains. Then all charges are weighed and individually trickled, and bullets seated with the same setup without disturbing the press. Both approaches yields "reloaded" ammo.

So perhaps taking a little extra care (no TV? :) ) on the rounds headed for class, with a proven selection of components, drop all into a case gage, confirm AOL, and run a couple hundred extra through the rifle(s) you are planning to take, might be a worthy approach?

Rich@CCC
06-24-2016, 08:49 AM
I would not have taken my hand loads to that carbine class if I had not already shot several thousand to vet my process.

I did have an issue with some .45 loads at a pistol class once. I had been loading a low power cartridge for range use and did not notice any issues when shooting casually at the indoor range. I had a fairly high FTF/stovepipe rate at the class. It gave me an opportunity to practice clearing stovepipes but was a bit embarrassing. As it was a pistol diagnostics class and not a fast paced tactical kind of class, it did not slow the training.

ST911
06-24-2016, 10:38 AM
Packing for a sleep-away class today. The only ammo I'll take is from a trusted source and part of a batch I've already used. Driving too far and investing too much to chance doing otherwise.

redbone
06-24-2016, 02:58 PM
Many reputable instructors specifically prohibit use of reloads or steel cased ammo in their classes for these reasons.
.

But do they? I have seen this statedbbefore on forums, but haven't seen an open enrollment course prohibit Wolf or other steel case ammo.

I'm sure some instructors somewhere prohibit reload (yes, instructor would need to define reloads), but I haven't seen it stated in the course descriptions of the more popular instructors' offerings. Maybe you are told after you commit the class and get further instructions?

orionz06
06-24-2016, 03:13 PM
But do they? I have seen this statedbbefore on forums, but haven't seen an open enrollment course prohibit Wolf or other steel case ammo.

I'm sure some instructors somewhere prohibit reload (yes, instructor would need to define reloads), but I haven't seen it stated in the course descriptions of the more popular instructors' offerings. Maybe you are told after you commit the class and get further instructions?

There's a range in Texas that doesn't allow steel OR reloads and doesn't allow the shooters to keep their own brass AND charges a range fee. They may also require the shooters to police the brass as well for them.




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redbone
06-24-2016, 03:52 PM
There are also ranges that require you to buy your ammo from the range itself, regardless of whether you were planning to shoot factory Ammo. But that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm gently challenging the assertion that many instructors don't allow steel cased ammo and reloads. I could be wrong, as I'm not the expert on open enrollment courses. But of the handful I've taken, it was never mentioned. I also don't recall seeing it in the dozens of courses descriptions I've read.

Jay Cunningham
06-25-2016, 07:09 AM
Most people don't pay attention to the suggestions and requirements put out by instructors.

If the instructors writes down "500 rounds factory FMJ" and the student shows up with 500 rounds of his personal reloads... what's the instructor going to do? Kick the guy out of class?

It's within their prerogative, but typically they're going to soldier on and deal with it and hope for the best.

ST911
06-25-2016, 07:26 AM
Most people don't pay attention to the suggestions and requirements put out by instructors.

If the instructors writes down "500 rounds factory FMJ" and the student shows up with 500 rounds of his personal reloads... what's the instructor going to do? Kick the guy out of class?

It's within their prerogative, but typically they're going to soldier on and deal with it and hope for the best.

Few people and places seem to hold students truly accountable for packing lists and pre-reqs. I understand the implications of sending someone home, but I wonder how many times you'd actually have to do it...

Jay Cunningham
06-25-2016, 07:36 AM
Few people and places seem to hold students truly accountable for packing lists and pre-reqs.

Because on the civilian side it's a business, and most trainers would quickly put themselves out of business if they were that rigid.



I understand the implications of sending someone home, but I wonder how many times you'd actually have to do it...

From what I've seen, it would happen a lot if checking off boxes at the beginning were a go/no-go.


Perhaps some instructors pride themselves on being hard-core about this thing, but I've been to eleventy billion various classes and I've never seen it. Most instructors don't even do a formal emergency procedures brief.

I imagine it's different if you're an LEO or .mil instructor and guys are required to show up and if they aren't 100% prepared he tells them GTFO. I can see that.

Odin Bravo One
06-25-2016, 08:38 AM
There are also ranges that require you to buy your ammo from the range itself, regardless of whether you were planning to shoot factory Ammo. But that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm gently challenging the assertion that many instructors don't allow steel cased ammo and reloads. I could be wrong, as I'm not the expert on open enrollment courses. But of the handful I've taken, it was never mentioned. I also don't recall seeing it in the dozens of courses descriptions I've read.

Dipshits that can't Do what they have been instructed are precisely why I don't teach open enrollment.

I would never allow personally reloaded ammunition in a course. For the fifteen different companies I have taught for over the years, they are not allowed either.

olstyn
06-25-2016, 09:34 AM
Because on the civilian side it's a business, and most trainers would quickly put themselves out of business if they were that rigid.

That, and are instructors really going to waste time checking to make sure students' ammo is all shiny and same headstamp? Even that wouldn't catch people who wet tumble and sort their brass. Of course, if somebody's anal enough to sort brass, they're probably pretty squared away on their reloading process, and their ammo will probably run without issue.


none of them had shot any of that particular ammo before. They bought it for the class.

That seems to be the true issue, not whether it's new, commercially reloaded, or personally reloaded. If people haven't vetted that gun/ammo combo, they're just asking for trouble. If, OTOH, somebody's run 3K rounds of the ammo in question through their gun(s) without issue, there's no real reason to expect that the next 3K won't run fine, too, regardless of whether it's factory new or reloads.

Jay Cunningham
06-25-2016, 10:40 AM
This is probably best stated in a separate thread, but you just see all kinds of shit at shooting classes.

Probably the most "squared-away" students are the ones who have had like two or three classes. They're the ones who are terrified of being "that guy" (whatever the fuck that even really means) and they show up shitting Tiffany cufflinks.

Some of the "worst" students are the ones with elevnty billion classes under their belt... actually what it typically looks like are students with a very well-rounded skillset who tend to be friends with the instructor. Many times they show up with no fucking zero or with brand new shit they've never even shot. Or reloads because the rules don't apply to them because they're friends with the instructor.

It's just how it is.

redbone
06-25-2016, 12:02 PM
Most people don't pay attention to the suggestions and requirements put out by instructors.

If the instructors writes down "500 rounds factory FMJ" and the student shows up with 500 rounds of his personal reloads... what's the instructor going to do? Kick the guy out of class?

It's within their prerogative, but typically they're going to soldier on and deal with it and hope for the best.

Not following instructions is one thing, but I'm saying those instructions don't exist. It appears that instructors (outside of Sean M, apparently) don't instruct students that they must shoot factory (brass, or otherwise) ammo.

I just looked at the gear requirements for LAV, Pat McNamara, Kyle Defoor, Jeff Gonzales, Ken Hackathorn, Northern Red, and Frank Proctor. There's no mention of reloads being prohibited. (Gonzales says bring "functional ammo", no one else says anything about ammo rather than giving a round count.)

Either they allow reloads, or they tell you at some point after signing up that reloads aren't allowed (which I doubt is how they operate.)

---

I imagine its easier to prohibit them at large schools with gov clients. No one shooting on Uncle Sugar's dime comes to a class with homegrown ammo.

orionz06
06-25-2016, 12:15 PM
There are also ranges that require you to buy your ammo from the range itself, regardless of whether you were planning to shoot factory Ammo. But that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm gently challenging the assertion that many instructors don't allow steel cased ammo and reloads. I could be wrong, as I'm not the expert on open enrollment courses. But of the handful I've taken, it was never mentioned. I also don't recall seeing it in the dozens of courses descriptions I've read.

From what I can tell it's largely range dependent. Many instructors, off the record, will say no steel case and no reloads, but I've yet to see anyone actually do anything about it. The instructors who teach at that range, or taught, did have their descriptions altered. The range also promoted the fuck outta the class on their own as they were able to make a killing on once fired brass.


Not following instructions is one thing, but I'm saying those instructions don't exist. It appears that instructors (outside of Sean M, apparently) don't instruct students that they must shoot factory (brass, or otherwise) ammo.

Who is gonna limit their customer base?

Jay Cunningham
06-25-2016, 12:31 PM
This is what it says on my web page for Protective Carbine 1:


You MUST HAVE the following to participate: ballistic eye protection, filtered hearing protection, sturdy belt, adjusting two point sling, magazine carrier, and a semi-auto carbine of at least 5.45mm caliber.

You MUST ALSO HAVE: three spare magazines (more are better), 300 rounds of factory ammunition, weapon lubricant, and a tourniquet (SOF-T or CAT). Do your best to arrive with a 100 yard zero. You need to bring lunch.



This is what it says for my Protective Carbine 2:


You MUST HAVE the following to participate: ballistic eye protection, filtered hearing protection, sturdy belt, adjusting two point sling, carbine magazine carrier, semi-auto carbine of at least 5.45mm caliber, weapon mounted light attached to your carbine, and three spare carbine magazines (more are better).

You MUST ALSO HAVE: 750 rounds of factory carbine ammunition, 60 rounds of frangible carbine ammunition, holster (Appendix Inside the Waistband *is* allowed), semi-auto pistol of at least .380 caliber, 50 rounds factory FMJ pistol ammunition, hand held flashlight, weapon lubricant, and a tourniquet (SOF-T or CAT). Your carbine is expected to have a confirmed zero with BOTH iron sights AND optics.

Clobbersaurus
06-25-2016, 01:08 PM
I've seen students shoot all manner of ammo at courses. The worst for malfunctions I've witnessed, bar none, have been Tula and Barnaul.

I think that unless you are a relatively famous instructor, being rigid with ammo restrictions is a sure fire way to starve.

Competition instructors would never get away with banning reloaded ammo.

Odin Bravo One
06-25-2016, 01:17 PM
All yours.

cheshire_cat
06-25-2016, 01:53 PM
Dipshits that can't Do what they have been instructed are precisely why I don't teach open enrollment.
Yeah stupid civilians and non-cops!

Odin Bravo One
06-25-2016, 01:59 PM
You're so right. You, and so many others have this topic nailed. I'll take my ignorance elsewhere, so as to not pollute the expert commentary.

cheshire_cat
06-25-2016, 02:10 PM
You're so right. You, and so many others have this topic nailed. I'll take my ignorance elsewhere, so as to not pollute the expert commentary.
I do not profess to know anything about the topic. 5/10 for rage quit though. I was merely pointing out your anti civilian and non cop sentiment when comes to providing instruction, which you have made quite clear.

rjohnson4405
06-25-2016, 02:50 PM
I do not profess to know anything about the topic. 5/10 for rage quit though. I was merely pointing out your anti civilian and non cop sentiment when comes to providing instruction, which you have made quite clear.

Not that Sean needs defended but you realize he taught a course to Pistol-Forum members for free as recently as last year despite his "hate for civilians/non-cops". That's a 2O+ year active duty shooter who took out of his limited time with his family to teach us for FREE.

And never has he said every open-enrollment guy was a dip-shit, and not even sure where you got the part about him putting LE over civilians.

It takes one dipshit to ruin a class of 10 other squared away guys for the instructor and other students. After teaching as long as he has it's amazing he's not more jaded.

1/10 dipshits in open enrollment is a hard stat to avoid coming true. Go be a martyr somewhere else.

JCS
06-25-2016, 03:09 PM
What are your guys thoughts on reloads for a pistol class? It's about the only way I can afford 500+ rounds of ammo lol


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LittleLebowski
06-25-2016, 03:39 PM
Yeah stupid civilians and non-cops!

You couldn't be more off base nor anymore truly ignorant. I mean it. Don't pull that shit with our SMEs again whom volunteer their free time to not only share their knowledge for free but to teach free classes for the forum community here. You assumed and ran you mouth. Guess who is the ass here?

Jay Cunningham
06-25-2016, 03:51 PM
What are your guys thoughts on reloads for a pistol class? It's about the only way I can afford 500+ rounds of ammo lol


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Pistol reloads are even worse IMO.

cheshire_cat
06-25-2016, 03:53 PM
Didn't take long for the SME white knights to come sweeping in. Sean M seems like a tough guy and doesn't need people coming to his rescue. If I disagree with him I will speak my mind. If you want to ban me, oh well, thanks for the gift card.

olstyn
06-25-2016, 04:04 PM
Pistol reloads are even worse IMO.

How so? Pistol is a simpler reloading process, right? Shouldn't there be less to go wrong?

HCM
06-25-2016, 04:09 PM
How so? Pistol is a simpler reloading process, right? Shouldn't there be less to go wrong?

It should be but because it's simpler, people are going faster, not paying attention and not doing the QC / prep they do with rifle ammo.

olstyn
06-25-2016, 04:23 PM
Didn't take long for the SME white knights to come sweeping in. Sean M seems like a tough guy and doesn't need people coming to his rescue. If I disagree with him I will speak my mind. If you want to ban me, oh well, thanks for the gift card.

I don't think you're getting banned, and I'm pretty sure it's your tone, rather than your disagreement, that drew LL's ire. Disagreeing with folks is fine; calling out people who've served our country with distinction in a dismissive, insulting way, not so much. I think if you frame what you're saying a bit more cordially going forward, you'll get a better reaction. OTOH, if you want to start fights on forums, well, that's your business, but I don't recommend it.

olstyn
06-25-2016, 04:26 PM
It should be but because it's simpler, people are going faster, not paying attention and not doing the QC / prep they do with rifle ammo.

Fair enough; I guess I learned my lesson on that when I had some 9mm get stuck in the chamber, thankfully during a practice session rather than a match. Ever since, I've case gauged/chamber checked *every* piece of ammo that comes from my press. The failure rate is very low, but a few pieces here and there get rejected, which clearly means that doing that QC process is worthwhile.

LittleLebowski
06-25-2016, 04:35 PM
Didn't take long for the SME white knights to come sweeping in. Sean M seems like a tough guy and doesn't need people coming to his rescue. If I disagree with him I will speak my mind. If you want to ban me, oh well, thanks for the gift card.

Except, you weren't disagreeing with him. You just assumed that since he said he wasn't teaching open enrollment classes that he therefore hates anyone not military or law enforcement. You took that non data point and ran with it like all keyboard commandos. When corrected, did you take it gracefully, learn not to leap to assumptions, and perhaps even apologize? Nope, anyone correcting your boorish intellect and Internet-only bellicose tone is automatically white knighting for an SME. It's not that we are offended that someone like yourself who's only here to find reasons to take umbrage is insulting (for no reason and with not a fucking shred of supporting data) someone who actually does something for all American shooters. Are you that much of a petulant, stupid (I mean this literally) man that you can't just admit you were wrong, apologize, and drive on? That was a serious question, if you cannot answer it, you're gone. If the answer is "Yes",you're gone but at least you're man enough to admit what you are and might perhaps someday work at intelligence, humility, and speaking online in the same tone you would use in person.

Josh Runkle
06-25-2016, 04:36 PM
What are your guys thoughts on reloads for a pistol class? It's about the only way I can afford 500+ rounds of ammo lol


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A pistol class usually involves a lot of travel expenses, a few nights of hotels, a few nights of food and drinks out with the rest of the group and a hefty course cost that's generally about $200-300/day. 500 rounds of ammo is the cheapest part of the course.

If the course requires 500 rounds, I would buy 500 rounds of factory ammo that you know will run well in your gun, and then bring at least another 500 in reloads (or, hopefully, factory) as spare ammo.

Most classes use less than the recommended amount, but occasionally, sometimes they might have time for extra reps, and when they ask if everybody has extra ammo, you don't want to be the one person that only brought exactly what was asked (unless you flew for the class).

El Cid
06-25-2016, 04:38 PM
Yeah stupid civilians and non-cops!

I don't believe Sean was saying all non-mil and non-LE are stupid. We all know that isn't the case. But I get what he's doing. By limiting classes to mil/LE there is a higher baseline for the students. You know they have had some kind of formal training to get there. A private citizen could be a Rob Leathem or it could be some soup sandwich who is a danger to himself and others. Sure, there are mil/LE who are also in that category but in my experience those folks do not pay for training like this. And if their agency is sending them they have been vetted and/or are on a tactical team.

I think Rob was with me in Defoor's Advanced Handgun a few years ago when a student was a HUGE safety risk. Luckily the guy self-eliminated but KD said he was about to send him home anyway. The student was wearing Multicam pants and shirt, shemagh, an empty plate carrier with the horizontal holster, and bragged about "multiple tours in AFG." Oh and he had the "operator beard." KD had us each run a quick assessment drill that required drawing from the holster and shooting the target only about 7 or 10 yards away. This doofus kept drawing his Beretta and mashing the trigger with all his might. The safety was on so not much happened. Even after that was brought to his attention he did the same thing.

Oh... And it turns out the doofus had been to AFG a few times. He was an Arabic translator. This was back when KD was with Alias though after hearing the guy's introduction, I feel sure he convinced whoever he spoke with that he was good to go for an advanced class.

rjohnson4405
06-25-2016, 05:12 PM
Didn't take long for the SME white knights to come sweeping in. Sean M seems like a tough guy and doesn't need people coming to his rescue. If I disagree with him I will speak my mind. If you want to ban me, oh well, thanks for the gift card.

If by white knighting you mean giving direct contradicting information based on personal experience compared to what you're gleaning from a couple forum posts, yeah I guess.

No one said you couldn't speak your mind, but we get to speak our mind on what we think your opinion's worth. If we don't, bullshit like yours outweighs people with actual experience, unless you have some to rival the SMEs on this board?

I'm sure your contributions are worth you annoying and exhausting our moderators/SMEs. :rolleyes:

rjohnson4405
06-25-2016, 05:29 PM
So much irony in Sean blaming dipshits for ruining training courses, and then cheshire_cat playing a part in ruining things like Tom's giveaway.

Back to the thread, like stated ammo tends to be the cheapest part of the training class budget while having a huge impact on the shooter's performance and ability to learn depending on how reliable it is.

It's akin to showing up with cheap magazines or a cheaper, un-reliable gun because you couldn't afford something better. For a little bit more money you can prevent something from potentially affecting your ability to get your (larger sum of) money's worth .

TCinVA
06-25-2016, 06:06 PM
Didn't take long for the SME white knights to come sweeping in. Sean M seems like a tough guy and doesn't need people coming to his rescue. If I disagree with him I will speak my mind. If you want to ban me, oh well, thanks for the gift card.

This place is like a club. Some have been members of the club for a long time and are relatively well known around the place. Then you get more recent members who seem to behave as if the place didn't exist until they showed up and want to install VIP service of Grey Goose for $300 bucks a bottle while some obnoxious thrusting techno is playing at ear-splitting levels.

The established members are just trying to enjoy a pint and a nice pipe and have a laugh together about shit the silk shirt and Axe body spray crowd doesn't get...but the spray tanned dudes hear the chuckles of the guys in the well-worn leather chairs and get all insecure and have to start monkey posturing. We're sitting there having a nice smoke and some dude with a Breightling he bought at Costco has to go aggro and "You wanna go, bro??? Huh, bro??? You wanna go???"

That's why people are calling you out. No social graces or appreciation of the fact that the party didn't start when you arrived. No history or understanding of the personalities behind the screen names or the enormous personal generosity many of them have shown in public and behind the scenes.

No appreciation for the generosity that you have personally been shown.

Some of us manage to disagree with one another all the time without being an insufferable little shit about it. You, apparently, can't manage that.

So it is with all of my heart that I tell you to go fuck yourself.

SLG
06-25-2016, 09:11 PM
I'm not speaking for Sean in anyway at all...as if he needs me or anyone else to.

When dealing with .gov/.mil and sometimes LEO classes, you SOMETIMES get better, more squared away shooters than an open enrollment, That is usually only true at the upper levels. What you do get pretty much every single time in my experience, is a group of guys using appropriate guns, holsters, magazines and ammo. Usually all the same or extremely similar. They usually have some spares of it all as well. This allows the class to focus on skill development, rather than working through the myriad gear issues that can crop up when everyone has their own, different stuff. Some of that is likely to be awesome, but some is likely to be not so awesome.

I like seeing all the gear people bring to class, but I prefer to just see that they all have stuff that is gtg.

For the past 15 years or so, all of my training classes have involved my employer's guns/mags and ammo. That is true whether it was a work class, a closed class, or a private class that I went to on my own. Of course stuff breaks from time to time, but not often, and I have spares. One time in the last 15 years, I took a rifle class with my own gun. The bolt lugs broke a couple hundred rounds into it and I had no spare bolt with me. I did have a spare rifle, but it was less ideal for that coursework. A buddy gave me his complete BCG to drop into my gun, which I did. Then a primer popped out and jammed up my hammer. Go figure. Somedays you're the windshield, some days you're the bug. :-)

As for reloads, I reload some pretty mean LR ammo. I have in fact never had an issue with it, and I have worn a couple of barrels out. I started doing that so I could go to some LR classes and matches. I have never taken those loads to either, as a case of factory FGMM is a much more satisfactory way to go, IME.

Everyone thinks their reloads are great. Maybe they are. I don't want to find out I'm wrong after flying across the country and spending days of my limited personal time.

Clobbersaurus
06-25-2016, 09:23 PM
I notice that after my original post in this thread that Sean M. seemed to bow out of the thread in frustration. I hope that wasn't due to my post. It wasn't directed at him in any way, as he said previously that he does not teach open enrolment courses. I was strictly speaking from my experience with only open enrolment courses.

Courses do not fill up quickly in my area and budgets are tight with most shooters, which means we see a lot of reloads and steel case ammo. FWIW, I only shoot factory ammo through my guns, and have done so in all the courses I have taken.

If I'm spreading derp I appolgize. I will read more and post less.

LittleLebowski
06-25-2016, 09:27 PM
Fair enough; I guess I learned my lesson on that when I had some 9mm get stuck in the chamber, thankfully during a practice session rather than a match. Ever since, I've case gauged/chamber checked *every* piece of ammo that comes from my press. The failure rate is very low, but a few pieces here and there get rejected, which clearly means that doing that QC process is worthwhile.

I do the same.

SLG
06-25-2016, 09:37 PM
Competition instructors would never get away with banning reloaded ammo.

The few competition classes I have attended over the years had much bigger issues than reloads. Lots of competition guns don't run. The top guys whose guns run, usually don't take classes.*




*The above is a gross stereotype, and should not be taken too seriously.

mmc45414
07-02-2016, 08:10 PM
It should be but because it's simpler, people are going faster, not paying attention and not doing the QC / prep they do with rifle ammo.
I think more potentially cruddy brass might be another factor.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

Rich@CCC
07-02-2016, 09:14 PM
Also, as I found out when you load for economy there is a fine line between economy and failure. The smaller charges and greater percentage/ratio in the margin of error also has greater effect on the product.

I wasn't trying to say that reloads should be allowed at every class. I know there are plenty of problems related to hand loaded ammo. I also know what measures I take to make sure that my ammo is not a problem for me or others.

Any trainer that forbids hand loads probably has ample empirical data supporting his/her decision and I would never argue with them. I just will not, in all likelihood be able to attend one of their classes.

SecondsCount
07-03-2016, 03:20 PM
This place is like a club. Some have been members of the club for a long time and are relatively well known around the place.
...........
So it is with all of my heart that I tell you to go fuck yourself.

I came into this thread to offer 25 years of reloading experience to the topic at hand and I see this, and yes, I have been part of the club since the beginning. The reality is that I thought this was NOT a club but a forum to discuss ideas on how to improve all aspects of the shooting sports.

Tom, if this is the kind of banter that you are going to allow on your forum then I will have to leave as I do not want to be a part of it. My suggestions are to delete the offending posts, take them offline, and move on. I respect all of you guys but it was knocked down quite a bit in this thread.

The anti-reloading rhetoric on this forum has been something I have had to deal with since I joined. If you don't want to reload, or have had a bad experience with reloading then I get your hesitancy but throwing all of us that take the time to make sure it is done right in with the shit heads isn't really fair. My family and I shoot around 10K rounds a year of reloads, saving a substantial amount of money, and allowing for ammunition that works best in our firearms. I have shot thousands of reloads in classes including 223. In one class that I took I had a feeding issue with some 40 that I loaded and learned a lesson, the M&P40 was a little more finicky than my Sig P226 that I tested them in and from there I tightened up the tolerances.

I agree, not everyone knows how to reload but then again, not everyone knows how to shoot a pistol, keep it pointed in a safe direction, or use quality gear when they come to classes. Getting on a forum and raising awareness about these issues will only help to get quality people, gear, and ammo into your class.

TCinVA
07-03-2016, 07:44 PM
I've never said a word about people who reload, or about the process itself. I have absolutely no problem with reloading. The only reason I don't reload myself is because I don't have the space to set up a station of my own.

My quote was directed at the dude who decided to act like a dickhead by insulting Sean, a friend of mine...a friend who has used his precious leave time to offer FREE TRAINING to members of this forum and who has engaged in a number of personal acts of generosity behind the scenes as well as giving his time and expertise to the forum. My quote was directed at the dude who decided to act like a dickhead by spitting on the gift certificate that Tom gave him out of his own pocket. Tom is a friend of mine...a friend who has helped build and run this forum despite supporting a wife who was nearly killed in the line of duty, a child he's had to play Mr. Mom to during her recovery, and trying to get a business up and running despite losing his business partner due to cancer.

My comments have absolutely nothing to do with reloading. It has to do with people acting like dickheads to people who helped build this place and make it a useful resource. The people he acted like a dickhead toward are people that the founder of this place brought in personally because he valued them as human beings and what they have to offer to the wider world.

The founder of PF isn't with us anymore, sadly. But I can go back to this place he built and read things from him that still make me think and that make me smile. I can interact with the people he carefully selected to be here in the positions they are in. And every time one of them clicks the X button on their browser rather than make the contribution Todd hoped they would make because some dickhead can't act like a reasonable human being, EVERY member of the forum loses. More than they know.

I said this place is a club because A. it's a useful metaphor to describe someone's unwelcome behavior and B. it's a place I gather with friends and with other intelligent people for fellowship and for the transfer of knowledge. It's not a club in the exclusionary sense...it's open to anybody as long as they behave themselves.

This dude utterly failed the test.

So, again, my comments had nothing to do with you, or with reloading, or with the use of reloads in a class. In my experience reloads are entirely a function of the attention to detail of the person doing it, and lots of people lack the requisite attention to detail to do the job properly...and I've seen plenty of people show up to class with reloaded or remanufactured ammo they got from Sum Dood at a gunshow and then hold up the class as a result. This leads to instructor policies about use of reloaded ammunition. But I have yet to see an instructor inspect anyone's loadout and throw them out over suspicion that they are using reloaded ammo.

It's a caution given for the benefit of people who don't know any better.

LittleLebowski
07-03-2016, 08:16 PM
Dude, nothing was directed at you. Do a little skimming.


I came into this thread to offer 25 years of reloading experience to the topic at hand and I see this, and yes, I have been part of the club since the beginning. The reality is that I thought this was NOT a club but a forum to discuss ideas on how to improve all aspects of the shooting sports.

Tom, if this is the kind of banter that you are going to allow on your forum then I will have to leave as I do not want to be a part of it. My suggestions are to delete the offending posts, take them offline, and move on. I respect all of you guys but it was knocked down quite a bit in this thread.

The anti-reloading rhetoric on this forum has been something I have had to deal with since I joined. If you don't want to reload, or have had a bad experience with reloading then I get your hesitancy but throwing all of us that take the time to make sure it is done right in with the shit heads isn't really fair. My family and I shoot around 10K rounds a year of reloads, saving a substantial amount of money, and allowing for ammunition that works best in our firearms. I have shot thousands of reloads in classes including 223. In one class that I took I had a feeding issue with some 40 that I loaded and learned a lesson, the M&P40 was a little more finicky than my Sig P226 that I tested them in and from there I tightened up the tolerances.

I agree, not everyone knows how to reload but then again, not everyone knows how to shoot a pistol, keep it pointed in a safe direction, or use quality gear when they come to classes. Getting on a forum and raising awareness about these issues will only help to get quality people, gear, and ammo into your class.

HCM
07-03-2016, 09:40 PM
So the OP was asking about taking a carbine class with re-loads.

I've been reloading off and on for over 30 years, rifle, pistol and shotgun.

Right now I get reasonable quantities of 9mm, .223 and .40 from work and I buy additional .223 and 9mm. At current prices and with my current work schedule it's not feasible to load for these calibers. I do however save my brass for when I retire and the calculation changes. I presently reload for less common and more expensive claibers such as .44 Special,45-70, 30-40 Krag etc.

I did not always get .223 from work. Years ago our rifle program was limited and ammo availability was an issue. I bought 2k of Privi-Partizan .223 to attend my first carbine class with Pat Rogers ( on my own time and at my own expense).

Pat was one of those instructors who prohibited reloads and later steel case ammo in his classes.,he did so for verbal reasons.

One of these was prioritization of his students time, all of his students, not just the one guy having constant problems. Some students can become "vampires" sucking up all the instructors attention to the detriment of the other students. There are several causes of this but a shooter with constant gear or ammo problems is one.

Despite his gruff manner, Pat's solution to this was to always have loaner guns and spare ammo availible so his student could try and salvage the training they came for. He would, however never let students run reloads (usually commercial) or steel case rifle ammo through his loaner guns.

To seconds count, I would say like many on P-F, you are the 1%. I've had a few issues with my own reloads over ther years, thankfully none catastrophic. However, I've seen many issues at classes and competitions with reloads, both personal and commercial. I've been to two classes where myself and other students gave ammo to a shooter (in one instance two shooters) so they would be able to complete the class. We were being nice, but it was also in our own interest since their ammo issues had become a distraction for a class we had all spent our own time and money to attend.

I can get more money and more ammo but I can't get more time.

With the exception of Black Hills, I would normally trust my own reloads more than commercial reloads but I still would not take my own reloads to a training class I'm paying to attend. Given the costs of tuition, travel, hotel etc, as noted ammo is often the least expensive element of attending training.

mmc45414
07-04-2016, 10:24 AM
Who here has done that or trains using reloads and bottlenecked cartridges in a gas driven rifle?

Had a bunch of reloading/not reloading commentary typed up I decided to delete, but just to bring it back to LL's original question, let's assume you by now have checked that the particular class you are planning will permit it.

If-Then perhaps a plan would include all of the additional gaging and inspection and testing steps that have been suggested, and also pack along extra factory ammo in case you have an issue? Tapping into a stockpile in the trunk of the car would not be too disruptive. Backup ammo would not be so different than taking the backup rifle you are probably planning to take.

From the beginning of this thread I have suspected you are talking about Blackout. If so, maybe even take your 556 ammo and upper also?

SecondsCount
07-04-2016, 04:55 PM
I've never said a word about people who reload, or about the process itself. I have absolutely no problem with reloading. The only reason I don't reload myself is because I don't have the space to set up a station of my own.

My quote was directed at the dude who decided to act like a dickhead by insulting Sean, a friend of mine...a friend who has used his precious leave time to offer FREE TRAINING to members of this forum and who has engaged in a number of personal acts of generosity behind the scenes as well as giving his time and expertise to the forum. My quote was directed at the dude who decided to act like a dickhead by spitting on the gift certificate that Tom gave him out of his own pocket. Tom is a friend of mine...a friend who has helped build and run this forum despite supporting a wife who was nearly killed in the line of duty, a child he's had to play Mr. Mom to during her recovery, and trying to get a business up and running despite losing his business partner due to cancer.

My comments have absolutely nothing to do with reloading. It has to do with people acting like dickheads to people who helped build this place and make it a useful resource. The people he acted like a dickhead toward are people that the founder of this place brought in personally because he valued them as human beings and what they have to offer to the wider world.

The founder of PF isn't with us anymore, sadly. But I can go back to this place he built and read things from him that still make me think and that make me smile. I can interact with the people he carefully selected to be here in the positions they are in. And every time one of them clicks the X button on their browser rather than make the contribution Todd hoped they would make because some dickhead can't act like a reasonable human being, EVERY member of the forum loses. More than they know.

I said this place is a club because A. it's a useful metaphor to describe someone's unwelcome behavior and B. it's a place I gather with friends and with other intelligent people for fellowship and for the transfer of knowledge. It's not a club in the exclusionary sense...it's open to anybody as long as they behave themselves.

This dude utterly failed the test.

So, again, my comments had nothing to do with you, or with reloading, or with the use of reloads in a class. In my experience reloads are entirely a function of the attention to detail of the person doing it, and lots of people lack the requisite attention to detail to do the job properly...and I've seen plenty of people show up to class with reloaded or remanufactured ammo they got from Sum Dood at a gunshow and then hold up the class as a result. This leads to instructor policies about use of reloaded ammunition. But I have yet to see an instructor inspect anyone's loadout and throw them out over suspicion that they are using reloaded ammo.

It's a caution given for the benefit of people who don't know any better.

I never said you had an issue with reloading. Rather than generate a new post, I created a new paragraph after I discussed an issue with your post, thereby changing the subject.

I find name dropping and telling people to f*** off to be immature. If you want to bring Todd into the discussion then feel free but if he were still here, it wouldn't be allowed on this forum.

23JAZ
07-04-2016, 06:15 PM
While everyone is free to speculate on what Todd would do or would/wouldn't allow if he was still around, I don't have to because I know what he did do which was to pass the reins to me a little over two years ago.

I realize that I'm not going to please everyone and, like most things, I'm OK with that.

You're doing a great job and fuck anyone that says otherwise. There seems to have been an uptick of pansy emotions around here. People need to save that shit for their wives and counsellors. When is the annual PF bitch session anyway? I'm looking forward to seeing how many dandy boys can be pissed off at once. :eek:

GuanoLoco
07-04-2016, 08:21 PM
I reload - a lot, and compete solely with my reloads. I reload 9mm and 223 on a fully automated 1050, other calibers on a 550. My goal is to shoot 40K rounds of 9mm this year and I'm well over half way there. All my 9mm ammo is based on mixed range pickups, brass gets wet cleaned in a cement mixer, carefully QC'd, preprocessed (size, decap, swage, undersize die re-sized) and loaded with Hitek polymer coated bullets. Loaded brass ALL gets case gauged and re-QC'd; any failures go into a practice ammo bucket.

Recently I ran 3600 rounds in 4 days of a class and my sole ammo failure was a case head separation on WIN head stamp brass. I know exactly what my gun(s) like to eat.

I obviously take classes, but I'm simply not going to incur unnecessary costs buying commercial ammo for a class. Franky I see more issues with cheap / bulk commercially reloaded/eloaded ammo than my reloaded ammo. I am a lot more invested and meticulous about reloading than most though.

I understand the challenges of dealing with John Q Public, but I'd also suggest talking to someone before shutting them out of a class based on reloads.

Unobtanium
07-04-2016, 08:50 PM
I shot a course with Wolf 55gr steel-case (VTAC nightfighter). the only failures were because I used a mil-spec rifle spring in my A5 instead of a Sprinco Green or stronger (failure to chamber a round using the bolt-release. Forward assist put to work. NEVER a "life fire" problem. Always reloads using bolt release. Does it brass-cased M193, too. I replaced with a better than mil-spec spring, and issues went away. I had this issue with a Carbine RE and Colt spring, too, FYI. Mil-spec springs are very borderline for chambering the first round out of mags). Other than that, 1500+ rounds suppressed, no issues, ammo shot 2MOA or better and went "bang" each time.
I shot a Frank Proctor course (Performance Pistol) with reloaded 124gr 9mm. Cheapest I could find. Also ran fine, no issues. I had 2 "failures to chamber", which I blame on my high grip and some leather from my Mechanix glove getting in the slide's way.
I think a lot of those instructors have relationships with people like Stan Chen back in the day, and throw business their way. Nothing wrong with that, but I'm not going to pay a premium to someone's buddy just 'cause, when Wolf gets it done.

HCM
07-04-2016, 09:20 PM
I shot a course with Wolf 55gr steel-case (VTAC nightfighter). the only failures were because I used a mil-spec rifle spring in my A5 instead of a Sprinco Green or stronger (failure to chamber a round using the bolt-release. Forward assist put to work. NEVER a "life fire" problem. Always reloads using bolt release. Does it brass-cased M193, too. I replaced with a better than mil-spec spring, and issues went away. I had this issue with a Carbine RE and Colt spring, too, FYI. Mil-spec springs are very borderline for chambering the first round out of mags). Other than that, 1500+ rounds suppressed, no issues, ammo shot 2MOA or better and went "bang" each time.
I shot a Frank Proctor course (Performance Pistol) with reloaded 124gr 9mm. Cheapest I could find. Also ran fine, no issues. I had 2 "failures to chamber", which I blame on my high grip and some leather from my Mechanix glove getting in the slide's way.
I think a lot of those instructors have relationships with people like Stan Chen back in the day, and throw business their way. Nothing wrong with that, but I'm not going to pay a premium to someone's buddy just 'cause, when Wolf gets it done.

Did you try the Wolf before the course and replace your spring or did you discover you needed the green spring during the course?

If the latter, then Wolf did not get it done.

I have no issue with Wolf personally but you need to try it in your gun BEFORE you take 1500 rounds of it to class. IME Wolf runs fine in a carbine gas gun with an actual 5.56 chamber. Other combos may or may not work, regardless, you need to try that out ahead of time and many people don't do that.

Some instructors offered ammo via Asym because in the mid 2000's it was difficult to find brass cased .223/5.56 ammo due to war production. This applied to both individuals and agencies. I recall ammo we ordered at work 9 months in advance for a VTAC class which arrived a year and half after the class. We sourced ammo out of pocket for the class.

Were the pistol reloads your own or commercial reloads ?

Unobtanium
07-05-2016, 02:15 AM
Did you try the Wolf before the course and replace your spring or did you discover you needed the green spring during the course?
I discovered it later. I replaced all my mil-spec springs, as they have always given me trouble. It took hundreds of reloads to determine that this was the problem, so I was unaware of it for sure until that course highlited it. It wasn't an ammo issue in any way, as it does it with brass ammo, too. Wolf had zip to do with it. The TDP/Colt did. I fixed. Problem gone.

If the latter, then Wolf did not get it done.
Neither would M193, as I had issues there, too. It was the springs.

I have no issue with Wolf personally but you need to try it in your gun BEFORE you take 1500 rounds of it to class. IME Wolf runs fine in a carbine gas gun with an actual 5.56 chamber. Other combos may or may not work, regardless, you need to try that out ahead of time and many people don't do that.
Agreed, one should try it. I did. Ran fine. Again, this was because I used mil-spec springs instead of better.

Some instructors offered ammo via Asym because in the mid 2000's it was difficult to find brass cased .223/5.56 ammo due to war production. This applied to both individuals and agencies. I recall ammo we ordered at work 9 months in advance for a VTAC class which arrived a year and half after the class. We sourced ammo out of pocket for the class.

Were the pistol reloads your own or commercial reloads ?

The pistol reloads were commercial, I forgot the name, but they came in plastic bags with a sticker on them that I think had an eagle?

Wolf runs in my 16.1 middy with 0.0735-0.0745 gas port using sprinco green and any a5 buffer including a5h4. It shoots sub 2 moa. Works great.

TCinVA
07-05-2016, 07:36 AM
If you want to bring Todd into the discussion then feel free but if he were still here, it wouldn't be allowed on this forum.

I'd imagine I spent a lot more time discussing the forum and what it should be about with Todd than you did, dude.

Todd was a great guy. He was also not exactly bashful about calling somebody out when they were behaving like a fucking idiot. I witnessed it many times both in person and online. And he often wasn't gentle about it.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?17519-A-7-500-gun-with-feeding-issues-!-!&p=360460#post360460

I had no intention to offend you by calling a dickhead out for what he is, and I certainly have no desire to see a long time member of the forum who has made useful contributions to the site depart because he doesn't like something I said...but that's your call.

Alternately, since I'm no longer a member of staff you can simply put me on ignore and never see another word I write.

SecondsCount
07-05-2016, 10:52 AM
While everyone is free to speculate on what Todd would do or would/wouldn't allow if he was still around, I don't have to because I know what he did do which was to pass the reins to me a little over two years ago.

I realize that I'm not going to please everyone and, like most things, I'm OK with that.

Please don't take what I said as a personal slam against you or the forum. You are correct in that it is now your forum and you can do what you would like with it.

TC decided to bring Todd into the discussion and I was specifically addressing that, not how the forum is currently run.

ST911
07-05-2016, 12:01 PM
Has anyone been in a class, esp an open-enrollment class, in which a student was removed or required to change ammo when theirs wasn't running properly?

GJM
07-05-2016, 12:14 PM
Has anyone been in a class, esp an open-enrollment class, in which a student was removed or required to change ammo when theirs wasn't running properly?


At Rogers, I have seen this, as problems lead to reshoots on the school test, which really gums things up.

SecondsCount
07-05-2016, 12:57 PM
At Rogers, I have seen this, as problems lead to reshoots on the school test, which really gums things up.

I also remember an instance where someone had an issue with factory ammo in a Rogers class.

There were two students in the first AFHF class that I took who had issues with factory ammo.

GJM
07-05-2016, 01:29 PM
I also remember an instance where someone had an issue with factory ammo in a Rogers class.

There were two students in the first AFHF class that I took who had issues with factory ammo.


To be clear, I have seen problems at Rogers with reloads and factory ammo. Both are equally disruptive to the flow of the school test.

If the issue is class flow, I am not sure I get a "no reload" rule, since reloads span the gamut from crap you wouldn't shoot through someone else's pistol to highest quality available. My first trip to Africa I had personally reloaded all our .375 H&H and .416 Remington ammo, and had a friend reload my .460 G&A, tailored to my specific rifle. At a USPSA area match, I bet 95+ percent of shooters are using reloads.

If I was concerned about class flow, I would state up front, that "all students need to show up to class with fully functioning ammo and firearms, and failure to do so may result in any action the instructor deems appropriate, up to expulsion with no refund of tuition." If I was really nice, I would bring along a loaner Glock 19 and BT OWB holster, or Colt 6920 depending upon the class, and have a quantity of proven ammo to feed them, which would be available at a high enough price to discourage their use.

HCM
07-05-2016, 01:41 PM
Has anyone been in a class, esp an open-enrollment class, in which a student was removed or required to change ammo when theirs wasn't running properly?

Yes. In 2014, I attended an op sec training practical fundamentals class. We had two different shooters using two separate lots of freedom munitions reloaded 9 mm experience squibs. After one of the two shooters experienced a second squib they were told they needed to change ammo to continue the class For safety reasons. Luckily the majority of the class was shooting 9 mm. Myself and several other shooters gave them spare ammo so they could finish the class. It was definitely a distraction for the rest of the class.

I attended another local class where a shooters 45 ACP reloads would not run in his Kimber 1911. He was the only 45 shooter in the class so we had to run to academy during the lunch break and buy some Monarch Steelcase to finish the class.

It was a combination handgun/carbine class. Not surprisingly the same shooter's Homebuilt AR would not function either. This is more a matter of not vetting the gun and ammo before training. Unsurprisingly, the guy next to me with the Glock 19, 6920, and Wolf Steelcase 9 mm and 223 had no issues.

olstyn
07-05-2016, 04:00 PM
If I was really nice, I would bring along a loaner Glock 19 and BT OWB holster, or Colt 6920 depending upon the class, and have a quantity of proven ammo to feed them, which would be available at a high enough price to discourage their use.

That seems like an excellent solution to the problem, plus a potential to make some extra money on the side. :)


This is more a matter of not vetting the gun and ammo before training.

In my admittedly under-educated opinion, your statement is the whole issue. If you're running a Bushmaster with Bubba's Backyard Re-Loads™, but it runs, nobody should look at you sideways. Conversely, if you're running a DD/BCM/Colt/other well-regarded brand with shiny new factory ammo and it won't work for some reason, you're a problem. Verifying that your ammo and your gun like each other is the first step to success, regardless of the provenance of any of the items in question. How many rounds it takes to properly vet a gun/ammo combination may be up for debate, but the necessity of the process really shouldn't be.

orionz06
07-05-2016, 06:00 PM
I've seen more dudes soak up more instructor time with XM193 and top brand AR's that worked prior to the class. Rather than turn things into a shit show over what ammo and what guns are used I prefer an improved instructor approach. Instructor makes a point of each issue and uses it as a teaching point. Beyond that the shooters do what they can within the range rules and safety protocols to keep their shit working. It's not a moral victory for some dude to hog all the teachin' time with his SR-15 and XM193 just because it's a "tier 1" gun and factory ammo, it's still a loss for the other 15 (or 26) shooters on the line who also paid (or just showed up) to take the class.

GuanoLoco
07-05-2016, 08:13 PM
Has anyone been in a class, esp an open-enrollment class, in which a student was removed or required to change ammo when theirs wasn't running properly?

I've been to 'open' matches where a competitor was asked to withdraw because of 'unsafe ammo' (multiple squibs) and 'unsafe gun' (doubles).

Unobtanium
07-05-2016, 09:18 PM
I've seen more dudes soak up more instructor time with XM193 and top brand AR's that worked prior to the class. Rather than turn things into a shit show over what ammo and what guns are used I prefer an improved instructor approach. Instructor makes a point of each issue and uses it as a teaching point. Beyond that the shooters do what they can within the range rules and safety protocols to keep their shit working. It's not a moral victory for some dude to hog all the teachin' time with his SR-15 and XM193 just because it's a "tier 1" gun and factory ammo, it's still a loss for the other 15 (or 26) shooters on the line who also paid (or just showed up) to take the class.

This is what I've seen in VTAC classes. Malfunctions are teaching points. I've seen eotech products deadline more class time than ammo or rifles. Then, I've seen Kyle remove optics at random as well, and sneak mags out of pouches, etc. Shit happens in the real world. Kyle Lamb makes a bit of shit happen in his courses, too, and I learned all the more for it.

However, if your weapon and ammo simply won't run. ..well, noone wins. I've not seen that, though.

HCM
07-05-2016, 10:03 PM
This is what I've seen in VTAC classes. Malfunctions are teaching points. I've seen eotech products deadline more class time than ammo or rifles. Then, I've seen Kyle remove optics at random as well, and sneak mags out of pouches, etc. Shit happens in the real world. Kyle Lamb makes a bit of shit happen in his courses, too, and I learned all the more for it.

However, if your weapon and ammo simply won't run. ..well, noone wins. I've not seen that, though.

You'll get no argument out of me regarding Eo-Techs being unreliable.